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ADVICE NEEDED: disassembling and rebuilding an antique timber frame

Started by Circa1820, March 02, 2020, 08:53:07 PM

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Circa1820

Apologies in advance for the length.  Please keep reading!

I was hoping to get the forum's thoughts on dismantling and rebuilding a 16' x 30' timber frame barn attached to my 19th century house.  I preface all of this by saying that, although I'm a skilled DIYer who has worked extensively on two antique homes and two antique barns, I've never taken on a project of this scale (essentially taking down a structure, salvaging all useable materials, and rebuilding the structure).  That said, I'm motivated and willing to spend the time necessary to complete the project.  The only questions are how long it will take, and how much will it cost.

As I said, the structure is a 16' x 30' timber frame barn.  Pictures here:

Offsite photo link deleted by Admin. (refer to photo posting rules at bottom of every page)

It had 4 bents / 3 bays, a full first floor, and half second floor.  The structure is a mixture of hand-hewn and sawn timbers of varying species (pine, oak and hemlock).  The structure was either constructed elsewhere on my property and attached to the house sometime after the house was built (the shingled gable end of the house still appears from inside the barn); or it was assembled using reclaimed timbers from an older structure sometime after the house was built.  Either way, it is attached to the house through the roof sheathing, but not by any mechanical fasteners as far as I can tell.  The barn essentially sits at grade on the remnants of an old stone foundation.  The sills are largely rotted, and the ground floor structure has failed in numerous places.  At least two post feet require repair.  The remaining structure is sound, although two of the tying joints have begun to separate probably due to the sill issues and the lack of any collar ties.  Some of the ridge joints have also started to pull apart.  It has a clapboard exterior and an unfinished interior.  It has some electrical, but no plumbing.

My house is a historic property subject to a strict conservation easement, which requires that the barn be restored.  (That said, even if there was no easement, I'd restore the barn anyway.)  The easement does allow the structure to be dismantled provided it is rebuilt as is.  My initial plan was to restore the barn in place by lifting it, having the necessary sill and post repairs done, having a new foundation poured, and putting it back down.  To that end, I had two experienced timber framers come look at the barn.  Both agreed that the barn was salvageable and that it could be repaired in place.  I received a $15,000 quote to lift the barn and put it back down, and a $5,000-$7,000 quote to complete the necessary timber repairs and correct some of the tying joint issues.  Both of those quotes would require me to do some work – basically strip off claps and sheathing to allow the structure to be lifted and manipulated.  This work may also require me to strip all or parts of the roof (to fix rafter spread and generally make the barn more square).

My latest thinking, however, is to deconstruct the barn completely and rebuild it on poured foundation and a new, stick-framed deck.  For starters, I have another detached 60' x 40' barn that I could store the timbers in (and make necessary repairs) while the foundation is poured, etc.  And I would, of course, diagram and appropriately label all of the posts, beams, plates, joists, etc.  Doing it this way would allow me to avoid the costs associated with lifting the building (~$15k) and repairing the sills (~$5k), since I'd be placing the posts on a newly framed deck.  And, in the end, I think it would result in a much cleaner, all around better finished product.  Of course, it would take considerably more time and labor on my part.  That is where the majority of my questions lie.

My plan is to start dismantling the barn in late March or early April 2021 (a year from now), and have it reassembled and mostly whether tight (by no means finished – just protected from the elements with a roof, wrap, trim and windows) by late November.  I work full time, so this would be something I'd do at night after work, on the weekends, or during my vacation time.  I would mostly be working alone or with my wife, and with other friends and family as necessary to disassemble and reassemble.  I'd likely rent a lift of some sort during disassembly and reassembly, particularly in order to lift the plates, which run the entire length of the building. Although I've never completed a project of this scale, I am experienced with home renovations.  I've done complete kitchens and bathrooms, and countless other projects myself, in my spare time, with very little help.  I'm comfortable with most hand / power tools, climbing on roofs, etc.  I've consumed just about every resource I can find regarding timber frames.

I'd welcome any thoughts by those with experience in this area.  I recognize that there are a number of unknowns with this sort of project, so all anyone can give me is a best estimate.  Still, I'd be interested in hearing your reaction.  Is my timeline reasonable?  Is this too big an undertaking for a DIYer?  Given what I've written above, are the frame repairs likely to be too extensive?  Am I likely to experience any actual cost savings over having the building lifted, etc?  Any and all thoughts welcome.

Thanks again for reading!

Jason

Carpenter

I would not want to disassemble that barn just for the repairs that you are talking about, only to reassemble it in the same location and configuration.  In my humble opinion you'd be way better off to spend the $15,000, if you actually need to have it lifted.  
     It is sometimes possible to support the structure in place and do a foundation (and sill) repair.  That being said, it is much easier to do the foundation work with the building lifted.

A good crew of 4 or 5 with a telehandler, if they weren't trying to save the siding, or the roof sheeting etc. just the frame could have that frame down in about 4 days.  (I'm basing that off of a barn that one of our crews took down last year that we restored and reconfigured in the shop and then re-raised in a different location.  But, if you're trying to save the siding or any thing else, it will go much slower.  And, if the siding is at all brittle (which it will be) you might not get a very good recovery rate.  So, if you do disassemble it, you'll not only have the added time to disassemble, and reassemble, count on added material as well.


Don P

I agree, I suspect it will cost well more to dismantle and reassemble. I'd support/lift it. Remove the main floor, excavate and build foundation and floor system as you describe, lose the sills and original floor system, leave all else in place. Pull the ties back together and steel tie rod that if necessary while lifting a structural ridgebeam into place and supporting it with midspan posts that run from under the ridge to footings at each bent. It looks like the upper kneewall is in distress so the lifting pulling in needs to be coordinated to not break the existing posts, lift the ridge and cinch the ties in stages and in unison.

To speak plainly, you may be realistic but I've found most people do not actually know themselves or their capabilities well at all.

Circa1820

Thanks for the reply, Carpenter. The clapboards are beyond their useful life and will need to be replaced. The roof will need to be replaced in a handful of years, so not a big loss to have to strip that a year or two early. I'm hoping to save as much of the sheathing as possible, but understand that some of it may be lost due to excessive nailing. 

The contractors who looked at the building suggested that it be lifted. It basically sits in the ground, making repairs and foundation work difficult or even impossible without lifting. 

Al_Smith

You could jack it up with enough blocking,railroad ties ,steel I beams and a dozen or two  hydraulics jacks plus a knowledge of rigging .You aren't going to do it with pry bars for sure
We moved a post and beam machinery shed that was 18' by 24' down an 18 foot wide country road about 3 miles .On a long machinery trailer pulled with a John-Deere model 720 gasser .We had people blocking the intersections .I was following in my pick up truck  with a bunch of log chains,two chainsaws and 5 gallons of kerosene .If it fell off the only thing we could do  is drag it off the road and set fire to it .
Funny thing was on little hills that old JD would open the governor and every time that big  two cylinder engine fired the vibrations amplified through the building and caused the loose planking to slap in time with the engine .That was about 35 years ago .

Tom King

Go to the "Structural" page on my website, and scroll down to the bottom of the page to see a 1798 house, that was collapsing on the back, to see how we set it on angled legs which allow enough room to completely rebuild the foundation, and then take the legs off.

20 ton hydraulic jacks are cheap.  I think we used about 24 for that job, but we had to jack up the middle of that house at the same time.

The provider for HistoricHousePreservation has been having some trouble lately, so if the link below doesn't work, change the first part to Historic-House-Restoration.  It's the same site.

No need to ask me how much it costs to get anything done.  We do something different every day.  If we did the same thing a second time, I might have a better idea, but so far, it hasn't happened.

Circa1820

Thanks for the comments, everyone.  Another method of lifting that I've seen is by bolting a heavy-duty L bracket to the outside of each post, placing a short span of timber (1-2 feet) under each bracket, and then lifting at each bracket with a hydraulic lift.  We really need to raise the grade of the building about 18 inches; and, in all likelihood, it would need to go even higher than that during the restoration phase in order to then be placed on the new foundation.  I'm not sure a series of ordinary 20-ton hydraulic lifts can lift the building the 3-4 ft necessary to make all this happen.

The other issue is that the foundation that's there is not salvageable -- at least not without a huge amount of excavation and restoration.   In many places, the building rests directly on the soil, meaning it's not clear to me how much of a foundation is there at all.  In my view, whatever foundation is there will need to be removed to make way for proper footings and frost walls.  I've been told by two contractors that the building will need to be lifted high enough -- 4 ft at least - to allow that work to be performed.  Long story short: I think the building needs a new foundation, and would need to be lifted by a professional to make that happen.

For those who think it might be more costly to disassemble and rebuild, can you explain your view a bit more?  From my perspective, taking it down and rebuilding would save me $15k to lift and another $7k in repair work.  Whether it's lifted or taken down, the roof and the claps need to be replaced, so that's a wash.    The only increased cost I'm likely to see by taking it down is in wood for repair work -- some 8" timbers and some 1" rough sawn sheathing (I expect I'll lost some during deconstruction), both of which are fairly cheap.  And obviously my labor would increase substantially.

But in terms of tangible costs, is there something I'm missing?


Al_Smith

Well now it makes all the difference in the world of weather you do it yourself or hire it done .I'm a DYI guy myself so all bets are off it's hired because I wouldn't have a clue what it might cost .

Jim_Rogers

Could you finish filling out your profile so we know where you are at?

Thanks
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Circa1820

Profile updated.  I'm in NH.  I also posted some pictures of the barn to my profile.

Don P

I would only lift it enough to get the ridge where you want it plus maybe 1/2". Remove the floor system and sills.
Dig and pour footings.
Form and pour walls.
Build floor system
Set it down onto floor.

The labor to deconstruct is considerable. The losses are high, generally I've found at that point I would rather rebuild in kind with new uncompromised materials, the old stuff is deflected, damaged and you will find stuff you don't want to reuse. I don't replicate an error, the only thing worse than making a mistake is copying one. Your rafters and joists are likely junk at this point, run a string along them to see, the posts are bowed out at the top and likely you'll find cracks around the tie mortise, those tenons are likely blown. When it is down where you can make the call it is hard to reuse, if it is in situ being repaired it is easier to leave it lay. You'll lose the second floor. More than a few times I've gotten a building on the ground and decided not to rebuild it with the materials I just took down. And that might not be a bad thing here, it is sacred history only in our minds, the original builders didn't have that notion in mind. Your call, I've been there more than once.

Jim_Rogers

If you have to remove the clapboards and other sheathing for future replacement, you can properly inspect the timbers and all those joints, just mentioned. And after inspecting them make the decision about lifting or taking down.

If you decided to take it down, you'll need to prepare an accurate drawing of the building. This drawing is then used to label all the timbers so that they can be put back in place after the repairs are done.

The timber framers guild taught a class on how to do this exact thing. That is measure the frame to create the drawing. And then label the frame and drawing at the same time. I attended this workshop.

In a few weeks, there is going to be a Old house and barn expo in Manchester, NH. I will be there both days, if you wish to stop by and talk about your project. And see all the other things being shown.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Al_Smith

My good friend did as has been mentioned taken pictures,numbered every piece of wood for reassembly  .I turned a piece of steel to make a driver to knock the pins out so it didn't damage the ends on my lathe .It must have taken him a month to dissemble a post and beam"fancy barn" made to keep driving horses and buggies in .Like what we call a garage today .We have one like that  at the old farm house I grew up in which was built in 1919 and the barn is older than that .Poor old Denny came down sick and never got the barn reerected----agent orange RIP .

Tom King

Bottle jacks will work fine.  You just have to use cribbing to carry the load.  You jump it up 5 or 6 inches at the time. It really doesn't take that long.  A few hundred dollars worth of jacks, and 4x6's to cut up for cribbing will take care of it.  That's what we did on the back of that 1798 house.

That house also has to have a complete foundation rebuilt under it.  That's why the legs it's on now slant to the outside, and sit on 6x6's outside where the new basement foundation needs to be.

Knocking pegs out, and reassembling is not too bad, but there is a Lot of lifting, handling, and many footsteps involved.  A telehandler, and lots of help saves most of the work, but without those, there's a lot more work to it.  The parts are probably already marked where they go.

ALaff

Circa1820....Any updates on your project; I'd be interested tp know what you figured out since I have s similar barn project in NH I will be doing myself.

Don P

Hey ALaff, Welcome,
It doesn't look like he has logged on in a year.
Have you got any pictures of what you're doing?

ALaff


Don P

Well, I start at the bottom, assess the foundation, is it sound or does it need work or replacement? I usually shoot a laser or transit around to see where it is level and plumb, or rather where things have dropped or leaned.

Sill condition?

Work your way up, what is causing the sag in the ridge.

Interesting roof framing, do all the "trusses" look like that?

Bottom pic, looks like the floor is dropping at that post? It also looks like some type of rod top right of that pic?

ALaff

Almost all of the support posts are rotted underneath; there is not real sill to speak of.  
Every bent is broken in some fashion, most on the ends, a lot of the oak bracing has been removed also.    The cross bracing (2x10s)in the pic were added about 15 years ago or so and really may be the significant reason why it has not moved further.  There really is no option other than to take it down or spend a lot more money than its worth to try to restore.  My plan to dismantle was something like this; remove interior 2nd floor board, stalls etc...strip off the exterior barn board, working away from the leaning side until only the roof and the timber frame is left, use a piece of equipment (excavator) to pull/push it over, strip off the asphalt shingles and roof boards, salvage anything left.  I have put it out to local contractors with little interest or some just throw BS offers at it.  Just not sure if this is too much for a 1st time barn demo to take on.

Jeff

Do a marathon viewing of Barnwood builders. More barn deconstruction on that show than you will see anywhere 
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

ALaff

Ya I have watched a few of those...they make it look so easy; and they are all done in an hour!  I'm short about 5 experienced barn guys and the funds that come from a tv show...maybe we'll do a show of our own ;-)

Jeff

What I would refer to in the shows, are the portions where they talk about and point out the dangers, often.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Don P

There was a barn just down the road. The new owner stripped the siding off of it. I kept driving by thinking I must not be seeing the bracing he was installing as he worked. The roof was still intact and looking mighty top heavy. Then on my way to work the JD was chained to one end but it had collapsed in the other direction. It had obviously started to go and he tried to hold it with way too light an anchor. If you don't have a very good understanding of the forces at work taking down an old building is a good way to get smushed. I usually take them apart the opposite of the way they were built, remove the roof first. A Lull with a big work basket is about the safest way. If the little voice starts talking, listen up, get the excavator and put it on the ground. A few bucks of barnwood isn't worth getting hurt over.

ALaff


Al_Smith

On those  rotted posts what I did on the little barn where I grew up was jack them up and block them. Cut them off with a chainsaw and replaced that portion with cut off rail road ties .Using four pieces of plate steel to bolt them back together . It will probably last another 100 years .There might have been 3 or 4 posts that needed attention .It wasn't that bad .

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