Watering Wood

[DonW]

Are there millers here who as a matter of corse water wood? It means keeping wood to be milled in a submerged of semi-submerged condition for a given time prior to milling.

[stavebuyer]

Never submerged, but with sprinklers from lawn and garden on a small pile to a few million feet under full-fledged irrigation set-ups. Works wonders but not for white woods.

[DonW]

I mean under water for a minimum of six months, (spruce, for example), to indefinitely, (elm). Certain light colored woods, maple for example, suffer from watering and holly will self destruct. Though I water ash religiously.

[bigblockyeti]

For those who used to watch Ax Men, Shelby Stanga would keep cypress logs in his "bank" which was nothing more than a gator infested mill pond by all accounts.  Cypress is obviously a bit different than some of the other species mentioned from a submersion tolerance standpoint.  I would venture to guess many (most?) of the more common species regularly cut for commercial lumber wouldn't fair well underwater for 6+ months.

[DonW]

I can't think of a needled wood species that I wouldn't wager would not benefit from the treatment. They could exist but not among the conventional ones.

I've known 25 year waterd elm to fetch a premium.

Cherry and other fruit woods also are suited to watering.

If you are familiar with the Czech carpenter PETR RUZICKA who watered oak beams to restore the. Church tower in Pargue then it's clear oak is improved by watering. It's not really speculative since there are plenty of studies and examples making positive claims.

Like I mentioned,  for me watering ash for from six months to a year, (having no patients to wait longer) is my sop for tool handle material.

[Don P]

Continue

If you are familiar with the Czech carpenter PETR RUZICKA who watered oak beams to restore the. Church tower in Pargue then it's clear oak is improved by watering. It's not really speculative since there are plenty of studies and examples making positive claims.

No, but I'm interested, got links?
The reason we pond or sprinkle a pile here is to deny fungi, usually bluestain in pine, oxygen.

[DonW]

I really should have links now and I was expecting it so will make an effort even though my computer so outdated it hardly loads those websites like the article on J-store by RUZICKA

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4126403

Maybe it loads for you but what I'd really like to find is the YouTube show showing him diving to attach rigging to haul the wood out. So cool.

Will plod on...

Still the benefits are long term to nclude greater stability in use and infestation resistance and faster air drying. These things, even without external confirmation seem to me self evident. The only downside being commercial in an industrial production context.

[Don P]

I'm not opinionated one way or the other, but I don't do self evident  :D
After signing up, figuring out how, and reading through that. That was a paper on axe marks. Interesting but keep looking.

My FIL remembered the practice from his boyhood in Holland but he was asking me why they did it. Other than our reasons for keeping it fresh, I couldn't explain the reasoning.

[DonW]

They say with ChatGPT you can now get insto translations.

https://edepot.wur.nl/114117

But then you have that Dutch speaking relative to help relieve your scepticism.

It's one quick result. 

My reference book in English with short article on watering is not where I am at the moment.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is a Dutch thing much like Moon Wood in Switzerland and Germany.

[DonW]

Self evident, ok a bit overstated, I'll give it to you. But plausible is a reasonable place to begin. (And then you can learn from there) :laugh:

[wisconsitom]

I believe peeler logs sometimes get soaked.  Town I grew up in there was a veneer plant that made cheese boxes.  They'd soak the elm logs or whatever they were using prior to processing.

[Don P]

Educate me, what do you know and are thinking this does?

[customsawyer]

My understanding on watering logs is it has a few benefits. Most bad things that happen to logs sitting in a yard can be minimized by doing it. The water lowers the risk of end checking, bacteria/fungus growth and will minimize rotting. Most of the bacteria type stuff need a certain amount of air and moisture to grow. By keeping the logs wet there isn't enough air for the bad things to grow. Lots of the big mills around here keep the sprinklers going year around. I've heard that if you put enough of them in your pond it can be bad for your fish. Don't know if it is true or how many logs per acre of pond it would take to harm the fish.

[Don P]

Careful with the names of the culprits here.
Fungi need air, bacteria can be aerobic or anaerobic. You can bacterially infect logs in water. Watering or ponding keeps the air off the surface denying fungi oxygen.

I'll take a pass on opening an AI chatbot. I guess I am old school  :D

I translated enough of the abstract to see a pretty low level and lost interest in working for that.

Extractives very often protect the wood and all depending stabilize it. Clean cellulose is cotton, paper is also pretty well rinsed, with both your jeans and the saggy tarpaper on a wet roof, cellulose still shrinks and swells in response to moisture. I'm skeptical that removing the inerts changes the behavior of the wood substance itself.

I'm interested and in no hurry, but would like to see some peer reviewed real science, in English .

[Walnut Beast]

Hurricane of '38 wood. Men at war. Women ran
the mill sawing blowdown timber.



 

[DonW]

I believe peeler logs sometimes get soaked.  Town I grew up in there was a veneer plant that made cheese boxes.  They'd soak the elm logs or whatever they were using prior to processing.

RrQuote from: wisconsitom on Tue Feb 07 2023 23:21:13 GMT-0700 (MST)

I believe peeler logs sometimes get soaked.  Town I grew up in there was a veneer plant that made cheese boxes.  They'd soak the elm logs or whatever they were using prior to processing.

Cutting veneer is specifically mentioned in the link as benefitting from watering. The bark loosens in the water and is easily removed and logs can be peeled right away without steam treating.

Careful with the names of the culprits here.
Fungi need air, bacteria can be aerobic or anaerobic. You can bacterially infect logs in water. Watering or ponding keeps the air off the surface denying fungi oxygen.

I'll take a pass on opening an AI chatbot. I guess I am old school  :D

I translated enough of the abstract to see a pretty low level and lost interest in working for that.

Extractives very often protect the wood and all depending stabilize it. Clean cellulose is cotton, paper is also pretty well rinsed, with both your jeans and the saggy tarpaper on a wet roof, cellulose still shrinks and swells in response to moisture. I'm skeptical that removing the inerts changes the behavior of the wood substance itself.

I'm interested and in no hurry, but would like to see some peer reviewed real science, in English .

The question's a matter of an alteration or reduction of the woods reactivity to the environment rather than an elimination of the characteristics of cellulose, which will continue to responde to moisture, just differently, (less), after watering. Take the folk remedy for a loosened axe handle of dunking the axe in a bucket of water. Once the wood has regained equilibrium the problem the treatment was ment to address in fact is worse. The wood initially swells but then contracts even more from where it was before the soaking. 

The article also addressed the loss of sap (extractive medium), in watered pine and claims that has no effect on the wood's durability...

[Don P]

On the plus side, that turned up that the forest products labs search function wasn't working, they emailed back this morning that they have IT on it. I'm hoping they have some good info on ponding time and degrade. What I have found is stagnant water is bacterial soup, log degrade.

[Ron Wenrich]

I know a logger that buried some ash veneer underground.  It was in the shade, so the sun didn't strike it.  He held it through the summer months and sold it during the fall when the ash markets opened back up.

Are you looking to preserve the logs by ponding them or for to gain some appearance factors?  End treating will help preserve most species without any degrade.

The only logs I saw that were watered was at a handle plant.  They did it to keep the powder post beetle away. 

[DonW]

That'd be good to see what your source has. My search led to no end of frustration, mainly because of my computer's limitations. So I put it off till I'm better situated but will pick up the persuit then.

For now, concerning the stagnant water, running water is the ideal condition, sure but here is the pond my sawer in Holland uses for watering,

Snagged off his website. I have lumber stored at my place from here and was even with him when he sawed some apple for me from the swamp. And it smelled just like what it was, from the swamp. The wood is fine however as it stands now.f

[DonW]

I know a logger that buried some ash veneer underground.  It was in the shade, so the sun didn't strike it.  He held it through the summer months and sold it during the fall when the ash markets opened back up.

Are you looking to preserve the logs by ponding them or for to gain some appearance factors?  End treating will help preserve most species without any degrade.

The only logs I saw that were watered was at a handle plant.  They did it to keep the powder post beetle away.

From my perspective watering is only secondarily a matter of expediency. Primarily it is a treatment, with some of the hoped for, ( proclaimed) enhancements to include, faster seasoning, better workability, increased long term dimensional stability, (including a reduction in end checking) and resistance to infestation.

[beenthere]

sure but here is the pond my sawer in Holland uses for watering,

Holland as in the country Holland in the Netherlands?  

[DonW]

Yep. The barn at the back tells you it's Friesland though where they might not agree.

[DonW]

I the absence of direct access I've been going through this

https://www.shr.nl/uploads/pdf-files/2006-04-20-eindrapport-gewaterd-grenen.pdf

which is a study rather than a survey like the previous link, and Following the notes to references in English.For example this one on the effect of ponding on water absorption

Google Scholar

Which the first paper uses for corroborating their own claim or finding that watered sap wood, (Fir,Spruce) takes up water faster and releases it faster.

[DonW]

Preparations to catch the Spring run-off
F

[beenthere]

Missing what "preparations" referred to here. Maybe snow?