Can you remove ethanol from gasoline?

[shinnlinger]

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/2012DecEthanol.pdf

[Tom L]

that's what usually happens in a boat fuel tank, if not used constantly and not treated, the ethanol separates and the alcohol absorbs water which then blooms algae which clogs all the filters and causes a mess.

[shinnlinger]

I think its pretty enterprising to add the water and to remover the ethanol right off the bat.   Might be an affordable way  to go ethanol free.

Dave

[Fraxinus]

I think its pretty enterprising to add the water and to remover the ethanol right off the bat.   Might be an affordable way  to go ethanol free.

Dave

Dave, you might want to send that link to your State Rep., Chuck Townsend, who is the vice chairman of the Science, Technology and Energy committee.  I have sent it to the chair and a couple of the other members who I know are interested in the subject.  I am also a member of that committee.
Les

[shinnlinger]

Les,

I know Chuck.  Would talking with him help make it possible to buy ethanol free gas in NH?

Dave

[isaacpopp]

Nah. The EPA will just make it illegal to mix water into the gasoline  :D

[Peter Drouin]

Well Im going to make a set up to do that for all the small things,

[TimRB]

Sheesh--this explains a mystery for me.  One day our generator started running poorly and, on examination, I found an alarming amount of water in the gas tank.  (Didn't actually measure it, but it was a pint or more...)  This, even though I carefully filled from a gas can and stored the generator in a weatherproof (but unheated) location.  Over time, the ethanol in the gas must have absorbed enough atmospheric water to cause separation. 

I learn a lot reading this forum.

Tim

[Fraxinus]

Les,

I know Chuck.  Would talking with him help make it possible to buy ethanol free gas in NH?

Dave

Probably not.  We have passed bills at least twice to do away with corn based ethanol in gasoline in NH but there are millions of reasons why it can't be done, if you catch my meaning.
This is one issue where party makes no difference.  Chuck and I are not of the same party. ;)
What part of Canaan do you live in?  I used to work for NHEC so I know my way around the place pretty good.

[shinnlinger]

Les,

Chuck has an old Farmall if that helps bridge the political gap.  I announce the old homeday parade and I'm always haranging him to bring it down to pull the dems around.  Ray Burton has his Oldsmobile though and thats cool.  My place is the only one in town with a VW van on the roof of my barn.  Most folks know it.....

[jwilly3879]

You can separate the gas but without the ethanol the octane is much lower.

[John Mc]

Note that E10 gas gets about 4 of it octane rating from the ethanol.  Remove the ethanol, and your 91 octane E10 premium gas becomes 87 Octane E0 gas. 

The article mentions adding an octane booster to compensate. Be warned that many of these products have some rather deceptive labeling (IMO).  For example, they say that adding so much booster per gallon will raise the octane by "2 points".  What this can really mean is that it boosts octane rating by 0.2, so 87 octane becomes 87.2 (NOT 89).  I have no idea if this is true for all octane boosters, but it would pay to investigate further before trusting that you know what octane you are ending up with.

If you've got an engine that will tolerate leaded gas (and no catalytic converter to get messed up by the lead), adding a gallon of aviation gas to 9 gallons of 87 octane auto gas wil get you pretty close to 89 octane.  Of course, Avgas is running pretty close to $6/gallon these days... and this whole process is starting to get fairly complex (mix with water to strip out ethanol, drain off water/ethanol, mix with Avgas...)

[petefrom bearswamp]

try puregas.org for the locations of ethanol free gas stations.
The US map shows lots of them.
Pete

[shinnlinger]

Why are all those places at least an hour away from me????

[John Mc]

Are you near any Marinas?  They often have ethanol-free gas.  Some small airports do as well (some piston aircraft engines don't have to have Aviation gas, so folks use ethanol-free auto gas - much cheaper)

[maple flats]

try pure-gas.org   They have a list of places to get ethanol free gas. Maybe there is one closer than you think.

[GeorgeK]

Interesting topic. I own a small plane that can fly on 87 oct. But only without ethanol. I have been interested in buying gas and removing it but had worried about the lower oct rating. Keep me in the loop if you all try it. I would like to do it 100 gallons at a time and then put in my storage tank. 

[sawguy21]

Are you near any Marinas?  They often have ethanol-free gas.  Some small airports do as well (some piston aircraft engines don't have to have Aviation gas, so folks use ethanol-free auto gas - much cheaper)

Don't get caught, the road tax hasn't been paid.

[John Mc]

Are you near any Marinas?  They often have ethanol-free gas.  Some small airports do as well (some piston aircraft engines don't have to have Aviation gas, so folks use ethanol-free auto gas - much cheaper)

Don't get caught, the road tax hasn't been paid.

Yeah, but if you're using it in chainsaws, lawnmowers, and the like, that doesn't matter.

[John Mc]

Les,

I know Chuck.  Would talking with him help make it possible to buy ethanol free gas in NH?

Dave

Probably not.  We have passed bills at least twice to do away with corn based ethanol in gasoline in NH but there are millions of reasons why it can't be done, if you catch my meaning.
This is one issue where party makes no difference.  Chuck and I are not of the same party. ;)
What part of Canaan do you live in?  I used to work for NHEC so I know my way around the place pretty good.

Doing away with it is one thing - it may not even be possible on the state level, and good luck making that fly on the federal level. There is just too much money invested and political influence behind the ethanol industry now to "do away with it".

On the other hand, it should be possible to make E0 gas available.  It is in Vermont, at a couple of stations in my area.  For the past several years, non-ethanol premium gas was available only from about May through Sept, and then only at stations that made the extra effort to get it.  Starting in fall of 2012, a few stations had it available year round. (I'm told the source of E0 gas used to be from somewhere in Canada, but the year-round guys now seem to be getting it from the Albany NY area, IIRC).

For us, the E0 premium (91 Octane) costs about 7 - 10% more than the E10 regular (87 octane).  I buy all my small engine gas as E0 premium.  I also make it a point to fill up my car tank with the E0 when I'm in the area. I want to give the business to the stations that are jumping through the hoops to make it available.  It ends up not being any more expensive, since my cars all get about 10% better gas mileage when running E0 (doesn't make a lot of sense: E0 does have a bit more energy content than E10, but not 10% more.)

[John Mc]

Interesting topic. I own a small plane that can fly on 87 oct. But only without ethanol. I have been interested in buying gas and removing it but had worried about the lower oct rating. Keep me in the loop if you all try it. I would like to do it 100 gallons at a time and then put in my storage tank.

I'm a pilot also (Comm & CFI).  My plane (a Cessna 172 upgraded to 180HP engine) can run E0 autogas, but it needs to be at least 91 Octane.  I have run E0 91 octane, and it seems to run fine, but I don't do it much anymore.  The shelf life of autogas is nowhere near that of AvGas, and I'm just not flying as much as I used to.

I'd be leery of trying to strip the ethanol out of E10 premium by mixing water and draining off the ethanol/water mix.  You don't really know what octane you are ending up with, and there is not a lot of margin for error here.  If you have residual ethanol/water in the fuel (which you most likely will) this can attack rubber (or similar) fuel lines, swell o-rings, etc.  It's also corrosive and will attack aluminum (and fiberglass, as the boating industry has discovered). Maybe you'll be fine, but the consequences of having a problem in an aircraft can be a little more severe than in a car, boat, or chainsaw.

[calw1izl]

George,

I am also a pilot, Navion, 172 and PA11 over the years and have been purging my Ethanol gas for some time now and while I make a point to add a couple of ounces of SeaFoam, Octane Booster as well as a full dose of marine grade Stabil back to all my gas, I have several friends, one who is a well respected mechanic in one of the local towns that does not add any octane booster to his refined gas.  His spin is that there is so little octane lost that in all the tests he has done, it always is 87 + grade octane.  I have a post somewhere, I believe under the "general board" discussions group outlining what I use for the vessel to separate the Ethanol.  The toughest part is something that is easy to "valve up" to allow extraction and refilling the gas containers. I use a 15 gallon "chemical inductor" and mating stand which is plumbed down to a valve and 3/4" reinforced hose and it works slick.  Cost is minimal and I usually do 10 gallons per time and it take about 30 minutes for total separation. It starts immediately and as a rule I end up with just a tad under 1 gallon of water and Ethanol per batch.  I use one of the 1 gallon glass jars to make it easy to see the change from garbage to clean gas. It is very irritating to have to throw away 4 bucks but the alternative is problem much more severe and costly repairing/rebuilding all the carbs, tanks on the small engines and equipment. I use this on my mill, trimmers, brush saws, chainsaws and utility vehicles.  BTW the closest marina where I could purchase Ethanol free gas is down in Bar Harbor or over in St. John's, both a considerable ways to drive.  As far as AV gas, most of it in this general area has Ethanol in it.  This info comes from the fellow that owns the distributing company that delivers it here locally. 

I hope this info is helpful.

Cal

[calw1izl]

I forgot to tell you that to make the separation occur, you need to add 2.5 oz. of water per gallon  of gas, mix well and then let it sit for maybe 30 minutes.

Cal

[beenthere]

And from what is being reported, EPA plans to make the ethanol a higher % in the near future.
Prolly just because they have the power, and want to show it.

[John Mc]

As far as AV gas, most of it in this general area has Ethanol in it.  This info comes from the fellow that owns the distributing company that delivers it here locally. 

If you are referring to 100LL when you say Av Gas, it NOT have ethanol in it (unless someone misfueled a tank somewhere along the line).  I'm not referring to trace amounts, but ethanol in any appreciable quantity would mean the 100LL does not meet the ASTM spec.