which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?

[pdbrandt]

Hello all.  This is my first post so here's a quick intro – I'm a tree climber and own a small (1-person so far) tree care company in central NC.  I focus on tree care, pruning heritage trees, lightning protection systems, etc and have avoided removals for the most part.  Since I don't do many removals I've been able to get away with owning just two saws - both Huskys - an in tree saw and a 46cc farm/ranch saw. I've had enough jobs where I maxed out my 46cc saw that I've finally admitted that I need to get a bigger one.  I want to stick with Husqvarna and my local saw shop has three 60cc plus saws for sale: 
 
1) Husq 562XP. 60cc, 4.7hp, he is asking $475
2) Husq 575XP. 74cc, 5.4hp, asking $575  
3) Husq 365 Special. 65cc, 4.6hp, asking $475 
 
I'm looking for a saw that can easily handle a 28" bar and I anticipate that it will be used for a few jobs per month.  Which saw would you buy if you were limited to these 3 and were on a budget?  The prices all seem about $50-75 high and I'm sure I can talk him down a bit.  
 
Thanks,
 
Patrick

[Greyhound]

I don't have any advice but I'm curious what others have to say. Good luck.

[slider]

Welcome pd . I don't know much about husq saws ,mostly stihl here but i do quiet a bit of removals . I have a older 361 with a 20 in bar that has been a work horse. The saw is 10 years old so i bought a new ms 362 20 in bar . I thought about a longer bar for the new saw and then got a deal on a ms 461 32 in bar . I get into some good size trees here from time to time and in not so good places so that 461 is always with me on jobs where i need it. 
 
Two years ago i did a good size removal for a friend and he traded me a brand new 880 for the work . It has a 36 in bar and is nice on a big stump but i never use it much. The saw is fine but too heavy for me . 

Good luck on your purchase and we wish you well .

[barbender]

575 if you're going to run a 28" bar. These are used saws, I take it? I've read about the 575 having a weak crank bearing I think, but I don't have any personal experience with it.

[barbender]

Actually, that 365 would handle a 28" ok with skiptooth chain, I used to have the Jred version I ran a lot with a 24" on it.

[HolmenTree]

Welcome Patrick,
I'm a one man operation tree service owner too but I do mostly removals big and small.

My go to saw is a 562XP-20" that I bought new 5 years ago.
Still going strong and run a 24" on it for backup.
I think the 562 with 24" is plenty of saw if your used to 46cc saws. The 562 is factory rated for a 28" .

For backup I got a new MS261CM' 16" beautiful little saw.
Big wood I got two Stihl 066s that run 20" 25" 28" 36"
Husqvarna 562XP and Stihl MS362CM are the best 60cc saws out there
.

[sawguy21]

The prices don't seem out of line from a dealer. He will want to make sure they are in top shape if he has to stand behind them. I have only run the 365 then only for a short time in softwood, you would probably want skip with a 28" bar in hardwood to keep the revs up. I can't comment on the other two.

[DelawhereJoe]

With that hurricane coming your way you may want to get a new saw and skip any possible problems that a used saw may have. Any 60cc+  pro saw should do anything you want, Echo's cs 800p will run a 20-36" bar and be cheaper then its competitors in its cc size and hp class. I've heard that the 575 & 576 have had air leak problems in the past causing them to run lean and burn up so you may want to avoid them.

[Huntaholic]

Ok, first a little info on me, Im self employed in the forestry business, (logger) and have been all my life. Ive ran mostly husqvarnas all my life. I ran the 372 and its earlier ancestors up until several years ago when Husqvarna discontinued them for some stupid reason. I then switched over to the 575 series saws and never went back to the 372s after they started making them again. The 575 saw was replaced by the 576 and Ive continued to run them primarily to present day. All of these people saying this or that about issues with the 575 class saws have never ran them! When it comes to cutting big wood, I prefer the 575/576 to the 372 that everybody loves. The 575/576 WILL outcut the 372 in big wood. I typically get between 4 and 6 million board feet out of a 576 before it needs a major repair. In all the years Ive been running them I don't think Ive ever had one fail prematurely due to a defect.  

[Southside]

Well, around here you can't touch a 372 for the price of that 575. I am a 372 guy, but have never run a 575, given what others have said, who have run both, I don't think you can go wrong there. 

[Skeans1]

I'm a 562 guy but I run a 32 on mine, for years I ran a hopped up 372 it was a great saw till it grew legs one day. One thing I've noticed is the weight difference and anti vibe is much better in the 562. 

[HolmenTree]

I agree the 562 is the best choice for the OP, ..light , hyper fast powerband and smooth.
Don"t forget the OP is only used to a couple of 46cc farm saws.

[pdbrandt]

575 if you're going to run a 28" bar. These are used saws, I take it? I've read about the 575 having a weak crank bearing I think, but I don't have any personal experience with it.

Yup. They are all used saws, but in good condition.  The 575 XP is a 2004 version. The 365 special is 2014 and the 562 XP is a 2016.

[pdbrandt]

I agree the 562 is the best choice for the OP, ..light , hyper fast powerband and smooth.
Don"t forget the OP is only used to a couple of 46cc farm saws.

I'm sure I'll be spoiled quickly by a bigger saw, then will need another one...

[ehp]

your saying the 365 was made in 2014 ? Where is the decompressure on that saw ? If it is made in 2014 then it should be a 365 XT which is the same saw as the 372 just has the limited transfer covers on it . If that saw is that and in good shape I would take it over the others as they have very little trouble

[Maine logger88]

your saying the 365 was made in 2014 ? Where is the decompressure on that saw ? If it is made in 2014 then it should be a 365 XT which is the same saw as the 372 just has the limited transfer covers on it . If that saw is that and in good shape I would take it over the others as they have very little trouble

X2! 365xt/2166 is a great saw They have been my main saws for 5 years now

[Greenerpastures]

Hi
I currently have no Husqvarnas, but had a new 372xp which was a real nice saw.
Out of the three you mention, you have auto-tune and standard carb models,
if you are happy with the standard carb and making adjustments to them then
maybe keep that in mind.

Personalty I would only buy auto tune on a new saw where the warranty would
cover any repairs, electronics are know to deteriorate over time, and the vibes on
a saw could shorten that time, it will not be a cheap fix if the auto tune gives up.
not trying to scare you regarding auto tune, in my opinion the longevity needs to
be proven yet, where as a man that depends on his saw and can't afford a bunch
of cash to throw at repairing auto tune should keep this in mind.
If you have a good paying job to put her straight into that would pay for the saw,
then thats another bonus, at least you would have her paid for in the short term
making other work done a bonus / earner.

I would take the 560p, a good running one has some serious cutting potential and
will get your jobs done without wasting time, the 365 should be reliable,
slower to cut with,  slow reliable and potentioally longer life works for a lot of people
too, though heavier.

Ultimately only you (the OP) will know what suits your needs and way of working.
If the seller will allow you to try the saw for the day, after looking them
over and selecting the best one in your eyes, maybe you could hire it for a day and see how
it performs, the 562 is also a light saw to hold, that is not to be over looked if
you struggle with weight.

In all honesty, in our part of the world we run as small a bar as gets the job
done, one never sees bars like the op mentions on the saws he mentions.
The 575 would thus be a better saw on the longer bars.

Of course there are other saws, I like the Echo, they are usually well priced too,
and the Makita / Dolmar brands, all good saws, if I could not get the size and
weight and price in one model I chose another, never had a Stihl 461, seen
them cut though, and a ported one really tickles my fancy.

In any event, if money is the limiting factor, it will probably matter more
that the OP choses the saw with the lowest hours and best cared for example,
I wish him all the best with what ever he choses.

[Upstatewoodchuc]

I have to agree with the others here, if that 365 is indeed a 2014, than it's an xt, not a special and an incredible amount of saw for the money. I bought a brand new 365xt in very early 2016 and proceeded to beat it mercilessly for the next two years, it's my go to saw because it can do the work of a little saw, but has the guts to cut big stuff too without working itself to death. Always starts within 2-3 pulls no matter what temperature, and 1 pull once warmed up. All I've done to mine is clean/change air filters, sharpen chains/flip bars, and blow the sawdust out of it. I just recently had to adjust the idle a smidge and that was the first time I've touched it since new.
-Pat

[barbender]

The origjnal 365 was an underrated saw with a nice smooth power delivery.

[John Mc]

In all honesty, in our part of the world we run as small a bar as gets the job done, one never sees bars like the op mentions on the saws he mentions.

What part of the world would that be?

I agree - I typically run 16" bars on my saws, but then 80% or more of what I'm cutting is 16" diameter or less, and 95% is 20" or less. The 16" bar does not come off unless I know I'm going to be doing a significant amount of cutting over 16". I'd rather carry a smaller, lighter saw all day even if it means I occasionally have to do some extra cutting here and there.

[Pulphook]

In all honesty, in our part of the world we run as small a bar as gets the job done, one never sees bars like the op mentions on the saws he mentions.

What part of the world would that be?

I agree - I typically run 16" bars on my saws, but then 80% or more of what I'm cutting is 16" diameter or less, and 95% is 20" or less. The 16" bar does not come off unless I know I'm going to be doing a significant amount of cutting over 16". I'd rather carry a smaller, lighter saw all day even if it means I occasionally have to do some extra cutting here and there.

Nailed it. My best tool is the brain and body with that "smaller, lighter saw...all day."
Fatigue, decreased capacity for work in any weather with time leads to errors. I don't want it harvesting for hours.
Besides, with a lighter pro saw ( now down to a MS261 ) and a shorter 16" bar I can do up to +/- 24" DBH trees safely and efficiently.
The 16" bar makes it easy to touch up with a stump vise in the woodlot when touching rot, dirt, barbed wire, or the usual round in the trunk.
I'm no pro, but do take 6-8 cords out each year plus blowdowns and trail work for local groups. The 261 fits nicely in a backpack.
The "world" is Downeast Maine.

[OlJarhead]

I have a 576XP and sadly had to have it completely rebuilt under warranty.  It was running lean and no amount of adjusting (by the local Husky repair folks) would stop it from burning up.  Sent it off and got it back running nicely.  It's still going well but I'm not too keen on pushing it.

[Greenerpastures]

In all honesty, in our part of the world we run as small a bar as gets the job done, one never sees bars like the op mentions on the saws he mentions.

Hi John Mc
Am in Ireland

Forestry wise there are no real big trees here, old oak and larch is getting hard 
to find, but when you do the larger bar is the way to go,
though it is always safer to only go for what the body can handle,
age soon creeps in and has its impact on what weight we can handle,
I think it is is more important to haul only what feels comfortable with regardless of tree size,
a young fit person will obviously handle more power and weight safely, all else being equal.

Regarding the 575, read elswhere they are not selling, they are a pound heavier than a 372
Husqvarna, and that 372 cuts better, they will only sell in numbers when the 372 is out of production,
as it will not meet the emissions criteria, I would avoid adding weight to my day, thats just me.

What part of the world would that be?

I agree - I typically run 16" bars on my saws, but then 80% or more of what I'm cutting is 16" diameter or less, and 95% is 20" or less. The 16" bar does not come off unless I know I'm going to be doing a significant amount of cutting over 16". I'd rather carry a smaller, lighter saw all day even if it means I occasionally have to do some extra cutting here and there.

[Greenerpastures]

I have a 576XP and sadly had to have it completely rebuilt under warranty.  It was running lean and no amount of adjusting (by the local Husky repair folks) would stop it from burning up.  Sent it off and got it back running nicely.  It's still going well but I'm not too keen on pushing it.

Sorry to hear that, very disappointing to spend ones cash and have to go through
such a repair, I know a lot of people who had melt downs and they were messed
about something chronic, shop blaming them and refusing to sort the saws, pleased
you at least got sorted, I am stumped though that this sort of thing is still happening
with the time they have had to fine tune this system, will it ever be fixed or are they
nursing it along until the come out with fuel injection systems, hard to beat an ordinary
carb, they could have been smart enough to enable the fitting of a normal carb and just
let the auto-tune handle the spark timing, I for one would be swapping in a carb if this was
the case, wonder who is really to blame for lumbering us with this epa rubbish, did the epa
push the manufacturers, did the manufacturers push the epa, or are they in together so we
have to keep replacing our machines thus making someone else rich.

[HolmenTree]

In all honesty, in our part of the world we run as small a bar as gets the job done, one never sees bars like the op mentions on the saws he mentions.

What part of the world would that be?

I agree - I typically run 16" bars on my saws, but then 80% or more of what I'm cutting is 16" diameter or less, and 95% is 20" or less. The 16" bar does not come off unless I know I'm going to be doing a significant amount of cutting over 16". I'd rather carry a smaller, lighter saw all day even if it means I occasionally have to do some extra cutting here and there.

Nailed it. My best tool is the brain and body with that "smaller, lighter saw...all day."
Fatigue, decreased capacity for work in any weather with time leads to errors. I don't want it harvesting for hours.
Besides, with a lighter pro saw ( now down to a MS261 ) and a shorter 16" bar I can do up to +/- 24" DBH trees safely and efficiently.
The 16" bar makes it easy to touch up with a stump vise in the woodlot when touching rot, dirt, barbed wire, or the usual round in the trunk.
I'm no pro, but do take 6-8 cords out each year plus blowdowns and trail work for local groups. The 261 fits nicely in a backpack.
The "world" is Downeast Maine.

Actually with a 90° open face cut (humbolt on bottom cut) you can cut a much larger diameter tree then 32" with a 16" bar.
Here my 1986 Stihl 064 owner manual explains it quite well.

Also a video of Soren Ericcson using a early 064 with a 18" or 20" b/c making a good presentation.
I got a pile of  Soren's 1980's safety instruction VCR tapes.
This one I put on YouTube (thanks to my 11 year old daughter :D) by my phone recording off the TV screen.
Good thing I kept my old VCR



 

 
https:/youtu.be/pLAvjw7lb9A

[pdbrandt]

Thank you for all the advice, guys.  Especially useful was the advice about using the smallest bar feasible.  When I went out yesterday to check out the saws the 562 was already sold.  The 365 special was having trouble getting started and had clearly seen a lot of use.  The 575 was a beast with a 28" bar.  It ran well and would have worked well for me, but I ended up buying a saw from the guy that I didn't know about when I posted the original message.  I got a never-before-used 2009 Redmax GZ7000 for $475. It is the identical twin to the Husqvarna 570.  I used it this morning to cut up a 28" diameter maple trunk and I'm very happy with it.  Thanks again.

[John Mc]

The "world" is Downeast Maine.

You might want to edit your profile to include that. It's often helpful in discussions on here knowing where someone is from, since that gives you at least some idea of what conditions are like in their area.

[John Mc]

Actually with a 90° open face cut (humbolt on bottom cut) you can cut a much larger diameter tree then 32" with a 16" bar.
Here my 1986 Stihl 064 owner manual explains it quite well.

Also a video of Soren Ericcson using a early 064 with a 18" or 20" b/c making a good presentation.
I got a pile of  Soren's 1980's safety instruction VCR tapes.
This one I put on YouTube (thanks to my 11 year old daughter :D) by my phone recording off the TV screen.
Good thing I kept my old VCR



 

 
https:/youtu.be/pLAvjw7lb9A

I have used that a few times, though it's very seldom needed for the size trees I typically run into around here. For the most part, if I need that technique, it's an old "wolf pine" that grew up in a pasture years ago, and has now had a forest grow up around it.
BTW, that's a nice diagram. Since I'm artistically challenged, my attempts at tree felling drawings generally aren't very recognizable. (Some years ago, my daughter looked at one of my stump sketches and said, "no, Daddy, that's not how you draw a horsey!")

[DelawhereJoe]

I think those RedMax are re-labeled / rebranded Jonsered saws. So basically you have a Husqvarna 372xp thats red & black with a Jonsered sticker covered up by a RedMax sticker. It should do everything you need it to do and if it does there are tons of parts out there to fix it. It will definitely save you time and money over the small saws, just be careful with all that extra power.

[Pulphook]

Soren E. is the originator of GOL. It is competitive sport as method teaching.

[John Mc]

Soren E. is the originator of GOL. It is competitive sport as method teaching.

They do make a bit of a "just for fun" competition out of their classes, but I wouldn't call it competitive sport, unless you choose to enter in the regional and national events, which involve some serious competition. Those regional competitions are not about teaching, they are a competition plain and simple - but they are not really a part of the courses they offer (other than making use of the techniques taught in those courses)

[Skeans1]

In all honesty, in our part of the world we run as small a bar as gets the job done, one never sees bars like the op mentions on the saws he mentions.

What part of the world would that be?

I agree - I typically run 16" bars on my saws, but then 80% or more of what I'm cutting is 16" diameter or less, and 95% is 20" or less. The 16" bar does not come off unless I know I'm going to be doing a significant amount of cutting over 16". I'd rather carry a smaller, lighter saw all day even if it means I occasionally have to do some extra cutting here and there.

Nailed it. My best tool is the brain and body with that "smaller, lighter saw...all day."
Fatigue, decreased capacity for work in any weather with time leads to errors. I don't want it harvesting for hours.
Besides, with a lighter pro saw ( now down to a MS261 ) and a shorter 16" bar I can do up to +/- 24" DBH trees safely and efficiently.
The 16" bar makes it easy to touch up with a stump vise in the woodlot when touching rot, dirt, barbed wire, or the usual round in the trunk.
I'm no pro, but do take 6-8 cords out each year plus blowdowns and trail work for local groups. The 261 fits nicely in a backpack.
The "world" is Downeast Maine.

Actually with a 90° open face cut (humbolt on bottom cut) you can cut a much larger diameter tree then 32" with a 16" bar.
Here my 1986 Stihl 064 owner manual explains it quite well.

Also a video of Soren Ericcson using a early 064 with a 18" or 20" b/c making a good presentation.
I got a pile of  Soren's 1980's safety instruction VCR tapes.
This one I put on YouTube (thanks to my 11 year old daughter :D) by my phone recording off the TV screen.
Good thing I kept my old VCR



 

 
https:/youtu.be/pLAvjw7lb9A

What no block face or windows?

[HolmenTree]

Soren is just doing a one on one  tree demonstration. He's not working off a face on a logging strip. :D

[Pulphook]

They do make a bit of a "just for fun" competition out of their classes, but I wouldn't call it competitive sport, unless you choose to enter in the regional and national events, which involve some serious competition. Those regional competitions are not about teaching, they are a competition plain and simple - but they are not really a part of the courses they offer (other than making use of the techniques taught in those courses)

Our GOL 4 part course was run by MEMIC in Maine. The method of instruction for cuts was a very competitive sport, and fun.
Example: dropping a tree to a target stake when the lean was 90 degrees opposite to the fall. Or, in a 20" DBH trunk making the 2 bore cuts meet without cutting through the hinge. Tough at first...humbling.
If we didn't use the brake when moving around a tree, the instructor would tap us on the shoulder, stop the cut and de-brief the errors. It was like a benevolent D.I. :'(

[HolmenTree]

I had the same issue about 8 years ago when I took a "train the trainer course" for a arborist training company.
We were all having turns in 2 man teams measuring the tree height with a stick and felling it .
While making my face and backcuts I walked more then 2 steps without putting the brake on, I got my hand swatted twice by a stick  :D
My whole game plan was a mess and I was running that saw like a beginner

[John Mc]

They do make a bit of a "just for fun" competition out of their classes, but I wouldn't call it competitive sport, unless you choose to enter in the regional and national events, which involve some serious competition. Those regional competitions are not about teaching, they are a competition plain and simple - but they are not really a part of the courses they offer (other than making use of the techniques taught in those courses)

Our GOL 4 part course was run by MEMIC in Maine. The method of instruction for cuts was a very competitive sport, and fun.
Example: dropping a tree to a target stake when the lean was 90 degrees opposite to the fall. Or, in a 20" DBH trunk making the 2 bore cuts meet without cutting through the hinge. Tough at first...humbling.
If we didn't use the brake when moving around a tree, the instructor would tap us on the shoulder, stop the cut and de-brief the errors. It was like a benevolent D.I. :'(

Sounds just a lot mine, but compared to the regional and national competitions, this is more just something to make it interesting. All of the folks in all of the classes I took were very supportive of each other, and as one person was cutting, the instructor was pointing out to the rest of us things they were doing correctly and things they were missing. I learned as much from the commented observation as I did from actually felling the trees using the GOL techniques. In my GOL 4 class, we spent the day intentionally hanging up trees, and then using a variety of techniques to get them free.

[Maine logger88]

I had the same issue about 8 years ago when I took a "train the trainer course" for a arborist training company.
We were all having turns in 2 man teams measuring the tree height with a stick and felling it .
While making my face and backcuts I made more then 2 steps without putting the brake on, I got my hand swatted twice by a stick  :D
My whole game plan was a mess and I was running that saw like a beginner

When I took the clp course the chain brake thing and keeping my face shield down are what got me in trouble the most lol

[ehp]

I got my master ticket for Ontario , Im suppose to be one of 6 people with it . My biggest problem was when they said I had to use a file guide to sharpen a chain and I told them I would not , they said there was no way I could hand file as good as they could using a guide so I hand filed a chain and gave it to them to look at and 5 seconds later I got to take the chain off his hands , he grabbed it and was going to just move it around like a new chain , that's a big no no and the blood was flowing pretty good . After that we seem to get along a lot better ;D

[John Mc]

In my life, I've met a couple dozen of people who say they can freehand file a chain as good or better than with a guide. I've met 3 who actually could. (Sadly, I am not one of them - not that I've made a serious effort at learning. The results I get with a guide work fine for me.)

Ed, I can believe that you are one of those who actually can.

[ehp]

a guide will dull the chain as you slide it along , yes I know for most people that still pretty sharp but Im not most people and cannot stand how a chain cuts after using a guide or a new chain out of the box , even stihl 33rs does not cut and has to be filed when brand new 

[OlJarhead]

I have a 576XP and sadly had to have it completely rebuilt under warranty.  It was running lean and no amount of adjusting (by the local Husky repair folks) would stop it from burning up.  Sent it off and got it back running nicely.  It's still going well but I'm not too keen on pushing it.

Sorry to hear that, very disappointing to spend ones cash and have to go through
such a repair, I know a lot of people who had melt downs and they were messed
about something chronic, shop blaming them and refusing to sort the saws, pleased
you at least got sorted, I am stumped though that this sort of thing is still happening
with the time they have had to fine tune this system, will it ever be fixed or are they
nursing it along until the come out with fuel injection systems, hard to beat an ordinary
carb, they could have been smart enough to enable the fitting of a normal carb and just
let the auto-tune handle the spark timing, I for one would be swapping in a carb if this was
the case, wonder who is really to blame for lumbering us with this epa rubbish, did the epa
push the manufacturers, did the manufacturers push the epa, or are they in together so we
have to keep replacing our machines thus making someone else rich.

Mine isn't an autotune but they have made it so you cannot richen up the saw enough.  It was running lean and I kept getting the run around from the local 'approved' repair shop.  Sent the saw back to the original retailer and they took care of me.  I've not pushed the saw yet but I've run it enough to 'break it in' I believe.  Plan to run it harder soon though and see what happens.

[John Mc]

a guide will dull the chain as you slide it along , yes I know for most people that still pretty sharp but Im not most people and cannot stand how a chain cuts after using a guide or a new chain out of the box , even stihl 33rs does not cut and has to be filed when brand new

You lost me there. How does this guide dull a chain? It makes absolutely no contact with the cutting surfaces.



I tend to use the one shown below (though I have and do use both styles). I can understand the concern over dulling the chain, since it rests on top of the cutting tooth during use. However, even then, it's just about parallel to the top plate. If you are putting the kind of down pressure on the guide that would deform the cutting edge of the top plate, you are most likely not using it correctly. The sharpening stone I use to sharpen knives is at a steeper angle to the blade, and uses similar (or greater) pressure, but does not dull the knife.


Note: I'm not saying that you don't get better-performing chains by hand sharpening, Ed. Lord knows, you've done a lot more of this than I have. I'm just questioning if that is because the guides somehow dull the chain, or if you have developed a technique that results in a better or more aggressive cutting profile.

I doubt the guides give the best results for all uses. For instance, all of the roller guides I've found are set up to guide you to a 30˚ angle. For me, that's OK for semi-chisel chain, but I prefer a 25˚ angle for full chisel chain. (25˚ also happens to be what the manufacturer recommends. Maybe I'd find an angle or a depth I like better if I played around with it enough. I just haven't taken the time to experiment.)

To the OP: sorry for the topic drift. I hope at least some of the discussion is of interest.

[outinthewood]

As already said, a little devation from the original question but ! The Husqvarna guide shown ( the blue one) will not cause any drag across the tooth but will wear on the rollers and end up giving to much of a "hook" on the cutter. If you hold the solid "stihl" or "oregon" metal type guide as intended i.e pressure to the rear of the tooth then no problem but if you don't do that then yes you are dragging the frame across the cutter edge ! I said in an other post that I cut a lot of windblown timber and on the sale I've just finished yesterday I was sharpening 6/7 times on a 400mt run, I'm in front of a harvester so it's all about time so I freehand and about every 4 times use a guide or with the best will in the world you just go to far into the back of the cutter and too much hook ! I'm well aware of Mr EHP rep and was of the same view but the clue is in the name "guide" I find I get a good bit longer out of a chain doing this. 

[HolmenTree]

Ed is right the file holder guide does dull a cutting edge.
The trouble is the rib in the middle where the middle of the file rests on snags the cutting edge on both ends of the rib.
Here is a brand new Oregon file holder guide that I marked the underside of the rib with a black felt marker.
With just a few strokes of the file on the cutter both ends of the rib has a shiny wear mark on them from the cutting edge.


 

Also notice the wear marks on the chrome layer on top of the cutter. This is just from 2 strokes from the hardened steel guide.
Not good for the longevity of the chrome layer throughout the life of the chain.

Another trouble with any kind of guide is you can't support the cutter you're filing with your free hand.
I like to get a solid grip of the cutter I'm filing, which makes filing accuracy such much easier.
Using a guide is like trying to filet a fish while it's still flopping around :D

[Skeans1]

Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?

[John Mc]

Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?

Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).

[Skeans1]

Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?

Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).

Why don't you guys west of the Rockies run square?

[HolmenTree]

Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?

Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).

Why don't you guys west of the Rockies run square?

Another history lesson Skeans. :P
Square ground chisel bit chain and old growth fir, cedar and redwood go together like bread and butter.
Starting about 60 years ago handfallers in that timber needed a slick cutting chain to pull those big 1/2" chisel chains (some bigger in 9/16" 5/8") with long bars in softwood that will plug up a round filed chain.
Making stumps 4 ft off the ground and walking on the tree to limb it poses alot less  danger dulling those keen edges.
Outside of the PNW center of the universe loggers have perfected felling ,limbing, topping and bucking smaller timber at ground level. 
We can whip out the file and touch up a 20" chain in just a few minutes and go back at it..... and him and his skidder operator partner will have 60 cords of 50 ft tree length in the landing by the end of the day.
Now how many fallers on the west coastal areas touch up or can hand file a badly dull chain at the stump today?
Maybe fumbling changing out bench ground chains?
You ever see a good butcher or chef who can't sharpen his tools right on the job?

[Skeans1]

Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?

Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).

Why don't you guys west of the Rockies run square?

Another history lesson Skeans. :P
Square ground chisel bit chain and old growth fir, cedar and redwood go together like bread and butter.
Starting about 60 years ago handfallers in that timber needed a slick cutting chain to pull those big 1/2" chisel chains (some bigger in 9/16" 5/8") with long bars in softwood that will plug up a round filed chain.
Making stumps 4 ft off the ground and walking on the tree to limb it poses alot less  danger dulling those keen edges.
Outside of the PNW center of the universe loggers have perfected felling ,limbing, topping and bucking smaller timber at ground level.
We can whip out the file and touch up a 20" chain in just a few minutes and go back at it..... and him and his skidder operator partner will have 60 cords of 50 ft tree length in the landing by the end of the day.
Now how many fallers on the west coastal areas touch up or can hand file a badly dull chain at the stump today?
Maybe fumbling changing out bench ground chains?
You ever see a good butcher or chef who can't sharpen his tools right on the job?

There's still a few of us that can file both to get through a day, even so how many cord is a 200' say 3.5' on the stump fir? Most of us swap out the chains because it's more productive when you can only hand cut for six hours a day. These same chains do really well in hardwoods as well such as alder, maple, and oak. Last time I was on a job that was hand fell all the stumps were ground level faces put in on the low side undercut first for as low as possible, heck most of the back cuts were just a small step.

[HolmenTree]

Logging where I'm at on level ground with line or grapple skidders and where  you're at  are apples and oranges in total differences.

Back in the 1960's when us farmers here thought we were good loggers, we didn't know what real production was until the Frenchmen from Quebec and the Finlanders showed up, they doubled our production and we learned real quick.

Best production here in limbed 55 ft topped at 3.5 "spruce and iack pine treelength with butts at average 12"- 16" diameter piled at the landing for 2 guys is 60 cord average a day . 
Thats alot of trees and we worked 7 to 8 hrs 5 days a week.

And I can guarantee you any of the fallers in our camps can file a round filed 72LG or 33 RS  chain at the stump and make it cut faster in a 16" log then most of your guys trying to do the same with a square file.

[HolmenTree]

Here's some food for thought from 1965.


 

 

 

  

[John Mc]

I don't use square ground chain because while it may cut faster when freshly sharpened, it also dulls faster. I'm cutting almost all hardwoods, low to the ground and not always in the cleanest of conditions (though not dirty enough to warrant using a semi-chisel chain, IMO). Round-ground - or in my case, round filed - chisel chains seem to match my needs well.

Also, I can hand-file round filed chain and get good results. I've never tried to do that on square-ground chain, but I understand it is more difficult. I don't think I'd have a prayer of doing it right if I didn't have my reading glasses with me, but I can still seem to get good results without my glasses on round ground chain (though it is easier if I have my glasses on).

[John Mc]

Ed is right the file holder guide does dull a cutting edge.
The trouble is the rib in the middle where the middle of the file rests on snags the cutting edge on both ends of the rib.
Here is a brand new Oregon file holder guide that I marked the underside of the rib with a black felt marker.
With just a few strokes of the file on the cutter both ends of the rib has a shiny wear mark on them from the cutting edge.

I stand corrected. I forgot all about that little rib. Mine does show a slight mark. I'll have to sharpen with out that guide and compare a before and after running the guide over it. I'll be interested how much it deforms the tooth. I know if my file is getting dull, I do tend to use more pressure (I know... replace the file, but I don't always have a spare with me in the woods.)

[HolmenTree]

John, you ask "I'll be interested how much the rib deforms the tooth?"

Well think of rubbing the edge of your sharpest pocket knife on that hardened steel rib.
Or better yet a razor sharp wood chisel.

[ehp]

Its just me but I'm so picky even on my race chains I cut them free hand and NEVER lay a racker depth gauge on the tooth .

[HolmenTree]

Same here.
Back in the '80s I used to use a hard plastic raker gauge with a steel slotted plate in the center to file on.

The plastic body rested on the depth gauge and top of the cutting edge so no worries about hurting the cutting edge.
Lost it years ago, couldn't find another since. Made in Australia.

I've been free hand filing for so long now I just swipe the depth gauges a certain way with the flat file and don't bother checking it.
Long as my eyes hold out I"ll be good to go for a bit longer.

[John Mc]

John, you ask "I'll be interested how much the rib deforms the tooth?"

Well think of rubbing the edge of your sharpest pocket knife on that hardened steel rib.
Or better yet a razor sharp wood chisel.

I have been thinking about that. I have not pulled out my gauge to actually check the angle, but if it's just a few degrees, it may not be deforming it much at all. Depending on the angle, it could be like "steeling" a knife after sharpening. Also, at least the corner would be somewhat protected if you are filing out toward the point, rather than back into it.

I'm also thinking several light swipes with the guide sliding along it is doing a whole lot less to the edge than even just a few cuts in a hard oak log.
BTW, I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative or disrespectful on this point. I recognize that both of you have a whole lot more experience at this than I do. I also have no interest in competing in chainsaw racing. I just enjoy thinking about this sort of thing when I have some "down time", and it's great to have people like you to run my thoughts by.

[outinthewood]

This has taken a turn down a side street well away from the original question ! As always a nice bit of background from Mr H. I first started sawing at the age of 14 on the farm and was introduced to a common guide made of alloy which was very simple and i'm sure not that accurate but it worked and as I mentioned it is only a guide ... I have a modern copy of that alloy guide which is now made of "white metal" or "pot metal" if you like so no danger of any damage to the plating on the cutter , however, I wil go out tmr and do a look but I don't remember catching the cutting edge with a guide to the extreme that I dulled the cutter ? Now a race chain or a square ground chain is a horse of another colour and in that vein of course a chain out of a box will be better after being re-filed since it has rubbed against it's self in the box ! I did try Square chain and can hand file it ok but just found it was to fine for my conditions. Chains are just like saws it's how "you" like them and get on with them ...Now at 55yrs old I still try anything to make my working day better and more productive. 

[HolmenTree]

All is good guys  
Yes we got a little side tracked but it did all start when OP  gpbrant  settled for the Redmax, thanked everyone and signed off. I myself got a bit carried away....all or nothing :-[

My apologies to everyone.

[John Mc]

All is good guys
Yes we got a little side tracked but it did all start when OP  gpbrant  settled for the Redmax, thanked everyone and signed off. I myself got a bit carried away....all or nothing :-[

My apologies to everyone.

No need to apologize, IMO. Sometimes the side tracks are as interesting as the original discussion.

[lxskllr]

Yup, conversations have a natural flow. They ebb and flow, diverge from the original topic, sometimes return, sometimes not. It's more natural and interesting. Few want to go through life writing technical manuals that stay precisely on topic, going to a new chapter when the conversation changes. It's easy enough to pull things back if needed. "Hey! About that Redmax. Should I get it in red, or purple paisley?"  :^D

[HolmenTree]

All is good guys
Yes we got a little side tracked but it did all start when OP  gpbrant  settled for the Redmax, thanked everyone and signed off. I myself got a bit carried away....all or nothing :-[

My apologies to everyone.

No need to apologize, IMO. Sometimes the side tracks are as interesting as the original discussion.

Yup, we kept it going didn"t we, its not even close to February yet when derails really do go overboard :D

[thecfarm]

I learned something.
Most times it goes back to whatever was posted and if it don't..........
Well I guess all was answered than. ;D

[ehp]

I file the same on my work chain as a race chain , I donot use file holders or racker gauge but that's just me . I never had much to do with the husky 570 but did run and port the 575 , did build a few of those