Gas or Diesel

[sherpa]

I'm looking at the possibility of upgrading mills to a Woodmizer LT50 hydraulic from my current LT40 manual mill mostly due to the demands of customer orders.  I'm not able to keep up with production @ 2-300 bd ft/hr currently and the size of the material needing to be 10-12" diameter and larger 10' long ash material for one individual customer that has just requested 6000 feet/month for at least the next 12 months.

My question is this, if you were buying a new mill would you prefer gas or diesel for the engine?  Electric is not an option for me since I cant get 3 phase where I'm at and don't have a desire to get into a phase converter.

[Ianab]

Diesel is generally better. More durable and better torque curve. For milling that's what matters, so a 20hp diesel will perform better than a 20hp gas.

But diesels are heavier, and cost more, hence the gas engines are still popular.

If you have the work to justify a better mill I would suggest the diesel.

I see the LT50 comes with either a 38hp gas, or a 47hp diesel, so the difference is even bigger than the numbers would suggest.

Ian

[Brucer]

Diesel is definitely better for bandsaw operation. As Ian says, the torque curve is better.

I'd have bought one if I had the money at the time. Now a I wish I'd scraped together the extra cash.

Keep in mind that just buying a bigger mill won't give you much more production unless you've already cut down the time you spend handling material.

[Alyeska Pete]

sherpa,

Diesel without reservation. Have owned & operated both gas and diesel and even though you pay an initial premium over over gas, you will make it up before to long in performance, maintenance, and economy. My current mill has a 51 HP Perkins and burns 4.8 gallons of fuel in 8 hours of milling. I also believe that diesel mills command a much better resale value than gas powered mills.
That said, just going hydraulic over manual will more that double your current production even with a gas engine. As Brucer wrote earlier "Keep in mind that just buying a bigger mill won't give you much more production unless you've already cut down the time you spend handling material."

Pete

[Bibbyman]

Not an option?   If you're sawing stationary and have electric service available, electric motor trumps fuel engine in every way.

If you can't instal a converter yourself (I couldn't), get someone qualified (I did).

Once hooked up there is nothing to do but push the button. Instant power. Two squirts of grease a years is the total maintenance plan.

The electric bill will be pennies on the dollar to run compared to fuel. DanG!  You'll spend more on fuel going to get fuel for a fuel engine than an electric motor would cost to operate. 

Just ask anyone thats went electric motor.

[york]

Hi,
What Biddyman said and add a live Deck-you should think about log handling..
albert

[sherpa]

Hmmmmmmm..........all good points to consider.  My problem with electric Bibby is Im already at about peak power usage each month with the kiln and moulder.  If I hit the peak power usage 2 consecutive months, the power company tacks on an additional overusage cost that is approximately $350/month extra I've been told.  I have to research more to make sure I'm being told correctly though.

I know just going bigger isn't the total answer but my log handling is about as efficient as can be.  I have contemplated adding and edger but my helper is already steady go with stacking/stickering, handling slabs and keeping logs on the skidway and I'm consistently getting 250-300 ft/hr as I operate now.

Is the LT 50 actually capable on a consistent basis of producing 750 board foot/hr as woodmizer claims???? I'm assuming its more realistic to hit 550 ft/hr consistently...........

[WoodenHead]

Diesel is certainly better than gas.  I too have the manual LT40.  My next mill purchase will be an electric, unless the custom milling demand significantly increases.  The torque curve of an electric motor (or steam) surpasses diesel and gas by far.  Torque is what you need to make it through the tough cuts.

But I agree with the others that handling starts to become the bigger issue.  You answered some of my questions as I was about to post this (so I changed it), but you may need to consider adding another person if your production is going to increase (i.e. double).  I would consider an edger.  If you are as efficient as you can be, can you handle more sawdust and slabs?  Can you and/or your helper sticker stack twice as much?  Ash is not the heaviest wood, but it is not the lightest either.  All these things are going to multiply with increased production.

As for peak power, I can understand that.  There are significant penalties in some areas for consistently going over peak. You must have a very large kiln and/or moulder.  My utility doesn't get excited about peak until the load is 50kW or higher.       

[ladylake]

 Diesel for sure as it will pay fir itself in around 2500 to 3000 hours just in fuel saving. With around  a 50 hp diesel you will have no shortage of power.   Steve

[sherpa]

My kiln is loaded and operating every day of the month.  It is an Nyle L200 and a typical full load is 4k bd ft.  My moulder is a Logosol PH 260 and it operates about 15 days/month running paneling, flooring and S4S.  Typical monthly power bill right now is about $6-700/month. 

The sawdust is currently being used for animal bedding by a few local farmers and I'm trying to rid the rest to the 2 local power plants for fuel.  The slab wood is sold as firewood and some kept to operate my outdoor wood boiler which I'm in process of hooking up to the kiln to help heat it and offset the power usage.

I am anticipating adding another person to the mix if I upgrade to the bigger mill to handle the increased production rate if needed.

All growing pains to more demands for lumber!  A good problem to have but still a problem.

[Magicman]

I would choose Diesel, no question, but that alone will not double your production.  It is my understanding that the "published" figures are what the sawmill is capable of sawing and would probably include an edger.  All lost time from lumber/log handling is also eliminated.

[bandmiller2]

Whats with these power co.'s I thought they were in the business of selling power.? Sherp I'd check, with the volume of power you use they should supply you with three phase.It may cost some to get three phase but you would live happily ever after. Everything the Bibbster says is true about electric.If no outher option go diesel. Frank C.

[pineywoods]

In some cases the diesel ain't the bargain it appears to be. They are not very tolerant of poor maintenance and upkeep. Case in point. A local mill owner let the fuel system on a WM lt40 super get full of water. So much that the engine wouldn't start. He decided to park the mill and fix it later. Later all four injectors and pump were rusted  trash. Parts alone over $2000. Same situation had it been a gas engine would have been a carb overhaul or replacement for a bunch less cost.
Fuel savings are there, but insignificant. My fuel cost (gas) average about $5 per hour including oil changes, a small part of overall costs.
The useful life of a diesel is considerably longer, but the gas motors on most bandmills last 4000-5000 hours. Replacement/overhaul cost is WAY less than a diesel.
Performance wise, unless you make a habit of pushing the feed rate up until the motor starts to bog down, there's not much difference between gas and diesel of comparable hp.

[NCDiesel]

Electric is best - check with your power company before you rule it out.

If you can't do electric, I'll relate my expereince:  I have owned nothing but diesels for more than a decade - including my vehicles (wife's car is a diesel too).   I have never regretting paying the extra up front for a diesel, and without a doubt the math works out over the long term.  The primary paybacks are fuel savings and resale, whether it is a generator, tractor, or car.

However, since the payback is mostly fuel efficiency, you need to use the item in question frequently enough for that savings to pile up quickly.  Sounds like you do.  The performance characteristics, simplicity, reliability, longevity and ease of maintenance  are icing on the cake.

Diesel hands down if you put the hours on the machine and you can't do electric.

PS:  Having said this I must admit the first gas engine I bought in years was my sawmill this past April.  It is the Cooks' MP32,which is a hobby sawmill and the diesel engine is not available on it.  Even if I could have gotten one, I doubted I would put much more than 100 hours a year on it; which is not frequent enough use to realize fuel savings quickly enough.

[ladylake]

 
Piney
  Have to disagree with you, my 27hp gas used 1 gph while my Isuzu uses 1/2 gph sawing hard saving me about $5700 in 3000 hours. Plus it saws a lot faster in big hard wood than the Kohler ever did. I change oil every 200 hours vs every 40 hours on the Kohler.  So far in 3500 hours I've had put in 2 new glow plugs at $25 each, my fault as I ran them too long and burnt them out.  15 seconds max at 0 and about 5 seconds when it warm. If the OP is running around a 25 hp gas he'll gain quite a bit of cutting speed in the ash he's cutting, wide ash takes power.   Steve

[petefrom bearswamp]

My vote is for diesel
My perkapillar has loads of torque and is very fuel efficient.
My only complaint is that it is cold blooded.
My fuel consumption is about the same as that of ladylake's
I saw about 6 hr per day on 3-3/1/2 gal depending on how hard I push.

[SPD748]

I'm certainly partial to diesel myself. Now... if only I could get Woodmizer to mount a 6-71 Detroit Diesel to a LT50. It could be a LT50-71DD  ;D

-lee

[ElectricAl]

Sherpa,

You asked if an LT50 can produce volume.

We have an Electric 50 and a Morgan Edger just like Bibby's.

2 days ago we sawed 504' of Walnut in 38 minutes.
The reason it took so long was the Dust Blower plugged up.

Keep in mind we have 4 people, and it was a large log.

But pounding out the volume....it will do it.


Your results may very.

Small logs are a production killer.

Size does matter  ;)

ElectricAl

[bandmiller2]

There is much truth in what Pineywoods said and diesels are not for everyone.Hobby and light duty millers will find the gasoline engine a better choice.Someone cutting a lot and for hire is probably better off with a diesel.A gas engine well maintained will run a long time and be reasonably cheap to rebuild or replace. Frank C.

[Dave Shepard]

I prefer diesel over gas, especially with the poor quality ethanol fuel.

I feel that whenever you upgrade a mill to get more production, you must upgrade your material handling equally. In fact, upgrading material handling alone may give you the increased production you need.

SPD748, a 2-71, or even a 1-71 would be more than sufficient. :D Would also have the added advantage of scaring the bark off the log before the band got to it. ;D

[terrifictimbersllc]

I like worrying less about fire hazard, with diesel.