Anyone want to talk about Belsaw Mills

[luap]

We all have to deal with what we have so I understand your need to sharpen more often. FWIW my American mandrel is 2 3/16" dia.

[moodnacreek]

If you try to saw with that much lead and not taking the time to measure, in my opinion, you will not be able to run a mill. The saw must be flat on the log side and the teeth sharpened straight across with the correct hook angle and the tooth corners exactly the same on both sides, like new teeth. The collars must fit and the saw bearing run cool or cold. Nothing touches the saw plate. Only the teeth contact the wood. The lead should be 1/16". The saw must run free and cool and almost self feed. The guides are there to give the saw something to lean on occasionally but not constant. Doing what you say you are doing is why the belt slippage. Too much lead eats more power and puts strain on the saw needlessly.

[Trapper John]

I kept adding lead because my cants are thicker at the far end but I guess that could be caused by other problems.  I lost my stone dresser and I noticed I am not getting sparks when I sharpen so maybe my teeth are not getting sharpened like they should.  I will order new teeth and go to 1/16" lead.  I notice my saw enters the cut nice and straight but it seems to start wobbling no matter how slow I feed and I do not hear the saw slowing down.  

[luap]

Don't know if you saw this video that was posted before but very informative on all the measurements and tolerances for a circle mill.
Trouble Shooting a Small Circle Mill in Sawmills and Milling

[glendaler]

very interesting video, thanks for posting.

[Trapper John]

Moodnacreek you were right about my excessive lead.  I found six teeth that had bad corners on the log side so I replaced them.  I found my dressing stick which made a big difference on my grinding wheel.  I plan on dressing the wheel each time I sharpen now.  I next set the lead to 1/32" and the saw is doing much better.  Has anyone used an idler on the drive belt?  I was wondering if an idler would stop the flapping in the belt and give smoother power to the arbor.  

[moodnacreek]

There are engineering formulas for running belts of all kinds. I don't understand these but they where figured out so a power transmission could be ordered and installed with the best results. Hay seeds like Me just copy something that works. Problem is you get some parts free or cheap or you have nothing to copy.  There is a correct speed in feet per minute for any belt and the pulley size is fore not only your ratio to get the speed of the driven shaft but also the belt speed. Then you have the length of the belt and now to make matters worse it is twisted to change rotation. The saw has to run at the hammered speed + a little and stay there. That's to bad because I bet there is a speed that will calm that belt flap. I have never seen a idler work on a crossed belt and in my mind it would take more pressure to hold it down because of the twist.  Also I think you can get C belts at least 300 inches long. I bet you would get by with 2. What a shame as I have every thing here to convert you mill because the new owner of my old bell saw runs tractor pto.

[Trapper John]

I have been working on a 20" log for about 5 hours now and its still a cant.  I just don't understand what I have done wrong.  Log keeps getting jammed in the saw, have used the come a long 4 or 5 times to pull the log out of the saw.  It will just not keep the hammered speed in the cut.  I am going very slow but no matter how slow I go the saw starts to flutter and then the belt starts to slip on the arbor pulley and I shut things down and spray the saw.  The saw gets hot in the inner area.  Last measurement of the lead was a scant 1/16".  Teeth are as square and sharp as I can get them.  I would pay transportation to Alaska for anyone who could get this thing to work but I think the mill is jinxed and unfixable.  Small logs seem to be OK.  Guess I will try the 48" D-7.  Heaviest saw I have and it has 5/16" teeth.  Will report in a few hours.  

[Trapper John]

I am happy to report that the 48" D-7 saw was able to make the cut.  It chatters in the guides but in a 14" cant it sawed without wobble and I could keep my speed up.  I sawed one board today but I am just tickled I was able to do that one board. ( But I sure am tired of moving saw guides and splitters around.)  I guess the greater mass of this saw plus the 5/16" teeth made the difference.  Thanks for all the support and advice.  

[jimparamedic]

It is amazing the little things that can really screw with a mill. Sawing soft woods the fuss that is on the face of the log will cause the saw to bog down and can heat the blade up too. Using a wider tooth is how to stop this from happening. I know when I started it was so frustrating when I thought every thing was set perfect and the mill would not cut right or even cut at all. When things are not working right I would have to start at the beginning and check each step of the set up. Hang in there is a learning curve to get through and you are well on your way. Also by chance are you running the right face of the flat belt on the pulley. There is an inside and an outside on most flat belts.

[moodnacreek]

Oh boy, this is where I was in 1980 learning on a Bell saw. Probably the most important thing is the corners of the teeth. If you can really file a chisel chain saw then you can file a sawmill blade. Also heating the saw means warming a portion or 1 side more than the rest of the plate BY AS LITTLE AS 5 DEGREES ! The sun will do more than that. This is why the saw bearing must run so cool. Those infrared thermometers are so handy. An experienced sawyer will know he [the log] has touched the saw back off and let it cool by itself  rather than keep sawing and actually heat the blade. That little warm spot causes the blade to start a new path and bend the plate to try to follow. You cannot allow this to happen as it will spoil the tension in the saw among other things.        A big circle saw turning on a shaft looks so simple, only 1 moving part, but to cut logs with it all day with no trouble takes knowledge and care.

[Trapper John]

Well put.  I am taking a closer look at my sharpening also but I am not impressed with my jockey.  The front "tooth ride bar" had a bolt hole in it that was just in line with the tooth and so the tooth would drop in it.  I replaced it with a strip of plastic.  And I have noticed the rear "tooth ride bar" is all chewed up from dragging sharpened teeth across it.  Is it a good idea to let a sharpened tooth ride on steel?  Good idea about the infrared thermometer,  will have to get one.  I am running the right belt side.  To take the twist out of my belt I could turn my engine around and use v belts and a jackshaft and then the flatbelt to the arbor but that would be complicating things and add friction.  Simpler would be a clockwise running engine.  Is a Cat 318 reversible?  

[moodnacreek]

Ye old Cat 318, what a sweet engine, runs on most any fuel, always starts somehow and lasts a long time. They did supply marine models in l/h and r/h so I suppose the answer is yes technically.

[Don P]

When I'm having trouble figuring out what is going wrong, before adjusting things I change out to new teeth and saw a little. That takes my sharpening or tooth condition out of the list of variables.
One other though is if the track is straight and level, set your level across the carriage at both ends, it should read the same. Then push the carriage down the track watching the level.

[moodnacreek]

About the jockey; I have 3 of them among other makes. On 1 I bought the easy slide kit and it works but not that smooth and I would say it is expensive for what little it helps and it will not work at all on a coarse tooth saw. Then I have welded and ground smooth the worn out slides and that's ok. Here is another choice; Jones makes a model called the long horn that has stainless steel slides that they say fits the Jockey. On those Jockey grinders the tail end is where you adjust it to grind square [ if it ever will]  Jockey grinders are a little crude but they are fast. If you keep an eye on your grinding [ like hand filing] and use a fine or diamond stone and don,t wait for the teeth to get dull, your teeth will be sharper than new.

[Trapper John]

On my jockey you adjust to square by loosening the clamp that holds the motor.  Definitely not German or Dutch design and definitely not worth the $600 plus they get for them.  I think most of my problems arise from not getting the torque to the saw.  At best an 8" belt will only transmit 50hp and so we are limited to 10" logs (if you figure 5 hp for each inch of wood).  I have read on the forum that others have had problems with an 8" belt as well.  Maybe a 10" belt will make sawing a joy instead of every log a struggle.  

[jimparamedic]

So have you sawn more with the D-7 blade and if so how did it do. If you are using plane steel teeth then just use a good file to sharpen I tried a jockey once and didn't like it. Wish I had the time to come and help. But my wife knows I would probably not come home.

[glendaler]

But my wife knows I would probably not come home.

:D My wife has started calling my sawmill my other wife, very addictive hobby. I think I would have a hard time leaving too, might pull a Dick Proenneke and make it a 30 year "visit".

[jimparamedic]

I tell my wife at least you know where to find me. And even though my sawmill can be a pain some times at least it don't talk back. And I think it is happy to see me

[bandmiller2]

Being a po-boy I've never owned a jockey. A file is about as simple a tool as you will find but not an easy one to master. If you can do a good job on a saw chain you should be able to master saw bits. That said I use a Dexter saw guide most of the time with a diamond grit file, even on soft bits. I file a little and often and the guide keeps me honest. For years I just used a 10" mill file, but you must file straight, no rocking or angles on the bits. The saw guide has two sets of rollers that hold the file 90 degrees to the bit at the proper hook. I'm not sure now where you can buy the saw guide, Bruce Dexter has been retired for many years now, someone must have picked up the torch. Frank C. 

[moodnacreek]

That Dexter file guide is an excellent tool. I bought 2 [one for a friend] from Bruce Dexter and one at an auction. When I went to chrome teeth I bought the diamond file that Bandmiller mentions. Because of hand pain I rigged up a way to mount the diamond file in a hack saw frame and this works good. Because the dia. file is not a file, you 'file' in both directions. I think the Saw Shop in N.H. sells this Dexter file guide and B.F. Payne has replacement dia. files for it. 

[jimparamedic]

BH Payne sells them

[Trapper John]

Jim, the D-7 is sawing but having the same issues as B-9s, the F-8, and the 3-8.  I can hear the saw slow down and the trouble starts.  I really have to feather the stick and keep the speed up.  I have noticed with the D-7 that sometimes it throws sawdust at me?  This morning I washed the belt and pulleys with hot water and tide.  I will take my belt sander and lightly scuff the pulleys at right angles to the belt travel.  Will check my lead again, I assume it will increase going from a smaller saw to a larger saw.  I will try filing also.  Thanks for all the info on that file guide and diamond files.  Is there anything to why some people saw spruce from but to top?  

[jimparamedic]

Throwing saw dust at you is not unusual. All so sawing at full speed feed rate in wide cuts will bog down the saw. Once you are under 6-8 " you will see a big difference  

[Trapper John]

Sawing only 6-8" is not an option.  I tried the freshly scrubbed belt and pulleys but I could not saw so I tried some spray dressing and it improved a lot confirming my suspicion about the belt.  But now I have another problem.  The feed drive pulley on the arbor will not stay in place.  I tightened the set screw as much as I dared along with lock tight but it still loosens and the pulley slides in.  How does one solve this problem?