the last several weeks i have been studying and talking to the major bandmill companies, trying to decide which mill to buy. bear in mind i'm looking at mills that are close to $100,000 so my choices of models are more limited than smaller mills.
with talking to "salesmen" it becomes real clear, they are in way over their heads with very little actual knowledge of what they represent.
my dream company would actually do long studies running a wide variety of species, so when talking production numbers they can offer real time numbers. run a week at a time on several differant size logs and species. setup at a location and run for a week at a time sawing frozen logs. that way when talking to customers they have solid information to help in the decision making.
my dream company would have salesmen that know everything about the mills they represent so, if a question is asked about the computer system they arent spittin and sputtering trying to guess at the answer. :) they would also understand every aspect of how logs get sawed and offer some insight that would also help in the decision making.
my dream company would have real time vidieos that show the whole sawing of logs that are maked on the end to show the size of the log, this would offer a real idea of the performance of the mill.
my dream company would have customers that own the mill your interested in that actually return calls when trying to inquire more about the mill, or they wouldn't be on the list any longer ;)
sadly my dream company dosen't exsist so, i'm stuck trying to pull the small amounts of truths from these companies. i wish a mill came with a 6 month gaurentee if the production numbers don't live up to advertised rates :) it is very frustrating trying to make a serious desicion when it comes to a mill
Not a bad dream Steve......but a dream. :)
Are you serious about getting a BIG mill?
Are you going to wish for honest used care salesmen next? :D I think the only way to get a feel for a mill is to talk to someone who owns a mill like the one you want. 6,000 feet a day isn't a huge request for a high end stationary bandmill. After your other thread, I watched my LT300 video from about 10 or 12 years ago and timed the log they sawed. It looked like red oak. Took 6:41. It looked like a 20" to 22"x12' log. Not accounting for blade changes and other issues, that's pushing almost 2,000 feet an hour. Smaller logs would certainly knock that back a bunch, but still impressive for an overgrown LT70 :D
we are definelty going with a big mill, something that can easily cut 6000 bf in 8 hrs. the product we are looking to saw the logs are 8 -12 dia. since i cant get answers we might go with maybe the super 70 and put in a resaw with run around .
i think sometimes used car salesmen have more going for them :)
I believe there are good representatives out there. With that said the shops that
have proven products sell themselves, the reps are there
to handle the paper and negotiate the deal.
You know what you want in a mill go get it!!
Best
DGDrls
Just saw your post, if your going to add a resaw why not have a circle mill do the breakdown?
food for thought.
Steve did you consider putting in a vertical band head with a carriage? They should easily put out the footage you want and would also do away with the slab coming off of the end.
What does your 70 do an hour YoungStump?
Sounds like you are ready for a Scrag Mill.. I have been around and watched two brands in particular, namely Baker and Helle mills.
I do a fair amount of mill automation on Multi-drop Trim saws and single /double arbor gang saws.. Most stationary mills now a days run a circle/band mill with carriage and a scrag mill. Logs coming into the mill are directed to the circle/band or scrag by their diameter and length.... One of the mills in Maine, Prentiss-Carlyle, purchased a horizontal re-saw for slab recovery and secondary cant breakdown that I did the electrical engineering and software. Primary breakdown was with a Baker end-dogging scrag that would process logs to 14/15 " dia. and up to 13ft. length..
Before the re-saw the mill ran about 17K -18k bd-ft per 8 hour shift. After the addition of the re-saw production was at 25K bd-ft per 8 hour shift...
Scrag mills in this size are your mid-level mills where you can purchase various options as you go along.. Good Solid Mills...
When you move up to the Cooper Brand Scrag Mills output really goes up.. Did some controls work for a pallet mill in NC running a Cooper Scrag and they were running 104K Bd-Ft per 9 Hr. Shift...
i looked at a scragg but, i'm not sure if i can afford to lose scale for the sake of volume. i also want the system to be able to saw larger logs from time to time (16-24") basically i want my cake and eat it too :)
You do realize your dream salesman left the dream company to become your competition because they knew so much about all the products out there and they had the edge on you knowing the price points and other important information..... :D
Have you looked at the Wood-Mizer WM-3500 or WM-4000 series of Industrial Head-rigs?
Go to the Wood-Mizer site under Industrial Equipment, Head-rigs and look at the videos..
If I was a younger man and wanted to start up a sawmill either of these two would be the way to go..
Minimum manpower and available with various options to add as you are financially able..
An Wood-Mizer has a great reputation for equipment in regards to sales and service..
I'm pretty sure Red Oaks has checked with Woodmizer ;)
Quote from: Dave Shepard on February 20, 2015, 08:19:28 PM
What does your 70 do an hour YoungStump?
Sawing pallet cants with me sawing and one guy stacking and edging we could do around 3500 feet a day (8-8 1/2 working hours) with descent logs, that was before we were setup with log deck and conveyors. I just got the mill running in the new setup and haven't even sawed a full day yet, so I don't have a good idea what we'll be able to do now.
One of the most important questions you can ever ask a salesman is " so with this model 123 that you're trying to sell me, tell me, what are its bad points?" They're all quick to point out the competitions flaws, but if they can't / wont discuss the flaws in their own then they're either dishonest or clueless.
Honestly, you can talk with salesmen, or read spec sheets till you're crosseyed... but sooner or later (when we're talking serious coin for serious gear) you need to take a road trip and go see the machines in operation yourself. A good salesman should be happy to open doors for you, you need to go see other mills running the gear, talk with owners and watch whole of production line flow firsthand.
A week on the road, meals, airfares, accom, some car hire... Cheap if you know that what you order is right for you.
http://youtu.be/Jv0q3f6DYNg
Came across this video a while back, pretty interesting concept, definetly has some advantages over a horizontal bandmill. Quite a few Amish in my area have fitted circle mill carriages with band heads, some wide bands and some stick with narrow bands.
Its nice for a young man to dream.
Does anyone else find watching a video of a sawmill at work relaxing? I watched the whole repetitive process and enjoyed every minute. Its a bit different when I'm sawing - have to focus on what I'm doing.
Bob
i have been trying to go see some of the mills i have serious interest in but, the sawmills that have the equipment won't return calls so its very disapointing to say the least.i was within hours of placing an order for one of the mills that was mentioned but,after a very pointed conversation with the "salesman" i backed away because of his inaccurate info about production and couldn't answer specific questions regaurding the computer :) as you guys can tell, i'm not naming names cause this isn't a about certain mills,its mostly straight across the board. a big shout out to marty thou,i'm not in his territory for sevice but he's been very helpful
Red is in the gray area between homeowner and full blown commercial mill. If I was getting my feet damp in that swamp I'd look for a complete commercial setup used, most of the time you will pay pennies on the dollar. Frank C.
i have looked at commercial setups, yikes!! i got scared :D i'm not sure i want to dive in to the deep end yet :)i don't have big boy pants yet :D
I've never run a circle mill but always ask folks who own or had one of the older setups, about production, and it seems from what they tell me that their sweet spot was about 6 to 8 Mbf per day, with a proper crew. Is this wrong, or rather, what have you found out? Good luck with your search, I'm very interested with what you come up with.
YH
YH
You are right on about the production rate of older circle mills. In the 60's the family mill was composed of a Frick mill with hand sets, hand dogs and an addition man beside the sawyer to turn logs. Mill was powered by a Cummins 6 cyl. diesel engine that drove the circle mill, sawdust chain and a two saw manual set edger.. No driven conveyers... The edger man caught the lumber, ties and slabs coming off the circle saw..
Production rate was about 37.5Mbd to 45Mbd in a 40 hr. week.. Best week I can remember was a 77Mbd sawing pine... This was a mill that was setup in the woods...
We have been using a Baker end dogging band scragg for almost 20 years. Log size we saw is from 4" to about 12" if butt flare is small. Average log size is about 7" x 8' when we were running for quantity. We were making 3 1/2 x 3 1/2, 3 1/2 x 7 and 7x7. This is when we were making the mailbox posts. All out of ERC. Production was about 5000 feet per day.
Maximum length we can cut is 12'2"
Now we use the scragg to make 3 sided cants of many sizes for later sawing into lumber through the resaw.
The scragg would cut 2 slabs, bring log back, rotate 90 degrees and saw next 2 slabs. Slabs would either go through resaw for lumber recovery of down the belt to the mulching hog.
Last year we needed a bunch of 4x4x8 in a hurry, so we sorted the log pile to get 90 6" posts. Took 50 minutes of sawing with the scragg to get those 90 posts.
There are better log centering systems than what we use. Our alabama scragg had 2 centering yokes the log laid on. You could rotate log and position each end quickly to get maximum wood recovery.
For logs over 12" we use our WM LT30 electric.
For hardwood, I would look at circle saw scraggs. I have seen several on the auction block. Down stream handling is extremely important as the volume of material flowing through the system can be huge.
We would make 2 trailer loads of mulch a week, just from our small operation.
I made the mistake of buying a commercial milling operation when all I really needed was an entry level bandmill. ::)
red oaks,
I think if I were in your shoes, I would break down my requirements for a new mill into reliability, ease of maintenance, availability of bands, maintenance of bands, setworks technology, and log turning technology. I would also look at the log decks, edgers, and a resaw.
Of these, setworks and turning may be the most challenging aspects, and that's what I would focus on if I were a salesman to make customers and clients comfortable with spending funds on equipment. It would probably benefit companies to have a demo mill set up that let a potential customer familiarize themselves with the computerized components of the system and give it a test run.
Of course workflow analysis to reduce steps in a process and layout of operations has the potential of increasing yields tremendously.
Have you analyzed your operation to see where you have bottle necks?
You have received some great comments back. It's important to ask the right questions, isn't it? Factors like wood specie and log size are important. Other factors that make a huge difference in output include what do you have for help, log handling, unloading and yarding layout, etc.
Adherence to a maintenance schedule on your milling equipment may not make a huge difference at first, but as a sawmill guy with hundreds of customers, you can tell which ones take the time to keep their machines in good order and those who wait for something to wear out or break.
Best of luck as you work through these and other decision affecting issues.
Contact me personally if you would like some resources that might help, too.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29548/Kit_and_Daisy_Front_Bent_2_28800x59129.jpg)
the biggest thing for efficency is we are designing the whole sawing end ,then build the building around the operation. the decision to abandon the old building, frankly it wasn't going to work very well at best.
material handling will have a big emphasis on flow and the least amount of phycial hands on as possible. the plan right now is atleast 3 fulltime employees but,that number might change after things are running smoothly,won't be less :)
the new log yard will have around 500 cord capacity, with the log deck (min. 20') located roughly centered from either end of the yard.
the budget is figured on how much can the rest of the business absorb if there are times when the greenend is shut down. low log supply , soft markets. other unknowns
How is your search for a bigger mill coming along?
Did you look into the Select double cut mill?
If its all small diam 20" or less i would at least consider a scagg mill. sharp chain or hyd band or circle you can cut 10-20,000 bdft per day easily thats if you can get that many logs you can also use a run around to use it as resaw if you wanted to.
Sounds like you got a fun summer coming up, building your mill. 8) congrats.
finally we have come to a decison :) drum roll....
after looking at alot of differant mills/styles . the main log size will be on the smaller size but, then when we saw our pine which can be 24" dia plus and 16' that changes everything again :) so, the final direction is go with a complete setup using a wm 4000 as the head rig. we are leaving room in the new shop for a resaw run around to be added later if need be.
8)
Wow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDlqgffrQFw
Saw the laser line near the end, how useful that would be.
Thanks for the video, Lynn! That thing is impressive!
I didn't even know they made a WM 2000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvbK7nMGvas
The WM 4000 uses a single chain power feed cantilever headrig. Wonder where they got that idea?? ???
ROL
smiley_thumbsup
I've spent a lot of time watching and studying different mills. I figured that something like a WM4000 was probably suitable to your production requirements. The next step up to the wide band head rigs seems to be for 20,000 feet a day and up, and has a huge amount of handling equipment that has to go with it to keep up.
i'm thinking and hoping the laser really takes the guess work out of leveling the log, which will save time on opening faces.
i gotta admit this has been the longest time and effort i ever put into making a decsion.i put a smiley face on the calendar last week wed. whatever happens that day i was happy with the decsion :)
the mill has an 8 week leadtime so,when the mill shows up we are planning to have the building ready :) i have alot of friends in the building trades, i hired 2 crews to put the building up and do the concrete work. both crews have worked together on other projects so no worries there.
Quote from: red oaks lumber on March 26, 2015, 07:53:51 AMwe are leaving room in the new shop for a resaw.
WDH cut you off at the pass (old saying) on that one. ;D
I thought WDH bought the edger out from under him? ???
why do you guys have to keep picking the edger scab? :D :D :D
'cause you coulda used da edger until you get ah resaw.
Poston only bought a Second Hoe. . . Because everyone needs more than one Hoe. . . You are Buying Everything! ! !
i don't want a hoe :D
ROL, your choice of sawmill is gonna make Jake jealous. Well, me too... Congrats! 8)
Lots of us like a HOEDOWN!!!!
Quote from: tmarch on March 26, 2015, 07:39:36 PM
Lots of us like a HOEDOWN!!!!
They'll be a HOEDOWN in Georgia in May. At least he said he was coming. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
hoe hoe hoe your goat gently till he screams, when he goes to sleep he sees rol in his dreams. :D
running-doggy
run faster goat smiley_fiddler best be gettin ready
So what are you going to do with the old mill?
Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 26, 2015, 08:26:11 PM
So what are you going to do with the old mill?
Sell it to WDH.......He'll buy anything! :D :D :D :D :D :D
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 26, 2015, 08:27:44 PM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 26, 2015, 08:26:11 PM
So what are you going to do with the old mill?
Sell it to WDH.......He'll buy anything! :D :D :D :D :D :D
anything?
Quote from: 4x4American on March 26, 2015, 10:32:32 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on March 26, 2015, 08:27:44 PM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on March 26, 2015, 08:26:11 PM
So what are you going to do with the old mill?
Sell it to WDH.......He'll buy anything! :D :D :D :D :D :D
anything?
And I just donated an old USN Extreme Cold Foul Weather Jacket to a charity. Maybe I should have tried to sale it to Danny. ;D ;D ;D He needs something like that in the deep south. ::) ::) ::) It was a medium and I sure it would have fit him. :D :D :D
About time you get off your duff and make a decision. :D
man you guys are a tough crowd :)
we sold the mill a couple years back and rented a mill for a while ,finally hired our sawing done since. don't get me started on that circus ;) it's hard having someone doing sawing and not having the same eye for quality as what we expect.
Sweet ride 8)
What else are you getting? Conveyers, green chain, whole package?
YH
20' log deck, incline conveyor, industial edger(thanks jake :() green chain. saw dust conveyors will be bought else where.complete grinding room to be added later this summer.
still trying to decide if we want in floor heat or just go with overhead modines
Definitely Heat Floor! ! !
Convection heat works very well and is easy on the wallet
Quote from: red oaks lumber on March 28, 2015, 07:35:54 AM
20' log deck, incline conveyor, industial edger(thanks jake :() green chain. saw dust conveyors will be bought else where.complete grinding room to be added later this summer.
still trying to decide if we want in floor heat or just go with overhead modines
I like in floor heat, but with all that equipment, you will need a magic wand to figure out where to drill the anchor bolt holes. :D
Quote from: Dave Shepard on March 28, 2015, 09:31:33 AMyou will need a magic wand to figure out where to drill the anchor bolt holes. :D
I ain't loaning my wand out. ;D
Modines will blow the dust around. Floor heat will not work thru sawdust. If you plan on keeping the sawdust cleaned up it will work fine.
How will the conveyors work for the sawdust? Will it just fill a box next to the mill?
Thats going to be cutting the wood there hey... ;D
the sawdust from the conveyor will drop into a dumpster which then it can be dumped into the sawdust pit which contains a blower that will blow into a semi van trailer. i dont want a blower with piping running all day to move a small amount of dust at a time
Red Oaks, Here I am running your mill, cuts real nice. I bet 8Mbf/day no problem. We sawed up these logs, sorry didn't get any pics was busy pounding out the lumber on the WM4000 ;D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25990/IMG_20150527_110920.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25990/IMG_20150527_110001.jpg)