Maintaining the state park look

[livemusic]

Anyone know how state parks keep their 'look?' If you say 'state park look,' what does that mean? Seems to me it means no or very little understory. What is their reason for achieving this? Is it because a lot of the public likes to see trees but not brush or thick sapling growth? 

How do parks maintain this 'look?' Do they use mechanical means or fire? Anyone have any insight on the 'state park look?' Funny, I google that term and get nothing. Maybe it is called something else? "State park like" also gets nothing.

[doc henderson]

I had a tree guy state that when bidding some tree trimming for us.  It just meant taking off lower limbs and dead wood/branches and cutting back outgrowing limbs to make a canopy that looked manicured some.  state parks have crews that maintain things.  often it is in a campground so there are trees that folks can park camper beside and below.  at campgrounds there are usually areas that are dense and natural and other areas with no debris on the ground.

[JJ]

Campers looking for firewood and dry deadwood for fire starting.
Call it continuously browsed over

      JJ

[TroyC]

I volunteered at a state park in the Keys. We trimmed limbs and branches even with the board railing around the campsites. Weedeating to keep the campsites clear. A couple walkways where people walk were cleared so the vegetation would not interfere with walking. Other than that most was left to nature. There was no firewood or campsite fires permitted because the tree roots in the Keys are very close to the ground surface.

[Andries]

On our lake cabin roads, us owners need to do our own roadway maintenance. 
That includes taking off the lower branches, deadwood and brush at roadside. Especially important on the inside curve of the road, as it allows a driver to see on-coming traffic. 
I find that a limbing/pruning saw on a 10 foot ash pole is the tool of choice. A Stihl brush saw clears the ground level stuff, the pole saw gives the old logging trails that raised canopy park-like look. 
It's a fair bit of work - might be best suited to an older guy that likes to spend time in the woods with his dog.

[doc henderson]

Our camper is 13' 6" tall.  we have done our street.  lots of old trees.  with neighbors' permission, I pull the gooseneck behind the truck to stand on and use my gas Stihl pole saw and get all limbs above that.  knocked the antenna off our first trip home.  It is hard to tell how high it is from the cab of the truck.  cut limbs go on the trailer.  Most in town have no way to do this themselves but could be asked to hire it done if they do not allow me to do it.  we have had trucks refuse to deliver on our street due to the limbs over the roadway.

[thecfarm]

You mean like this?




This takes A LOT of time. Not so much work, but time. Well I say work, it took work to get it like this. But every spring I have to pick up branches and I do mean branches!!!!
I find a lawn mower works best to keep it clean looking. I pick up what I don't think the lawn mower will chew up and then I mow it and give it a park look.

[livemusic]

On our lake cabin roads, us owners need to do our own roadway maintenance.
That includes taking off the lower branches, deadwood and brush at roadside. Especially important on the inside curve of the road, as it allows a driver to see on-coming traffic.
I find that a limbing/pruning saw on a 10 foot ash pole is the tool of choice. A Stihl brush saw clears the ground level stuff, the pole saw gives the old logging trails that raised canopy park-like look.
It's a fair bit of work - might be best suited to an older guy that likes to spend time in the woods with his dog.

Hello, that comment is interesting... this ash pole, does it come from a sapling or cut from a piece of lumber? How wide? Why ash? We hardly have any ash around here but I know it is strong and I suppose it is light. Reason I ask is someone gave me a pruning saw on a pole, lol. But it's a steel pole and a bit heavy.

[Andries]

There's still a fair bit of ash in this part of Manitoba and Ontario.
I made my own because it's light, strong and springy. It's about the same dimensions and shape as a hockey stick handle - a fair bit longer though.
I'm kind of a gangly guy, at 6 foot two. So a 10 foot pole will let me reach up high enough to elevate the local native trees.
A one stud positioning screw, and a bolt with wingnut secures any old pruning sawblade to the end of the pole.
 Imitating what's on the end of your steel pole would be the way to go.

[SwampDonkey]

Fiskars sell pole saws on telescoping fiberglass poles.  Don't leave one in the woods because black bears like to chew on them. 

[47sawdust]

I do a little each year,after the snow is gone and before new growth begins. My tools of choice are an Echo clearing saw,a 12volt Milwaukee Hatchet,and a 40 volt Oregon pole saw.I usually run out of gas before any of the 3 of them quit running.
I like to open up the under story,it makes me feel good,hardly anyone else seems to notice.

[Old Greenhorn]

Andries, that is a neat idea and I am going to steal it forthwith! That is, as soon as I can find an Ash pole that is sound. EVERYTHING here is dead, but there are still some good sticks. I have the Fiskars that SD is talking about which was given to me by a neighbor after he ran over it. I fixed, and shortened it and it works pretty good and I like the clipper, but frankly if you take the branch at the truck, you don't need the clipper.
At any rate, I am gonna try this when I find 'the right stick' (which sounds like a Tom Cruise movie, but it isn't).
 And I am with 47, I like that feeling i get when the understory is clear, I don't know why and nobody else cares, but I'm happy.

[livemusic]

I do a little each year,after the snow is gone and before new growth begins. My tools of choice are an Echo clearing saw,a 12volt Milwaukee Hatchet,and a 40 volt Oregon pole saw.I usually run out of gas before any of the 3 of them quit running.
I like to open up the under story,it makes me feel good,hardly anyone else seems to notice.

I resemble your remarks! Do you do this for a small lot or acreage?

I was considering one of those battery "hatchets" for clearing saplings recently, Milwaukee brand because I have batteries, but didn't because mine are 18v and the Milwaukee hatchet uses 12v. A battery hatchet makes sense, because I often use an Echo 2511t chainsaw because it is so light. Those hatchets probably weigh about the same (shows how light the 2511t is!) but you'd enjoy no concern about cranking. I have the other two machine types you use. And also machetes!

[thecfarm]

I had the guy that use to truck for me ask me, That don't grow like that, does it?
As least he noticed.

[Andries]

CFarm, your place looks better than parklike - partly 'cause there's no tourists to be seen.
Tom and SD, I started off with the Fisker's on the fibreglass pole and found the whole flimsy affair rattled. Here I'm trying to have a nice quiet time elevating the bush and this things rattling in my hands like I'm waving castanets around.
I'm trying to sneak up on some of those bears, dang it. 
The ash pole came from milling a tree service ash trunk in Winnipeg which I trimmed down to a comfortable size with a ripping fence on a tablesaw and a bit of work with a spokeshave.
And that same tree service, (my sons) spotted me a nice, long, Silky brand blade, which had more or less the same attachment points as that musical Fiskers pole. It had a few teeth fried off by contact with an electrical cable, but was perfectly serviceable for what I needed.
It's quick and fast; start at the top of a slim tree, and each branch is only 4 inch pull on the saw for it to drop. I leave the fallen branches where they drop, starting as high up as I can reach and work my way down. Those bare, dry little branches turn into mulch on the ground after two seasons, even up here in the Great White North.
A sunny day, a sandwich and a water bottle, the saw and the pooch.
Can't think of a better way to spend a day out in the woods.

[Southside]

Y'all need some cows. They will do the work for you and you can eat them when they are done.  Managed properly cattle will absolutely lift up all of the low hanging branches to 7' or so, they will strip off any poison ivy, and hit green briar, saplings, and young black berries hard enough that they will die off.  Their hoof action helps to incorporate the leaf litter into the soil which allow grasses to sprout where the sun hits the ground.  

You can't just leave them there and forget about them or you will loose trees, but with rotational grazing under the canopy you can get that "park like" look. i will try to get some pictures as I have several groups with woods access right now.  

[Machinebuilder]

Livemusic

if you have a Milwaukee 18V Hacksall they make very good pruning blades for them.

I spent time this winter clearing out about 150' of brush and trees so my sunflower patch gets more sun.
I buy a bag of seeds sold for birdseed and hand spread it over about 1/3 acre.

I can sit in my barn watch my dogs run and when the sunflowers are ready there seems to be thousands of yellow and black chickidees.

[livemusic]

Livemusic

if you have a Milwaukee 18V Hacksall they make very good pruning blades for them.

I spent time this winter clearing out about 150' of brush and trees so my sunflower patch gets more sun.
I buy a bag of seeds sold for birdseed and hand spread it over about 1/3 acre.

I can sit in my barn watch my dogs run and when the sunflowers are ready there seems to be thousands of yellow and black chickidees.

I actually do also have a Milwaukee Hackzall. Just a few days ago, I grabbed it and tried to cut something and it was pitiful. I don't know how it got so dull! Then I wondered why did I buy this thing? I assumed that I bought it to cut sapling roots around my yard but it cut so pitiful this time, I figured I'd just sell it. Beats me, maybe it's another blade type on it that is not good for green wood. Regarding what I now need, I figured one of those battery hatchets would cut a sapling faster than the Hackzall and when you are bending over to cut, speed matters. My memory is failing me on use of that Hackzall in the past.

[barbender]

Andries, relating the proper size of Ash pole to a hockey stick is very Canadian of you😂 

[beenthere]

livemusic
A new blade for the hackzall should get  you back in business. 

[Andries]

Andries, relating the proper size of Ash pole to a hockey stick is very Canadian of you😂

Well, I just went with something everyone be able to relate to.
Like Manitoba or Minnesota or . . . oh oh, the op is in Louisiana!

[SwampDonkey]

Only in Canada. Hickory Sticks. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A1GOUgvmlE

[barbender]

 It's been my experience that while most folks equate the "park-like" look with well tended, or healthy, that is not necessarily the case. If your aim is for your woods to look like a park, then great. However, if one of your goals is to have good wildlife habitat, having the understory cleaned up to the park like level is often the opposite of good habitat. 

 About 15 years ago, the State of Minnesota partnered with a forest agency in Finland to see what information and techniques could be shared. Some foresters from MN visited sites in Finland, what I remember them reporting back is that from a strictly timber standpoint, the Finnish forests were beautiful. Intensively managed and manicured, but also devoid of wildlife. I think I remember the term, "sterile" being used to describe them. 

 The Finnish foresters that visited Minnesota were taken aback by the diversity of wildlife in the forests they toured. I didn't hear it from them, but other Finns I've spoken to give me the impression that they think about our forest management kind of in the same way we think about the neighbor that has 3 broken down cars in the front yard, that hasn't been mowed all summer😁

 I've shared the story before, we had a huge windstorm that went through in 2012. We had a nice area of mature basswood and bur oak on our property that got ravaged. It made a real mess. Things being what they are, I never cleaned any of it up. The basswood blew over with the rootball attached, which are standing 6'-8' tall. The trees didn't die, but put up new shoots all along their trunks. This had the effect (I later learned) of creating corridors, which contractors that do deer habitat will charge you big money to create.

 Deer use this area to bed, and feed,and just hang out in general. They feel secure because of the cover apparently. We also have a lot of ruffed grouse back there. It's the worst looking spot on our property🤷

[thecfarm]

How right you are.
I keep another place kinda cleaned up, but don't pick up the branches like in the picture. But I have cut out the small fir, Fir don't grow good on my land, I want something else to grow.
I feed the deer right at that place. There is just about an open field on the other side.
The deer are waiting for me at night to feed them, but they wait in the neighbor's woods where there in cover for them to hide. The woods they come through to get the food is an open area.

[woodroe]

Interesting read.
 I consider my small 24 ac. park-like IMO more because of the trails
that criss-cross through it more than anything.
 Some roads for tractor or small truck and
some foot trails.
 Some pine stands with minimal undergrowth , other areas all hardwood and then mixed stands with fir undergrowth. Basically a mixed bag
 Agree that
many parks have those bare forest floors due to firewood scavenging.
 It does look cool but never gonna happen here.
Agree with barbender on what the leave it alone approach does to enhance wildlife
habitation.  ,standing dead, deadfall , blowdowns all help to create wildlife sanctuaries.
Not always the prettiest but beneficial.
Have a few acres right now that looks like a disaster zone down in a gulley hard to get to.
It's going to stay that way. Each to their own

[barbender]

 I'm not saying that folks should maintain their property one way or the other. Only that sometimes, people will do things on their property that is contradictory to what their goals actually are, because they don't know any better. 

 I've worked on private timber sales where the timber was being removed to provide wildlife habitat- then the landowner wanted what was left to "look like a park". Well maybe that would be the way to go if you had open country species like bison and elk, but not for whitetails and ruffed grouse😊

 

[Andries]

Barbender, I have relatives in Europe that come to visit from time to time. You're exactly right in your comments about the reaction to North American forest lands. "Oh my! Not tidy. So much work to do!"
But if those Finns had seen a southern yellow pine plantation in Georgia, they might just feel right at home.
I remember being absolutely gob-smacked when I saw forests in northern Europe that had number tags on each and every tree. At family reunions we all got a real laugh about the extreme differences between the boreal forest in Canada and the manicured forests of Europe.
I guess it's all about the end goal and the right tool for the right job. Swamp donkey is swinging a clearing Saw for TSI work in the Maritimes. Cfarm is getting it picture perfect because it's close to his house. I am using my pole saw for clearing sight lines in the curves around reclaimed old logging roads. Live music might be thinking about parklands, trailers and camping.
 Everyone has their own toolbelt. 
The only system that sure as heck wouldn't work, up here anyway, are Southside's cows. There'd be an explosion in the bear and wolf population and not a cow to be seen anywhere.

[SwampDonkey]

Where I cut out firewood and thin, it's sorta looks parkish for a year or two until I get new aspen sprouts. Then the moose move in and chew aspen suckers, the odd deer around, but we have like 3 or 4 deer around here you hardly see. I took a video awhile ago before I started an area, no undergrowth, not even a hazel or a currant bush.  Stuff coming now. About 10 years ago I remember talking with a moose hunter I never knew, not from here, and he said he saw 7 or 8 deer sitting where he was at. I said I've been here for over 50 years and I've never seen more than 3 or 4 together ever. Anything is possible, but I'm thinking BS to. Same deer 2 or 3 times.  Go up the Tobique River watershed in winter, any time they were cutting wood you could count 50 deer or more in one bunch, no trouble at all. 

[Ianab]

I have relatives in Europe that come to visit from time to time. You're exactly right in your comments about the reaction to North American forest lands. "Oh my! Not tidy. So much work to do!"

They would freak out seeing NZ natural forest then. 

This is the Rotokare nature reserve, it's a local fenced off area with no introduced pests, they have even cleared if of mice now. They do have a nice "park" area at the carpark, lawn and picnic tables etc, and they keep the walking tracks clear. But this is basically what the forest looks like with no browsing animals (goats / possums / deer etc) 



The perimeter fence. Farmland and cows on one side, native forest on the other. 

[barbender]

 Andries, I have it on good authority that the Finns were disgusted by the condition of SYP forests in Georgia, too😂 Way too messy🤷

 I think the mindset is more one of, for them it is a limited natural resource that they need to maximize, and they can't understand what seems to be a total hands off management approach. I would agree with them in that we don't hold our forests in high enough regard.

[Ianab]

I guess if you are "farming" trees, then you want it to look like a "farm"? Tidy rows, no weeds etc. 

[Machinebuilder]

When I bought my 26 acres it had been used as cattle pasture for many years.
I tried renting it for horses for a short time.
I have not had any animals on it for about 15 years. the wooded areas the understory has grown tremendously.
I see more wildlife now than  I have at any time before. I have several trailcam pics with 4 deer. I see red fox ocasionally.
The dogs stay busy chasing all the small animals.

What I want to do is work at reducing the invasive plants, Bradford pear, autumn olive, honeysuckle, different vines that climb and kill trees (I will leave the wild grapes).

[B.C.C. Lapp]

Well, my son works on the maintenance crew for one of the largest state parks in Pa.  I asked him what the term "park like" meant to him.    He shrugged and said "Well to me that would  probably mean underfunded and understaffed."   

I'm pretty sure that aint what the OP was looking for.

[NewYankeeSawmill]

Andries, relating the proper size of Ash pole to a hockey stick is very Canadian of you😂

! I was thinking the same thing. Leave it to a Canuk to reference something via the size of a hockey-stick!     

[thecfarm]

Them Finns must have plenty of time. Or plenty of kids. 
As I said, that picture takes A LOT of time.
But it's a labor of love.
My father started that more then 50 years ago.
He cut everything that was smaller than 4 inches and made brush piles. I helped him for many years picking up branches to keep it looking good. This was before the tractor with the loader. Now I go in and put branches into the loader and keep it clean that way. Takes many trips to clean it up.
I started with a weed wacker to keep the small stuff down. I found out a lawn mower works the best.
This is really a good piece of land, as far as  goes.
This was a field many years ago. I hauled off the so called stone wall.
I can only see 2  in that picture!!! Not many places on my land I can take a picture like that. 
I only keep maybe a 1/2 acre like that. I have a 500 foot driveway and that is on the right side coming up. The Finns would like that. Just don't go outback and see how the rest of the woods look. You will also find all my junk too. 

[barbender]

 The sense I get is that the Finns regard their forests as almost sacred. Not in the sense of worshipping them, but a precious resource and one of the few that they have.

 My buddy that spent a lot of time with Finns (he worked worked with 3 of them down in Georgia) is going on a trip to Finland to visit one of them in a few weeks. He'll have a lot more insights into Finnish foresty and culture in general when he gets back, no doubt.

[SwampDonkey]

Takes 6-10 years for a place to look clean after I cut it out with a clearing saw to space it. Then the undergrowth is gone to, almost like a plantation in a field. Branches on leave trees begin to die off but takes probably 10 more years for that in fir and spruce ground. Hardwoods prune up quicker naturally. The acre of y. birch behind the house is like a park, planted in 2001 from plugs. No undergrowth, just wild flowers in the spring. Trout lily right now.

[NewYankeeSawmill]

I've seen a bunch of folks locally hire one of those Forestry/Grinder/Mulcher heads on a skid-steer? Chews the snot out of anything 4" or smaller all the way to the ground, leaves nothing but big tree's and a layer of mulch behind. Beautiful when they're done... I'm tempted to hire a guy for a day, but $$$!!!

[livemusic]

This has been a learning experience over several years. About eight years. Still learning, lol. I am not seeking park-like like a state park or clean as can be. But a bit of that look appeals to me around trails. I have had to ponder this a LOT to even figure out what I want. Over these first months of 2024, I have spent as much time on my land than I ever have. Several times a week, I do some work there, and sometimes twice a day.

It took me a few years to build the trails I have. Very nice hiking/ATV trails. My tract is hardwood and that's not common here. The vast majority of land here is now planted pine. I don't care for plantation forestry and certainly don't like the look. Especially if they planted it in rows with mathematical precision. Yuck. I like forests, not plantations. These pine stands seem sterile to me. Not good for wildlife. No variety. Just pine trees. I understand profit coming into people's mindset, I'm a businessman, but this is not my motivation for my tract.

I am still not there yet (thinking-wise) but I am closer. The hard thing is coming to terms with what I want. Because I'll be dead sooner than I care to think (age 70) and then what? Or what if a forest fire comes through? I could work myself to a frazzle for the rest of my life and it could all go up in smoke. But you can't really plan for that. But... it's a reason for not letting it dominate you.

I do come back to this thought often... I do enjoy being there and working. I guess it's a hobby. It's certainly physical. I haul some firewood out quite often. Right now, taking sassafras, as 100% of all of them have died. I do have some saplings coming back, hope for their survival. I like sassafras firewood, super easy to split, very light, very attractive wood, nice flame. Polar opposite from oak.

I have big trees, them being, say, 60-100 years old. It was cut for pine probably 30-40 years ago; thank goodness my cousin cut only the pines. I still have plenty left for the diversity they bring. The species are oak, hickory, sweetgum, black gum, red maple, pine, cedar, dogwood, ironwood. With a few other low-numbered species.

Right now, I am still moving forward to three things... 'cleaning' up the corridor right around the trails of saplings and vines so it has a bit of a spacious look... thinning some undesirables... and crop tree release. A crop tree being a tree I hope to help survive and thrive. White oaks, for sure, and dogwoods, for sure. My tract is gorgeous in March with all the dogwoods blooming. Thinning being taking ugly trees with no value to me, and trees growing too close. For instance, if I have two or three white oaks all right together, seems that two should go. Or a sweetgum right next to a white oak. And... traditional crop tree release. My thinking is that just doing the above will open up everything quite a bit.

Parts of my tract are so thick, it's impossible to go through it. Walking or even with a tractor. You'd need a mulcher to go through. At this time, I am thinking I will leave some of that for wildlife. There are vines all over, and I sever those regularly. I know they have some wildlife benefit but they bug me, choking the trees. 

A couple of parts of my tract are naturally open with big trees and it's so nice there, it made me want more of it! I am not sure why it's like that, I suppose it's just a tighter canopy and more big trees. Anyway, I'm going to keep at it until I change my mind, lol. However, summer is close, and I can't really do anything during warm months, it requires cool temps. Generally, below 70 degrees.

I have a forester coming soon to look it over and give me advice. Still formulating the gameplan.

[Machinebuilder]

This is the view from my barn, I cleared the brush and trees from the HUGE white oak to the Tulip poplar to let the afternoon sun hit my sunflowers.
Most times in the fall I plant a food plot mix or maybe some turnips.

to the left is what it looked like before. There are a lot of invasive plants that i want to work at removing.

[YellowHammer]

Around here, the "state park look" I guess could be defined as what allows the workers to drive a pickup truck around and not scratch the paint or bust the cabs out of their tractors.  Most of the understory is removed with articulated mowers or skid steer mulchers like mine.   

There is always the problem of cleaning things too much, losing all the undergrowth "rabbitat" and "tuurkeytat."  I had that problem when I bought this farm, very little wildlife, I called in a Forester, he told me to leave more stuff not mowed, and within a few years, critters started coming back. 

[Andries]

Most of us get here, don't we? Right?
Thinking beyond ourselves and beyond the short span of years that we have here.
Spend enough time on land in one place, and commit ourselves to bringing the best possible management to it.
LiveMusic said it well: 
" . . I am still not there yet (thinking-wise) but I am closer. The hard thing is coming to terms with what I want. Because I'll be dead sooner than I care to think (age 70) and then what? Or what if a forest fire comes through? I could work myself to a frazzle for the rest of my life and it could all go up in smoke. But you can't really plan for that. But... it's a reason for not letting it dominate you. I do come back to this thought often... I do enjoy being there and working. . . . "

Flash over to me cooling my heels at the natural resources office in Kenora, ON, waiting for my biologist buddy Barry to finish up some tedious marathon meeting. I wander down the hall to see a wildfire tech hunched over forestry maps. 
Asked: Hey, Jimmy how's it going? 
Answer: Man! I thought I was mapping out forest fire hazards and it turns out I'm mapping out soil types! 
He'd discovered that he could overlay a soils map with a watershed map, and his his fire hazard areas were plain as day. The forest types were largely determined by those two main truths.
And similarly, what we'd like our forestry lands to be is determined mostly by their environment. 

I really like reading this thread that LiveMusic started, because it shows just how diverse we on are on this Forum. Diverse in our experience, and outlook, and degree of being the decision makers as stewards of our lands. We help each other come to terms with what we want. 
In this philosophical frame of mind I'm in tonight, it seems that is one of the major ties that bind us, here on Jeff's Forum. Whether it's a guy in Vermont helping a guy in California with timber framing calculations, or a lumber business model that someone in Australia is commenting on, we're helping each other out.

Hanging on my fridge, as a daily reminder, the old Greek proverb: "A society grows strong when old men plant oak trees that they know they will never enjoy the shade of." 

[Ianab]

One point I'd make is that people have different aims in their forest management. 

It might be financial, or conservation, or aesthetics, or hunting etc.  None of those aims are "wrong", and you might be balancing different aims, or applying them to different land areas. I can 100% see why you might like the tidy "park" look around your house. It will take some work to maintain, because it will be trying to revert to forest of some sort. 

The pics I posted above are the 100% conservation style. Kill pests and invasive weeds, and leave the forest to do what it will. Awesome place for the native wildlife.  But 100% commercial is plantation, and growing trees as a crop like corn. Not "wrong", any more than growing corn is "wrong", but it doesn't exactly fit with the other objectives. Or mix it up as you see fit. others have commented about how leaving undergrowth encourages wildlife, and of course natural regenerating of your forest. When a tree dies or falls in a forest there are 20 saplings under it racing to take it's place. When a tree dies in a park, you have to plant a new one.