Western larch my new least favorite

[Crossroads]

Was milling for a regular customer yesterday and had a couple of 8'x20" western larch to cut. I've dealt with them and the pitch build up on the blade before and with the short logs I simply clean the blade before each cut with my pocket knife. Then we put a 16'x22" log on the mill and at about 12' into the cut I would get enough build up to cause some wave 😤😤. Even with cleaning the blade between cuts and squirting diesel on the blade with a squirt bottle while in the cut on one cut the blade took a hard upward detour, there was no saving it so I kept going while lifting the head, just to get out of the cut. Fortunately, the lumber we needed from this log was only 10' so I was able to buck the last 6' off and finish the order. I'm ashamed to admit that it had me using words I don't normally use before it was all done. I'm glad I don't deal with that stuff very often, it sure takes the joy out of an otherwise good day of milling. 

[Satamax]

Crossroads, i don't know if your larch was real pitchy. 

I cut mainly european larch, "larix decidua" 

Pure diesel works well for me, but the stream has to be big like a small welding rod. 

What i do now, mix diesel and washing up liquid. 2/3-1/3, and mix that mix with water. 

1/3 lube mix 2/3 water. And kind of flood it. In an afternoon, i might go through 2 or 3 gallons. Cutting the lube on the way back. 

The washing up liquid helps mix the diesel with water. 

[Jeff]

Eastern larch must be a different animal. It saws like a dream, however it likes to act up after the fact.  I may change my tune as I have some here to saw that were dead standing 

[JRWoodchuck]

I primarily saw dead standing Western Larch I've found that there is usually so much pitch build up in the butt log that I've started turned my the bottom 10' log into firewood and then the rest of the logs usually cut really well. Took me awhile to realize that the butt logs were creating the grief. Most logs would mill really well then all the sudden the next log would be not so fun. Being the guy felling the trees also helps with that. 

[GAB]

JRW:
Have you experimented with just putting the bottom 5' into firewood.
Does the DBH also affect the heavier pitch length.
GAB

[moosehunter]

Sawed up a triaxle load of larch this weekend. 4900 bd ft. , 20 gallon of water/ Dawn lube. Only had the blade wander twice on wider cuts. Running the lube wide open most of the time. 
mh

[donbj]

I have cut a ton of western larch and it cut great. As others have mentioned it is probably the butt end you're cutting. I have run into that with d-fir and larch. 

[Crossroads]

Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood. 

[JRWoodchuck]

I tried to do smaller firewood sections when I first noticed this problem but on the bigger logs it did seem to not work as well so I've just done 10' ish and that seems to help a lot. 

[Crossroads]

I'll be cutting for this guy again in a few weeks, I know he has at least 1 more bigger WL, hopefully the order will allow us to cut some off the butt and see if it helps. I would guess the colder temperatures would probably help a little, but I'm not sure. 

[donbj]

Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.

It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.

[Ventryjr]

I cut some eastern larch that was stacked on the ground for about a year.  I just cut it into 6x6 posts for my sawmill roof and they are pouring out sap.   I was nailing in a header and got completely covered in sap.  

[Satamax]

The other day, in firewood, i had one covering me in water, well, very "lean" sap! With the chainsaw. 

[wisconsitom]

I was stripping bark off a few hybrid larch poles cut last winter.  This stripping was early this summer.  The wood/bark was still so juicy I had flecks of sap all over my face and glasses.  Really wet stuff.  Smelled good too.

Too bad I never got to the other 400 or so that are still laying in piles.  Wonder when/how I'll get to all of that, especially given I can thin an equal number of stems out of those same stands this coming winter!

Larch is rich in a polysaccharide (like a whole bunch of sugar molecules chemically hooked together) called arabino-galactan.  This stuff also makes the wood less suitable for pulping, and a given amount of larch pulpwood must be mixed with a given amount of other wood types for that process to work.  This same substance is extracted and used as a dietary health aid for the human gut.  It acts as a soluble fiber.  I use it and think it beneficial.

And yes, this substance is concentrated near the butt.

[randy d]

Tom we started cutting Tamarack today. I kind of like cutting it, saws well. its drying and keeping it straight is tough to do. It sure is pretty when it's planed up. Randy

[Crossroads]

Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.

It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.

That's interesting, hardly anyone calls it western larch, most people around here call it Tamarack. As for we're the trees came from, I don't know, they were trucked in is all I know. I didn't see any of the normal signs of stress in the wood like lifting, bowing or pulling. The only thing I had was pitch buildup. Interesting thing though, the last blade I ran on Saturday was only on the mill for a few cuts and had quite a bit of buildup on it when I pulled it off and coiled it up. I put it in the pickup last night to run on today's job. It rained last night and all of the buildup was broke down and whipped off easily. So, maybe diesel isn't the best thing to use on tamarack? 

[Runningalucas]

Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.

It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.

That's interesting, hardly anyone calls it western larch, most people around here call it Tamarack. As for we're the trees came from, I don't know, they were trucked in is all I know. I didn't see any of the normal signs of stress in the wood like lifting, bowing or pulling. The only thing I had was pitch buildup. Interesting thing though, the last blade I ran on Saturday was only on the mill for a few cuts and had quite a bit of buildup on it when I pulled it off and coiled it up. I put it in the pickup last night to run on today's job. It rained last night and all of the buildup was broke down and whipped off easily. So, maybe diesel isn't the best thing to use on tamarack?

Yup, I've used the term Western Larch, and people often look clueless, but to say Tamarack, brings them back.   

[donbj]

Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.

It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.

That's interesting, hardly anyone calls it western larch, most people around here call it Tamarack. As for we're the trees came from, I don't know, they were trucked in is all I know. I didn't see any of the normal signs of stress in the wood like lifting, bowing or pulling. The only thing I had was pitch buildup. Interesting thing though, the last blade I ran on Saturday was only on the mill for a few cuts and had quite a bit of buildup on it when I pulled it off and coiled it up. I put it in the pickup last night to run on today's job. It rained last night and all of the buildup was broke down and whipped off easily. So, maybe diesel isn't the best thing to use on tamarack?

It's a regional thing as well as for what people call it. My uncle called it tamarack as well. I guess being a scaler I lean to the proper names. The sap build up can be a challenge for sure. I have a couple butt ends here that went to the firewood pile, more for shake than anything else but the sap would have been ugly.

[JRWoodchuck]

Gotta educate those people that we don't have Tamarack we have Western Larch. Like we don't have 'Red Fir' it's Doug Fir. 

[wisconsitom]

Everybody calls my hybrid larch tamaracks.  Just one of those things.  

[donbj]

Gotta educate those people that we don't have Tamarack we have Western Larch. Like we don't have 'Red Fir' it's Doug Fir.

And there's Jack Pine, whos proper name is Lodgepole Pine, Bull Pine is Yellow Pine.

[barbender]

I wonder if the names in the Northwest, are due to the many midwesterners that hopped across the prairies to log the timber out there. 

[Crossroads]

Gotta educate those people that we don't have Tamarack we have Western Larch. Like we don't have 'Red Fir' it's Doug Fir.

Lol, the red fir took me awhile to get used to. 

[Crossroads]

Gotta educate those people that we don't have Tamarack we have Western Larch. Like we don't have 'Red Fir' it's Doug Fir.

And there's Jack Pine, whos proper name is Lodgepole Pine, Bull Pine is Yellow Pine.

I had someone telling me the other day that jack pine and black pine are the same. I'd never heard of black pine 🤷‍♂️

[beenthere]

Young ponderosa pine used to be referred to as black jack pine. May contribute to some of the name confusion. 

[hacknchop]

I tink it name come from de same guy he ask me to cut im some 2x4 an inch tick.

[Crossroads]

I tink it name come from de same guy he ask me to cut im some 2x4 an inch tick.

That'll make ya scratch your head 

[donbj]

Gotta educate those people that we don't have Tamarack we have Western Larch. Like we don't have 'Red Fir' it's Doug Fir.

And there's Jack Pine, whos proper name is Lodgepole Pine, Bull Pine is Yellow Pine.

I had someone telling me the other day that jack pine and black pine are the same. I'd never heard of black pine 🤷‍♂️

It's black pine after the fire goes through,

[Satamax]

Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.

It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.

That's interesting, hardly anyone calls it western larch, most people around here call it Tamarack. As for we're the trees came from, I don't know, they were trucked in is all I know. I didn't see any of the normal signs of stress in the wood like lifting, bowing or pulling. The only thing I had was pitch buildup. Interesting thing though, the last blade I ran on Saturday was only on the mill for a few cuts and had quite a bit of buildup on it when I pulled it off and coiled it up. I put it in the pickup last night to run on today's job. It rained last night and all of the buildup was broke down and whipped off easily. So, maybe diesel isn't the best thing to use on tamarack?

I was stripping bark off a few hybrid larch poles cut last winter.  This stripping was early this summer.  The wood/bark was still so juicy I had flecks of sap all over my face and glasses.  Really wet stuff.  Smelled good too.

Too bad I never got to the other 400 or so that are still laying in piles.  Wonder when/how I'll get to all of that, especially given I can thin an equal number of stems out of those same stands this coming winter!

Larch is rich in a polysaccharide (like a whole bunch of sugar molecules chemically hooked together) called arabino-galactan.  This stuff also makes the wood less suitable for pulping, and a given amount of larch pulpwood must be mixed with a given amount of other wood types for that process to work.  This same substance is extracted and used as a dietary health aid for the human gut.  It acts as a soluble fiber.  I use it and think it beneficial.

And yes, this substance is concentrated near the butt.

Well, sugars cannot be diluted by diesel. So my mix of water, washing up liquid and diesel might function better because it dilutes sugars as well as lubricating the blade with the diesel. 
HTH. 

[Crossroads]

I believe your right, I might put some water in the mix next time. 

[Brucer]

Larix Occidentalis - aka Western Larch:

When it behaves, it's a dream to saw -- cuts like butter .
When it misbehaves it's a pain in the butt :(.
You never know for sure what you've got until it starts to dry :.

I use 50/50 water and windshield washer fluid, and I crank the water valve wide open. Literally flood the blade.

With a difficult log (butt end, 24" diameter) I once clamped a 6' length of Western Red Cedar onto my extension. At the end of the cut I'd keep the carriage moving until I reached the Cedar, then I'd make a 3-4" cut to clean off the blade.

I've lost about 1/4 of the Larch I've sawn due to ring shake. I can spot ring shake in D-Fir, WRC, & pine logs, but could never see it in Larch. It would show up after the wood started shrinking.

I've only sawn other people's Larch, with lots of warning about what could happen.

[mapleack]

Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.

It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.

That's interesting, hardly anyone calls it western larch, most people around here call it Tamarack. As for we're the trees came from, I don't know, they were trucked in is all I know. I didn't see any of the normal signs of stress in the wood like lifting, bowing or pulling. The only thing I had was pitch buildup. Interesting thing though, the last blade I ran on Saturday was only on the mill for a few cuts and had quite a bit of buildup on it when I pulled it off and coiled it up. I put it in the pickup last night to run on today's job. It rained last night and all of the buildup was broke down and whipped off easily. So, maybe diesel isn't the best thing to use on tamarack?

Crossroads, I use lots of pinesol and water cutting the larch we have here in Pennsylvania.

[JDowns71]

Found this article to be a good read. 

https://www.woodbusiness.ca/for-the-love-of-larch-1593/

[Crossroads]

I used quite a bit of pinesol in my water before I went to straight diesel. Looks like I may be going back to it when larch is involved. 

Thank you for the article, definitely a good read!

[wisconsitom]

Yup thanks for that, JDowns.  Goes to show the issues associated with drying the stuff, which I've always heard could be challenging.

Larch wood can be a great product, but the catch-22 is this;  Will mills do the special setup for sawing and drying larch, knowing the supply is intermittent and the species less well-known than many others.....and will land owners go heavy into planting this species knowing most mills are not set up to handle it?

In all other respects, it's smooth sailing! lol

[wisconsitom]

Randy d, if you're still here....what are you guys sawing your tamarack into?

[barbender]

Before I started working in the woods, I understand the local Potlatch stud mill was running some tamarack just trying to get enough wood supply. As I've said before, I've sawn tamarack that was great, and tamarack that was horrible. It would be hard for them to make a spec on a commercial scale that would prevent them from getting the misbehaving stuff. For instance, their current spec on pine bolts would be something like " 6" min, 20" max, no flares, rot or large open knots and well trimmed". Kind of hard to spec a max taper or no left hand grain. On one job a couple of years ago, we cut a patch of tamarack that had a lot of bolts, which were sorted for the pallet mill. One of the trucks somehow got it confused with Jack Pine (they were good sized, 12-16" bolts) and hauled it to Potlatch. They must've made a good Jack Pine impersonation, because they took it at the mill as such and ran her through. They didn't catch it until it made it to the graders😂 This batch was nice stuff and went through the mill great they said, and employees there were going to buy it as it turned out so nice, apparently. So no harm, no foul🤷‍♂️😊

[Satamax]

It, it's quite amusing, here we would like to cut something else from time to time.

Most of what grows here is larch.  (larix deciua) On the italian side of the border(sansicario, for example) They have something slightly different. The larches have falling "branchelets"  (is that a word in english?)

Well the main stem of the branch is on top, and all the little stems growing from it, are falling, a bit like a willow. That's weird for me.  

Anyway, i quite like the larch. I work with local, russian and austrian stuff.

Here's two pics of what i am doing with the stuff i milled at the begining of july.