Damaged slick question

Dan_Shade · February 27, 2021, 08:38:19 AM

I bought a slick from an Ebay seller that has a corner bent.

Is this repairable.

Jim_Rogers · February 27, 2021, 09:49:58 AM

I don't think you should heat it up at all.
I would just keep flattening the back side until you sharpen it past the bend.
But I'll check with my partner in the tool business and see what he says, and get back to you.

Jim Rogers

mike_belben · February 27, 2021, 10:30:05 AM

Flatbed belt sander.

DonW · February 27, 2021, 11:19:49 AM

I would try first peening it against end grain on a wood block without heat and see how it reacts, taking it slow but with adequate force. Then doing your routine lapping process. Trying to grind that much out will cost you dearly in effort and good steel. But before that test the steel. Maybe it has lost temper and this is why the deformation has occurred.

Dan_Shade · February 27, 2021, 11:44:24 AM

Thanks, I'll check the hardness.

It would remove a lot of material to grind it flat

Brad_bb · February 27, 2021, 11:52:57 AM

Never overheat chisel, or plane irons or any edge tool with a belt sander or grinder or stone wheel. Always keep it cool with water and do a little at a time so you don't impart too much heat. Too much heat will alter the hardness.

Tom King · February 28, 2021, 10:53:06 AM

Send it to a good Blacksmith. By good, I mean one with lots of experience, and not someone who just took up knifemaking. There are several who have retired from a career in Colonial Williamsburg, and have their own shops now.

Needs to be someone who understands, and is good at heat treating. It will need to be re-tempered after reshaping.

DonW · February 28, 2021, 11:54:47 AM

Quote from: Tom King on February 28, 2021, 10:53:06 AM
Send it to a good Blacksmith.

An important qualification and the limitation of the advise to go this route.
Not only must the smith be competent, having a knowledge of steels used in any given piece, but because such a smith would be in high demand, in order for him, (name me one good woman blacksmith, please), to take on such work he would also have to be a good friend. If such conditions could be met than this is prudent advise. And be ready to pay a minimum of a hundred dollars.

Dan_Shade · February 28, 2021, 01:58:42 PM

I may put it in a press to see if I can straighten it.

I have about $80 tied up in this. It's not worth it (I don't think) to spend another $100 on having it repaired.

If I can't fix it myself, it'll be "expensive" shop decoration that annoys me when I look at it.

DonW · February 28, 2021, 08:58:39 PM

Remember that the deformation is a displacement, the material has been stretched in one place and bulked up elsewhere. Straightening will mean reversing that condition. Pressing, in a vice for example, will do nothing to address the displacement and you can expect some rebound, an indication of the new "balance" created by the bend. If you do try pressing as opposed to peening then I would concentrate the force at a single point using something like a C clamp on a bench top and maybe use shims to create a counter force. A risk in this approach is that if this blade is laminated you will create "friction" at the lamination and it could separate. And in this case either approach means a test of the quality of the original forge work.

kantuckid · March 01, 2021, 09:12:27 AM

IMO, the fact that it is bent is instructive?
If it was, in fact brittle, hard steel it simply would not have bent as it did to begin with. Were it mine I'd go for a few good licks with it sitting on a hard oak stump end with a nice flat surface spot.

cib · March 06, 2021, 07:32:34 PM

You have a few options.
1. You can cold forge it, bend it back in a vice or something similar. You can bend with light taps from a softer faced hammer. (these two options have risks of cracking as the steel may not bend back.
2. Is have a blacksmith do this for you. They can heat it up properly and then flatten. This will require them to heat treat it again but that should be a simple task. The problem is this will not be a cheap option unless you know someone that does this. I tend to agree find a proper blacksmith. I'm a blacksmith/bladesmith and while I don't mean to disparage people there are a lot who got into this due to forged in fire and their experience in restoration is limited at best.

Don P · March 06, 2021, 09:46:15 PM

You don't have much in it and its broke now... you can't hurt it.
If you're willing to risk it cold I'd work it hot, anneal it and retemper it, it'll either work or its done and I think your chances are better.

DonW · March 06, 2021, 10:30:02 PM

Going the route of the smith depends a lot on your inclinations but it can open new doors with some effort and persistence and such effort is not unrelated to what may be your primary interest in woodworking. The blacksmith and woodworker have always worked in a kind of collaboration -each giving the other due respect.
At a certain point after some years searching I got acquainted with the right smith on an occasion not so different from yours, a favorite tool needing repair. From there the working relationship developed into years of collaboration and extended contacts both within and out of my field until today and has had a major impact on the nature of my work.

CJ · March 07, 2021, 08:49:14 AM

For what it's worth, there are a lot of different suggestions here, but none professional. Nobody here deals in steel and forging, so depending on where you're situated, if you could find a machine shop and bring it there to get some advice on how to go about getting this bend out of it; at the same time, put a new straight sharpened edge on it. It's probably easier to locate a machinist as opposed to a blacksmith.
You've spent money on a tool for a reason. If you have to spend a few more bucks on it to get it back to original condition, then so be it. You will have a tool for life...AND, more than likely you will be able to get your money back if and when you sell it. JMO.

DonW · March 07, 2021, 10:15:28 AM

Quote from: CJ on March 07, 2021, 08:49:14 AM
For what it's worth, there are a lot of different suggestions here, but none professional.

This is about an edge tool not a piece of machinery and about an appropriate remedy.
The crux of the matter is not the bend but the tempering and how best to maintain it. A straight blade that will not hold its edge is not much use.

CJ · March 08, 2021, 09:13:00 AM

Hi Don, I'm not trying to kick dirt on any reputations here and with all due respect, I realize that it is a tool, not a piece of equipment and it has to do with both slick issues (temper and straightening it).
Machine shops are professionals and deal with all facets of steel on a daily basis. They could provide the necessary information about the 'tempering' of the steel and how to rectify the situation. They have all the modern technology that are at their disposal to right the issue with the slick. In no way, shape or form would a machine shop ruin a tool, and would certainly determine whether or not that they could fix the dilemma.
Anyhow, I am merely here to provided free advice and let those who put the question forth decide in what direction they want to proceed.

mike_belben · March 10, 2021, 04:30:40 PM

well. now that its gotten super complicated. i was a machinist. short of sending the thing to a lab all you're gonna have at a machine shop is a grind/spark test to figure what steel it is.. be it oil hardening, water hardening etc.. and a rockwell tester to figure out the present hardness. not that its steel is the best choice or that its hardness was either because look at it. it is what it is and what it is .. is presently junk. so why worry so much? if it was worthy of such lavish attention it wouldn't be wallered out.

I'm with donP.. if its broke, fix it.. your risk of making it broker is low. get out the oxy torch and either the infrared thermometer or melty temp crayon and anneal it best you can.. ding ding ding it flat, quench it in some old detroit oil, grind it, stone it and get on with it already. if its too soft to hold a good edge, try heat treating it again with a heavy carburizing flame and more jet black, carbon-filled old detroit oil. just another day in a shop, no voodoo or advanced degrees involved.

DonW · March 10, 2021, 06:04:55 PM

A perfect illustration of what I've posted.

Quote from: mike_belben on March 10, 2021, 04:30:40 PM
well. now that its gotten super complicated. i was a machinist. short of sending the thing to a lab all you're gonna have at a machine shop is a grind/spark test to figure what steel it is.. be it oil hardening, water hardening etc.. and a rockwell tester to figure out the present hardness. not that its steel is the best choice or that its hardness was either because look at it. it is what it is and what it is .. is presently junk. so why worry so much? if it was worthy of such lavish attention it wouldn't be wallered out.

I'm with donP.. if its broke, fix it.. your risk of making it broker is low. get out the oxy torch and either the infrared thermometer or melty temp crayon and anneal it best you can.. ding ding ding it flat, quench it in some old detroit oil, grind it, stone it and get on with it already. if its too soft to hold a good edge, try heat treating it again with a heavy carburizing flame and more jet black, carbon-filled old detroit oil. just another day in a shop, no voodoo or advanced degrees involved.

You'll remember my recommendation originally was to give it to the old whack job, but then with a bit of understanding at the outset for a greater chance of success. This torching business has in the low to nil range of that I'd say. In fact there is plenty voodoo to it.

Old Greenhorn · March 10, 2021, 07:16:44 PM

Well I have been reading this thread since it started and hoping somebody with hands on experience would give a definitive answer better than I could. I have made many edged tools from scratch with tool steel including applying the heat treat and temper. But it has been a long time. Various parts of a tool such as this should have various hardness's. What that means is the core area should be stiff, even soft but not brittle, the edge should be hard, but no so hard that it can't be sharpened with a stone. It should also not be brittle so as to chip. It is a complicated process.
The proper process is to bring the working end of the tool to full anneal. This will make it as soft as new stock. Then you can hammer out that bump and get it flat to the eye and feel (you will need to make a simple jig like a shaped dolly to deal with the chisel point and not make it worse). The tool can also be rough sharpened at the point just to get the edge straight and true. Then the tool needs to be re-heat treated to about at least 48-52 hardness on the Rockwell C scale 55 is better. Then the edge needs to be tempered back to about 42-45 Rockwell C which is best done by heating (EVENLY) the working edge area and bringing it to about the color of straw IF it is Air Hardening Tool steel. If it is Oil Hardening I don't recall the anneal coloring and I no longer have the reference books. Knowing the types of steel is key to knowing the heat temps and quenching medium as well as the tempering ranges. Also, the final grinding and sharpening can be done.
If it were mine I would try it after I looked up and old buddy and had him do a spectrometer material analysis. (Most scrap yards these days have those gizmos now but just use it for basic material id, you need to have the material comp spec to identify the exact alloy. I would give myself about a 75% chance of pulling it off.
That's the process anyway.

Tom King · March 10, 2021, 08:54:38 PM

If we were to bet on type of steel, my bet would be on W1.

W1 Tool Steel - Water-Hardening Tool Steel (UNS T72301)

DonW · March 10, 2021, 09:43:32 PM

Just a simple point, reflecting my simple understanding of the matter, but were one to heat this blade to the degree of being able to reverse the bend the thin cutting edge would become so over heated that the carbon would be burnt away making it unsharpenable. So at the the very least that edge would have to be ground back to get at some workable meat.

Dan_Shade · March 21, 2021, 04:00:51 PM

I tried running a file over the metal today, it's definitely not hardened. The file easily makes shavings on every edge.

DonW · March 21, 2021, 07:31:21 PM

Not only the obvious damage but the material is deficient as well. (I would make use of one of those cartoon figures except I am illiterate in that language). Then it would be not far-fetched to make a conclusion, the loss of temper predates the deformation. Maybe you could even go so far to say because the blade had no temper the one (ab)using it saw no problem in further destroying it. I'd say till now the tool has two strikes, so there is still hope.