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putting saw to wood

Started by austinworks, November 07, 2003, 07:58:04 PM

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austinworks

This seems to be a friendly group, so I'll start with where I'm at. I searched the knowledge base and paged through as much of the posts as I had time for. I have several connections to tree services in my subruban Philly area and they give me all the fire wood I can burn for free - I burn everyday as soon as the temp falls below 60, because we don't have much in the way of insulation.

The services generally just let their wood rot at the yard if it is too big to chip. I am interested in getting a mill to saw woods for furniture and instrument applications, similar to Music Boy. I have a number of save the world one tree at a time scenarios, but I'm pretty sure the family finances and child care responsiblilities mean I have to start small and prove I have a workable business plan before we go out on the proverbial limb.



Actual Questions:

Are their any mills near me that I can look over the operations?

Have any of you explored the niche marketing of hard woods using a small mill? I noticed the discussions of gunstocks - curly maple instrument sets (and I'm not sure I have access to such wood, but as an example) get upwards to $200 for 22"x7" by 3/16" bookmatched sets. I sawed through one of the maple chopping blocks the wood guys dropped off last year and it had a nice pattern to it (my machine's a Mac and I haven't found a compression utility for the photo yet).



What mills are best for small lengths of timber, since the tree guys will have to cut it to manageable size to get it down in most suburban yards?

Where can I make contacts for lumber I might cut that is not a niche hardwood?

can anyone send me a copy of an actual business plan they used to geta  bank loan - the material at timberking and woodmizer seem to general, like I know I can cut x b/f per day theoretically, but where do the supply and buyers come from?

thanks in advance

dutchman

I'm sawing part time in western PA.,Pittsburgh area.There are alot of good internet sites in PA state goverment and Penn State Forestry to find local mills,and log suppliers.Start with the Find-a-Sawyer feature on the left side of this page.

J_T

 Got to ask. any kin to that Dutchman out Arizonia way?? :)
Jim Holloway

austinworks

J_T
not that I know of

Dutchman
the find a sawyer was limited for my area of PA, from the map I'll look on the Jersey side next. Thanks for the links to Penn State.

If I did it right, here's a picture of my set up



I look forward to the encouragement



Jeff

I hepped ya out on dat one. Close but not qiute. Click modify on your post to see what the code looks like that makes it work.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Tom

Looks like he might fit in, eh?

Austinworks,
If you are going to ease into this then most any small affordable mill will do.  You will find that the business will overtake you rather than your having to go searching for it.  If you stay on the conservative side and keep your day job, most things that concern new mill owners will work themselves out in short order.  The best advice you can be given at this point is "keep it fun".   If you make it "work" you will be off looking for another way to make money. :)

austinworks

and my biceps are getting bigger
I'll be ok as long as I remember to switch hands

Tom

I had a saw like that once.  I loved it.

Somebody stole it out of my garage.  Can't figure out why!  They aren't worth a whole lot of money and somebody that is lazy enough to steal sure doesn't need a one-man-buck saw. :D

music_boy

Austinworks,
     The little mill I got, Oscar 18, from Hudson, has, so far done what stated it would. Aftter I corrected my stupid adjustments to it, it has sawed nice. I cut some cherry today for practice, was cutting 1/2 " and darn consistent. I didn't start out to do anything but personal wood for my instrument hobby. The gun stock idea is good as I have found several folks that are nterested in seeing a crotchwood blank they could make a gunstock out of. I have two folks, who are interested in instrument wood for Dulcimers, and guitars, maybe banjos. Like folks on this forum have said, "If you have one, they will come." :D :D :D :D :D And I am just learning this. My opinion, but the Aeolian wind harps wood be a great "bread and butter" deal at craft shows, least around here. I too am interested in the "smaller" lucky find pieces. My mill , and I venture most others, aren't setup to handle short stuff. I am figuring a way to add a separate log holder to accomodate short stuff. If it works I'll post it for sure. I bought my Hudson for 1995.00............350. to deliver, 5 extra blades and a long handle pevey. So far, my only regret is, I might have been better off with the Oscar 28. !8" is not real big when you start doing 4\4 for heart wood. Working on a trailer as bending over is not my style. (leave it alone ya'll)
     Tom,
              Bet you they stole it, had it painted and sold it in an antique auction. See'm all the time.
Good luck
Rick
It's not how much YOU love, it is how much you ARE loved that matters. (Wizard of OZ)

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hey AustinW.

You are wise to look at your exact circumstances, i.e. your interest,  supply,  potential demand, etc.  I wanted to throw something out to you, gleaned from the WoodWeb site.  (Don't worry, Ron, Jeff and crew are self-confident enough to take some stuff from "that other wood forum".)

Gene Wengert repeatedly points out that the small scale mill of any type can often gain a higher return on the very simplest of things, and with the fewest cuts, and with the least processing.  For an example,  I may love the thought of quarter sawing a given log, even though it might be labor intensive, while ignoring a known, local demand for say 4"by4" skids and blocking for a nearby trucking firm, etc.  One of his examples is that of railroad ties, versus the time and labor to cut crude 4/4 boards of the same log.  (The ties make more money per man-hour and per machine-hour.)

Just another point to ponder, eh?   Your motive? Doin' it to see big flakes or curly grain, or to see the most dollars for the time spent?  It entirely depends upon your personal "jollies" in the process.   ::)
Phil L.

P.S. Yep,  I confess,  I want to see dem flakes and the beauty inside.  
Don't care if it paze.  Make my livin' other waze.   8)
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Bibbyman


Welcome to the FF A.W.  8)

If you think you'd be interested in a Wood-Mizer LT15 mill,  you can call their 1-800-553-0182 number and talk to a salesman.  They can give you contact information of LT 15 owners in your area.  Maybe some that are doing the kind of project you are thinking about.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

austinworks

thanks for all the info
I have a tenative plan to go up to the woodmizer dealer to look at the LT-15 next week. They haven't had much experience with quartersawing but offered to try as much as I wanted to demo.

I'd be very interested in more advice on short stuff - one option would be to get a standard resaw bandsaw, but I don't have the storage for anything like that yet, and obviously don't have the strength to put big pieces up on a little table.

one of the reasons I am interested in business plans/experiences is just the point you raise Phil L. I currently don't see myself banging out big chunks because the contacts that I have are in woodworking and that's been my interest. We have lots of oak, maple and cherry up here that the arborists pull down all the time. They have an easier time chipping the soft wood. I don't need the business to pay for my retirement, but the rest of the family would like to see some return on anything else I introduce to the garage.

does anyone feel comfortable comparing the lt-15 and the oscar? I noticed that Music Boy had some problems with adjustment/blade float and I haven't always been the most mechanically precise person.

music_boy

     I don't thinkit is really fair to compare the two. You're talking about a 2000.00 machine vs. a what? 4500. I think you get what you pay for. I ventured into this as a "hobby". Laying out minimal cash vs. end result for me was a no brainer. If you are considering the expense of an lt15, you are in a different arena than me. Also, the trouble with adjusting was my stupid self, not the machine or anything Hudson did. Just being fair to the product. If you screwed with a WM, you would do the same thing I did probably. Also, from what I've read on this forum, WM sends a bit more info on their product than Hudson does for whatever reason.
Hope this helps
Rick
It's not how much YOU love, it is how much you ARE loved that matters. (Wizard of OZ)

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

                                                  Hey AustinW.
As much bragging as I have seen about the service provided by Woodmizer - even to the point of catering to the wives of potential sawyers to make a sale - why not ask them? ;)

If they are so great in customer relations, they may print you out an Oaf-ficial biz plan for you to take to the bank.  It is, after all, in their best interest . . . ,
   if YOU'RE GOIN'  ORANGE !    8)

Phil L.
      P.S.   (References to the color orange are a
                     recurring "off-color-joke" around here.)  :D
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

trey_w

Hey Austinworks, I'm looking at doing the same thing in Texas, keep me posted on what phase you're at and I'll do the same.  Any info I get I'll pass along.   ;D
If you put your two cents in and only get a penny for your thoughts...who gets the change?

austinworks

Phil

thanks for the advice - the woodmizer dealer in my area hasn't been at it too long. Its a 2 hr drive or so that I'll load one of the critters into the car to do in the next week or two. From the discussions I've seen the resale on the larger WM is tremendous, but I don't know if that is true of the LT 15.

thanks to music_boy for the input. I had just discover the Oscar machines - in some fashion it has to be fair to compare the various saws. I wasn't picking on any particular one with the issue of drift. I had noted the debate between circular and band sawyers and just throwing in my level of skill (note the measure once cut twice motto).

trey_w - I will keep you posted - there are several urban forresters in the discussion. Scott in Memphis has been really helpful, especially with his experience in fine woodworking. Turns out I used to live in his neighborhood.

If I get access to a good bandsaw I'll post pictures of the bookmatched pieces I get out of the maple cutting block - should be large enough for a ukelele and might just end up on ebay as a test.

woodmills1

Orange business plans click here now[/size][/color]
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

VA-Sawyer

QuotePhil

From the discussions I've seen the resale on the larger WM is tremendous, but I don't know if that is true of the LT 15.

Try pricing used LT15's, that will let you know if they hold their value well.

I bought a used LT40HD just so I wouldn't have any lost money if this business doesn't work out. People seem interested, but none have handed over any money for my services yet.   :-/   I'm just now getting the word out, so I'm expecting the flood of customers to start later this week. ;D

If you are going to insist on the "measure once, cut twice" approach, you might want to look at a hydraulic mill to make it easier to handle all that waste wood  :D

Rick

solidwoods

AW.

Welcome.  You will find allot of people here that have done or do exactly what you are describing.  Myself included.
Are you going to go portable?
Take a close look at the Kasco mill, saw II B.
Or make yourself a 4 post mill.  Off the shelf parts. Make a good mill head, and put it on a common metal shape track. Log length is a mater of how you make the bed.
Also check out
https://sawmill-exchange.com/
You should be able to get a portable miller in your area to mill for you in the meantime.  Hitting nails or "Tramp metal" will be an issue for milling.  If you don't like the millers offer about hitting metal, you could purchase a set of blades your self and maintain them.  Depends how long till you start up your own mill.
Feel free to call and talk business phylosophy.
9318796490
Thought about drying the wood?
JIM
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

MemphisLogger

Being that I'm in the urban lumber biz, I gotta throw in a couple cents. Of course, if I had any sense I wouldn't be in the urban lumber biz to begin with  ;D

I looked at a variety of mill types when I first entertained this notion of saving city trees for woodworking  :P
 
Moving logs is to be avoided in the city if possible. I try my best to mill all logs onsite. This keeps me from having a lot of waste products to deal with at my home and I find that nearly every homeowner has some low spot or garden bed that they want the sawdust in and most love the idea of easy to split slabs for their firewood pile.

Milling onsite also leads to a lot more jobs as people see you doing your thing and a lot of times I'll end up selling wood straight off the saw if a woodworker happens by.

Therefore, I believe that the best saw for city work is a portable mill. Due to the strange terrain that onsite sawing puts you on, I also believe that the frame of the mill needs to be as forgiving as possible. I'd be concerned about 4 post designs taking too much time to set up straight. It only takes us 10-15 minutes to set up my LT-30.

18 horses would be as low as I would go--it takes some work to get through those 28" cuts.

I wouldn't worry about hydraulics if you're doing onsite work since their will likely only be 1-3 logs coming out of a tree. A better investment would be a good winch on your truck which loads logs on the mill easily as well as providing a means to skid the logs out of the deep dark corners of the yard if necessary. The winch will also come in handy for getting logs onto your trailer if necessary.

Getting to the short of it the long way, the package that I'd recommend to any small scale urban logger/sawyer would be:

a used WM LT-30 or equivalent 4-poster

a Husky 372XP (or Stihl equivalent) saw with a 36" bar w/chains for ripping and bucking

a Beam Machine for guiding ripping cuts

2 cant hooks or 1 peavey and one cant hook

a farm jack

and last but NOT least

a METAL DETECTOR  ;D

I'm pretty sure that there's some good old LT-30s up in Pennesylvania that need a home. That's where I';d start looking.
      
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

austinworks

I've got a three inch pulley I pulled out of a log I split - I assume its a continuing problem, especially in urban/suburban areas. The woodmizer site has a sample contract that covers blade damage as a customer responsibility. Have you had problems enforcing such a provision, or do you include blade damage in the sawing charges and hope you don't ruin too many blades?

is the LT27 the replacement for the LT30?

on the drying issue - for the people using the wood for projects, how close to finish thickness do you saw? Rough lumber around here seems pretty rough and getting the things straight on a planer gets you 3/4" out of 4/4 lumber if your lucky. Do you cut furniture hardwoods to 5/4 or 4/4 dimensions? For myself, and any other instrument people, 3/8 to 1/4 slabs would be great if it doesn't pretzel as it dries. Any advice?

MemphisLogger

If we're sawing for a customer, we have it in our contract that hitting metal costs $20. When we do hit metal, we try to pull it out, but if we can't get to it we just keep sawing with the damaged blade.

We use WM DpoubleHard blades and they cut alright after hitting the nail, so a lot of times the customer will ask us to finish the log with the damaged blade so he/she doesn't buy too many.

When we're salvaging lumber for ourselves and hit a nail, we just keep on keepin' on with the damaged blade until we're out of the metal. I tink it's something like 1 outta 5 logs in the city that have metal and for some perverse reason it seems to be the Walnuts more often than not. We mark the location of the nail with a crayon or a Sharpie so we (or the buyer) don't hit it with our planer later. If we think of it while we're stacking for drying, we drive the nail out with a punch.

When we quartersaw, we saw 4/4 on the mill's scale since it will stay nice and straight. We often get full 1" after planing at this setting. If I'm plainsawing, I go for 5/4 to make up for any cupping. Otherwise, we saw 6/4 for table/seat tops or 8/4 for legs. I rarely saw anything thicker than 8/4 caouse it takes so long to dry and defects more. If I need thicker stuff, I glue up ala Stickley style.

If I'm after 3/8" material for the decorative boxes I make, I saw 4/4 and resaw after it's dry, resulting in book matched pieces. If I want 1/2" panels for cabinets, I saw 5/4 and resaw later.

My LT-30 cuts extremely staright lumber and I stack for air-drying very carefully. The commercial kiln I take it to after it's down to 20-30% thinks my lumber is excellent  8)

One of the benefits of having a mill is that you get to joint and plane from full 4/4. I hate buying surfaced lumber at the store because they've already taken so much of your wood away and done nothing to make it flat. I like to rough cut my parts out of rough sawn lumber and then joiint and plane it for the thickest possible piece--my rails and stiles are usually finished at 7/8" or 15/16".

If I need to see the figure better than rough allows, a couple swipes with a low angle block plain lets me see what I need to see.  

  
 
    

Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

MemphisLogger

I obviously suffer from Spell Checker dependency  :-[ :-[ :D :D
Scott Banbury, Urban logger since 2002--Custom Woodworker since 1990. Running a Woodmizer LT-30, a flock of Huskies and a herd of Toy 4x4s Midtown Logging and Lumber Company at www.scottbanbury.com

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hello again, AustinW.

In a more serious vein, I went back to your original post, which has a lot of meat in it.  Below are some of your phrases and pertinent (hopefully) responses.

start small and prove I have a workable business plan before we go out on the proverbial limb
 1.  Limbs have bad wood - too much reaction wood.
       (Oops, did I say "serious"?)
 2.  If you take Urban's advice and go used equip./high qual,
        you really are only risking your time.
 3.  Be sure to keep the day job, and let it grow on the side.
 
 
Are their any mills near me that I can look over their operations?
 1. You already have some advice there,  also, go to    
        WoodWeb.com.   Lots of knowledge base and forums.
        Some of us nuts here show up there, also.
 2.  Local forestry,  tree trimmers,  farm bulletins, classifieds,
         yellow pages of nearby towns, could give you leads, as
         could local furniture and craft people.
 3.   Chances are that most of them will have a different focus
          than what you describe.

niche marketing of hard woods using a small mill
 1.  Oops, bad news.   Unless you have specialized markets
        in everything you do,   you are competing against the
        huge scale advantage of the "Big Boys" - the millions-of-
        board-feet-per-month mills.  
 2.  There are more "niches" than you think.  One of my
        friends has found that his best "non-niche" is cutting
        oak decking for flatbed heavy equipment trailers.  Since
       this is still specialized,  you could call it a niche.
 3.  Since my chainsaw milling is so arduous,  I do not cut
        "plain old lumber" meaning dimension pine, etc.  I don't
         pursue it.    On the other hand,  I did recently slab an
         entire 26"  Yellow Pine at 2-1/4" thick to make
        2"x14"x24ft  beams to rebuild a set of  truss systems
        for a 110-yr.-old warehouse.   Niche, niche, niche !

What mills are best for small lengths of timber, since the tree guys will have to cut it to manageable size to get it down in most suburban yards?
 1.  Some upper-end band mills have extra clamping
        capacity for short work.  Out of your budget, unless you
        could find a custom made one on
        SawmillExchange.com .( They do have one now.)
 2.  The ultra-slow chainsaw mill handles any length, period,
         from firewood length to 60', if you like.
 3.  Urban's advice to cut in place may also help you
        convince  Tree guys to leave logs longer for you.  I had
       12 tons of good logs hauled right to me last week.  
       (I had  gone and bucked these oversize trees for the
        construction firm to save them some work.  In
        exchange, they were nice enough to haul them the mile
        and a half to my warehouse.
 4.  You can build facilities to enhance any mill.   You could
        easily make a cradle of sorts to hold the short stuff
        and use this jig without permanently altering your mill or
        diminishing its value.

I went through a lot of this thinking in early 2002.  Click on my name and you will see ways to find some of that "stuff".
 

Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

music_boy

Hey Phil,
     I'd be interested in some of your ideas on setting up a jig for the smaller stuff. I've got a couple of ideas but experince has proved my first ideas aren't my best, and someone else has already been down that road.
Appreciate any ideas.
Ricki
It's not how much YOU love, it is how much you ARE loved that matters. (Wizard of OZ)

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Hey Music B./Ricki

I would defer to Arkansawyer on that.  (If he hasn't done it,  I'll be amazed.)   Between him and Frank Pender,  they have done the most experimental stuff imaginable.

Examples of what I have seen,   but not done,  include
    a)  extra end-dog system which can be flipped up within
           a saw's frame,  (adjustable or fixed length possible)
    b)  an indexed log mounting system, much like something
           you might envision for a lathe, rather than a sawmill,
               ( The log is fastened, suspended and can be rotated
               in the jig.)
     c)  and, a fixed-length frame of steel with its own dogging
             system which could hold a short log.   This "cradle"
             could be maneuvered with log in it, or made to sit on
             the saw frame for the log to be rolled in and secured.

Where are you Frank and Arky ?
Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Fla._Deadheader

  Our mill is set up for large logs. Our movable log stops are 24" high. We set our bunks at 32" center to center. We saw 24" long chunks all the time. We put a 2X whatever, flat on the bunks to set the piece on. We also use a piece of 2 X to stand up against the log stops and we allow enough room so the clamp will tighten against the piece we are cutting, that sits on the bottom 2X and is held from being pushed through the log stops, by the second 2X. That clear as mud ?  :D :D :D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

aLRiGHt  fLoRida,

i tried to imagine that, 'til  I hurt my head.   :D

(Please send picture!)
Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Fla._Deadheader

  Cmon, Phil. I read the post 4 times and it seems pretty easy to figger out.  ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

solidwoods

Music boy.
For short logs on the mill,  try making a Vee trough to put the log in.  Plywood glued with Poly glue and screwed together (just enough to hold it together till the glue dries, then remove any screws that are in the cutting area)
ply bottom and a Vee with some supports connecting to the bottom. This will let you put a flat quickly on the log (even cut a few boards), then move down the track to a ply bed area with wood back fence.
Make the flat, move the log and head and work the log on the other table to complete.

If moving the mill head up/dwn is quick,  make just one jig but make it two sided and flip it over for each table type.
JIM
Ret. US Army
Kasco II B Band mill
Woodworking since 83
I mill & kiln dry lumber, build custom furniture, artworks, flooring, etc.
If you mill, you'll be interested in some of my work in one way or another.
We ship from our showroom.
N. Central TN.

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

aLRiGHt  fLoRida,

When I got out the Lincoln logs and laid 'em out on the kitchen table.  Then I read your post again. It was as clear as mud.   And I didn't get dirty or sweaty!

That's definitely the simplest idea, especially if the feed is slow, huh?    I like the plywood V-trough, too.   Light weight and no damage to blades by accident.

Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Fla._Deadheader

   :D :D :D :D :D
  I like the V trough, also. One more option on them "shorts". ;) ;D ;D
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

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