iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Go Big or Go Home, Going Big

Started by SawyerTed, May 28, 2021, 12:10:28 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mike_belben

you really took a big bite this time ted.  ill be following along and wishing you good fortunes. 
Praise The Lord

stavebuyer

Exciting and ambitious undertaking :o.

My former partner is putting the finishing touches on a newly installed Cooper scragg and hoping the test run will be the end of next week. The lead time on the mill was about a year when oak flooring was next to worthless last July.

For whatever reasons the availability of logs and labor has deteriorated drastically over the past 12 months. I would focus my diligence into the log procurement and labor side of the equation. I'd want to know where the logs are going to come from and who is going to drive the trucks? The answers to those two questions are markedly different than just a few months ago.





nativewolf

Echo stavebuyer cautions trucking and labor.  

As the kilns and the electronics are all there I think that is a pretty exciting thing.  Could you do custom kiln work for others?  There are a lot of supply/capacity constraints throughout the hardwood industry.  Perhaps kiln capacity is one of them and some hardwood mill is looking for overflow?  

Is the former kiln operator around to hire?  

Curious as to your plans to rebuild, will you try to cut out the fire damaged areas of the building or is it scrap it and rebuild?  I have no idea how insurance and building codes view these things.  The only consolation I would add is that perhaps this is the best time to sell scrap and work on the plans to rebuild with the understanding that the steel industry should autocorrect within the year. 
Liking Walnut

Satamax

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

tule peak timber

Ambitious,awesome....Power, labor,fuel costs,,,,all the challenges us small mill guys face on a mega scale. May your rewards outpace the challenges ahead !
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

scsmith42

Quote from: tule peak timber on June 03, 2021, 08:27:41 AM
Ambitious,awesome....Power, labor,fuel costs,,,,all the challenges us small mill guys face on a mega scale. May your rewards outpace the challenges ahead !
What he said!
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

SawyerTed

I appreciate the positive thoughts on this effort.  As chief "crack filler" here on site, I've got a bunch of stuff happening all at the same time.  Everything from working with vendors to get quotes and plan production, getting the electrical connections we need to helping get the track loader alternator changed.  Nothing is the same each day.  But I am blessed that we have good workers here.

There are a lot of questions to be answered and you all are asking the very things we are trying to anticipate.

What are we running to make shavings?  A 60" Salsco Shavings Mill.  It is within about 3 or 4 weeks of being operational.  Waiting on the power company and electricians to get the transformer set and we have some final setup to do.  We purchased the shavings mill from a company in Alabama.  Apparently they ran it hard so we are overhauling it.

Trucking and log supply?  We have a sister company that has three logging crews running right now.  They have the equipment and trucks on the road right now. Yet another sister company is a grading and hauling company with many drivers on the road daily.  We are thinking we have a good start on sourcing logs and trucking. We have on hand a supply of logs to keep the shavings mill and firewood processor running for a month with more logs coming about two days per week.  Once the sawmill is running we will need logs from other sources and have some independent crews wanting to bring logs now.

How are we planning to repair the building?  The sawmill building has to be assessed by an engineer before we can definitively say what has to be done but as best we can tell there is some limited structural work to be done the rest is purlins and sheet metal.  Of course we will have to take down that mezzanine which we believe will require removal of part of the roof anyway.  Most of the decking and metal inside will be reused where we can and the rest will be scrapped.  We've already sent several roll off dumpsters of scrap out of here and there will be several more to go.  The destiny of the overhead carriage still is up in the air.  We won't likely reuse it but may sell it.  Does anybody need knife blade material?  I have lots of sawmill blades for the asking - you pick up, I'll load.  

Can we start the kilns and offer kiln services?  We've been tempted to offer kiln services and still have that option.  The first problem with that is that doing so would direct us away from our primary business targets.  The second is we don't have control over the product coming in to be kiln dried.  It takes a good bit of resources to run a 50,000 board feet kiln load and if junk goes in, it comes out junk. The previous owner tried a bit of kiln drying for others and it didn't turn out well.  If we were to start kiln drying, it would be lumber that we purchase from mills with high standards for their product.  Another obstacle would be having enough sawdust, chips and shavings to run the boilers, our wood shavings will mostly be green softwood and we haven't yet designed our sawdust recovery from the firewood processor. 

Sometimes I am reminded of Todd Snider's song 

Todd Snider Too Much To Think About - YouTube
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

mike_belben

did you get to keep the truck scale?  thats a big big thing. beautiful site. looking at the area i am sure logs will come to you at any price if youll buy from the ton truck hillbillies and gooseneck loggers.


i hope at least one of you owners gets a CDL.  it is only getting harder with time.  you are probably the only potentially reliable driver you know on a moments notice and there will be days when you want to go to the auction in the truck and drag your new stuff home without any fuss. trucks are probably half the fun of the log business.. playing billy big rig.  when the office and the mill are driving you crazy, turn the phone off and go float some gears to get away and clear your head. with flat rates in the $4+ per mile range it is economical to own atleast ONE of your own trucks, and the freedom it gives to fly out the door with keys in hand will be important at times. trucks are a necessary evil in all things lumber and i dont think you can rely on the outside spot market during a capacity crunch such as this.  when the tables turn you can surely take advantage of cheap spot market deck space which is precisely what lumber always always always does. looks for desperate trucks.  but there are no desperate trucks right now to build a business on.


 i have a few close friends who have run businesses that size and theres a consensus among them that less employees is better.  ive heard it a bunch of times that the more people i hire the less money i make and the more BS i am dealing with.  when its a skeleton crew of hard workers, the money is pouring in but everyone is running ragged and burning out. feast or famine as they say.    

(edit-  you posted while i was hammering away.  good to hear about the log supply and transport)
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

i dont know if itll be of any help, but bestway south inc is a major pressure treater in stony point NC that i hauled from.    165 halyburton rd.  

arauco has an OSB plant in moncure and might buy chips.  i also saw a lot of chips and dust headed to the waynesboro/maggie valley area daily. i dont know if you have plans for 100% of your chip output or not.  charcoal plants and liquid smoke are booming too, know a few guys working in a major one now and theyre expanding a lot.   will you be sorting chips and shavings by species or running it all out one line for the boilers?


Praise The Lord

SawyerTed

We do still have the scales and they are working.  Not quite ready to start buying logs yet.  I suspect we will be buying from the local farmers and land owners by the gooseneck load at some point.  

The trucking side of things is someone else's headache for now.  We know that will be a challenge given the shortage of drivers right now.  The good thing about drivers for a business like ours is they will not be on the road overnight very often.

Got news today that the power company has our transformer and is ready for install once the red tape is done.  Electricians say they can get the work done in three or four days.  We will be making shavings as soon as the parts for the shavings mill arrive.

Today was a good day!  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

SawyerTed

 

 The mill building is circled.  The long building with squiggly line is the sorter which is gone. The x is on "T" sheds for air drying, they are gone.  The rest is intact.  

It is interesting how small the sawmill building in relation to the rest of the facility.  

The idea that it's a material handling puzzle with a sawmill in the middle is really true! Instead of within 100 feet for a small band mill this is 50 acres!
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

nativewolf

Good to have a good day!  Enjoy the evening, your list of to dos must be quite a list.

Liking Walnut

mike_belben

so we see you have gone big ted. the question is have you gotten to go home yet?

:)
Praise The Lord

moodnacreek

I love to comment on sawmills but that place [or any commercial mill] is past my pay scale. It is nice that someone has the ambition to make it go again. Over the years in the north east the sawmill auctions I have attended meant the end.                The best of luck to Ted and thanks for sharing , hope to see more.

longtime lurker

This is a form of madness. The best and most glorious type of madness to be sure - but still madness. I'm just a little jealous, i spent some time around big mills back when. There's not enough logs around here to feed that thing for moren 10 years.

I think like a lot of businesses when they scale up the issues you'll find will be - not quite what you expected. Managing a little mill is nothing like what you'll face there... little mills are about logs, sawdust, having two guys show up for work, and getting paid. Big mills are about contractual negotiations around fancy tables, cost projections, crystal ball gazing and futures trading with the bean counters, and finding a new HR guy when the old one quits.

If I lived close enough I'd be looking to come over sometimes, lend a hand, beer after work stuff. And run away the day after she gets turned on - the big mill environment is not for me.

But I sure get a kick about seeing people chase their dreams. I hope it gives you what you want from it
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

VB-Milling

@SawyerTed

I am facinated by this adventure, both from your new business venture and the previous owner.

A brief internet search puts the fire in early Feb 2018 with the auction in late 2020.

Sounds like the previous owner tried to sell everything as a package deal and when that didn't work, he decided to go to auction.  Any idea why he didn't rebuild?  Took the insurance money and got out of it?

From oils and starters for the yard equipment to 14inch Craftsman bandsaws, and everything in between, went to auction.  Seems like the fire really spelled the end of days for the previous owner.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you are able to breath new life into this business.  You are well on your way already.
HM126

SawyerTed

Things are progressing here.  There have been some stumbling blocks related to getting electrical service upgraded and installed for new machines.  Most of that has been manufacturer backlog, supply chain and materials shortage issues. Dealing with the power company red tape and regulations has been a bit frustrating but we are getting through it.  We have plenty of available 3 phase power, the frustration is that we are having to correct things that were allowed previously.  That equals both time and money.  At least our electrical service will be situated for the foreseeable future after all this.  Our biggest delay is getting the "insides" for an 800 amp service entrance.  Breakers and the rest of the inner parts are in short supply/backordered.

We are beginning to add personnel here as well.  We just can't get the machinery installation done in a timely manner with the people we have.  They are good skilled people, there just aren't enough of them.  Our team of 6 has learned to be flexible.  We've done everything from machine dismantling and reassembly/overhaul to weed eating around the office.

Our log concentration yard is beginning to operate a little.  How that develops depends largely on our ability to acquire rolling stock to operate.

The madness comes and goes.  Some days are arrow straight and we get a lot accomplished, other days leave us scratching our heads on what we got done.  Lately I've been working in the office mostly on our safety program, lockout tagout, logistics of equipment acquisition, personnel and state and county government stuff.  Mostly this is a fun endeavor and I don't feel like I'm "working"

The previous owner toyed with the idea of rebuilding the sawmill but decided to retire from the sawmill business.  He did say if he was 20 years younger, he would have rebuilt. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

CCCLLC

Great news that things are moving forward. Tough times  for getting supplies when needed I'm  sure. Wish I was closer to get in the way as well. Great job!

Iwawoodwork

Sawyer Ted, on your safety programs I strongly suggest you use the free Consultant program offered by OSHA.  The consultants are an independent group that do not interact with  the enforcement side of OSHA. They are free and confidential to your company. I was with Oregon Osha safety enforcement for 20 years and always told employers that the consultant group was the best bang for the dollar you can invest in, especially when just starting up. Here in Oregon they will go to your site, look it over, then help you set up the various programs, Many of them had developed fill in the blanks program, etc. I was always glad when I conducted an onsite safety enforcement inspection and found that the employer had previously had the OSHA consultants onsite, there were usually far fewer violations and of much less penalty $$.  Here in Oregon the EPA, environmental, air, chemicals, and water agency were far more aggressive than OSHA so do not forget that area either.

Southside

That isn't the same in every State. I can tell you from first hand experience that in some states the consultation side will absolutely report you to enforcement if they find a violation and you don't address it to their standard. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

SawyerTed

We actually are working with NCDOL OSH Consultative Services already.  Even though the services are free, we are still responsible for establishing and maintaining a safety and health program.  They don't do it for us.  But they will provide guidance and expertise.  Our agreement with them does say if they find noncompliance we must correct it in a timely manner.  If we do not, they will report us to the compliance enforcement section.  I just don't see any circumstance where we wouldn't correct an identified hazard.

My previous experience with this has been good.  They are mostly reasonable.  In my experience it's better to be working with them than not.  Between them, our Workers' comp company and out liability insurance company, we have plenty of help!  It is in their best interest and saves us money to access their help.  

On the storm water and air quality side, we are also working proactively with the consultants to minimize our chances of noncompliance and the enforcement cycle side.  Our permits are already in place, its just a matter of monitoring and reporting at this time.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

longtime lurker

When I was younger, stronger, and probably smarter I got involved in a big mill setup in a third world location; it was one of the best experiences of my life. Challenges, difficulties, lot of sweat... big plans and a small budget... I thrived on the experience. Fast forward 30 years and here I am halfway through building something from nothing again, albeit on a lot smaller scale.

And I am still mostly loving it. But I got to tell ya all that stuff... EPA compliance, OH&S, county/state/federal government, dealing with the union (not yet but it's coming for both of us), engineers, accountants and lawyers... sucks all the fun right out of it, and adds a whole lot of expense.

Know what I miss? Being able to just solve the problem. Need a road - take the dozer and make one. Need to get rid of sawdust? - drop a syphon into a creek, flume it down a hill and run water through the mill under every saw, drop the sawdust in a settlement pond and let the water run clean out into the river. Need a barge ramp - corduroy straight down the beach to low water mark.

I'm all for environmental responsibility, and safe work environments, and that. But I'm now in week 6 of arguing  about the fact I want to do a long span in wood not steel.... just like the nearly 100 year old mill buildings down the road or every hiway bridge in the area... cuz the engineering approval guy can't just look at a load rating table somewhere to say it's okay.

Truth is that we'd all be still getting around in a horse drawn wagon and gathering wood to cook dinner if the guys who built nations 150 years ago had to put up with the red and green tape that exists today. As I said before - if I was close I'd love to lend a hand but that part of it... that stuff I am not jealous of.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

SawyerTed

I don't disagree that there's a ton of time involved in being "in compliance" with the county, state and federal government requirements.  Of course, time is money.  Most our delays aren't due to lack of response or even disagreements on building codes, electrical codes, safety regs, air and water regs etc.  

Our delays are coming from manufacturing and supply chain issues.  For instance the power company tells us a three phase transformer is 128 days out due to the manufacturer's production schedule. They tool up and produce a batch of transformers, retool and produce a batch with different specifications every 128 days.  Another is the electrical contractor can't get the breakers and insides of an 800 amp panel due to manufacturing and shipping delays.  Our construction contractors and even the local hardware store are experiencing delays in the supply chain for things we need.  Even when we try to source items from other vendors, they have the same problems.

So the dynamics of juggling the delays is the frustrating part.  We get to a certain point with various installations and have to wait.  Then everything starts coming together for several installations all at once.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

K-Guy


That seems to be everyone's problem these days unfortunately. Hopefully they aren't too long for you.

I think businesses are rethinking this "Just in time supply"
Nyle Service Dept.
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
- D. Adams

LogPup

I can see the "Just in Time" if your supplier and materials are with a certain area.  But, when it is coming from half way around the world things get messed
up.  The cost to air freight 3 pallets would pay for warehousing for twenty years.  Someone needs to learn how to count the beans. This happens more often than you would think.

Thank You Sponsors!