Second floor bathroom question

[BigJim2185]

Guys - first off, thank you for an informative forum.  I am in the planning phase of a DIY timber frame build that I plan to complete over the next ~5 years.  I'm a beginner, so bear with me.

I'm wondering what you guys have done for flooring systems under second floor bathrooms.  I have maple to work with for floors, and was planning to go with 2x6 T&G decking until I started trying to figure my plumbing.  I would like to have pocketed joists and a T&G ceiling visible on the first floor.  The only thing coming to mind is to go with a thinner T&G under the bathroom, then stick frame a raised floor under this room to run plumbing.

Question 1: is this a viable solution?

Question 2: It would mean a step up into the bathroom (not the end of the world...you're already upstairs anyway), which I would like to avoid if I could. Any way to avoid this other than doing the same flooring system for the entire upstairs? 

Thanks for the help guys.  Feel free to yell at me for having no idea what I'm doing.       

[shinnlinger]

I simply prepainted my PVC plumbing black and bought some solid hangers.  Quick, Cheap and easy.  I figured a dropped area would draw more attention than simply showing my pipes.   If you wanted to spring for cast or copper, all the better.

Dave

[Brian_Weekley]

I simply prepainted my PVC plumbing black and bought some solid hangers.  Quick, Cheap and easy.  I figured a dropped area would draw more attention than simply showing my pipes.   If you wanted to spring for cast or copper all the better.

Dave, that's a neat idea.  Maybe even use some of that hammered paint to give the PVC a cast iron look.  I like the industrial look where you can see hanging pipes and round ductwork.

[shinnlinger]

My logic was your showing the bones of your house with a timber frame, why not keep that theme going?

[Roger Nair]

Hey Jim

My general approach with plumbing and mechanical systems, is to stack first floor bathrooms and powder rooms under the upper floor bathrooms as much as possible.  I also try to work the kitchens wet wall back to back with a bathroom.  I look to have mechanical core where  services work off of common stacks and chases.  So if you stack the bathrooms, then you can have a ceiling drop for hiding the works without blemish to the look of important downstairs rooms.  Also when designing the frame, be aware of beam work that can intersect with pipes, stacks and ducts.

[BigJim2185]

Thanks for the input guys. 

Dave - your frame looks great, and my wife says she likes exposed plumbing, so that is a possibility I hadn't considered. 

Roger - Stacking the bathrooms is tough with my current floor plan. I have the upstairs bath located over the kitchen, and can run the waste pipe down through a floor to ceiling pantry if I can get it to the right spot before it comes through the floor.  Switching the bath with a neighboring bedroom would stack my bathrooms, but it would mean adding a north facing dormer so I could have bedroom windows.  I like the idea of no north facing windows upstairs, as the house is very exposed and we get some cold winter winds.  I don't want a dropped ceiling in the kitchen below the bath, but I think I might be able to do the opposite and raise the floor in the bathroom, or part of it (vanity abutting a step on one level, toilet and tub/shower up a step).

To calculate how much I would need to raise the floor, would I be correct in using 4" soil pipe pitched at 1/4" per foot for the toilet? 2" at same pitch for shower? 

 

[thecfarm]

BigJim2185,welcome to the froum. Central Maine? Can't be too far from me.

[BigJim2185]

Thanks for the welcome.  I'm in Abbot - looks like about 70 miles north/north east of you.  Nice equipment list in your signature.  We also have the New Holland TC40, and the 20hp Thomas mill is at the top of the list right now as my first investment toward this project (other than frame plans).  How does the New Holland work for you?  What is your system for loading logs the FEL can't handle?

[bigshow]

Do your timber joists simply for looks.  I did a 'thin floor' application in my house.  Its NOISEY.  Put floor trusses on top of your timber joists and open up possibilities for electrical, plumbing, HVAC, central vac, future proofing conduit (Audio/Video, home automation, network, etc) and SOUND DEADENING.

Having built and lived in a timberframe with a thin floor application (no engineered floor joist/trusses on top of timber joists), I would question the sanity and sincerity of anyone recommending otherwise.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm going to drop my ceilings and add layers of rockwool and drywall to kill the noise from floor to floor on the lower level - effectively covering up most of my timber joists :(

Our bedroom is above my kids' bedrooms.  Its hard to sleep when you hear every breath they take and every tiny noise.

take a lesson from someone that did it, and lives in it.

[BigJim2185]

Good point.  I'll add a foot to the knee-wall to maintain head room and put down 3/4" or 1" T&G with floor trusses over it. Thanks for the input!

[thecfarm]

I can pick up a hemlock 16 feet long pretty easy. Hemlock weights more than white pine.Tell you the truth I really don't know how big across. Must of 18 inches. With any manual mill you start turning logs 18"-2 feet,it's a job. You will like the Thomas. They have a nice clap board option now too. They might have a open house coming up too.

[BigJim2185]

Cfarm - That's encouraging.  My widest bay is 16'. 

Bigshow - Is there a big advantage using floor trusses vs. 2X12 stick frame (assuming I mill lumber)?  It looks like it would be easier to run wiring/plumbing/etc.  Is there a carrying capacity advantage or anything else?

[shinnlinger]

check out my gallery if you want to see how I isolated the 2nd floor

[Holmes]

PVC , ABS , plumbing is noisy pipe.  Nothing like sitting down to eat and hearing the rushing water of a flushed toilet overhead and the plop plop that goes along with it.     Even if you put the pipes in the wall and drop the ceiling you will hear the water draining thru plastic pipe.   Wrapping the pipe with bitch-ethane [ self adhesive rubber ] roofing will help a lot in sound deadening.

[BigJim2185]

Was planning to wrap the pipe in fiberglass insulation wrap then box it in.  Is roofing rubber a better way to go?

Shinnlinger - your house looks great.  I looked through the house and timber framing galleries - which pics should I look at?

[thecfarm]

Have you looked at the barn one yet? Check out his cupola.  ;D

[Hilltop366]

I have a idea that fibreglass is not going to do a lot for reducing sound, It does reduce sound from bouncing around compared to a hard surface but what I think would work better is what is called "Mass Loaded Vinyl with Decoupler" along with keeping the pipes from touching the framing and drywall to keep any vibrations from transferring through the wall.

[bigshow]

Bigshow - Is there a big advantage using floor trusses vs. 2X12 stick frame (assuming I mill lumber)?  It looks like it would be easier to run wiring/plumbing/etc.  Is there a carrying capacity advantage or anything else?

Engineered floor trusses have tons of room to put mechanical/anything betweeen the braces.  Of course, they will be more expensive.  Solid joists just require drilling lots of holes for this and that - and having to pay closer attention to what code calls for as far as where in the joist you can drill, size of holes, amount of holes, etc.  Of course, if your timber joists are actually doing all the legwork for support, it becomes a non issue. 

The best way your going to get sound deadening, is to add a layer of drywall to the ceiling side of the downstairs.  Use fiberglass too, but drywall does more than pretty much any sound deadening insulation.  And, drywall is way, way cheaper.  Just an idea.

[shinnlinger]

Indeed you can see where I dropped prepainted drywall in place on top of my joists.  Cheap and saved a bunch of time.  The 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 spacers on top of the joistscreatred a 1inch air space for pex, wiring and foil faced fiberglass.

[BigJim2185]

Shinnlinger - Ok, got it.  Files 22 + 23 in the house album.  Your place looks great man. In the flooring pic (file 25), is that pine with blue stain?  I was planning to get a mill this summer and start to get the hang of it with all the stick frame pieces (hemlock) for my decking, interior partitions, etc.  My next move was going to be pine boards for sheathing.  I was going to wait on the pine until fall or winter to avoid blue stain, but every pic I see of it makes me almost want it on ceilings or somewhere.

[addicted]

I seem to remember someone here talking about a sheet product that you could put down over your t and g that's designed for sound deadening and I think a 30 min fire rating as well. Then you have to deal with how you're going to attach the flooring on top of that.  It wouldn't do much for a bathroom but maybe for other room applications.
Rusty

[shinnlinger]

I tried to avoid bluestain at first, but as you can see it happens and I have grown to like wane, knots and the like.  I flipped most of my posts and joists and what not to hide wane but the few that I coudn't I actually like more.  Wood is natural and has blemishes.  I dont try to hide them anymore.