My 8x12 Shed/Workshop Project

[kristingreen]

That thing is rock solid.......personally, I'd have the 2x6's sliced to 1x6's and continue on, unless you're looking for appearance and parking something bigger than a tank in there......looks great.

So, are you saying that 1-inch thick boards are good enough for the floor? The joists are 24 inches on centre. I was concerned about the flooring 'bouncing' too much.

As for the unsupported half-laps, as per my most recent posts, I'm planning on re-purposing that wood and starting again with 6-inch material and proper notches for the joists.

[Warped]

The wider the stiffer, 6" should be fine. Throw some down and jump up and down...... :D

[Brian_Weekley]

I think you would be better off going with the 6x6 sills.  If you tongue and grooved the 1x boards, it would really help stiffen the floor and you might get by with 16 inch joist spacing--but thicker is always better.

[Ljohnsaw]

So, are you saying that 1-inch thick boards are good enough for the floor? The joists are 24 inches on centre. I was concerned about the flooring 'bouncing' too much.

It also depends on what you are doing or storing in there.  If you are going to use it as a workshop (power tools), do you have a big, heavy table saw?  That would be a constant load that may bow the flooring down over time.  If you are just doing lite woodworking with hand tools, then 24" spacing and 1" flooring would probably do just fine.  In the whole scheme of things, adding a couple more joists shouldn't break the bank and will make for a better, stiffer floor, IMO.

[kristingreen]

Not sure if this warrants it's own thread but since it's related, I'll append it here. I started another thread in regards to my sill to corner post joints but I'm not sure what the protocol here is. Guidance from the moderator is appreciated.

I have 6x6 cedar posts and 2x6 spruce boards. The 6x6 is milled to 5.5" x 5.5" but the 2x6 is actually 2" x 5.5". With the design goal of using what I have readily available, I plan on using the 6x for the posts, sills and plates... and the 2x for the braces.

My question today is about dimensions. For the plate to post joints, I plan on using a shouldered mortise and tenon with a 1.5" tenon, shouldered 0.5" and 2" deep. I don't have 8" or 10" material so I have less to work with. Does anyone see any issues with these dimensions? Will the joints be strong enough?

As a side question, I reduced the length of the tenon on the plate by 0.5" and raised the shoulder on the post. This seems to be purely aesthetic but I see it being done in many projects. Can anyone tell me if there is a good reason for this?

For the braces, I plan on using the 2x6's with 1" thick tenons, shouldered by 0.5" and 2" deep. This leaves only 1" of material between the mortise and the outside of the post. Is this enough?

I've attached a scan of my chicken scratch below. Hopefully someone can figure it out. ;-)

[Brian_Weekley]

Your tenons are too short with not enough relish beyond the hole--they will break.  Make the tenon on that tie beam a "through tenon"--go all the way through the post.

[kristingreen]

Your tenons are too short with not enough relish beyond the hole--they will break.  Make the tenon on that tie beam a "through tenon"--go all the way through the post.

Good idea! I never considered it before but that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

What about the braces? I was afraid of weakening the post if I went deeper.

[LaneC]

   Just started reading and good job. If I may make a suggestion, as pineywoods stated about termites, They make a piece of sheet metal that goes over the cinder blocks for a termite and bug preventer. They were cheap the last time I saw them, and in the future they may provide the insurance of no termites. They just sit on top of the cinder block, and stick out a small bit so the bugs cannot crawl and get to the wood. That is a nice project there and I wish you great success.

[Jim_Rogers]

A standard brace tenon is 3" long; from the shoulder.

Jim Rogers

[kristingreen]

I recognize that standard braces are 3" from the shoulder but I was hoping that I might be able to go a bit smaller given the reduced size of the timbers. If my posts are only 5.5" that only leaves 2.75" until I've reached centre. With a 0.5" shoulder, my tenons will only be 2.25" and can not be deeper since the wall posts will have braces on both sides.

I guess what I'm looking for is a consensus of whether or not traditional joinery is possible with 6x6 posts and 2x6 braces. If 2.25" tenons on my braces isn't going to create a strong enough joint, then I'll consider using screws instead of pegs... or abandon the M&T joint altogether and go with something else, like sort of a half lap with screws.

[Jim_Rogers]

To avoid tenon conflict in a post the two braces should be at different elevations.
Plates should sit higher then the tie beams.
If you can't do that make shorter braces so that the tenons won't touch inside the post.

Jim Rogers

[kristingreen]

Went out last weekend with the intension of using the 2x6's for the floor. This is a picture of me trying to come to terms with fact that rough cut lumber isn't all the same width... and how do you make a floor with lumber that is never as long as your floor but could be different widths? And no, I don't own a thickness planer. That would have solved the issue but they are expensive.

I had the idea of using my block plane to plane the edges of each board but the work load was huge. Looks like I'm going to have to visit the lumber yard for some dimensional lumber that is relatively guaranteed to be the same thickness... or at least as long as my floor.

[kristingreen]

The floor is done. Thirteen 2x8's later, it's done. Quick and simple. Next will be the sills and then I'll raise the frame. I'm going to use those rough cut 2x6's for the sills... since they'll be sitting on top of the floor and there is already a 4x4 frame underneath the floor, the sills will be just enough to hold the stub tenons of the posts.

My father in-law is never far from hand when there is a project to work on. It is his property, after all. I can't say no.


The finished floor with my 6x6 posts stacked on the left and my stock of 2x6's on the right. I put tarps over everything before I left.

[Justin Bailey]

I used 2.75" deep tenons in my frame, but they were 4x6 braces, more wood width there than using 2x6 for shoulders on the tenons, but, in your case you could plant them flush into the outsides of the 6x6 posts, with a dovetailed shaped lap tenon. I know Jim just said earlier that 3" is standard, but I see pictures of braces directly opposite each other off of a post all the time, with certainly some kind of through mortise there. IDK. That is what I did is all. I would rather weaken the center of a post than only one side, given a size of mortise width. Someone on here said they would use 1.25 thick mortises for 6x6 material to weaken the post even less. On the outside posts of my frame, where there is only one brace, I still used 2.75 deep mortising and also 1.75 thickness; all the other ones that have through mortises for bracing on each side I used 1.5 thickness mortising. Your building posts are not that tall, neither are mine. It's not like there is another story above, only the roof. I am thinking like with an ant, certain things may work in a small model, not intended to work at an infinite scale, like as with ant legs/body ratio. You can't have a 100 ft or even a 1ft long ant stand on the same proportion legs that a 1/4" long ant has. _earmuff

[Justin Bailey]

On the other hand, I have only begun my first timber frame, and maybe I am wrong to borrow general furniture 1/3 thickness or less rule for tenons and mortises used to make furniture. I may get away with it in my case, but I guess it eventually pose dangers under building demand, as you get to a certain size. This can't be sized up infinitely maybe is all I am saying. It's not like a building inspector will approve or deny you application in your case with a building that small, are they. Sometimes people over engineer things, like 6x6 corners you have are plenty big so you can get away with whatever size tenon you want (within reason), I'd say.

[Justin Bailey]

Additionally and more important though, is as Jim states in the general guidelines, not to weaken any member more than necessary to create a joint.

[kristingreen]

... in your case you could plant them flush into the outsides of the 6x6 posts

You just hit the nail on the head... or the peg on the end... whatever. I've decided to lap the tenons flush with the reference face of the posts. I'll probably shave 0.5 inch off the back side of the brace on each end to make the tenons and then cut a 6-inch wide by 1.5 inch deep 'dado' across the front of the post. This should retain the strength of both pieces while providing the necessary rigidity of the structure.

I just have to design the frame... again... and then get my cut list together so I can go out and start cutting up those 6x6 posts.

[Justin Bailey]

 

    

  I searched for some examples of what I meant, I guess there is a lot of variations. You need a bearing surface and shoulder, that resists the acute collapse of the joint, but some go a step further, to provide a dove tailed, resistance to being pulled apart against obtuse forcing of the plate/post. I don't know how else to say it.

[kristingreen]

I'm working on a new plan that uses double girts, half-lapped for bracing instead of cross braces. I got this idea from a fine homebuilding video for a shed of similar size. They used 4x4 studs and girts, with 4x6 corner posts. They half-lapped all the joints and in doing so created a very rigid frame.

In my design, I'm planning on using my 6x6 cedar for the posts and plates... and my 2x6 boards for the girts. I'll still do through-mortices on the cross plates with a half-inch shoulder. I will cut into the 6x6 posts but I won't cut into the 2x6 girts. The end result will be girts that sit flush to the outside face of the frame. You can see how this looks from the end of the girt by looking at the corner posts in the diagrams below.

Feedback and comments are always welcome.