Cougar kills a horse in Michigan...

[Jeff]

Ha! I think they already are. My last batch of photos from the camera on my place. Long as "they" eventually let us hunt them, We'll tolerate em.











You show me those statistics about black bear. I think yer pulling those out of yer rear.

[Jeff]

Pah-leeze

Quit talking like I'm in the freaking yellowstone or the wilds of Alaska.  The wolf is not the top down predator here. And when I say here, I mean here, not in your overly broad view of theory.  I am the top down predator.  We have no oak here. Its not Oak country. We have very good cedar regeneration HERE. Two things have changed dramatically in the last ten years. We have less deer, and more wolves.

The dnr does not kill wolves because they kill deer. Who are you kidding. They might kill wolves when they kill livestock. There is no livestock here. Only game species.   My understanding is the boys over by Pickford that have some livestock have chosen to deal with the problem in their own way. I won't do what they do as it means every other predator and perhaps the family dog are effected as well, however we are starting to see deer in the fields over there again in larger numbers where there once were very few.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Ultimately we are the top down predator everywhere (even yellowstone and alaska). Glad you east end boys are up on your ecosystem ecology. Ever thought about why there is no Oak over that way? I know of a few places out east with deer enclosures that oak is present in good numbers...hmmm..... Your one of them people that is just in love with un-naturally large numbers of deer, and that will never change. I on the other hand would much rather see a more balanced ecosystem (from trees to all wildlife not just game species). With un-natural deer heard numbers other issues come into play, like imbreading, genetic shifts, disease presence and severity, etc, etc as well in the reduction of a food base for other wildlife...

I looked for the Journal on the fawn mortality, and couldn't find it. Then I remembered I received the data from a colleague who is continuing the research presently. The results should be published in the next few years.

At this point I'm done arguing. Just reaffirms the fact I never want to live on the east end of da UP, where the trolls flock in shocking numbers. We all have our opinions, and can do with them what we please.

[Jeff]

Ever thought about why there is no Oak over that way?

Have you?  Obviously you need some forestry refresher courses if you are a forester.  Come take some soil samples.

Your one of them people that is just in love with un-naturally large numbers of deer

And you are obviously someone that in love with un-naturaly high wolf populations and excludes man from the natural equation. We are part of the ecosystem, the top of your mentioned trophic cascade, and as long as we are, we have the ability to adjust things to our personal benefit.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Ever thought about why there is no Oak over that way?

Have you?  Obviously you need some forestry refresher courses if you are a forester.  Come take some soil samples.

So the entire east end of the UP will not support oak? I know of some places in the neighborhood of Detour with very nice oak. Then just have to fence the regen to keep the heard out.

[Jeff]

There is no herd.

Once again, show me the good oak area near detour. Google should help.   You might look towards sand ridge road, there is some oak there, however there are no deer there either. its sterile.

So the entire east end of the UP will not support oak?

Did I say that?

Pah-leeze

And when I say here, I mean here, not in your overly broad view of theory.

I looked for the Journal on the fawn mortality, and couldn't find it. Then I remembered I received the data from a colleague who is continuing the research presently. The results should be published in the next few years.

Thats what I figured.

Why resort to calling people trolls when your beleives are challenged?

[chevytaHOE5674]

Your from downstate therefor a troll, nothing with beliefs.

As for the Oak, get out and walk the land and talk to as many landowners as you can. With your expansive knowledge you should have no problem finding some areas  ;). 

As for cedar regen, if you were to clear cut an acre patch of your cedar, are you 100% sure that cedar would regenerate and recruit into the overstory?

And when I say here, I mean here, not in your overly broad view of theory.

When you say "here" if you mean your 20 acre parcel of land then it is impossible to manage ANY game on that size land. If you were to shoot all "your" wolves more would take their place. Wolves cover 100's of miles without batting an eye. Wildlife management must take place at more landscape levels.

we have the ability to adjust things to our personal benefit.

You say "our" personal benefits. They are YOUR personal benefits.

Anywho believe what you want, I'll continue to not be bothered by the wolves, and go on with my life living in da western UP.  Good day.

[Jeff]

Hey, you started this debate. Don't go getting all offensive when I try to call in your information. You inferred I didn't know what I was talking about and that I am wrong.  Back up your statements if you want to sway me. I wont bother to explain to you in any detail the landowners connections here that encompass a very large area that includes my little 20 acres.

I do believe you are the one that told me about the oaks here that you know about. Why do I need to go out and start searching them out when you already know where they are at? I've covered a few thousand acres over the last 20 years or so up here, so I pretty much know what I have seen and where, so yer going to have to narrow the search for me. I can go check it out and then agree with you once I have found it.

We know better then to cut patches of cedar like acre squares, like I am guessing you are inferring. If you want cedar regeneration here, you cut it in narrow strips.  Clear cutting areas of cedar removes cedar maybe forever. You just don't do it that way.  I can show you how its been done with success here right across the road with Lou's property. (a non-troll)  He's been actively managing his several hundred acres for around 50 of his over 80 years.  Just one of the many connecting large land owners doing the same things. Many of my original believes were akin to yours, and still are in essence, but after time on the ground in the middle of it HERE, and with the added influence and knowledge of the old timers around here, I now side with them. I'll try and get some telling photos on how the cedar regenerates here.

When you say "here" if you mean your 20 acre parcel of land then it is impossible to manage ANY game on that size land

That's funny. :D I am lucky enough to have my 20 acres surrounded by mostly good neighbors that don't try and diminish my views because I don't own large tracts like they do.

I don't think you have taken in a thing I have said.  Let me condense it for you. Our, and I mean our including other area land owners, is that wolves are one of and perhaps thee limiting factors here in a greatly diminished deer population from what it was 15 years ago. It was not diminished by the wolves in the beginning, but by the winter of 1995.  The deer have never been able to recover from that even though environmental conditions should have allowed it. Taking  a few wolves out of the equation around here would give the deer a foothold again.

Why can't you fathom that we might just have a localized problem here?

[chevytaHOE5674]

Why can't you fathom that we might just have a localized problem here?

I fathom that you may have a localized "problem". But wolf/wildlife management covers entire landscapes. Collared wolves from michigan have turned up as far away as Missouri. So it is impossible to manage for your few square miles of land that has a "problem".


Edit: Also id like to know the secret to cedar regen. We cut small strips and irregularly shaped patches and get nothing but balsam and spruce regen. We have a pack or 2 of wolves, hunters, and few deer. But still 1-2 deer yard in the swamp and eat everything they can reach.

[Jeff]

Sure its possible. A few well placed shots will manage it. The problem is, it will manage it in a way that others don't agree with. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I will say that when there is a wolf season, I will be the first on the list for a tag.

[pasbuild]

In the U.P. of Michigan we have a Sportsman's program on every monday night and it is called Discovering with Buck La Vasser.  Well this week he sat down and questioned the Wildlife Division Chief of Michigan's DNR about the deer numbers at an all time low here in the U.P. and without even having to coax him, the answer out of his mouth was the wolves are out of control.  I cut out this section of program and if you have a fast enough connection you can watch it below.  Wait until you see the image appear in the video box below before you try to play it.  This is a good first step in getting our deer herd back and getting these wolves back down to a manageable level.


This clip of the video taken from TV6 Discovering with Buck La Vassuer

[pasbuild]

Well I screwed that up : ???  you can go here and view the 10/26 clip, its the last segment in the half hour show so you will want to fast forward ;D
http://www.uppermichiganssource.com/on_wluc/content.aspx?id=110744

[chevytaHOE5674]

Only thing I will mention about his comment is that wolves kill an estimated 5% of the total yearly whitetail kill count. Winter kills something like 40%, with hunters about equal to winter, the rest is automobiles. If cars kill more deer than wolves, should we limit automobile travel? Or should we supplementaly feed the deer heard and make them pack into a feed lot, so that when CWD gets here it runs wild......?  Just some food for thought.

Brian Roell the DNR's wolf specialist is a great guy and if you get the chance you should pick his brain as much as possible. I enjoy talking to him and he always has interesting tid bits of information that will make you think.

[beenthere]

We all have our own opinions.  : :

Even the DNR specialists.  ;D

[chevytaHOE5674]

Even the DNR specialists.  ;D

The Mi wolf specialist is an avid hunter, and said he would love to see a limited wolf hunting season in the future. 

[Gary_C]

Today I happened to have a meeting with a MN DNR Forester who has also worked in the wildlife area. I asked him about the wolf situation and he said that all the wolf specialists he knows believe that the wolf should have been delisted from the endangered species list any where from 15 to 20 years ago. Now they have become a nuisance and a sometimes costly one at that because of all the money that has to be paid for wolf kills of livestock. The problem with delisting has been the wolf lovers have been able to find a sympathetic judge that will listen to their pleas that more time is needed for the recovery.

However the state of Idaho must have found a judge that has allowed them to proceed with a wolf hunt this year. He did not know how it turned out, but he said the best thing for the wolf would be to allow hunting of wolves and shoot a hundred or so and put the fear of man back in the wolves thinking.

And I cannot believe that any serious livestock producer would be indifferent to a pack or two of wolves harassing his livestock.  :

A cow calf operation has to feed that cow for 365 days per year and the only money he makes is from that one calf. If he loses the calf to wolves, there goes his profit from that cow and any number of others just to break even. So many of the wolf specialists have been sympathetic to the farmer/ ranchers problems and have mostly looked the other way when it came to wolf kills.

[chevytaHOE5674]

endangered species list any where from 15 to 20 years ago.

20 years ago in Michigan there was something like 3 wolves. So i doubt they wanted them delisted then.

And I cannot believe that any serious livestock producer would be indifferent to a pack or two of wolves harassing his livestock.  :

There are only a handful of working cattle farms in michigans UP that have had any depredation. One cow calf operation had something like 5 calves go down in one year. The DNR DID remove almost the entire pack IIRC. In our local area though we (us and our neighbors) haven't had any calves go down, so the the wolves aren't an issue.

[Gary_C]

Wildlife management must take place at more landscape levels.

20 years ago in Michigan there was something like 3 wolves. So i doubt they wanted them delisted then.

So now you are the one wanting to manage at your local level?

[Reddog]

20 years ago in Michigan there was something like 3 wolves. So i doubt they wanted them delisted then.

That was when they finally admitted to wolves.

Back in the early 70's we had a few packs north of Amasa and spread east and west from there. Dad would see the tracks while logging. The two MI DNR biologist's knew they where there but officially could not say anything. They felt at that time they had come from MN who at that time had a large qty in the boundary waters area.
So yes MN has had the problem much longer than MI because of anti's.
Needless to say they are here to stay and people need to learn how to deal with them. Most of the smarter Ranchers and farmers have learned how to run their operations more wolf proof. Sorry to say but Pickford isn't one of those areas. They are going to get them selves in some serious trouble before this is all done.

[chevytaHOE5674]

So now you are the one wanting to manage at your local level?

No I'm saying that even if Mn had enough population to delist Michigan and possible Wi did not, therefor they shouldn't and weren't delisted. They are listed for the region, and that is how they need to be managed.

Needless to say they are here to stay and people need to learn how to deal with them. Most of the smarter Ranchers and farmers have learned how to run their operations more wolf proof.

Exactly, they are one of those things that you have to learn to live with. You adjust your habits and such to prevent trouble as much as possible, and then deal with it when it does occur.

[Gary_C]

But wolf/wildlife management covers entire landscapes. Collared wolves from michigan have turned up as far away as Missouri. So it is impossible to manage for your few square miles of land that has a "problem".

No I'm saying that even if Mn had enough population to delist Michigan and possible Wi did not, therefor they shouldn't and weren't delisted. They are listed for the region, and that is how they need to be managed.

But then you are narrowing your region to suit what you want to say.

Actually in my conversation with that DNR Forester, he was speaking more of the situation in all of the US and especially the west. We were not speaking specifically about MN, MI, or any other region.

But you are missing the point completely to argue time or regions. From what I have heard and what he confirmed, most all of the Wildlife Biologists that have been involved in wolf management have been saying for a long time that the wolf population has exceeded proper levels and now we have too many. It is only thru the efforts of some radical activists and some activsts judges that the populations have been allowed to grow and become an economic hardship on both the government that must pay "just compensation" and the property and land owners that suffer economic hardship that is caused by more than just "kills" that are discovered and proven.

[Ron Scott]

A few of my most memorable woods experiences over the years have been lonely  encounters with wolves in the western UP. A couple were in the 1950's before the wolves were placed on the ET&E species list and one in 1993 after they were listed.

[chevytaHOE5674]

But then you are narrowing your region to suit what you want to say.

Its hard to convey in typing, what I am saying is that the entire upper great lakes wolf region needs to have stable populations before they are delisted, and managed. That means that even if state A has 1000 wolves and state B has 100 wolves, you can't delist them for state A because management in A could/would have a negative impact on state B's population. Population ecology, biology, and management is difficult for species that cover large ranges. Wildlife doesn't know political and management boundaries.

[Tom]

(To no one in particular)

We almost decimated an entire portion of our population one time.  Thank goodness it is coming back.

There was a time, about 50 years ago, when the occupation of thievery was endangered. It's the segment of humanity that depended upon this predation that was ultimately at risk.

So many of these people had been killed, or put away into prisons that you seldom heard of a residence being violated.

Then there was a great uprising of sentiment and a knowledgeable and educated portion of the population realized the damage we were doing to this endangered society.  Large amounts of money were spent to "rehabilitate" these poor souls.  Prisons were closed, laws were softened, the terrible acts of vengeance were ceased and now, praise the almighty, we again have a healthy population of thieves, murders, drug dealers and scam artists on the streets.  Why, there have been six or seven break-ins on my street alone this year.

It's good that we have so many concerned in the preservation of the world, as it has ever existed, to our own knowledge.   Just think of our poor grandchildren not  ever knowing what it is like to have their child killed, just because a bunch of unfeeling law enforcement officers cleared the streets.  Oh my!

Next week, perhaps, we'll discuss "bleeding hearts".