Now own 3 only one set up for now
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Hope to add more photos very some
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You need a sawdust blower.
have a drag system to put on
Some times that's better than a blower. I always say this to bellsaw owners; somebody should design a set works for it that works better and especially holds back. If you can get your hand on a real sawmill set works you will agree.
I fully agree I also have an American mill and it handles the large logs much better. I wanted a mill I could move and the belsaw fit that bill. I've sawed some pretty large logs on my belsaw. And a chain drag robs less power then a blower. that's why I like them.
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My American Mill
I always thought about putting a bellsaw on steel box beams for skids and dragging it into red cedar stands. I don't like wheels on a sawmill unless you can knock them off. Used to be a few No. 1 Americans around here. I have some nice literature on them.
I have an old catalog for the American Company a reprint. Most of the mills in this area are made with parts from different mills. I will probably get a band mill someday if the price is right to resaw with. I just really like my circular mills. also would like to build a sash mill some day
Can't believe you said that. I too wanted to build a sash mill, actually an up and down sawmill for oversize logs. My idea was to have a saw blade made with inserted teeth. That's because those monster logs will have metal. I presume your big sawmill is a No. 1 with belt feed. One of my sawmill mentors ran one with friction feed, a real old one. This American had been converted to log beam style carriage.
The Belsaw is the only circle mill I have seen where you don't have to walk around an engine and husk to off bear. Truly a one man mill. Probably its only redeeming feature other than price. My Belsaw track is oval and in 10 foot sections but the ends do not match up very good because the ends are slightly lower than the rest of the section. It results in a rather bumpy ride for the carriage. I was thinking of welding the sections together and carefully grinding the welds smooth for a smoother ride. Anything wrong with this idea?
Trapper, can you shim the ends of your track, any unevenness is like poison to a circular mill. Belsaw carriages are very flexible and will follow any anomalies in the track and that causes the saw to rub and heat. Frank C.
You really can't shim them straight. The 10' sections of pressed 3/16" C channel are not particularly straight and then the double angle track is welded to them so the track has a slight camber from end to end every 10'. I didn't weld my joints just shimmed the ends in line and bolted angle across the joint and have meant to replace the track with heavier 20' sections of C channel or rectangular tube. The main offender is of course where you are loading and turning.
My problem is that the track sections are miss manufactured at the ends, I should have cut off a quarter inch at each end when I first installed. What effect will temperature changes have on a 46 foot piece of solid track. Ever hear a metal roof when the sun hits it? But I suppose the steel frame that the track is bolted to is also expanding and contracting at the same time.
Quote from: Trapper John on March 22, 2019, 01:07:18 AM
The Belsaw is the only circle mill I have seen where you don't have to walk around an engine and husk to off bear.
Dixon and Utilizer circle mills also had an in-board "husk".
Hey Cutting Edge reslly injoyed or conversation today snd thanks for the info on band blades
Trapper John weld them up and grind smoorh can always cut them apart later if needed
Quote from: jimparamedic on March 20, 2019, 01:03:50 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on March 20, 2019, 09:34:20 PM
Some times that's better than a blower. I always say this to bellsaw owners; somebody should design a set works for it that works better and especially holds back. If you can get your hand on a real sawmill set works you will agree.
A few questions. There is some play in my carriage wheels (the guide track) and I assume in every Belsaw. Are you guys shimming your guide wheels to remove this play or not worrying about it? I have a chance to buy an American #l pretty reasonable and I was wondering if I could adapt the carriage to my Belsaw. I need to know the width of the American carriage and if it will simply drop onto my 39" Belsaw frame. I realize the larger American trucks will decrease the cutting height of my saw but will this give me problems?
Quote from: Trapper John on March 29, 2019, 03:51:47 PMAre you guys shimming your guide wheels to remove this play or not worrying about it?
The wheels on my sled were worn and sloppy. I took them to a machinist who made bushings and new pins for them. My tracks are not in perfect alignment, but I didn't consider how that could be heating my blade as Bandmiller is saying. Heating the blade does happen - now I'll look a little more careful at the tracks and gaps. Thanks for mentioning that!
I'm in the process of redesigning my sled. It's the 60" carriage with labour intensive dawgs, and it's wearing me out readjusting it with almost every pass. I'd like to add 30" sections to the back and front of the sled for better supporting long logs, and I'm trying to figure out some hydraulics for these setworks. I will probably resist the urge to add a log turner in the mix!
JimParamedic, what kind of power are you using to running your saws?
- Jason
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The biggest problem with bell saw dogs, [the late model ones] is that they drive the spike too far. When well adjusted the user must use both hands and hold the dog up some while pushing the lever down. Some of the ever ready dogs on old mills are just as bad but may hold on their weight alone. When I had a new bell saw the carriage rollers had side play but [the carriage] would travel the same path every time. The feed was never any good but I reworked it.
I always thought the dogs on a Utilzer mill could easily be copied and used on the Belsaws.
Hard to describe how they work, but each headblock had Gear Rack running vertical, bolted to the side and the dog assembly had a portion of the gear captive inside. Basically a scaled down DeLoach style headblock, except DeLoach was all cast iron.
Would take a little butt scratching to get the dog assembly fabbed and functional, but parts are easily obtainable. But the 12 pitch Gear Rack and gears would set you back $400+.
But to have functional dogs on a Belsaw... Priceless ;)
I am using an old 14hp engine I am also only cutting with 24 teeth Ill try and find a pic of my power unit.
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My dogs have a long and a short spike works good. but have been thinking about making some kind of slide hammer to set and remove the dogs
Babylon519 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=23820) was looking at your photos and seen your planer looks a lot like mine
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Also in this pic is the 14hp motor I am now using to run my belsaw
Babylon, I have had saw heating but it was caused by loss of rpm in the cut. By the way I have found shims (5/8" ID X 1" OD) on Amazon. Let us know if you try shims and if that solves your heating issue but I would check track alignment first. For setting and releasing my dogs I use a machinists hammer.
Lead out, teeth not sharped straight or swaged heavy to one side, feed to fast, bearing going bad, holders for teeth loose, also a combination of these. And another thing I've seen is trying to run a left hand blade on a right hand mill or vice versa. In all my trial and tribulations it is usually a combination of things that by then selves would not cause a problem.
Don't see how anybody could saw with 14hp even with only 24 tooth and 1" feed. Years ago I sawed with 32 teeth and 25 hp, just barely.
I did not think it would saw either but when I got the mill I wanted to get every thing adjusted and working while looking for a 4v Wisconsin. It was running good so I throwed a log on and off I went.
I'm running a small block Chevy and sometimes I don't feel like that's even enough. I have a 6bt Cummins sitting here, if I could only afford a PTO clutch for it!
Quote from: BUGGUTZ on March 31, 2019, 08:33:55 AM
I'm running a small block Chevy and sometimes I don't feel like that's even enough. I have a 6bt Cummins sitting here, if I could only afford a PTO clutch for it!
If you have the sae flywheel I may have the clutch.
Quote from: jimparamedic on March 31, 2019, 03:25:12 AM
I did not think it would saw either but when I got the mill I wanted to get every thing adjusted and working while looking for a 4v Wisconsin. It was running good so I throwed a log on and off I went.
Just took a 4cyl. Wisconsin off my slabwood saw.
Its pretty much how fast your sawing, a small engine will worry its way through. Years ago I was doing some sawmill bumming, the sawyer was greased lightning but only had a international gas four cylinder tractor engine. He was always waiting for the engine to catch up. A proper diesel, I bet his output would have jumped. Frank C.
Today I inspected and wire brushed an old 43" saw I had lying around. I am running a 48" saw now but I don't know if that is a good idea so I want to try this smaller saw. It is missing 13 shanks and the teeth really varied in length and were poorly filed. It appears the old girl had a hard life. I put a straight edge on it and it appeared pretty flat in both planes so I guess its worth a try after I replace the missing shanks and install new teeth. The shanks are stamped 3-8 so I assume its a 3 tooth and 8 gauge. When a saw is referred to as a 7/8 saw, does that mean the saw is 7 gauge at the center and 8 gauge at the rim? You guys might find it interesting to know that Belsaw apparently sold some of their sawmills with a 48" saw. The 48" saw that came with this mill has a 1 3/8" ID and B-9 shanks just like their standard 40" saws. As far as the carriage creeping backwards in a cut, I solved that problem (I think) but pushing the set lever all the way back against that rod that helps support the knees. No way it can move backwards. I have a problem with the dog board. I can't make anything less than about 2". The dogs are in the way. Is this normal for Belsaws?
Mine came with a 46" blade standard, a Timberking M-14... a Belsaw. If the pawl is engaged and the pull handle is back it is pretty much locked. The plate that is under the carriage below the headblocks should also be snug but if the cant is pushing you aren't tuned in yet, usually that means the lead is off or the track has a problem. I have to keep an eye on the inside loading end of mine, it gets pounded down and puts it in a twist.
I have a 1x2 leaning up on the loading opening post that I throw behind the cant on my last turn to space the cant out 1" which allows a 1" dog board. I also use it on top of boards when edging to avoid putting dogging marks into my boards. apm built a tube steel frame 1" thick that bolted across his blocks that did the same 1" spacing out. I'm running a tired old TO35 with 15 teeth on the blade. I do have apm's 6 cyl deutz I need to get the round tuits and hook up.
2 inch is the last board thickness unless you modify like I did. Unless made flat saws are 1 or2 gages thicker in the middle and flat on the board side. That is the reason for l/h and r/h saws. Belsaw once made a sawmill [larger mandrel] that took up to a 52" saw. Sawmills don't really come with a saw. You put on what you want or can find within reason.
Quote from: moodnacreek on April 01, 2019, 07:22:29 AM
2 inch is the last board thickness unless you modify like I did. Unless made flat saws are 1 or2 gages thicker in the middle and flat on the board side. That is the reason for l/h and r/h saws. Belsaw once made a sawmill [larger mandrel] that took up to a 52" saw. Sawmills don't really come with a saw. You put on what you want or can find within reason. Messed that up, ment flat on log side.
I run the saw with my 38 hp diesel IH B-275 tractor direct from the PTO. Mine has a 42" blade with 32 inserted teeth (2 are missing). TrapperJohn, I've been looking around for a 60 hp power plant, hoping that will keep the RPMs up when I'm in the wood as that is, for sure, one of the reasons the blade warms up. It seems like I'm usually cutting sawlogs that have been down for awhile, and they can be tough. A month ago, I cut some fresh-felled cherry, and the saw did a beautiful job of those logs. I think I want to cut more fresh, and less dead! :D BTW, that last board will be a minimum 2" thick too, thanks to the dogs being in the way.
JimParamedic, is your planer still working? Mine is a 24" monster that runs with flat belts back to a PTO pulley. For a 100-year-old machine, I'm amazed at the trueness of the spindle and the way it whirrs - it's still a precision machine. Wish I could find new 24" blades for it; the existing blades have been sharpened to the point I'm not comfortable taking them down any further. The feed roller is pretty worn too. - Jason
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Jason, nice looking planer. My blade heat is caused by lost rpm when my 8" flat belt starts slipping at the engine. I can saw but only with liberal application of belt dressing (corn syrup or honey). I am looking into going to a 10" flat belt with idler if its not too expensive getting one up here. By the way, an old time sawyer (82 years) in Tok Ak. said Belsaw sold heavier mandrels for the m-14 sawmill. He said they were having too many complaints with the 1.75" mandrel and offered a heavier one. Has anyone ever run across one of these heavier mandrels and what size were they?
The 60 hp should work OK. Two years ago I was running a 40 hp JD crawler on my mill with the 48" blade and it would cut, but slow.
Fresh cut logs? Your darn right. There has always been so much hot air about keeping saw logs laying around. The only reason to do it is that you just can't get the time to saw them. Even a cut log a few weeks old is harder on the end than it was. In spruce the cut off knots get very hard soon. [try cutting back spruce or hemlock knots with a chainsaw and see] And fresh cut logs make better lumber any way you look at it.
Babylon519 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=23820) yes it is still going strong its a 20 inch. Also have a 24 inch that I want to get set up soon. A machine shop can make new blades
Quote from: Trapper John on April 02, 2019, 06:26:04 PMonly with liberal application of belt dressing (corn syrup or honey)
Okay, I checked the date, and it's past April 1st!! Wouldn't sawdust and corn syrup get messy - like tar & feathers? :D
Quote from: moodnacreek on April 02, 2019, 07:26:24 PMIn spruce the cut off knots get very hard soon
Bummer! I have 30 spruce logs to cut. They've been in the pile for 10 months.
Quote from: jimparamedic on April 03, 2019, 03:07:51 PMA machine shop can make new blades
My machinist thought he could make new planer knives from an old grader blade, or the ice blade from a Zamboni. But he's reluctant due to liability - something to do with retro pieces swinging on a century-old machine at 12,000 rpm!
Yeah I am getting some buildup of gunk on my belt but I have no choice right now, without it I cannot saw at all because of the slippage at the engine pulley. I have a plan to install an idler and go to a 10" belt. You might want to put uhmw or some other plastic strips on your carriage so the log will advance easier. With a heavy log when I pull the set lever all the way, it will spring back a little bit meaning there is tension in the set mechanism and knees. As the carriage rolls down the track the vibration releases the tension and the log is pushed out into the saw and I get a thicker board at the end than at the beginning of the cut. At least I think that is what is happening. I think my arbor pulley (truck tire and rim) is giving me grief also. It is not running true and I think that is flexing my arbor or setting up a bad vibration. I had to push so hard on the Johnson stick two days ago that the 5/8" rod that holds my cable pulley bent and the cable came off. I have been trying for two years to get this mill tuned and running good. But I did locate a arbor pulley in Alaska but the problem is it is only 7" wide. I am going to buy it anyway and have a machine shop (they build tanks) preform 2" flat steal and weld it on both sides of the pulley to give me a 11" wide pulley. It will only be crowned in the middle but hopefully it will work and I can get rid of the truck tire. And I just ordered a Honda gx390 because I am building a bandsaw. Seems like a lot of bandmillers start off with Belsaws also.
There are also companies that make chipper knives and I talked with them at the Paul Bunin show and they said they can make them for me.
For flat belt dressing I make my own out of 1part bees wax 1 part linseed oil and 2 parts tar heat to mix up works good for me
Trying to up load videos hope i can get this figured out
I think everyone that has a Belsaw has bent the feed cable pulley shafts. It means something was in a bind and it was forced. Guilty here :D. I rebuilt mine with some heavy C channel across the ends of the track and mounted the pulley in that. But if you're having feed trouble the problem is in the mill setup somewhere, you're sawing in a bind.
Quote from: jimparamedic on April 06, 2019, 08:24:44 AM
Trying to up load videos hope i can get this figured out
You don't/can't upload videos directly to the Forestry Forum. Instead, you upload them to YouTube and then put a link to the YouTube video in your comment on the Forestry Forum.
Hope that helps.
Herb
Thanks for the info
https://youtu.be/zoH_jWmNXPc (https://youtu.be/zoH_jWmNXPc)
I think I've got this figured out.
Jimparamedic, your mill feeds to opposite way to mine. I wouldn't be able to go direct from my PTO like I do if mine was setup like that. - Jason
yes that's why I haven't hooked a tractor to it. I am looking for a bigger power unit but this works so far. Would like to find a v4 Wisconsin 20 to 25 hp
I have the stuff now going to add the sawdust chain on Monday I hope
Jim, I was brousing some old posts and saw you used a hydraulic garden tractor for your feed drive. I am thinking of going hydraulic and since I have a junk lawnmower that might work I was wondering how it works for you and how hard was it to build.
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I made the frame for this mill from stair stringers from a 100' fire look out tower from Illinois. Engine is 6 cylinder liquid cooled Deutz. It is elevated because I live on the Yukon R and this can place can flood during the ice breakup in May. The water would have been half way up the engine in 2013 when we had a 100yr flood. The mill sits right in front of my abode, I truly live in a mill house and I don't have far to travel to have fun.
You have a very nice set up. I don't have any good pictures right now but I will get some next week. What i used was a hydrostatic drive garden tractor I removed everything except the pump and the hydraulic motor i had to cut away some of the case where it joined the trans axle put a chain sprocket on the motor. Then hooked a 1hp electric motor to it to run it. It took a little time to figure out what to remove and what to leave but all in all it was not that hard to do. Hand tools, a right angle grinder, and a welder was all i used no machine work. I did this to replace out the old flat belt system that was warn out and also so i could run the carriage without running the saw. Where the mill is sitting now I did not have power so i switched to the mandrel to run my hydraulic drive. Also this is on my old american mill but would work on my belsaw to.
Weather was bad for my days off hoping Monday and Tuesday are better. Have a lot of plans to get done at the mill. Also found a 50" blade in Pa I need to go pick up.
A 50" saw is big for a bellsaw. What is really needed is the mandrel off a l/h sawmill. Was it trapper who called the feed handle a Johnson stick [bar]. Haven't herd that in a long time but lets not change the names of everything like the band mill newbees, that stick is called the crowd.
50" is a big saw But that is what I have been running and not had any problems yet. I do have a smaller 40" saw. But it is in tested as of yet. My other thought is that in the future I can have A 50" blade cut down as long as the plate is good. And as far as the names of different parts it all depends on where you are at in the world. So it can be confusing at times. Like soda pop and coke.
Everything has more than one name but with the internet people are misnaming things and making it stick and it bugs me. It started with calls for 'slabs'. I would say that I had a big pile, pick out any you want for free. I like traditional names. In lumber rule books FOHC means free of heart center, ok that's 2 names already [heart and center] so now the newbees , some of them older than me, want to change that to pith, why? Anyhow a 46" is the largest recommended for the 1 3/4" mandrel. Bellsaw once made a thicker mandrel for a 52" saw. My old bellsaw has a 48" on it. Most any old circle sawmill can accommodate endless improvements and the bellsaw needs many but this is so time consuming. Keep me posted, thanks, Doug
I have a 2" mandrel I am going to install someday or use to build another mill. And I do understand the name game. Here in this area a slab was the first cuts off the out side of a log and a board with live edge was called a fletch. An with this it make it hard to tell sometimes what some one wants. I had a guy ask for some slabs one time and I said I had a pile and he could just have all he wants. When he showed up he went straight to my lumber stacks and started taking it apart to get to the live edge stuff on the bottom. so from then on I make them tell me exactly what they want. And thank God he understood once I showed him the difference.
So you really understand. I suppose that I shouldn't expect everyone to be interested in history but a lot of the 'proper' terms in sawmlling go back before the band, circle and even the sash all the way to pit sawing on other shores. In a new high production grade mill [hardwood] they run band head rig and band line bar re saw. The head rig drops heavy slabs and sends the square cant to the re saw in about 8 seconds. The heavy slabs go to a horizontal re saw called a slabber. Does your 2" mandrel have the correct threads? By the way, live edge is called round edge in traditional lumber terms.
Yes it does have left hand tread. I don't know all the terms and I do like the history. I really like the water powered mill. Where I grew up there was an old dam on Cats Creek on the Wagner Farm and the Grandpa Wagner ( not my Grandpa but a term of respect ) would tell me stories about sitting on the log and eating his lunch while it was sawing. It was a sash mill.
He could get a little behind in his work doing that.
On an up and down sawmill you are supposed to milk at least one cow per board sawn.
Doug, why would you put an arbor from a l/h mill on a Belsaw which is R/h? Any diesel mechanics reading this post? My Deutz had been running good but now it quits after one or two cuts. It will start again but only after a minute of cranking. The fuel return line has a good flow back to the tank. My fuel tank is only 15 gallons and I was wondering if that has anything to do with it quitting.
Air filter clean? Don't just look at it but take it out and blow compressed air through it. Vent on fuel tank open?
If its fuel related you would normally have to bleed it before it would start again. Clogged fuel filter or something periodically covering the outlet on the tank could cause fuel starvation. Also a weakening or failed lift pump which should be on the side of the injector pump on that. You dont want too much return flow, should be a valve to keep a certain amount of pressure in the pump body. As mentioned clogged intake or exhaust tract will also kill it. Check whatever mechanism you have on the shutdown too, make sure its not vibrating or being knocked into the off position. Try cracking a line at an injector when it quits to see if theres fuel. When your cranking it and its not starting yet is there any smoke? If the injectors are firing there should be smoke.
Trapper, a bellsaw mill is an odd ball. Traditional sawmills have the mandrel , power, feedworks , etc. in front of the sawyer. Bellsaw put the mandrel in the track ways, the feed between them and the power on the otherside. This is why it is called a one man sawmill. Actually it is more of a bolter saw only with power feed, [not some early ones] Therefore the mandrels are threaded backwards from traditional.
I replaced some questionable lines before and after the fuel pump, raised the fuel tank above the pump, and set the idle higher and it is working OK again. I think it was pulling air into the fuel line but why I had to increase the idle I do not know. I am going to place my tank on an elevated stand, install a goldenrod filter and run a copper line to the engine. I will look for that valve that regulates the return flow, it is really gushing out right now. Thanks Glendaler.
Doug, did Belsaw use the same bearing housing with the 2" arbor they sold or did they provide a larger housing?
No problem glad its working again.
Trapper, I have never seen that heavy duty Bell saw mill. I had a brochure showing it that I sent to 'Cutting Edge' [FF member] because he had one. This mill hade a husk frame inside the way timbers. Apparently it did not sell. I doubt they could have used anything from the smaller shaft. Pillow blocks mounted on L [angle iron cut offs] might be the way to go.
Finally got to saw some oak.
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I've really got to get the saw dust chain put on. Maybe next time.
I'm really enjoying these two threads on Belsaws. Thanks for the great posts.
Oak is probably the easiest hard hardwood to saw. I remember thinking it was hard but sugar maple, hickory, locust and even spruce cause more trouble.
I do agree there are harder wood to cut then oak. For me Elm is the worst of all you just don't know what the boards are going to do coming off the saw. Locust will sure make a saw scream. And when cutting sassafras it will sure clean out you sinus.
Quote from: btulloh on May 01, 2019, 09:57:45 AM
I'm really enjoying these two threads on Belsaws. Thanks for the great posts.
x2, I also have enjoyed following the discussion on these circle mills. When I lurked before joining the circle mill discussions were few and far between.
Jimpara, How about dead locust? Now that's hard and dusty. What's needed with elm is short [8'] fat, central heart, fresh wet logs. With a 3rd bunk you can see when it is time to 180 the cant. Sometimes you can only cut one board per turn. With a sawmill with heavy dogs it is not as bad. Stickering and weighting the drying pile is the real trick not to mention the ppb. I love finished elm lumber but the ppb's have finished it for me. What is that board scale I see on your carriage?
Laup, I started with a bell saw in 1980 before the woodmiser came out. Read everything I could get my hands on. Had access to a forestry library in our town. Stopped at every sawmill that would let me and watched and asked questions. Tailed the mill for a few real old time sawmill men that came up through the no money years and if they couldn't fix it they knew who could. One oldtimer who could really hammer saws, and I tried several, straightened me out on saw and tooth styles. They are all gone now and I wish they could see me sawing on a good day. Circle mill saws look so simple but there is a lot to keep one sawing at it's best. Thanks for your interest.
Back in the early 80's I figured I needed a sawmill never seen or heard of band mills then. A local sawyer sold me two Simonds 44" B pattern saws and two headblocks for $250.00. Two friends had Bell saws but I told myself your not much of a machinist and welder if you can't build a better mill. I had some 20' steel roof trusses, took the crown out by cutting the lower girder and driving in a screwdriver and rewelding. The mill was on twin axles 20' with two 10' sections that folded up on each end. I made the arbor from a 2 3/8" heavy blower shaft. The collars were made from those weights they used to put on a cable to close fire doors. Setworks was made from ratchet and pawl from an old ground driven manure spreader. I copied the Bell saw feed works using parts and gears from a Hartman bread slicing machine (worked for Wonder bread then). The danged thing worked and cut beautiful lumber, after many years sold the mill to a fella that built sailboats. Frank C.
I have not messed with the aluminum scale board yet. It has a a self retrackting tape that is shot. Also has a scale that shows what size cant is still on the mill
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Btulloh, what do you think of that Bandmill 2 ? Back when I bought a bellsaw he BUILT a heavy duty one and stole MY idea of using manure spreader ratchet parts for the set works. He is tough competition. More comments to follow, thanks for reading.
Quote from: moodnacreek on May 02, 2019, 07:44:42 AM
Btulloh, what do you think of that Bandmill 2 ? Back when I bought a bellsaw he BUILT a heavy duty one and stole MY idea of using manure spreader ratchet parts for the set works. He is tough competition. More comments to follow, thanks for reading.
I am impressed. I have an old manure spreader, but it didn't inspire me to build a circle mill. I have an old ground driven grain drill - - I keep thinking there's something I could build out of that. Still thinking . . . .
I'm continually impressed and amazed by the ingenuity and creativity I see on the FF. It keeps me humble.
I don't have anything to add except a comment on how much I have enjoyed reading this thread , I made my living sawing with different sawmills some computerized others simple , one mill used a shim behind the cant that you dropped in on your last turn , its purpose was to make room for the dogs which stuck out about an 1 1/2" from backrest so it gave you the option to finnish with 1" board ,anybody else do this ?
On my belsaw has 3 pieces of angle iron bolted to the head blocks so I can saw down to a 1" board. I need to make some new ones because they are bent. Also I have a 4th standard for the dog so I can saw a 24" log if I want.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19672/20130506_124953.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1371033924)
Quote from: jimparamedic on May 02, 2019, 08:58:43 AM
On my belsaw has 3 pieces of angle iron bolted to the head blocks so I can saw down to a 1" board. I need to make some new ones because they are bent. Also I have a 4th standard for the dog so I can saw a 24" log if I want.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19672/20130506_124953.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1371033924)
Never saw this model bellsaw. Is it a l/h and did it have the shingle maker? They actually made a wooden carriage way back.
I have not seen another like it and the tag is gone I have not found any numbers. And no on the shingle attachment been looking for a good picture of one and aslo the lap siding attachment but have not seen any I can build off of. Its a left hand mill
Quote from: hacknchop on May 02, 2019, 08:10:36 AM
I don't have anything to add except a comment on how much I have enjoyed reading this thread , I made my living sawing with different sawmills some computerized others simple , one mill used a shim behind the cant that you dropped in on your last turn , its purpose was to make room for the dogs which stuck out about an 1 1/2" from backrest so it gave you the option to finnish with 1" board ,anybody else do this ?
Yes, I keep an ~8' piece of pine 4/4 x2" that stands against a post on my way between the front and back of the saw. I throw it in behind the cant on the last turn and also use it when edging, the dogs bite into it rather than my board and it allows the dogs to hold a single piece of 4/4 on the carriage for edging. APM had a tube steel frame bolted across his blocks for doing that same shimming.
Jim, in New York's Adirondack mountains there are a few mills with tilt contraptions on the carriage for sawing tapered brainstorm siding, a tradition there. I would think that to do shingles a taper jig with just one setting would work. This would have to operate while the cant [shingle bolt] was dogged. Some sort of remote control for this taper jig would be nice. I have a collection of sawmill literature and it includes some Bell saw pamphlets. This is how I know about many of the machines they offered at different times. I don't recall seeing your style with those racks but will dig out my collection and look. My wonderful wife can scan and E mail stuff [I can only cut wood and make noise] so if interested send me your info.
So, I finally got my new power plant done for my belsaw but I'm afraid I'm going to spin the blade too fast... I put a digital photo tach on the pto shaft of my tractor and it shows that its running 680 rpm under no load...... when i do the same with my power unit, the engine ,i bet isn't turning 1200rpm to turn the shaft 680..........im sure my blade is hammered for 540.....Im afraid my engine won't be in its torque curve..(its a jd 4 cyl diesel about 70 horse... how fast is safe to spin the blade so that i have power when I'm in a cut?
Would a manual transmission mounted inline between the saw arbor and the tractor get you in the right range?
Blaszer, The hammered rpm of a mill saw cam be determined by running it. Try running it slow and increase speed while you observe wobble [at low speed]. At the speed that the saw runs flat plus say 25 to 50 rpm more will be the speed to be kept up while sawing. 70 hp is plenty for any bellsaw that is set up right.
Quote from: Blaszer on May 04, 2019, 09:22:19 PMhow fast is safe to spin the blade so that i have power when I'm in a cut?
I would like to know this too. Is there a percentage faster or an rpm faster thats acceptable? And what effects would you notice from over-speeding? I wonder if it doesnt come up much because most people have a hard time even meeting the minimum rpm.
Quote from: Blaszer on May 04, 2019, 09:22:19 PM
So, I finally got my new power plant done for my belsaw but I'm afraid I'm going to spin the blade too fast... I put a digital photo tach on the pto shaft of my tractor and it shows that its running 680 rpm under no load...... when i do the same with my power unit, the engine ,i bet isn't turning 1200rpm to turn the shaft 680..........im sure my blade is hammered for 540.....Im afraid my engine won't be in its torque curve..(its a jd 4 cyl diesel about 70 horse... how fast is safe to spin the blade so that i have power when I'm in a cut?
Your governor should have adjustment for throttle setting and the rpm it engages at.
You don't want or need a lot of saw speed on the bell saw. For one thing you don't have the feed speed to use high rpm. There is a formula for all this that uses rim speed, hp,and feed or tooth bite. I don't think the formula works with the stock 1" feed of the bell saw, never tried it. In a perfect world 3 or 4 hundred rpm would work. 600 was the norm for the 40t coarse tooth saw. Then they went 540 pto and said nothing. Here are some things to consider: coarse sawdust is what is wanted and this takes fast feed/ slow saw / less teeth. It can be almost impossible to get a saw hammer man to make a saw stiff enough to run slow however small [40-46"] saws that have been kept stiff [not heated or hammerd for high speed] may run say 400 without wobble. Anything above 600 is too much. A shiney saw is spilling fine sawdust and running a tad warm. Finding the speed is like finding the lead, an experiment . When all this is figured out change pullys to put engine at torque curve if not enough power. Diesels have a wider torque curve than gas. I better stop.
I am just shooting from the hip. But I believe most diesel engines like 1800 to 2100 rpm. So now how are you driving your saw shaft, flat belt, or v belt. May need some step down pulleys. And like said before the math gets things close the rest is just tweaking it in
Usually plus or minus 50 rpm's from a saws hammered speed is considered ok, I try to keep it closer myself. Saw tension should be an exact science but alas its not, different smiths have different ideas. As Creeker says best to tweek your speed on the mill. Whats more important is to maintain speed in the cut. A big enough engine with a good governor is a joy to use, most easily done with a diesel. Frank C.
What I should have said is most easily done with a three phase electric motor but most don't or can't go that route. The power lineup from best to worse is electric motor, reciprocating steam, diesel, gas engine, chain saw, pit saw. Frank C.
Wile we're on the subject very few Belsaw mills I've seen have a flak screen. I use a section from a fire place screen suspended on chains from the overhead so its between me and the saw. It won't stop launched planks but most small stuff is captured. The prudent sawyer spends as little time in line with the saw as possible. Years ago I used to visit a circular mill owned by a building wreaker, He got top dollar for the old growth timbers from buildings in Boston cut into paneling and floors. The poor old sawyer lived with the hardware said he had never milled a fresh log. Every time a timber headed for the saw the whole crew would dive for cover. He showed me what he does with bits only every other one was sharp the bit between was filed blunt. He said if nails were hit he would loose a sharp tooth or two but the blunt one would punch out the nail. Frank C.
If you use the pitsaw, you won't have to go the gym that night. :D
I removed this transaxle from a mower today and I plan to use it for my feed. I spun the pulley at 1200rpm with a drill but I did not get any movement at the axle when I moved the shifter back and forth.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0424.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557461125)<It appeared to have plenty of oil but I did not find any dipstick or tank so I don't know for sure. Any ideas why this experiment failed other than the transaxle is kaput? I dumped the oil and it looked very dark. Could it have been dirty oil? What type of oil do these take and how much? br>
Trapper, I fear you got it because its kaput, it should work with dirty oil just for a test. You have it already, may be worth taking apart, sometimes its the shifter mechanism and can be repaired easily. Frank C.
Every other tooth blunt to punch out nails? Sounds like Frank got me again.
Trapper, One of these was brought into our shop as an after hours project. Had to split the case and had a broken shaft. Welded the shaft together and it's a bit of a challenge to weld together a broken shaft and keep it running true. Take it apart and make your decision then -repair it or look for another one. As it sits on the bench can you turn either of the wheel hubs? The hydrostatic lawn tractors that I have, the wheels won't turn If I want to push the mower. their is a rod you pull out to put the transaxle in neutral. This is not the shifter lever. If the rod is pulled out, the tractor won't move under power from the engine. My lawn tractor takes sae 30 wt oil in transaxle.
The one I used has a separate hyd. tank and a control valve to turn the flow on and off plus a valve to control speed and direction, And some has a shifter tp lock the transaxle in and out of gear so it would free wheel. I was able to do away with the transaxle on mine.
Creeker, your still on top I cant beat shelling town hall with a civil war cannon. Frank C.
Surplus center sometimes has l/h and r/h wheel drives from discontinued zero turn mowers. I don't know much about these but I think you power it and add a oil tank/ line and the rest is built in the unit. I bought one to make a variable feed drive for my edger but never followed through.
The stock Bell saw feed works is not bad if adjusted well with belts the right length. Carriages that creep should not be tolerated. Your feed works is also your brake, its not a bad idea to have something at both ends to stop a runaway carriage. If you have hydraulics its a simple matter to use a hyd. motor with a cable drum. They sell a needle valve for speed control that restricts the speed one way and gives you full speed for gigback the other way. Frank C.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on May 10, 2019, 07:53:49 PM
Creeker, your still on top I cant beat shelling town hall with a civil war cannon. Frank C.
I don't know, your not young, may have forgot some things.
Jim Para, I dug out an old bell saw pamphlet this morning, no date but has to be pre-war. Your sawmill is a model 10 basically as they offered it several different ways, out to 16' and the cast head block scale and the true gear racks are on them all. Also the shingle maker was big then as the farmer must have wanted to roof his building from his own trees or so they said to sell it. All these 10 models had the short, cast set handle at the rear of the carriage. [ that is where the hand feed crank would also be]. This is a very dangerous place to stand. They do not show or offer a forward set works or reach rod on these '10' models.
Im running a rockford clutch that is a reducer AND a reverser since the blade rotation is opposite that of an engine.....I had the output shaft machined and a pto shaft fitted to the end of it...This way, if my power unit ever goes down I can lift it out of the way and hook a tractor on and continue sawing
Blaszer, Have the same set up here. It is on an old Cat D6 [318] diesel and it is going on the bell saw so the tractor can be used elsewhere.
My first mill had a cat 318 a very good mill engine about 90 hp, if I recall. They only turn around 1200 rpm and will outlive most of us. Mine came from an old crane as a complete unit skid mounted with clutch and fuel tank. Unlike a Detroit it was a joy to listen to ( I like Detroits just not humming in my ear). Frank C.
Band miller also, your slippen man, according to the owners manual ye old Cat 318 can go 1800 rpm. This has to be one of the best diesels ever made. Also have a 13000 and a 4400.
My friend it was many years ago, I don't recall ever putting a tach on it. Seemed like it was always just loafing along. Frank C.
Frank, Your a good sport, putten up with me. Ran one for 15 years, sometimes on used motor oil. The most fun was starting it in the morning, after that all work.
Well I found some more horse power I hope its big enough. Its an old HD9 runs good just got to remove the old dozer from around it. the tracks and finals are out of it
Jim, what engine from the A/C ? In 1947 the bell saw has the slotted knees [or bases] and the set works has been changed for the last time except the friction screw. I think yours is a transition model . Those 10 models had the 1 1/2" mandrel. Back then the hand crank feed used a rope. At one time they would sell you a wood carriage that was hand pushed. They called this a sawmill that a Mr. Bell invented but it is really a bolter saw set up used to saw short rather small logs.
Thanks for the info. the engine is 4-71 DT
Quote from: jimparamedic on May 15, 2019, 06:46:11 PM
Thanks for the info. the engine is 4-71 DT
That will have way more power than you should have on the bell saw. Run nit at the slowest
rpm recommended, maybe 1400. They made those to run reverse of normal, I think the cam has to be changed, not sure, ask an old Detroit [GMC] mechanic. Whoa, you have a l/h don't you?
Yes they are a reversible engine. Got to turn cam and crank
Quote from: jimparamedic on May 15, 2019, 09:52:43 AM
Well I found some more horse power I hope its big enough. Its an old HD9 runs good just got to remove the old dozer from around it. the tracks and finals are out of it
There is another American #1 in my area that is powered by a Detroit 4-71. It has more than enough power
Went to Pa yesterday and picked up a new to me 50" blade could not turn it down at $75 it was a steal
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Looks to be in great shape but does need one shoulder repaired. My plan is to have it cut down. and only have 24 teeth.
Quote from: jimparamedic on May 20, 2019, 09:09:47 AM
My plan is to have it cut down. and only have 24 teeth.
Now that I will be very interested to see.
Piper's Saw in Ky will recut for $25 a tooth. My uncle had a 60" saw recut and it was like a new saw
I am about to order the cheapest motor spool valve from Surplus Center to operate my carriage. This valve has load checks and I was wondering what that means. Since this valve meets requirements for flow from my pump, I assume it will work for me. Am I missing something here? Also, is an adjustable flow control necessary or does it just make operation of the motor easier when I am sawing (as opposed to gig back)?
Quote from: jimparamedic on May 20, 2019, 06:43:07 PM
Piper's Saw in Ky will recut for $25 a tooth. My uncle had a 60" saw recut and it was like a new saw
I say call B.F. Payne and price a new one the size you want.
Quote from: Trapper John on May 22, 2019, 07:22:47 PM
I am about to order the cheapest motor spool valve from Surplus Center to operate my carriage. This valve has load checks and I was wondering what that means. Since this valve meets requirements for flow from my pump, I assume it will work for me. Am I missing something here? Also, is an adjustable flow control necessary or does it just make operation of the motor easier when I am sawing (as opposed to gig back)?
Thinking you need a 'motor' type spool valve to reduce the shock of stopping some.
Quote from: Trapper John on May 22, 2019, 07:22:47 PM
I am about to order the cheapest motor spool valve from Surplus Center to operate my carriage. This valve has load checks and I was wondering what that means. Since this valve meets requirements for flow from my pump, I assume it will work for me. Am I missing something here? Also, is an adjustable flow control necessary or does it just make operation of the motor easier when I am sawing (as opposed to gig back)?
Load checks are for preventing a load drifting down as in a front end loader cylinder application. The leakage of oil past the spool in the few seconds that you are returning the valve to neutral could allow the load to drift down. The load check is between the valve and pump and will have no effect in your application. (It will be on the inlet of valve) If you start to move the lever on valve and can control the speed of the carriage, you may find no additional flow control is needed. If it moves to fast and hard to adjust speed then you will have to explore options of flow control.
Got to play at the mill yesterday. sawed a little oak and white pine. Also took some photos of the feed work on the Belsaw It is a very different set up but it works great I can slow it down for hard wood and speed it up for soft wood and then this is hyd. feed on the American mill made from a Jacobs garden tractor
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The Hyd feed on my American
This was talked about before but if you rigged a hyd. motor to the feed drum and the gig back speed was nice, fast like it should be, a 'return too tank flow valve' would go in the feed line to the motor. This will need an extra line back to the tank. If a needle valve flow control [ cheaper] is used it may heat the oil too much. I wonder if it is a bad idea to chain the hyd. motor to the cable drum without a jack shaft in between as I have seen it done [more chains and sprockets] because hyd. motors can and do break if there is too much shock when starting and reversing .
I did add a jack shaft to slow it down and the controls you are talking about are all self contained in the trans axle. the knob on the left controls the power to the motor. The vise grip is because I lost the jesus. I had more pictures but they did not load
Here is an example of the needle valve flow control from Surplus Center. Adjustable flow in one direction and full flow in the opposite direction. Also comes in 3/8. I will have to get some more detailed pictures of my hydraulic feed on my American to add to this discussion.
1/2 NPT 15 GPM Prince WFC-800 In-Line Flow Control
item number: 9-7960-8
I have never been inside a td9 but was inside my old 1943 cat D4 and as I recall the shaft from transmission back to the cross shaft looked like it could be extended. Was thinking that rather than remove everything behind the engine, remove the top cover and lift out all steering gear and final drive cross shaft and come through the back case and tie into the transmission output shaft, that way you would have the trans gears.
My HD9 has a short drive shaft between the engine clutch and the trans. I have a shaft with a 8" flat and a 3 grove v belt pulley with 2 pillow blocks and a yoke for a drive shaft
I had a machinist make two 32" circles of 2 X 1/4" and I welded them on an arbor pulley to widen the pulley to 11".
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I was happy with the way it turned out, it has some runout but way less than the truck wheel I had been using. I am running a 40" saw freshly hammered by Puget Sound Saw near Seattle. But I am still having problems. When in the cut the belt starts slipping and I have had the saw come to a stop with the belt happily riding around the pulley. I never saw that with the tire pulley. I do not understand why my saw should have such a difficult time in the cut. The problem is drop in rpm at the saw and I cant figure out if the belt slippage is the cause or the result of the rpm drop. When I manage to keep the rpm up I can saw acceptable lumber but it is such a challenge. I have a good amount of lead at 1/8" and I sharpen for each 14' spruce log I am sawing. The engine is governing perfectly for hammered speed of the saw (650). Some of the teeth are longer than the others so maybe I should space them more evenly around the saw. I may try more lead in the saw and I will order some 5/16" teeth. Circle milling is getting more like voodoo for me. br>
Your belt slippage I can not understand. One of the old timers that taught me ran a no.1 American, 52" saw, 400 cu. in. reo gold comet with a 6" belt. He did convert to Vee belt but did get by for years with the flat belt. The only thing I can think of is the condition of your belt surface.
The belt has been slickened and will get worse. Find a source for 'belt dressing' and put some on. It should come in a 2" stick. Don't get that new crap spray they sell. Get the stick stuff and run some on as the belt passes. It has rosin in it and life will get better quick.
I dripped on honey and things improved greatly but it doesn't seem to last very long. Maybe it becomes "carmalised" or something. I know an old timer in Tok, Ak. who also sawed successfully with a 6" belt. It seems impossible to me. Well, I will look for some of the stick belt dressing and try it. When I was running the tire pulley the slippage was at the engine, now its at the arbor. Makes me wonder about my plan to install an idler at the engine if my problem now is at the arbor. Oh well, guess it cant hurt. I am also thinking of ordering a 10" belt, flat belts are not that expensive. Power band belts are a different matter, very expensive. My mill is just a hobby/project mill but I do want it to be functional.
Trapper, there is no way you need a 10" flat belt. The mandrel is not big enough to even tighten it. Something simple is wrong here. It is a shame you can't turn your power around and go vee belt and have it over with. Keep us posted.
Looks like a good job on the pulley mod. I think you need all the teeth the same length. The longer ones are carrying the load and your feed will have to be slowed accordingly. My flat belt was 6 inch wide turning a 48 inch saw with 44 teeth. I used a liquid belt dressing that could be squirted on. I see now it has gotten old and thickened up like honey. I still use it on my lathe that has a flat belt but I dribble it on with a stick. It does the job though.
I use boiled linseed oil, Tar, Bees wax all cooked together works good and if I saw all day I put it on the bely 3 or 4 times. My grandfather used to use an old tire set it on fire and let the melted rubber drip on the belt still had to do it several times a day. dust makes it slip and morning dew even under cover. once or twice a week I would clean the belt with a little gas and a wire brush. Ive also seen old beltind riveted to the pulley to to help stop slippage.
I've seen a lot of tractors where the pulleys get dressed instead of the belt. Don't know what they used- maybe the burning inner tube or rosin.
In the quarries they lag the pulleys . They weld on slotted strips [of steel] in which strips of rubber slide in. On the belted offbear over my husk I have glued and pop riveted conveyer belting or it will slip bad. Used gorilla glue. The trick is to strap it tight all around and make a nice joint. I wonder how the spray on bed liner would work?
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There is a lot of belt deterioration occurring and I think it is caused by the sticky honey. Anyone else seen this? I was thinking of painting the pulleys with wing walk paint, the gritty paint people use on boats etc. I don't mind applying belt dressing occasionally but not if it will destroy a perfectly good belt. I was having my cants wider at the far end and the guide pin streak is on the board side of the saw so I gave it more lead today. Did not measure after the change but I estimate its 5/32". If I keep the outside guide pin tight against the saw with no gap, use the honey, and sharpen twice for each log I can make acceptable lumber and cants. How much lead are other Belsaw sawyers using? Moodnacreek, v belts will not work for distances greater than a few feet or I would use them.
Could you find an inner tube that would fit tightly over if you cut it open so the whole surface is rubberized? Similar to what moodnacreek is saying about wrapping an old belt around the pulley.
I doubt an inner tube would last very long. I read about an outfit in Oregon that applies a special coating to any type of pulley to increase friction to reduce heat buildup on large farm equipment like combines. I asked what it would cost to do a 12 X 10 " pulley and they said $1000. Can buy a lot of belt dressing for that. I was sawing today and I heard metal on metal as my carriage was passing the saw. I found two of the wheel pins were nicking the saw. You got to watch the play in the pins, just can't assume anything. There is also a lot of play in Belsaw wheels, cant be good.
Theirs an old millwrights trick of crowning the pulleys with friction tape, it aids friction and alignment. I'm not sure if you can still buy friction tape I haven't seen it in quite a wile. Flat belts tight enough to prevent slippage will tend to spring and stress the Belsaw arbor, they are best driven with a shaft like a tractor PTO to relieve side strain. Frank C.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on May 27, 2019, 07:24:06 AM
Theirs an old millwrights trick of crowning the pulleys with friction tape, it aids friction and alignment. I'm not sure if you can still buy friction tape I haven't seen it in quite a wile. Flat belts tight enough to prevent slippage will tend to spring and stress the Belsaw arbor, they are best driven with a shaft like a tractor PTO to relieve side strain. Frank C.
3m scotch brand makes a tape used for high voltage connections that is self vulcanizing. When stretched as it is wrapped on The layers all become one solid piece conforming to whatever it is wrapped around. Can get it in 2" width.
Quote from: Trapper John on May 26, 2019, 08:01:51 PM
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There is a lot of belt deterioration occurring and I think it is caused by the sticky honey. Anyone else seen this? I was thinking of painting the pulleys with wing walk paint, the gritty paint people use on boats etc. I don't mind applying belt dressing occasionally but not if it will destroy a perfectly good belt. I was having my cants wider at the far end and the guide pin streak is on the board side of the saw so I gave it more lead today. Did not measure after the change but I estimate its 5/32". If I keep the outside guide pin tight against the saw with no gap, use the honey, and sharpen twice for each log I can make acceptable lumber and cants. How much lead are other Belsaw sawyers using? Moodnacreek, v belts will not work for distances greater than a few feet or I would use them.
I can't but help to think you have some alignment issues. My American has 1/16" lead. Has daylight between guides and saw. My logs only touch the ground when the tree drops so they are very clean. I only saw a few thousand feet a year And sharpening is few and far between mostly to square the cutting edge up as the log side corner wears away.
I can see going to a heavier arbor might really help me. The fact that I have both the drive belt and the feed belt both pulling on the same side of the arbor probably is not good. A new arbor sounds like a simple change, buy new flange bearings and make bigger holes in my mill. Also plan to change over to different guide track. The oval 6' sections I am using are hard to adjust and not uniform at the ends. I have 20' pieces of 1 X 1/4" angle which I would stagger the seams to make a more uniform guide track. Just have to find or make some of the appropriate wheels. My logs are really silty as I float them down the river and they got dragged also. I spray the cut line on each pass but there is still a lot of silt. Guess I should be using chrome teeth at least.
We all have to deal with what we have so I understand your need to sharpen more often. FWIW my American mandrel is 2 3/16" dia.
If you try to saw with that much lead and not taking the time to measure, in my opinion, you will not be able to run a mill. The saw must be flat on the log side and the teeth sharpened straight across with the correct hook angle and the tooth corners exactly the same on both sides, like new teeth. The collars must fit and the saw bearing run cool or cold. Nothing touches the saw plate. Only the teeth contact the wood. The lead should be 1/16". The saw must run free and cool and almost self feed. The guides are there to give the saw something to lean on occasionally but not constant. Doing what you say you are doing is why the belt slippage. Too much lead eats more power and puts strain on the saw needlessly.
I kept adding lead because my cants are thicker at the far end but I guess that could be caused by other problems. I lost my stone dresser and I noticed I am not getting sparks when I sharpen so maybe my teeth are not getting sharpened like they should. I will order new teeth and go to 1/16" lead. I notice my saw enters the cut nice and straight but it seems to start wobbling no matter how slow I feed and I do not hear the saw slowing down.
Don't know if you saw this video that was posted before but very informative on all the measurements and tolerances for a circle mill.
Trouble Shooting a Small Circle Mill in Sawmills and Milling (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=106257.msg1655770#msg1655770)
very interesting video, thanks for posting.
Moodnacreek you were right about my excessive lead. I found six teeth that had bad corners on the log side so I replaced them. I found my dressing stick which made a big difference on my grinding wheel. I plan on dressing the wheel each time I sharpen now. I next set the lead to 1/32" and the saw is doing much better. Has anyone used an idler on the drive belt? I was wondering if an idler would stop the flapping in the belt and give smoother power to the arbor.
There are engineering formulas for running belts of all kinds. I don't understand these but they where figured out so a power transmission could be ordered and installed with the best results. Hay seeds like Me just copy something that works. Problem is you get some parts free or cheap or you have nothing to copy. There is a correct speed in feet per minute for any belt and the pulley size is fore not only your ratio to get the speed of the driven shaft but also the belt speed. Then you have the length of the belt and now to make matters worse it is twisted to change rotation. The saw has to run at the hammered speed + a little and stay there. That's to bad because I bet there is a speed that will calm that belt flap. I have never seen a idler work on a crossed belt and in my mind it would take more pressure to hold it down because of the twist. Also I think you can get C belts at least 300 inches long. I bet you would get by with 2. What a shame as I have every thing here to convert you mill because the new owner of my old bell saw runs tractor pto.
I have been working on a 20" log for about 5 hours now and its still a cant. I just don't understand what I have done wrong. Log keeps getting jammed in the saw, have used the come a long 4 or 5 times to pull the log out of the saw. It will just not keep the hammered speed in the cut. I am going very slow but no matter how slow I go the saw starts to flutter and then the belt starts to slip on the arbor pulley and I shut things down and spray the saw. The saw gets hot in the inner area. Last measurement of the lead was a scant 1/16". Teeth are as square and sharp as I can get them. I would pay transportation to Alaska for anyone who could get this thing to work but I think the mill is jinxed and unfixable. Small logs seem to be OK. Guess I will try the 48" D-7. Heaviest saw I have and it has 5/16" teeth. Will report in a few hours.
I am happy to report that the 48" D-7 saw was able to make the cut. It chatters in the guides but in a 14" cant it sawed without wobble and I could keep my speed up. I sawed one board today but I am just tickled I was able to do that one board. ( But I sure am tired of moving saw guides and splitters around.) I guess the greater mass of this saw plus the 5/16" teeth made the difference. Thanks for all the support and advice.
It is amazing the little things that can really screw with a mill. Sawing soft woods the fuss that is on the face of the log will cause the saw to bog down and can heat the blade up too. Using a wider tooth is how to stop this from happening. I know when I started it was so frustrating when I thought every thing was set perfect and the mill would not cut right or even cut at all. When things are not working right I would have to start at the beginning and check each step of the set up. Hang in there is a learning curve to get through and you are well on your way. Also by chance are you running the right face of the flat belt on the pulley. There is an inside and an outside on most flat belts.
Oh boy, this is where I was in 1980 learning on a Bell saw. Probably the most important thing is the corners of the teeth. If you can really file a chisel chain saw then you can file a sawmill blade. Also heating the saw means warming a portion or 1 side more than the rest of the plate BY AS LITTLE AS 5 DEGREES ! The sun will do more than that. This is why the saw bearing must run so cool. Those infrared thermometers are so handy. An experienced sawyer will know he [the log] has touched the saw back off and let it cool by itself rather than keep sawing and actually heat the blade. That little warm spot causes the blade to start a new path and bend the plate to try to follow. You cannot allow this to happen as it will spoil the tension in the saw among other things. A big circle saw turning on a shaft looks so simple, only 1 moving part, but to cut logs with it all day with no trouble takes knowledge and care.
Well put. I am taking a closer look at my sharpening also but I am not impressed with my jockey. The front "tooth ride bar" had a bolt hole in it that was just in line with the tooth and so the tooth would drop in it. I replaced it with a strip of plastic. And I have noticed the rear "tooth ride bar" is all chewed up from dragging sharpened teeth across it. Is it a good idea to let a sharpened tooth ride on steel? Good idea about the infrared thermometer, will have to get one. I am running the right belt side. To take the twist out of my belt I could turn my engine around and use v belts and a jackshaft and then the flatbelt to the arbor but that would be complicating things and add friction. Simpler would be a clockwise running engine. Is a Cat 318 reversible?
Ye old Cat 318, what a sweet engine, runs on most any fuel, always starts somehow and lasts a long time. They did supply marine models in l/h and r/h so I suppose the answer is yes technically.
When I'm having trouble figuring out what is going wrong, before adjusting things I change out to new teeth and saw a little. That takes my sharpening or tooth condition out of the list of variables.
One other though is if the track is straight and level, set your level across the carriage at both ends, it should read the same. Then push the carriage down the track watching the level.
About the jockey; I have 3 of them among other makes. On 1 I bought the easy slide kit and it works but not that smooth and I would say it is expensive for what little it helps and it will not work at all on a coarse tooth saw. Then I have welded and ground smooth the worn out slides and that's ok. Here is another choice; Jones makes a model called the long horn that has stainless steel slides that they say fits the Jockey. On those Jockey grinders the tail end is where you adjust it to grind square [ if it ever will] Jockey grinders are a little crude but they are fast. If you keep an eye on your grinding [ like hand filing] and use a fine or diamond stone and don,t wait for the teeth to get dull, your teeth will be sharper than new.
On my jockey you adjust to square by loosening the clamp that holds the motor. Definitely not German or Dutch design and definitely not worth the $600 plus they get for them. I think most of my problems arise from not getting the torque to the saw. At best an 8" belt will only transmit 50hp and so we are limited to 10" logs (if you figure 5 hp for each inch of wood). I have read on the forum that others have had problems with an 8" belt as well. Maybe a 10" belt will make sawing a joy instead of every log a struggle.
So have you sawn more with the D-7 blade and if so how did it do. If you are using plane steel teeth then just use a good file to sharpen I tried a jockey once and didn't like it. Wish I had the time to come and help. But my wife knows I would probably not come home.
Quote from: jimparamedic on May 30, 2019, 01:06:35 AM
But my wife knows I would probably not come home.
:D My wife has started calling my sawmill my other wife, very addictive hobby. I think I would have a hard time leaving too, might pull a Dick Proenneke and make it a 30 year "visit".
I tell my wife at least you know where to find me. And even though my sawmill can be a pain some times at least it don't talk back. And I think it is happy to see me
Being a po-boy I've never owned a jockey. A file is about as simple a tool as you will find but not an easy one to master. If you can do a good job on a saw chain you should be able to master saw bits. That said I use a Dexter saw guide most of the time with a diamond grit file, even on soft bits. I file a little and often and the guide keeps me honest. For years I just used a 10" mill file, but you must file straight, no rocking or angles on the bits. The saw guide has two sets of rollers that hold the file 90 degrees to the bit at the proper hook. I'm not sure now where you can buy the saw guide, Bruce Dexter has been retired for many years now, someone must have picked up the torch. Frank C.
That Dexter file guide is an excellent tool. I bought 2 [one for a friend] from Bruce Dexter and one at an auction. When I went to chrome teeth I bought the diamond file that Bandmiller mentions. Because of hand pain I rigged up a way to mount the diamond file in a hack saw frame and this works good. Because the dia. file is not a file, you 'file' in both directions. I think the Saw Shop in N.H. sells this Dexter file guide and B.F. Payne has replacement dia. files for it.
BH Payne sells them
Jim, the D-7 is sawing but having the same issues as B-9s, the F-8, and the 3-8. I can hear the saw slow down and the trouble starts. I really have to feather the stick and keep the speed up. I have noticed with the D-7 that sometimes it throws sawdust at me? This morning I washed the belt and pulleys with hot water and tide. I will take my belt sander and lightly scuff the pulleys at right angles to the belt travel. Will check my lead again, I assume it will increase going from a smaller saw to a larger saw. I will try filing also. Thanks for all the info on that file guide and diamond files. Is there anything to why some people saw spruce from but to top?
Throwing saw dust at you is not unusual. All so sawing at full speed feed rate in wide cuts will bog down the saw. Once you are under 6-8 " you will see a big difference
Sawing only 6-8" is not an option. I tried the freshly scrubbed belt and pulleys but I could not saw so I tried some spray dressing and it improved a lot confirming my suspicion about the belt. But now I have another problem. The feed drive pulley on the arbor will not stay in place. I tightened the set screw as much as I dared along with lock tight but it still loosens and the pulley slides in. How does one solve this problem?
If a pulley is loose on a shaft it will just keep getting worse. Does it have a key? A straight key can sometimes be made up oversize and pounded in like a gibb key. Or the shaft could be peened all around and the pulley put on with 609 lock tite and longer set screws drilled in the shaft a little. Best of all would be a taper lock style pulley. Is your saw picking up sawdust from the pit? Is the saw 'sawing' at the back ? Sawing spruce requires sharp teeth more so than other wood. There are so many things that could be wrong and when it is more than one problem it will be very confusing. The belt slipping does have to stop because loosing speed in the cut heats the saw and then nothing is any good. Are the logs sawing fuzzy or clean cut because the fuzz will warm the saw. Logs that have started to dry [what little they will] are harder to saw. And are you using stand-all bits ? or regular or regular with frost shanks?
Trapper I hate to tell you this mate but your going to have to get a better belt lashup your not getting enough power to the arbor. Could you run a jackshaft under the mill and run vee belts up to the arbor. If you must use flat belts maybe a car or truck tire on the arbor would give you more diameter and traction. Frank C.
I guess I wasn't getting the set screw tight enough. I used a wrench this time and it seems to be holding. Just checked the lead again and it is staying at 1/16". The cuts look OK, not real fuzzy. I went back to the honey belt dressing and that helps the most at keeping the speed up but I am surprised how much it takes. I am sharpening at least once per log, sometimes twice and I am able to saw by carefully feathering the stick. And I do not let a single ray of sunlight fall on the saw. I only sometimes get sawdust from the back of the saw, its not from the pit. I am using regular bits with regular shanks. I am just happy I am sawing again, at least for now. I will order some B-9 bits in 5/16" and try them in the other saws. Do warm days affect sawing? Bandmiller, that is my last option is to move the engine to the normal position on the sawyers side and run a jackshaft under the mill and use v belts. But then I will continually have to walk around the engine or over the jackshaft. I think I will go ahead and order a 10" belt, they are relatively cheap and maybe it will give me the extra grip I need. Sure a lot easier then moving the engine and building a jackshaft. I had been using a truck tire and it gripped the belt good but then I was getting slippage at the engine. The guys in the early days often used 12" belts, so they must have known about this issue. With the razor sharp bits and plenty of honey at least I can saw so I guess there is hope.
Trapper, at some point try stand-all bits, I don't like them but they can make a big difference.
Quote from: Trapper John on May 30, 2019, 06:15:43 PM
Sawing only 6-8" is not an option. I tried the freshly scrubbed belt and pulleys but I could not saw so I tried some spray dressing and it improved a lot confirming my suspicion about the belt. But now I have another problem. The feed drive pulley on the arbor will not stay in place. I tightened the set screw as much as I dared along with lock tight but it still loosens and the pulley slides in. How does one solve this problem?
You could make a collar with set screw and install on the shaft tight against the pulley hub. A loose hub will eventually damage the keyway, so best to address it as you did . If the hub has adequate depth, use two set screws, hex key style one over the other, Works the same as double nutting. Just remember that if you ever disassemble that there are two set screws in there.
Laup, forgot to mention that trick, on the old bell saw I had shaft collars welded to the feed pulleys. Also I have beat myself silly and with gear pullers and heat only to find another set screw in there.
Quote from: moodnacreek on May 31, 2019, 12:36:38 PM
Laup, forgot to mention that trick, on the old bell saw I had shaft collars welded to the feed pulleys. Also I have beat myself silly and with gear pullers and heat only to find another set screw in there.
Not to mention galling the shaft in the process. :'(
Moodnacreek, you mentioned standall bits. I have heard they are good for frozen logs but what would they do for summer sawing?
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This mill can cut but just takes a lot of patience. Plan is to order a 10" belt and give it the ol college try.
T rapper, you won't know until you try. [the stand-all bits] Many guys use them all the time especially in 2 1/2 style saws. When I ran a bell saw I had to use them and when I set up the Lane with an old style 3 and 60 hp gas and had the saw hammered twice it would not saw a straight line in any thing. When I put stand-alls in that saw it took right off but now I have better saws and more power so I use super shanks and regular chrome bits. Looking at the photo you put up makes me want to say your drive pulley is too small in diameter to have enough wrap and traction.
I think circle milling is mostly voodoo. Yesterday I was sawing OK but today I am doing everything the same but its been a struggle and I would estimate I am loosing a quarter of the useable wood in a log to planer shavings. Thanks for the tip on standalls, I will give them a try. They are advertised as requiring less horsepower. Do you notice any difference with the super shanks? My engine pulley is 12" diameter but I will go to a larger diameter (probably 14") to stay at maximum torque while sawing. With this sawmill, I could never keep a girl friend, let alone a wife. She would be out the door in no time.
What is your feed rate? How many teeth are on your blade? You said 40" blade right?
Trapper, theirs a cheap easy way for you to increase your flat belt traction. What you need is a bearing that will mount on the arbor preferably outside the pulley and a pipe that will extend to the engine clutch. A heavy section of threaded rod lets you stretch the flat belt tight wile taking the load off the arbor. I use this system even with my vee belts it keeps the belts from loosening and relieving a lot of the strain on the arbor. Frank C.
Stand-all bits take more power but if you are having trouble with sawdust in the gullets they may help and you will think you have gained power. Stand-all's are to be used with regular shanks. This brings up the issue of running carbide bits, they only come in stand-all style. So if you go to super or 'frost' shanks you must use regular, long, or tungsweld bits. Regular and long also come in chrome [as do stand-all] Chrome does work a little better in spruce. Long bits are iffy because there is only one maker and there quality control is lacking and the longer tooth exaggerates the poor manufacturing. In my mind the twisted belt scrubbing eats power and the wider the belt the more so. I can visualize a steam tractor running a mill, parked about 40 foot away and the long twisted flat belt sagging. It seems to me that when you tighten that belt the scrubbing friction gets worse. I hope some day you can go Vee belt. Keep sawing and making adjustments and be careful.
I will order 3 different bits in B-9 style. I will try 5/16" regular, 9/32" standall, and 5/16" standall. I did not realize that bits could have such an effect on sawing. I was wondering what rpm I should design for when ordering pulleys. I have 5 saws and all are old and I know the hammered speed for only one saw (650 rpm). I was thinking of designing for 600 rpm at the arbor as it seems a good compromise between 540 and 650. As far as the engine pulley I am designing for 1400 rpm as this is maximum torque for my engine. Plan is to stay with current setup with the twisted flat belt and delegate this mill to smaller logs and occasional use. I don't want to spend a bunch of money or work on this mill because its a Belsaw and there is nothing you can do for the setworks, carriage, arbor etc. I have a Corinth in pieces that will be a good starting place for a heavy duty mill and it is has V-belt arbor pulley!
Was thinking of powering my feed with a small gas engine which would leave more power for the saw. I have a Yamaha generator engine (1.5 or 2 kw) and was wondering if this would work. My feed rates are slow.
I discovered why I was having so much trouble yesterday, my D-7 saw is now officially warped, too many 22" logs I am thinking. It wasn't in that good of shape to begin with it chattered bad in the guides. I switched over to the original saw that came with the Belsaw, a 48" B-9 and it is doing OK at least for now. I am bowing down to the saw each time and giving it homage. I have one goal with this mill and that is to mill enough lumber to finish the house and and then it will go into semi retirement.
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Luap, I think you are right. I have alignment issues, also.
I can not stress belt dressing enough it is really important with flat belts. If you cant find some make it. Looks like you have lots of pine then down the sap and use it. I would be afraid using honey that the critters would eat them. Also flat belts can be over tight surface area is what gives them grip. that is why belt dressing is so important
Quote from: Trapper John on June 02, 2019, 02:12:35 PM
Was thinking of powering my feed with a small gas engine which would leave more power for the saw. I have a Yamaha generator engine (1.5 or 2 kw) and was wondering if this would work. My feed rates are slow.
Be aware motors on generators typically have a tapered shaft if you are thinking of separating the generator from the motor.
Jim, I want to try your belt dressing (1 bees was, 1 linseed oil and 2 tar). What kind of tar do you use, like the black plastic goop for patching roofs? How do you know if a flat belt is over tight? I am really puzzled why my cants and dog board are consistently thicker at the far end, from a quarter to a half inch thicker. I have measured over from the headblocks to the edge of the carriage on all three and they are the same so how can this happen? I am also really puzzled why I can saw OK one day and have a hard time the next and the only difference is its a little warmer.
Trapper John, some thoughts,
blade lead issue,
bad collar(s)
belt slipping as you have mentioned,
I looked back through the thread and did not see this reference however, I may have missed it.
https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf
It needs to be real tar not synthetic. Also needs to be simmered for about an hour to bind it together be careful it is flammable And it only takes a little dressing at a time like maybe 1/4 cup at a time and applied as need. And if you pull a flat belt to tight the belt will cup so lees surface contact and it can rip out the lacing.
Jim, where can you buy real tar, I don't think I have ever seen it. Well there has been a change of plans. I have lost a cylinder on the deutz, I think its an injection pump. It will not idle down, the saw does not sound the same, and it has a hard time with even small logs. I am renting a Lt 35 to finish my logs so I can dry the wood and get a roof on this place. Just too many problems with the Belsaw and I will deal with them later. Even my Belsaw planer has an issue. It vibrates really bad so I replaced the cutterhead bearings but no luck, but I found that the shaft where the left bearing sits is gouged out. I filled in the gouge with titanium putty and had my buddy machine it. However, he said the shaft was not straight! Anyway, I put it back together but the vibration is still the same so at least I know what the problem is. How this shaft got bent is beyond me. How would you fix a bent cutterhead shaft, a crankshaft straightner? Well, I will deal with that later, the planer operates so that is all I care about. I cant believe all the problems I am having but I look on the bright side. I am still healthy, milling has not killed or injured me (yet) and there is a bandmill here in town that I can rent.
A roofing supplier it usually comes in a hard block that needs to be heated to use. My local hard ware still has it in the caulking tube. Sorry to hear about the planer you may be able to get a new head for it from some place like Grizzly
Hit some old wire lost a few teeth.
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But still got some nice walnut
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As for straightening bent shafts: There are different methods but you almost need a lathe and a dial indicator. I have done it in the lathe fabricating an H frame using a bottle jack to push with. You may need a purpose built jig with a cradle that fits your shaft. I have a shop built crankshaft straightener for small engines but would need some adapting. I have two belsaw planers, old and new and if you get the gibs mixed up there will be serious out of balance vibration.
Well I sawed two logs on the woodmizer and I think I have died and gone to heaven. Its hydraulic with simple set and so easy to operate. I learned from Jim at the Belsaw Store that he has seen one other bent shaft. He said an outfit called Byrd sold (a few years ago) a spiral cutterhead for the Belsaw planer for like $1200. I had a hard time leveling my bed, I could not get the bed the same distance below the cross pieces at four corners. The only thing I could think of was the bed was warped. I just had to compromise and split the differences. Jim, does your dressing formula eat the belt? I noticed the honey must soften the rubber as in that photo I posted. Winter is coming in less than 3 weeks. That might not mean too much for most Americans but its something to think about up here, and probably Nova Scotia as well.
I here they can be pretty nice. I just need to try one someday. would really like one to saw cants from the belsaw for like siding and board and batten.
Oh that's just the dark side talking :D
A friend with a Norwood recently resawed some thick treads I had sawed up years ago just on speculation. I had made them 4" thick so they could pass stair code without risers. But he needed them thinner and had the right tool to resize them. Can't have too many saws available.
I got into a big red oak today, really a little too big, the blade wouldn't clear through the log so I kept hanging up on the splitter and having to wedge and chainsaw several times. Still it was sweet, 2x14 -2x17, my max blade height above carriage, all but a few were dead clear. The butt log should be nicer but I'll take it over to the swing mill.
I will never get read of my circular saws 3 at this time and a small gerber chainsaw mill. But some day I'd like a band mill too or maybe 3. Looking for a small edger right now found a couple just got to get time to go look at them. Sawdust is addictive. Yes I am an addict.
Right on, cant have too many saws available. I think I might become a middle of the roader, a circle mill, a bandsaw mill and at least a half dozen chainsaw mills. I will keep making refinements to the Belsaw and use it when needed here in town. But I can see that a band or swing mill out in the woods is the way to go for production. Getting logs into the river, building raft, and getting the logs out of the river is too much work. I am thinking it would be easier to haul lumber by boat and leave all the sawdust and slabs in the woods. Sure is fun to read about everyone's mills and how they are using them.
You could also raft the finished lumber strap an Evinrude to the back and head to the main land. I try and go by the rule work smarter not harder but that don't always work out for me.
Picked up some Belsaw parts what a deal I got 2 40" blades a mandrel and more
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Bought one over a year ago and still have not brought it all home. I might use the 40" saw for a top saw on the Lane sawmill I run.
I've got enough parts to put together 2 mill. thinking of putting together a small mill to take to shows
Hope I can saw so tomorrow. Been raining a lot
Looking for a good weekend thind have been crazy around here
Quote from: jimparamedic on June 16, 2019, 09:30:53 AM
Picked up some Belsaw parts what a deal I got 2 40" blades a mandrel and more
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