Yellow & Red Metal

[weimedog]

Not being the best mechanic in the world, it takes a bit of luck to get some of the old saws to run ...

Almost without exception I've been able to get old Homelites to run with a fuel line and a carb kit, maybe a spark plug. Have had excellent "luck" right?

But with the Yellow saws, I've had nothing but bad luck.  especially with the 700 series. One fired first pull, idled, thought it was a winner.....45 second later in a cut it starts to go lean. The case / cylinder junction sucks air says the brake clean can...:( The other will fire and run for maybe 20 minutes before it's tune begins to change....

So after 3 "bad" luck scenerio's with the Yellow "plague" I decided to move on..or back to an old Jonsered Bob had brought up. 

Ratty looking thing with tape holding the handle together in a stick goo....enough grim on it to make you think it was a black saw.. Filter had that same tar. Plug cap was separated from the plug wire. Pulled the plud and it too had a dark brown crust on it....BUT the saw had spark even with that plug. HOT blue spark. God only knows hoe long its been sitting. The fuel was that kerosene looking stuff with that 10 year old gas smell. Dumped it out put fresh gas in.

Took a peek at the diaphragm in the top of the cab, was stiff like a piece of card board. So i dabbed a little gas on it, dripped a little straignt in the carb. Put fresh gas in the tank, a new fuel filter. 

First pull it ran for a few seconds and went lean and quit. Tapped the carb with a screw driver handle. Next pull it fired and ran....let it idle for a while. Shut it off, and it refired one pull.

The contrast to the Yellow fever's is striking. I LIKE old saws like that...

But my question is there has to be a way to make the McCulloch's run right?? There is a following and there are a gazillion of them out there. WHAT is the trick??

[Real1shepherd]

The "trick" is to stay with the red saw....lol.

Kevin

[Al_Smith]

I think what happens on some of those Macs is they put them together with bath tub caulk and eventually they leak .Originally they used gasket shellac ,Indian Head .It's just thinned down Permatex number 1 .
From my experience it's seldom a leaky crankshaft seal and if so it's on the clutch side .The good thing is the seals are all SAE sized and easy to find .I've never had a bearing go bad --so far .
As a rule McCullochs are a very user friendly saw to work on with the exception of the Mini Macs .Those are so frustrating they could make a preacher cuss .
Now the red saws ,I only have a few and in fact some that are blue .They are about like the Macs, very simple and as a rule dependable .

[lxskllr]

I wonder what the most robust saw would be. Not the best or fastest cutter, but the one that be dragged through a creek, life spent bouncing in the back of an open truck, never maintained, but never needs more work than can be carried in a field bag, and fixed in-field? The ak47 of chainsaws.

[Al_Smith]

As far as sealants I'm old school .If it worked on a model A Ford it will work on a chainsaw or a new Cadillac .I've got the jumbo sizes of Permatex ,red Loctite etc .
I know some people substitute some form of sealant in place of a gasket .I don't subscribe to that theory and always make a real gasket .
Every so often a stubborn saw comes along to drive you nuts .Take a deep breath, put the thing on the shelf and go have some liquid refreshment and attack it with gusto at a later date .I had a Stihl 042 drive me bonkers and I banished it to the shelf for about 2 years until I got my cool back .I wanted to punish it with a big ball peen hammer but stayed the course .BTW as I type it runs like a top . 8)

[Al_Smith]

I wonder what the most robust saw would be. Not the best or fastest cutter, but the one that be dragged through a creek, life spent bouncing in the back of an open truck, never maintained, but never needs more work than can be carried in a field bag, and fixed in-field? The ak47 of chainsaws.

McCulloch PM 610 .Heavy, ugly but will run with more damage than anything ever made .

[Tacotodd]

I wonder what the most robust saw would be. Not the best or fastest cutter, but the one that be dragged through a creek, life spent bouncing in the back of an open truck, never maintained, but never needs more work than can be carried in a field bag, and fixed in-field? The ak47 of chainsaws.

McCulloch PM 610 .Heavy, ugly but will run with more damage than anything ever made .

Al, I'm going to keep on the lookout for that "mystical" always dependable saw! As long as like the AK47, it always goes BANG!

[mike_belben]

I wonder what the most robust saw would be. Not the best or fastest cutter, but the one that be dragged through a creek, life spent bouncing in the back of an open truck, never maintained, but never needs more work than can be carried in a field bag, and fixed in-field? The ak47 of chainsaws.

Husky 61.  Your pocket will fit everything but a crank splitter.  I can be looking at the piston in 5 minutes.  They are the small block chevy of sweden.  The base layer that the 372 evolved from.  And if that aint a legend shoot me now. 

[weimedog]

Bob has informed me there is a growing interest in that 61-272 chassis....SO in our typical fashion we will do a video at some point on..... the red version  ( 625-670's ) Some day in the future. But I think if the "small block chevy" of the saw world is the 61/272 , then the "LS" has to be the 372 series.   AND to get a little controversy going to start the weekend...what would u all c as the Big Bock Chev? Stihl 066-660??

[Al_Smith]

It's kind of amusing this talk of who's dog is better .When you boil it all down it amounts to the popularity of what's available in a particular area
For example in this area for modern saws Stihl is the front runner ,others are spotty .What others are usually "box store " specials with no dealer support for parts .
When they stop running they get banished to the shelf and they trot off to buy another one and end up at garage sales for next to nothing .Perhaps for trade for  a broken shotgun or a deaf half blind coon dog .Every so often a Stihl or other higher quality saws pop up at garage sales usually only needing a carb rebuild .I just shake my head .

[chet]

Mike, da 61 & 272 huskies get my vote too.   

[steele109]

Hi I built a junk pile pm 700. The biggest problem was the rings, they come with thin rings. When I tore down The original cylinder the rings had about 40 thousand end gap.So I ordered a new set of original set of mcculloch rings they had about 25 thousands new. I wound up changing pistons (used a little red barn piston thick rings) the rings on that piston had a end gap of 15 thousands,so put a set of cabers on it (7 thousands) glued it together with three bond.It runs great haven't had to adjust the carb since initial adjustment. I took the base gasket out,it has 170 lbs compression. Oh and give yourself credit your a great mechanic. You need to take one apart put it back together and see who gets the last laugh you or Bob.

[Al_Smith]

Now you have me confused .You mentioned a base gasket but that saw, pm 700 Mac  design it's a split crank case doesn't have a removable cylinder like a Stihl .Am I confused here ? ???

[Real1shepherd]

I really think saws find people and people find saws. With the right operators, any decently designed saws can sing.

It really comes down to the owner/operator of the saw. I have over 40+yrs on a hard working Jonsereds 80 that started out its life with me as a back-up loggin' saw in smaller timber. And it just won't die. How much of that is me and how much is the integrity of the saw, who can say??

I kept buying J'reds after that and they've never let me down. On the contrary, they continue to surprise and regale me. Once I sort through what PO's have done to them, they just go, go, go and go.

So for me, that 'mystical saw' will always be the 80. But....watching YouTube vids of other 80's running, they seem lacking in WOT and quick revving. They sound dull and lackluster....so I dunno. I have enough parts to build another one and I suspect I will at some point just to compare.

My 90 by comparison is not the wild beast my 80 is, but does have a little more noticeable grunt when you lean into it. 

Kevin

[Spike60]

"Bath tub caulk"? OMG. I wish I wasn't sipping my coffee when I read that. Now that my key board and nose are clean.......

There's another factor that ya gotta consider here. Everybody in this thread knows how to tune a carb, among other things. It's a skill that guys in the saw hobby world kind of take for granted. Heck, most of you guys are WAY better saw techs than can be found in many dealerships. So, it's not just what old saws still run, but what old saws can still run reliably in the hands of an owner who really doesn't have any wrenching skills? Don't even know how to sharpen a chain.

Mike and Chet are right about the Husky 61's and family. Lotta those old white tops still out there cutting wood. The 61's and Jonny 625's generally lived easier lives than their XP counter parts. I see more 670's still in use than 266XP's. The intake boots on the 670's were superior to the 266 intake block set up on the 266, especially the early ones that were still being called SE's. But for some reason, there's an awful lot of 630's out there yet, and they mostly share the 162/266 intake. (the blocks all look the same, but hardware changed over the years to combat heat transfer to the carb.)

As far as the old Jonnys go, there is a surprising number of them still in use. Primarily 49SP's and 70E's. Some 52E's and 451's. Part of the equation of course is Jonsered was very popular around here, so those saws sold in good numbers. But guys hang on to them cause they still work. And they just feel like a quality built machine to people who don't like plastic. Plus, they don't feel as dated as nearly everything else from that era. They still have a fairly contemporary feel when running them.

There's probably always going to be Homelite XL12/SXL saws in use. Numbers sold, and far less fussy than the yellow junk. The XL-925 family is just as good, but you don't see them as often. My experience with the Mac's is similar to Walt's, and beyond the fact that they have a cool sound, I just can't warm up to those things. And unlike the rock solid Homelites, you just don't see them out in the real world anymore.

Or, how about saws in serious/pro use that see absolutely ZERO maintenance until it lands on my counter? 372, 372, 372, and more 372's.

[Real1shepherd]

I've never been disappointed with the old J'reds I own. Like there always comes a point with some mechanical devices that you say, "Why did they design it like that...it's just a compromise and cutting corners." I never really say that with the old J'reds. Never look down at something broken that was designed cheap. I just have to fix items that have succumbed to age/wear.

Now after Electrolux first waved their 'magic' wand, that wasn't always so.

Kevin

[Al_Smith]

You could probably find good saws by nearly all manufacturers and lemons if you look hard enough .Even Poulan who made the less expensive saws sold under Sears and Roebuck at one time made some better grade units .Both Homelite and McCulloch had some good and some not so good .I'm sure J-Red and Partner were the same as well as Stihl and Husqvarna .

[Spike60]

So, how about have a little fun and expand the discussion. Let's say that you had to pick just one brand of old saws to live with to handle all of your cutting needs. Old, being 1980 vintage there abouts. No new saws for back ups. Gotta get it done with the oldies; day and day out. It ain't about cool, it's about tools that you can count on. Going back that far, parts are going to be NLA for most everything. American brands like Homelite and Mac likely have more parts online than the European companies. But parts availabilty and how often you are gonna need parts are somewhat different things. Saws that just keep going like the energizer bunny have less of a need for parts. There's no wrong answers here. Everyone's opinion is correct based on their own experience and preference.

The old Jonsereds are the easy choice for me. Well built and easy to work on. Decent AV at a time when most saws had no AV at all. They are not fussy, and don't have a lot of nagging issues that constantly need attention. And as I said earlier, they really don't feel like old saws to me. I can run them all day and not feel the need to grab something newer. Plus they are easily reliable enough that there's no need to pack any newer saws for back up. And there's enough models to cover the spectrum of whatever I need to do.

2nd place for me might actually be Homelite over Husky. More options there and there are countless dead saws around to serve as parts donars. IMO, Homelite has it all over McCulloch. Even the hardware they are screwed together with is robust vs the dinky screws that hold the Mac's together.

Your opinion may be different; but it would be fun to hear what everyone has to say.

[sawguy21]

Mine would be a Pioneer, simple, reliable and easy to work on. Give me a P26 and I'm happy, if I need anything bigger than a P41 somebody else can cut it. J'reds are scarce here.

[weimedog]

I guess the action speaks louder than words applies here, I still have my old 925 and sometimes IT's the back up as I can think of just one time in 20 years it let me down, and that was because it has sat for a few years and needed some rubber parts. Right now it sits along side a couple of 70e's and an eighty.

One brand... has to be Homelite although I would like it to be Jonsered.

[Spike60]

Pioneers are very rare in these parts. Had to jump in to Acres site to see what a P26 and P41 were. Probably most brands not named Husky or Stihl, or Homelite or McCulloch, are going to have regional popularity and be mostly unknown in other places.

Was wondering which way you'd jump Walt. But your 925 is out numbered by your Jonsereds.

[weimedog]

True, and I really don't plan on acquiring many more in the Homelite clan but do the Jonsereds. And I guess another measure might be I've traded and given away Homelites, but not the Jonsereds. Kind of a one way path for the Swede's. Just saying the Homelite 925 has been a working saw for decades. And the Jonsered 920's only since the 2006 time frame

[Real1shepherd]

While I've run some smaller Huskies, I don't have experience with their full line back in the day. After I quit loggin' I went to work for a gold mill up in CO and I made them buy a Husky. I remember it being all orange...not a colored top like the 61....I just don't remember the model(early 80's). It was tough and had a lot of different people abuse it in spite of my directions.

So for the larger stuff...stuff 3ft or bigger, my Husky 2100. For 3ft and under, my J'red 2094(I know, not technically an 'oldie', but not 'new' either). For stuff where I don't need a larger bar, my J'reds 80 & 90. For the smaller stuff my J'reds 621, although I don't have a lot of time in with that saw yet it looks promising.

I've got several J'reds 910's that aren't running yet, but I did log one day with one when they were new. The jury is still out on that one.

All the rest of my saws are duplication of the above. I'd like to put some time in with a J'reds 70E and I have someone trying to sell me one....just not gonna be any 'deal' there so I'm in no hurry.

My de facto saw that I would grab above all others....my wild-*butt* 80.

Kevin

[Al_Smith]

The one and only J-red I've ever worked on was around 49 cc and I forgot the number .It was just a simple carb rebuild .I thought it was a snappy little 3 cuber .The brand was never seen around these parts that I can remember .The owner was a student at local tech college who also had a little Stihl with a cable throttle linkage around 2 cube .Much to my surprise a local Stihl dealer had one of those cables in stock .
He also had a few more which I went through them in preparation for cutting tops up from 50 white oaks for fire wood .That kids family was from the central portion of the state ,Knox county where I was born some years ago . They farmed around 3,000 acres and had some timber land .

[Teemore]

I guess I'm a little late to this party but I have to echo comments about the reliability of Jonsereds. They are a relatively rare saw in my part of the world - Stihl had a greater market presence when I was growing up (70s baby, early 80s child...) and Husqvarna chewed into that market as the years have passed. A few years ago whilst suffering Winter cabin fever I took the notion to get a dead saw and rebuild it. The target saw was an 038 super - I already had one and my family has had an 038AV since the very early 80s. Both those saws have been faultless but the 038AV is ready for a refresh and I have the bits in hand to do that. I think every farm had an 038 -either AV, Super or Farmboss. Magnums are not common. Due to the numbers around I knew I could gather up bits for a rebuild and searching for info on saw rebuilds brought me to this forum and to Walt's channel. The bug bit and I appear to have accumulated a few more saws... Shortly after rebuilding the dead 038 I bought a Jonsereds 80 at a local auction. It was sold as a non-runner - primarily because someone had shortened the plug wire to the extent that it would not reach the spark plug and the compression seems to have made some folk think there was a problem with the saw.... Before doing any remedial work on it, I happened on another 80 and an XG. I bought the second 80 simply for its secondary coil - just in case there was a coil problem on the other 80. As it happens, both 80s are now running on their original coils. I havent even touched the points or carbs beyond a basic tune. One is running a 24" TsuMura with 3/8 chisel, the other a 24" roller nose bar with .404 Oregon chipper chain. They start on the second or third pull from cold every time. I smiled at one of Walt's recent videos where I glimpsed an 80 with a D handle - I have the same on my second 80 (found that a Stihl rescue saw D handle fits the hand very nicely). I picked up a nice 70E that is now running a 20" TsuMura with 3/8 chisel and it too starts on the second or third pull. I have another 70E that is however beginning to annoy me by playing up after a carb rebuild but hopefully I'll get another look at it this weekend. Following a comment by Bob in one of Walt's videos, I have picked up a few 70E parts saws _ Bob commented that it can be worthwhile picking up certain saw carcasses for the AV buffers alone. If parts were more available I'd have to give serious consideration to nominating Jonsereds as my one brand, possibly even a 70E as my one saw however, familiarity and the availability of parts would make me say that Stihl would be my one brand. I have managed to get a few yellow saws too - my favourite is a 7-10 that so far starts on the second or third pull from cold at every asking. I have an SP55 and a very clean Pro Mac 10-10 but their carbs are noticeably temperature dependent, the 10-10 in particular. The Stihls and Jonsereds never seem to need any carb tweaks but the carb screwdriver stays with the Mac pack of saws. I have one saw that "links" Jonsereds and Macs (and Partner)- its a Jonsereds 1020 that is beginning to show its Partner origins so its really an excellent illustration of yellow and red metal!  I have also gathered up a few Danarm 55 saws - basically English, licence-built Mac 2-10s, and some Homelite xl-12 and Super XLs. Homelite seems to have sold in fairly good numbers in the UK and Ireland at one time but I keep missing out on big Homelites at a reasonable price... perhaps that is a good thing!