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Hinge or no?

Started by wbrent, April 17, 2021, 04:27:50 PM

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wbrent

I've got some experience cutting softwood. Spruce, fir, cedar and tamarack. Mostly medium size trees.  Say under 20" diameter. The odd tree bigger. Limited amounts of hardwood. The last hardwood tree I cut I attempted a hinge, which turns out was too thick. The end result was a severe barber chair which ruined most of what I wanted out of the tree. So now I'm after another white ash. Bigger than my last one. 26" at the butt. Would you do the hinge or just cut a good heavy wedge and start cutting from the backside. Adding wedges along the way. That's what I've done with my bigger spruce with success. But like I said I have limited experience with ash. 

gman98

If I understand what you're saying, you're cutting trees off the stump without cutting a notch to establish direction of fall?  If so, you're lucky only a barber chair has happened.  That hinge is extremely important in my opinion.  That's what controls the tree as it falls.  How thick of a hinge had you left before?  On hardwoods we are usually leaving 1-1.5" of hinge.  A bit more on exceptionally big trees.
Forest technician and part time equipment operator.  Looking to get set up with some logging equipment of my own.

wbrent

No. Always cutting a notch. My hinge when I had the fail was more like 4" wide. 
My other issue is that my biggest bar is 20". So I'll have to bore through from both sides and hope they line up. I'll probably get a family member to help line those cuts up. 

Southside

Ash loves to barberchair. Is this EAB killed Ash? If so there are other issues to be concerned with.  

When felling Ash I prefer a Humboldt face and then bore cut it,  release the trigger and you avoid the chair, fiber pull, and stress break from the hinge snapping off if the face closes before it's down all the way. 
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wbrent

Not a dead tree. I'll have to look up Humboldt face. 

Old Greenhorn

X2 what southside said, watch for the overhead stuff, on dying ash that will kill you quick. If the tree is dead, go for a 1.5" hinge. To help line up those bore cuts, stand at the opposite side of the tree from where you are going to do you first bore, lay your bar on the flat horizontal face of the notch (so it is (hopefully) parallel to the ground) and rev the saw and drag it around the tree keeping it level and at the same height until you get to where you are doing your first bore and pop that in. Then go back to the other side and bore in on the same line holding the bar level and you should meet the other cut. Even if you don't exactly meet, as long as the cuts overlap you are fine, those fibers between won't hold anything back. If the tree is dead, leave as much of a trigger as you can. On dead trees the wood is brittle and might break before you expect it. Before you cut the trigger, if the tree even looks a little like it might set back, drive two wedges in on each side of the bore cuts as far back (away from the hinge) as you dare. This is both a safety, and a 'plan B'. if you cut the trigger and it doesn't fall on it's own, you already have wedges to nudge it over. Be careful driving wedges on dead trees, the shock can send a widow maker your way fast.
 A humbolt is just a regular notch with the angled face on the bottom and many cutters put the back cut 1" higher than the face cut on the face notch. I keep mine of the same level.. just because I can. ;D
 Be safe and keep looking up.
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Skeans1

 

 

 These are modified humboldt faces, a traditional humboldt is a block style face. The biggest advantage to a humboldt is the waste is left on the stump and the tree is less likely to come back at you.

John Mc

Quote from: wbrent on April 17, 2021, 05:38:57 PMNo. Always cutting a notch. My hinge when I had the fail was more like 4" wide. My other issue is that my biggest bar is 20". So I'll have to bore through from both sides and hope they line up. I'll probably get a family member to help line those cuts up.


A rough rule of thumb is that the hinge thickness should be about 10% of the tree's DBH (diameter at breast height). The length of the hinge should be at least 80% of the DBH. So for example for a 20" tree you'd want a 2" thick hinge about 16" long. This is not an iron clad rule: it can vary for certain species of trees, or certain situations. However, it's a good place to start.

While it's nice if your bore cuts line up, there is no need for them to match up exactly. What's important is that you sever all of the fibers, even if the bore cuts are mismatched in height by a bit (and it's important that you don't mess up the hinge thickness by unintentionally cutting into it while boring.) So if the bore is 8" off the ground when coming in from one side, and 9" off the ground when boring in from the other, it makes zero difference on how the tree falls, as long as you have done the rest of your cutting appropriately.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

stavebuyer

Bore cut. Leave a little holding wood at both corners of your notch. Make your felling from the backside and tap a wedge or 2 in behind your felling cut as you go toward your notch to be sure your have your direction right. If the wedges get loose as you cut you guessed right. It will keep you alive while your learning how much wood you need to leave.

Ianab

Another vote for bore cutting in this scenario. What it does is give you time to trim up the hinge wood "just so" before the tree even thinks about starting to move. Having a shorter bar and needing to cut from both sides probably makes this more important. You now have time to putz around on both sides of the stump setting up the hinge. 

Once you are happy with your notch and hinge, work back towards the holding wood at the back. If you aren't 100% sure the tree is going to fall forward, tap in some wedges. Then nip off the holding wood. If it doesn't move, well you have the wedges in place to persuade it. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

KEC

I admit that I am not the last word on this topic, but many years ago an experienced co-worker told me that when you are about to fell a tree to be sure that the saw is topped off with fluids and that is is freshly sharpened. Then when you make a felling cut you can breeze through to the point where you stop and leave the hinge and reduce the chances of a barber chair. Makes a lot of sense to me.

firefighter ontheside

Was your tree that barber chaired a heavy leaner or heavily weighted on one side?  That's gotta be the number one cause of barber chair.  Bore cutting is very good for reducing the chance of barber chair.  Of course hinge placement and thickness are very important as John Mc detailed their sizes in relation to the DBH of the tree.  I find that with dead trees the hinge needs to be a little thinner as the wood becomes more stiff.
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Southside

Yea - running out of fuel with a veneer log in your face makes for a miserable day when you hear the big crack as you pour fuel.  Only took one time to learn that lesson.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

KEC

When I hauled logs there was a cutter cutting a woodlot for the company I worked for. He got a bright idea to cut the notches in a bunch of ash trees and then fell them the next day; bad idea. The next morning they were all down and barber chaired. He was a very experienced cutter, I never fiqured out why he didn't know better.

Skeans1

Quote from: KEC on April 17, 2021, 09:57:33 PM
When I hauled logs there was a cutter cutting a woodlot for the company I worked for. He got a bright idea to cut the notches in a bunch of ash trees and then fell them the next day; bad idea. The next morning they were all down and barber chaired. He was a very experienced cutter, I never fiqured out why he didn't know better.
Never dominoed a set before? That's what sounds like he was setting up and something went wrong.

mike_belben

The simplest way i can put it is that a barberchair is when the top says "im going" but the stump says "no your not"  and the fibers of the trunk are divided into two camps quite literally.  


Make the hingewood thin enough that it cannot compromise the buttlog.  Also be sure the hingewood is not from bark to bark.  That is to say "nip the sapwood" or "box the hinge" .. Cut very slightly into the narrow ends of the hinge.. If the buttcut is 30" diameter, have a 28" long hinge.   In straight grain trees prone to chairing it is wise even to "gut the heart" so that even the middle of the hinge is gone and theres 2 brownie sized "tabs" or "pins" for a hinge. 


Watch your chip color to know youre in good wood while setting up. 



Praise The Lord

John Mc

Quote from: mike_belben on April 17, 2021, 11:11:40 PMThe simplest way i can put it is that a barberchair is when the top says "im going" but the stump says "no your not" and the fibers of the trunk are divided into two camps quite literally.


Probably one of the better brief descriptions I've heard. A forward lean just makes that argument more likely to take place, unless you take steps to avoid it.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

SwampDonkey

What John mentioned is good advise. Often the hinge, thus wedge is way too small. And be sure your felling path is clear. Hanging up a tree into another can easily split your but log when your hinge is too short compared to stump diameter. Make a good deep wedge, it does want to be at least 30 degrees. Shallow hinge can definitely cause a split. I'm mostly cutting trees up to 20", aspen and fir. I know where my tree is going, with 95% confidence, I plan each cut as I'm thinning and not just knocking down trees. You can't work against gravity (and wind) without other equipment involved. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

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grabber green

wbrent, Please find someone in your area that knows how to cut hardwood timber and spend some time in the woods with them. I could tell you how to fall trees online all day long but it's just not the same as learning in person. Guys from different parts of the world have different ideas and use different terms, this only adds to the confusion.  There is no reason to ruin anymore saw logs or worse , possibly injure yourself.  Good luck.

Hans1

This is going to go against all the other good advice here but I would go without any hinge. Determine the lean or the weight of the crown, bore in on the lean side first leaving a 2-3" strap along the edge normally a root flare. Cut out the entire middle of the tree leaving 2 other straps. Now go back and cut the down hill strap the the tree should settle then cut the next remaining  straps.  I mainly cut walnut and we absolutely can't have fiber pull from a hinge. If you search Turner Logging this guy has a lot of good info and they cut almost all the trees this way. Be safe if you are still learning the basics and not comfortable with boring you may not want to cut this way.

Clark

Quote from: Hans1 on April 18, 2021, 09:09:30 AM
This is going to go against all the other good advice here but I would go without any hinge.
Let me be the first to say that is horrible advice for someone who appears to be new to felling trees.

Look up bore cutting, practice on several small trees and work your way up to the bigger stuff.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Skeans1

One thing I've noticed is everyone is saying fall with the lean with a bore cut for a back cut. Think about this you're asking for a barber chair your walking right behind said loaded gun at that point if you go 90 degrees away from the lean does it have a chance of chairing yes but it's likely. If you are going to fall with the lean another good method if the Coos Bay back cut that way you're not boring in with the tip of bar.

wbrent

 

 

 

 
Sorry I messed up the pictures but hoping you can see the tree from a couple different angles. Its sloping up hill. 

firefighter ontheside

There's no question for me.  I would use a boring back cut method.  You get to determine the thickness of the hinge and control when it will fall.  Wedges can be placed to help it go the way you want.  The thickness of the hinge is very important.  Too thin and it can be crushed.  When you're ready to fell the tree, you cut the holding wood and you are not down in the cut close to the trunk.  Make sure that your holding wood is strong enough to keep the fibers from tearing.  Having said that, have you ever done a boring back cut?
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Ianab

Quote from: firefighter ontheside on April 18, 2021, 01:45:46 PMHaving said that, have you ever done a boring back cut?


If you haven't, practice on some regular smaller trees to start with. Ones that you could cut perfectly OK with a conventional notch and back cut. You are just practicing the technique. It's not something you have to do all the time, but it's a very good method to know.  
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

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