4 post vs cantilever saw mill

geils · May 16, 2009, 07:46:31 AM

Decided to jump in with a new saw. Need information as to whether a 4 post machine like the Baker or Cooks is better than the Woodmizer Cantilever or vise versus. (I know, a can of worms here) It's going to be a big saw that is most likely moved around a fair amount. So the question comes down to set up and accuracy after moving. We won't be set up on a concrete pad someplace. Need to be able to set this up and run it at the yard or haul it out to a customers place. If it sits on a lawn or field for a couple weeks are we going to need to keep adjusting the setup of the machine if it settles a bit?
Also, some of the logs we run into are pretty big. Would the 4 post be a hassle if we are pushing the size limits?

Again, not trying to open a can of worms here, just not sure.

Thanks in advance.

ronwood · May 16, 2009, 09:18:53 AM

Wayne,

I think it is as lot to do with preference. I choose the Woodmizer and am happy with it.

At the time I had only a 1/2 ton pickup and I need something that was not to big for me to pull around. I looked at the larger Baker but pulling around with my pickup was an issue.

Either design will work has long as you keep your blades sharp and equipment well maintained.

Ron

Dave Shepard · May 16, 2009, 09:36:58 AM

You will have no trouble with the WM mill. I have sawn logs that are as big as 44" on the big end. It takes a lot of chainsaw work to clear the outside guide, but it can be done. I like the bed height of the WM machine, as the top of big logs is way up there, and the slabs are usually pretty DanG heavy. Because the WM is a monorail design, it is less prone to complications due to torsioning over the length of the mill. Setup is very quick. Settling will be an issue with any mill setup on less than ideal conditions.

ARKANSAWYER · May 16, 2009, 11:09:12 AM

I live in the hills and often the site was not the best. I have drug my LT40 over 150,000 miles and into places it should not have been a time or two. Several times I have busted off the legs getting into places. I have drug it up creeks and many miles of rough dirt roads. I have had to dig in the ground so the tonge would go in and the back be 6 ft off the ground. I have even sawn at such a slant that I had to pull/push the head back up to the front. The mill cut just as true as ever. I can pull in and be set up in less then 5 min and be gone even quicker.
My thinking is that WoodMizer put the portable in portable sawing.

Chuck White · May 16, 2009, 11:40:12 AM

I agree that what you choose will boil down to personal preference!

I chose to go with woodmizer, partly because that's what I learned on!
Then after looking at other mills at annual "Woodsmens Days", I just decided to go with Woodmizer and I'm still very happy with it!
Most sawyers get comfortable with their mill and learn some of the "fine points" that aren't even written in the books and really enjoy their mill!
Set up for the woodmizer is a breeze! But, maybe some of the others are too!

Go check out different brands of mills before you just decide after reading other peoples posts!
A mill owner will be biased, at least to some degree!

Good luck to you, and by-the-way, welcome to Forestry Forums!

DanG · May 16, 2009, 11:59:18 AM

I'm not a band man, but I've done a small amount of off-bearing for a couple of them. From the off-bearer's point of view, I'll take the cantilever every time, because of the open side. The forward posts on a 4 poster really get in the way, especially when loading flitches back on for edging.

Having only messed with two mills, Woodbowl's LT40 and Tom's big Baker, I can only talk about those two. I can see no difference in the lumber that comes from either mill. Setup and off-bearing are much easier on the Woodmizer, but the hydraulics and the sawyer's controls are much nicer on the Baker. Admittedly, Tom's mill is a lot bigger, and more expensive than WB's old Woodmizer, but I've also watched Customsawyer operate his LT70 several times and I still liked the Baker's controls better.

Banjo picker · May 16, 2009, 12:59:47 PM

Here is you another view. I have a Cooks , pretty good size mill. 4 post, will cut 25'. I like my mill, but it is set up on concrete under a building, and I don't move it. I did move it under the shed till I got it where i liked it the best, and I don't think I would want to be moving it around a whole bunch. And I don't think I could ever set it up in 5 min, so the WM will beat it there.

If you are gona saw really big, you will have to get a giant of a 4 poster and they are some out there, I know cooks put one together a while back, but my ac 36 is just at 38 inches between the posts, and I can see where at times the cantlever would be nice not having to worry about one set of posts, but you still got to get it between the rollers.

But the more I saw , the less I like those giant logs anyway, and I have told the loggers around here that I don't want anything much over 24" . They do look impressive on the mill, but you wont make as much money fooling with them as you will logs in the 2 ft or so range.

I milled one yesterday that I have been putting off for about a month. It was 36 inches the narrow way and I still had to cut a swell off one side to get it done. I had to bring it to the mill with the backhoe, if the Kubota M70 40 a 70 hp tractor will pick it up, it will probably fit on the mill no problem.

If i were going to go portable I would go with a smaller mill probably in the 16 ft. range, and tell them if they had anything longer bring it to the Cooks. Tim

StorminN · May 16, 2009, 01:41:34 PM

I'm not a band mill guy, either... but, a little story...

I went to the local logging show last weekend, there were two guys with Woodmizer mills there... first guy had an LT50 with a little Cat diesel on it, probably 33hp? The second guy had an LT30 with a 23hp? Kohler gas engine on it.

My first thought in watching either of these guys was my amazement in how they cut accurate lumber at all... especially the LT50, when he rev'd that little Cat up, the whole head bounced up and down a bit... I didn't go over and measure any boards, but all the lumber I saw come off the mill looked pretty good. I plain don't get it. From the looks of it, it might be important to rev the engine up and let the mill settle a couple of seconds before letting the blade enter the wood.

When I first got there, the guy with the LT50 was edging some red alder flitches he had already milled. After watching him for a couple of minutes... measuring, trying to line four flitches up, raising the toe board, lower the toe board, measuring again... making sure they were square to the saw bed... I thought... what a waste of a nice mill's time... why doesn't he have an edger? Maybe he does, and he just didn't bring it... I dunno... and I guess you use what you've got (brought).

Do any of the band mills offer a built-in edger? Something as simple as two circular saw blades, mounted on an adjustable shaft, riding in back of the band?

The guy with the LT30 spent the first 30-40 minutes I was there ripping the sides off maybe a 40"+ x 6' fir log with his chainsaw. My first thought was... DanG!... I would have been done milling that log on my Mobile Dimension and been loading lumber in the time it took him to just whittle it down to fit on his mill... but then when he finally got the log on the LT30 and started cutting 2"x24" slabs with it, I thought... "well, THAT'S pretty sweet... I can't easily do that on my mill"... and I have to say it again... the lumber looked pretty nice and straight...

In talking to those guys and also from reading on here, whatever band mill you decide to buy, get one with a debarker!

-Norm.

Dave Shepard · May 16, 2009, 02:51:43 PM

The cantilever heads pull into the cut, even if they do wiggle a little when they start, they cut accurately. Western Sawyer is the only band mill I know of that experimented with edger blades. If you want production, then you want to get the board off the mill as quickly as possible. When I edge, I may not send the board through the edger in the exact same direction as the log was sawn on the mill. If you have an edger built into the mill, you have no choice as to the orientation of the cut. Also, with such small kerfs on the band mills, the edger blades don't have as much room for error, not like on a big circle head rig that might be taking 5/16" or more kerf.

redprospector · May 16, 2009, 06:42:07 PM

I think that both the cantalever, and the 4 post design's each have their own advantages over each other. I used to run an old Woodmiser LT30, it was great on big log's, and the head shaking, although nerve racking, didn't seem to affect the quality of lumber coming off the mill.
When I built my mill, I went with the 4 post design because it just seemed simpler (I guess I have a 4 post mind). Either design will turn out good lumber, and that's the bottom line.

Andy

sgschwend · May 16, 2009, 08:07:44 PM

I have heard folks talk about issues with each brand but often they will say that the post count is not the area for concern.

Unless you have plenty of experience and know what you are looking for you may end up purchasing a machine and then deciding what you really want.

I can tell that the folks that posted earlier have different cutting requirements than I do. We all want to cut fast and accurate, handle heavy logs, and make it easy to remove the cut wood. I do not see an issue for off bearing with a four posted mill, at least not with mine. Here are my purchase concerns for my application: 1) a mill with too light of a frame, 2) cut entrance acceleration, 3) return speed, 4) band wheel size to allow saws up to 1.5" in width, 5) throat of cut at least 12", 6) width of cut at least 30", 7) enough diesel power, 8) log turners that can turn logs in both directions, 9) turners that can work with both large and small logs. I am sure there are more but these features are key in determining the effectiveness of a mill to cut softwood.

backwoods sawyer · May 17, 2009, 02:13:12 AM

As far as set up, I find the WM to be fast and simple. Just set the four center legs then tighten up the front and back legs. With only 6 legs uneven ground is not a problem, although I have yet to set the mill up and be ready to mill in five min. 15-20 is my average from the time I pull in, till I have a log on the mill, if the customer is talkative this may take a bit longer.
I am not fond of the of the bouncing head either, but the problems I have had with the single post, is flexing and cracking of the mast, the double post may have solved this issue. Another problem is the rollers on the bottom rail seize up on a regular basis. I change about one a month. I believe the problem is road grime, most of the time it is the same bearing that is seizing, (I keep them greased) and it is located behind the axle when in travel mode. The bearings are cheap unless you have to buy them by the dozen, then it adds up.
Not having the extra post can save some chainsaw work when milling over sized logs like the Myrtlewood that I milled up today. I also like the chain log turner over the claw style that some mills have. If you are portable, you will want the debarker, because more times then not someone will have drug in a real dirty log for you to mill.
Good luck in your choise mill.

pineywoods · May 17, 2009, 02:53:58 PM

Hey backwoods, if you're changing out bearings that often, somethin's wrong. My old mizer has over 7000 hours and still has the original bearings. Could be dirt like you say, but here's something worth checking. There's a big electrical brush that runs on the bottom of the frame rail. If that is dirty, broken, etc, the hydraulics will still run, but the dc return is through the bearings. 200 amps through any ball bearing will destroy that bearing quickly..

backwoods sawyer · May 18, 2009, 01:25:46 AM

Quote from: pineywoods on May 17, 2009, 02:53:58 PM
Hey backwoods, if you're changing out bearings that often, somethin's wrong. My old mizer has over 7000 hours and still has the original bearings. Could be dirt like you say, but here's something worth checking. There's a big electrical brush that runs on the bottom of the frame rail. If that is dirty, broken, etc, the hydraulics will still run, but the dc return is through the bearings. 200 amps through any ball bearing will destroy that bearing quickly..

I got a brass piece that follows the bottom rail but no Big brush, can not find it in my manual or the on line manual. Maybe they just for got to put one the proto type. You got a part number for it?

ARKANSAWYER · May 18, 2009, 02:19:52 PM

The bottom contact is dirty and the reason you are having bearing problems. I used to keep a piece of a belt sander belt to clean the contact point with. You also have to keep the bottom rail clean of rust. I used to wipe it down with WD40 and a course steel wool pad when I pulled into a site. I would also use it to clean the side strip as well.
On the side strip the black plastic piece needs the corners sanded down. If not you will be wiping the bottom rail and scrape your wrist.

Bibbyman · May 18, 2009, 05:14:20 PM

Another way to weld up the roller bearings is to start operating the hydraulics while the head is still in motion.

Dave Shepard · May 18, 2009, 05:16:27 PM

I had to adjust the follower on the head this spring. It will wear a little, and create a gap, which will chew up the contact strip.

geils · May 30, 2009, 06:52:04 AM

Hey folks,

Thanks for the feedback to the question. I think the best thing we can do is wait to catch a show where we can see the machines side by side and really look them over.

Again, thanks for the feedback and it's been a big help.