Eastern White Cedar

[miketaylor]

Good morning guys

I am new to this member forum and extremely "green" to the forestry industry.  Anyways, I will throw some question(s) out there and see if anyone can respond.  My family has a nice piece of land on a Lake in eastern ontario, Canada, and our property is primarily covered by what I consider to be "large" Eastern White Cedar (EWC). The trees average between 14-18 inch diameter (some even larger) with heights about 55-65 feet. The trees are extremely straight with a slow taper. We have already built a cottage but would like to move to the next step in constructing a post and beam garage for our toys, tractor, cars.

My family has considered removing 75-100 large cedar trees from our property which I would say is less than 10% of the total trees on our property. We have been considering buying a portable bandsaw mill (norwood or woodland mills) and doing the milling work ourselves. We know our way around tools and currently have a stihl saw and alaskan chainsaw mill but I will be 100 years old before I could get enough milled. we live in south western ontario and takes 5+ hours to get to the cottage so we only get up there 3-4 weeks a year.

Our other thoughts are to mill the wood with our own (to be purchased mill) for the construction of the garage including cedar shake shingles, siding, and all of the beams and have someone else come in to build. We also have a friend that works at a lumber yard in roslin so we have connections to drying our own wood in their kilns.

so some general questions.

1) can EWC be used for structural beams in post and beam?
2) What would be the best way to maximize profit of cutting down EWC? (selling the timber, milling to various sizes, planing?)
3) Are there any sawmill companies in Eastern Ontario that would be interested in cedar already milled/planed?
4)should we just mill all of our own cedar and keep for ourselves and hire a structural engineer to design a post and beam garage using cedar?

thanks for any help.

Mike

[shelbycharger400]

Photos? ?!   Cedars are a lot of work and take a lot of processing time.   I'm almost done doing in around 25 eastern red cedar and they produced around two to three saw logs each. I'm looking at setting up my circle mill cause my slabber just would take forever. Also, cedars are very abrasive so plan on some metal abrasion on your equipment.   Invest in a chain grinder and such

[thecfarm]

miketaylor,welcome to the forum.
I hope someone from your area can comment on your cedar. Mine cedar is about like yours, but mine are rotted hearted. Lose about 6-8 feet from every tree.
I think the cedar would have to be planed. Most sawmills will vary a little. That why it's called rough sawn lumber.

[SwampDonkey]

Welcome to our humble home.

Some of your questions can only be answered if you network a little bit with the markets and players in your area. I'm not sure a sawmill will buy milled lumber. That's why they are a sawmill to saw their own to sell to you. Plus owning a sawmill does not a good sawyer make, but comes with experience and help over time. There are places like lumber brokers or stockers that buy lumber, but they have to meet a grade requirement. They will often buy green lumber and kiln it themselves for resale. I would be talking with the structural engineer before any sawing so you will become aware of modern dimensions for lumber to fit today's brackets and connectors. Plus if you are in a regulated area as to the use of grades of lumber and load bearing ratings, who will sign off on your home made lumber? Will your design engineer? Some laws will halt everything from sewer, insurance to electric if the lumber used is not graded or signed off. I know it's a garage/storage building, but a garage far off by itself in a remote woods lot is a different garage than one where there are 200+ camps around a lake like a town. If I built a storage shed on my woodlot here, not a soul to bother me, and if so they would be escorted off my land post haste. ;D

If the cedar is going to be siding it should be planed, but interior posts and beams and trusses can be rough if they are covered up, but should match today's connectors. Any cedar for trim or finished walls should be planed for sure to paint or stain easier for one thing.

Good luck.

[shelbycharger400]

I'd give a few phone calls to a few timber framer's.    Few years ago one called me when he found I had erc.    Ill look in my emails later,   he has an operation in brainerd I believe

[Ianab]

1) can EWC be used for structural beams in post and beam?

You can build with most woods. Some are stronger than others of course, so you may need to adjust plans depending on the species used. Larger dimensioned components, shorter spans etc. But cedar is pretty stable and durable, so it's a useful wood for construction.

2) What would be the best way to maximize profit of cutting down EWC? (selling the timber, milling to various sizes, planing?)

The further you are able to process wood yourself, the more $$ you should get for it. Taken to it's logical conclusion, making it into finished items gets the most value. Cedar is both easy to air dry and good for outdoor uses. Deck furniture, planter boxes, raised garden beds, fence boards etc. Stuff you can both produce with just basic equipment and skills, and sell locally for a retail price. Basic idea is if you can take a $50 log, and turn it into a $100 of sawn lumber that's OK. But make that into a $500 picnic table, you have maximised the value right?

3) Are there any sawmill companies in Eastern Ontario that would be interested in cedar already milled/planed?

Probably not, you are now effectively their competition. They might have been interested in buying your logs, but of course will only pay the low value the logs have.

4)should we just mill all of our own cedar and keep for ourselves and hire a structural engineer to design a post and beam garage using cedar?

Possibly the best option. A local building engineer will be able to advise you on the local building codes, and probably certify your plans to use locally produced wood. This is one way of getting around building codes that require graded lumber, get an engineer to sign your plans / lumber as "OK" I would talk to the Engineer first as he will know how things work locally, and what the issues are going to be.

A small band mill should work to process the logs. Takes a bit longer than a larger mill, and cedar logs do have their quirks. But what you are planning should be practical 

Ian

[miketaylor]

thanks for all of the quick replies by everyone. I will see if I can find a few pictures of the trees.

from what I am gathering here, maybe the structural part of the post and beam garage should come from wood (Pine or hemlock) that is graded and that non structural finishing wood could come from our own cedar like the exterior board and batton cedar siding and interior finish. Maybe I could come up with an agreement with a milling/reselling lumber yard in Roslin Ontario called Chisholm lumber where they might purchase my green lumber in exchange for graded post and beam.

I think maybe I need to talk to an engineer and come up with a design plan before we cut/mill any trees.

This is the most local operation to us: http://www.chisholmlumber.com/products.html

[Jeff]

As thecfarm mentioned, some cedar locations can have an issue with heart rot. Perfectly fine looking specimens as a tree, but once cut down the heart is rotten or the tree even hollow. Especially with bigger trees. Have you cut any of them down in the past to know if your trees are sound?

As for selling lumber to sawmills, I can't speak for all mills, but I know the one I worked for did indeed buy lumber from small mills that was cut to our specifications and standards for our markets and delivered to our mill. Of course we didn't pay what we got when selling our lumber, but the boss had no problem making a profit on someone else's lumber when all we had to do was load it on to our trucks.

[Magicman]

I am of no help with EWC but, Welcome to the Forestry Forum, miketaylor.   

[Ianab]

I think maybe I need to talk to an engineer and come up with a design plan before we cut/mill any trees.

That's where I would start too. Then you know what's going to be practical, legal etc and you can make your cut list. No point going and milling a heap of 8" beams when the Engineer comes along and says "Cedar isn't as strong, we need to use 10" beams"  :

You can always get started sawing out 1" stuff for siding (Board and Batten?). That can then be used no matter what actual structure you end up building.

Ian