I can site several articles where Sweden officials are saying there isn't a second wave, but yes, numbers are increasing, just not like those countries that are exploding. Also if it is being driven by the young, deaths will hardly follow.
I never said they had herd, however they have a higher incidence of it.
Young people getting it is not really a concern, as the mortality rate is lower than the flu.
Elderly people locking down should be encouraged. Under 60 and healthy not so much.
As to their economy. There's a difference believe it or not if people and businesses choose to shut down for a time vs being forced to shut down and not be able to reopen. I can site several articles on it as well.
Here's am article from JP Morgan that finds lockdowns offer no benefit. There are some good numbers in it.
My newspaper today lists the businesses where they've been fined by the city/county health depts enforcement of 670 recent (mostly) no mask complaints. Major companies like grocery chains, Walmart and gas stations are paying $50 fines.
If I worked for $10-15 hourly I'd let em go too! And I'd certainly not call out an employee over that situation. Sure beats becoming an ER client?
Other shoppers often glare at you when you walk in with a mask on, when they don't and why become statistic over someone else's unwillingness to follow the guvs mandates?
Likewise I mostly don't fault the businesses for allowing the few to not be stopped at the door. It's a volatile situation! and time to suck it up.
JP Morgan-the place where they count our money? :D No shortage of "experts" on viruses these days? And I thought they studied economics to work there?
@kantuckid (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7283) They study numbers. They have some very excellent quants
Some of this I run into at work frequently. The client is wanting to gripe about the bush the excavator ran over 2 weeks ago and I'm looking ahead towards the roofing contractor. I try to politely tell them that they need to get out ahead of the ball. My worry here is we crossed 100,000/day last week and 140,000/day this week. We are exploding. The young are getting ready to go home for the holidays. The virus has burned through all seasons somewhere in the world. We are moving indoors for the winter. Realistically the vaccine will not get to most of us till spring or summer.
I was in 4 businesses yesterday, I saw less than half a dozen masks. We have to get ourselves through this period. I've been fighting a cold that we've passed around throughout my little bubble so it shows I'm not in good compliance either. My wife was on a state zoom meeting for people in her position. She got busted for not being tested with a "cold" so just had the dipstick test and has to sit out till the results come back.
What I'm getting to here is we need to cut the chatter, grab our bootstraps and do the right thing if we are going to get this under control. Stay in the woods if you can, wear a mask if you can't, wash your hands, stay away from people if you can, tamp this thing down.
Minor nit pick on the 18-25 range. Current guidance from the WHCTF is to increase proactive testing among 18-40. Increased testing has always been strongly encouraged. That age range is more specific than the guidance has been in the past.
A source I follow that's really more Georgia focused, because Dr Schmidkte lived here until she and her family moved to Kansas this summer.
Here's the readers digest condensed version. "They are really emphasizing that Georgia needs to do proactive surveillance testing, specifically among 18-40 year olds, in red and orange counties. The 18-40 year old thing is important because that age group is the main source of our cases and also the age group that might be more likely to experience mild, if any, symptoms with coronavirus."
The Daily Digest, 11Nov2020 - Georgia COVID-19 Updates (https://amberschmidtkephd.substack.com/p/the-daily-digest-11nov2020)
@Don P (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=17) another good post. we are driving to visit a mill. Rain day here, so we stopped at a McDonald's sir restroom, 8 people ordering The only one not wearing a mask was the only young white male. Go to Lowe's for safety glasses (needed for mill and we don't want to wear hard hats) and most young males did not have masks. Disappointed.
I have just seen costs estimate of the prized vaccine- ochhh
@kantuckid (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7283) Yup, your age group needs to be careful x10. My mom who lived with my sister was kept pretty isolated. My sister a school teacher wasn't required to go back to work because of my mom. My brother in law worked for a paying company running the mill, so he was pretty isolated all the time anyways.
@Don P (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=17) Good post save the chatter. Public discourse should never be discouraged.
I think there a lot of great opinions. I do not mean to attack anyone for the record. but I am trying to follow the intent of the thread (see title) We had a trauma meeting and our pediatric trauma surgeon presented by zoom. spoke with her after, and she is at home due to covid. We have a Pediatrician with same. most folk in the ED with it, got it at home. so the PPE and sanitizer must do something or we would all have it. that is my opinion. there are very few indisputable facts as I have mentioned. Very few from the covid floor, ICU and ED have got the infection from work. Post veterans day, we should all look back at the sacrifice of the greatest generation. they gave up sugar, rubber, metal, and fuel. Not to mention life. I think we can wear a mask around others. just my opinion.
some of the folks that come to ed just want tested so that they can return to work, as they get nothing. our county commissioners put in an interim guy as they knew he would agree with them. proponent of herd immunity. the schools do not want input from medical people as they are trying to make parents happy. Parents cannot work if there kids are home from school. so lots of areas in life are ignoring science to comply with an agenda. we will all survive or not. and hope it will be over soon, and not recur after everyone has had it or been immunized. I feel well, and I am not afraid to get it, but I also have a responsibility to my co-workers, family and patients. Be strong and be safe.
I think the major cost of the vaccine will be to the tax payers not the individual directly.
Interestingly, the medical services are often 3-4 months behind now but are serving people like me in spite of the covid infection rate seen lately.
In my case it's not life or death but I do need some TEETH! ;D
kantuck, you are absolutely and positively spot on about relying on and reading facial expressions for human communication!
Here in western Ma. all 4 counties are getting a fast rise in covid cases, 4 a day in our county but our little farming bedroom town is still covid free ;).
Communication is an issue with masks for us hearing challenged folks. You don't realize how much you learn to read lips until you can't see them. Not being overly social anyway, I can deal with that in favor of the masks. I wear one. I'm old, fat, and have asthma and can still breath just fine with one.
If you call the hospital here and say you might have COVID, they will tell you to shelter up, drink plenty of fluids and get lots of rest...but NOT to come down to the hospital. So if you are over 65, get COVID and it's serious, you'll have to get(and pay for) a ride to the ER in an ambulance. I'm guessing they would take you at that point....but not sure.
They have these little tent things lined up outside the ER entrance, but I never see anybody there....I'm not sure what those are about. I've taken two friends recently to the ER for non-COVID related stuff. They threw me out of the waiting room once I helped one friend check in. The second time, I told them I was family and they let me come back to where my friend was.
Kevin
Same situation here, you are told to phone your Dr or the national health line. If they then think your symptoms / exposure risk warrants it they will send you for a "drive-in" test. Big tent in the hospital car park. You don't get out of your car, the full PPE kitted nurse takes your details and does the test, and you drive away again. "Stay home until you get a negative test". If it's positive it's handled case by case.
There was one positive community case yesterday, but that's been genetically linked to 3 other cases after an Airforce member that was working at one of the quarantine centres got infected. That ruled out another quarantine breach, and undetected cluster of cases. They haven't found a close link between the 2 cases, but they live / work in the same general area.
But with low numbers that's the level of tracing and testing that can be done. The virus RNA was sequenced overnight to check that it was from the same infection source.
Central Auckland was very quiet today as people were asked to stay home until the situation was assessed, but alert levels haven't been raised.
To point out differences in approach to covid- yesterday I had oral surgery in the same small college town as my Tuesday dentist visit nearby which required a covid test last week. I drove a 60k RT to get that test but at no cost for the actual test. I assumed they charged Medicare as I'm in their system on paper? test are free many places, are they not?
I hardly expect someone to "take me" to my medical appointments? That said, the Medicaid cabs are letting people off at every medical appt. I go too. They have signs on the door from all over eastern KY and a car/van full at that.
Calling a hospital to say "I think" "I might have something" is hardly a call to arms?
I had an aunt who did whatever she could to get admitted to a hospital, visit a doc, etc..
Poof Poof sniffles and people head for the doc. I stay away unless there's no other option, especially in covid times.
In my county we have an ambulance tax on our real estate property taxes, yet the nearest hospital where the heliport/homebase is located, that medical aviation company asked us to pay an added fee to become eligible for their services. I refused to pay so I suppose I'll die on the roadside if I'm in a wreck? along with the other roadkill... ;D
The oral surgery center never mentioned the test, yea or ney. They also didn't have me wash my hands before I sat in the chair nor gargle after I washed. They did have a masking requirement & asked those waiting to go back to their cars until live action began. I had no car as wife was doing a mammogram down the street and stayed inside.
As to Gary's comments, I concur. Not a call out & personal, just prefer no politicians names attached to the thoughts presented.
yes when we are swamped and short staffed, and some folks are not breathing well, it can be hard to get excited about someone who cannot taste or smell. There is not enough antiviral meds for everyone, so not much to do if you are breathing ok. some will continue to escalate their reported symptoms to get a test. no symptoms and we send it to the state. symptoms and you get a rapid, and results in 15 minutes. if presumptive negative it gets forwarded to the state to confirm (30% false neg. rate). If you are sick, low oxygen, dying, you get it all. intubated and put in ICU. I wish we had more meds that worked, so we could treat elderly before they are symptomatic. we see cases tested + last week, now sick so admitted and get the antiviral. the meds are regulated and doled out by the state health department. we still have to ration our testing supplies. that is on the companies that make the machines. they can just not get ahead of the curve, since the numbers are going back up. this is the only point of mitigation. the only benefit of getting a test and finding out you are positive, is so you can stay home and quarantine to keep 10 more people from getting it and overwhelming the medical system, and avoid your elderly friends and family. with a long incubation period, you may have been shedding virus for days, and it is already to late to keep them from getting it.
How did anyone jump down your throat? You seem to create your own weather, imo. You started off on this thread by basically calling the doctor wrong in his area of expertise...
I am pretty sure the wife and I got Covid a week ago. Minor symptoms, some still lingering. We went through TestIowa drive through testing today. They were well organized and efficient. I guess I didn't realize that when they do a nose swab they have to take the sample from the back of the eyeball. :D
Doug in SW IA
Vaccine shedding - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_shedding)
looks like we were both right. it is rare now but can occur. was more of a thing during the ice age when I was in school. smiley_old_guy any vaccine can have complications, but needs to be safer than the disease. The danger is if enough folks fear the vaccine, then not enough will take it to control the spread. Public health is designed to look at the good of the population overall. sad for any individual if they have a serious complication. but prob. saves thousands of lives. Much of the proposed complications are not proven and used as propaganda. politics have tried to take advantage as well it seems.
tuesday got my second shingels shot wednesday cut some wood for a friend did less than normal by 2 0clock was wiped out got home and slept for about 12 hours. my thinking was it was a reaction from the shot Thursday morning fine.
I got a shingles shot back when they came out. I've never known that I should have a 2nd one?
I do not do routine imms anymore, but looks like Shingrix is two shots separated by 2 to 6 months. must of found it works better. Zostavax is only one, but immunity declines over 5 years. the latter is live attenuated.
I was just down in the shop trying to hand sharpen a set of knives I just put on yesterday, a numbnut burned up 3 sets of planer knives >:(
Anyway, while I was in there there was a piece on the radio about a study that came out a couple of days ago from Vanderbilt. They found twice as many deaths in places without a mask mandate and higher hospitalization. My takeaway from that is if you aren't masking up and following protocols you are stressing the front line and causing harm to those around you and yourself. Aiding the enemy. I've had mixed feelings about a mandate, personally I'm over that, we hit another new high yesterday. Who gains if we are tied up with people who didn't take care, don't vaccinate, and are sick or dead, it ain't us.
Back to the grind :D
It is bad enough, that we had to ask plant ops about the flow rate of our oxygen lines into the hospital. had to calculate how many ventilators, bipap, and hi-flo oxygen devices we could run. no one planned for this but we are good. most things in hospitals are overdone, and redundant. this is why.
@Don P (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=17) I was just reading such a study and they said in places with mask mandates deaths and hospitalizations are lower. Then it also said that when there's mask mandates, there's restrictions on travel, gatherings and related, so there is no direct correlation, but they recommend wearing them.
The state department of health director here said the state will issue no mandate for masks. They feel they get better compliance if they ask and strongly encourage usage vs force and so many being defiant and all the problems that can cause.
I also read another study that health care providers are 3 to 4 times more likely to catch it then the general populace and family members are 2 times more likely to catch it.
In the clinic where my wife works there are 3 providers and 7 support staff. The 3 providers and the office manger wear the N95. One new mask per week, none of them have contracted it. The rest of the staff that wears the cloths masks have caught it.
Late last spring the office manager had called the state about contact tracing and she was told not to bother. That since it incubates so differently in even family members and with the state open for business, it's virtually impossible to contact trace every possible contact and where it started from. Mask usage between states with and without mandates are fairly similar, so it's most likely due too the social distancing and related.
that is right, and once the cat is out of the bag, and not just a few cases, does not help. the idea is to track down the exposures to quarantine incase they get it and can spread it. we are not trying to stop it anymore, we are just trying to slow it down, and protect the frail. i think a mask can do 2 things, poss. protect the wearer, and protect those in proximity with an infected person who cough or sneeze. i.e. reduce the chance of spreading the illness.
I compare wearing a mask to wearing a seatbelt in a motor vehicle, except the seatbelt worn only helps the wearer. It's pretty much standard practice to wear a sealtbelt these days for most people. Most every state has a law on the books requiring their use. Back in the late sixties-early seventies there were 50,000-55,000 deaths a year nowadays there are 35,000-40,000 deaths. Could be car safety engineering, could be seat belts. But in any case 10,000-15,000 less deaths. Don't hear many people complain about wearing the uncomfortable seatbelt anymore.
We are at 240,000 plus deaths in 9 months and asking people to wear a mask causes ire and anger in way too many people. Even if all the stats either pro or con are wrong, if all I have to do is wear a mask when I go in the corner store to make that elderly or immune system compromised neighbor feel safer then who am I to say I don't care.
Just read in todays WSJ, "How the Swiss Cheese Model Can Help Us Beat Covid-19".
The guy that wrote the piece (balanced IMO) is a sociologist/MD and the replies are really interesting too.
Masks are one of three layers of his swiss cheese analogy to getting through this pandemic. I'll add that no matter who's talking this covid thing gets heavily politicized. The article lacks that pointing fingers politics lean but the replies go wildly towards educational levels, age, what type person voted for who and so on.
Too bad some folks cannot focus on the prize here, which is to live a full life.
I read the WIKI on state by state seat belt use-it still is an issue. As a motorcycle rider of many years, the larger road safety issue is failure to yield right of way, speeding and under the influence-IMO, not based on a study. In all my life red lights and stop signs and turn in front of was not whats seen everytime I enter an urban area now. Me first society.
Probably someone's doing a PHd study now on mask wearers :D
To keep the analogy going, how about social distancing equates to maintaining a space cushion, ie not following too close? Large crowds=traffic jams? Just throwing it out there. Kansas tipped over into exponential growth. A microbiologist's blog I've been following thinks that is a bad thing.
A bit of mask testing.
Testing face masks: Lab tests reveal the safest and most effective (Marketplace) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHVyy08L2gM)
yes. busy. I got called in for a few hours last night. not to see pt.s but to call around to local hospitals since we were full. my nursing director came in, and called the icu and floor managers to get them to take more. staff is the issue with over 30 out sick. it is a conundrum, they do not want to over burden ICU nurses. they usually have a 1:1 or 1:2 patients. So a patient that needed ICU care then sits in the ED with nurses taking what ever comes in, say 1:4. have to change the mind set. and it is a challenge and potentially dangerous. as I left, the life team heli was taking off moving a patient to a less busy hospital. our usual hospitals we transfer to for higher level of care, are all full. we were sending patients to hospitals smaller than us just to get people in a hospital We are in it.
Saw on the news that one of our local hospitals has 50 personnel out with covid. Have not heard about the other one. both are small rural hospitals.
I had an eye appointment next week but it has been rescheduled two weeks out. I suspect covid is why.
like all equipment, you have to use it properly, and for the intended purpose. Thanks for all the support.
No one has said masks are 100% effective, because obviously they aren't. The smoke escaping demonstrates why.
But what the photo shows is the wearers breath or cough isn't streaming out in a 6ft plume towards anyone nearby. That must be "some" benefit. Same as staying 6ft away from people, it greatly reduces the chances of being infected. And sanitising your hands isn't 100% effective, but it reduces your chances of being infected. That's what's meant by "Swiss Cheese" protection. No part of it is 100% effective, and even the whole system isn't 100%. But if you combine three 50% effective measures, you end up with maybe a 90% improvement.
Now if you can reduce the transmission of the virus by 90%, it's going to reduce in numbers, and gradually going to die out if you can keep up the measures long enough.
@Don P (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=17) agree with your first sentence 100x.
Silent on second
No it's not the droplets that are the major concern. They drop pretty quickly. They are water. The aerosols are the major concern. They can stay suspended for 60 minutes in the air or longer. This is why masks that are loose around the face hardly work.
https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/blogs/penn-physician-blog/2020/august/airborne-droplet-debate-article#:~:text=Size%20alone%20is%20not%20the,much%20more%20difficult%20to%20avoid.
Size alone is not the only important distinction: Droplets fall to earth quickly, but aerosols can travel on air currents potentially for hours. Thus aerosolized viruses are likely to be much more infectious than viruses bound to respiratory droplets, and much more difficult to avoid.
Interestingly enough, the analysts analysis found that no matter the difference in statewide policies and enforcement, cases appeared to wax and wane along with changes in temperature, appearing to resist most efforts to control the viru
We'll see what happens here, should be an interesting experiment. It's the first time I've seen the owner of the local gas station with a mask on, maybe half the patrons today.
I imagine most have seen or heard this from the CDC in the past few days;
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recently released a statement that face masks do in fact offer protection to the wearer in addition to helping prevent the transmission of COVID-19. Initially, it was thought that masks only prevented individuals from spreading the virus to others but new research shows that exposure from infectious droplets is lowered through the filtration of masks.
I've heard hundreds of different things from the CDC. They aren't complete imbeciles, but they are close.
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 14, 2020, 10:36:40 PMSize alone is not the only important distinction: Droplets fall to earth quickly, but aerosols can travel on air currents potentially for hours. Thus aerosolized viruses are likely to be much more infectious than viruses bound to respiratory droplets, and much more difficult to avoid.
True, but if you reduce the direct transfer of droplets from the scenario, then you must have reduced the risk of transmission? Yes you could still get infected by the aerosol particles, but they appear much less of a risk than close (droplet?) contact. A large droplet could have 1,000X the number of Viruses than an aerosol droplet, and if it gets coughed at your face, I'd expect a high chance of infection.
Your reasoning explains a reason WHY simple masks are only partly effective. But it appears they ARE partly effective, which makes them a good idea.
Seat belt analogy... People still die in car crashes even if they are wearing seat belts. Does that make seat belts useless? No because you are a lot less likely to die if you are wearing one. The fact that they are not 100% effective doesn't mean we shouldn't use them.
I agree with the seasonal temperature have a large effect, but that does not say that mitigation strategies have zero effect. We know that other viruses like influenza and common cold spread more in the Winter, so it's no surprise this one acts the same. Just means you have to work HARDER to control the virus in the cold weather.
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 12:07:05 AM
I've heard hundreds of different things from the CDC. They aren't complete imbeciles, but they are close.
Hmm,
Center for Disease Control vs going to a retired truck driver for medical advice :D
That's not a real hard call is it ;)
Quote from: Ianab on November 15, 2020, 12:53:13 AM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 14, 2020, 10:36:40 PMSize alone is not the only important distinction: Droplets fall to earth quickly, but aerosols can travel on air currents potentially for hours. Thus aerosolized viruses are likely to be much more infectious than viruses bound to respiratory droplets, and much more difficult to avoid.
True, but if you reduce the direct transfer of droplets from the scenario, then you must have reduced the risk of transmission? Yes you could still get infected by the aerosol particles, but they appear much less of a risk than close (droplet?) contact. A large droplet could have 1,000X the number of Viruses than an aerosol droplet, and if it gets coughed at your face, I'd expect a high chance of infection.
Your reasoning explains a reason WHY simple masks are only partly effective. But it appears they ARE partly effective, which makes them a good idea.
Seat belt analogy... People still die in car crashes even if they are wearing seat belts. Does that make seat belts useless? No because you are a lot less likely to die if you are wearing one. The fact that they are not 100% effective doesn't mean we shouldn't use them.
I agree with the seasonal temperature have a large effect, but that does not say that mitigation strategies have zero effect. We know that other viruses like influenza and common cold spread more in the Winter, so it's no surprise this one acts the same. Just means you have to work HARDER to control the virus in the cold weather.
Not necessarily. It's much harder due to gravity to breath in large droplets and those large droplets drop almost immediately. The aerosols you can breath in for hours.
With that said, yes, if I am directly in front of you and you cough directly into my face, yes I'm going to have a higher chance of getting it. However, have you ever been directly coughed into the face? I never have been by anyone over 5 not sitting in my lap. People do use some sort of mitigation to stop the direct flow of large water droplets into my face. They either cough into their shirt, more like a loosely fitting mask or they cough into their elbow, more like a fitted mask or some will close their fist and place it over their mouth and the large droplets will land mostly onto their hand, but some will spray sideways (I see this one the least).
I've never said they are totally worthless. Just mostly. I've stated the types of mask that do the most good and IF they are available to use them. The main masks I've pointed my criticism to are the loosely fitted ones on the face.
Seatbelt analogy is comparing oranges to gold nuggets.
Correct, but besides forcing people into their homes and destroying their financial future and economies, that mitigation is not doing much based on the numbers presented. The other main factoid is this is less deadlier than the common flu for those under 65 and healthy or at the very least no deadlier, so it makes no sense to lock down people and economies to stop it. Ask people to social distance, ask people to use the proper masks, wash hands more often, yes, them all will help to some degree and the cure isn't going to cause more harm than the disease.
Quote from: Don P on November 15, 2020, 06:57:51 AM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 12:07:05 AM
I've heard hundreds of different things from the CDC. They aren't complete imbeciles, but they are close.
Hmm,
Center for Disease Control vs going to a retired truck driver for medical advice :D
That's not a real hard call is it ;)
Not much better. The CDC is, has been all over the place. I personally take little advice from hypocrites and political appointees no matter that flavor. I use common sense and intelligence to form my opines. I've presented studies and pictures to show that loose fitting masks don't do much. That lockdowns don't do much. If you want to wear a loose fitting mask, please do so. If you want to be locked down or are in agreement with such, please abide by such.
Quote from: Don P on November 15, 2020, 06:57:51 AM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 12:07:05 AM
I've heard hundreds of different things from the CDC. They aren't complete imbeciles, but they are close.
Hmm,
Center for Disease Control vs going to a retired truck driver for medical advice :D
That's not a real hard call is it ;)
apparently not as easy as you'd think
Quote from: nativewolf on November 15, 2020, 07:53:34 AM
Quote from: Don P on November 15, 2020, 06:57:51 AM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 12:07:05 AM
I've heard hundreds of different things from the CDC. They aren't complete imbeciles, but they are close.
Hmm,
Center for Disease Control vs going to a retired truck driver for medical advice :D
That's not a real hard call is it ;)
apparently not as easy as you'd think
Apparently not is right and from the CDC no less
Face MasksIn our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25) (Figure 2 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#tnF2)). One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group (33 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r33)). Two studies in university settings assessed the effectiveness of face masks for primary protection by monitoring the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among student hall residents for 5 months (9 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r9),10 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r10)). The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies (9 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r9),10 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r10)). Study designs in the 7 household studies were slightly different: 1 study provided face masks and P2 respirators for household contacts only (34 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r34)), another study evaluated face mask use as a source control for infected persons only (35 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r35)), and the remaining studies provided masks for the infected persons as well as their close contacts (11 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r11)–13 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r13),15 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r15),17 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r17)). None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group (11 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r11)–13 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r13),15 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r15),17 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r17),34 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r34),35 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r35)). Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36 (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs#r36)). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs)
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 07:12:00 AM
Quote from: Don P on November 15, 2020, 06:57:51 AM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 12:07:05 AM
I've heard hundreds of different things from the CDC. They aren't complete imbeciles, but they are close.
Hmm,
Center for Disease Control vs going to a retired truck driver for medical advice :D
That's not a real hard call is it ;)
Not much better. The CDC is, has been all over the place. I personally take little advice from hypocrites and political appointees no matter that flavor. I use common sense and intelligence to form my opines. I've presented studies and pictures to show that loose fitting masks don't do much. That lockdowns don't do much. If you want to wear a loose fitting mask, please do so. If you want to be locked down or are in agreement with such, please abide by such.
We've never had a real lockdown. Instead voluntary compliance has been the guidance. The local mega church cancelled in person services but that was and still is voluntary. I'll see the Voltaire quote and raise with one from Joe Diffie. "Lord I wanna go to heaven, but I don't wanna go tonight."
NYT's today has an article on how to act at home when yer college kids & relatives come to visit for Thanksgiving.
Watch what you wish for? is the name of that game.
Are you gonna require testing for your guests? 6' chairs? plexi panels at the table? take temps all the time? One grocery chain on TV news has ordered smaller turkeys this year.
My nearest regional university has a bit over 100 positives, the U of KY has over 2,000 positives. They monitor the sewer pipes at the U of KY dorms for positives.
60% of those who die here in KY are nursing home related and it's ramping up fast.
Health dept teams are supplanting nursing home staff who are off from covid in some areas. Not that many have enough staff to begin with pre-covid!
Of our three adult sons, one AL bunch says they're coming home, another TN bunch will not and the oldest TX, probably not.
The TN bunch has one grade school girl quarantined because she sat near a positive kid in school so back to virtual, plus Daddy stays home and falls even further behind from an extremely tough job.
several of the spikes occur a few weeks (incubation period) after a holiday like July 4th or Halloween. couple that with fatigue for mitigation. then after a spike, most jump back on the bandwagon. of course by the time the curve heads up, there are 2 more weeks at least of climbing numbers. When I went in for 4 hours the other day, all patients had covid. I wore a papr for 4 hours. otherwise, an N95 or surgical mask. we cannot ask patients to wear them and not us. The alternative would be to keep everyone outside until a room is available, and no visitors.
Let's hope for good weather on T-Day. I've been invited to my neighbor's. Eat outside around 3, then we'll crank up the skeet thrower for some socially distanced recreational activity. Watching football on tv inside probably not a good idea.
Scientific Brief: Community Use of Cloth Masks to Control the Spread of SARS-CoV-2 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html)
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 07:12:00 AMThat lockdowns don't do much.
The US hasn't done any effective lock down. That's NOT the same as "lockdowns don't work"
They have worked in Australia, they have worked in China, they have worked in NZ. Is there an economic effect? Of course, but it's demonstrably less that an ongoing and uncontrolled pandemic, because if you get the virus under control then business are able to open normally again.
Yes I know there are reasons a lockdown is problematic in the US, but again, that's not the same as "they don't work"
Quote from: Ianab on November 15, 2020, 02:10:06 PM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 07:12:00 AMThat lockdowns don't do much.
The US hasn't done any effective lock down. That's NOT the same as "lockdowns don't work"
They have worked in Australia, they have worked in China, they have worked in NZ. Is there an economic effect? Of course, but it's demonstrably less that an ongoing and uncontrolled pandemic, because if you get the virus under control then business are able to open normally again.
Yes I know there are reasons a lockdown is problematic in the US, but again, that's not the same as "they don't work"
They don't work in terms of we possibly destroyed our economy and didn't get much if anything from it, so no, they don't work.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 15, 2020, 01:18:40 PM
Scientific Brief: Community Use of Cloth Masks to Control the Spread of SARS-CoV-2 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html)
Thanks Doc for posting that, I was hoping someone wood.
My whole point with the CDC.
From 1946 to 2018 (72 years) in laboratory testing they saw no benefit in cloth masks
This spring they said don't wear them, they don't help
This summer they said wear them, they help
They released a study from July showing little benefit from them
They now say they work and have anecdotal 'testing' that shows they help
This spring and summer and even till now Doctors claim they have medications that work, but since those medications weren't 'tested' in the golden double blind studies, can't use that medicine
But we can say masks work with no double blind study......
If ya'll want to wear a loose fitting mask that clearly shows it expels 'smoke' around it like a freight train and think you're doing a lot of good, go ahead, but for me and mine, if we are going to wear a mask, it will not be one like that.
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 11:46:55 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on November 15, 2020, 01:18:40 PM
Scientific Brief: Community Use of Cloth Masks to Control the Spread of SARS-CoV-2 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html)
Thanks Doc for posting that, I was hoping someone wood.
My whole point with the CDC.
From 1946 to 2018 (72 years) in laboratory testing they saw no benefit in cloth masks
This spring they said don't wear them, they don't help
This summer they said wear them, they help
They released a study from July showing little benefit from them
They now say they work and have anecdotal 'testing' that shows they help
This spring and summer and even till now Doctors claim they have medications that work, but since those medications weren't 'tested' in the golden double blind studies, can't use that medicine
But we can say masks work with no double blind study......
If ya'll want to wear a loose fitting mask that clearly shows it expels 'smoke' around it like a freight train and think you're doing a lot of good, go ahead, but for me and mine, if we are going to wear a mask, it will not be one like that.
Gotta love this internet thing where a guy can pull all kinds of goodies off the internet to support his own PERSONAL opinions. Just like interpreting biblical context and meaning of scripture at times. Give your head a shake sedgehammer and get on to logic and common sense!
Lock downs have worked here in New Brunswick, and we closed interprovincial travel to. It was opened only to Maritime provinces this summer. Masks have worked along with the other protocols, since we have very low numbers. I don't recall even 30 cases at any time being active. Those were most all travellers bringing it in.
But I do know some folks aren't following the protocols on travel the way they are meant to be. For instance, if I'm your father, and you come here you have to self isolate 14 days. That does not mean you come to my home for them 14 days and potentially infect me if you have it. What will you think, if you bring it to my home and I die. Was the visit that important? Case in point, neighbors having their kids come and the words used are "oh we're all self isolating 14 days at the house". ::)
Quote from: donbj on November 16, 2020, 02:35:37 AM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 15, 2020, 11:46:55 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on November 15, 2020, 01:18:40 PM
Scientific Brief: Community Use of Cloth Masks to Control the Spread of SARS-CoV-2 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html)
Thanks Doc for posting that, I was hoping someone wood.
My whole point with the CDC.
From 1946 to 2018 (72 years) in laboratory testing they saw no benefit in cloth masks
This spring they said don't wear them, they don't help
This summer they said wear them, they help
They released a study from July showing little benefit from them
They now say they work and have anecdotal 'testing' that shows they help
This spring and summer and even till now Doctors claim they have medications that work, but since those medications weren't 'tested' in the golden double blind studies, can't use that medicine
But we can say masks work with no double blind study......
If ya'll want to wear a loose fitting mask that clearly shows it expels 'smoke' around it like a freight train and think you're doing a lot of good, go ahead, but for me and mine, if we are going to wear a mask, it will not be one like that.
Gotta love this internet thing where a guy can pull all kinds of goodies off the internet to support his own PERSONAL opinions. Just like interpreting biblical context and meaning of scripture at times. Give your head a shake sedgehammer and get on to logic and common sense!
No personal opines save the last comment. Them are all backed up by studies posted back through the pages.
I AM all about common sense. Common sense tells me something that leaks like a sieve ain't doing much. Maybe you have buckets that hold water when tipped upside down without lids, I don't. Mine dump all the water out.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 15, 2020, 01:18:40 PM
Scientific Brief: Community Use of Cloth Masks to Control the Spread of SARS-CoV-2 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html)
Regarding cloth masks- my latest November Smithsonian magazine has an article on bandanas, the history, etc.. Bandanas, especially black bandanas are at an all time high in sales based on mask use-I guess? I had another guess but left it out to keep things nice.
Thanks for your continued posts, Doc. Best of luck.
Alan
This ongoing discussion over the effectiveness of masks is getting old and tiresome. It reminds me of the ordinary set of pliers I always carry in the pocket of my work pants. I've had good mechanics cringe when I pull out my pliers to loosen or tighten something when my fingers don't work. They always say to always use a proper sized wrench but my response is I use the best tool available to get the job done and I can't carry a toolbox in my pocket at all times.
So guys, suck it up and quit quibbling about the masks. They are the best protection we now have available. Put them on your face when you are out and about and stop whining. :)
Indeed.
One also has to consider how the mask is handle when putting it on and taking it off. If the virus is present on the outside of the mask and you do not wash your hands and then touch your face what good did the mask do.
It's all in the way you handle the mask and keep your hands clean. Doc what procedure is used by the health care works when removing and putting on mask?
Remember the chain is only has strong has the weakest link.
we put on different ones for different levels of concern. so many are + today, that we could wear the papr 24/7. we foam in and out. with sanitizing stuff. we just started today with a monoclonal antibody infusion for people mild to mod. symptoms, but going home. I do not wear gloves but keep my hands sanitized in and out or about every 1 to 2 minutes unless I am at my desk.
Bamlanivimab
Bamlanivimab is authorized for emergency use by FDA for use in
outpatient settings to treat mild to moderate COVID-19 in adults and pediatric patients with positive results of direct SARS-CoV-2 viral testing who are 12 years of age and older weighing at least 40 kg, and who are at high risk for progressing to severe COVID-19 and/or hospitalization.
· FDA recommends giving within 10 days of symptom onset
· NOT authorized to be given to:
o Hospitalized adult or pediatric patients due to COVID-19
§ Bamlanivimab arm of the ACTIV-3 trial was stopped early.
§ Trial data suggested that bamlanivimab is unlikely to help hospitalized COVID-19 patients
o Adult or pediatric patients who require oxygen therapy due to COVID-19
o Adults or pediatric patient who require an increase in baseline oxygen flow rate due to COVID-19 in those patients on chronic oxygen therapy due to underlying non-COVID-19-related comorbidity
· High risk for progressing to severe COVID-19 and/or hospitalization is defined under EUA as patients who meet at least one of the following criteria:
o BMI ≥ 35
o Chronic kidney disease
o Diabetes
o Have immunosuppressive disease or receiving immunosuppressive treatment
o ≥ 65 years of age
o ≥ 55 years of age AND have:
§ Cardiovascular disease, or
§ Hypertension, or
§ Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease/other chronic respiratory disease
o 12-17 years of age AND have:
§ BMI ≥ 85
th percentile for their age and gender based on CDC growth charts, or
§ Sickle cell disease, or
§ Congenital or acquired heart disease, or
§ Neurodevelopmental disorders (ex. Cerebral palsy), or
§ A medical-related technological dependence, for example, tracheostomy, gastrostomy, or positive pressure ventilation (not related to COVID-19), or
§ Asthma, reactive airway or other chronic respiratory disease that requires daily medication for control.
Mechanism of Action: A neutralizing IgG1 monoclonal antibody that binds to the receptor binding domain of the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 virus, which can reduce viral replication.
Dosing: 700 mg IV in 200 mL NS given over 60 minutes, one-time dose. Patients are to be observed for an hour following the infusion.
*May be given to children 12 years of age and older weighing at least 40 kg*
Dose Adjustments: None provided for hepatic or renal adjustments. Not renally excreted or metabolized by cytochrome P450 enzymes.
Adverse Reactions: possible infusion related reactions (fever chills, nausea, headache, bronchospasm, hypotension, angioedema, throat irritation, rash including urticaria, pruritus, myalgia, dizziness), possible anaphylactic and allergic reactions have been reported during the infusion of bamlanivimab.
Nausea, diarrhea, dizziness, headache, pruritis, and vomiting were most commonly reported.
All adverse reactions are to be reported to FDA Medwatch and Lilly
Preparation:
· Remove the bamlanivimab from refrigerated storage and allow to come to room temperature for about 20 minutes before preparation.
Do not expose to direct heat.
· Inspect bamlanivimab visually for particulate matter and discoloration.
o Bamlanivimab is a clear to slightly opalescent and colorless to slightly yellow to slightly brown solution
· Gently invert vial by hand about 10 times.
Do not shake.
· Dilute bamlanivimab using a 250 mL 0.9% Sodium Chloride (NS) injection bag for intravenous infusion
o Withdraw and discard 70 mL of NS from the infusion bag
o Withdraw 20 mL of bamlanivimab from the vial
o Transfer bamlanivimab to the NS infusion bag.
o Discard any product remaining in the vial
· Gently invert IV bag by hand about 10 times.
Do not shake.
· This product is preservative-free and therefore, the diluted infusion solution should be administered immediately.
o If immediate administration is not possible, store the diluted infusion solution for up to 24 hours at refrigerated temperature (2
oC to 8
oC [36
oF to 46
oF]). Allow the infusion to come to room temperature prior to administration.
o May store the diluted infusion solution up to 7 hours at room temperature (20°C to 25°C [68°F to 77°F]).
Administration: Give via an infusion set containing a 0.22 micron filter. Give over at least 60 minutes. Clinically monitor patients during administration and for at least 1 hour after infusion is complete.
Storage: Undiluted vials are to be stored under refrigeration and protected from light.
Once diluted, can be stored for up to 24 hours at refrigerated temperature or at 7 hours at room temperature prior to administration.
Hang in there Doc. I can only imagine the feeling of being a doc and not being able to do as much as you wish you could. My wife has that feeling at times.
My 30 yr old son caught it. Said it felt like a slight head cold for a couple days. His mother 53 yrs (my x) caught it also, she ran a slight temp for a few days. Both over it now.
Study comparing strict lock downs compared with no lock downs in US Marine Corp study shows higher spread amongst lock down participats vs non lock down participats.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2029717 (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2029717)
I dont think that article says what you think it says....
That wasn't a lock down. They attended classes, shared bathrooms and ate in a mess hall together. Sounds more like a cruise ship on land.... If you read more in depth the 2 groups were treated the same, just one was tested regularly, and the other group only at the end of the period. Why was there a difference in numbers? With that size study it could be down to luck. 2 initially infected people in the study group, vs only one in the other group?
If you confine a big bunch of people together, the virus is going to spread among them if even one has the virus. That's been shown countless times, so no surprises there.
I expect the measures they took slowed the spread, and being young people, none got seriously sick. But if you are eating in a shared mess, you can't call that a "lock down".
Quote from: Ianab on November 16, 2020, 10:13:51 PM
I dont think that article says what you think it says....
That wasn't a lock down. They attended classes, shared bathrooms and ate in a mess hall together. Sounds more like a cruise ship on land.... If you read more in depth the 2 groups were treated the same, just one was tested regularly, and the other group only at the end of the period. Why was there a difference in numbers? With that size study it could be down to luck. 2 initially infected people in the study group, vs only one in the other group?
If you confine a big bunch of people together, the virus is going to spread among them if even one has the virus. That's been shown countless times, so no surprises there.
I expect the measures they took slowed the spread, and being young people, none got seriously sick. But if you are eating in a shared mess, you can't call that a "lock down".
I didn't do the study.
You ate with your family when you were locked down, correct? Size of doesn't necessarily determine if it's a lock down or not. All participants were NOT allowed to leave. Plus your missing the gest of it. Those strict conditions didn't result in slowing it down compared to those that didn't participate. Then look at new York, during their lockdown, besides those that were forced to die in old folks home, the majority of cases came from home.
In a true lock down, like they could do in a dictator ship, people who got it, could only spread it to they household so it stopped there. our cat is so far out of the bag, that contact tracing is no longer a thing for the most part. Prisons and nursing homes are hard hit. that is a locked down crowd, but they got it from the essential workers, that went out into the world everyday. so an infected person will put at risk only those people they are in close contact with. as you shrink the number, then fewer are at risk from the one positive case. you are literally changing the size of the exponent in the equation. of course 1 remains 1 no matter the exponent. but 2 to 2nd, 3rd,4th goes up quick. When Lowes is a needed resource so they tell the workers they are essential... I had a dollar store employee refuse to self quarantine after a test, as she worked at a "grocery store" and they are considered essential. she went on to tell me she was a single mom and did not get paid if she was off. Freedom comes with great responsibility. lets mitigate, just like fire or rodents, keep the numbers down.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 17, 2020, 08:02:17 AM
In a true lock down, like they could do in a dictator ship, people who got it, could only spread it to they household so it stopped there. our cat is so far out of the bag, that contact tracing is no longer a thing for the most part. Prisons and nursing homes are hard hit. that is a locked down crowd, but they got it from the essential workers, that went out into the world everyday. so an infected person will put at risk only those people they are in close contact with. as you shrink the number, then fewer are at risk from the one positive case. you are literally changing the size of the exponent in the equation. of course 1 remains 1 no matter the exponent. but 2 to 2nd, 3rd,4th goes up quick. When Lowes is a needed resource so they tell the workers they are essential... I had a dollar store employee refuse to self quarantine after a test, as she worked at a "grocery store" and they are considered essential. she went on to tell me she was a single mom and did not get paid if she was off. Freedom comes with great responsibility. lets mitigate, just like fire or rodents, keep the numbers down.
I agree doc. If you're elderly or have comorbidities I think the greatest reasonable thing one can do is social distance when one is out and about. Second wood be to wear a tight fitting mask if you can't or do both.
most of the virus enters via our mouth and nose, so the old and frail need to quarantine, and only expose themselves to a few people such as family, bringing needed food and supplies. cause they are at high risk of death if they get it. That family needs to try to not get it, and spread it to grandma. Everyone else need to use common sense wearing face covering/masks, and or socially distancing, and using hand sanitizing stuff. an occasional beer in moderation and consumed responsibly (opinion) does not hurt. My observation is most employees that got it, got is outside the ED. possibly/prob. due to the fact hand sanitizer and masks are required. using antibody treatment now, and antiviral in the hospital, and a vaccine around the corner. in 10 years we will know the facts. :)
I read that this spring if hospitalized there was 8% mortality rate. This summer was down to 2% and now is about .8%.
my daughter who is a respiratory therapist for the 2nd largest hospital in the city said the campus that was closed down last summer and was reopened this spring for covid is now adding beds. They added 8 more last week. Vast majority are minorities. Many hispanics she said. If they get really sick they are transferred back to the main hospital. She said that not as many deaths as before, but it just taxes hospital capabilities so hard, as it takes people so long to recover typically once they are in the hospital. some staffing issues, but a fair number of staff caught it earlier, so not as bad as other places.
yes mortality down due to experience treating the viral complications, and more testing, capturing the asymptomatic +. a bigger N. once on a vent, it is about 15%. not hopeless, but scary. most are above 80s. our youngest was early 50s with mean of 78 years old of those who died.
a few have asked questions in PMs which is fine. but the good questions I will answer for the group, as i am sure others have the same. The question was regarding immunity. the immune system is complex as I am sure you all appreciate. some antibodies are protective and some are not. so early on a vaccine may show a specific response to the antigen, by make a correlating antibody. basically a lock and key. so an antibody to the foot process that allows the virus to attach to human cells, insert its dna/rna to reproduce, can stop further spread by covering the attachment site. If an antibody is produced to attach to a non vital chunk of the virus, it may not be protective. months after an infection, the levels drop to potentially undetectable, but usually have memory cells that are prepared to ramp up, if the infection is encountered again. If the virus changes rapidly (mutates) the next round may not be recognized by the antibody and memory cells, and it is like a novel infection. this is why we choose about 3 antigens each year for the flu shot, anticipating what is coming to the best of our ability. if we miss, then we have a big flu season. the antibodies after covid infection are decreasing after 3 to 4 months but may have memory for the next time. the prison is seeing a few reinfections. over half the population has had it. That is another question, is if you get antibodies in a drug, does it block you developing your own immunity. we will know lots more in about 10 years!
so the extreme herd example is if we all got it on the same day, it would be gone after a month. but we would have lost 45 million folks (total guess and may be exaggerated)since there would not be anyone to care for the sick, or do research and develop drugs. you would either live or die based on nature. as sit is, it trickles along, and we have resources and time to learn from our mistakes and success. and here we are.
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 17, 2020, 07:41:24 AMSize of doesn't necessarily determine if it's a lock down or not. All participants were NOT allowed to leave. Plus your missing the gest of it. Those strict conditions didn't result in slowing it down compared to those that didn't participate.
You are still misreading. That WAS NOT a lockdown / isolation scenario, and both groups took the same basic precautions.
You had a large group of people living and working together. Sure they took some extra precautions, which I suspect were not enough to stop the spread. The Cadets that were not in the study took the same precautions, they didn't "carry on as normal", so they can't even be considered a control group.
If you lock down with ONLY family or another small group, then the virus can only spread in that "bubble". and no further. Then no one else gets infected and the outbreak dies down. Difficult to do in a military situation I admit. Further down in the report it goes into how they did genetic sequencing to confirm the A - B - C etc chain of transmission, and were able to isolate the likely means of transmission. .
Early on they decided that they would quarantine a cruise ship in Japan as there were some Covid cases on board. They tried taking all the precautions they could, like they did in the Marine cadet case, but of course LOTS of passengers and crew still got sick and some died. Because it was impossible to isolate people enough in that situation.
The thing is, you are telling us something "can't possibly work", when we have effectively done it, twice, and kept other small outbreaks contained via tracing and isolating a small number of cases. It hasn't worked in the US because it hasn't actually been done. (I know, there are reasons) Partial lock downs only temporarily slow the spread (which is at lea
The control measures worked here in NZ (and Australia) because the people were given clear and accurate information by the Govt. We knew why we were locking down, and just got on with it.
We've already had this discussion. If you're of limited exposure, in your case travel of infected, yeah, can be done. If you've had lots of travel of infected, nope, nit even close. It was to replicate a lock down found here. Where you still need to have 'some' limited exposure to live and they took as many precautions as could be done, besides quarantine.
Speaking above my pay grade here so I may not have this exactly right . . .
Neat book about epidemics talked about " diseases " that could or could not make the jump to humans from mammals/birds . What that meant was that ( some ) illnesses could not infect humans while others could. The problem becomes when an illness that resided ( " harbored " ) in birds/mammals - think like pigs/bats - mutated they become illnesses in humans. And there is another line of thinking that humans can ( sometimes ) infect mammals and birds which then can " harbor " the illness till it can be re-transmitted/mutated to susceptible humans in the future .
This back and forth between species is a major reason all prior attempts to declare ( all ) plagues conquered have failed .
As time passes we continue to learn to cure some and deal with others .
Speaking in generalities the body can frequently defeat viruses ( common cold ) and with antibiotics deal with many bacterial infections . But it takes time - and we are still afflicted with the common cold after all and which some consider a distant cousin of cv-19 .
As DocH says we'll know a lot in 10 years .
Maybe it 'll just take a while for our bodies ( with the help of vaccines/cures ? ) to adapt to cv-19 like it has with the common cold .
well put Bill.
I think lockdown means quarantine, but for a group. if some are coming and going, then the whole group gets infected. so If they kept them locked down, the whole group would get it, but not spread it to others. we do not tolerate rules as well in the US. This is why we are not the greatest generation. for Ebola, you do not leave the room, and if sick prob. not the bed until you are dead or transported. then people in shite coveralls will carry you out. thank God this is not Ebola. so the idea is for a family of four, they would not get it or they would all get it, but not spread it to other groups or families.
Avoiding the politics of the current increase in covid positives, there will be some "interesting shutdowns" very soon, as in today in my state!
Fact: This coinciding with a time when people are congregating the most over the holidays.
Fact:Today in KY there are 78,000 people who applied for un-employment back in the spring and (April is the marking point I think) who have not gotten one red cent to date. Many say on our evening news that they get hung up on and have never talked to a representative even one time as yet over the seven months of no jobs.
It's very hard to live on zilch!
Fact: Meanwhile the media is beating this covid thing into a frenzy along with others.
Lots of negative talk surround what seems to be, hopefully, a Godsend in the various vaccines soon to be in use.
Keeping a cool, calm, reasonable approach will continue to be a challenge for certain.
The Greatest Generation- raised me, mentored me, schooled me, trained me and hired me. They were more trusting, more patient, less self-centered and overall they persevered when things like gvmnt handouts and so-called brought on solutions were less likely.
Nice list of how to keep the covid critter under wraps doc!
Quote from: doc henderson on November 17, 2020, 07:55:15 PM
I think lockdown means quarantine, but for a group. if some are coming and going, then the whole group gets infected. so If they kept them locked down, the whole group would get it, but not spread it to others. we do not tolerate rules as well in the US. This is why we are not the greatest generation. for Ebola, you do not leave the room, and if sick prob. not the bed until you are dead or transported. then people in shite coveralls will carry you out. thank God this is not Ebola. so the idea is for a family of four, they would not get it or they would all get it, but not spread it to other groups or families.
Yup, quarantine is what they called it.
You know the history of the Spanish flu and what wasn't done here very well? We've never followed 'rules' very well here, that's why we're Americans. Obedient cultures rarely excel.
It's picking up around here again. Our county of under 10k is up to 23 deaths.
My grandmother (91) meets with a small group of old ladies every Monday morning. She's said all along she will not give this up. I understand.
Last Wednesday one of those old ladies was diagnosed with Covid and on Friday she died. So far Grandma just has a bit of a sore throat and light cough. Was tested a couple days ago but results aren't back yet.
A friend's son tested positive on Monday after getting sick over the weekend. He'd been staying with his father that week. Turns out his father had been sick all week but refuses to get tested. I saw the father last Thursday walking into the convenience store with no mask.
Manager of our local Subway got sick and refused to get tested but it finally prompted to staff to wear masks. Not asking customers too though.
One of the county supervisors got sick but refused testing.
It's getting to be a pretty common theme.
Alan
Quote from: alan gage on November 18, 2020, 04:35:11 PM
It's picking up around here again. Our county of under 10k is up to 23 deaths.
My grandmother (91) meets with a small group of old ladies every Monday morning. She's said all along she will not give this up. I understand.
Last Wednesday one of those old ladies was diagnosed with Covid and on Friday she died. So far Grandma just has a bit of a sore throat and light cough. Was tested a couple days ago but results aren't back yet.
A friend's son tested positive on Monday after getting sick over the weekend. He'd been staying with his father that week. Turns out his father had been sick all week but refuses to get tested. I saw the father last Thursday walking into the convenience store with no mask.
Manager of our local Subway got sick and refused to get tested but it finally prompted to staff to wear masks. Not asking customers too though.
One of the county supervisors got sick but refused testing.
It's getting to be a pretty common theme.
Alan
The last portion is because people are tired of the lockdowns. They were told for 15 days, then that got extended for 2 weeks, then it got extended all summer in many places and is still here now. Those under 65 and healthy don't need any lockdowns. Those older shouldn't be going anywhere really, but still up to them or should be.
Mask study from Denmark that has been held up for several months. While not the gold standard of testing, is was fairly robust. authors site where it's weak. it finds no statistical advantage to wearing a mask.
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817 (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817)
This article is about how difficult it actually is to work out what control measures actually work.
It's about a statistical analysis of various countries, comparing what measures were in place, vs how the virus spreading. Comparing the "R" number. That let them come up with some numbers about what what actually worked, vs what was just window dressing.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/11/trying-to-figure-out-which-policies-control-the-pandemic-best/
The actual study is linked with all the numbers etc.
They used several statistical methods, and they didn't all agree. but some control methods stood out as "effective" no matter what way you looked at the numbers.
It seems that "Masks" didn't score well. I suspect that masks + no other controls isn't very effective. Where as any place that had masks + stay at home, then the masks didn't affect things, because other more effective measures were in place.
In a really good study, all variables are well controlled except the difference between the test group, and the control group that we want to study. ideally there are large numbers. but it then becomes hard to control and account for confounding factors. With corona, it is so new, and not enough test kits (all have different reliabilities) we are basically making observations. We would need to quarantine a thousand people. and I mean in a room by themselves, with no other contact for several weeks, divide into groups of 500, put each group into a huge room with a known positive person with corona for a period of time. one group with masks, and the other without. then quarantine again for 2 weeks with no contact (food slid under a door or through a slot). could also test if only the positive person wore a mask, and if only the rest of the group wore a mask. retest everyone every 4 days or so. good luck finding volunteers or even getting this past an ethics review. prob. why it was done with military, as it became a mission and they were ordered to do so.
not available everywhere, but interesting, they are monitoring viral load in the sewer systems to access the amount in a community. so if you think this is a bunch of crap... :D
Here are some covid-19 vaccine questions:
It's in todays news that of the number of Pfizer vaccinations available by end of year 2020 @ 50 million, they say half don't go to the USA (where we paid in advance for a vaccine).
We are told they go, as they logically should to front line healthcare workers and seniors.
Google tells me that there were ~ 40 million seniors in USA 2010 (would be more now) and ~ 18 million healthcare workers.
Obvious question is- Who gets the free shots first?
Where do the other half of the Pfizer shots go that my younger family members won't get?
Who's in line for the Moderna shots?
Does Moderna have the same deal set up with the USA gvnmt?
I have some other questions in my mind but they (very heavily indeed) enter the realm of politics.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 19, 2020, 07:09:35 AM
not available everywhere, but interesting, they are monitoring viral load in the sewer systems to access the amount in a community. so if you think this is a bunch of crap... :D
They've been monitoring the U of KY dorm sewers since school started back.
I know the general concept is to protect front line workers and the vulnerable. i do not know, or know who, knows the details. I can tell you the monoclonal antibody came out, we got it over the weekend, and on Monday I had given 2 doses. sometimes things are great. availability is the issue like everything else regarding a brand new virus.
Quote from: kantuckid on November 19, 2020, 07:12:40 AM
Here are some covid-19 vaccine questions:
It's in todays news that of the number of Pfizer vaccinations available by end of year 2020 @ 50 million, they say half don't go to the USA (where we paid in advance for a vaccine).
We are told they go, as they logically should to front line healthcare workers and seniors.
Google tells me that there were ~ 40 million seniors in USA 2010 (would be more now) and ~ 18 million healthcare workers.
Obvious question is- Who gets the free shots first?
Where do the other half of the Pfizer shots go that my younger family members won't get?
Who's in line for the Moderna shots?
Does Moderna have the same deal set up with the USA gvnmt?
I have some other questions in my mind but they (very heavily indeed) enter the realm of politics.
First to get that want it.
Look at age and comorbidity group that's most effected. Start there and work backwards.
Those under 65 without comorbidities, don't really need it anyways, but of course, should be offered if available.
My mother in law might get it (65), but the rest of us as of right now, will not.
If it turns out the immunity from the virus only lasts 3 or 4 months, then even people who had it, may need/want the vaccine. Remember we may still be immune, even if the antibody levels drop. If someone gets it, but gets an infusion of antibody, they may not have a good natural immune response. saves them from the infection, but makes them vulnerable for the next time. lots to learn. The vaccine amounts are estimates, so there may be more or less.
the only reason to give it most everyone, is to shut down the spread. if the vaccine works, then it will be the unvaccinated that will be able to be a host and spread it. that would be the reason to give it to the less vulnerable. kids getting really sick is rare compared to the older folks. the rare major complication is of course a big deal if it is your kid. If we in theory (and I do not think so) can get it every 4 month over and over, then it will never go away without the vaccine. it (vaccine) will be to keep immunity until there is no host for the virus.
Quote from: kantuckid on November 19, 2020, 07:12:40 AM
Here are some covid-19 vaccine questions:
It's in todays news that of the number of Pfizer vaccinations available by end of year 2020 @ 50 million, they say half don't go to the USA (where we paid in advance for a vaccine).
We are told they go, as they logically should to front line healthcare workers and seniors.
Google tells me that there were ~ 40 million seniors in USA 2010 (would be more now) and ~ 18 million healthcare workers.
Obvious question is- Who gets the free shots first?
Where do the other half of the Pfizer shots go that my younger family members won't get?
Who's in line for the Moderna shots?
Does Moderna have the same deal set up with the USA gvnmt?
I have some other questions in my mind but they (very heavily indeed) enter the realm of politics.
here's an excerpt from a recent 11/16 interview with Dr Fauci and Bill Gates
.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI (GUEST): Yeah. It hasn't been officially determined yet. Usually health care providers, those who put themselves in harm's way of taking care of people. Then there are those who have underlying conditions, the elderly with underlying conditions particularly, that we know lead to an adverse outcome. Then, people who are essential workers in society, to make society work well. And then you have older people who may not have underlying conditions but just are risky because they're elderly. Then you get students. And then you get everybody else. There's five layers. That isn't the definitive one yet. They haven't fully decided. But if they do it the way they've done it in the past, that's the way it'll be.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 19, 2020, 08:05:36 AM
the only reason to give it most everyone, is to shut down the spread. if the vaccine works, then it will be the unvaccinated that will be able to be a host and spread it. that would be the reason to give it to the less vulnerable. kids getting really sick is rare compared to the older folks. the rare major complication is of course a big deal if it is your kid. If we in theory (and I do not think so) can get it every 4 month over and over, then it will never go away without the vaccine. it (vaccine) will be to keep immunity until there is no host for the virus.
Yes, agreed. I am not an anti vaccination person what so ever. Thought here is this is a very new vaccine and even though tested, any long term issues have not presented themselves. Those that are elderly and risk death, any long term possible negative effect is weighed against immediate benefit, vaccine wins every time.
I've wondered about the vaccine for certain, close to the end seniors such as my MIL, age 96 and been in last stage of alzheimers for several years. She and everyone who provides the in-home 24/7 care she requires is a senior themselves and IMO far more the important recipient of a covid vaccine.
Our local nursing home has zero cases in staff or residents. Seems like the staff there would be a more important vaccine recipient than the old folks?
I heard a doc on TV last night telling about how the way these new vaccines work is novel in itself and might hold promise for cancer and other maladies.
I agree. we will know a lot more in 10 years! When my docs ask what is the plan? after I answer several time I finally remind them "it is a world wide pandemic" and we are doing the best we can with what we have. we are kinda on our own, there is no one to call for help. everyone is in the same boat. it is a modern day disaster. We will survive.
Not to open a can of worms but during WWII the determinations of who's essential became a point of angry discussion. My best friends Dad, a really great guy and firefighter all his adult life, got a deferment cause he drove a hogs to market truck.
So the mechanic who keeps a nurse or doctors car in service gets the vaccine? Stuff like that will come up me thinks.
When I was in counselor training we used senarios such as who gets the lifeboat, who gets the heart transplant, etc. to supposedly learn to deal with life affecting stuff our clients might be dealing with. I remember some participants getting emotionally charged with make believe settings that I could detach myself from w/o being cold hearted either.
Covid-19 does conjure up some of that sort of emotion.
I think there some friction between our twin sons as ones family plans to visit us for Thanksgiving while the other does not. Both have a full set of grandparents involved. The ones coming from AL, he works at home totally as a CEO above his garage in an office, his wife is a stay at home Mom and one child is in pre-school the other a toddler. The ones not coming from TN are an elementary teacher and engineer office/construction project manager who's in and out lately was at home mostly until lately and 3 elementary kids. Our oldest is single now and will stay in TX for holidays.
there are the theoretical 2 code blue patients at the same time. without mitigation, this could have been worse. At FEMA with a theoretical dirty bomb, the hospital doors are locked and 50 people screaming and pounding on the doors to get in, It is really pitiful with their southern accents and all-ya-all's and all. If we let them in before de-con, we all get sick and loose the war in the long run. Some tough decisions, do you amputate the child's leg to get them out of the rubble. do you turn away anyone over 65, 75, 55... years old cause we need the medicine/beds/treatment for future generations to come and save the young people. it is the stuff that movies are made of. In stark triage you have an area for the walking wounded that will survive their injuries but are screaming in a panic for help. you also move on when you find a terribly injured person, that in a perfect setting might survive, but consume so much time and (limited) supplies that you move on to someone who will survive with your limited resources, who otherwise would not. If medical/first responders/military ever seem odd in their responses/demeanor it is because of training and education of all the possibilities. I would look at mitigating the same as rationing food and fuel around WW2. A pharmacist my wife works with, who hosted the WM Christmas party last year, at age 65 has now been on a ventilator for a week. otherwise healthy. I get inches from known + patients every day I work. I sat in the chair, and used the computer that my + doc partner used. I still have not had it to my knowledge. and I cannot socially distance and care for someone who needs a tube in their airway. so mask/papr and sanitize in and out or each room. knock on wood. if you work alone in the woods, you are good. If not, maybe we could still come in second for the greatest generation. God bless
as an aside, I did get to deliver a baby while I was at Anniston. dad about 18, mom in her sixties. BOOM! out popped a baby. I even got a special sticker. :o :o :o :) :) :). I was laughing so hard, I almost (did to be honest) cried.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 19, 2020, 09:14:11 AM
as an aside, I did get to deliver a baby while I was at Aniston. dad about 18, mom in her sixties. BOOM! out popped a baby. I even got a special sticker. :o :o :o :) :) :). I was laughing so hard, I almost (did to be honest) cried.
I just want to make sure there is no typo. Can you say that again. Dad was 18, mom was in her sixties..... Boom.
true. (scenario) it is the south! :D :D :D
I don't know if I should be more surprised at the age gap, or that the mom was still able to get pregnant in her 60's!? My Mom had her last at 47, I was her first at 19. So there's 28 years between me and my baby sister😮 She seems more like a niece to me than a sister, she's younger than 2 of my kids😊 I'm closer in age to my Dad and Mom, than I am to two of my sisters. Dad was only 17 when I was born. Looking back, I can't imagine all the things I put the guy through when he was still a kid himself🤷🏽♂️
Just the Facts ? Next we will be talking about Chickens
Here's some facts, no chickens.
We're cookin pretty good here. Last few weeks were 1.5%+ dod except 2 or 3 days.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53840/Screenshot_20201116-110232_Chrome.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1605805888)
I like chicken. :D
Took off from work for an hour this morning and just got back to find our lead tech gone. He got a call from his mother saying she was in the hospital and that she wanted to see him. He said she sounded very confused. He took off to go see her and got a call from the hospital enroute saying that she'd tested positive for Covid so no point in coming since he can't see her anyway. He eats lunch with her every day so he'll be away from work for a couple weeks.
Not quite sure what he'll do about his wife, as far as distancing, who has COPD and is regularly in and out of the emergency room with respiratory problems.
Alan
Quote from: kantuckid on November 19, 2020, 08:22:50 AMOur local nursing home has zero cases in staff or residents. Seems like the staff there would be a more important vaccine recipient than the old folks?
That would make sense as vaccinating the staff first would also protect the old folks. So yes, start there.
But then the oldies need the vaccine eventually so they can open up the rest homes and have visitors again. (Normal life)
Here in NZ I can see it going first to the border workers. Aircrew / Port Workers / Isolation Hotel staff etc as those are the folks that are occasionally getting infected here. I can also see that Vaccination will be a requirement to travel internationally for some time. The Govt can't really force vaccination on people, But they sure as heck can make it a health requirement for anyone entering the country. It's kind of a small distinction, they aren't saying you HAVE to get vaccinated, but if you don't then you wont get into the country.
The vaccine(s) being released wont instantly end the pandemic though, because it's going to take months to produce and distribute enough doses to be effective. The vaccine's release is just the light at the end of the tunnel.
At our local hospital and their outlying clinics Flu shots are mandatory every year if you want to keep your job, I think the covid vaccine will be the same.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 19, 2020, 09:14:11 AM
as an aside, I did get to deliver a baby while I was at Aniston. dad about 18, mom in her sixties. BOOM! out popped a baby. I even got a special sticker. :o :o :o :) :) :). I was laughing so hard, I almost (did to be honest) cried.
Doc, just to be clear, this was at the training center in Anniston, correct? It was a scenario, right? I sometimes regret that I did not accept the invitation to go down there for COBRA training. I was pretty pleased that I got invited. But frankly the idea of taking your final evaluation evolution with live biological agents that could mess you up, put me off just a tad. Plus my life was pretty busy at that time and I did have to wash my hair that week, so I let it go by.
I did spend 3 days with a bunch of the trainers that came up to NYS DHS with their trailers with all their toys and went thru the Mass Casualty evolution, Bomb Ident, the full boat decon evolution, and a bunch of others. Long days 8am-10pm everyday with a great bunch of instructors. SO can I assume that is where you were with this 'birth'? or did I just run headlong down the wrong road. I am pretty sure the other readers may have missed that detail either way. Frankly other than a scenario, I am having some trouble with the 60 year old mom and the 18 Y/O Dad. Help me (us) out here.
One of my DIL's is from N AL. Anniston, AL has two "n's" in the name but google says thats docs spot?
I suppose it's interesting that someone 18 was attracted to a 60 year old but truth be known it's no doubt "happened" in a bar near you, north or south? But the baby aspect is a stretch for sure.
I am 20 years older than my youngest KS brother. My wife is 20 years older than her youngest KY sister.
The best man in my wedding had a younger KS brothe, I graduated with, who worked his way through college @ Washburn in Topeka, KS after they had three kids starting in HS (this was back when girls got kicked out of school if you had a baby) and then the very month he finally got his degree and a new job with Coleman in Wichita she ran off and left him for a guy nearly 60 years old. Weird stuff happens.
For those who don't know, northern AL is the southern terminus of the Appalachian mtns.. read into that what hasn't been suggested already on docs multi generational baby.
While you hold that thought about Burt Reynolds ala Deliverance movies types of people, consider that Texans such as gritty Don Imus in the Morning TV guy fathered kids late in life to a younger mother as did New Yorker Larry King at an advanced age to a much younger Mom.
I cannot think of a young guy who hooked up with a senior mother though?
Why would law enforcement or military not be among the first recipients of a new corona virus vaccine?
In the old world before corona, many new vaccines were tested on new recruits. law enforcement folks are considered first responders.
OK. so remember, I was in Anniston, AL at FEMA training. each day we got an email telling us the breakfast would be at 06:37 and the bus would leave at 07:14 to transport to the hospital. This was an re-purposed army base with a bar, cafeteria, and dorms. We were moved in big white buses with no graphics on the outside. The dorm area had 10 foot fence and strands of barbed wire. needed your picture FEMA ID everywhere you go. the manikins could speak via microphone, and you could ask them questions, with answers coming from the control room. they breath (or stop breathing) blink their eyes ect. The folks in the scenarios were actors paid by the US government. Instructors came from all over the country. I was asked to be an instructor at the end of training. All the control room folks and actors that worked there tended to have a southern accent. We took over 40 people from Wesley and a few hospitals nearby. The training and scenarios are in the old base hospital. We also donned full PPE and Papr Ebola style, and walked around for 15 minutes outside. vitals checked before and after. They try to get you excited and throw you off your game just like a disaster. people screaming, missing legs (special cart, real person) makeup and blood. So in the middle of overwhelming casualties, and more on the way, and the power goes out, down the hallway comes a very pregnant lady on a cart with her young partner holding her hand, they roll up to me yelling about a baby. I get ready to check her, she parts her leg and a bay (doll) flies out and I catch it! BOOM. and one of the instructor comes over with a pink stork sticker and puts it on my badge. so it appears to be a recurring miracle of life. BOOM! I have attended thousands of deliveries, and this one made me tearful. good training. i thought only @Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) would go down the "really" road. The guy was over 6 feet tall and 18 looking. the mom was my age and had a blond wig, and bright red lipstick. They knew what they were doing and had a good time with it. The only docs in the group were me and a trauma surgeon. I think they enjoy trying to get the doc. I do not remember the sex of the child, but i am sure (they said) they would name the baby after me! :)
Quote from: kantuckid on November 20, 2020, 06:48:08 AM
Why would law enforcement or military not be among the first recipients of a new corona virus vaccine?
From what I know of my time in the army and elsewhere (gov) I suspect they have their own separate 'vat' being cooked up, but 'we' won't be told about it until maybe later.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 20, 2020, 08:12:30 AM
good training. i thought only @Old Greenhorn (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=42103) would go down the "really" road.
Well to be fair Doc, you only had 'Aniston' in their as a single word clue and I was pretty sure most folks didn't catch it.
I know their instructors were top notch that came to us and all of them were on various DMAT teams (one got called for deployment during our classes for some unspoken assignment and left very quickly by chopper). They brought all their trailers up to our newly growing State DHS training facility at a former airport and the director their was my a paramedic who was my first EMS instructor (CFR). It was fairly intense and the instructors could joke around a lot but not with the subject matter. They pulled no punches except when the conversation or questions danced around classified activities and then they would change the subject. We did Mark II training, the full boat Decon with all the gear, backboard conveyors, tent, etc. MCI evolution with similar external stressors, bomb scene work, and a little active shooter. That's where I got invited to COBRA and also the bomb school (in NM?). Our state guts kept trying to get me to come back for the full boat active shooter training but local politics got in the way and they (the training center) said I couldn't carry a weapon. >:( My job was to stabilize them and get them out (and be shot at along the way). :D
BOOM! :D :D :D
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 20, 2020, 08:16:22 AM
Quote from: kantuckid on November 20, 2020, 06:48:08 AM
Why would law enforcement or military not be among the first recipients of a new corona virus vaccine?
From what I know of my time in the army and elsewhere (gov) I suspect they have their own separate 'vat' being cooked up, but 'we' won't be told about it until maybe later.
Seriously? I have bridges to sell you in multiple states. EVERYONE on base in masks Sedgehammer, everyone..if they are inside or outside within 6' and not engaged in combat trials. Even outside in many circumstances. EVERYONE. Just thought you'd like to know. My colonel & admiral relatives are in masks all day. Spread on military bases is now subdued compared to general population. Hmmmm. The military responded after flubbing initial timelines by not enforcing masks, since then masks enforcement and infections and deaths plummeted. Now despite being active & working closely they have lower infections and delta vs the normal population is increasing. Why...
they follow the CDC guidelines.
So military loving but masks hating people maybe should go read up on that. Just saying. I was happy to spend my time with the govt but boy..the military can screw up the simplest things, after screwing up initially the pentagon got it's act together quickly on Covid though, kudus to them. If you love and respect the military encourage people to wear masks!
Special vat? You realize that these drugs side effects and effectiveness are based on rushed trials (military does not like this sort of thing) and they will more likely than not follow official guidance on rolling out vaccine to higher risk individuals only. Once more trial data comes in and highest risk populations have vaccine then you'll see military roll it out service wide. That will be well after high risks groups and for good reasons; they will be responsible for these servicemen and women for life and a rushed vaccine that later proves to have harmful side effects could be terrible for national security. The pentagon is not going to spend billions in their own special trials with their own special vaccine that only delay things further. No point in it. The military is good at doing things slowly, the military vaccination programs that have worked were slow slow moving programs. The cool thing about the military is that they test at scale across a pretty big population so they can actually see what impacts the vaccines have. It is something that prevents respiratory illness, I did not get one for years after getting a giant needle in my tush. Of course I was in high risks areas so my tush got shot up about once a month with various cocktails. Still got typhoid and dengue.
Re"first responders" : many are not high risks while many high risk people such as nursing home nurses, etc are not first responders but are high risk. The procedures on who gets vaccines are well thought through by scientist trying to control outbreaks.
Quote from: nativewolf on November 20, 2020, 09:07:17 AM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 20, 2020, 08:16:22 AM
Quote from: kantuckid on November 20, 2020, 06:48:08 AM
Why would law enforcement or military not be among the first recipients of a new corona virus vaccine?
From what I know of my time in the army and elsewhere (gov) I suspect they have their own separate 'vat' being cooked up, but 'we' won't be told about it until maybe later.
Seriously? I have bridges to sell you in multiple states. EVERYONE on base in masks Sedgehammer, everyone..if they are inside or outside within 6' and not engaged in combat trials. Even outside in many circumstances. EVERYONE. Just thought you'd like to know. My colonel & admiral relatives are in masks all day. Spread on military bases is now subdued compared to general population. Hmmmm. The military responded after flubbing initial timelines by not enforcing masks, since then masks enforcement and infections and deaths plummeted. Now despite being active & working closely they have lower infections and delta vs the normal population is increasing. Why...they follow the CDC guidelines.
So military loving but masks hating people maybe should go read up on that. Just saying. I was happy to spend my time with the govt but boy..the military can screw up the simplest things, after screwing up initially the pentagon got it's act together quickly on Covid though, kudus to them. If you love and respect the military encourage people to wear masks!
Special vat? You realize that these drugs side effects and effectiveness are based on rushed trials (military does not like this sort of thing) and they will more likely than not follow official guidance on rolling out vaccine to higher risk individuals only. Once more trial data comes in and highest risk populations have vaccine then you'll see military roll it out service wide. That will be well after high risks groups and for good reasons; they will be responsible for these servicemen and women for life and a rushed vaccine that later proves to have harmful side effects could be terrible for national security. The pentagon is not going to spend billions in their own special trials with their own special vaccine that only delay things further. No point in it. The military is good at doing things slowly, the military vaccination programs that have worked were slow slow moving programs. The cool thing about the military is that they test at scale across a pretty big population so they can actually see what impacts the vaccines have. It is something that prevents respiratory illness, I did not get one for years after getting a giant needle in my tush. Of course I was in high risks areas so my tush got shot up about once a month with various cocktails. Still got typhoid and dengue.
Re"first responders" : many are not high risks while many high risk people such as nursing home nurses, etc are not first responders but are high risk. The procedures on who gets vaccines are well thought through by scientist trying to control outbreaks.
Sigh..... of course not. They have separate contracts i suspect. If not for the entirety, for specialized for sure.
On a serious note. got a "not quite finished" text from my wife. she had been called in twice this week to help out. on overtime and that is a sin at WM for the pharmacists. She was scheduled to be off until after thanksgiving. My daughters BD on the 23rd. we are staying home and no guests. she had just found out that her otherwise healthy 65 y/o about to retire friend and colleague died last night on the ventilator. If you do not want to wear a mask, then stay home. We have treated 2 assaults, that were young employees who ask the wrong people if they wanted a mask, and got punched in the face. your house your rules. so follow the rules, otherwise just stay at your own house. and yes, that is my opinion.
Went to the dentist today. Me n me bride for a cleaning. The hygienist said the state told them they aren't shutting down, to power through it. Staff had the loose fitting masks on. No mandatory mask usage being enforced.
On the Thanksgiving note. We will celebrate our family one here with family tomorrow after I get back from hunting in the morning and we will go to the tree farm to get our tree and take pictures. My 2 eldest daughters will be coming. My brother just left. We are going to friends for lunch and a different friends place for supper on Thanksgiving.
Be safe! especially with people in your face. Most of my dental folk have been wearing mask, glasses and gloves for years before covid. Most medical professionals mandate it with or without a mandate. Your house your rules.
health care people have little choice but to get close to people. since the opioid crisis, pharmacists have to counsel new prescriptions and narcotics unless refused, direct with the patient. locally they fill 700 scripts per day. only about half the WM customers wear masks. Makes you wonder where my wife's friend got it.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 20, 2020, 12:04:41 PM
health care people have little choice but to get close to people. since the opioid crisis, pharmacists have to counsel new prescriptions and narcotics unless refused, direct with the patient. locally they fill 700 scripts per day. only about half the WM customers wear masks. Makes you wonder where my wife's friend got it.
Thanks doc! Since healthcare professionals have a 4x higher chance of getting it at work and their families 2x higher, were safer to go out...... :) now, those inviting us....... :o
Sister in law is a dentist, so we get it on both ends.
Interesting. Learning more bit by bit.
Up To 20% Of COVID-19 Infections Asymptomatic, Far Less Likely To Transmit Virus: Study
Until now, evidence suggested that up to half (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-3012) of COVID-19 patients are asymptomatic "silent spreaders" of the disease who were unwittingly contributing to outbreaks. Some estimates even pegged the rate of asymptomatic infections as high as 81% (https://thorax.bmj.com/content/75/8/693.full).Now, new evidence suggests that just 17% of those infected with COVID-19 will experience no symptoms, according to Nature (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03141-3?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=dfed4a7f39-briefing-dy-20201119&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-dfed4a7f39-45171750), citing a meta-analysis of 13 studies (https://jammi.utpjournals.press/doi/abs/10.3138/jammi-2020-0030) published last month which involved 21,708 people. What's more, asymptomatic individuals are 42% less likely to transmit the virus than those with symptoms.The research, spearheaded by lead author Oyungerel Byambasuren of the Institute for Evidence-Based Healthcare at Bond University in Gold Coast, Australia, defined asymptomatic people as those who showed none of the key COVID-19 sysmptoms during the entire follow-up period. The authors only included studies which followed participants for at least seven days, as evidence suggests symptoms typically develop in 7-13 days (during which people are still contagious).
Recommended Videos
Dolly Parton Donated to Moderna's COVID-19 Vaccine Research
12K
1
(https://anyclip.com/?source=logo&wid=0011r00002RYAhn_1419)
One reason that scientists want to know how frequently people without symptoms transmit the virus is because these infections largely go undetected. Testing in most countries is targeted at those with symptoms.
QuoteAs part of a large population study in Geneva, Switzerland, researchers modelled viral spread among people living together. In a manuscript posted on medRxiv this month2 (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03141-3?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=dfed4a7f39-briefing-dy-20201119&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-dfed4a7f39-45171750#ref-CR2), they report that the risk of an asymptomatic person passing the virus to others in their home is about one-quarter of the risk of transmission from a symptomatic person. -Nature (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03141-3?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=dfed4a7f39-briefing-dy-20201119&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-dfed4a7f39-45171750)
That said, the analysis acknowledges that while there is a lower risk of transmission among asymptomatics, they may still present a public health risk due to the fact that they are more likely to be out in the community vs. isolating at home, according to Switzerland-based infectious-disease specialist Andrew Azman of Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, a co-author on the study."The actual public-health burden of this massive pool of interacting 'asymptomatics' in the community probably suggests that a sizeable portion of transmission events are from asymptomatic transmissions," he said.Nature notes that other researchers disagree over the extent to which asymptomatic spread contributes to community transmission. " Byambasuren, the lead author, says that if the studies are correct that asymptomatic people are a low transmission risk, "these people are not the secret drivers of this pandemic," as they are "not coughing or sneezing as much" and are "probably not contaminating as much surfaces as other people."So, while the 'silent spread' factor appears to be far less pronounced than previously thought, and the virus kills less than 1% (https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/89750) of those infected under the age of 60, one still has approximately a 10% chance of becoming a "long hauler (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771111)" - an infected person who essentially suffers from waves of flu symptoms for months on end. Is that worth shutting down the economy over?
yes, that is why I called my barber 83 y/o vet, not to worry, but I was not coming to get a haircut, cause I do not want to be responsible for his death. so if you knew you had it would you just stay home?
Quote from: doc henderson on November 20, 2020, 12:37:19 PM
yes, that is why I called my barber 83 y/o vet, not to worry, but I was not coming to get a haircut, cause I do not want to be responsible for his death. so if you knew you had it would you just stay home?
Of course. We have stayed home 2 times from invites when me bride had a low grade temperature. They said we could come anyways, but ne bride said no. Our invitors all know where my wife and sister in law work, so they know any possible risks. Their houses, their rules i guess.
meta-analysis is great, but brings the limitations of the different studies, and to get a real number, you would have to test everyone in a group, to find the asymptomatic carriers. more symptoms equals more infectiousness, but less being less, does not mean safe. also time and contact seems to make a difference. I frankly cannot believe I have not already had it, or maybe I have and do not know it.
yes.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 20, 2020, 12:45:28 PM
meta-analysis is great, but brings the limitations of the different studies, and to get a real number, you would have to test everyone in a group, to find the asymptomatic carriers. more symptoms equals more infectiousness, but less being less, does not mean safe. also time and contact seems to make a difference. I frankly cannot believe I have not already had it, or maybe I have and do not know it.
My wife says the same thing. The 3 closest to the patients haven't caught it, but the rest in the clinic have. Go figure.
to clarify. it is up to them if they invite you. it is up to you if you go. we are all responsible for how our actions affect others. sounds like you have been safe as needed in the past.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 20, 2020, 12:37:19 PM
yes, that is why I called my barber 83 y/o vet, not to worry, but I was not coming to get a haircut, cause I do not want to be responsible for his death. so if you knew you had it would you just stay home?
That's about the same age as the barber i go to occasionally. Gives straight razor shaves also. He's still open. Said not to worry about it. He said he's lived a good life and he loves what he's doing, so he's not going to quit unless the Lord tells him he's quiting. I haven't gone in a while, prolly won't anymore anyways. Wife likes cutting mine, our boys and our daughters hair. Well, I'm not sure if she likes doing it or she likes saving the money...... but I sure do like the shave....
Quote from: doc henderson on November 20, 2020, 01:05:25 PM
to clarify. it is up to them if they invite you. it is up to you if you go. we are all responsible for how our actions affect others. sounds like you have been safe as needed in the past.
Yup, thanks. While we (well, me especially) don't follow orders well, we'll surely not go if my wife feels there's a warranted concerne.
On the news today I saw where Sweden says they made a mistake not initiating controls in the spring and they will now start.
Quote from: gspren on November 20, 2020, 03:50:31 PM
On the news today I saw where Sweden says they made a mistake not initiating controls in the spring and they will now start.
You have a link?
Only thing I can find is they'll stop serving alcohol after 10:30. Like that will stop anything.
Sweden's death per million is 23rd. Below most of Europe.
Their cases per million is 45th. Well below most of Europe
Doesn't seem they made a mistake.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 20, 2020, 12:45:28 PM
meta-analysis is great, but brings the limitations of the different studies, and to get a real number, you would have to test everyone in a group, to find the asymptomatic carriers. more symptoms equals more infectiousness, but less being less, does not mean safe. also time and contact seems to make a difference. I frankly cannot believe I have not already had it, or maybe I have and do not know it.
That's where I'm at and a lot of my cohorts here at the FD. We've been exposed so many times. Maybe I or we have already been asymptomatic and didn't know it. Especially when you consider mine and many other's allergies in the spring and fall. I take two allergy meds about 8 mos. of the year.
Pfizer applied for emergency use today and they figure Moderna will be about a week behind that. FDA is supposed to take about 3 weeks deciding to approve or not. If approved, distribution is said to start immediately, but you can imagine how slow things will go, especially in the beginning.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on November 20, 2020, 04:22:11 PMIf approved, distribution is said to start immediately, but you can imagine how slow things will go, especially in the beginning
Article I read said Pfizer had X million doses already produced and ready to go once approval was given, so they can start sending it out immediately. And they expected to be able to produce ~1 billion doses over the course of 2021. But that's got to be distributed over the world, so there wont be enough to go around initially. I assume Moderna will be in a similar situation, so 2 billion combined is better than just 1 billion.
But the vaccine being released wont cure the pandemic overnight. Probably well into next year before enough people get it (and the Nth Hemisphere summer suppresses the spread again).
Quote from: gspren on November 20, 2020, 03:50:31 PM
On the news today I saw where Sweden says they made a mistake not initiating controls in the spring and they will now start.
I heard an interview with one of their officials a few days ago saying basically the same thing.
Reuters are reporting (https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-cases/sweden-registers-record-7240-new-covid-19-cases-idUKL8N2I5472) that Sweden, whose unorthodox pandemic strategy (https://www.theguardian.com/world/audio/2020/oct/07/does-sweden-have-the-answer-to-living-with-covid-19) placed it in the global spotlight, has registered 7,240 new coronavirus cases today. It reports that the increase compared with a previous high of 5,990 daily cases recorded earlier this month.
Sweden registered 66 new deaths, taking the total to 6,406, says Reuters. Sweden's death rate per capita is several times higher than that of its Nordic neighbours but lower than some larger European countries.The piece I heard also pointed out the differences in cultures as far as following medical directives. Finland and Norway on either side of Sweden have had 374 and 305 deaths respectively compared to Sweden's 6,406.
Sounds like same article I read Ian. Yeah, it will not be an off switch, but a step in the right direction. Moderna and Pfizer are on track for that and others are probably not far behind.
Quote from: Don P on November 20, 2020, 06:01:13 PM
Quote from: gspren on November 20, 2020, 03:50:31 PM
On the news today I saw where Sweden says they made a mistake not initiating controls in the spring and they will now start.
I heard an interview with one of their officials a few days ago saying basically the same thing.
Reuters are reporting (https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden-cases/sweden-registers-record-7240-new-covid-19-cases-idUKL8N2I5472) that Sweden, whose unorthodox pandemic strategy (https://www.theguardian.com/world/audio/2020/oct/07/does-sweden-have-the-answer-to-living-with-covid-19) placed it in the global spotlight, has registered 7,240 new coronavirus cases today. It reports that the increase compared with a previous high of 5,990 daily cases recorded earlier this month.
Sweden registered 66 new deaths, taking the total to 6,406, says Reuters. Sweden's death rate per capita is several times higher than that of its Nordic neighbours but lower than some larger European countries.
The piece I heard also pointed out the differences in cultures as far as following medical directives. Finland and Norway on either side of Sweden have had 374 and 305 deaths respectively compared to Sweden's 6,406.
Yes higher than those 2 countries. Lower than most of Europe, so by any measure it can't be said was a failure. Lower than several countries with total lock downs.
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 20, 2020, 04:15:56 PMSweden's death per million is 23rd. Below most of Europe. Their cases per million is 45th. Well below most of Europe
They might be looking across the border at Finland and Norway next door. Their death rates are about 1/10.
So yes it depends who you compare with... Saying 23rd sounds OK, except there are ~180 countries on the list with lower figures.
Quote from: Ianab on November 20, 2020, 06:47:42 PM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 20, 2020, 04:15:56 PMSweden's death per million is 23rd. Below most of Europe. Their cases per million is 45th. Well below most of Europe
They might be looking across the border at Finland and Norway next door. Their death rates are about 1/10.
So yes it depends who you compare with... Saying 23rd sounds OK, except there are ~180 countries on the list with lower figures.
If you can read, i said 23rd, below most of Europe. I didn't say they are 23rd, so that's pretty good. As to the 180, many aren't modern countries or where the people have freedom, so that doesn't really mean much.
How can a person find out if they had it in the past? In Feburary my wife and I had some of the symptons and went to urgent care in flordia. Gave us some antibiotics for broncitus and sent us on. Still wondering if we had it then.
Quote from: trapper on November 20, 2020, 09:22:05 PMHow can a person find out if they had it in the past?
My local blood donation center (Vitalant) checks everyone's blood for Covid-19 antibodies. Test results posted in a few days. Not sure how long the antibodies stay around at detectable levels. They are, however, always looking so the plasma can used for people who have C19.
That is correct. I was told the red cross had stopped testing which made no sense, but my donor app says they still are. estimates are about 3 to 4 months, but the immunity isw more than just antibodies. so we do not know. i doubt you had it in Feb. as the cases were very isolated to begin with (that we know of) unless you had a contact ect. or lived in NYC as an example. can always give blood and get a free test. your doc can order it as well. still lots of other fine infectious diseases to get besides covid. :)
My doc added the covid antibody test to my usual blood work on Monday last week. Nurse called and all was good and covid came back negative.
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 20, 2020, 08:21:57 PM
Quote from: Ianab on November 20, 2020, 06:47:42 PM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 20, 2020, 04:15:56 PMSweden's death per million is 23rd. Below most of Europe. Their cases per million is 45th. Well below most of Europe
They might be looking across the border at Finland and Norway next door. Their death rates are about 1/10.
So yes it depends who you compare with... Saying 23rd sounds OK, except there are ~180 countries on the list with lower figures.
If you can read, i said 23rd, below most of Europe. I didn't say they are 23rd, so that's pretty good. As to the 180, many aren't modern countries or where the people have freedom, so that doesn't really mean much.
You are simply incorrect, Sweden is not good. Having spent time in Scandinavia I can assure you there is no difference between Norway/denmark/finland/sweeden. You would not know you were in which country if you were in a living room. Sweden has 3 comps, and they are far far below all 3. Literally stepping across a forest and having an order of magnitude greater chance to get sick. Sweden is better off than the USA, sure. But better off than neighbors, not at all..they have flunked that test. Also remember that all over Europe they are going to test sick people much more than we do because Europeans go to medical care much sooner and more often than most Americans, money does not keep a poor person away and most are urbanized and medical care is right around corner. I miss that but I'm also not sure how testing really compares across countries other than general guides. What we can say is that Sweeden's experiment was interesting but a failure. We know it was a failure because we had 3 control cases. Sweeden is the poster child for those promoting the use of masks, limited social interactions, etc.
Scandinavia in general is well ordered, strongly civic, somewhat socialist, great great health care system and medical care so they are going to have better health care than say a Spain or Italy with large number of tourists, poor social organization, poor civic culture, and weaker health care systems. Clearly culture has something to do with spread, look at Japan, Korea, Scandinavia, Taiwan, NZ, etc. Really good health care systems and strong governments, good civic organization, no mania about rights -people got on board with a goal. They have it under control as well as anyone. Even look at Canada. 1/4 the rates we have in the US.
In good news today we had our first truck driver show up with mask on, his county in WV is devastated by it he said and he's wearing a mask full time. Maybe a bit too late but good to see. He took it seriously and had not the last 4 months. We don't shake hands and if the drivers don't wear masks we do even though we are all outside and standing 6 feet apart.
Son's school shut again, very high end private school and despite huge efforts 2 students sick and now a teacher so we're doing virtual for 2 weeks. Sigh.
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) I never said it was good. I said compared to the rest of Europe it cannot be said it was a failure and it cannot. Several European countries that had/have strict lockdowns and mask mandates suffered far higher mortality rates. as to your claims it is the poster child for promoting masks, social distancing etc, I'll disagree to the exact reason why. There are several studies on here that show some things look to offer no benefit. % of deaths in elderly care facilities are about the same. Sweden did close schools and since GDP differences appear to be about the same in the Nordic countries in question, it appears people limited their interactions to some degree. Sweden's head on their response also said their appears to be some correlation between % of outbreaks with influenza in the preceding 2 years and covid 19. Those countries that suffered low outbreaks of influenza appear to have higher levels of covid. It's complicated.
There is evidence that antibodies and therefore some measure of immunity may last far longer than originally suggested. This is evidenced by the very small number of documented cases of people getting it more than once. Those cases may have been people who had a very mild case at first or even false positives on the first case.
Immunity to the Coronavirus May Last Years, New Data Hint - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html?smid=fb-share)
Apparently there was a lung cancer screening going on in Lombardy, Italy in Sept 2019 of around 1000 people. Scientists have gone back and checked the blood samples and have found the 12% had covid antibodies. Our first reports of covid were from Wuhan in Dec. This means that it was circulating in Italy probably in August.
the mitigation including masks, reduce spread. the mortality rate after you have it, depends on your body. well people can still die, but the rate is higher for elderly chronically ill such as in nursing homes. In our country, we keep folks alive on dialysis, and numerous drugs ect. so that we have a large population, "holding on by a thread". fatality from a hip fracture is often from getting pneumonia from being in bed. As pointed out, some countries enforce curfew by beating you with a stick or worse. In our country the higher population density areas got hit bad first. In the bad influenzae years, we run out of test kits, and start to assume and treat anyone with symptoms. It is so prevalent, we also feel that everyone gets it, especially if the vaccine was a miss. so I guess I could brag that we did not get hit till now, but it is nothing we did right or wrong, it is just the way the virus spreads. some countries will do what is suggested, and others will refuse even if it is mandated. if we could spread everyone out with no contact, we could have stopped this. who is going to do this. again we are trying to keep the hospital care available for those who need it and in 10 years we will know so much more. without a vaccine, we all have to get it at some point, or get it all at the same time. that is what a vaccine does, is get enough of the population immune, that it slows the spread. we can compare ourselves to other countries, but hard to draw conclusions since there are so many differences.
Quote from: Don P on November 21, 2020, 08:34:15 AM
Apparently there was a lung cancer screening going on in Lombardy, Italy in Sept 2019 of around 1000 people. Scientists have gone back and checked the blood samples and have found the 12% had covid antibodies. Our first reports of covid were from Wuhan in Dec. This means that it was circulating in Italy probably in August.
As contagious as this thing appears to be I have a very hard time in believing that. I know the tests that show you have it vary on positives, I am wondering if that shows up in the blood test they are using. That's pretty high herd and no dead in Sept, Oct, Dec. I'm gonna say, nope.
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 21, 2020, 03:46:54 AM
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) I never said it was good. I said compared to the rest of Europe it cannot be said it was a failure and it cannot. Several European countries that had/have strict lockdowns and mask mandates suffered far higher mortality rates. as to your claims it is the poster child for promoting masks, social distancing etc, I'll disagree to the exact reason why. There are several studies on here that show some things look to offer no benefit. % of deaths in elderly care facilities are about the same. Sweden did close schools and since GDP differences appear to be about the same in the Nordic countries in question, it appears people limited their interactions to some degree. Sweden's head on their response also said their appears to be some correlation between % of outbreaks with influenza in the preceding 2 years and covid 19. Those countries that suffered low outbreaks of influenza appear to have higher levels of covid. It's complicated.
Yes it is a failure. If you can't understand that ...can't help you. They failed. They had all the same culture, systems, life spans, etc that exists in Denmark, Norway and Finland. That's the comp in Europe. Not Italy..not England. England tried to ignore it under the "leadership" of the idiot that almost died of the virus (after which they tried to get serious). For purposes of understanding and contrasting Sweden's unique approach you have 3 comps. 3. Not Europe, Not the rest of the world. 3 comps. There is no point in comparing Sweden to Morocco or Turkey or Armenia or India or "europe" because they are not comparable. When you do an experiment you compare the experiment to a control. The purpose of contrasting is to make a useful observation. If you compare it to anything else you are making a useless observation.
It was a neat experiment and it failed. It is that simple. There is no other observation to make.
The US military did a similar experiment and got the same result, once they got strict they put an end to a surge in infection. CDC type guidelines save lives and slow the spread.
Quote from: nativewolf on November 21, 2020, 09:03:12 AM
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 21, 2020, 03:46:54 AM
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) I never said it was good. I said compared to the rest of Europe it cannot be said it was a failure and it cannot. Several European countries that had/have strict lockdowns and mask mandates suffered far higher mortality rates. as to your claims it is the poster child for promoting masks, social distancing etc, I'll disagree to the exact reason why. There are several studies on here that show some things look to offer no benefit. % of deaths in elderly care facilities are about the same. Sweden did close schools and since GDP differences appear to be about the same in the Nordic countries in question, it appears people limited their interactions to some degree. Sweden's head on their response also said their appears to be some correlation between % of outbreaks with influenza in the preceding 2 years and covid 19. Those countries that suffered low outbreaks of influenza appear to have higher levels of covid. It's complicated.
Yes it is a failure. If you can't understand that ...can't help you. They failed. They had all the same culture, systems, life spans, etc that exists in Denmark, Norway and Finland. That's the comp in Europe. Not Italy..not England. England tried to ignore it under the "leadership" of the idiot that almost died of the virus (after which they tried to get serious). For purposes of understanding and contrasting Sweden's unique approach you have 3 comps. 3. Not Europe, Not the rest of the world. 3 comps. There is no point in comparing Sweden to Morocco or Turkey or Armenia or India or "europe" because they are not comparable. When you do an experiment you compare the experiment to a control. The purpose of contrasting is to make a useful observation. If you compare it to anything else you are making a useless observation.
It was a neat experiment and it failed. It is that simple. There is no other observation to make.
The US military did a similar experiment and got the same result, once they got strict they put an end to a surge in infection. CDC type guidelines save lives and slow the spread.
I guess you didn't read what I posted and what Doc posted and add them together. There is no control. They aren't exact. Similar, sure. Read what Doc said about influenza and then read what the head from Sweden said. One of the reasons our death count is high, is we keep people alive far longer than most countries, so this thing has more elderly that are hanging on just barely to attack. It's not simple. It's complicated. and as to getting strict and putting it down, why did NY have such high numbers? They are nearly the strictest of all states. Why did the bulk europe with harsh lock downs suffer higher mortality rates? Why do the strict lock down states here have such high numbers and why is it spreading their fast? If it was simple, then they would also be low numbers and they aren't.
lots of benign cold causing corona viruses, but I assume they are referring to the 19 (sars 2) virus. If it is covid 19, must have not been as virulent. we have checked in our respiratory panel pcr, for 4 common cold covid viruses for years. interesting. makes you wonder about someone messing with it, but with all the dna monitoring, we should know that by now. no conspiracy theory intended.
well NYC is a high density area on a coast with a big airport. all the strict policies as you mention in England, are adopted after the crap hits the fan. with a 2 week incubation rate, the next month is on auto pilot, and the mitigation will help down the road. if you go from 1 person infecting 10 others, to each infected person infecting one other, (as in your own home) it levels out. we have a cycle of getting strict after the fact (too late) and then getting lax after things calm down, and start the cycle again. In our country pick a number, but only a percentage comply with recommendations or mandates. mitigation only works if everyone is on board. that is most of what we are talking about.
as we learn more about this virus, we modify what we do to balance the risk of the virus vs damage to society/economy ect. the 20 years olds, who did not care about mitigation to the frail 80 year olds who were scared to death and isolated for the past 8 months. we have made historic strides in a short period (for science) of time. we have a vaccine and antibody treatments. we know more about how to treat the ill. lots of the first touted treatments have been shown not effective.
Quote from: Sedgehammer on November 20, 2020, 04:15:56 PMIf you can read,
Guess what. That was uncalled for and it will cost you.
Link to a news article today about a local woman's "long covid". She was a fit (marathon running fit) 32 year old, had a good job and was studying for a PhD. She picked up a "mild" case while returning from overseas, didn't need hospital treatment etc. After 8 months she's pleased to have recovered enough to do the dishes!!.
In for the long haul: eight months of illness for 'long Covid' sufferer | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300155116/in-for-the-long-haul-eight-months-of-illness-for-long-covid-sufferer)
Exact symptoms / severity / duration are all variable, but they have found ~90 cases here in NZ, out of 2,000 infections. But it seems it can cause symptoms similar to a traumatic brain injury. (Fatigue / Memory / "Brain Fog").
CDC website about the "long covid".
Long-Term Effects of COVID-19 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects.html)
QuoteThe long-term significance of these effects is not yet known. CDC will continue active investigation and provide updates as new data emerge, which can inform COVID-19 clinical care as well as the public health response to COVID-19.
QuoteThe best way to prevent these long-term complications is to prevent COVID-19.
So it's not simply the risk of dying we worry about. A significant number of people are suffering long term effects.
Doc, I heard the Italy report on "The People's Pharmacy" this morning.
Here is a Reuter's link;
Coronavirus emerged in Italy earlier than thought, Italian study shows | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSL1N2I10EO)
and a slightly longer article from something that looks like Europe;
COVID-19 was spreading in Italy by September 2019, study indicates - CGTN (https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-11-17/COVID-19-was-spreading-in-Italy-by-September-2019-study-indicates-VuSqUttP8s/index.html)
I'm not pushing a theory it was just interesting "news".
I suspect as people look back on this from the distance of time our response and that of places like Sweden will be taught as a lesson in hubris.
The virus was obviously spreading in the Wuhan area for "some" time before it was recognised as "novel", because in 95% of cases the symptoms can be the same as any of dozens of other respiratory viruses. So it's not inconceivable that it had spread beyond Wuhan, as all it would take is one person to carry it.
There were no tests for it at that time, as it wasn't even known as a "thing", so a small upswing in "flu" cases wouldn't have rung any alarm bells, and some people even die from the flu, so a few deaths wouldn't seem unusual either. So the new virus could have been able to get a foothold in the population before anyone knew it existed.
Genetic testing of the various strains of the virus has shown the "Italian" strain has a subtle genetic mutation from the original "Chinese" one, suggesting it had been spreading from one early case (that picked up the change). With regard to the US out break, the initial infections in Seattle etc were genetically identical to the original Chinese virus, suggesting the infections came directly from there. The New York infections started the same as the Italian version, suggesting that the infection came via there.
There are now dozens of slightly different strains, which does help in tracking how cases are being spread. That's one thing being used to track the sporadic outbreaks here. If someone catches the virus from casual contact, they check the genetic signature of the new patient's virus. If it's the same, then it's safe to assume they are part of that cluster of infections, and the trace / isolate continues until the chain is shut down. But if they have a different strain, that means there is another unrelated and unknown cluster of infections, and that's MUCH more concerning as no one knows how far it's already spread.
But that level of response is only possible if you get the numbers low enough.
More facts. Remember this from April 29, 2020?
Remdesivir shows promising results for coronavirus, Fauci says (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/coronavirus-drug-remdesivir-shows-promise-large-trial-n1195171)
At the time this came out, my scientist son and I questioned the results because in the fine print in the study it said the differences in the study groups were not stastically significant. Huh?
What is the status today? (November 19, 2020)
WHO group recommends against using remdesivir to treat hospitalized Covid-19 patients (https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/19/who-recommends-against-remdesivir-covid-19/)
"The evidence [suggests] no important effect on mortality, need for mechanical ventilation, time to clinical improvement, and other patient-important outcomes," the WHO's group wrote. Members added: "The panel interpreted the evidence as not proving that remdesivir is ineffective; rather, there is no evidence based on currently available data that it does improve patient-important outcomes."
Woops says Dr. Fauci again. It's not ineffective, it just doesn't work. ::)
And then there is Hydroxychloroquine. (November 19, 2020)
COVID Doc Says Hydroxychloroquine 'Highly Effective' and Fears Are Overblown - Now FDA Chief Admits It Might Help (https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/health/2020/july/covid-doc-says-hydroxychloroquine-highly-effective-and-fears-are-overblown-now-fda-chief-admits-it-might-help-nbsp)
How can we ever trust the science again? Trump got us two vaccines in record time and he recommended Hydroxychloroquine, perhaps he is more trustworthy? Oops, I wasn't supposed to say that here but it is a fact.
So with all the talk here, I missed the symptoms of the thing, Like if I feel a sore throat coming on should I get a test?
any virus can give you sore throat along with other stuff. loss of taste and smell seems to be specific, but not always present. If you have a sore throat, you will be sent home to quarantine even if positive. if at high risk you might get the antibody. the big deal is if you are getting sob, confused, chest pain ect. often a sign of significant disease, but now covid goes to the top of the list. diarrhea also is a common finding with covid, as well as many other viruses.
Just a glimpse at how Contact tracing works.
QuoteNovember quarantine cluster
What is known as the November quarantine cluster stems from a Defence Force worker (Case A) who was stationed at Auckland's quarantine facility, Jet Park.
The cluster also includes Cases B, C, D, E, and now F.
Case B is a civilian Defence Force worker from Wellington who helped run a workshop on Army values and Case C is another Defence Force civilian.
Case D is an AUT student who tested positive for the virus on November 12 after Case A spent time in the city near where she lives and works while infectious the day after the workshop, November 5.
Case D infected a neighbour at 106 Vincent St apartments, known as Case E.
Case "F" is a close contact of "B", and was already under isolation.
But that shows how one person can get infected, go about their daily business and unknowingly spread the virus to 3 others. If those individuals know they are exposed, then it's possible to shut down the spread, without a widespread lock down. The small number of cases allows that level of tracing, down to the RNA of the virus in each patient.
But it shows how precarious the situation is trying to keep the virus out. Today's virus update is 9 new cases.
QuoteThe new cases were recent returnees from France, Netherlands, Dubai, United States, United Kingdom, Bangladesh, Spain and Italy and all were in quarantine facilities in Auckland and Christchurch.
On a brighter note. The first Cruise ship has now been cleared to operate. It arrived from Russia with the crew quarantining on the voyage, then being quarantined again and tested once they got here. The cruises are around NZ and to some of the remote Islands closer to Antarctica. (the ship is ice reinforced) As the crew are now cleared, and they are only taking NZ passengers to and from NZ, it's been OK'd.
Just a reminder, this IS NOT the political thread about the pandemic. Please keep it that way :)
So the best thing to do, If you get sick get tested?
the hard part is to define "sick". your and my definition is different. if you go to a respiratory clinic, it is a hot zone. if you test positive and have co-morbidities, you may get the monoclonal antibody, if they have it in your area. If you are asymptomatic, and you do not want to get it, stay home. If not feeling well testing is an option. If you are "sick" get tested and you may need to go to ED so you can get other lab and x-ray, test your oxygen level. at least at this point we have treatment for people at risk who test positive, but do not need to be in the hospital (as of one week ago) so yes get tested. before that, we would tell you to quarantine and stay home.
@Peter Drouin (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=12511) I hope I answered your question, but there are pros and cons to everything, and I try to make sure the answer is written for everyone who is reading. I have to be careful not to state it in a way that could lead someone to a wrong choice. :)
Every light board on Ma. highways say's, " not feeling well get tested". Every place doing testing is over loaded with cars and people wanting to be tested. Lot of work for the people doing the work, must make for a long day.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 22, 2020, 08:37:49 AM
@Peter Drouin (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=12511) I hope I answered your question, but there are pros and cons to everything, and I try to make sure the answer is written for everyone who is reading. I have to be careful not to state it in a way that could lead someone to a wrong choice. :)
Thanks for your steady hand on the tiller Doc. Isn't it true more knowledge is gained daily? We call ourselves Sapiens, or is that just hubris on our part? Rhetorical question.
Right now Georgia is in pretty good shape compared to states that are a lot worse off than we are. Reminds me of a Junior Samples quote "Lu Ann, you don't sweat much for a fat girl."
we have people at the ed everyday, as they were told to get tested by an employer. if we are busy, they are interfering with really sick people potentially. the employer should get an agreement with a local clinic, and not send them to the ed. many times the employee chooses the ed over a clinic when they find out the test results will take 5 days. ours too if asymptomatic. it is funny how the asymptomatic suddenly develop cough or taste or fever symptoms when they find out we send the test on asymptomatic folks to the state. we are doing ok, but it is taking a rapid test kit away from a symptomatic pt. the clinic across the street is seeing 180 folks a day in the respiratory (covid) clinic. even they occasionally get paranoid and send a pt. who has already been accessed to not need to be in the hospital. i have the director on speed dial as we can not handle them doing it on a repeated basis, and we cannot turn someone away without a medical screening exam (seen by the provider). It takes a while to figure out they have just come from the clinic, all the same paperwork and discharge process. almost the same amount of time and effort on the part of the doc/midlevel/nurse/tech/receptionist.
Well, I got up this morning chest tight my balance is off some. My taste is ok. Beer is good for lunch with a sandwich. I'm moving firewood today.
I'm not tired.
If it's ok with Jeff, I'll let you all know how I make out with a test If I can get one.
Baybe I will rezerve a veltorlater too. :D :D :D :D
See doc I don't care. Without Ann Life is no fun for me anymore.
In 12 days It will 2 years she's gone. :( smiley_love
Sorry Peter😥
sorry for the sad milestone, but hope you do well. despite the heartbreak.
Peter;
You're getting good advice from the folks here - follow it the best you can.
We've never met, but imagination and your posts make your out to be a hardworking, clever and crusty New Englander. A tough nut.
I'm guessing that your Anne would not expect you to not look for the 'fun' in life anymore. I'm guessing that she'd want to see you carrying on with your normal 'use it or lose it' style.
Hang in there, keep your chin up, try to carry on.
You've got fans out here!
i would have a beer for lunch with you, but I have to work tonight. i will go in early as one of my partners, and friend of 20 years, has to go to KC in the am, as his adult son needs a heart transplant, and they have an appointment. 8 hours bottle to throttle... smiley_beertoast or as a navy man once put it, "no drinking within 50 feet of the aircraft, or smoking within 8 hours of flight". :-\ :-X :o :) :) :)
Just in case some of you were thinking that my comments to Peter were coming from a virus free zone in La-La Land, thats just not the case.
Winnipeg is in lockdown 'Code Red' mode for the foreseeable.
That means that any travel, driving, or activity has to be related to an essential service.
People are expected to stay at home, and with the people they co-habitate with.
Virus deniers are catching $1,100.00 fines for putting other peoples' safety at risk.
The death rates have caused public officials to ponder the use of hockey (cancelled) rinks as temporary morgues.
All this will mess with a strong person's attitude and perspective on life.
.
Folks: It's time to connect with the people we care about, and to show some support and respect.
Agreed Andries. Throw politics and personal opimions aside and do what is asked of us, because we trust in what we are being told.
Hang in there Peter 👍
Started feeling some little sniffles late yesterday afternoon and then some tightness my throat in the evening (not like I can't breath, just uncomfortable to swallow). Feel the same this morning. So I'm avoiding everyone today and tomorrow I think I'll skip work (ouch, don't twist my arm) and see if I can get tested to be sure one way or the other.
No known exposures but in the last week it seems every time I turn around a relative, friend, or friend of a friend has it.
Alan
There have been some demonstrations in MB re individuals' rights under the Canadian Rights and Freedoms Charter.
That prompted some letters to the editor in the local newspaper:
Speaking of masks, there was a lady who wrote a letter to the editor ( one of the best parts of the paper in my opinion )recently telling the mask complainers to "suck it up" , as the bra she wears daily is way more uncomfortable than a mask, and another friend sent an email saying that people with big noses are NOT excused from wearing masks, because he still wears underwear.
:D :D :D :D :D :D
On another note, My neighbor, whom I and the othe old farts on the road have coffee with every Tuesday at his house, contracted Covid. He was pretty miserable for a couple of weeks but is now clear. None of the rest of us developed any symptoms. He's ready to start the Tuesday morning coffee meetings back up now but I'm scared to go even though I feel we are safe to do so.
our nursing director texted me yesterday, and states she is +. she will stay home, but I can call or text as needed. she is younger than me, but also is recovering from cancer treatment. Lee I think it is fine to use common sense. just so no one is blatantly denying that it is a deal. when all are well, go back. it is a testament that no one has got it yet ( 2 week incubation and possibly asymptomatic). zoom is better than nothing! :P
We are zoomed and skyped out... ::)
Does anyone know where I guy can get the test online
by the box full?
there is a saliva test your Dr. can give a script for, and you spit in it. call your health department. how old (young) are you. some insurance will send a kit to your home. or health department may come out, or send home health.
the better tests require machines, the rapid in lab, and negatives sent to the state. State health dept. to county here. so each state and county may be different
Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 22, 2020, 08:31:41 PM
Does anyone know where I guy can get the test online
by the box full?
Here
Home Coronavirus Test. A Safe COVID-19 Testing Kit (https://www.letsgetchecked.com/us/en/home-coronavirus-test/)
I have a United Health Care Medicare Advantage plan and they sent me the test kit along with a thermometer and a dose of Tamiflu for free. It's a program called Well At Home. If I think I'm sick I'm supposed to call into one of their doctors and they will instruct me how to do the test.
No idea if its a good test or not. I've had UHC for a few years and happy with there service in the past. I always have the option to go to my Doctor or any Doctor.
I have decided to go ahead and go to the coffee bunch on Tuesday. Good or bad, I don't know. We are also going to have Thanksgiving with our family that all live nearby. Kickers are the son that travels for his job and SIL that works in town. We have a close friend that is staying with us that also works in town, so I guess we are not totally isolated anyway. I suppose these are not 'Just The Facts', but are the facts as related to what we are doing right now.
use some common sense. if someone gets sick prior, they should stay home. you are sensible people. I came to work, and just felt a little tired and normal temp so got the 2 swabs. prelim negative. it will go to the state. I am surrounded by it. Of 9 employee tests today 8 were positive. i appear to have stayed safe just washing hands, wearing a mask and distancing. I still occasionally shake hands, but not as a routine like I used to. never know what the other person feels is safe.
My son who was planning to host Thanksgiving has now had to cancel. Seems his wife's side of the family has some positives and she was in contact with them though she has tested negative. Seems the problem with the spread is just like the cold and flu. There have been some in the exposure that have felt sick and still went to work the first day and did not take the symptoms seriously. Now we find that others have gone to work when they should not have and may have caused the spread.
So I believe this spread is not so much about masks or not. It's all about being the macho guy and ignoring first signs of infection and still going out and about to work and shopping.
Doc is right. Stay at home if you have the slightest signs of infections.
To quote Tiny Tim from Dickens, A Christmas Carol, "God bless us, everyone."
Thanks, Larry. Doc I'm 66 and diabetic strong as a bull and just as hard-headed. :D :D ;)
Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 23, 2020, 05:57:35 AM
Thanks, Larry. Doc I'm 66 and diabetic strong as a bull and just as hard-headed. :D :D ;)
Good luck Peter.
so last night I had a nasal swab x 2 and it did feel like a match stick that spontaneously ignited at the back of my nose. swab was presumptive negative so the second one, will go to the state for confirmation of the neg. so at our weekly team meeting this am, it was announced that not many antibody tests were being used, and were going to outdate, so they were available to staff. My antibody test is also negative. so despite sticking a tube down covid patients airways for a living, using PPE, I have so far remained negative on both. half our nurse directors are out with covid, but most got it outside the hospital when they were being less careful/not using sanitizer/mask ect. everyone, just do what you are supposed to. be safe. Peter, let us know where you find a test. hope you are doing well.
I'm glad you're still clear, Doc. It's pretty amazing really!
Here is a local hospital's Coronavirus report. The Medical Center is a teaching hospital in Hershey PA. St. Joseph's is in Lancaster county PA. Holy Spirit is in Camp Hill PA, which is across the Susquehanna River from the state capital, Harrisburg PA.
(https://www.pennstatehealth.org/sites/default/files/inline-images/HEA-15547-20-134218-COVID-19-Update-_w_Holy-Spirit_1123-1%3DFinal.png)
Qantas (Australia's main Airline) have come out and said that once the vaccines are commonly available you will need to have one before you take an International flight with them.
Qantas CEO tells international flyers: no Covid vaccination, no travel | Stuff.co.nz (https://i.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/123485691/qantas-ceo-tells-international-flyers-no-covid-vaccination-no-travel)
I would expect that other airlines and Govts will follow suit with similar rules.
Called my doc today. She said I was in the [keep an eye on groop] :D
When I told her what I was feeling. Told me GET Your butt down here.
Had the test done 2 hrs later will know in 3 to 5 days.
Rain hard here today, sharpen blades the rest of the day.
Have $2000 of lumber going out tomorrow.
You know doc I have never had a flu shot ever. ;)
With all the protection you do and you don't have it, is prof the protection works. smiley_thumbsup
?? for you doc, I gargle with original Listerine will whisky work just as good? :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;)
It was a lesson to learn that vets that were alcoholics that could not get alcohol, would drink the old fashioned Listerine. had an old guy tell me only had 2 beers. alcohol level came back 529 and he did not seem drunk. drank everyday. told him it had to be more beers. he really did not seem to care enough to lie about it. nice guy. so I ask what kind. "Mule kicker 44" I said what does the name mean. I thought it must be really strong. He said cause it is 44 ounces each can. :D. if the goal is fresh breath stick with Listerine, it may boast "alcohol free". for sanitation and relaxing, go with ethanol. (whiskey).
Regarding finding a place to be tested:
Not sure what other states are doing but Iowa has a "Test Iowa" website where you can give them your information, symptoms (if any), and answer some questions. Then they tell you weather or not you qualify for testing. I qualified so they gave me a list of mobile test stations and hospitals that were participating in the program. You choose a location and they have you print out a unique code (or use your phone) that you need to give them when you're tested.
I had to drive about 15 miles to a participating hospital and showed up 15 minutes after they opened to find about 25 people in line. Most people took under a minute in/out for testing so it went pretty quickly.
The stick up my nose wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Said I'll have results in a couple days. Until then I'll be working on firewood and trimming trees instead of going to work. I'm actually hoping it comes back positive so I can take off next week too. :)
Alan
My newspapers today here in KY say the testing is packed in the cities due to the current surge in positives & hospitalizations. In my rural county we have no testing now or ever. We either drive ~ 60k RT to one town with a hospital or drugstores or ~ 50k RT to another with same services. I've been tested in both spots for medical procedures, not symptoms.
I have no idea what the parameters are of providing testing sites but what we do have here a couple miles from my house is a very expensive, modern health dept., with nary a client or much of anything that goes on as far as I can tell covid wise. They do provide some in school programs and community stuff such as lactating mothers(my SIL did provide several of both those programs).
Are there rural, covid-19 testing sites across the USA, or not?
A positive brings more concern to me than getting a week or so off? ;D Being a senior who's said to be healthy but a borderline asthmatic it might be my end game?
Quote from: Brian_Rhoad on November 23, 2020, 01:03:47 PM
Here is a local hospital's Coronavirus report. The Medical Center is a teaching hospital in Hershey PA. St. Joseph's is in Lancaster county PA. Holy Spirit is in Camp Hill PA, which is across the Susquehanna River from the state capital, Harrisburg PA.
(https://www.pennstatehealth.org/sites/default/files/inline-images/HEA-15547-20-134218-COVID-19-Update-_w_Holy-Spirit_1123-1%3DFinal.png)
Brian, Very informative. So just over 5000 people have tested positive, of those 88 have died, so just under 2%.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 23, 2020, 06:36:11 PM
It was a lesson to learn that vets that were alcoholics that could not get alcohol, would drink the old fashioned Listerine. had an old guy tell me only had 2 beers. alcohol level came back 529 and he did not seem drunk. drank everyday. told him it had to be more beers. he really did not seem to care enough to lie about it. nice guy. so I ask what kind. "Mule kicker 44" I said what does the name mean. I thought it must be really strong. He said cause it is 44 ounces each can. :D. if the goal is fresh breath stick with Listerine, it may boast "alcohol free". for sanitation and relaxing, go with ethanol. (whiskey).
Doc, BAC .529? Most I've ever seen was a .46.That guy was involved in a minor fender bender but because the other driver smelled alcohol I had to put him on the box. I was amazed as he certainly didn't seem lit up at all but he did have that professional drinker scent.
At that time I wasn't trusting our machine so I took him to the State Police barracks.They were doubtful too so I had blood drawn at the ER to confirm.
So much for .40 meaning death.
It made the record board at University of Kansas, School of Medicine back in 1987. he was animated and friendly, but other than an outgoing personality, could not say he was impaired.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-24/sweden-says-it-sees-no-signs-herd-immunity-is-stopping-the-virus?srnd=premium (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-24/sweden-says-it-sees-no-signs-herd-immunity-is-stopping-the-virus?srnd=premium)
Takeaway, Sweden has failed, herd immunity not helping yet so Sweden has started limiting gatherings etc. death rates soared but I think a misprint in article , confusing infection and death
Tammy is off school until at least Monday. 3 bus drivers of the 7 are now in quarantine, one of the 3 tested positive and was all over the bus garage day before yesterday before the test. Tammy follows protocol so hopefully she was able to avoid it. We have had two neighbor families get it. It is here. This with all of the mandates that are on us by our pos governor.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 24, 2020, 08:39:25 AM
It made the record board at University of Kansas, School of Medicine back in 1987. he was animated and friendly, but other than an outgoing personality, could not say he was impaired.
That's the way this guy was. Turned out that was his 5th DWI arrest. Still had a license although it was about 40 years ago and things were different than now.
Quote from: Jeff on November 24, 2020, 11:03:47 AM
Tammy is off school until at least Monday. 3 bus drivers of the 7 are now in quarantine, one of the 3 tested positive and was all over the bus garage day before yesterday before the test. Tammy follows protocol so hopefully she was able to avoid it. We have had two neighbor families get it. It is here. This with all of the mandates that are on us by our pos governor.
Stay well Tammy! Lots of people just won't follow protocols and thus spread can't get contained. EU has had two waves now and as soon as they lock down the rates dive. Oh well..vaccines can't get here fast enough.
Quote from: Raider Bill on November 24, 2020, 08:32:08 AM
he did have that professional drinker scent.
What ?
:D :D
Peter: I'm with you, same age and never ever had a flu shot. And honestly, not likely to get a vaccine. My pessimism says it will be a different strain next year, needing a different vaccine. We have yet to cure the common cold. And whisky works! Remember the "take two fingers worth in a glass and go to bed"
While its true we can achieve herd immunity to this virus with 30% of folks not getting the vaccine thereby reducing it to less than a pandemic, we cannot achieve it if too many do not get it. It can be said that those getting the virus and gaining immunity are contributing to the herd immunity, but at what cost to some of them. Herd immunity is what eradicated polio. I will be getting the vaccine as soon as it is offered to me.
Ok Doc so I have a question. If someone has had COVID-19 and recovered will they still get or need the vaccine? I have more questions but will wait until later.
Thanks,
Brent
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on November 24, 2020, 05:47:05 PM
While its true we can achieve herd immunity to this virus with 30% of folks not getting the vaccine thereby reducing it to less than a pandemic, we cannot achieve it if too many do not get it. It can be said that those getting the virus and gaining immunity are contributing to the herd immunity, but at what cost to some of them. Herd immunity is what eradicated polio. I will be getting the vaccine as soon as it is offered to me.
And the better the herd immunity, the faster the virus will be suppressed, and we can all get back to a more normal life. At 60% the virus gradually dies out. At 80% (90% of people getting a 90% effective shot) the virus will be shut down much faster.
It's also expected that even cases where the vaccine doesn't prevent the disease, it should make it "milder" as your immune system has "some" head start on fighting off the virus. None of the small number vaccine testers that did catch the virus got it seriously, although the numbers aren't enough to confirm this. It may have just been chance at this point.
Lastly there will be a % of people that can't get the shot for actual medical reasons. They are also the ones most likely to die. Best way to protect them is for everyone else to become immune, then they no longer get exposed to the virus.
We are still planning on travelling to the Islands next year, and I expect being vaccinated will be a requirement of getting on the plane. Cook Islands have had zero cases so far, and will want to keep it that way.
we do not know. I would say not, if the antigen used to make the vaccine is the same as the one the body reacts to. a natural immunity to the virus may produce thousands of antibodies reacting to different components. and just producing antibodies to and man made vaccine may not slow or stop the virus, unless it destroys the viral cell, or stops attachment to the host cells. we have monoclonal antibodies that bypass natural immunity and stop the attachment of the virus to the host cell to insert genetic material to make new viruses. we do not know that if you are positive and get the monoclonal antibody, then it may reduce natural immunity. only time will tell. they will need to test and see if the virus produces and long lasting immunity, then vaccine may not be needed, but then everyone may need tested prior to the vaccine. and if the immunity only lasts 6 months. will it be boosted by the vaccine. we need everyone to get it in the same time frame so the number of hosts can be reduced to nil. good question and one that will need to be decided on even if they do not have the full answer at the time.
Quote from: DbltreeBelgians on November 24, 2020, 07:18:09 PM
Ok Doc so I have a question. If someone has had COVID-19 and recovered will they still get or need the vaccine? I have more questions but will wait until later.
Thanks,
Brent
Not the Doc, but I think that's "unclear". There have been cases of people getting re-infected, and there are also questions about how long the effect of the vaccine will last.
But that also brings the herd immunity up. Once enough people have either had the shots (or recovered from the virus) then it shouldn't be actively circulating. So it's less important if your immunity does drop off over time. Same way as it only being 90% effective doesn't mean it wont work.
But of course no one has been able to study long term resistance yet because the virus has only been a "thing" for ~12 months. It's possible people will need a booster shot, or a new vaccine will be needed for a different strain, or a whole new virus could jump out of the woodwork.
So a lot of things aren't completely clear yet.
As few documented cases as there are, with considering the millions that have had it, the handfull of re-infections must be either false positives, folks who had a very mild case at first or even folks who were retested too soon after recovering. Its a dog example, but it makes the point. When a dog gets heartworm, it continues to test positive for heartworm for a long time after recovering.
Thank you gentlemen. I have other questions but I'll hold off for now. Just loaded my elderly handicapped father in a squad and transported him to the hospital. He's lived in my home since I flew to Florida during hurricane Irma and drove him and my mom to Ohio. He tested positive and pneumonia in both lungs. My wife is feeling rough and I have minor symptoms. Family doc ordered test for both of us after doing a Tele-med call with my dad and requesting he go to the ER. He has COPD and emphysema. Old school firefighter who had smoked since he was a teen and quit about 15 or 20 years ago but the damages were done. He had made several trips by public transport to doctors visits in the past few weeks so we're wondering if that's where all this may have started.
Mom passed in June from COPD and emphysema. She tested negative. I held her hand and watched her labor to take he last breath. At least Hospice was here to make her comfortable.
Dad misses her terribly and has told me he's ready to cash in his chips.
Hard to hear him say that.
More later, I'm kinda bummed.
Brent
that is a lot of loss Brent. sorry to hear. hope for your dad.
Thank you sir.
I was going to pm you earlier when I saw you were online but opted not too. You have enough on your plate. I appreciate you answering everyone's questions on this thread.
I'm pretty sure of the result of my test whenever they do it. Probably tomorrow. I have a slight headache, a little cough and in the last few hours I've noticed my taste is mostly gone. Guess I'm gonna lose a little weight. No fun eating when ya can't taste anything.
Brent
God bless. please reach out if I can help in any way. i think all the patients I have tested with loss of taste and smell, have tested +.
I'm sorry to hear all of that Brent. That's a lot for one guy to take. Sorry for the loss of your mom and I hope your dad recovers. Of course take care of yourself. I have great hope that the coming vaccines will be the beginning of the end to all this.
That's what I'm banking on, Doc. I have had a couple periods of scratchy throat and chest congestion these past months, but I have never lost my sense of taste or smell. Fever is the easiest sign to detect, but clearly its not always present.
fever is fairly non specific, but taste and smell... I have had several symptoms off and on, and you lay awake at night wondering, but I am neg. for the antigen and antibodies. so do not have it, and have not had it per se.
Kinda the reason for my question on post 1174 in regards to the vaccine.
I had a slight scratchy throat a couple days ago but blamed it on dryness in the house. Wishful thinking. Lol. I've had no fever. Actually been low at around 96.8 to 97.1
Now my bride, that's a different story. She was at 101.1, same as my dad.
We'll just ride out the storm and see how things go.
Thanks for the kind words. You all are great.
Brent
Brent, I am sorry you have to walk the path you are on. I walked a similar path just a few years ago and it took everything I had and all the love I could muster. It was worth the effort, but it was very difficult at the time though and no regrets, but I admit it took a lot more out of me than I realized at the time and I neglected my own well being more that I should have. I tell you this because you need to take care of yourself first so that you can take care of the ones you love in the best way you can. I held my Dad when he took his last breath. It was a long road, and like your Dad, he said he was ready (I was not 'ready', but I was prepared, I miss him every day).
I truly wish you all the strength you require and a little extra. I cannot imagine going through the road we traveled with a pandemic thrown on top. I don't know if I could have handled that. My heart goes out to you. You have a place here to unload anytime you need it.
Well, this morning we had our first documented case of one of our ff's testing positive. He had just a little throat tickle, but got tested because of family exposures. Now 2/3 of his shift has to quarantine for minimum of 5 days. After 5 days they can get a test and return to work if negative. I have to fill lots of OT until then. There is the possibility we will have to close a firehouse due to staffing if I can't fill the time. We already have 3 guys out on disability, so its gonna be difficult. We only have 30 shift guys and this will mean that a total of 11 out of 30 are unable to work.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 24, 2020, 09:22:46 PM
I have had several symptoms off and on, and you lay awake at night wondering,
It's hard to know what the right thing is to do. My symptoms are very light. So much so that I don't really notice unless I think about it. Started 4 days ago on saturday. Don't exactly match up with covid symptoms. Do you just carry on or get tested?
Knowing we were very slow at work and that there would be no pressure for me to come in I got tested Monday and am quaranteening until I see a negative test. I see enough people during the course of a work day, many of them older, that I didn't want to chance passing it along.
Would of been a tougher decision if I couldn't afford to take time off work, whether because of finances or work pressure.
In the mean time I'm enjoying my quarantine. Splitting lots of wood and this afternoon will rent a boom lift and spend Thanksgiving doing tree work. Thankful to have good weather and a good boss.
Alan
Well we got swabbed in the back of throat today at our hospital. Said it'll be 3-5 days for the test results. I don't have much doubt what the results will be. My wife is feeling pretty rough but I feel no worse than a common cold at least for now. I have lost taste though.Time will tell.
Dad called me from his isolation room (negative pressure) at the hospital last night and sounded so much better. He does have pneumonia in both lungs and they are treating him aggressively. His SATS were in the upper 90's so that was great to hear.
He just called me again just to fill me in. Didn't sound as good as last night. My surgeon friend text and said he checked on him today. He had the "Rona" 2 weeks ago and is just now getting back to work.
Told me they had 29 dedicated isolation rooms and working to get more available but had 61 patients waiting for a room. They are starting to transfer patients to other hospitals that have beds available. The hospital is short staffed with members in quarantine and overflowing with patients.
My daughter is an ER nurse at St. Rita's in Lima Ohio and said they are getting slammed right now.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on November 25, 2020, 01:09:36 PM
Well, this morning we had our first documented case of one of our ff's testing positive. He had just a little throat tickle, but got tested because of family exposures. Now 2/3 of his shift has to quarantine for minimum of 5 days. After 5 days they can get a test and return to work if negative. I have to fill lots of OT until then. There is the possibility we will have to close a firehouse due to staffing if I can't fill the time. We already have 3 guys out on disability, so its gonna be difficult. We only have 30 shift guys and this will mean that a total of 11 out of 30 are unable to work.
I understand what you're saying FFots. I'm not liking sitting at home when the tones drop for a medical, mva or fire. We're a rural fire district with 3 stations, 1 district chief and 3 station/ bc's of which I am one. Most have day jobs so I run out of all 3 stations. The district board and district chief like that I retired a year ago so the know I'm usually available. Guess I threw a wrench into the works on that.
I figure it'll all come out in the wash so to speak.
Everyone stay safe.
Brent
That sounds like good news on your dad, Brent. Good O2 sat!
Your FD sounds about the size of ours. We are mostly fulltime, but we do have about 6 volunteers still.
I am one of the BC's and the other 2 are on quarantine. Hopefully my test comes back negative. I'm needed to help fill spots on other days. GEtting rapid test, so I will know tonight.
The Pfzier vaccine is genetic one and needs to be stored at -80 🤫
If enough docs get hit with a + test, we will have to work if we physically can, otherwise there are no docs. it has been discussed as a contingent.
Well shucks. My test came back negative. Guess I better get all my projects done this weekend because I'll be going back to work next week.
Alan
Hang in there, Brent.
My job is about peoples wants, my wife's is about their needs. A couple of hundred people will have a Thanksgiving meal in part because of her work tomorrow. I had to let someone follow his own path for awhile today because it ultimately puts her in jeopardy. Chances are he will be able to get vaccinated before I will. Which leads to my question. I'm thinking that even if he is exposed he will no longer be a potential vector once vaccinated?
Good news for me is that my test also came back negative.
I read that vaccinated folks may still be a carrier/spreader for a short time til the antibodies do their thing. I also read that is likely to be a small chance that they will actually spread it.
My test was confirmed as negative by the state health dept. just got the call.
All this negativity is making me cautiously optimistic. :D
Quote from: Roxie on November 25, 2020, 10:31:58 PM
All this negativity is making me cautiously optimistic. :D
Yes, it's one test that you actually want to fail. :D
Doc's situation & test result begs the question that some people might be resistant to the covid-19? Makes me wonder how many couples/families have had a resistant experience in home or co-workers inside a close space over time and no positives?
Of course many positive tested people have no clue where they picked it up.
I've failed the test twice to date, but in my case it's expected not unexpected.
My eldest works for a national company that places medical staff, they were one of the groups that came up with retired and military personnel as fillers where needed. She had a trip to Maryland for a hospital client and reported that, while bad, did not meet her expectation gathered from the news media.
We did not like the fact of her travel during all this nonsense but it is her job. They use every practice to minimize exposure and test on a regular basis.
She and her family will not be with us this Thanksgiving, nor will my youngest daughter, both have kids in school systems and wish to protect us old folks.
God bless American and her citizens, we will come through this.
Doc, you tough ol' booger, those viruses must just bounce right off of you!😊
they take a taste, spit it out, and move on. :)
I believe in the strengthening of the immune system, but not being neurotic about cleanliness. I don't use antimicrobial soap and hand sanitizer as a rule. I believe some folks have healthier immune systems because of it. That being said, I am very careful about exposure. I wear N95 most of the time when at places like walmart. I also believe that in general my exposure here at the FD helps me to have a strong immune system. In spite of that, I believe that this being a novel corona virus my immune system as strong as it might be is ill equipped to fight off the virus. I've not had an antibody test to see if I had it earlier in the year. I doubt that I was, but just like Doc, my exposure is high.
in pediatric training, docs get lots of colds and stuff from all the kids. we have to make sure we do not give something to a kid on chemo or getting a bone marrow transplant. after a few years we mostly do not get sick often. It is like getting a booster for all the stuff we had as kids ourselves. I use the hand sanitizer in and out of rooms so I do not give it to the next person I see. It has been a rule for a long time and promoted for years. I had not drank the kool-aid in the past, but now I do it for this infection to slow the spread. :) be safe includes others.
When I ran a juvy treatment program for ~14-16 yr old males, we got tuberculosis exposed kids far more than the general population contained. I had 3 such boys in the 4.5 yr's I did that job. It was recommended that staff all get the screening xrays which were read by a doc trained for that job. We all came up negative though.
Quote from: Gary_C on October 17, 2020, 10:35:25 AM
Finally, Bertoletti's team looked for such T cells in blood samples from 37 healthy individuals with no history of either COVID-19 or SARS. To their surprise, more than half had T cells that recognize one or more of the SARS-CoV-2 proteins under study here. It's still not clear if this acquired immunity stems from previous infection with coronaviruses that cause the common cold or perhaps from exposure to other as-yet unknown coronaviruses.
Scientist have generally believed there was no cross immunity with virus but that belief may be proved wrong.
This is from a previous post I made about T cells which we do not know enough about right now. So it's entirely possible that some sort of T cell immunity can be gained from frequent exposure to colds. There is even some suspicion that frequent exposure to animals like cows may impart some very long lasting T cell immunity from Covid-19.
Not medical facts but a fact: my first subcontractor has come up positive. He and his wife had a baby and a day care worker got it and so now they are in quarantine. They are in late 20s and very healthy, will be fine just lost taste and smell and energy. First person that I work with that has had issues. He is a great young forester that logs but he does some of our prescribed burning and herbicide work.
I hope they all get better with no lasting results! My oldest daughter felt punky with a 100° fever so she went to an urgent care and got tested- negative for flu, strep and Wuhan. Thank God.
While trying to hide from the vacuum cleaner and taking a snack after the rugrats left I read the WSJ Travel section and an article on where people are going now. Mexico, PR, CR, Aruba and the Dominican Republic are mentioned but moist going to Mexico.
This doc is quoted as saying, "it's not where you go so much as how you go" suggesting proper protocols for covid. Then in the exact same paragraph it says some airlines hold the middle seat and some say masking but no enforcement while others will ban you for not minding.
Those countries allowing Americans in as mentioned above mostly have a 72 hour negative test requirement prior to boarding or entry.
Hard for me to see the sense in the test overall as the next steps are to leave the safety net of home and begin using public transportation, esp. airplanes and roam airports, all not the best place to hang out now days besides hotels?
Some travelers felt they were safer elsewhere than a hot spot home area and further justified travel by saying they be doing outdoor activities. maybe so to the extent they're not in all the other not outdoor places to get there. I'll pass on travel for now, as much as I'd like to do some. Our golden years are marching along during covid but guess it's a time to be glad I'm negative and have plenty of close by entertainment from my log pile.
We'll know in a couple of weeks how bad Thanksgiving travel is going to beat us up.
A young very healthy couple I've worked for has it, he's pretty much over it, she is having a rough time.
I heard on "Science Friday" they did sequence the genes on a person that got it twice, they were different strains of the virus. I think everyone who has gotten it a second time has been asymptomatic. I assume they can spread it but apparently they don't get really sick the second time, sort of immune i guess.
QuoteThere is even some suspicion that frequent exposure to animals like cows may impart some very long lasting T cell immunity from Covid-19.
That kicked off a memory of something I read one time. Apparently when Europeans first arrived here they remarked at the large stature and good health of the Native Americans compared to the smaller frame and general not so good health among their people. One thought was that the Europeans were basically living on top of domesticated livestock and had been for hundreds of years, passing disease back and forth. The flip side of that we know, the First People also had no immunity to those diseases. I'm not sure where we fit in with this current virus, I imagine it will be some time before we really know.
Quote from: Don P on November 28, 2020, 03:08:53 PM
QuoteThere is even some suspicion that frequent exposure to animals like cows may impart some very long lasting T cell immunity from Covid-19.
Well I take care of cattle on a daily basis and have not had a sick day in more than 15 years.
I'm still waiting for my 19 test to come back. In the meantime, I'm going to get a cow. Then when the virus is over I'll fill the freezer. :D :D ;)
I guess Vt. just got locked down, on Fri. the news for western Ma. said that we can't go to Vt. Rita just bought a car up there and now she can't go back to have a check of all the operating electronics so we know how to drive the Dang thing ;D :(.
Quote from: Ed_K on November 29, 2020, 08:00:00 AM
I guess Vt. just got locked down, on Fri. the news for western Ma. said that we can't go to Vt. Rita just bought a car up there and now she can't go back to have a check of all the operating electronics so we know how to drive the Dang thing ;D :(.
Thank God or AG for the internet!
Seriously, don't you know a millennial or a GenX'er to line you out on yer cars gizmos? :D
Our 2019 Lincoln still does door lock stuff we can't figure out and I fixed cars for a living! ;D
Well they sent my dad home yesterday. Really not sure why. We haven't even got our test results back yet and I've taken a turn for the worse. Having a rough time breathing and the coughing nearly takes me to my knees.
I got the nebulizer and albuterol out but I have a hard time inhaling without coughing so bad I feel like I'm gonna shake the boys loose.
I just hope dad is good enough to take care of himself because I'm spent.
I hope all of you stay safe as this really blows and I don't wish it on anyone.
Brent
if you breathing gets worse, go to ed and get and cxr, and it would have a certain look if it is covid, or other things like pneumonia can be picked up. check your oxygen level if you can and be sure you do not need to be in the hospital. If your dad is breathing ok, then there may be nothing they are doing for him in the hospital, and if like us, they need the bed.
Like doc said, don't wait too long to go to hospital.
Our DIL is a hospice nurse who works 3 days a week most weeks. She is now positive evidently from a co-worker. Their 3 girls have been with us since last Monday but neither they or we have shown any signs yet. We will go get them tested tomorrow. They were in contact with this lady (the co-worker) about 12 days ago (she brought them their Christmas gifts and they hugged and thanked her). Hopefully she was not contagious at that stage as now would be 12 days since exposure for them. In the mean time we have 3 refugees and will see in the morning if we have enough bandwidth for all three to do virtual classes at the same time. I suspect we will have them a couple more weeks till their mom gets over it and also to see if our son avoids it or he rides it out too.
Best of luck with this Howard. Mostly I hope the DIL comes through this OK, that is number one. As for the online school, we have been doing the '3 boy thing' here for a couple days a week for months now (feels like years). Neither the wife nor I can use any other devices while they are schooling and it gets really confusing and stressful with 3 different schedules to keep track of, plus some of the teachers schedule an 'event' but don't post a proper link. We do what we can but sometimes you just have to go for a walk. ;D
Best of luck.
Tom,
That sounds like our situation. One 3rd grade (Elem), one 7th (Middle) & one 9th (HS) so all go to different schools and this is the first time our/their school system has tried this although they have done a good bit of training over the internet so far. They stressed no family members or pets in the room with the kids I guess to prevent distractions and echo/feedback during class. We will see if I can keep Sampson quiet that long, I think they start at 0900 and last one may end at 1400. We still have to get them in for covid testing so have to see what is available tomorrow. We will see how this works out. I may be spending all day in the deer blind or at the barn to stay off the internet and out of the way. Supposed to be raining so no sawing and limited woodworking.
You guys looking after those kids like you do are a blessing in their lives far beyond what you know! It's hard, been down that road as well but hang in there.
Things my grandparents taught me. Nanny said that "vultures and hummingbirds both fly over the same desert. The vulture is looking for dead and rotted meat while the hummingbird is looking for bright flowers. Both find what they are looking for."
In a discussion with my grandfather about how to forget bad things, he replied that "you can't help the birds that fly over your head, but you can keep them from building a nest in your hair."
Irreplaceable wisdom. Y'all are an inspiration and this is my way of being supportive since I can't give each of you a hug.
Howard, I hope all of you and yours come through COVID favorably. I have students and coworkers in and out of quarantine. One of my classes is made up completely of "e-learners" and I am likely the most technologically challenged human on this rock. We have been asked as teachers to practice "grace and mercy" when it comes to grades. We've been growing strawberries, squash, working on shop projects, propagating plants and generally bouncing from one topic to another.
You guys talking about watching the grands hits home with my fire department. ONe of our guys tested positive 5 days ago. He got tested because his grandparents babysit his kids and they both tested positive. I don't know where the virus started from. Hard to say who had it first. His wife is a nurse and also tested positive. Everyone he works with had to quarantine a minimum of 5 days and then get tested before they could come back to work. Its been hard on the rest of us who had to pick up all the OT. Good news is that half the guys have tested neg and are coming back to work. The rest should know soon. None have had symptoms. I'll be happy to spend some significant time at home soon. I'm supposed to go back for 72 hours starting tomorrow morn. If 1 guy comes back to work I will only work my normal 48 hours.
Update....all but one of our guys on quarantine has tested negate. Still waiting for other guy. I think this means that the guy who tested positive was not very contagious. He was mostly symptom free. Just happy the guys arent sick.
I haven't posted in this thread for awhile but things here in Alberta have taken a rather nasty turn. As of yesterday we had 13 active cases with 3 in hospital in town and roughly the same cases in the county from low single digits a week or so ago and none in hospital.
Did read some encouraging info from one of the Medical research teams in England regarding "T cells" and the human immune system. Not a lot is know re these cells and their influence in our immune systems yet but the early data shows positive results. Doc may be able to shed more light on this topic. Understanding the "T cell" and it's relationship to the vaccine, along with availability/ deployment may well be the ticket out of this mess.
Its amazing how things change and our perspective changes. 6 months ago we were appalled when there were 7 new cases in a day in my county here in Missouri. Now we are getting sometimes over 200 new cases a day. When it was at 7 the county was shut down and we couldn't go anywhere. Now its out of control and people are acting as if there is no pandemic.
Well, schooling was a challenge. A couple of times the teacher evidently never logged on. I had to stay off the internet and FF so they had enough bandwidth. Our local hospital does testing from 8-12 so I guess we will get them there first thing in the morning so they can get tested and be back here before there 0900 classes start. We found today the girls first cousin (On DIL side of the family) has tested positive too. We will have the kids all week at a minimum.
So last night I was still feeling rough on the breathing and coughing so I took Doc Henderson's advice and went to the ED. They were really nice the moment I walk in. Checked my temp, 96.9 so no fever. They said that not unusual. Wasn't bad enough for an ER room i guess since they put me in an old waiting room, talked to me for a bit and left me sitting in a chair for about 4 hours. Periodically they stopped in, checked my temp and my spO2 level. Gave me a small dose of oral liquid Dexamethasone. That didn't do squat except send into nasty shivers after a half hour. Also a couple Tessalon Perles to try to help with my severe coughing. Jury's still out on that too. They did a chest x-ray at my request since I was feeling discomfort in the lower left lung. But that may have came from falling on a pipe sticking up out of the ground. Note to self; don't use a concrete block for a step stool.
Anyhow they told me that my X-ray showed what looks like shattered glass opacity. Exactly what my daughter said they are seeing in COVID patients.
I got a prednisone taper script today and doc ordered a z-pac for me and the wife after doing a Tele-med call. She got hers and my daughter said they didn't receive my script at the pharmacy from my doc. 20 minutes later she walks in the door and the phone rings from pharmacy saying my script is ready. bat_smailey Oh well, is what it is.
We'll see what the next few day bring and hopefully we're all on the rebound.
Thank you to everyone in this great family for checking on me and my family and all the well wishes and advice. You're all truly amazing.
One question I have for doc or anyone else in the know. I got to checking into some that my financial adviser had been talking to me about a few months ago but I forgot about. It's called the "Zelenko Protocol ".
Let me know if it has any merit. It's a little late for me but I'm curious.
Thanks again everyone. Take it serious and please stay safe.
Brent
I missed the bottom line - did they test and confirm you had Covid or just that you had bruised ribs from your cinderblock step?
I started having mild symptoms Wednesday. I first thought it was from getting a Shingrix vaccination. I got tested on Friday and got a call Monday morning that I was positive for Covid. I seem to have a gift for getting whatever is going around near Thanksgiving and deer season so I didn't really think it was Covid. No loss of taste or smell or fever. Right now I just have that crappy post flu feeling. Wife doesn't have any symptoms now so hopefully this passes quickly.
Quote from: caveman on November 30, 2020, 03:13:11 PM
Howard, I hope all of you and yours come through COVID favorably. I have students and coworkers in and out of quarantine. One of my classes is made up completely of "e-learners" and I am likely the most technologically challenged human on this rock. We have been asked as teachers to practice "grace and mercy" when it comes to grades. We've been growing strawberries, squash, working on shop projects, propagating plants and generally bouncing from one topic to another.
As retired educators we heard an interesting school grades item on last nights Tucker Carlson show. Grades have plummeted during covid in all age groups and learner characteristics. Greatly, not just a little bit! Many virtual students are not even enrolled in many locations. I wondered if a parent didn't bother when reality said they had no web connection?
It's a challenge to discuss education during covid and leave the politics out! The story line from our choice of "experts" for covid information has given us huge differences in schools open or closed. FWIW, my wife & I have chosen the real live school option vs. virtual school, from the start of covid issues.
Make your own choices as boards and superintendents and parents have done so far.
Facts are: FAR! more children have died from suicides than covid infections.
I really feel for teachers trying to reach all their students right now! Especially the ones they didn't really know prior to becoming a "face on a screen"!!!
One of my grade school grand daughters has been just placed back on covid home leave again as another student in her classroom has tested positive so the rest go home to quarantine. In her case her Mom, a teacher, and two younger sisters are in the same school different grades, etc. but still in real school.
Weird time we are in for schools.
The younger kids doing virtual with absent parents has to be a real concern.
my daughter should graduate from Bethany this spring, my son is taking the year off. he did not do well online.
Like many, I use myself in my learner thoughts. I loved school, got VG grades, etc., until I experienced the droning college profs who put me to sleep in even my ,most favorite subjects at times. But I flourished as an apprentice & as a helo mechanic trainee when I was exposed to technical subjects (not puters in my pre-puter case), shop or classroom !
In my my mostly tech ed educational career I cannot begin to imagine the damage done to hands on learning once turned into a video session? Distancing would also be challenging at times.
Same for all those art classes, gold/silver smithing/jewelry, drawing, painting and sculpture, so on that I took from 7th through 12th grade. Hardly subjects best taught on a puter!
The dental college I visit, which was closed all those months of far less covid infections, is now open during far worse covid saturation! Was like 3-4% back then now over 9-10%!!! but all is back to normal except the masks they always have worn and now an added face shield too along with a basic screening for temp and symptoms questions prior to entry. The "other aspect" that's abnormal is they're still 304 months behind on appointments. I could sure use a few molars right now ;D
These choices are why we are now at over 13 million cases. India which is apparently behaving just about as badly is over 9 million. We have had more cases in November than most countries have had since the virus started.
On education I'm reminded of my wifes mother and father. They were teenagers when Hitler invaded Holland in 1940. Young men were rounded up or went into hiding. For the next 5 years he hid by day and fought in the resistance by night. Their teachers smuggled them lessons to study while hiding out, one place was in a hidden "room" behind a built in china cupboard in his future wife's house. The Nazis did search the house when he and his brother were in there hiding. At the end of the war he took all the exams in one fell swoop and became a mechanical engineer. Five years... We can do this but it takes the dedication from all those involved to make it happen. My wife has taught several online afterschool programs with 20-30 students signed up, 2-4 have checked in, most disappointing. The results of some nationwide testing have just come out and it isn't as bad as we might think, reading is on par, math is a little behind but it obviously didn't check the ones that fell through the cracks.
I did hear an answer to my question of whether the vaccine keeps a person from spreading. The question was asked in an interview. They haven't checked that in the testing so that is an unknown at this point. The vaccine protects you but that doesn't mean at this point that you cannot spread it to the unvaccinated. We will know that in time.
It's getting into our group here, I hope everyone heals up soon. The rest of us need to take this seriously, help is on the way we just need to keep ourselves and those around us safe.
I was listening to a pair of veteran elementary teachers Saturday. 2nd and 3rd grade, both with over 20 years, talking about how they had to spend so much time on basic manners when school started back. I mentioned Dr Fauci expressed second thoughts around June Or July about the wisdom of closing K-8. They both nodded in agreement.
Hopefully we'll be better prepared for the next pandemic.
Quote from: Don P on December 01, 2020, 02:39:35 PMI did hear an answer to my question of whether the vaccine keeps a person from spreading. The question was asked in an interview. They haven't checked that in the testing so that is an unknown at this point. The vaccine protects you but that doesn't mean at this point that you cannot spread it to the unvaccinated. We will know that in time.
I suspect that being vaccinated would make you very unlikely to spread the virus. When someone catches the virus initially there are very few virus particles in their system. So they don't test positive, don't have symptoms, and wont be shedding "many" virus particles. It's after 3 or 4 days as the number of virus particles multiply that you start spreading larger numbers, and people become "infectious" a day or 2 before the virus starts causing damage / symptoms. Once the immune system gets ahead of the virus, it dies out and by 14 days later you shouldn't be infectious. Even if you still have symptoms, those are due to damage caused by the infection lingering after the virus has gone.
However it seems that the vaccine isn't 100% effective, and someone could still get a mild case of the virus (no real symptoms), and therefore be somewhat infectious for a while.
But if 90% of the folks around you are immune, then you are unlikely to be exposed in the first place. And if by some chance you are, 90% of the folks around you are immune, so you are unlikely to pass it on. The R0 (how quickly the virus spreads in "normal" conditions) is thought to be about 2.2. That means that for every case, on average it spreads to 2.2 more people. So you can see how the numbers would build up exponentially over time. 1 case -> 2 cases -> 5 -> cases -> 12 cases -> 26 cases -> 58 cases -> 128 cases.
Now if you can get the R number down to below 1.0, then on average each case infects less than one new victim. Say you can put enough measures in place to get the R= 0.5. Now it goes 128 -> 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8. If you can get even 80% of the population immune (90% have had a 90% effective shot), then your R number is more like 0.02 or something. As you get low enough then tracing and isolating individual cases and contacts becomes possible, and you can get to the stage where every case is known and isolated, and the virus is eliminated. When you have 128 new cases in a town, and each of those have 10 close contacts, the contact tracing just breaks down.
That low case numbers is basically the case here in NZ and Australia. The virus can still come in from overseas (hence the quarantine for new arrivals), and it has slipped through the quarantine several times. Luckily it's mostly been caught before the 8 cases stage, where testing / contact tracing / isolating can suppress the spread without more drastic measures.
The initial lock down here was strict, but relatively short, because with no non-essential travel or businesses, the infection rate dropped just like the epidemic theory said it should. OK it went up for the first week, but that was folks exposed before the lockdown. Once things shut down, it dropped off as fast as it had gone up. Then restrictions were eased in stages as the last few cases were isolated, and ~28 days after the last community case, only border restrictions remain.
This is a summary of a study done in China's Hunan Province during their initial outbreak. (Hunan is next door to Hubei where the virus started, so they got a significant number of cases, but not so many that it overwhelmed the ability to trace the infection.
Quotevery detailed information on viral cases: 1,178 infected individuals, another 15,648 people they came in contact with, and a total of nearly 20,000 potential exposure events.
What that means is they aren't now simply guessing about how the virus spreads. What they found was that simply being able to contact trace and isolate victims reduced the R to 1.01. Not enough to wipe out the virus, but it slowed the spread. But from that point other measures like banning mass gatherings, closing bars , wearing masks, extra hand sanitiser etc can easily get the R number well below one.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/11/what-we-can-learn-from-contact-tracing-an-entire-province/
And before anyone says "but you can't believe the Chinese", the scientific paper was published by a group of scientists, 2 American, 2 Italian and several Chinese, and has been peer reviewed. It's actual science, and backs up what has happened in this part of the world. How China can enforce the testing and lock-down is politics, a whole other can of worms, and not the subject here.
Quote from: Claybraker on December 01, 2020, 03:33:26 PM
I was listening to a pair of veteran elementary teachers Saturday. 2nd and 3rd grade, both with over 20 years, talking about how they had to spend so much time on basic manners when school started back. I mentioned Dr Fauci expressed second thoughts around June Or July about the wisdom of closing K-8. They both nodded in agreement.
Hopefully we'll be better prepared for the next pandemic.
Lil is a Kindy teacher and we have 2 daughters at school,Year 3 and Year 9, which is fist year college here.
Lil was of course home during the lock down, so was able to be substitute teacher for them. Basically making sure they put in "some" time each day for their online work. The Kindy was basically closed as it's just not practical to teach 3 year olds via Zoom. :D
The girls had online assignments, things they could print out and work on, and were send some physical workbooks for some subjects. Teachers were then available in Zoom, or via email / phone to help out. Teaching the whole class via Zoom didn't really seem to work. Major logistical exercise to try and get every student connected. Some families only had internet via cellphone, some not even that. So all the families were surveyed so the school's laptops and Govt funded wifi hotspots could be loaned to those that needed them. We had spare laptops and fibre internet here, so no issues and didn't get involved in that, apart from helping deliver all the courier packs.
Ms 8's teacher did comment when school returned that it was obvious who had done some home study as they were doing at least as well as before. The ones that hadn't, had actually lost ground and slipped back a level or 2. Ms 8 hadn't slid back, and as she enjoys reading had gone up a step there. Ms 13 handled it well, even if she had to wait for me to get home and help with some maths and science stuff. Luckily I can still remember year 9 maths, even if I'm a bit rusty after that. Anyway she got through the year and is at or above the levels she should be.
But I have no doubt that having to online school is going to have a negative impact on many, and the longer it goes on, the bigger the gaps. But I note Tammy saying that 3 of their local school bus drivers have come down sick. May not be a big danger to the kids themselves, but they can certainly carry it, and infect staff, and / or carry it home, which all helps the continuing spread.
Our kids have all been homeschooled from the beginning, "before it was cool", I like to say. Our oldest daughter will be done with her Business degree this spring. Our second daughter graduated High School while simultaneously earning a 2 year AA degree this year (first daughter did this as well before going to a state college for her Bachelor's). Our 3 younger kids are still home schooling. The Covid situation has affected them as well, as most all of the extra-curricular activities have been shut down. However, I talk to some of my coworkers who are telling me that their teenage sons are trying to quit school in their senior year, because they just can't stand the online schooling. I don't get it, other than the way they describe the classes sounds what I call "onerous". My kids workloads are pretty light, and they are all doing online curriculums. I think the difference is these are designed as homeschool, online curriculums. The public school curriculums, I'm not sure they know what they're doing. I used to worry if the curriculums were thorough enough when the kids could finish their day in 2 hours- I'm asking myself, "how can that be when they'd need to be gone all day for public school?" But my 2 daughters excelling in college reassured me things were ok. I've been encouraging people that I'm talking to who have kids struggling with public school online options to check out actual homeschool curriculums.
Theoretically, you have to get infected before antibodies can rid the body of the virus. So I guess there could be a short time where you are contagious, but it can't be anything compared to someone who is unvaccinated and spreading virus. I may have read same or similar story. They said there is no data on it, but scientists believe it will greatly reduce spread.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 01, 2020, 07:09:02 PM
Theoretically, you have to get infected before antibodies can rid the body of the virus. So I guess there could be a short time where you are contagious, but it can't be anything compared to someone who is unvaccinated and spreading virus. I may have read same or similar story. They said there is no data on it, but scientists believe it will greatly reduce spread.
That's my thinking too. There is that time between when you are exposed, and when you become infectious, during which the virus is multiplying in your body faster than your immune system can respond. That's the first 2 or 3 days, you aren't infectious then.
If you have had the vaccine (and it "took"), then you immune system should kick in sooner, and wipe out the virus on day one or 2, before it multiplies enough to get to the infectious stage.
Nothing 100% sure yet, but every other vaccine works like this. The vaccine also doesn't HAVE to be 100% effective to work. The mythical "herd immunity" kicks in when a significant enough % of population are immune. Even if there are a few still vulnerable people out there, the virus can't spread enough to reach many of them, and those last few cases probably don't reach the next vulnerable person.
Without a pool of infected people wandering around, the virus dies out. Like Smallpox has once a working vaccine was used widely enough.
our prison is at over 80% having been infected, new cases dropping.
Quote from: barbender on December 01, 2020, 06:32:38 PM
Our kids have all been homeschooled from the beginning, "before it was cool", I like to say. Our oldest daughter will be done with her Business degree this spring. Our second daughter graduated High School while simultaneously earning a 2 year AA degree this year (first daughter did this as well before going to a state college for her Bachelor's). Our 3 younger kids are still home schooling. The Covid situation has affected them as well, as most all of the extra-curricular activities have been shut down. However, I talk to some of my coworkers who are telling me that their teenage sons are trying to quit school in their senior year, because they just can't stand the online schooling. I don't get it, other than the way they describe the classes sounds what I call "onerous". My kids workloads are pretty light, and they are all doing online curriculums. I think the difference is these are designed as homeschool, online curriculums. The public school curriculums, I'm not sure they know what they're doing. I used to worry if the curriculums were thorough enough when the kids could finish their day in 2 hours- I'm asking myself, "how can that be when they'd need to be gone all day for public school?" But my 2 daughters excelling in college reassured me things were ok. I've been encouraging people that I'm talking to who have kids struggling with public school online options to check out actual homeschool curriculum
Our kids were not homeschooled unless you count the fact that we were involved parents who provided every possible chance at being there for our kids as "schooling". I'm not a particular fan of Homeschool but certainly recognize that it works for some people. I tend to feel it's more of a parental choice than a childs choice. My nearest neighbor, who is a KY state trooper and his wife a public school teacher homeschool there 5 boys, the oldest is now out of (GED-I gave the GED tests to hundreds of homeschoolers, dropouts and a few Mennonites over many years)) high school and training to become an aircraft mechanic, the other 4 still homeschooled. KY state cops have weird variable schedules while his wife teaches FT elementary across the road form mine and theirs mailboxes. Religion is a heavy factor in their choice to homeschoolas it is for the majority of parents in my area who choose it. The worst aspect of homeschooling is the parents who pull the kids but are noit capable or don't choose to do it correctly! Believe me when I say I've seen that one up close and personal here in my educational jobs.
The neighbors Dad is a best friend and disagrees with the homeschooling as do my wife and I but I see that it's their right to do so and they do it with a passion by including supplementals available in our rural area if your willing to haul your kids to various religious, musical and other educational stuff they have at nearest town (50kRT) at a church operated homeschool combo operation.
They also bother their grandpa who I talk to near daily by choosing to forego vaccinations and other sorts of different viewpoints besides schooling...
I can truthfully say that our sons chose to like sports a lot along with being superb students as well, all three and would have been very unhappy if we'd have pulled them away from their friends. Did their public experience serve them well? Yes & no! But they all chose high level professions and have excelled in life so far. I feel they'd have weathered covid just as well if younger now as they were adaptable kids.
Public school, elementary years in particular, are often a three way palate of a last years rehash, then some new material, then yet another boring rehash to end that school year. Homeschooling offers the chance to tailor a kids material and not make them suffer the re-hash crap my son's all complained about. truth be know, life in the real world of work, like public schooingl has those same dull parts we must sometimes endure?
I can see homeschooling as a potential better choice than covid virtual if it's not well done publicly.
My test came back negative.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on November 30, 2020, 09:26:50 PM
I missed the bottom line - did they test and confirm you had Covid or just that you had bruised ribs from your cinderblock step?
I'm sorry so late Howard but I haven't felt up to logging in lately. Pretty much drives me to me knees when I start coughing. Can't get my air, but I think I'm getting a little better.
So the answer to your question is yes it came back positive along with my wife and dad. Dad is doing great. Wife seems to be rounding the corner.
Hopefully the prednisone taper pac will kick in and knock the inflammation back and get me back to a somewhat normal life.
Snow is on the ground and the deer are running past the house and I'm bummin that I'm not out hunting. I have a brand new Ruger Camo Go Wild 450 BushMaster waiting on my finger. It's never been shot
Brent
Quote from: doc henderson on December 01, 2020, 09:04:07 PM
our prison is at over 80% having been infected, new cases dropping.
Well, I guess we know herd immunity is good at 80%. Sadly, prison is a good place to test that theory. I imagine that as close as those folks are in a prison, on the outside something less than 80% will work.
I'm gonna get another test tomorrow. I have some troubling new symptoms that makes me think I was negative last week, but maybe now positive due to one of our firefighters who was pos when we made shift change last week. I may be spending a few nights in the camper until I get results. A positive test will win me a lot of nights in the camper.
Brent that's great news about your dad and wife. Hopefully you have turned the corner and are on your way to feeling better.
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) looks like Missouri is slated to get about 50,000 doses of Pfizer vaccine at first and Kansas only less than 25,000 based on population of the states. I guess we have to start somewhere and that will be a good start.
yes, we are swamped beyond capacity at work, and it cannot come soon enough! :)
Well, I can confirm that as of 0815 Tuesday last my wife and I were negative for C-19. We and the 3 GDs got tested then. I have not seen their results yet but I would be very surprised if they had it since we have had them sine Monday last week. As of yesterday our son was still testing negative which also surprises me since his wife has it and he never walks out the door without kissing her goodbye.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 03, 2020, 02:35:33 PM
yes, we are swamped beyond capacity at work, and it cannot come soon enough! :)
As much as I want the vaccine, I want you and your compatriots at hospitals to get it before me. When this is all a memory, we should all have a little more respect and appreciation for the doctors and nurses
who dealt with it in the way they did.
I was invited to Thanksgiving at a relatives house. I knew there would be lots of people and that they do not mask up or practice social distancing. I declined but my B-I-L went. He does mask up most of the time and has been keeping to himself other than Thanksgiving. Retiree like me.
He called and said he tested positive today. Quarantined himself. He did call the relatives and told them, but they said they all feel fine and don't need to be tested. Probably out spreading covid around right now.
Glad I skipped Thanksgiving.
That is good Peter.
DbltreeBelgians you take care of yourself And all you others too!!!
I completely agree that the health care people should get the first doses of the vaccine. My daughter-in -law is a nurse and I have been so concerned for her.
Even though I would fall into the at risk elderly, I will not get a vaccine until my at risk grandchild and the front line workers (grocery online shoppers, convenience store and gas station workers, truckers, cable and utility workers, teachers, et al).
It's far easier and less disruptive for me to continue to isolate. Heroes are everywhere and I will quote Mr Rogers, "when things are very bad, look for the helpers."
Two current articles r.e.,covid-19 are interesting and timely. One's the lead editorial in the NYT's today-it depicts where you are in the vaccine line based on your personal demographics after you plug them in. Age, location, etc..
Seems in my area of KY I am right after the front line folks, nursing homes and then me and some other old folks. Wheee!
Not that a hospital really near me is being shipped the vaccines though...Hmmmm?
The other is a 12/2 WSJ overview of the ~ 400 vaccines being developed worldwide and some basics about how other countries are implementing their vaccines. Several are down right scary as no clinical trials on humans yet throwing them out there!
If your puter skills are better than mine please link these articles, thanks.
Oh yeah, while I want a vaccine and as fast as possible, I don't disagree with making sure its safe first. China and Russia have approved vaccines for use already with little to no study. Of course, Putin hasnt taken it yet. Even the UK has approved the Pfizer vaccine with what appears to be little review.
they do the studies on everyday citizens. does not work that way here, and part of why things are harder and take longer in the USA. Freedom is never free, and comes with great responsibility.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 04, 2020, 11:30:42 AMEven the UK has approved the Pfizer vaccine with what appears to be little review.
The phase 3 trials were conducted in several different countries, by several different research teams. Those studies are basically all the info that currently exists on the vaccine in the real world. So all a Govt approval agency can really do is review and double check the results. Unless they want to spend another 3 months and repeat the phase 3 trials?
Otherwise it's probably verify the raw numbers with the various overseas research teams to make sure they are accurate, double check the maths and approve it. Sitting on the info for another month isn't going to change it. I would imagine they already have reviewed and approved the scientific research behind the vaccine before they approved the Phase 3 testing. All they were waiting on was confirmation of the Phase 3 testing?
As for distributing it? Pfizer have already made millions of doses while completing the last tests and awaiting approval. But millions of doses have to spread pretty thin when you have billions of people. Just the logistics of getting it distributed is mind boggling as it's not just the US that has signed up for the program. I imagine it will be most of next year vaccinating enough people to really make a difference.
Until then, keep your head down and try not to catch it.
Yeah, I read an article where several nation's representatives were critical of the UK, but maybe they had the best approach. They have apparently been reviewing data all along as it comes in from each stage of the study. Kudos to them if they can get started safely before everyone else.
one could argue that we let the rest of the world test things, and then start up here if it works well. that is the trouble with our culture, that anything that does not go well, deserves a malpractice lawsuit.
The WSJ article categorizes the 400 various types of covid vaccines begun in the world and graphs them as to if they're into the 3 clinical stages or at the beginning as is the case in China, Russia and a some others.
I found it interesting but far over my head that some covid vaccines are the first ever of their design type to be used to create a vaccine. This is a very dynamic (if that's the best word?) time in science & health.
not to be political, but it is unheard of to get treatments and vaccines moving so fast. It is like when we have been so busy that people wait 3 hours, we finally get dug out of a hole, and we bring people back. and someone will complain about the wait, and we were just back there eating. well breakfast at 7 am, you get a little hungry by 2 or 3 in the after noon.! :) they act like they think we were back their having a party and making them wait. it is a very few but gets your goat! very busy. so if you know about medicine, you know our country has done next to the impossible.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 04, 2020, 06:06:39 PMwe finally get dug out of a hole, and we bring people back. and someone will complain about the wait, and we were just back there eating.
Thanks for what you do Doc! There are far too many "it's all about me" people in this world. If more had the same empathy and compassion like you and the majority of health professionals that would certainly go a long way.
Doc's "we finally caught a break in the ER story" reminds me of what a waste doctor/dentist reviews have become.
Mostly they are a bitch & moan over some peevish non-event. The frenzy hospitals show even in my nearest to our rural area what with billboards showing active billboard clocks with the current wait times sets you guys up for->Immediate Satisfaction Expectations<-? ::)
Hang tough, as they say.
People drive their cars the same way as they navigate retail stores in person or probably the same on the phone I suspect as an ER room. RIGHT NOW! is all I will accept!
Then they run a red light, stop signs are rolling and gone and turning in front of others...
That said, I have personally experienced several ER visits when it seemed they were trying really hard to kill me, let me die. Too long to tell those stories here.
I'll throw this into that discussion: I wish medical professionals were more involved in the surveys I get after my medical visits! How the hell do I know if you guys wash your hands or sanitize stuff well? There is much more there about things I have no way to rate someone over as I lack that information or knowledge.
My test came back negative. The results were in my healthcare portal at 10:12 last night. Unfortunately I went to bed in the camper at 10:05 last night. Oh well, just happy to have the camper to quarantine in. It got down to 27 last night. The heater and some good blankets kept me comfortable though. Still, I'll be happy to sleep in my bed tonight.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 04, 2020, 06:06:39 PM
not to be political, but it is unheard of to get treatments and vaccines moving so fast.
As much as politicos like to take credit for things like this or the internet, it is a tribute to the scientists, manufacturers, suppliers and transportation folks throughout the world. I believe Pfizers partner in this is a German based company with people in each working from a number of countries. Manufacturing in Belgium is going to the UK in their opening doses. Moderna is a small young company that has never produced anything with FDA approval but was doing research in MRNA drugs. Their manufacturing capability is way too small, they have partnered with a Swiss manufacturing company. I hope they can pull it off. As much as we have balked in the past, this is showing one of the upsides of globalization. Many people working to get the job done in very short order.
I heard this morning that blood samples in the US were showing Covid as early as Dec last year. It was apparently in circulation here also well before we knew it.
yes, sounds like it flew under the radar, and why not, it acts just like other flu/cold viruses with the occ. severe complication. it just happens to have more serious and frequent problems but we would never know since most viruses are not identified. since there is no specific treatment usually. this pandemic may push research, and we may yet cure the common cold as well. likely one of the vaccines will come out on top after a few years, and hopefully not due to the politics.
Quote from: Don P on December 05, 2020, 01:32:35 PM
I heard this morning that blood samples in the US were showing Covid as early as Dec last year. It was apparently in circulation here also well before we knew it.
We as the general public didn't know, but you can bet powers to be knew something was amuck. My friend works in a lab in Toronto and they knew about the "new virus" then and were talking about it a christmas lunch we all were together at in December 2019.It was only casual talk, more so amongst the 3 that were trained in lab work.
Having a "bug" that nobody knows what it is is not so novel?
In 2006 I went backpacking in CO with a Kansas cousin, on return stopped in Silver Lake, KS one night, felt normal, then next day drove on home to KY, felt normal but not long after arrival at home I had a lethally high temperature which wife controlled then off to the local doc early Monday and then ordered into hospital for testing. After three days and over $$$ ten thousand $$$ of tests they still didn't know what I'd had. But it "went away" as my body dealt with whatever hit me. I've since decided it was a tick bite but first thought it was my water filter.
Maybe it was corona virus 14 years ago? ::)
Im convinced I had it last November. I left deer camp on opening day of season on the 15th, went home and missed my first gun deer season ever, was sick until mid december, then ended up in the er with stroke or seizure like symtoms that they never found an answer for. This resulted in my going to work for myself and losing over 100lbs.
My son called this morning to confirm his test came back positive. He is in lockdown till Saturday. We had the girls for 13 days and they dodged the bullet by being here when their mom first got the bug. Yesterday they went to stay with their mom's parents. They have not seen them in months because their other grandfather is high risk. Since they were tested Tuesday and found negative and been in isolation here they figured it was safe for them to go there now. I am sure they will have a great time. No I just have to figure out how to save or use up the stockpile of Mac & Cheese, chocolate milk, chocolate Ice cream, hot dogs, and a years supply of instant mashed taters which the youngest one eats like they were candy or something.
I'm sure you need some wind down time with a big bowl of ice cream and a glass of milk. I'm not sure the rest of that has a shelf life :D. It's good they get to visit with the other Grands. Hope everyone recovers soon.
Interesting article about how long it actually took to develop the Moderna vaccine.
We Had the COVID-19 Vaccine the Whole Time (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/12/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-design.html)
The RNA sequence of the virus had been released by Chinese scientist, who temporarily got some strife for doing so, and the new vaccine was designed over the weekend, before the US even had a confirmed case. Before the first reported US death the vaccine had been manufactured and testing started. The real "Warp Speed" has been since then to get the testing and approval done quickly, compared to the usual years. The extra funding has allowed that, and production to be ramped up before approval has come through. But it didn't actually create the vaccine, that had already been done.
The interesting bit is that the research on the vaccine method had already been completed. It was basically a template for a vaccine, that just needed to be encoded with the right proteins and it was ready to go. Sort of like a cure waiting for a disease?
Quote from: Ianab on December 07, 2020, 09:31:37 PM
Interesting article about how long it actually took to develop the Moderna vaccine.
The interesting bit is that the research on the vaccine method had already been completed. It was basically a template for a vaccine, that just needed to be encoded with the right proteins and it was ready to go. Sort of like a cure waiting for a disease?
That claim is somewhat misleading, is completely arrogant and somewhat dangerous. With todays DNA/RNA sequencing abilities, developing a drug or vaccine is not usually a problem. That is especially true with the already developed knowledge of the family of coronavirus, where the attack point was already known as stopping the spike protein from attaching. The real time consuming problem is first the animal studies and then the efficacy studies in humans and determining if the drug or vaccine does not kill the patient nor make him grow webbed feet. It's all about avoiding the law of unintended consequences. Plus claiming to having a template is ignoring the fact that viruses mutate.
Quote from: Ianab on December 07, 2020, 09:31:37 PM
The real "Warp Speed" has been since then to get the testing and approval done quickly, compared to the usual years.
The real "Warp Speed" was created by first hiring a drug industry expert to point out unnecessary steps in the FDA approval process and eliminating paperwork steps that were unnecessary and time consuming. Then the most beneficial step was to eliminate all of the risk for the drug industry by pre buying product which also eliminated the normal wait time between approval and product delivery. That was the "genius" part of the process that few will give Trump credit for achieving.
Recent news stories have arisen that the administration refused to pre buy additional doses from Pfizer but if they had accepted then the EU and UK would have been shut out for a long time. The US has already hedged it's bets with Pfizer by pre buying from Moderna I believe and we should have enough doses to vaccinate everyone by June.
While I enjoy the input and the discussion, let's keep that for another thread and get back to "just the facts."
Gary, just to clarify, I'm not knocking operation warp speed. It's done a great thing by speeding up the testing, approval and pre-production of the vaccines.
I just found it interesting that the development of the vaccine had been completed so early, and basically before the program started. I didn't know that before today. I did know that the testing and approval of a new drug or vaccine is expensive, and time consuming.
Warp speed has provided the funding and cut the red tape so the vaccines got tested, produced, approved and ready to go in less than a year, rather than 5 or so years. That makes it a success.
The fact that viruses mutate is one of the strengths of this style of vaccine. The template can be programmed with a different sequence to respond to a new virus or variant. That's why it only took a couple of days to design the current one, once they had the gene sequence of the virus. They weren't working from a blank page, 99% of the lab research had already been done. The BIG job was testing to ensure it was safe, actually worked, got approved, and then manufacture and distribute it.
Top marks for getting that done in 20% of the usual time.
We are going to be getting vaccines shipped here to New Brunswick as early as next week, so vaccines before Christmas looks likely. Nursing homes first.
N.B. to get first shipment of COVID-19 vaccine doses next week | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/vaccine-first-shipment-newbrunswick-1.5831759)
yes, 70 years of making vaccines had us primed and ready. we make a new flu vaccine each year. this will take us to the next level, and those technologies may cure the common cold and or cancer. many cancers start with either mutations and or damage to our dna by viruses inserting stuff into our cells. Human Papilloma virus as an example. and we have a vaccine for that now.
well it is good to see vaccines going somewhere fast, not sure we're going to be fully vaccinated by June but we'll have a good start and should be done by next years cold weather/holiday season. Something that we can all be grateful. Very important that as we discuss this that we are grateful and supportive of all efforts to eliminate the risks, loss of life and increased poverty are terrible. Surely we can all agree on that.
RE operation warp speed. Well it surely does speed things up in the US but the US is not an isolated angel leading the world but a very interested party with good resources. Of course someone in China had a vaccine ready..the *DanG thing surely originated at the virus research lab in wuhan that had crappy control procedures. It's been out a while and now the blood tests are showing it has been out of China for months before China officially recognized the issue. But I rant. China did not even have enough sick people to do human test, thus the outreach to Brazil and the testing in Brazil. There will be lots of global competition to sell vaccines.
Doc has it right I think, we'll come out of this a bit more prepared for future issues and hopefully look at cancer and other issues in a new light.
Quote from: nativewolf on December 08, 2020, 09:16:35 AM
we'll come out of this a bit more prepared for future issues and hopefully look at cancer and other issues in a new light.
Until we do what we always do, become complacent and lax and cut funding as time passes and we dwell in good times until we get stung again. Highly predictable bunch we are. :D
Vaccination has begun across the UK today.
Coronavirus: UK's first COVID-19 vaccine recipients excited to get their shots - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbpwMhwfz9U)
I'm back!! 8) I finally turned the corner today. What a nasty trip it was.
Everyone in this house had different symptoms. Dad had breathing issues and fever. My wife had fever, cough, nausea and severe body aches. She spent days on end in bed. I had no fever, I lost all taste and smell, headache, severe coughing and extreme breathing difficulties. I also had effects mentally. I didn't know that could happen. Hallucinations, wild dreams, waking in the middle of the night in a dark void full of blocks I couldn't get out of, and just being in a fog. I didn't want to go to sleep anymore. I became irritated at tv. Can't stand seeing the news talk about COVID and close my eyes when I see someone getting an injection. I feel that comes from the colon cancer I dealt with years ago. I really hate needles now. Maybe it's a form of PTSD? Who knows. It was a long dark time in my life and I don't wanna play that game again.
Anyhow like I said I woke this morning and said to myself,"Hey I feel better". To make the day better I had a Tele-med call with my pulmonary doc who had COVID 6 weeks ago and she said she had symptoms similar to mine. And she said it can definitely effect you mentally. So I told her I'm in day 16 of this mess, how long do I have to stay in the house?
She told me I'm free to roam and out of quarantine and isolation.
Shortly after my call with her I got a call from Santa at my Stihl dealer.
My Christmas present had arrived. Here it is
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/31436/39BC7E79-90B8-4A41-9B3A-E36DD86179F6.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1607477173)
Fresh from Germany shiny new MS 461 w/ 32" bar.
My wonderful 056 super av finally bit the dust.
Did I mention it was a good day?
Everyone please stay safe. It's real. I had my doubts early on but can testify it ain't no fun and I don't wish this on anyone.
Take care,
Brent
looking good Brent, and that is a fact! 8) :)
Quote from: DbltreeBelgians on December 08, 2020, 09:10:08 PMFresh from Germany shiny new MS 461 w/ 32" bar.
Brent, you ain't right!! Nothing wrong nor wrong with you, but you just ain't right!! :D
Quote from: Magicman on December 08, 2020, 09:47:00 PM
Quote from: DbltreeBelgians on December 08, 2020, 09:10:08 PMFresh from Germany shiny new MS 461 w/ 32" bar.
Brent, you ain't right!! Nothing wrong nor wrong with you, but you just ain't right!! :D
Yeah I never said I was right, just said "I'm back" and boy is it ever good to be back.
And thanks doc. Thank you for what you do.
Y'all be safe now ya hear?
Brent
Brent, you ain't right!
You ain't wrong, but you ain't right!
I'm glad you're back. Keep on plugging away, day by day.
Brent I'm glad you guys are doing good. Now be careful with your new toy 👍
Quote from: DbltreeBelgians on December 08, 2020, 09:10:08 PMSo I told her I'm in day 16 of this mess, how long do I have to stay in the house? She told me I'm free to roam and out of quarantine and isolation.
14 days is the accepted quarantine time. Some folks take longer to shake the after effects, like fatigue and "brain fog", but at 14 days and feeling better, you shouldn't be spreading the virus.
Glad you are feeling better. :)
Brent, so glad to hear that you are still kicking and are on the right side of the root zone.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2487.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1533513971)
Hopefully, you will be able to taste the ice cream soon.
Thats great news @DbltreeBelgians (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=21436) I'm glad you're feeling better. I wish more people could learn from your experience and believe just how real it can be. Experiences like yours tell me that some side effects from the vaccine for a few days are worth it to prevent something much worse.
I'm very excited about the vaccine coming out. I have a feeling things won't go as fast as I'd like, as I know a lot of folks won't get it. At least I know my family will get the vaccine when we can and we will be protected.
As far as the vaccine goes, I'm still on the fence about it. I still want to know personally what the long term effects are going to be vs. what else it's possibly going to do, like DDT was the miracle pesticide until the other the other unforeseen consequences that it had.
My oldest sister works for the state health department and my niece is a nurse somewhere. I'm just not sure of the information/hype that they've been given. Don't get me wrong, something somewhere has to have happened, but I personally have not seen anything other than news.....
Just going to throw this out there with respect to numbers, since I'm sort of a numbers guy ;). Oregon, this year to date has had 5 cases of the "regular" flu reported statewide. 5, as on one hand. Last year we had thousands. Hmmm. Cooking the books comes to mind.
we have only seen sporadic cases of the flu. poss. due to all the mitigation for covid
I believe there are a few things going on. It stands to reason that in a time where we are dealing with a very contagious virus, that a less contagious one will not be as prevalent as in the past. People are washing their hands better than they used to. They are social distancing, wearing masks etc. The flu should be less prevalent this year. As far as confirmed cases of the flu go, we are not doing a lot of testing for it. Somebody feels bad, so they go get tested for Covid. If negative, they go about their business or stay home until they feel better. There is not much reason to then go get tested for flu. I have never been tested for flu in my life. I just didn't see the point. I have been tested for covid twice.
I have to reject the idea of cooking the books. I have many friends who are nurses, doctors and even one who is the head of our county health department. My friends are not a part of a government conspiracy. They are honest folks trying to help mitigate a public health crisis.
A friend was taken to the hospital today, he tested positive last Thursday but was "getting by", mid 60s with lungs damaged in a serious farm tractor accident a few years ago. This morning his wife called the ambulance because of his difficulty breathing, so far she isn't showing symptoms and hasn't been tested. The wife is also mid 60s and has Parkinson's, would that be considered much of an extra problem?
DDT wasn't injected in peoples arms?
I'm of the mindset that there are certain times when we are well advised to trust a medical service provider unless theres some obvious, common sensical red flag waving? Where's the red flags on covid vaccines? They will have gone through human trials before anyone in main population gets the shot.
I have better things to worry about-meaning lifes activities are more fun and no lost sleep either- such as my logs waiting to be sawed, trees to be cut and shop project now in progress.
Bring on the vaccine and worry not in my own case. 8)
Australia and New Zealand reported an almost complete lack of 'regular flu' in their winter a few months ago.
The medical community there chalked it up to all the precautions that were being taken against the new Corona virus.
.
"Last year we had thousands. Hmmm. Cooking the books comes to mind."
.
Most levels of government don't have the smarts or organization to put together a conspiracy.
With the above, less contact, better distancing, washing, and masking in at least some people plus less travel between northern and southern hemispheres was predicted to give us a lighter flu season some months ago. Getting the flu vaccine is not a bad idea as having both at the same time would suck.
Quote from: gspren on December 09, 2020, 02:50:43 PMThe wife is also mid 60s and has Parkinson's, would that be considered much of an extra problem?
As the virus can attack the nervous system / brain (loss of taste / "brain fog") I'd worry that it could aggravate an existing condition like Parkinsons?
But that's only a guess, and the virus causes different symptoms in different people, so who really knows?
NZ recorded a total of 5 confirmed Flu cases over the Winter. and no deaths. so it's certainly believable that other places have seem a similar drop. Less international travel to bring in new strains of the virus, more sanitation and social distancing. Those controls seem to at least be working on the influenza virus.
Quote from: WDH on December 09, 2020, 08:27:24 AM
Brent, so glad to hear that you are still kicking and are on the right side of the root zone.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2487.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1533513971)
Hopefully, you will be able to taste the ice cream soon.
Guess I'll have to ask the boss where he ordered the wonderful Blueberry Waffle Cone ice cream from. First time I ever had it and boy it was good. cone_1
our 4 point and 22 point pcr test also tests for influenzae, and there have been less than a handful of cases, certainly no "outbreak". we are required to get a flu shot.
I saw on the national news about a minature electronic device being inplanted under the skin with the virus shot. Makes me nervous. Bad enough the cell phone tracks me but at least i can leave that home.
Quote from: trapper on December 09, 2020, 11:03:09 PM
I saw on the national news about a minature electronic device being inplanted under the skin with the virus shot. Makes me nervous. Bad enough the cell phone tracks me but at least i can leave that home.
What news source was that?
all I have seen is a regular shot like all other vaccines. (I had the pneumatic small pox when I was a kid.)
Todays news:
Who is planning (willing to) to get the new covid vaccine is being whipped into a hotter topic by the media, than what it is already among people like myself, IMO of course.
Various surveys are indicating that many adults are saying they'll not get the shot at all or at least for now. Of course this means their kids wont either...
If the media wants to really stir up a [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] storm, why not go ahead and attack the food supply and much more that the FDA has responsibility for?
One simple fact matters to me:
Is it approved by the people who are given that responsibility to ensure the testing stage protocols have been followed and then-where do I go to get my shot? ;D
Quote from: BradMarks on December 09, 2020, 12:48:39 PM
Just going to throw this out there with respect to numbers, since I'm sort of a numbers guy ;). Oregon, this year to date has had 5 cases of the "regular" flu reported statewide. 5, as on one hand. Last year we had thousands. Hmmm. Cooking the books comes to mind.
People are washing hands, social distancing, wearing masks. These are all good for disease control. Flip your statement around and suddenly everything fits without a conspiracy theory. Hey, good hygiene controls the spread of diseases. Gosh...Amazing. Who knew. Oh wait, the whole world knew. What this lack of flu spread shows us is how poor our normal hygiene is. People should wash hands more often, sick people should stay home, etc. Oh, and people should get a flus shot.
@kantuckid (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7283) I will be as soon as I am able to get stuck. I for one would look to require this for school attendance. The polling I have seen says most people will get the vaccine. Sadly, it is the poor and racial minorities that seem most uncertain. Will be 2021 fall before we could expect school children to be vaccinated.
I agree that the media is seeking to stir controversy rather than build consensus. Sad
I guess the question I have is would you rather take your chances with the vaccine or the virus? If you do nothing, you will get the virus, but at least you did not have to make a decision. I will get the vaccine. just like the military and search and rescue, you have to have a functioning team to help others. In SAR, we are not allowed to eat food given to us by locals as a thanks, since if the power is out, the food may make us sick.
I will get the vaccine at the first opportunity, 50 years ago when heading to Viet Nam I was vaccinated for things I never heard of and I'm still kicking.
Quote from: gspren on December 10, 2020, 08:47:48 AM
I will get the vaccine at the first opportunity, 50 years ago when heading to Viet Nam I was vaccinated for things I never heard of and I'm still kicking.
I did too, I guess they worked cause we are still here. Maybe parents should send their kids to a house that has the virus,,, like the good ol' days. >:(
I respect someones right to wait a while if they want to see if theres any adverse reactions as millions of people start to get the vaccine. That's reasonable. What's not reasonable is to not get the vaccine at all because they are afraid of some flu like side affects that go away. As the doc says, the other option is to gamble on getting covid and possible having severe symptoms or even death. Theres only one way to get past this pandemic and that's herd immunity. With the vaccine that can happen within a year. If we have to wait on enough people to get sick, its going to be many years of dealing with it. Many years of mask mandates. Many years of our elderly loved ones dying in nursing homes for no reason. They should get to die of old age and not of a horrible disease all alone.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 10, 2020, 10:12:36 AM
If we have to wait on enough people to get sick, its going to be many years of dealing with it. Many years of mask mandates. Many years of our elderly loved ones dying in nursing homes for no reason. They should get to die of old age and not of a horrible disease all alone.
I dont think you know the reality of nursing homes. Most people are admitted because a family cannot or will not do the care for their elders. Of these new admitants 65% will die in the first year mostly due to horrible diseases. Plus they die nearly all alone as most people cannot face their parents, spouse, or siblings suffering and severe debilitation.
I know all too well the reality of nursing homes, maybe better than most. Ive been a ff/emt for almost 29 years and have responded to probably thousands of calls at nursing homes. I see it first hand. I've also seen it as a relative. As bad as its always been, its worse now. We shouldn't rationalize it now and say that its always been bad and that means its ok for it to be worse now. These folks are captive and the only way covid comes in is from workers and new admits. Visitors are all but banned.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 10, 2020, 10:12:36 AM
I respect someones right to wait a while if they want to see if theres any adverse reactions as millions of people start to get the vaccine. That's reasonable. What's not reasonable is to not get the vaccine at all because they are afraid of some flu like side affects that go away. As the doc says, the other option is to gamble on getting covid and possible having severe symptoms or even death. Theres only one way to get past this pandemic and that's herd immunity. With the vaccine that can happen within a year. If we have to wait on enough people to get sick, its going to be many years of dealing with it. Many years of mask mandates. Many years of our elderly loved ones dying in nursing homes for no reason. They should get to die of old age and not of a horrible disease all alone.
I guess I'm the more callous person.
I just can't take that "leap of respect", as I'll call it, to agree that others have a right to not get the covid shot then infect someone else who may be down the line a ways to get their own shot after first in line folks.
Forget about covid and lets say someone doesn't get the regular seasonal flu shot, then gets sick from that. I view them in the similar way as I do fellow motorcycle riders who refuse to wear a helmet then tie up medical facilities, affect insurance rates, so on.
While I/we haven't made thousands of calls to nursing homes we have spent far more time there than we'd like to have given another choice. Of all of them, only one was well operated and a good place to reside. That was The Presbyterian Manor in Topeka, KS where my Mom lived and died. The rest were seriously in need of more than I care to talk about.
I don't, however feel the government should mandate the shots.
If Ebola was in our midst should the government mandate treatment?
I'm in agreement with you. A friend of mine is a physiologist who used to work for Pfizer in St Louis and still works for the pharma industry. He says he is going to wait a while to make sure that no seriously adverse side effects arise after thousands more people take the vaccine. He intends to get a vaccine eventually and in the meantime continue to exercise precautions for himself and his family. That's fine.
I also agree with you about the situations in certain nursing homes. Sadly the 2 homes that I respond to are not places where I would place my loved ones, but I have seen very nice and clean ones that I would consider.
I don't really feel the government should mandate a vaccine, but I have no problem with an employer mandating it. Either take the vaccine or you don't work here anymore. Your choice.
Quote from: donbj on December 10, 2020, 02:08:43 AM
Quote from: trapper on December 09, 2020, 11:03:09 PM
I saw on the national news about a minature electronic device being inplanted under the skin with the virus shot. Makes me nervous. Bad enough the cell phone tracks me but at least i can leave that home.
What news source was that?
I think someone was watching a X Files re-run....
As for potential side effects of the vaccine? We know from the Phase 3 testing that there are some. Some people report "Flu like symptoms" for a couple of days. None bad enough to need hospital care, and no one died. Is there a 1 in a million chance you could die? That can't be ruled out, because a million people haven't had the shots yet.
But if you catch the virus your chances of dying are maybe 1 in 200, up to 1 in 10 if you are old and sick.
Realistically it will be middle of next year before most of us get the opportunity of having the shots if they are distributed according to risk. By then millions will have been given and there will be a better idea of the actual risk. It's possibly not zero, but some very small number approaching zero.
I expect if you want to travel internationally in the near future you will need the vaccine as a condition of entering any other country. It's still your choice, either get the shots or stay home. Qantas airlines have already said that if you haven't had the shot (once it's available) that you wont be getting on one of their planes. Because the vaccine is only ~95%, there will still be 10-20 people on the plane that you could give the virus too. You having had the shot makes that 95% less likely to happen.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 10, 2020, 01:32:14 PM
I also agree with you about the situations in certain nursing homes. Sadly the 2 homes that I respond to are not places where I would place my loved ones, but I have seen very nice and clean ones that I would consider.
This month's AARP Bulletin has an interesting lead to its cover story on nursing homes. "Fewer than 1% of Americans live in long-term care facilities. But 40% of COVID-19 deaths have occurred there."
When my Drs tell me to roll up my sleeve I'll do it. The more folks that refuse means I might get moved up on the list. ;D
I mentioned a month or so ago that our governor issued a mask mandate. The numbers are in for the 7 day average for last week.
VA 28 per 100,000, NC-34, WV-54, KY-66, TN-69. My area of the state is the most problematic, we border all those states closely and are not playing well which raised the average for the state.
Doc called it the pneumatic smallpox?
In the Army I went through a vaccination line one time that remains in my memory bank. They were giving those air powered shots with an injection gun and this dumb ass turned his head away from me as he was trying to "shoot me" and it went sort of sideways and a minor cut in my upper arm, then he re-aimed and shot me properly.
Is that the pneumatic smallpox a vaccination or a medical term I have no clue about? :D
Without elaborating many more specific details, my wife has had several family members who received far less than stellar care in a nursing home. One was an uncle, now gone, who was near death from various types of neglect as she found him, and corrected the situation. That particular situation found it's way to the front page newspaper in Lexington, KY.
More recently, her aunt was in the "nursing home from hell" as we would both describe it from our visits. Like so many, it was owned by the same group of homes at another location that had been abusing her when she was removed and as a result went into the hospital who had called the abuse out, which we were involved with. It became nigh on impossible to place her as most of the homes, (not those for rich folks) were all owned by the same people and refused to accept her at first. Once a doctor who found her abuse had stepped into the picture they were sort of forced to take her in. Not that it was a great choice. Simple things such as a drink of water were often not provided.
Proper Covid-19 care I cannot begin to imagine in a place where they neglect to give you a drink, change you bed properly, wash you, etc.? Sadly a fact, many nursing homes seem to be owned by the same people.
My 96 yr old MIL we are near to close now to having spent her entire savings inspite of her having a nice monthly income from having been a postmaster, soon we'll be into her childrens money which they hope to recoup from the eventual sale of her home. meanwhile the effort is to keep in that home rather than give it to the government.
One of my Burlingame, Kansas cousins is now in an ICU bed with pneumonia and covid-19. He has diabetes and I fear the worst for him and his family-he's in his early 80's.
Get the shot when you can?
One step closer. The advisory board to the FDA voted to approve the Pfizer vaccine. FDA has told Pfizer that it will be approved, but they just need to create the warning labels and make sure of the dosing. Americans will be getting vaccinated no later than next week. More good news is that people were shown to have protection from the virus with the first dose, so even though the second dose comes 21-28 days later they already are being protected.
Not sure that is a medical term, but we were talking about ways to administer. so i was trying to be complete including the gun. what is funny, is I got it in grade school the whole school lined up in the gym, just like the military. I have the little circular scar to my L upper arm. was commenting on the poss. small injectable micro robot or sensor, or tracking device. was clarifying when I said they were "all" injected with a syringe and a needle. :o :)
Jet injector - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_injector)
Brent that is wonderful news! Glad to hear you are on the mend! Answer to prayers!
Don,
I stopped in convince store in Hillsville Va. yesterday to get some fuel and to use the bathroom. I had to wait a bit. I noticed out of 19 people in and out 3 had on masks. I was shocked. 10 were sitting around a table meeting. Similar observation in a Floyd Va. location most in the store had no mask including those behind the counter. Hard to see why people don't follow the mandates in place.
Looks like the vaccine is coming here very soon.
Florida taps Pinellas County for Pfizer?s COVID-19 vaccine pilot program | WFLA (https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/pinellas-county-will-participate-in-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-pilot-program/?utm_source=newsfore&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=4283&tqid=kKagPSJ4XUsBP0jsRa4m5pg2qHmvyhKnSYw.J3ex)
Beginning here by mid next week. 8)
Quote from: samandothers on December 11, 2020, 09:40:47 AMDon,
I stopped in convince store in Hillsville Va. yesterday to get some fuel and to use the bathroom. I had to wait a bit. I noticed out of 19 people in and out 3 had on masks. I was shocked. 10 were sitting around a table meeting. Similar observation in a Floyd Va. location most in the store had no mask including those behind the counter. Hard to see why people don't follow the mandates in place.
The state positivity rate is 10.8%, Carroll County, Hillsville, is running 32.6%. The southwest district is running 24.2%. This is the hot spot in the state.
Those people are straining our hospitals and resources and are killing us. I pretty much view them in the same light as any other drunk driver.
The governor tightened it up another notch, which won't make a difference here. He also shared the mayor of Hillsville's recent facebook post.
Part of it; "I bragged how I hadn't let this virus change my life. Well I can tell you it has now. I'm sharing this so maybe someone with the mindset I had will give this virus the respect it deserves."
We need to act right, not spread foolish rumors and fear mongering, wear a mask and get vaccinated when its available. It's in everyone's best interest, including our own.
I guess the first vaccine was officially approved for use by FDA last night and is beint sent out. It's not approved for use in those younger than 16, so my kids will not be getting this one. I imagine the next one will be the same. They have no data on how it reacts with kids.
fortunately they are at low risk as well.
Just got a call from a family friend to tell us that her Husband died this morning as a result of covid19 complications during emergency surgery for a brain bleed last night. He was 79. He and his wife had both tested positive for Covid19 on Monday and he was admitted to hospital late yesterday afternoon and went into surgery just after midnight.
That's terrible and I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. So many folks dying "before their time". Hopefully she will make a full recovery.
Sad news. Much too often heard these days.
Sounds like Covid claimed Charley Pride today😥
Another update from Hershey Medical Center.
(https://www.pennstatehealth.org/sites/default/files/inline-images/HEA-15547-20-134218-COVID-19-Update-_w_Holy-Spirit_1211-Final.png)
Barb has a few allergy issues, but none of them life-threatening. We're both going to get the vaccine as soon as it's available. Pfizer has released their product monograph (https://covid-vaccine.canada.ca/info/pdf/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-pm1-en.pdf) in Canada so we know what we're likely to experience.
The original volunteers for the various vaccine trials will be tracked continuously so we'll be getting better and better information.
Pfizer's storage requirements (-70 °C / -94 °F) and short shelf life means we likely won't have a chance to get a shot for a while. The Moderna vaccine can be stored in regular deep freeze and has a much better shelf life. I expect it will be approved very soon.
Quote from: barbender on December 12, 2020, 08:21:32 PM
Sounds like Covid claimed Charley Pride today😥
I flat wore out my Charley Pride cassette tape! He had one of the best renditions of Bobby McGee I ever heard. I can hear him now singing-"anybody goin to San Antone"? or Caliga the wooden indian, or many more.
Thanks Brucer, my wife will likely want to read that whole monograph to check for allergy indications. I will share it with her.
Yes, he sure could sing. My favorite of his is Roll on Mississippi.
My grandmother sure liked his singing, mom to. Grandmother had a couple records, never seen mom with any. I found it to be pleasant enough. I'm more into older pop music of 30-40 years ago. ;D
Charley had a very interesting life story, anyone that isn't familiar with it should check it out some time.
A 66 yo man was brought to the ER 10 days ago with a hip fracture. Needed to be fixed and I was on call. He tested + for Covid. Admitted, seen by Medicine and Anesthesia. Had a few comorbidities, but was relatively asymptomatic from the virus. Anesthesia said putting him to sleep for the surgery made him high risk, and they suggested waiting for his Covid to clear. (by this they meant that he turn Covid -. We actually don't know much about the effects of Covid in patients who undergo anesthesia and we had no idea how long he had been +).
Tried to fix him Monday, but Anesthesia still resisted as he remained +. Scheduled for Friday (2 days ago) and a pre-op chest X-ray was obtained Thursday as a screening exam. The patient had minimal pulmonary symptoms, yet his chest X-ray was awful....near white out. It was very odd to see the degree of disease on the chest X-ray and yet see how seemingly well this man was doing. Surgery cancelled for Friday. Now he's much worse, he's in the ICU and intubated. Prognosis is poor.
Medically, we wonder if we should have performed his surgery early, as we routinely try to do on hip fracture patients. Would that anesthesia have hastened his disease, or would we have actually made him better by increasing his mobility after the hip was fixed? Should we put the OR at risk for catching the virus?
This is an insidious virus. Not really seen anything like it. Be careful out there.
it is a conundrum. had you fixed it and he got worse, you would be questioning if the surgery had stressed him and made him worse. you will never know. first do no harm. best regards! DOC.
My brother-in law passed Friday night. He went into the hospital having difficulty breathing. Put into ICU that night and was Life Flighted the next night to
U of Md medical center. Was put into an induced coma and never came back out. Got lung clots and then bleeding on the brain. The respirator was removed and he passed an hour and half latter. 12 days. This is a nasty virus.
My thoughts are with you and your family.
LogPup, I am very sorry to hear about your loss. Tragic.
My condolences to you and your family LogPup
D
Thank you. He was 54 years old. I know we see the numbers on the news but it seems until it's close to home it's not real.
My wife and I have been very cautious about wearing mask and hand sanitizing. I know the people at U of MD Medical Center
were very nice and helpful in any way they could be.
David
Sorry for your family's loss David.
Sorry for your loss, logdog
Quote from: barbender on December 13, 2020, 11:28:50 AM
Charley had a very interesting life story, anyone that isn't familiar with it should check it out some time.
The Charley Pride obituary to read is by- Mark Kennedy, Associated Press, New York.
I already knew many facets of Charlie's life story as we are baseball freaks at my house and country music fans too. FWIW, I grew up with & around the game, played and coached, as have our three sons who still follow it closely.
The things I found interesting in the obit were the racial aspect, especially given the racial climate and much of what I'll call "clatter" surrounding race in America.
His Sledge, Mississippi (where they grew up) sister is quoted along with Charlies reaction to her, r.e., race and his posture on skin color, and the human realities of racial difference. Also as relates to his being the singular, at first- "colored", then "Negro", then "black", then finally "African-American" Country Music singer for many years. The man had a very balanced approach to who he was and always came across to be a very mellow, warm person to me. His personality permeated his music.
A local to my area of KY country/folk/bluegrass young musician named Tyler Childers, from Lawrence Co., KY, recently gave a racial dialogue video on his website recently which is far different than Charlie Prides take.
Childers openly shares his thoughts on the various "activities" r.e. race in our more recent news stories in America. Best that I leave that for you to watch and make your own conclusions as touchy stuff.
Music matters even more during this covid time.
Well, the vaccine race is on! I'm afraid it won't matter much personally to my cousin's condition in ICU with covid.
In my todays emails I got one from United HealthCare (the KY Teacher Retirement Medicare Supplemental provider we get here with our retirement plan) r.e., their "Well At Home Plan" kit I can send for free.
It consists of: #1- electronic thermometer, #2- pkg of Tamiflu cold medicine and #3- a covid-19 at home test kit along with #4- their hotline # to gain immediate doctor access for advice and diagnosis.
I got the call today to go in and get my Covid vaccination. I had to stand in line 6' apart with my mask on and wait my turn.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_6819.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1607979482)
The little girl ahead of me said that she did not feel a thing!! :o
I bet the one behind her did though!!!
smiley_eek_dropjaw
YEP!!! Maybe not pain, but at least felt.
I think I want to send some sort of prize to the first person here who actually gets a vaccine.
I'll let Mike B take my shot 😂😂😂
Quote from: Magicman on December 14, 2020, 04:01:54 PM
I got the call today to go in and get my Covid vaccination. I had to stand in line 6' apart with my mask on and wait my turn.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_6819.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1607979482)
The little girl ahead of me said that she did not feel a thing!! :o
I did a double take on that one 😂😂
Quote from: kantuckid on December 14, 2020, 07:26:42 AM
In my todays emails I got one from United HealthCare (the KY Teacher Retirement Medicare Supplemental provider we get here with our retirement plan) r.e., their "Well At Home Plan" kit I can send for free.
It consists of: #1- electronic thermometer, #2- pkg of Tamiflu cold medicine and #3- a covid-19 at home test kit along with #4- their hotline # to gain immediate doctor access for advice and diagnosis.
Got my kit a while back. The day I got the kit I also got a text asking me to take my temperature for their records. Went ahead and recorded it for the next three days.
Quote from: Magicman on December 14, 2020, 04:01:54 PM
I got the call today to go in and get my Covid vaccination. I had to stand in line 6' apart with my mask on and wait my turn.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_6819.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1607979482)
The little girl ahead of me said that she did not feel a thing!! :o
"Who" calls you? For that matter, I thought first line providers and residential living seniors got em first?
Not old farts out running loose... :D
Quote from: kantuckid on December 15, 2020, 07:15:09 AM
Quote from: Magicman on December 14, 2020, 04:01:54 PM
I got the call today to go in and get my Covid vaccination. I had to stand in line 6' apart with my mask on and wait my turn.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_6819.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1607979482)
The little girl ahead of me said that she did not feel a thing!! :o
"Who" calls you? For that matter, I thought first line providers and residential living seniors got em first?
Not old farts out running loose... :D
I think he got "The Call" from Bubba's all night Tire Shop, Hair Salon, Laundromat, and First Aid clinic. ;D :D
"The call" my cousins wife got yesterday was from the hospital ICU and came not long before my cousin died from covid-19, they had a weblink of some type for his family to talk with him some, not long before he passed.
The irony of the vaccine to save us from covid as many are still dying is sad indeed! She told me this a.m. that he'd have gotten the vaccine, no doubt.
My student dentist told me yesterday that they get the vaccine soon.
I'm so sorry man. Sadly, there will be many more who die just short of getting a vaccine.
The first St Louisan not part of the study received the vaccine yesterday. A doctor at a local hospital.
And so it begins. Too late for many, but just in time for many more.
So I had asked the question earlier in this thread if a person had got Covid do they get or need the vaccine.
I had a telemed call with my pulmonary doc last week and ask her the same question. She had Covid 6 weeks ago and I said I hear a lot of people are sceptical and are taking the wait and see approach and she said she has heard plenty of the same. She then told me that when the vaccine becomes available she will be the first in line to get it if that makes me feel any better about it. She then said yes get the vaccine. say_what
Brent
I have read a few articles on that subject. Of course, having had the virus, you have natural immunity, but the doctors who were quoted said to still get the vaccine when it becomes available. It can only strengthen your immunity.
I think you have to wait 3 months
In a pandemic does the law in no way figure into getting the covid shot? I suppose there's too much politics involved to discuss, but it does seem contrary to close a business and people lose everything they've built and saved and worked for along with lost jobs yet those actions do get mandates.
If it's for the greater good of the entire population on earth to get people vaccinated there does IMO some merit exists for mandating the shot too, along with all this other stuff?
There is law and precedent that supports employers and schools mandating vaccines, but none for the government to mandate a vaccine. The other point is that with the vaccines only being approved as emergency measures and not yet full approval, employers may not be able to mandate them yet.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 15, 2020, 02:40:40 PM
I think you have to wait 3 months
Good to know. Thanks doc.
Brent
I got the first official notification I've had about getting vaccine. In MO our plan for who gets vaccine is a 3 step process like most states. Phase 1a is hospital and other patient facing medical people, plus nursing home residents. I think that includes my wife who is technically patient facing being an audiologist. Phase 1b includes emergency services, which is me. The State Bureau of EMS chief advocated for EMS to be in 1a, but the state followed CDC guidelines which did not include EMS. Another odd thing is that new standing orders for the pandemic is that EMS can administer the vaccine. I don't expect that to happen, but interesting that its included in the plan.
I just got mine (covid vaccine) an hour ago. I am noticing facial hair growth and it is all white. smiley_old_guy but it has been that way for a few years. :) did not hurt, no immediate side effects. I will keep you posted.! :christmas:
I was hoping you would win the prize and you did. I'm not sure what the prize will be yet. That's good news.
I'm sure that hair turning gray or white is caused by marriage, at least in 90+% of my friends there was no gray before marriage. I am ready and willing to get the vaccine, at 69 and overweight I don't know if I will get any priority or not. Also don't know if I'll be notified by regular healthcare or VA, to early to guess.
you might let the VA and or your doc know you are interested. they may add you to a list. that is prob. the part that is not organized by the government, and all clinics are trying to develop queries that will help them identify and contact at risk groups. so if you do not easily get found in the computer, might be some delay. the question over who is willing to get it, is also out there. if you let them know up front, it may get you a place in line earlier.
I did the online calculator to see where I fall in the line.
I have 298,000,000 million people ahead of me.
Lol.
Just a warning after perusing a few posts. DO NOT bring politics into this topic.
Sorry @Jeff (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1) if I did.
The advisory panel to FDA recommended unanimously to approve Moderna vaccine for emergency use. FDA should approve it tomorrow and effectively double the numbers of doses of vaccines available.
A little more good news is that it turns out the vials of Pfizer that are officially 5 doses have more like 6 or 7 doses. Apparently they have been discarding the extra amount, but will start being able to use it all. The only exception is that they can't combine what's left from 2 vials to make a whole dose because of the risk of contamination. Still, this could increase the supply by almost 40%.
I am a little confused. This morning on the local news they were talking about the vaccine that is being administered in our area and said that it will only fully protect many for between 2 and 6 months after the second dose is given. Guess I was totally wrong thinking one dose would last a lifetime.
I think the only thing they can agree on is that it will not last forever. That's one of the reasons they need so many people to take it. It will likely become like the flu shot and you should get it every year.
Quote from: 21incher on December 17, 2020, 09:04:09 PM
I am a little confused. This morning on the local news they were talking about the vaccine that is being administered in our area and said that it will only fully protect many for between 2 and 6 months after the second dose is given. Guess I was totally wrong thinking one dose would last a lifetime.
How long the immunity lasts isn't known because the vaccine is so new. The testing so far has shown it creates pretty good immunity, but how fast the protection wears off isn't known. Could be months, could be years? No ones had it for 12 months to see if it still works (or not). But once you get enough people immune the virus will stop circulating, so it's less critical if your individual immunity wanes.
It's also possible that booster shots might be needed, or a new and better vaccine deployed. Depending on how fast the vaccination program goes, and how quick the pandemic dies down.
Govt estimates here are that NZ's borders will remain restricted until maybe July next year, although vaccine is scheduled to be rolled out here in a couple of months, it's still going to take months more to get through most of the population.
QuoteThat's one of the reasons they need so many people to take it.
Agreed. If you can get ~90% of the population vaccinated before the first peoples immunity wears off, then the virus has nowhere to go, and pandemic is basically over. If you only get to 50%, and the first ones become vulnerable again, then the virus drags on, and booster shots are going to be needed. Those exact numbers simply aren't known, but either scenario can be dealt with. Obviously shutting down the virus sooner is the better outcome.
I agree, and we will know a lot more in 10 years. The thought is it may last a few years. the measured antibody may drop, but if your body has memory, it will respond faster, and you are less likely to get sick or die. If we can hit critical mass we will do better. It may be that we become experts during the pandemic, and will see sporadic outbreaks in the future. I can now look at a CXR and tell if someone has it. most of all other viruses look about the same on cxr. Many people probably think this is normal everyday stuff, but the response from the medical/pharmaceutical community has been exceptional. could have lost so many more, and had no light at the end of the tunnel.
I suppose because of this Covid, last week PatD and I both got a $500 "Debit Card" from Humana. It could only be used for specified medications plus doctor bills and co-pays. The hitch was that it has to be used before the end of 2020. No carry over. Since we pay our bills, this has been a "trip" to zero the cards.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_8785.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1608301543)
We are getting there. Yesterday's haul with only ~$171 left to spend.
It seems this virus can jump into wildlife and pets from what I've read.
Not sure it will go away completely even with everybody getting vaccinated, so it will likely be a yearly vaccine.
JJ
That's a good idea MM. That stuff will get used, won't it. Maybe hearing protection.
My wife, the audiologist with her private practice, got a huge deposit in her bank account that is apparently part of the Cares Act funding.
Yes, it has been known to be spread to dogs, cats and even a tiger at the zoo. I don't think they're worried about those animals being big spreaders of the virus. They figure it was from being too close to owners and handlers who were positive. No doubt that it will be around for quite a while. Just like polio, that is essentially eradicated in the US, it still pops up here and there around the globe.
MM, my tip of the days is to buy the Hall's Sugar free Honey cough drops. I might be an addict? ::) I've never smoked but those cough drops do me great what with my dust & pollen allergies! The fact is that they have the most menthol % of all they make!
After I leave behind dust, pollen and so on I do a daily nettie pot sinus rinse and then Rx sprays of azelastine then hour or so late I follow with flonase (by Rx as it's cheaper than OTC flonase). Same for omneprazole for that matter. The drops "clear up the mess" left from the nettie pot use.
$500 must have made a drug store real happy to see that one coming... :D
Buy more alcohol-my wife mixes her own glass cleaner from partly alcohol. We also stuff shop towels into bacteris wipe cans and pour alcohol on them -saving the world one day at a time?
I had one of my firefighters test positive this morning, so I had to send him home and quarantine 3 more firefighters from that engine house. I'm having to mandatory guys to work thru the holidays. I'm hoping my guy doesn't get too sick and that the others can test negative in a week or so and come back to work. The vaccine can't get here fast enough. 2020 has been the most stressful situation in my 28 year career in the fire service. I hope you guys all stay safe and that the vaccine comes sooner than later.
New strain in London. Est. 70% more contagious. :(
Lock-down coming.
Which means, it's already loose, be safe out there.
The state of Maine is on a mandatory face covering when entering any business.
I work at a hardware store and most people are very nice about it. I only have to ask less than 5 a day to please put a face mask on, we supply them.
We got a call from my brother in Fla today that our 90 y/o mom has Covid. She wasn't feeling well and they called the paramedics who took her to nearby hospital, found she had some pneumonia then tested here for Covid and was positive. They are transporting her to a big hospital in Pensacola where I guess they have more equipment and probably an isolation ward of some kind. We will know more later this afternoon I hope.
sorry to hear that Howard, and I hope she does well. the medium sized hospitals like ours, tend to fill up, and have to transfer to a higher or equal level of care.
Doc, Thanks. The local hospital is not much more than a big clinic and while convenient it can't offer many services the bigger guys do. We will keep you posted.
Quote from: thecfarm on December 20, 2020, 09:58:31 AM
The state of Maine is on a mandatory face covering when entering any business.
I work at a hardware store and most people are very nice about it. I only have to ask less than 5 a day to please put a face mask on, we supply them.
Probably because you're so close to Canada, eh. Missouri is a whole different ballgame.
Well I had the guy yesterday who tested positive. Today 4 more guys tested positive. I'm scrambling to staff the FD for the next 2 weeks. We are going to have to cancel all vacations for the rest of the year. Those of us who are left are working a lot to say the least. The only good part about that is that we are paying double time for all OT.
I'm sorry to hear of your mom, Howard. Hopefully the big hospital can get her on the road to recovery.
We just drove to Birmingham, AL to spend holiday time with our two grandkids there and drove back yesterday-the very next day. Our 18 mo old came down with a high fever and it was decided that we abort the visit. Still waiting on his test results today.
Not to suggest a doomsday result but my 80 yr old KS cousin lasted like 3 days once he got covid and placed in ICU.
Went in Walmart late to avoid a crowd driving back from AL and saw several younger couples w/o masks. Makes me wonder how many like them have tested positive then after some quarantine days they decide they and the rest of us are safe to be around each other, mask or not?
Got a knee steroid shot on Friday and the medical staff said only the ER folks have been vaccinated at UK medical facilities.
What about the realities of the age 75 guideline for a vaccination-using my own e.g., where I'm 77 but my wife is only 72, is it logical to vaccinate me but not her at the same time? I'm certainly not medically trained but seems illogical to me? If I was, say raising my grandkids, as many are now, I could see the rationale for them getting it later than the grandparents.
So sorry to hear about your mom Howard. Prayers for a speedy recovery.
Batt. Chief Rob be safe.
My dad spent another week in the hospital for breathing troubles and last Thursday night they transferred him to a nursing home at his request. We just weren't able to care for him at my home the way he needs to be cared for and he knew that so he asked the social worker at the hospital to find him a room at one of the local homes. The big issue is he's had covid and he's gonna test positive for quite some time and most nursing homes won't accept anyone that's testing positive regardless of the fact that they're no longer contagious. I can't say as I blame them but it sure can make it difficult to get someone in a home. I also was very concerned because he told me if he has to go to a nursing home "It's time to cash in the chips". Well I talked to him yesterday and he is getting along great. He said the staff is great and he has great care. Only downfall is I can't go see him as all nursing homes are locked down.
What a year it has been. 2020 can't end soon enough.
Everyone stay safe and healthy,
Brent
that is the debate, do you vaccinate the at risk, or the people around them. they have to have a plan, since the amount available is limited. we vaccinated face to face front line phase 1 a folks last week, about 260 people. we get 2nd doses in a few weeks for 2nd in the series, and we expect 1700 doses of Moderna this week. House keeping is considered front line as well, as they are at risk, and believe it or not, getting a room cleaned is the most common delay in getting folks to a room in the hospital, and that slows the ED. so others are stuck in the waiting room waiting to get in the ED. big chain reaction. There will come a point the everyone has either had the virus or the vaccine. we have leveled off here, but still having a 50% positive rate in testing. So in the nursing homes, we are vaccinating all staff, and residents as we are able. several of the nursing homes, have all resident having tested positive. Our hospice house was closed due to cases, and staff out. so you have to be tested to get in. so do you immunize a terminally ill patient, expected to die soon? lots of ethical questions, but we cannot spend a year making those decisions.
I just feel lucky that I tested negative about 1.5 weeks ago. But time stands still for no one...we shall see what the ultimate outcome is.
Well, all my guys seem to be doing no worse than yesterday, so I think they will all do fine. We have stepped up our prevention here within the FD. Social distancing in the stations, masks whenever we leave individual offices or bunkrooms. Mornings at shift change no one is allowed to converse with the off going shift. If there is information to pass along it will be done by phone after leaving the firehouse. I guess we should have done it long ago.
My dad is 77 and mom is 70. I'm sure lots of couples in that age range fit the husband 75 or over and wife younger. If they just went ahead and vaccinated both, there wouldn't be enough to vaccinate all the better halves. As Doc said, gotta draw lines in the sand and keep moving them back as more vaccine becomes available. A local hospital got in hot water as they were vaccinating hospital admins who are admittedly older and more susceptible to severe sickness, but these folks also have zero exposure to the sick people. 25 year old nurses who are treating very contagious folks everyday were told they have to wait.
Bill
I have a FB post post from a close family friend. ( his mom is my dads 2nd cousin) He is Trauma Doctor in the LA Region and he is a pure blooded Canadian so much so that there is only one team in the NHL and that is the Montreal Canadiens. His dad is as french as Quebec could ever be. I only have it in PDF and will try to up load it. if any body can help me out I would appreciate it. It would be good if it could actually be posted in full text here on the site. It only a bit over page.
This young Doctor has 2 young kids and a wife he hasn't seen in person for months and yet he goes in every day and works over time and days off just because he can't stand to see the suffering on so many levels. he and his team dont look at this as an obligation! They see it as an HONOR to serve the suffering people out of a love for their fellow humans, regardless of age, gender, color, political views, race, ethnicity or religion. COVID doesn't ask any of those questions or care and neither do the people on his team that are in the muddy, dirty, stinking trenches of this battle.
No one deserves too see 3 to 5 people a day die because he is just doing his job.
Also His mother is a Nurse, Sister is a Nurse. Brother inlaw is a nurse, Brother is Para Medic and Sister inlaw is a neo natal nurse. The entire Family is on the front line EVERY DAY!
Darcy was my sons Best Man and my son was his Best Man!
I pray Gods protection and Grace remain with him and his team, and ALL of his Family EVEY minute of every day!!
Thanks for posting. Very good read. My hat is certainly off to your friend there. Our daughter works at Levine Children's Hospital in Charlotte NC and said they are losing another wing to the adult hospital next door (They have a connecting walkover). She said they have cancelled everything except emergency surgery and are using the surgical rooms as back up ICU space because they have the machines/hook-ups there for the ICU equipment too.
So far my mom has not had fever or BP issues and the doctor finally saw her today and is starting her on antibiotics in about an hour for her pneumonia and kidney tract infection. I am not sure if the pneumonia came from her covid or that is just a collateral issue. If all goes well and that works as hoped she may be released in a few days.
Good news Howard. I hope she continues to improve.
How true Bandit, I wish everyone would just stay home for the holidays this year. I expect there will be a lot of retirement in the field when this is over.
A neighbor called, it looks like we'll be getting a couple of new dogs in the next day or two from up the road, not the way I wanted to but they need a home.
My District Fire Chief sent a message to me and the other 2 Asst. Chiefs that came down from our county EMA director that they have 500 doses of the Moderna vaccine ready for Fire and EMS personnel and wanted a head count of individuals wanting the vaccine. So I text my Pulmonary doc to call me. She's the one that told me if it made me feel any better she'll be the first in line when it's available. She called and I asked her if I should get it. I mentioned hearing I may need to wait 90 days. She said yes to the vaccine but also said yes to having to wait the 90 days and she'll have to do the same since she had covid back in late October.
So I guess I wait until my time is due.
This evening I received an email from my EMA director and in that email it stated that if you had covid it's ok to get the vaccine as long as you have no more symptoms and are out of your quarantine period.
I'm still a bit confused but I think I'll follow my Pulmonary doctors advice and get it after my 90 days are up.
Brent
Its good that the vaccine is becoming available to first responders. Sounds like a good idea to wait a while for the vaccine, Brent. 90 days sounds a little excessive, but you should have some pretty good immunity going on from having had the covid. I suspect I will be hearing something like that in our county within a week or two as well.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 21, 2020, 10:39:36 PM
Its good that the vaccine is becoming available to first responders. Sounds like a good idea to wait a while for the vaccine, Brent. 90 days sounds a little excessive, but you should have some pretty good immunity going on from having had the covid. I suspect I will be hearing something like that in our county within a week or two as well.
I called my EMA director this evening which is also one of my Capt's and told him what my doc said. He told me he's only passing on the info he got from the county health department which my doc told me she had a conference call with along with the local hospital and the state health department and that was their recommendations. I think some wires are getting crossed somewhere down the line but I'm still gonna hold off until my time is due.
Brent
Howard, hope your mom stays well.
Quote from: Don P on December 21, 2020, 09:24:37 PM
Good news Howard. I hope she continues to improve.
How true Bandit, I wish everyone would just stay home for the holidays this year. I expect there will be a lot of retirement in the field when this is over.
A neighbor called, it looks like we'll be getting a couple of new dogs in the next day or two from up the road, not the way I wanted to but they need a home.
We traveled but thinking we were OK. Our son and his wife have been home other than grocery trips, 4 yr old GD has been in quarantine 10+ days from pre-school before we arrived and her 18 mo brother the same.
So we drove all the way down from E KY to Birmingham, 18 mo GS get a high fever and is taken to get checked out and tested. We drove down on Sat. then back on Sunday and still waiting to hear if he's positive. The pediatrician's nurse said in her opinion he's either got strep or covid as his temp was too high for just the fact he's teething.
Yes, it seemed to be a safe trip? We even avoided entering fuel up stops along the way.
It was not the fun trip we'd hoped for nor do we know yet if we or our kids a re safe?
Then there is that son's twin brother, wife and three young kids-all chomping at the bit in quarantine in TN and thinking they are coming to see us for a white Christmas. If we come up positive or the AL bunch is positive then the Christmas grinch has come to roost...
Our Texas son decided it was not the year to have Christmas with us or his girls in FL whom he normally brings our way.
So far, so good but in reality we are waiting for more covid info.
at that age, they have to get 100 regular viruses by the time they are 5 years old. I hope it is another virus. I am not a fan of blaming teething, as we start that before we are born and continues till we are twelve. good luck.
Yep on the teething- my wife is the oldest of a bunch of siblings spread in age plus raised our three- she said teethings never as high a temp as he had Sunday. He's some better but they are anxiously waiting still for the test results on covid. Our entire holiday is on hold for now...
My wife bakes and decorates for days on end for Christmas and not easy to walk away from seeing our GK's for sure. Even harder for them as they've been at home too much this year. Fact that snows predicted and they were really excited as sledding is superb at my house.
we have a pcr we use with kids, and it tests for 22 different viruses, so it tests for covid, influenza A & B, and RSV, and another 18 so you get an alternate diagnosis if present. The problem has been availability of all testing materials since covid.
Our daily update on mom is they put her on antibiotics, IV I think, last night and today took her off the IV and will put her on oral antibiotics. Still no fever, BP issues and her sugar seems good. They think in 4 days or less they should release her if she continues as she is now. We're keeping our fingers crossed.
I thought about asking if they could assign her to @doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) as a patient but I am not that mad at him right now. I would not want her as a patient and I should send her doctor and nurses all a sympathy card instead of a Christmas card.
That's funny, Howard😊 Reminds me of my late Grandmother, some of the nurses loved her, others I swear I could see them stepping back from having their hands around her throat when I stepped into the room😂
Good deal, Howard.
@WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) I am sure it runs in the family! :christmas:
I was at our county tax guy today and he, his wife and two kids have had covid. The man is 50 and still very active-plays in a basketball league when not covid times. His wife has not needed hospitalization but very tired to extent she cannot work, etc. They had to ship their kids to relatives while they were dealing with this. He says just of late he's had several body aches that he's never experienced before and was using an ice pack on his wrist today at his office and said he'd don't nothing to warrant a sprain or whatever.
Hey Howard-did your Mom come that way or did you play a role in turning her into a hard case? :D
If I have covid it didn't make the orange I just ate taste bad or the homemade fudge either...
My 77 year old left shoulder is currently rebelling against too many chainsaw pulls-maybe it's the cables inside need greased up? Back to foot on the saw then pull regimen.
My wife just called me and said she just received word she can go to the local hospital tonight and get the vaccine. As a patient facing healthcare worker she is eligible to get it now. She said the same hospital will be giving it to first responders next week. The hospital that is closer to our house and my fire department is part of the same hospital system. I'm hoping that all hospitals in the system will be welcoming first responders next week.
Well, I was able to call and talk to Mom a little. I am not sure how much she actually hears but that is normal. She seemed to think they were going to release her tomorrow. My brother told me they have started her on corticosteroids (?) and sounded like they were going to do that for 4 days so I think she is confused on her release date and treatment.
My brother said he was tired, has body ache and low grade fever and suspects he has it. If he has it I am confident my SIL has it and they likely spread it to their son and her mom and others so if you see a new spike in Covid with the epicenter 40 miles north of Pensacola you will know where it came from. My brother weighs over 450 lbs and has plenty of medical issues as does my SIL so I figure they are all high risk.
I had to go to town today to get a chainsaw part and stopped by WalMart for some other stuff. I was amazed at how many shoppers were not wearing their masks correctly. Many had them under their noses with just their mouth covered and several I saw had them under their chin providing no protection for them or others at all. To their credit all the staff I saw were wearing theirs correctly.
we were at a Menards today, and had a vary good tenacious flooring sales woman. the only thing that stopped her from talking, was seeing a couple pushing a stroller and no none had a mask on. she ran after them and came back and picked up where she left off.
Better than the residents of my wonderful town. Walmart tonight where there is a county wide mask mandate, at least 10% of folks in there had no masks. I think they do it just to feel like they are being rebels.
Everybody in WalMart had a mask they just were not really wearing them where they would do any good. No doubt before they got past the checker they had them on correctly or reasonably so but once in the store they pulled them down exposing themselves and others.
When I talked to Mom she said she did not know who she got it from. I tried to explain it to her it could have been a stranger in the grocery store or her hairdresser could have just worked on someone with it. I doubt it will ever soak in to her how these things spread. My brother and SIL should know better but seem too casual about it.
My daughter-in-law a NICU nurse was vaccinated today!
Our small and the only long term care nursing home in the county got their residents & staff covid shots yesterday/ tuesday. As I've read for several months CVS & Walgreens, both went on a hiring spree nationwide to deliver covid shots and collect the Medicare, etc., fees. It's been portrayed as if these two companies were doing this out of their great feelings for the country, so on.
Why not the thousands of people who already give vaccine shots and more on a daily basis such as a local pharmacy, (our nearest box Rx is a 50 mile RT) local clinic, local health department (ours who sits often mostly unused to begin with) not giving these shots?
Not long ago many of the local health care doctors, nurses and other staff were in fact laid off due to covid affecting medical services!
Today I read of KY nursing homes where Walgreens & CVS had gone out to give those shots. Every nursing home has staff who give shots every day! Is this not a monumental waste of health care people.
Quote from: kantuckid on December 23, 2020, 07:46:26 AM
Our small and the only long term care nursing home in the county got their residents & staff covid shots yesterday/ tuesday. As I've read for several months CVS & Walgreens, both went on a hiring spree nationwide to deliver covid shots and collect the Medicare, etc., fees. It's been portrayed as if these two companies were doing this out of their great feelings for the country, so on.
Why not the thousands of people who already give vaccine shots and more on a daily basis such as a local pharmacy, (our nearest box Rx is a 50 mile RT) local clinic, local health department (ours who sits often mostly unused to begin with) not giving these shots?
Not long ago many of the local health care doctors, nurses and other staff were in fact laid off due to covid affecting medical services!
Today I read of KY nursing homes where Walgreens & CVS had gone out to give those shots. Every nursing home has staff who give shots every day! Is this not a monumental waste of health care people.
I don't understand "collecting fees", from what I've seen on TV the vaccinations are supposed to be FREE!
There's an interesting article in front page of today's NYT's by a medical doctor about the vaccine becoming the next toilet paper shortage senario.
And of course it's not hard to read about some other weird choices of those who've been vaccinated already.
I tend not to clutter my mind with anything that's even borderline gossipy but when lifes are at stake, we can only hope for best possible outcomes.
Fees: Since back around October when the deals were made with CVS & Walgreens they ramped up to give the shots. They get the fees set forth under the federal payment schedules for vaccinations which is something like nearly $20 per shot, same as when I get a so-called "free" seasonal flu vaccine shot. When I mashed my finger some weeks back, I got no bill for that under my Medicaid supplemental either for the tetanus shot as mine had expired from 2003.
No doubt about it that the vaccines temperature and handling makes for special needs to distribute, plus decide who can ship it to where. It's an amazing thing but also very bewildering as it rolls out, so does the lady doc explain in todays article far better than can I.
This discussion could turn a sweet thing called the covid vaccine into a political menagerie quite fast and certainly not my intention!
My KY news shows what is the same highly discussed group? of people assembled by our KY guv as used for other covid decisions, now distributing the vaccine with little public knowledge passed out to the rest of us.
Hope for the best is all we can do.
There is definitely some inequity in vaccine distribution, but I think it was necessary for it to happen so fast after approval of the vaccine. I read that no one would be refused a vaccine for inability to pay, but that doesn't mean they aren't gonna charge for it. They will bill insurance and collect where they can.
several of the EUA drugs are "free" but you have to pay for the administration and pharmacy fees.
Like the old story- there are no free rides...
As a taxpayer, even in retirement with zero income from wages, I do pay for it all.
Some guy from the EU on the NYT's today was going on about how the vaccines are all "free" over there and distribution is equitable, etc., etc.. Like there's no income taxes in the rest of the world? :D
I love my country, happy to stay here and pay my taxes, well sort of on the taxes.
I never would have guessed that I'd work my ass off 6 & 7 days a week when younger for less money than I now pay in Fed taxes for no work at all.
yes that was the reason for the ""s. :). It is faster that the government (we who pay taxes) pays for the development and distribution, and no one is excluded due to ability to pay.
Another one of my guys is now down with Covid too. That makes 6 out of our total force of 30 down with covid right now. Several had it a few weeks ago. Won't be long and we'll have herd immunity.
Sounds like you have a pretty good start on that ffos. Hopefully it's the last of it before you guys get your turn at vaccine which should be soon.
Local drug store/grocery store casually opened a list for the corona virus. They are supposed to receive an allotment in 2-3 weeks. word of mouth got me to the store and signed myself and wife up. Apparently we are some where below 50 on the list. Called all my old friends here and told them about the list.
Hopefully it will work.
I think it works. Cindy got the vaccine last night and she hasn't gotten covid yet. Lol.
Well, my mom seems to be responding well. I talked with her again tonight and she just sounds tired. She seems to have a decent appetite and said the food was good but too salty as her doctor has her on a low salt diet. I suspect the dietician has her records and they have taken that into consideration. It still sounds like she has a couple more days there.
My younger brother was tested after a confusing day and being sent him then told to come back. He is positive and called from he Brewton Ala ER and sounds like they will admit him tonight. He is high risk as he weighs over 450 lbs and many medical issues. He drove himself to the hospital so I guess his wife will take him anything she can that he needs tomorrow and get tested herself. Of course she can't go see him but I guess if she has the virus too maybe they can share a room. I will be very surprised if my SIL mom does not end up with it. She went in today for other problems but was negative and only dehydrated. The old lady is 95 and her daughter, my SIL, has other health risks too. We will see if they can pull out of this.
EDIT/UPDATE: My brother just called back and said the ER said his breathing was okay so they sent him home with some cold medicine and with some Tylenol for body aches (which he says he won't take) so evidently they decided admission not warranted. Hopefully that is a good sign. Sounds better than him being in the horsepistol.
On the earlier postings I like the idea of the special teams going around giving the vaccines. That looks to me like the most accurate and fastest way to get the most people vaccinated. Yes, they are tons of people who can give injections but the worst thing would be if they accidently mishandle and damage the vaccine then inject something that will not work giving the patient a false sense of security putting them and others at risk. Also if that happens a good vaccine might get a bad rep and others might be reluctant to take it.
I worked all over the world and got medicines in some real dumps in remote pharmacies in Africa, MidEast and South America and survived them all. The hardest place I ever lived and worked to get treatment or medicine was Norway. Great country, great medical care but with socialized medicine you just about had to go to see the doctor to get an aspirin. There were very few OTC medicines available. They were very concerned about antibiotic abuse and you had to be on death's door to get them. In Saudi, Africa or South America I would go tell the "Chemist" or Framacia what I wanted and they'd give it to be. It might be killing a fly with a sledge hammer but by granny when I hit that fly he did not get up and buzz me again. You did have to read the contra indications and be careful as they did not ask you about allergies or such. "You say you have these symptoms? Take this pill."
The freezers for the Pfizer vaccine arrived in NZ today.
Covid-19: Ultra-cold vaccine freezers arrive in Auckland | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/123803530/covid19-ultracold-vaccine-freezers-arrive-in-auckland)
Going to be well into next year before the vaccine arrives, but I can understand it being sent to places where people are currently dying as a higher priority.
From what I have read the Pfizer vaccine needs ~ -70C for long term storage, but will keep for maybe a week in a regular clinic freezer, then a day once it's thawed out to administer. So that's workable in terms of distribution. Needs a bit of planning and co-ordination, but nothing impossible.
I think the speed of the operation is going to be limited as much by the productions and distribution side of things, not the number of staff on the ground. There are factors like how to make enough of the toughened glass vials that can handle the low temps (normal glass will shatter)
NZ plan is to distribute to normal Drs and Clinics who are going to be responsible for arranging their own patients getting the shots.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on December 23, 2020, 07:33:28 PM
Local drug store/grocery store casually opened a list for the corona virus. They are supposed to receive an allotment in 2-3 weeks. word of mouth got me to the store and signed myself and wife up. Apparently we are some where below 50 on the list. Called all my old friends here and told them about the list.
Hopefully it will work.
IMO, based on news items, Texas has one of the more logical vaccine plans as far as first providers, vulnerable seniors, etc..
It does seem rather odd though to have the "list" being done word of mouth? We all know there are seniors who get lost in the shuffle if they don't have kids or neighbors as is common. Even in my own family, I had an aunt in CA who had little contact with her own kids, my Uncle died long before she did and mostly little contact with the real world. Sadly, lots of people get lost in old age. lets hope there's a plan to locate them. Many are said to be afraid to leave their homes right now.
No doubt you're right Kantuckid. Information about who can get it and when has been slow to disseminate. I think that's partly because those who should know don't know/haven't been informed. My local county health department was completely left out of the loop. Good news is that they just announced that they will be having vaccine within a month and expect to be giving shots before end of January. I don't know who will be eligible at that point. Will it be for first responders and elderly? Will it be for anyone who wants it? As discussed earlier my dad is 77 and mom 70. Dad will be eligible the same time I am as a first responder. Will I be able to take my dad with me when I get it? I'm kind of glad that my mill is down. I'm imagining a time table that has me and dad getting at least our first shots, if not the second dose before I get the mill up and running again. To work with dad without having to wear a mask would be great. Of course, I may have to take him fishing before that. I haven't gone fishing with him in over a year. That hasn't happened since I was able to go fishing.
Does anyone know how the accounting for the second dose will be handled? If the company is producing X number of doses per day at some point when the second dose is due, the daily production would go toward second doses and there would be a large reduction in first doses available. Or will production be ramped up to cover it by that point? I haven't seen any discussion of the logistics of that issue.
Doug in SW IA
I wonder if the ones with log term conditions, like me with COPD, be up on the list to get it before others?
Quote from: dougtrr2 on December 24, 2020, 08:04:49 AM
Does anyone know how the accounting for the second dose will be handled? If the company is producing X number of doses per day at some point when the second dose is due, the daily production would go toward second doses and there would be a large reduction in first doses available. Or will production be ramped up to cover it by that point? I haven't seen any discussion of the logistics of that issue.
Doug in SW IA
The Navy Admiral, asst HHS sec, Brett Giror, MD who we see on the news now and then- older guy with gray hair- said recently that they hold the 2nd doses in readiness to match/meet the needs to whats already been injected.
FWIW, he was on Martha Mc Callum last nite and It truly pleased me to see him call attention to and talk down some political rumor material that's been out in the so-called news cycles. He really has his stuff together IMO and talks facts. .
Quote from: Ianab on December 24, 2020, 12:15:28 AM
The freezers for the Pfizer vaccine arrived in NZ today.
Covid-19: Ultra-cold vaccine freezers arrive in Auckland | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/123803530/covid19-ultracold-vaccine-freezers-arrive-in-auckland)
From what I have read the Pfizer vaccine needs ~ -70C for long term storage, but will keep for maybe a week in a regular clinic freezer, then a day once it's thawed out to administer. So that's workable in terms of distribution.
-70C is -95F!!! I've been wondering about the units used to store it. I did refrigeration for 20 years in a previous life. Anything that cold is a tall order and not a typical or mass produced unit--at least not in the U.S.
Quote from: azmtnman on December 24, 2020, 10:53:48 AMAnything that cold is a tall order and not a typical or mass produced unit--at least not in the U.S.
I worked with a guy for a few years that his previous employer was a bio-tech pharma group. He was the facility manager and would get alarms whenever the bank of freezers would deviate from there extreme set points. He had a big bank of backup generators, tested regularly, ready and waiting for power disruptions. Huge sums of money invested on what was in the freezers.
the folks that got Pfizer dose 1 , is supposed to get Pfizer for the second dose, and that is accounted for as 2 doses allocated. yes some folks without a doc, may fall through the cracks, but should be able to report to a clinic and get on the list.
I just read an article on the CBC news web site, Reporting that there are now 2 more virulent strains of the virus. One In England and a second in South Africa.
Will the vaccines cover them? So far the scientists are saying they "generally satisfied" that the one in England will be covered, BUT they don't have enough data yet to unequivocally declare that as a factual statement.
The one in South Africa? ZREO data as it is only a couple of days since discovery.
It is highly possible that the vaccines may be a moot point UNLESS the vaccines can be Tweaked and deployed faster that the emerging evolution of this virus.
This is scary beyond any war and yet could be a cause of war on top of it all.
There are prediction rumors floating around that this could wipe out a 1/3 or more of the population on the planet. Weather that is based on worst case scientific modeling OR someone's interpretation biblical prophecy in Revelation, I have no idea.
What I know is that it is ugly and it going to get a HELL of a lot worse before it gets better, IF it gets better!
Quote from: azmtnman on December 24, 2020, 10:53:48 AM-70C is -95F!!! I've been wondering about the units used to store it.
I suspect that they are using dry ice and that happens to be the temperature with a bit of lee-way. Just a convenient and sorta economical way to ship and store.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on December 24, 2020, 11:14:22 AM
Quote from: azmtnman on December 24, 2020, 10:53:48 AMAnything that cold is a tall order and not a typical or mass produced unit--at least not in the U.S.
I worked with a guy for a few years that his previous employer was a bio-tech pharma group. He was the facility manager and would get alarms whenever the bank of freezers would deviate from there extreme set points. He had a big bank of backup generators, tested regularly, ready and waiting for power disruptions. Huge sums of money invested on what was in the freezers.
One of my cohearts in vo-tech school taught artificial insemination-a very common practice that uses liquid nitrogen for extreme cold to store bull serum. That's been around for years- it would seem to me the real challenge beyond having the vaccine itself would be the shear immensity of the overall event logistically not just knowing how to keep stuff cold but rather on such a scale.
Yes they've showed the dry ice on TV news over and over. Even groceries stores out west sell dry ice for customers to get food home. We used to buy it to make mysterious punch bowls too.
I wondered about dry ice. We have to use it out here as @Kantuckid says to get frozen stuff home from the 4 hour drive from the nearest big metropolitan area.
I saw Ianab news article where they were "delivering the freezers."
Dry ice is solidified carbon dioxide and can be dangerous in enclosed spaces as it "melts" and would need good ventilation. I suppose a standard deep freeze with dry ice in it would suffice and slow the "melting" process.
I'm just curious as I sometimes overlook the simple solution.
I read that for now, they are saving half of the doses received for use as the second dose. When supply becomes more regular they will consider using all doses as first doses, knowing they will receive more by the time 3 or 4 weeks have passed since first dose.
Dry ice is being used to keep the stuff cold in transit, but it is not what keeps the refrigeration units cold. They have units that can achieve the cold needed. I don't know how they do so compared to regular freezers, but I'm sure it is similar, but on a bigger scale.
Picked up a scratchy throat on Monday and decided to play it safe. Got tested early Tuesday morning and did some work on the house feeling pretty good. By Tuesday night my scratchy throat was about gone but my nose was starting to plug and I began to feel more like I was sick.
Wednesday i was slower and achier. At lunch it seemed i was loosing my taste. Very lethargic wednesday afternoon, started to pick up a cough, and felt like a pretty good fever when I went to bed. Slept pretty bad.
Today (thurs) the fever seems to be gone but cough is a little worse. Taste and smell all but gone. Very achy and lethargic.
Figured it was a foregone conclusion but results came back today and I'm negative. Think I'll continue to isolate just in case the test was wrong.
When I got my test I'd had symptoms for nearly 24 hours (scratchy throat) so I'm assuming the test should have picked up covid if I have it, correct?
Alan
The freezers have been specially made in advance ( part of the warp speed operation) Someone was smart enough realise that they would be needed to distribute the vaccine. I think they are being set up in the main cities, and stocks can be dispatched from there to local clinics, packed with dry ice etc .
@alan gage (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=36602) thats the best course of action if you can do it. It's possible to test negative when symptoms are nil or slight. It's also possible that you have something else like flu or just a cold. It's getting ridiculous. We just had another guy test positive. Good thing for us is that he hasn't been at work in over a week. We are up to 7 current positives out of 30 guys. One of which is out on disability. The only good news is that the other one who was on disability comes back to work tomorrow.
Update on mom - she is still in the hospital in Pensacola and I suspect the staff are about ready to go on early retirement or strike if they can't get her out soon. She is off oxygen and the cortico steroids and they are trying to make arrangements with a home health nurse to visit as needed. She is still not mobile apparently just weak from the virus and such so that may be the limiting factor.
My younger brother calls daily with updates. He is home with the virus and sounds like making the call every day just about exhausts him. So far SIL does not seem to have it.
I read yesterday where a doctor in Boston had a serious anaphylactic shock and had to self administer his epi pen. He was allergic to shellfish so I don't know if that tied in but I forwarded the article to my daughter who is allergic to shellfish/iodine (the ingredient in the shellfish that gives her problems) just in case. She is scheduled to get her vaccine next week. It still sounded to me like the reaction to the vaccine was less serious than the virus as the doctor recovered quickly when he got his epi shot.
Thanks for the feedback. Did a little searching on the accuracy rate of testing and saw a lot of different things but I think all that can be distilled down to "we don't really know for sure yet," which I can understand.
So I think I'm just going to assume I was positive and follow quarantine guidelines, which, assuming I keep improving (feel very good today), will keep me away from work next week. By the time I get retested and wait for results I'll still miss work next week due to the holiday.
Stay safe everyone and happy holidays!
Alan
I know a young man that attended a company Christmas party, everyone ended up coming down with Covid. The boss had everyone get tested, they all came back positive, except this guy I know. He got sick, had all the same symptoms as everyone else (including loss of taste and smell) but tested negative- twice🤷🏽♂️
Would have been a good year to skip the company Christmas party and give everyone a little bonus with the money saved. ::)
My folks are in one of those retirement communities where you move in closer as your needs dictate. They are in the outer independent houses area. The whole "campus" has been on lockdown since things began and they have had I think one covid death and several small scale quarantines, staff still has to come and go as well as supplies but pretty tightly regulated and clamped down. Dad built some visitation booths with glass partitions out at the entrance, think of prison visitation but it has allowed families to visit face to face-ish. So it has worked pretty well compared to the many stand alone nursing facilities that have been breeding grounds. Their whole facility including staff will get their first shots Jan 10th. With all the failures in assisted living and nursing facilities some have been able to do it right.
My guess is liquid nitrogen is too cold. Its about-320 f. Seems like if they could use it they would as at least in the U.S. the infrastructure is there and the ln refrigerators are cheap.
The TV pics showed them pour what looked like dry ice cubes in the shipping boxes.
Any retirement community would severely crimp my style? Sawmills and wood shops allowed there?
I think my better plan is to go out on a motorcycle ride and "ride off into the sunset", never to return. Kind of like when the Lone ranger rode off each episode :D
a few of the retirement villages have wood shops, not heard of a sawmill though. that could change! :D :D :D
Quote from: kantuckid on December 26, 2020, 12:30:29 PMThe TV pics showed them pour what looked like dry ice cubes in the shipping boxes.
Sublimation temperature for dry ice is about -78C, that's in the range that the vaccine needs, so dry ice makes sense for that transport stage from the main distribution freezers to the local clinics. The local clinics then have several days to use the vaccine when it's stored in a regular freezer.
The allergic reaction seems rare, but not unknown. I think a couple of the stage 3 test subjects suffered from it. So maybe 1 in 10,000 ? But that's also not unusual with other vaccines. That's why they make you wait at the Dr or pharmacy for 15 mins after you get a flu shot, and they have an epi-pen in the cupboard if you do fall over. The allergic reaction is treatable as long as medical help is near at hand, so the actual risk there seems pretty low.
Now there seems to be another problem developing. The twin city news reported last night that of the 43,000 doses MN has received, only about 1300 had been administered. No one seems to know what is causing the delay but inventory of vaccine seems to be outrunning the administering of shots in the arm. They reported similar numbers for surrounding states.
Earlier this past week I called my clinic and they seemed to have no information on when or how both I and my wife (both over 75) would be called or notified that it was our turn. I checked the MN dept of health website and only learned we are in the 1c priority group but no other info. And yes our incompetent governor is complaining that MN was shorted in the initial shipment. ::)
We have 2 nursing homes in our coverage area, neither of them are nice, but one has always been known to be one of the worst. I've been running medical calls there for almost 29 years and I have talked bad about it more times than I can count. They have not had a single positive case there. They have been testing on a regular basis. Last week when the FD was in a bind trying to get our firefighters tested so they could come back to work, this nursing home offered to test all our guys that needed it. Then they tested several more guys who came down sick and needed to be tested. I sent them four people and all 4 tested positive. It was the first positive tests they had done during the whole pandemic. I'm sure conditions at this facility will always be less than perfect, but its hard to not commend them for keeping covid out and for stepping up to test our people when we really needed it. They would not let us pay for the tests.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 26, 2020, 02:52:15 PMWe have 2 nursing homes in our coverage area, neither of them are nice, but one has always been known to be one of the worst. I've been running medical calls there for almost 29 years and I have talked bad about it more times than I can count. They have not had a single positive case there.
Being "nice" doesn't keep Covid out. Taking the virus seriously and being strict on the isolation, testing and sanitising etc does. I bet they are on a "no-visitors" regime? That's certainly not nice for all involved, but it's pretty effective at keeping the virus out.
I'm not very fond of nursing homes!! Most are money hungry. They want to keep the residents at the facilities and not send them to the hospital unless they absolutely have to. Because they want that money to stay at the facility 💰. It's sad!!!!!. They can bleed a person or there family dry of every dime
Quote from: doc henderson on December 26, 2020, 12:57:02 PM
a few of the retirement villages have wood shops, not heard of a sawmill though. that could change! :D :D :D
Dad talked them into a shop. The head of maintenance, who I think has come to realize he answers to my old man :D, poor guy, decided they needed a "storage building" then they turned it over to the old guys to outfit. He does a lot of repurposing, the stuff they throw away in those places is amazing.
Quote from: Ianab on December 24, 2020, 03:04:26 PM
I think they are being set up in the main cities, and stocks can be dispatched from there to local clinics, packed with dry ice etc .
Some are in the boon docks. Miramachi City here in NB, has everyone wondering. And nurses are not allowed time off to drive up there to get it. ::) You'd have to travel there for 1-1/2 to 4 hrs this time of the year. It would be over 3 hrs for me because I have to travel south for about 2 hrs, cross the river and follow the Miramachi river another 1-1/2 hrs. Why they never set it up in Fredericton is a real mystery.
Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine (https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/covid19-industry/drugs-vaccines-treatments/vaccines/moderna.html) was just approved here the other day as well. For 18 years of age or older. Also need 2 doses, 1 month apart.
My state issues much daily general info as to vaccine plans, who got it, etc., but not one bit filters down to those of us (myself and wife) who they say are due next for the vaccine after the first level given to first level care givers.
Once you get past the 60 bed nursing home here (it has ~ 80% of beds occupied and locally owned by a local man who made his bucks as a building supply owner and FHA home builder) which was vaccinated on 12/21/20 there's zero information. In a county with no radio stations, no real newspaper and the main source of information coming from a Facebook Community group done by the county library manager (who's not been open for months on end themselves and only very recently went back to lending books!) what I see on that listing is church services recorded on videos of several local churches each Sunday & Wednesday and a "covid head count" the County Judge Executive's secretary passes along from the area health dept..
In my wife's home county, 75 miles east, where her 96 year old (ALZ) Mom is cared for 24/7 at home, they were contacted that she'd get the shot next week in home.
If there is a plan they owe me information? ??? No, I'm not in any sort of frenzy but lets hear what happens next.
In other countries they line you up, and you get it, like it or not, and if they miss you,... oh well. Since the vaccine is a benefit of the US government, they follow a chain of command and resources. so the biggest recipient in our county was the "free clinic" that is a rural health care clinic. they get grants and mandates from the fed. government. The county health departments in Ks are on near daily phone meetings with the state health department, and they are getting info from the Fed. government. contact your health department, or if you have a VA or or Fed. subsidized clinic. they can tell who to call locally and or put you on a list. there are those who do not go to any doctor, and they may fall through the cracks. all the clinics are trying to search their rolls via computer systems to get at people who qualify by age and or medical condition. It may sound easy, but most are struggling to have their IT folks figure out how to do this. nothing about a paperless medical record has made anything easier. your doctors office may have a plan. you can wait and see if they call you, but you can call and ask. I was asked on a Monday who all of my docs wanted the vaccine. I got a text. next day we got it. hopefully your local will advertise a plan soon.
Update on mom is they released her yesterday at 2:00 pm and sent her home. My previously/so far negative SIL went and got her and was to spend the night with her in her home with her. Now we just have to figure out long term health care for her as she lives alone and evidently passed out and unable to get help for over 16 hours as she had and rejected/returned the fall warning necklaces and buttons in lieu of a cell phone she won't carry and can't/won't use. I'm wondering if we can modify a police ankle bracelet for her. Funny but not funny I know. Hopefully the home health nurse can help offer some suggestions when she comes by later today.
My younger brother sounded stronger when I talked with him last night but if anything ever happens to his wife I figure both he and mom are institution bound.
Getting closer to home :-\ Our friends with the cabin I use when working on mine had a friend pass and another family of 3 they know all have it. They are older than me and we haven't been around them except for once early summer. They stay away from everyone as they have their mother (90+) living with them.
My daughter works at a feed store and her manager tested positive yesterday and will be out for a bit. They all wear masks all day at work but they had a get together the weekend before Christmas. Time to wait and see...
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on December 27, 2020, 10:36:25 AM
Update on mom is they released her yesterday at 2:00 pm and sent her home. My previously/so far negative SIL went and got her and was to spend the night with her in her home with her. Now we just have to figure out long term health care for her as she lives alone and evidently passed out and unable to get help for over 16 hours as she had and rejected/returned the fall warning necklaces and buttons in lieu of a cell phone she won't carry and can't/won't use. I'm wondering if we can modify a police ankle bracelet for her. Funny but not funny I know. Hopefully the home health nurse can help offer some suggestions when she comes by later today.
My younger brother sounded stronger when I talked with him last night but if anything ever happens to his wife I figure both he and mom are institution bound.
As part of the 24/7 alz care my MIL gets at home, they watch her on a monitor same as commonly seen with babies in a crib.
Some of our guys who were sick a few weeks ago are starting to come back to work. Still have several more out sick. Had another one go home sick today with Covid symptoms. He will get tested tomorrow.
I read an article which suggested that even though 2 doses are required for full protection, folks are as much as 90% protected within weeks of getting the first dose. There has been a suggestion that they skip the second dose for now, which would free up more doses and therefore vaccinate twice as many people with vaccine that is currently available. Doesn't sound like its gonna happen, but its good to know that you get very good protection in a short amount of time. I'm happy that my wife is likely already well protected. I always fear that I'm bringing it home from work, especially now that we have so many sick at the department.
Well, I find myself at work again for mandatory OT. One of the guys who was due to come back to work developed a fever again last night. They were already short a guy because he went home sick, so I just came in to work at midnight last night and will work until tomorrow morn.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 27, 2020, 10:34:48 AM
In other countries they line you up, and you get it, like it or not, and if they miss you,... oh well. Since the vaccine is a benefit of the US government, they follow a chain of command and resources. so the biggest recipient in our county was the "free clinic" that is a rural health care clinic. they get grants and mandates from the fed. government. The county health departments in Ks are on near daily phone meetings with the state health department, and they are getting info from the Fed. government. contact your health department, or if you have a VA or or Fed. subsidized clinic. they can tell who to call locally and or put you on a list. there are those who do not go to any doctor, and they may fall through the cracks. all the clinics are trying to search their rolls via computer systems to get at people who qualify by age and or medical condition. It may sound easy, but most are struggling to have their IT folks figure out how to do this. nothing about a paperless medical record has made anything easier. your doctors office may have a plan. you can wait and see if they call you, but you can call and ask. I was asked on a Monday who all of my docs wanted the vaccine. I got a text. next day we got it. hopefully your local will advertise a plan soon.
I am very much aware of government stuff-10+ yrs of military and being a state employee for many years I've been indoctrinated to the drones way of doing stuff. ;D
I called today, Monday a.m. to the regional/county health dept nearest me-they know nothing and said to call back in a week as front line was being vaccinated first. I then called the local clinic operated by a small regional hospital and where we go for most regular medical needs-operator said they know nothing and call back in a week. I'm OK with that but would be better if I could buy groceries and feel safer.
Although I ve read most of this thread I m sure I ve missed parts so maybe this has been covered already.
Masks - though many foks are wearing them I m seeing
> masks only over someone's mouth
> masks that don't make a good seal - there's a colored video out there showing a person's breath coming and going out the top bottom and sides of the mask
> and some of my favorites - at a gathering ( think like church ) lowering one's mask to sneeze or cough . . . prompting me to move though now sitting/standing at the very rear so the contagion is where I can see it coming ?
Hand washing - likely true - leastways from what I can tell
> many restrooms have paper towels - no problem - even use them to open close doors on the way out. ( does it help to leave some sanitizer on your hands ? )
> Forced air dryers - wow . Remember reading some stuff on how a terrorist would distribute biologicals/toxins - set it up and then aerosolize it for maximum coverage preferably upwind from height ) - so forced air dryers seem like a a great way to aerosolize cv19 and force it around the room . Especially since many seem to only wash their hands for 5 to 10 seconds ? imho - to be avoided.
On "Hill St Blues " a desk sergeant used to say " Let's be careful out there "
And Happy New Year - 2021
Yep, I'll dry my hands on my pants before I use air dryers. Trouble is that everyone before me used the hand dryer and spread their germs about the bathroom.
In my state of KY, todays newspaper says I'll be in line to get a vaccination come ~1st week of February along with First Responders, K-12 personnel, and other seniors over 70.
KY has received 202,000 doses so far as of end of December, with 26,000 given to date to medical and long term care folks who got them along with the politicos thought of as important enough.
Article says CVS & Walgreens as holders of federal contracts get to decide where the vaccine goes in KY.
The 176,000 doses difference between overall total and few thats been given are not mentioned in the article. Long term care vaccinated so far is about 2,500 staff, 3,000 residents statewide last week.
Lets hope that those most at risk got them, or "wanted them".
In my way of thinking, First Responders would have been on that list along with front line medical workers.
Saw where a hospital here in KY- "they" voted that all doctors must be vaccinated but optional decision for other staff.
Don't you just love the hypocrisy of "they"?
Quote from: Tacotodd on December 29, 2020, 08:34:25 AM
Don't you just love the hypocrisy of "they"?
The brief statement didn't say if that hospital had an employee council group who voted or if administration decided, or what. I guess "didn't say" are the key words beyond the fact that those beyond docs got to choose, not be forced to get vaccinated.
If I ran a hospital (that's a good one? :D) everybody who walked in that place for money, medical related students or to volunteer would be forced to get the vaccination.
Louisville had an instance of a drug store group thawing out more vaccine than there was a plan for and then gave that to customers, whomever? to avoid spoilage-our guv apologized and said there would be a plan next time, shouldn't have happened, etc..
Article in todays NYT's the writer says her husband is high enough up in his company, which is considered critical but is not a medical delivery company, that he can see to it that he and her both get the vaccine sooner, not later. Her lengthly article wore me out and I began skimming after several hundred words about adopted kids and other stuff in her life. But, that article made it clear there are some interesting ideas in place as to who should get the vaccine.
I am not an automatic cynic but am a very fact based thinker who knows how far "self" has permeated our society.
So much for my hope of getting vaccinated this week. Counties around mine have been vaccinating first responders, but not mine. That's probably because my county is doing it right and following the guideline set by the state dept of health. I'm proud of my friend who heads the health dept for doing the right thing, but its just frustrating. The state of MO has only vaccinated 1/3 of those who are in the first group in two weeks. That doesn't seem very warp speedy to me.
The "last mile" isn't going too smoothly yet. Hopefully they will get the kinks worked out soon.
The UK's virulent variant of covid showed up in CO this week. The patient had not travelled which means there are more cases wandering around.
We spiked here considerably since Thanksgiving and another spike is going to pile on top of that one. The vaccine is on the way but this thing is as dangerous as it has been, be safe.
I was reading some history last night. The plague probably originated in Egypt and when they sent Rome tribute in grain it came along for the ride, and then spread throughout their empire, killing perhaps as much as half the world's population during the reign of Justinian in the sixth century. When it struck Europe in the 1300's another 50 million people perished. It returned frequently until the late 1600's. The last large outbreak was just wrapping up in 1666, King Charles II had come back to London when the great fire razed the city. When we brought Smallpox here it wiped out as much as 90% of the native population. This is bad but it has been so much worse, some days it is hard to see it but we are blessed to live where and when we do.
Yeah, no doubt things have been worse in the history of the world.
I would think the states need to take the bulk of the errors on their own. The feds can only do so much.
This site gives the vaccine roll out plan for New Brunswickers.
Vaccine (https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/corporate/promo/covid-19/vaccine.html#prog)
If it was my decision, I would be doing this very differently. After medical and all first responders, the people working considered essential would be next. Grocery workers, truck drivers, convenience store clerks, mailmen, utility workers, etc.
Keep in mind that I live in a State that never came out of lockdown. The greater good would be served if I continue isolating and that young gal that brings my groceries to my car was given some protection.
Our local news today said a 28 year old firefighter was lost to this virus.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on December 30, 2020, 07:38:38 PM
I would think the states need to take the bulk of the errors on their own. The feds can only do so much.
Our state of KY has vaccinated the politicians first per our guv's instructions.
In todays newspaper the Ag Commissioner refused the shot, for now, stating he felt elected officials were not the priority people. Kudos to him!!!
IN my mind anyone who's primary job is too keep society safe-LEO's, Firefighters, them right after anyone who sees patients for health or emergency (not cosmetic reasons like a botox doc) would be right after the institutional residents and staff. How a state rep or their staff fits into the vaccine picture isn't political talk, it's bad thinking and certainly not about welfare of others. Utility line workers should be right up there as they keep people alive too. Urban transportation folks like bus drivers, so on, are extremely important! Even gasoline clerks & truck drivers are waaaaay above politicians and their staffs and their families?
I'm also good with all grocery clerks & other food store workers (not Macy's, etc.) being vaccinated in front of myself as a senior.
I agree. the folks that are required to come face to face with people at high risk (sick people) as part of their job, need to be healthy. At least the majority of them or the system collapses. Sad that someone who is helping others, lost their lives just doin their job.
Today's NYT's lead headline:
14 million doses shipped, 2.6 million injected. There's a map of the USA showing state by state rates of vaccination. Ranges from less than .5% up to 1.5% with only 4 states in the latter range.
It should go faster when more people are in the "vaccinate group". many people are holding back, as they are not sure that they need to be first. when the supply is adequate, we can start vaccinating all who are willing. that is easier than finding the small percentage that now qualify. no one wants to be that person that gets it, and is later criticized. It is also hard to do mass immunization, when we are supposed to socially distance and some are in lockdown. be safe! :)
usflag
Kantuck, your last 2 post say LOTS of good information and I wonder about that last disparity between shipped and given.
there is also a delay in reporting just like with the cases. We had ours (vaccine) on the 16th, within days of the release. quite a feat. things in medicine do not move fast usually. If we stopped vaccinating today, the reported number would still climb as they catch up. I think we are doing ok. Of course I am part of the system, so maybe I drank the "koolaid".
:D :D :D smiley_beertoast
Tonites a "koolaid" night? at least for many people, not me so much as my carvedil ;Dl says nope to brewskis or wine but I have a personal limit of one which has proven to not kill me over many years.
I'll go get the shot as soon as it's offered to my groupies, no hesitancy whatsoever! People like my wife, her sister and a couple of hired caretakers of her mom should get the vaccination in with the nursing home residents and staff. My MIL gets it next week as a 96 yr old in home care person. Her geriatric doc visits are mostly virtual.
FWIW- my county has a FB group which I am the only person to ask who's getting the vaccination in this county-other than the one nursing home. That nursing home has all 6 cases in this county as of today.
Well, as if the governor of Missouri heard you guys, he is supposed to announce today that firefighters and other first responders are being bumped up to the first phase of vaccination. It seems he got a LOT of public outcry saying what you all are saying. We still have no indication who will be providing the shot, but its a step in the right direction. One thing I will add about us that are the first people call when they are sick is that we have to respond to the homes of folks who have been sick for quite a while and go in and breathe the air they have been breathing. Of course we wear masks and gloves and face shields, but those things arent't going to be as effective as they are in clean doctor/hospital rooms.
My word to folks who have claimed that covid is no worse from the flu is that in my 29 years as a firefighter I've never heard of a ff dying from the flu. I've heard of at least 20 nationwide that have died from covid.
FWIW, (and I'm not preaching to the choir when I say this) firefighters were already in one of the most dangerous jobs of all occupations. More so than LEO's and I think they used to be right behind dockworkers?
In todays world, even pre-covid it's bound to be far worse than when I first read that factoid.
In my youth my best friends Dad was a Topeka, KS fire fighter, then a city fire inspector, my best friend is a retired Topeka firefighter/officer himself.
In my younger days even the large departments in urban areas didn't do all the things they do now such as ambulances, first responder- EMT's, etc. they just fought fires-as if that wasn't enough danger.
Law enforcement in the current climate is having a lot more line of duty deaths right now. Firefighters are probably above average due to covid. I haven't looked at the stats for 2020. The common misconception is that we only fight fire. Today, though, probably 85% of the nations firefighters do both EMS and fire.
My nearest neighbor is a KY state cop. He told me that this years cadet class had over half quit after but a few weeks. They typically lose a couple early on but nothing like that. It was this summers nationwide news that ran them off in droves. Sad but true...
FWIW, I went through the two week Fire Academy course in the 1960's (same training as then volunteer FD's) as a part of my Goodyear Apprenticeship-the skilled trades were the fire dept at the Topeka Plant. Our moto was to let it burn as none of us felt like dying over a tire plant.
Yesterday Georgia expanded the definition of who is eligible phase 1a. One reason cited was slow uptake among rural healthcare workers. New guidelines LE, Fire, EMS, Adults 65 and over. Still trying to figure where I fit in, 64, type 2 Diabetes controlled, but it's a step in the right direction.
Dodged a bullet last week. I skipped an indoor family gathering of 10 people, 3 are positive with symptoms. Figure I'll keep doing what I've been doing.
If it's true you get chips with the Vaccine I'd like a side of Guacamole.
My son, his wife and kids ages 3.5 years and 5 months took a trip via plane. All but the 5 month tested before the trip to ensure no issues prior, PCR test. Then when they returned they tested again with PCR test. Son's wife and 3.5 year old daughter were positive and he was negative. After a day Son wanted to retest, his work will only pay him to stay home if he is positive and he was sure he'd be positive with both wife and daughter positive. He went back to test again and took his daughter. He remained negative and this time so was his daughter. His wife then went to retest and she was negative. They were told they should get two negatives to ensure the first was a false positive. Both wife and daughter retested and were negative. We are quite happy of this out come, but it is sad the tests aren't more accurate as it does cause a lot of behavior that could be avoided as people try to isolate and ensure they do the right things.
HAPPY NEW YEAR! Hope this is a better year for all!
Saw something today that said hope 2021 does not tell 2020 to 'hold my beer and watch this'! :o
Quote from: kantuckid on December 31, 2020, 11:28:13 AM
FWIW, (and I'm not preaching to the choir when I say this) firefighters were already in one of the most dangerous jobs of all occupations. More so than LEO's and I think they used to be right behind dockworkers?
In todays world, even pre-covid it's bound to be far worse than when I first read that factoid.
In my youth my best friends Dad was a Topeka, KS fire fighter, then a city fire inspector, my best friend is a retired Topeka firefighter/officer himself.
In my younger days even the large departments in urban areas didn't do all the things they do now such as ambulances, first responder- EMT's, etc. they just fought fires-as if that wasn't enough danger.
The 10 most dangerous jobs in America, according to BLS data (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/27/the-10-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-according-to-bls-data.html)
You made me look. Loggers, fisherman, pilots and flight engineers, roofers, refuse workers, truck drivers, farmers, iron and steel workers, construction mining, lawncare were the top 10. Firefighters at 24th. Police in at 18th. Wow logging rate of accidents is 4-5X higher than firefighters or policeman. Sadly 2 more died today in Ohio.
In my news paper today a Clay Co., KY man and his son, both of the same names-SR & JR were killed simultaneously!
Son was on a dozer and hit by top of tree while log rolled into Dad at side of dozer.
Just saw a picture of FL seniors standing in line for a vaccination, elbow to elbow they were! Is "the line" not a how to get covid, super spreader event?
Picture got me thinking about the glitzy golf resorts (Del Webb, etc.) we drive past most winters in FL where you can begin a life of leisure at age 55 and golf and craft your way into the great beyond-if you have the money and desire. It was an obviously large senior retirement enclave, not a nursing home full of wheel chairs and misery.
Are those seniors that different than those of us who stay on our place (by choice!) and whack weeds, raise gardens and such to get their shots now, not a month or more later?
"Dangerous" is a different word than "dead" or "maimed". Thus, when you make a list such as above BLS list there are serious nuances. Of the Vocational Rehab, injured on the job clients I often saw, mostly all were industry related, basically never were they government related jobs that hurt them. It gets more complicated than that actually. The list of ten most dangerous for e.g. list pilots- I can assure you the people flying an airliner are just a bit less in danger than say a military pilot or our Son, a test pilot. By that what I mean is that you must break down any occupation to get at the dangerous places.
Final update on Mom and younger brother is Mom is home alone and pretty much back to her normal routine except she does seem to be using her rolling walker now. I called yesterday and my brother was waiting in the car (at 450+ lbs he does not get out and walk an extra step if he can help it) for SIL to help Mom down the ramp and they were all going to a Chinese restaurant for New Year dinner. I questioned whether they were all still contagious but he assured me was past the quarantine period and safe to be around others. ??? Anyway they seem to have dodged the bullet for the most part.
I did hear today that WV has done one of the best jobs of administering the vaccine among the states.
The CDC says you have to be 10 days past onset of symptoms, fever free for 24 hours without the use of Tylenol and respiratory symptoms have to be improving before you can break quarantine. I know this because I had to send one of my guys home yesterday who tried to come back to work a day early. He was only at 9 days and had to go back home.
Maybe Virginia can teach something to MO.
WV won't teach Missouri anything. They have to "show" them..... :D sorry couldn't pass that one up...
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on January 02, 2021, 08:33:52 PM
Final update on Mom and younger brother is Mom is home alone and pretty much back to her normal routine except she does seem to be using her rolling walker now. I called yesterday and my brother was waiting in the car (at 450+ lbs he does not get out and walk an extra step if he can help it) for SIL to help Mom down the ramp and they were all going to a Chinese restaurant for New Year dinner. I questioned whether they were all still contagious but he assured me was past the quarantine period and safe to be around others. ??? Anyway they seem to have dodged the bullet for the most part.
Not to point fingers but those Chinese buffets do indeed attract 450# people. Hard to miss observation in fact.
I actually like some of that stir fried stuff but we almost never go in one as my wife makes VG chicken fried rice at home and we throw in a sinful but VG, Pagoda brand pork eggroll from Wally World. Our home cooked stuff lacks the MSG that permeates those buffets.
Great to hear yer Mom's back in gear to be back in her game. :D
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on January 02, 2021, 10:11:49 PM
The CDC says you have to be 10 days past onset of symptoms, fever free for 24 hours without the use of Tylenol and respiratory symptoms have to be improving before you can break quarantine. I know this because I had to send one of my guys home yesterday who tried to come back to work a day early. He was only at 9 days and had to go back home.
Maybe Virginia can teach something to MO.
Our three GK's and son and DIL left our house for what was to be 4 days with her parents 30 miles away. She then learned that her brother (he often does stupid stuff and his wife's worse at it) had not been in quarantine and around both her parents lately, so it became an angry mess for the kids who'd looked forward to their other set of GP's. They went back to TN ticked off and back in quarantine themselves.
We made a wally run in a heavy rain on early a.m. of new years day thinking no crowds and that worked OK except for a few dumb asses no mask. I don't blame the people at the carts for not enforcing the mask rule as who'd want that to deal with for what they get paid? Best to just make it through the day.
I'm sure racial issues are verbotten here but there's an interesting article in the NYT's written by a African-American lady doc who says "her people" should get vaccinated first before all others, except 1st line medical like her. The numbers are there for several minority groups given the health parameters and certain "aspects" of opinions about health matters. But, in part, the same thing could be said about nursing home residents as more than a few of them are there based on how they chose to live, eat, smoke, drink, etc.. High % of "ism's in a nursing home but far from the whole story too. Thought provoking who gets vaccinated using statistical data which is not a new aspect of health matters for the overall population.
I could argue that same minority doc could only see "her people" to be the most effective?
Quote from: Nebraska on January 02, 2021, 10:33:07 PM
WV won't teach Missouri anything. They have to "show" them..... :D sorry couldn't pass that one up...
Maybe we are learning where the term "misery"(MO, get it? it's an old joke ::)) came from?
Quote from: Nebraska on January 02, 2021, 10:33:07 PM
WV won't teach Missouri anything. They have to "show" them..... :D sorry couldn't pass that one up...
Quote from: kantuckid on January 03, 2021, 06:58:33 AM
Quote from: Nebraska on January 02, 2021, 10:33:07 PM
WV won't teach Missouri anything. They have to "show" them..... :D sorry couldn't pass that one up...
Maybe we are learning where the term "misery"(MO, get it? it's an old joke ::)) came from?
Yeah, you gotta show us folks from misery for us to lern sumtin.
Better than Oklahoma......Oklahoma...better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
I would think Missouri jokes funny, except my family used to raise mules, and we heard all the jokes. ;D 8)
FWIW, ALL of my people come from MO. Not lately, a long time ago.
This thread is supposed to be just facts, so I have to think then that all the MO jokes are indeed factual? :D
I suspect my northern AR Ozarks kinfolk told them misery jokes :D?
Maybe get back to the misery of covid huh? ::)
That reminds of the old saying "We ran off the sorriest no-count +&%3#@) in our community to MO and improved both places". :D
Okay, you can substitute MO with any state, city or region you want. ;)
"so many people, so few teeth!" also can refer to several if not all states by someone. :)
Howard, this applies to Universities in the South, too :D.
Quote from: doc henderson on January 03, 2021, 11:02:39 PM
"so many people, so few teeth!" also can refer to several if not all states by someone. :)
Yea, and I'm in that "not enough teeth" crowd right now! My generation is in fact the pre-fluoride people.
Wife made veg beef soup other day and a bowl took me God knows how long to munch up the beef pieces. I'm like bucky beaver what with molars gone bye bye.
FWIW, if you know the history of American westward movement, the folks who were looking west often left where ever and went to MO next.
Be careful where you point fingers? :D
Missouri was the gateway to the west, had some of the best rifle makers of the time. Hawkins. Thompson/Center Arms makes some plain jane replicas, one of which I have. Any who, when the west started producing the products flowed back thru St. Louis, and dispersed through the river systems. Thus ends the history lesson
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on January 03, 2021, 09:03:00 PM
That reminds of the old saying "We ran off the sorriest no-count +&%3#@) in our community to MO and improved both places". :D
Some of those sorriest no-count rascals died at the Alamo, those frontier states had to have tough dudes to grow.
Well, I now have a date to be vaccinated. January 26th. This has been offered to us by the same nursing home that has been offering us the covid tests. That means it will be the Moderna vaccine and administered by CVS or Walgreens. I sure hoped for sooner and maybe the miserable state of Missouri will make something happen sooner, but I'm happy to have a date this month.
I think MO is way ahead of us in VA. MIL(96) is in assisted living and no word yet as to when they will get the vaccine. My PCP is the local covid guru, and has not said anything other than when he gets his vax he wants his pic in the local weekly getting the shot to change the anti's minds.
In the news today;
The woman who was Miss Virginia in 1958 was grand marshall in the Martinsville Christmas parade, then returned home near Atlanta and caught covid apparently from a neighbor. On Christmas Eve the family recieved a call from the hospital that she had passed. Then a short while later they called back to say that as they were removing her from the ventilator they noticed she had a faint pulse. They restarted their efforts and 3 days later she woke herself from an induced coma a day early, was sitting up in bed demanding to know where she was and where is her husband. Don't mess with her! :D
Doc can attest to this. Things happen that seem like miracles.
yep!
Here in KY the rest of them (cabinet level officials had them first of anyone some days ago) meaning state senate and state reps., politicians and their staffs, etc. are all safe and fighting for me! They got their shots yesterday so they can now ::)"safely"! ::) raise the gas tax, make sure bourbon and horses are treated fairly. Road taxes are a huge worry for them and gotta get it done soon.
Ky has administered 60,000 of the 175,000 doses they have received. Last night TV news he blamed the feds but same breath he said the states got to speed up delivery of the injections.
My theory, based on personal experience of laying in a hospital bed over the holidays one year, while waiting on a heart procedure, is that the "shot people" were all celebrating Christmas...
Just a quick reminder that this thread isn't an opinion thread. We really don't like to remove or redirect members posts, so help a gal out. :)
Has anyone else seen their dentist during this pandemic? Yesterday I had an appointment for a molar extraction, and admittedly I was very surprised at all they had changed. The instructions when the appointment was made, was that I had to remain in my car and call them to announce my arrival and that someone would come out to greet me and bring me inside. A very nice young man came out took my temperature before I got out of my car and asked me all the Covid questions. The door to the dentist office is kept locked to prevent patients from coming in contact with each other mask or not. Inside the exam room was a very large piece of machinery that cleaned the air. It took up fully a quarter of the room. Does anyone know what this machine is and how it works?
I also had to sign a waiver releasing the dentist office if I got the virus.
probably a HEPA filter, trying to filter even viruses out of the air. lots of new equipment and growth of companies that facilitate keeping things open. we just got a machine in the entrance to scan out badge, ask the questions, and take our temp. it records this all and shows the insurance industry that we are complying with recommendations. they could otherwise reduce Medicare reimbursement.
Re dentist
Got a message from my dentist recently saying they hadn't heard from me in awhile.
Nor had they scheduled a cleaning since the virus break out.
So I am curious if it is safe to go in or not, or if its worth the risk.
Plan on giving them a call to see what safety measures they have put in place.
I have been in 5 dental offices in past couple of months. Lucky me.
They all still wear a mask as they always have before covid. The dental visit to a part of a regional hospital required a covid test within 48 hours of my visit, so a double trip of 60 miles each.
At the U of KY Dental College they were closed like most medical was early in the pandemic. They wear a mask and a face shield that hangs from their necks upside down from a shop style masks.
I have 2 dental visits next week, Oral/maxillofacial Surgery(several months waiting as they are covid behind-ness) and then my student dentist few days later.
The oral surgery is staffed with residency docs. They co=ordinate with the dental college down several floors. The dental college has a hospital desk you walk up to and answer the covid questions on travel, symptoms, etc. then at the sign in your monitored for spacing and temp taken and they collect your question permit.
The student lab was once mostly an open series of two rows of dental suites but pre-covid they modernized and each is separated by cabinets visually.
I am of the opinion that I may be the violator of giving opinions here and above ;D but on this one I'm probably safe to say you should do what's best for your health, covid or not. My school dentist they went to the every 6 months a cleaning regimen ~ 2 years back, they seem to have backed off that one, plus I told my student to place in my record that I will only accept one cleaning per year. Seems counter-intuitive to them telling me to use a soft toothbrush, flouride Rx toothpaste each day and also avoid certain flosses then turn around and clean them twice a year. IMO it's more about money.
I don't go in any retail unless it is sort of a must do but I doubt Walmart is as safe as a dental office?
Avoid what flosses? Just curious.
Me too.
They seem to dislike the plastic flossers. I use em anyway... :D They do recommend the water-pic as long as they are adjustable so as to do no harm.
One useful aspect of my dental college visits since 2009 has been the reality that the college has all dental disciplines under one roof. I've had any number of times when i got a consult from any dental specialty you can name while there. At my age it's common to have a multiple of dental things going on. Maybe I have more than others but also common stuff.
I visit the 5th floor-Oral Maxillofacial, every year for a professional look/see at an area of my gums that is pre-cancerous. They look, take a new picture and often the resident calls in a staff doctor to ask questions. From 1965 to 1989 I dipped snuff-Copenhagen and Key from daylight until my head hit the pillow. I quit cold turkey in March 1989 as I was simply tired of being addicted to nicotine. The reality is that it abrades your gums which is compounded by my age and normal gum recession. That gum recession also make implants a much different prospect, I'll call it, than for a younger person. I would not be surprised to learn that many on this forum use dip or chewing tobacco. The chew versions are actually even worse as laden with sugar.
The 5th floor also does gum preparation for implants and likely will do my implants rather than my dental student downstairs. I have had more routine implants done by the doctoral dental students in the past though and they always do the crowns and most other things any street dentist does. They don't do molar extractions or gum grafts or gum enhancements to prep for implants.
The cost is far below any street dentist, even cheaper than any Mexican dentist as well.
Wonder why? I use 3-4 of them a day. Use the twin line ones. Sure is a lot easier than string.
Heck I floss with them while riding the bike, have them stashed everywhere.
Just got a card in the mail today from the area VA Clinic!
Said they will soon be receiving COVID-19 vaccine and in accordance with CDC guidelines they will vaccinate front line health care people and at-risk veterans, then they will administer to all interested Veterans!
They expect to begin the process in early January!
They will be contacting veterans to determine their interest in receiving the vaccine and schedule an appointment.
So, it doesn't look like it'll be much longer!
Quote from: Raider Bill on January 05, 2021, 03:21:23 PM
Wonder why? I use 3-4 of them a day. Use the twin line ones. Sure is a lot easier than string.
Heck I floss with them while riding the bike, have them stashed everywhere.
I think it's -maybe- the fact that the toothpick aspect is hard on the gums when poked between teeth. Opinions are aplenty huh?
We have them stashed at our nightly news positions in the LR.
They have dosed ~ 10k of the 50k long term care residents and staff in KY. No mention of Vets in the article but much discussion on prison populations. Supposedly, all health care will be vaccinated here by end of Jan., 2021 and then they do: K-12 teachers, First Responders and my group the over 70's in February.
I heard today that they did some autopsies on the brain of deceased covid patients. They found leaky blood vessels that apparently explain some of the ongoing problems some folks have had with brain fog, heart flutters, etc. This might be behind the lack of taste and smell and might have implications on Alzheimers in the future.
They've used 20% of the vaccine we've gotten in my state thus far. I hope they can get that straightened out soon.
Got the call today we will get our shots Monday next. We signed up about 3-4 weeks ago, had a friend call us and say they were taking signatures at the local pharmacie, so we signed up and called all our friends. the friend that notified me is an hour ahead of me in the shot line, the first friend I notified is one hour behind us. The place said they have finally gotten through the first responders and are finally getting larger amounts of the Madera.
Thank you warp speed.
Given that we are on the FF, "madera"-That's a cute misnomer for "Moderna" :D
Got a notice via e mail that Maine VA is having a virtual town hall style meeting Thursday to discuss the
vaccination process for staff and veterans.
Good news no doubt but i expect it will be at least a month or two before my place in line comes up.
Quote from: kantuckid on January 06, 2021, 06:10:30 AM
Given that we are on the FF, "madera"-That's a cute misnomer for "Moderna" :D
As W. C. Fields would say, "A little
Madeira, my dear?"
Wife and I went monday for the 6 month cleaning.
Small office one dentist one hygienist.
Temp checked and they were masked up.
Hope the 14 days goes OK.
Plastic flossers and tooth picks next to our chairs and in both of my vehicles.
Just started a water pic after not using it for several years.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on January 06, 2021, 08:37:07 AM
Quote from: kantuckid on January 06, 2021, 06:10:30 AM
Given that we are on the FF, "madera"-That's a cute misnomer for "Moderna" :D
As W. C. Fields would say, "A little Madeira, my dear?"
In Tejas it's la madeira? :D
I bought a water pic based on a cute dental professors lecture as to how great hers was, but actually too lazy to use it. My wife does as she's far more into various ways to maintain her body parts, such as dermabrasion. It works for her cause she's still cute but me, there no hope?
My form of dermabrasion is more like doing "abrasions" :D
Monday, wallering in mud while pretending I was sawmilling, I slid about 4-5' then busted my ass hard. I must still be hard to break cause I shook it off.
Our guv is complaining that the feds only give them a weeks notice on vaccine deliveries so hard to set up shots. Why is it hard to set up a shot for someone in a facility? or a hospital which does have work schedules me thinks? Not like they clock out at nursing homes...
Numbers jumped here a little since New Years, not huge numbers, but it has the Premier Blaine "Higgie Baby" Higgs ;D pounding the pulpit and preaching of late. Put us into orange phase, stay within your own home, no visits. Essentials only: work, food, appointments, pharmacy and so forth.
Some details on the orange phase for us.
N.B. COVID-19 roundup: One-day record of 31 confirmed cases | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/covid-19-new-brunswick-orange-shannex-saint-john-jan-6-1.5862989)
Quote from: kantuckid on January 05, 2021, 11:25:00 AM
My school dentist they went to the every 6 months a cleaning regimen ~ 2 years back, they seem to have backed off that one, plus I told my student to place in my record that I will only accept one cleaning per year.
I was asked last January when I wanted to make the next visit for, after I seen a charge for 20 mins work with water, air and paste was $160. Oh, 20 years, I responded. Since it was about 20 years before this one. ;D A lot more politely put than what I was thinking after forking over a day's wage. :D Back then was $60, I didn't mind that, but $160 is over the top. ;D Nope, dental insurance is probably $900 a year up here unless your drawing a government cheque. They know where the sun don't shine. ;D
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 06, 2021, 02:52:23 PMPut us into orange phase, stay within your own home, no visits. Essentials only: work, food, appointments, pharmacy and so forth.
Interesting to compare the different levels of response.
Your RED level would roughly correspond to Level 3 here. Level 4 is even stricter than that, but was only used during the initial outbreak. A Level 3 response in the Auckland province was enough to shut down the later outbreak. During that the rest of the country was Level 2, similar to your Yellow, and we actually got in a 2 week road trip around the South Island doing all the regular tourist stuff.
But the response level here is based on there being community transmission occurring. not hospital capacity. The strategy has been to eliminate the virus, not simply slow it's spread.
got my second Pfizer immunization today. feel fine.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 06, 2021, 03:06:25 PM
Quote from: kantuckid on January 05, 2021, 11:25:00 AM
My school dentist they went to the every 6 months a cleaning regimen ~ 2 years back, they seem to have backed off that one, plus I told my student to place in my record that I will only accept one cleaning per year.
I was asked last January when I wanted to make the next visit for, after I seen a charge for 20 mins work with water, air and paste was $160. Oh, 20 years, I responded. Since it was about 20 years before this one. ;D A lot more politely put than what I was thinking after forking over a day's wage. :D Back then was $60, I didn't mind that, but $160 is over the top. ;D Nope, dental insurance is probably $900 a year up here unless your drawing a government cheque. They know where the sun don't shine. ;D
When I was a state employee in Vo-tech schools, we could buy Delta Dental insurance. Our local street dentist works out of a provided dental suite by the regional hospital in Morehead, KY, same building as the their health clinic we go to. A crown for an e.g. was cheaper there than what the insurance covered when you factored in the insurance it was a pure waste unless you were looking at braces on a house full of kids, i.e. more than a typical families needs, ever.
My student dentist cleaned my teeth for years then they decided the hygentist they sometimes assigned to the students when a task took two people was reason to use them and more often too. Interestingly, my student is newly married, a covid wedding while the school was closed this summer, to another student from AK. They schedule them so as to permit her and him to assist each other. He's a hillbilly, she's a cutie from Anchorage, AK. I told her she needs to tell KY folks shes from the town by that name in AK, not KY, as we have one too. I teased them that I can see a dental office with MR. and MRS on the door.
I "draw" three guvment checks 8) in USD!
Good deal, Doc.
Off topic, but we have one of these:
H2oral Irrigator Floss Do You Hate to Floss? are You not Wanting to Spend A Fortune On A Water Flosser
Amazon.com: H2oral Irrigator Floss Do You Hate to Floss? are You not Wanting to Spend A Fortune On A Water Flosser: Health & Personal Care (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004V4RUZ4/ref=cm_sw_r_sm_apa_fabc_KQM9FbHDW0A45)
Quote from: kantuckid on January 06, 2021, 06:06:47 PM
I "draw" three guvment checks 8) in USD!
The ones that gets you a 'free' card here is the federal 'income supplement' and provincial 'social assistance' and provincial government union group rates on dental is extremely low compared to self employed on an Engineers group plan. Working man always pays, in full. Plus these schemes always drive up costs. Dad found that out on hearing aids. $2000 if no insurance, $8,000 if paid by workers comp insurance, same device. A device worth about $150 to begin with, been improved since the 70's. :D Heck if TV's was priced that way, I'd have to mortgage the house and they are 20x more powerful now than 1960 with built in computer and internet capable. Rome fell to, it will happen again when the have nots stand up. :D
FWIW category, our first color TV cost almost $400 in 1973 which google just told me was around $2,400 in 2020 USD. Canadian insurance on MC's is far higher than USA, but in the end the little people, worker bees as I call them, live well in on both sides of the border mostly.
The flosser I bought on Amazon- H2o Water Flosser Professional Cordless @ $35. Works OK too.
Covid here: 13 cases in my county of ~ 5k humans.
We get a daily web statement on FB from our County Judge Executive-comes in a county group run by the Co. Library's head librarian. No word there on vaccines, just how many postives or sick at the one nursing home and in the counties in our Development District group of counties(a political operation that doles out money stuff).
In spite of zero word from the main guy here my 25 year old niece texted my wife last night at around 8:30 p.m. that the regional hospital in Morehead(~30 miles) has vaccines for people over 70 years old in several named counties within their service area, one is ours. It is, maybe?, one of those drive up and get a shot affairs similar to their covid testing. Unclear at this time but seems to not be appointments which sounds like a "cluster" affair to me, so far.
Our guv said he was going to move vaccines from hospitals who had been sluggish in getting their allotments into an arm, to other hospitals.
My 96 yr old MIL with Alzheimers at home has still not got her shot as promised but the nursing homes over there have. It took over two days to get home health to come & do a catheter once she stopped urinating this weekend. Got close to the ambulance on that one.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on January 06, 2021, 08:59:46 PM
Off topic, but we have one of these:
H2oral Irrigator Floss Do You Hate to Floss? are You not Wanting to Spend A Fortune On A Water Flosser
Amazon.com: H2oral Irrigator Floss Do You Hate to Floss? are You not Wanting to Spend A Fortune On A Water Flosser: Health & Personal Care (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004V4RUZ4/ref=cm_sw_r_sm_apa_fabc_KQM9FbHDW0A45)
Thanks Dan I just ordered one. I have the waterpick and always make a mess.
KY vaccination story line:
Wife gets a text last night from our 25 yr old niece who lives 30k away in same town as the regional hospital, says they have vaccine for First Responders, health care workers and anyone over 70 at the hospital today-1/7/2021-thursday.
I look on the hospital website where it says thurs & fri, 7-4, first come-first serve, on the 2nd floor of such & such bldg..
I call the hospital and the operator says, "don't come", "honey", "the line is way around the block, people standing in the cold who probably won't even get a shot".
She goes on to say they think they'll run out ~ noon today and have no idea when more comes and to watch the hospital website for further info..
Hospital operators are great. I could call the Albany Medical Center 8 years after I left, and they still recognized my voice. One would ask how is Toto. "honey"! they were the first to know when I was dating a pediatric colleague, long before other pediatricians in residency knew. and yes long before I was married.
Doc,
How are you doing today after second shot?
Ron
back is a little sore, but related to taking down a couple cottonwoods, and a dozen ERC. and helping my neighbor @Jim Thomas (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=51700) sawdust jimmy unload their pod, as they sold their other house. all part of being 60. no symptoms so far from the second Pfizer shot.
Doc, wait till you hit 80! :-\
Wife and I got our first moderna shot today. We did get a "go to the head of the line" message last week. 84 years old with underlying conditions. (defective heart valve and brain damage from a stroke) for the wife and 84 years old and full time caregiver for me. I heard of some folks having mild flu-like symptoms from the shots, usually on the second day. Too nasty to do anything outside (misty rain and a few degrees above freezing) so I'll sit by the fire for next couple of days.
Quote from: pineywoods on January 07, 2021, 12:45:31 PMToo nasty to do anything outside (misty rain and a few degrees above freezing) so I'll sit by the fire for next couple of days.
We're excited about those same conditions and taking advantage to work on outside projects. :)
Glad to hear you got your vaccinations. Hopefully no side affects!
Alan
I opened this thread and forgot to click on the last page. I saw a post that said we have this one case in a certain county, but the poster was an hour away. Sad how far we've come. I remember being horrified when there was 1 case in my county, then 2, then 10, then 20. Well things have certainly changed. I'm still hoping for a downward trend now, but I get the feeling that not enough are gonna get vaccinated and this thing is gonna drag on for years. I'm hearing that out of any given group of folks only 50% are saying yes to the vaccine.
Hopefully that will change as time goes on and it proves itself.
Our county's hospital cases tripled last week compared to the previous few weeks, Christmas gatherings and downright stupidity.
I think the survey result on those wanting the vax here in the province is 75%, they were hoping for at least 65% and looks like that wiggle room will cover it. I'm certainly getting it when I can. I've had vax before, and no issues whatsoever. When I was a kid we all got the shot that I knew. No idea how the boat got off course over the years. From what I'm seeing, it wasn't the right direction or the sail fell down. Didn't help that last PM cancelled research. :D
things have slowed here a bit. I hope that is around the corner for everyone else.
Our numbers have levelled off a bit or at least the curve is not as steep as it once was. I sure hope that is followed by numbers starting to fall. Whether that will be because the holidays are over or because people are beginning to be vaccinated doesn't really matter I guess. Our last guy that was out with covid comes back tomorrow. If more get it, I hope it doesn't come in groups like it has in the last couple months. Its much easier to deal with one guy at a time.
Some states are doing better than other states in vaccinations. B-I-L lives on Big Pine Key Florida and got his shot yesterday. Only qualification is he is over 65. He said no big problem, but also said it varies by county and city. Not far away he said it was near impossible to get an appointment for the shot.
Here in Arkansas, our Governor said shots for over 70 will start around February 1. I looked at the website they had and only saw about 6 or 7 places in our county to get the shot. I imagine confusion and long lines will prevaile.
How do I trust companies that have criminal records?
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/pharmaceutical-giant-astrazeneca-pay-520-million-label-drug-marketing
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-pharmaceutical-company-merck-sharp-dohme-sentenced-connection-unlawful-promotion-vioxx
That's Merck, Astrazeneca, and Phizer. I didn't even look further than that; what's the point, they're all partnered together. A friend, who's a perfusionist turned me onto this. His relative was the mastermind behind the astrazeneca debacle. His punishment was nothing, he's now operating out of another country as a drug company ceo. Seriously, there are more hits for DOJ investigations, do I just dismiss them as nothing, and trust they're doing 'okay' this time because it's the right thing to do?
I wouldn't trust a career criminal with the keys to my house. Not looking for arguments, just answers on how to trust them. Remember, their first step to creating these vaccines was to receive complete immunity from prosecution/litigation arising from the use of these vaccines. I wouldn't have ever cared about that, until putting the given name, and DOJ into google.
Edit to add: The 3 links I presented aren't the only ones, and they don't represent all the fines, or legal proceedings from the DOJ, against these companies, there are others, I just presented the 1st hits on google as an example. Seriously, no arguments, but explain away the corruption in these companies, and how I can trust them. Thanks in advance for clearly thought out replies.
And auto makers are such angels. :D
The big news yesterday was the snow birds down in FL getting the vax, they were notified about it, if they are 65 or older, they can get a shot. I didn't know they was tracked that close to even know who or where to call, I mean a call from a health care provider. Gotta watch them snowbirds. :D
Some Canadian snowbirds in Florida are already getting the COVID-19 vaccine | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canadian-vaccine-snowbirds-florida-covid-19-1.5863640)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 08, 2021, 05:15:53 AM
The big news yesterday was the snow birds down in FL getting the vax, they were notified about it, if they are 65 or older, they can get a shot. I didn't know they was tracked that close to even know who or where to call, I mean a call from a health care provider. Gotta watch them snowbirds. :D
Some Canadian snowbirds in Florida are already getting the COVID-19 vaccine | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canadian-vaccine-snowbirds-florida-covid-19-1.5863640)
People down here are mad that out of staters and foreigners are getting the vax ahead of full time over 65 and with concerns residents.
How do I trust drug companies. I don't. These drugs were tested for safety and efficacy and reviewed by outside parties. That's about the best we can do at this point. Without the vaccine you will get the virus at some point, that is a greater risk in my mind. The anti vax crowd will keep the virus circulating and mutating for quite some time. There is no expertise or outside review of what they are saying. I certainly do not trust that conspiracy theory crowd, they are the self important child who says "I know a secret".
Quote from: Raider Bill on January 08, 2021, 08:37:16 AMPeople down here are mad that out of staters and foreigners are getting the vax ahead of full time over 65 and with concerns residents.
I wouldn't blame them one bit. The fact they are down there to begin with during this mess doesn't make them model citizens in my book.
Texas opening up with more vaccine and more locations available.
My youngest son's wife came down with it. She was tested at work and found to be positive. Runny nose thing for a week. My son Lon sleeping in the same bed with her never got it. was tested and all, nothing.
Quote from: Don P on January 08, 2021, 08:47:37 AM
How do I trust drug companies. I don't. These drugs were tested for safety and efficacy and reviewed by outside parties. That's about the best we can do at this point. Without the vaccine you will get the virus at some point, that is a greater risk in my mind. The anti vax crowd will keep the virus circulating and mutating for quite some time. There is no expertise or outside review of what they are saying. I certainly do not trust that conspiracy theory crowd, they are the self important child who says "I know a secret".
I agree. At least drug companies are tested, the products nearly always work properly, they are tested and inspected. As far as the conspiracy crowd "self important child" is a mild term.
Quote from: Don P on January 08, 2021, 08:47:37 AM
How do I trust drug companies. I don't. These drugs were tested for safety and efficacy and reviewed by outside parties. That's about the best we can do at this point. Without the vaccine you will get the virus at some point, that is a greater risk in my mind. The anti vax crowd will keep the virus circulating and mutating for quite some time. There is no expertise or outside review of what they are saying. I certainly do not trust that conspiracy theory crowd, they are the self important child who says "I know a secret".
I am not antivax, but influenza comes back every year, we need a 'shot' for it..C19 will be no different, as we get older we will need the 'shot' as we are at higher risk of it affecting different parts of an aging body. C19 does not kill us, it is the affects on our internal organs, and then those components fail, which kills us. A huge percentage of the dying from C19 is in long term care facilities. They have failing body parts and so C19 attacks the weaker components.
This is definitly a cash cow for the drug companies and I can understand the conspiracy thinking.
I do not trust the drug companies.
It's kinda hard to make a "one size fits all" statement concerning the C-19's effect on different age groups. Sure the older are more vulnerable but I have seen some seemingly healthy and younger folks taken out. It seems to be an individual thing, but what do I know?
PatD and I have received our vaccination appointment confirmations for Friday the 15th.
The first company to produce the vaccine also created Viagra, so we can only hope it is as successful as their earlier product in keeping up the health of the nation. 8)
TR,
Yeah but I think I read Viagra was supposed to be a heart medication which did not work but it had side effects they could market. :D
I went to our local VA Hospital yesterday and tried to get my ID card and and appointment for C-19 vaccination. They decided my income exceeded what the law allowed for VA treatment so they sent me away after basically telling me to go to the other VA center and lie about my hearing loss and get in that way, which I declined. I called my primary doctor and they are not involved in administering or scheduling vaccinations so I called out county health dept and they said they are working on the list of 70+ residents in the county and to watch the news and call back later.
Magic is right. It hits some young people hard and they still have to deal with after effects. Others, they don't suffer hardly any, young and old. A most curious virus. Except, a cold hits folks differently to depending on a lot of things: diet, bad habits, health......I've had colds last 2 days, some 2 weeks.
We've had a couple high profile deaths in our community in the past week that seem to have grabbed a lot of people's attention. A seemingly healthy and popular conservation officer died from complications from the virus and so did a pastor on town. Have only heard bits of gossip about the details so don't know how much is true.
Supposedly the DNR officer was laid low for an extended period of time by the virus and developed blood clots, which is what got him.
The pastor had leukemia but it was supposedly being managed well with no short term concerns and he was still working with a good long term prognosis when he got the virus and succumbed.
Alan
Quote from: Stephen1 on January 08, 2021, 10:08:01 PM
Quote from: Don P on January 08, 2021, 08:47:37 AM
How do I trust drug companies. I don't. These drugs were tested for safety and efficacy and reviewed by outside parties. That's about the best we can do at this point. Without the vaccine you will get the virus at some point, that is a greater risk in my mind. The anti vax crowd will keep the virus circulating and mutating for quite some time. There is no expertise or outside review of what they are saying. I certainly do not trust that conspiracy theory crowd, they are the self important child who says "I know a secret".
I am not antivax, but influenza comes back every year, we need a 'shot' for it..C19 will be no different, as we get older we will need the 'shot' as we are at higher risk of it affecting different parts of an aging body. C19 does not kill us, it is the affects on our internal organs, and then those components fail, which kills us. A huge percentage of the dying from C19 is in long term care facilities. They have failing body parts and so C19 attacks the weaker components.
This is definitly a cash cow for the drug companies and I can understand the conspiracy thinking.
I do not trust the drug companies.
Virus's mutate..nature of the beast. Likely we are in for annual shots, I would not be surprised. While we may not like or trust the pharmas the covid outbreak has nothing to do with them and instead we should be thankful big pharma was able to piviot quickly and respond. Here and elsewhere.
Young folks still having a tough time months later.
We were young and healthy, but our COVID recovery is taking months | Recovery - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSQmp4-ayo&t=245s)
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on January 09, 2021, 09:00:49 AM
TR,
Yeah but I think I read Viagra was supposed to be a heart medication which did not work but it had side effects they could market. :D
I went to our local VA Hospital yesterday and tried to get my ID card and and appointment for C-19 vaccination. They decided my income exceeded what the law allowed for VA treatment so they sent me away after basically telling me to go to the other VA center and lie about my hearing loss and get in that way, which I declined. I called my primary doctor and they are not involved in administering or scheduling vaccinations so I called out county health dept and they said they are working on the list of 70+ residents in the county and to watch the news and call back later.
A Veteran is a Veteran, regardless of your income.
Your income shouldn't have anything to do with your eligibility for treatment.
If I were in your position, I would climb up the ladder a couple of rungs!
some things VA are service connected, and others like transportation might be income based, but most anyone can get tests and medication, but in the past may mean waiting in line. so wealthy usually only use benefits if needed. check the health department. they also have these little clinics, and like other parts of the government, the receptionist, may run the place. :) I agree check back.
Quote from: Chuck White on January 09, 2021, 01:58:27 PM
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on January 09, 2021, 09:00:49 AM
TR,
Yeah but I think I read Viagra was supposed to be a heart medication which did not work but it had side effects they could market. :D
I went to our local VA Hospital yesterday and tried to get my ID card and and appointment for C-19 vaccination. They decided my income exceeded what the law allowed for VA treatment so they sent me away after basically telling me to go to the other VA center and lie about my hearing loss and get in that way, which I declined. I called my primary doctor and they are not involved in administering or scheduling vaccinations so I called out county health dept and they said they are working on the list of 70+ residents in the county and to watch the news and call back later.
A Veteran is a Veteran, regardless of your income.
Your income shouldn't have anything to do with your eligibility for treatment.
If I were in your position, I would climb up the ladder a couple of rungs!
Veterans have to hit certain criteria or income becomes a factor.
Too much and no VA care.
Happened to my friend. The $ cutoff was $34k. He made $42k. No care until it was too late.
The VA told him his recruiter promised him that he would always get care not the VA.
I fought the VA for decades, until the local service officer asked about my hearing, the door opened an now I am 10% disabled. If they had let me in sooner it would be less expensive, all I wanted was the prescription discount.
I was initially turned down by the VA for too much income but kept after it and finally had to send in proof that I served in a war zone, Viet Nam. The person that handled it that time said I shouldn't have had to, depends on whose doing the application review.
I am a Vietnam era veteran and was promised certain lifetime benefits when I enlisted.
Sometime after I was discharged Congress (Dick Cheney was the tie breaker) decided to change the rules. Now the VA has income based enrollment requirements. If one has a service connected disability the income requirements are waved.
I'm not eligible due to income and don't really want them. Of course that might change in the future.
The moral of the story.... don't trust the government.
Yeah I agree it is our Congress and not the VA policy causing the issue. A man there mentioned the service connected disability including hearing loss and ringing in my ears. I told him I had documented hearing loss and even had DoD waiver to work on military bases in Afghanistan stating I had high frequency lost but good hearing in normal speaking tones. Most of the hearing loss was probably from working around heavy, noisy equipment and machinery in the summers while in college and from shooting without proper hearing protection when I was younger. When we were on the range in USMC they made sure we all used good protection so I can't blame them. The guy at the VA kept saying go to their other site and get my hearing tested and tell them about the ringing in my ears and they'd give me the disability waiver. I told him I did not have a ringing in my ears then he winked and repeated to tell them about the ringing in my ears. I guess he meant well but not in my nature.
you deserve the benefit, but you to have flip the government threshold switch. I respect your honesty, but it is an "end justifies the means". i agree he meant well. usflag
I was in 3 years, at no time were we given, offered, or promised hearing protection. Yes, I have been around loud noise most of my life, but, nothing like madeuce, 3.5, plastique, m14 and heavy equipment. we came off the demo range in basic with ears ringing. Same on the .50 cal range. My release physical was a one page question sheet that never mentioned hearing. Doc signed off on it at some point, wouldn't know, never saw him.
VA was part of our contract. They failed.
My dad has terrible hearing and I have tried to get him to go to the VA and make a claim. His high frequency loss is surely caused by jet engines. He was mostly stationed on Okinawa during his time with the Vietnam conflict. He made trips in country occasionally, but mostly he serviced jets on the base ad Naha. My wife is an audiologist and tests veterans daily. Some of them are long out of service, some are getting their exit exam to determine what they lost while in service. Unfortunately she has an inordinate amount of folks trying to fake their exam. Most of the time she knows. Dad has never used the VA for any benefits, but he surely would qualify. I think he might even be able to claim something for the cancer he had. He has no interest.
Quote from: nativewolf on January 09, 2021, 09:45:11 AMVirus's mutate..nature of the beast. Likely we are in for annual shots, I would not be surprised. While we may not like or trust the pharmas the covid outbreak has nothing to do with them and instead we should be thankful big pharma was able to piviot quickly and respond. Here and elsewhere.
It appears this virus isn't mutating fast, and the current vaccines still appear effective against the newer mutations. The changes so far aren't big enough to change the way the virus operates. Of course that could change over time as mutations accumulate.
But the thing is the virus CAN be eradicated. NZ has done it (a couple of times), and it only comes back if new cases are imported. The vaccine should help other countries wipe out the virus, and if enough people are vaccinated then a random imported case isn't able to spread widely, and soon dies out.
But to do that, over this year as many people as possible (around the world) need to get vaccinated. I would hope that Govts and airlines soon put in place a requirement to be vaccinated to travel / enter their country. (or a LEGIT medical exemption). The US Govt can't force you to get vaccinated, but they can require that I be vaccinated as a condition of entry, and visa versa.
As you say, we might not like (or even trust) Big Pharma, but they are the ones with the solution to the problem because they have the expertise and resources to develop and test the vaccine (fast enough to help).
Yep, anti vex crowd is pretty small here but still way too many. I would not be so sure on covid ability or inability to mutate, So I assume worse.
New Zealand is a testament to good governance on this crisis. A stark contrast to the USA.
How are things otherwise? Any fun sawing?
Had a customer who said that his Grandfather, who he said was his best friend, went to a wedding where there were 300 people. 44 of those people contracted the virus, including the Grandfather. The Grandfather, shortly after the wedding, took my customer's Uncle, I assume the Grandfather's son, to the doctor. The Uncle got it, his Aunt got it, his Grandmother got it, and another Aunt got it. Grandfather died quickly, Uncle died, one Aunt died, Grandmother on a ventilator probably will not survive, the other Aunt doing OK. A family tragedy.
When I was ordering my new Ranger at the local Case IH dealer, the salesman said they are fogging the counters and bathrooms at their store, and none of the employees have had a cold this year.
It's so easy for young and healthy folks to think this thing is not dangerous and that the risk of vaccine is worse than the risk of getting sick. They either don't hear about sad stories like this, which have been all too often, or they don't care. I had an acquaintance on FB who cited the doctor in Florida who died from a possible adverse reaction to the vaccine as reason that no one should get the vaccine. Even if the vaccine was the cause of death, he was one of at least 2 million who had received the vaccine at that time. I let this kid know that if the same 2 million had gotten covid, its almost certain that 10,000 would have died. He disregarded this fact and is no longer my friend on FB. The only reason he was a friend was because he is a tree service guy and possible source of logs.
Quote from: farmfromkansas on January 10, 2021, 09:10:43 AM
When I was ordering my new Ranger at the local Case IH dealer, the salesman said they are fogging the counters and bathrooms at their store, and none of the employees have had a cold this year.
Everything was in the middle of lock down when I got mine. Not allowed in the door of the building, except employees. A week later they were allowed to let you in, but only to do business and it was straight to the salesman's office. Lots of questions on COVID before entry.
Just found out, I am in the next layer of folks to get vaccinated. Supposed to go get it tomorrow afternoon. They did the medical folks (police, fire and first responders as well) roughly 10 days ago.
We received our first shot today, no immediate discomfort. Distribution of shot still random in Texas. My old college room mate north of Austin said they have no vaccine in their county, see a lot of that.
Quote from: Nebraska on January 11, 2021, 04:42:04 PM
Just found out, I am in the next layer of folks to get vaccinated. Supposed to go get it tomorrow afternoon. They did the medical folks (police, fire and first responders as well) roughly 10 days ago.
Amazing. MO governor keeps saying MO is doing well, right on track, ahead of many other states. As near as I can tell we are nowhere near to being done with phase 1A. Some ff/emt types in the Stl area have gotten vaccinated, but not in my county. Other than the hospital and nursing homes, my county has seen no vaccine. They have said they are working on a list. They are not working on a list. Maybe they are working on working on maybe someday thinking about somehow making a list.
FFOTS, why does that NOT surprise me?
often there are just a few people making decisions in a county. need to be a squeaky wheel. We think we have done well, but we have weekly covid meetings with the clinics, health dept., the prison, and all the departments of the hospital, Id, respiratory therapy ect., ect. At least we all tell ourselves we are doing great, but maybe we have overlooked a group or two. only know if they call up and say "when do we get our vaccines". sure hate for any to go to waste.
@Nebraska (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=45256) and @Texas Ranger (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7) that's great for you guys. It makes me happy to hear of friends getting the vaccine. Cindy still has no ill affects.
It's pretty crazy here in NY. The governor has determined who will get it first and has implemented a million dollar fine if the providers give one shot to someone not in that group. Well they thaw it and give out a couple shots to those that are qualified to get it then throw out the rest to avoid fines. The providers have their hands tied and it doesn't make sense to me to waste a precious item for no reason. They originally talked about a chip to prove you got it but now I heard they are looking into an app that will be scanned to allow you to go into public places like sporting events only if you have been vaccinated.
Quote from: 21incher on January 11, 2021, 11:04:06 PMThey originally talked about a chip to prove you got it but now I heard they are looking into an app that will be scanned to allow you to go into public places like sporting events only if you have been vaccinated.
Why do we need an app or a chip? If you did not get the vaccine then you are vulnerable, if you have the vaccine then you are safe.
Once you receive the first shot you have the option to set up a phone app with someone (govt) to monitor your reaction to the shot. They email once a day for a week or so to see how you reacted to the shot, then every couple of weeks, then every couple of months. All in a effort to see the effectiveness and reaction to a particular source.
An intrusion into your life? No, part of science to make sure they have the right approach.
I am not against the app to help monitor the vaccine effects.
I am against a chip or app that allows our movement in society.
Yesterday I got an email from Baptist Hospital in Lexington, KY saying they had not chosen me for their covid vaccine trials. it came long after those trials had chosen the participants. In that same city's newspaper that day it had an article saying the same very large hospital was apologizing for giving the vaccine to some who weren't in the early eligible groups.
Today at 8:54 a.m., I got an email from my small regional hospital who also operates our local rural medical center where we get most of our medical needs met. The email had a link to a form to obtain an appointment for a covid vaccination on either this thursday or friday and you checked your eligibility criteria, as health care worker, first responder or over 70. I did it within 2-3 minutes of receipt and got an email at 11:54 a.m. saying the supply had been depleted. It said further that the staff would call or message me with either an appointment or more info., when they had more vaccine.
At least they decided to do appointments instead of the cluster they created what with people conglomerated on the 2nd floor then around the block, etc., for the vaccine last weeks vaccinations.
Not one word has been given forth from our area health district which has beautiful buildings, lots of staff, in each of 5 counties.
In KY news I see where the issues are who will give the shots. Most anyone who lives here can think of a bunch of people who'd do so IF! they had the vaccine. Based on numbers our guv gives out the vaccines IS in KY now.
When you get the first injection, don't they give you a card to show them, when you show up for the second injection? :P
That way they'll know that you've had both injections! ;)
There were suggestions months ago that some sort of proof of vaccination could be required to be able to do things. I think those were just conjecture that never really were seriously considered.
They do give you a card so that they can be sure when you had your first shot and what vaccine you got. That way you'd be sure to get the second one at the right time and that you get the right vaccine. My wife has had no side effects other than a rash from the bandaid they put over her injection site.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55256/20210112_163134.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610494665)
Here is my vaccination card. I was given the Modurna vaccine. Needle was tiny ;)
the vaccination clinc was in the fire hall a couple towns over. I feel fine and if I have any issues I will share them. I think most of rural Nebraska could get vaccinated (that wants to) in fairly short order doing it the way this was handled. Simple and well organized.
That not wanting to get vaccinated like me. Isn't going to last. I think over time you will be required to show that card to do or get into many places you need to go
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on January 12, 2021, 05:39:20 PM
There were suggestions months ago that some sort of proof of vaccination could be required to be able to do things. I think those were just conjecture that never really were seriously considered.
They do give you a card so that they can be sure when you had your first shot and what vaccine you got. That way you'd be sure to get the second one at the right time and that you get the right vaccine. My wife has had no side effects other than a rash from the bandaid they put over her injection site.
They were just talking about a tracking app last week in the press conference. I think they are trying to convince people to get the vaccine by offering extra perks as they want to open up Football games soon and restaurants. For about 3 months our Governor was saying don't trust the vaccine so that scared many about its safety. Now they realize it's the only way to beat this pandemic. looks like it will be some time before it's available in our area.
Well, I am not worried about this. My wife and I do plan to get vaccinated when it is available, but it is not a burning issue, there are too many who need it more than we do (she is 70 I am 65).
Every time @firefighter ontheside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=26921) mentions the impact on his crew I cringe, this is more of a concern to me than my wife and I. His situation is being replicated all over the country (and the world).
Not too long ago, just a few years I was an active Fire Service instructor and I taught with a team who would go to local department to do their annual OSHA Fire Service refresher. I was one of the guys on the team that had a free-hand class, in that I decided what subject I was teaching that year. Although this sounds like I had it easy because I was picking my own topic, it was actually harder because I had to create a complete new class each year that was accurate, detailed, and focused on what was killing or injuring Firefighters. This took a lot of research all year round. As part of that I had a subscription to the announcements of Firefighter fatalities among other things and although I don't teach anymore, I maintain that subscription and I get an email about each new fatality as soon as it is listed. It is my way of noting their service, mourning their loss, and honoring their sacrifice in my own private way. I may have left the job, but it hasn't left me.
When I first started keeping track, the average yearly number was well over 100 Firefighters killed in the line of duty. In the last few years I was teaching, due largely to education efforts, widespread protocol changes across the country, and other initiatives, it had dropped to around 60 or a few more each year. This is still a high number, but it was much better. In 2019,there were 64. In the past years I have noticed these reports come in much more frequently and in 2020 we lost 96 Firefighters in the line of duty and way too many of these are Covid. These are not "he died in a fire and tested positive for Covid, so it's a Covid death", these are directly related to positive contact(s). Today is the twelfth of January and already this year we have 11 LODD. This saddens me greatly that it is taking so long to get this vaccine out to those who REALLY need it most. Police Officers are in the same boat. Imagine going to work everyday knowing it might be the day a perp rips your mask off or a patient coughs or sneezes in your face. I have suffered through a transmittable exposure while on the job, and let me tell you, it is no fun, because had I become infected it would have been a life changing event. I went through holy heck on that one because of the way the privacy laws are written, no way to get the patient tested, I was 'on my own'.
I know this is the 'just the facts thread' so I won't comment with my thoughts, but I will say that I have signed up for everything they have told us to and went through all the questionnaires my state and county have online and when you get to the bottom line it is this: 'Yes, you are qualified, but there is no more vaccine available in your area, we will let you know when'. They are saying 'over 65' became eligible in our state today and yet they have not finished vaccinating tier 1a (direct healthcare providers) or tier 1b yet. How can this be? The politicians are falling over themselves trying to make it look like they did their jobs in a first class way in spite of the facts. I just want to know that our dedicated public service employees who have continued to do their jobs without a hitch all the way through this should have a red carpet to the front of the line. Were I still on the job, I would expect no less. I can wait, their lives depend on it, every day they go to work. They mean a lot more to 'us' than I do.
FFOTS, thank you so much for your service and the many thousands like you doing the job every day. I think about you every day. When my email pings with that almost daily bad news, I hang my head for all of you and I think of the 5 bells. I thought I had it bad when I was an EMS Captain during the H1N1 thing, but this is something on a whole new level I still can't wrap my brain around.
Thanks OG. Firefighterclosecalls I assume is what you're referring to.
As I think I said before, this has been the most challenging year in my almost 29 year career. So many new challenges to deal with, yet still having to do all the usual stuff. My guys have done an outstanding job this past year and will continue to do. We had a fire in a crematorium a few weeks ago. I was safe outside standing at the command center, but my guys had to move bodies that were staged for cremation to a different part of the building so that they didn't get burned. Ironic I know. They couldn't help but wonder how many of the deceased had died of covid and were they exposed/contaminated. First fire I've had like that in 29 years, so of course it would happen in 2020.
I feel fortunate to live where I do, the way things were run today was great. They could do a lot of people in fairly short order that way.. Roughly 10 days ago our police, fire and other first responders got their first dose, health care providers and workers were first in line to get vaccine before them. They have been doing the nursing homes as well. This process really doesn't have to be hard with lots of extra stupid rules. For kicks I checked myself with a micro chip reader afterwards (didn't pick up a signal) so I dont think I'm marked.....there was no mention of a phone app...... just took my email and a phone number to txt a reminder for the booster. Card is too big for billfold so I don't think its an expected carry thing.
I think I'm in one of the states that probably would have been better if it had been done from the fed level but water under the bridge at this point. It's always easier to quarterback from the couch. We're all close, just gotta stay safe a bit longer.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on January 12, 2021, 08:33:39 PM
Thanks OG. Firefighterclosecalls I assume is what you're referring to.
As I think I said before, this has been the most challenging year in my almost 29 year career. So many new challenges to deal with, yet still having to do all the usual stuff. My guys have done an outstanding job this past year and will continue to do. We had a fire in a crematorium a few weeks ago. I was safe outside standing at the command center, but my guys had to move bodies that were staged for cremation to a different part of the building so that they didn't get burned. Ironic I know. They couldn't help but wonder how many of the deceased had died of covid and were they exposed/contaminated. First fire I've had like that in 29 years, so of course it would happen in 2020.
Actually no, when I retired and tried to heal, I dropped pretty much all of the subscriptions I had because the chatter in my email was overwhelming me. Chief Goldfedder and that organization is a fine one and I met Billy, at a seminar one time. I recall that when I shook his hand and introduced myself he smiled at me and said "nice moustache!" I blushed, truly, because if you have ever met or seen the Chief, he has a substantial 'stache, and compared to his, mine was in puberty. :D I was a devoted reader of his work and used much of his stuff in my classes when it applied. I read all his stuff and his daily emails. I even had my own blog contributing to the collective knowledge called 'Unlimited Unscheduled hours' or something like that, but all that material is, I am sure, gone now. There were a number of us that put out daily or weekly stuff about life on the job. I hope some of them are still at it. I had to separate myself from it all so I lost track. I had a copy of Chief Billy's DVD on my shelf, but I donated it to the department when I left. If you haven't seen "Everybody goes home" you should, and share it with your crew. I may have got the title slightly wrong, but you will find it.
No, I get the daily emails from the USFA, they have a different tally from the NFPA (different criteria) but they both give the gist. NFPA is more time consuming, delayed, and usually lower. We would give a summary of both during our OSHA classes, but a death is a death and every single one sucks, especially if it could have been avoided by a procedural change. Each one represents a family, a Department, and a community. Training deaths are the ones that always haunted me, so unnecessary and largely avoidable. I have experienced training situations from the student perspective (FAST team training) where i clearly told the instructor I was beyond my limit (while in a live burn building trying to carry a 250 pound limp man up 2 flights of stairs) and the instructor got in my ear and screamed "WELL THEN i GUESS YOU ARE BOTH GOING TO DIE RIGHT HERE!" in his best Marine DI voice. No doubt it made him feel like a real instructor that was going to drill into me the severity of the situation and how I had do 'dig deeper', but with a mature 50 year old, he missed the point, I kept going but I was in severe distress, I didn't think I would survive that. This is how people get dead in training. I had served as the EMS officer on several of that instructor's training sessions and we came to disagreements often. I once took one of his students out of the game for a live burn and he was pithed at me no end. Really angry, but they guy didn't pass the look test, and he sure didn't get by on the vitals. I told the guy he needed to see a Doc within 48 hours, he had issues. He was ticked at me too, he wanted to finish the class. He did go to a Doc, and had 4 stents put in within 72 hours of that class. SO who was right? And who cares? Well I suppose he (the student) does. That same instructor had a regular track record of ambulances dispatched to his drills for transport.
The point of all this is, I care about you guys, I know the cost you wager every day, and I think we, as a country, should be doing a lot better by you with this virus, that's all.
Quote from: Chuck White on January 12, 2021, 01:16:51 PM
When you get the first injection, don't they give you a card to show them, when you show up for the second injection? :P
That way they'll know that you've had both injections! ;)
Yep, I still have my vaccine cards from any I have gotten over my lifetime in the safe. ;D
I showed up for the second shot, and did not have the first card. they looked in the computer and made me a second card, and gave me the booster. Us docs need lots of help... now where is that second card? :)
Regarding the general subject of who's been vaccinated, who not, late afternoon yesterday, I called my 71 yr old neighbor (77 yr old wife, like myself) to see if he could help me move lumber today. Knowing that he and his wife are among those many seniors who are non-computer people and that both of them also use the same health care system as we do, I asked if they'd been called about the covid shots as I had been called. No, he said, zero contact.
My wife, age 72, also uses the same system and when she finally got home late yesterday from over 48 hours of alzhiemer's duty, neither has she been messaged online or by phone.
The facts above indicate something is wrong about the vaccine rollout here within our own healthcare system. All four people I mentioned are in the over 70 group and get all their Rx and various other medical needs met by that healthcare provider. They do have computerized records of all my vaccinations and much more. When I mashed my finger late last fall and asked when was my last tetanus shot, I said too long to remember and they quickly looked it up online.
I saw in yesterdays nearest cities TV news that their mayor has gathered a new taskforce to handle the rollout of vaccine as it's too sluggish and not all in 1A have been done yet others are due for the 2nd shot. They continue to say there are too few people to give the shots-she pointed out they have ~ 300,000 population.
OK, what WAS? the plan before now? I don't buy that one at all. Maybe in Timbuktu but not in a city full of healthcare people.
Typical of a politician to call a group, committee, taskforce, whatever when those with that responsibility don't do what's should have already been done?
I'm not frazzled but this IS about peoples lives. Within the small group (all seniors themselves and covid shot eligible) that provides care to my MIL in home, 24/7, two have covid now and the rest are wondering when any of them can get the shot. Not one of them lives in the same place excepting 3 locals in that county plus the 97 yr old patient. My BIL lives in Louisville a medium large city 200+ miles west, SIL lives in Lexington 135+ miles west and we are 75 miles west of there. My MIL remains on "the list" of the home healthcare group their area health district keeps.
Many of the health department officials, tend to be young, and cannot fathom that there are folks that do not read the paper, watch the news, or listen to the radio, let alone are on face book and such. Even if you have a regular doc, they may rely on a computer to put you on a list. the systems were not designed to do this. If you or people you know are being missed, you should be able to contact a health department. although they may have a message telling you to follow them on face book. :( ;) :)
Just thought I'd give you all an update.
We are fully open. bars, restaurants. movie theaters (we went to a movie last week) you name it. about a 1% uptick daily (.7 yesterday), which is a little above this summer. No forced mask mandates except for hospitals. every place else have signs posted, but mainly for insurance purposes and they don't enforce it.
Big mask study released a few weeks ago, compared all counties in the US. compared side by side counties with mask mandates and those with out. compared states with lock downs and those with out. In south Florida they compared 5 counties in the miami area. 3 with mask mandates, 2 without. Mask mandated counties have 23 cases per 100k. non mask mandate counties 17 cases per 100k. As a whole mask mandate counties have higher rates.
i went to see an eye specialist (i had eye surgery last week) back in dec. i had my mask on and was doing a test and when i pulled my chin off the rest, my mask came down. the doctor got very agitated and said if i wasn't going to wear my mask then i'd have to leave. i dryly said "these don't help anyway, but i'm putting it back on" He went on to say these save thousands of lives as they filter all your breath blah, blah, blah. Then i asked him why are your glasses fogging up? he was silent for about a good 10 seconds, then muttered he hadn't thought of that.
number of tests are way down here, but % of positives are up, so they (the media) claims we are out of control, when it's rate of spread is almost flat, with an occasional spike for a day here and there. reason testing is down is most people aren't worried about, unlike before.
We went to 2 CHRISTmas parties, 20 plus at each. Same on new years. no outbreaks
My oldest (31) daughter took the vaccine, came down with the virus 5 days later. she's better now, but did get fairly sick. My 30 yr old son caught it and didn't know he had it. slight head cold. he woodnt've known, but his mother caught it and she had a fever and winded for a few days. So he got tested.
so far i think 10 dead from the vaccine. many, many have caught it after the first jab. Reactions are about 50x higher than the flu vaccine. we will NOT get it. wife told the office manager and that is fine. dr. fauci said that the vaccines won't stop you from getting it, just lowers the symptoms. Most people don't have symptoms or so mildly they woodn't know. i understand if your elderly or have comorbidities, then i'd take it also. at this point if you're younger and healthy, too many unknowns long term with mRNA vaccines.
Wife still is seeing covid patients daily. only has lost 1. a 77 year old hispanic man that didn't go to ER as directed until 4 days later. everyone in the clinic has caught it except my wife and the other doctor.
most allergic reactions are mild, and similar to any vaccine. I have not heard of anyone dying from the vaccine since rolled out. I will look. The test rate is up, due to docs and patients knowing well now the symptoms and only test if almost sure they have the disease. that is why the % is up, and total testing is down. also mask use tends to be mandated in high prevalence areas and higher populated areas. many have viral type symptoms, but this is a positive sign the vaccine is inducing the immune system. also just because masks are mandated, does not people comply or wear the mask correctly. I have worked 8 inches from the face of positive folks replacing their breathing tubes, and at high risk. I still have not got covid, and happy to have the vaccine. when enough have had it or had the vaccine, then the numbers will drop off, and not until. We are seeing almost no influenza so far this year, and we think that is due to mitigation including masks. usually get hit with it in November. out 4 point test, tests for covid, both influenzas and RSV.
there are deaths being investigated in proximity to getting the vaccine. the most notable is a 56 y/o doc who got thrombocytopenia 2 weeks after getting it. No evidence so far that it caused it, but even if it did, numbers are much better with the vaccine so far, than the disease. our overweight Hispanic diabetics are hit hard. we are seeing the thrombotic issues in those know to have covid a month or so before, and many of these are dying. When people code with covid complications, they are not as likely to be successfully revived. Many at risk folks survive, but when dead, they are very dead. Your immunity from the vaccine takes time, just like if you had the virus, and increases over days and weeks.
My wife and I cannot get through to the Health Department to schedule the vaccination. We have called the number we are supposed to call to schedule hundreds of times. Busy. System overloaded. This morning I called 110 straight times, back to back, nope. Busy, busy, busy. Process is dysfunctional here.
Thats interesting about the mask - unmask studies, Can you send me a link to those studies.
I live in rural small town area. We are not exposed to a lot of people so I do not have quite the fear.
We have been placed under emergency lockdown as of midnight tonight for the whole province of Ontario. this is ludicris, Ontario is as larger or larger than Texas. It take 30 hrs to drive through this province. The cases are in the large urban city areas and so they should lock down.
Quote from: doc henderson on January 13, 2021, 08:41:49 AM
most allergic reactions are mild, and similar to any vaccine. I have not heard of anyone dying from the vaccine since rolled out. I will look. The test rate is up, due to docs and patients knowing well now the symptoms and only test if almost sure they have the disease. that is why the % is up, and total testing is down. also mask use tends to be mandated in high prevalence areas and higher populated areas. many have viral type symptoms, but this is a positive sign the vaccine is inducing the immune system. also just because masks are mandated, does not people comply or wear the mask correctly. I have worked 8 inches from the face of positive folks replacing their breathing tubes, and at high risk. I still have not got covid, and happy to have the vaccine. when enough have had it or had the vaccine, then the numbers will drop off, and not until. We are seeing almost no influenza so far this year, and we think that is due to mitigation including masks. usually get hit with it in November. out 4 point test, tests for covid, both influenzas and RSV.
The vast, vast, vast majority of masks are not the 95 or 100's that you are most likely wearing. I've said those work all along. Plus you know how to wear it. A cloth mask that blows it out all around the mask doesn't do a darn thing. My wife wears a 95 and that's prolly why my wife hasn't gotten it yet either most likely, although there are families where one gets sick and the rest show no symptoms but test positive and some don't test positive, don't get it and don't have antibodies. Mask compliance is 90%+ in mask mandated counties. I think around 95%, so non compliance isn't the issue.
We live in Oklahoma county. Most populated county. Hospitals are stressed, but not so much because of no room. Mostly because of staffing and many nurses and related have left for the lock down states where the out breaks are the worse for some reason. The other reason is the covid unemployment that techs can make the same amount sitting at home, why work.
On the deaths, yes, many more due to covid than the vaccine and if I was over 65 or had any comorbidities, I'd be getting jabbed. Of those, correct, can't say for sure it was, but they had no issues, than passed within a short time. That's world wide, not in US alone.
Agreed on the influenza. Mitigating helps, unsure what ones are, but if somethings not helping for covid, it is doubtful it helps for the flu.
Quote from: Stephen1 on January 13, 2021, 09:19:04 AM
Thats interesting about the mask - unmask studies, Can you send me a link to those studies.
I live in rural small town area. We are not exposed to a lot of people so I do not have quite the fear.
We have been placed under emergency lockdown as of midnight tonight for the whole province of Ontario. this is ludicris, Ontario is as larger or larger than Texas. It take 30 hrs to drive through this province. The cases are in the large urban city areas and so they should lock down.
masks studies show that if implementing masks fully and completely across a country than you can irradicate covid. Half measures and doing so belatedly only show lesser success and much delayed. Sweeden vs Scandinavia and New Zealand vs USA would be the studies to look for.
Sorry to hear about the lockdown, locking down Ontario without locking down other provinces is not going to help, I would guess. Too late, half measures. New Zealand did it right and @Ianab (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=460) has posted regularly on the topic and posted using facts, not rumors.
Hand washing face masks and distancing helps. No if and or buts about it. Doing so half heartedly and late doesn't help as much as it could have.
Wife and I and a good dozen friends have had the first shot. Three days ago for us, and no side effects other than the normal injection discomfort. All of us over 70, I don't have any facts about the virus, other than our county (Polk) has about twice the state rate of infection, about the same for USA infections, and not quite double the world infections. We are an older retirement community with a lot of folks out of the oil/chemical patch with underlying heart and lung issues. .00126 percent of the county populations have died from covid. .027 death rate for those known to have had covid. .015 for the state rate.
Don't know what all this has to do with the price of eggs, but darn happy to have had the first shot, and 4 weeks to the next one.
Quote from: Stephen1 on January 13, 2021, 09:19:04 AM
Thats interesting about the mask - unmask studies, Can you send me a link to those studies.
I live in rural small town area. We are not exposed to a lot of people so I do not have quite the fear.
We have been placed under emergency lockdown as of midnight tonight for the whole province of Ontario. this is ludicris, Ontario is as larger or larger than Texas. It take 30 hrs to drive through this province. The cases are in the large urban city areas and so they should lock down.
sure. They even break it down within states with counties that have mask mandates right next to counties that do not have mandates and this shows that masks make it worse. you can go to their website and read how they did it and you can make your own conclusions. there's also a study from finland i think that shows cloth type masks don't help. i've posted a picture before that shows what happens with clothe masks. it just go around the mask as they don't fit tight. 95s and 100s properly fitted most likely do help and prolly help a lot
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53840/mask_study.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1610548675)
Quote from: nativewolf on January 13, 2021, 09:30:01 AM
Quote from: Stephen1 on January 13, 2021, 09:19:04 AM
Thats interesting about the mask - unmask studies, Can you send me a link to those studies.
I live in rural small town area. We are not exposed to a lot of people so I do not have quite the fear.
We have been placed under emergency lockdown as of midnight tonight for the whole province of Ontario. this is ludicris, Ontario is as larger or larger than Texas. It take 30 hrs to drive through this province. The cases are in the large urban city areas and so they should lock down.
masks studies show that if implementing masks fully and completely across a country than you can irradicate covid. Half measures and doing so belatedly only show lesser success and much delayed. Sweeden vs Scandinavia and New Zealand vs USA would be the studies to look for.
Sorry to hear about the lockdown, locking down Ontario without locking down other provinces is not going to help, I would guess. Too late, half measures. New Zealand did it right and @Ianab (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=460) has posted regularly on the topic and posted using facts, not rumors.
Hand washing face masks and distancing helps. No if and or buts about it. Doing so half heartedly and late doesn't help as much as it could have.
No, sorry they probably don't. quarantine of the infected and limiting or stopping people from coming in and being an isolated island can and do help though. california and new york are locked down and have the strictest mask mandates since this started and have the worst outbreaks. go figure.
Our governor announced yesterday at noon 1B (over 70) shots would start this coming Monday. He said get on a list at your local pharmacy.
At 2:00 I called three. On hold forever at the first. The second two the phone was answered on the second ring by a real person. Got on the list at both. I suspect its going to be a long time before they call back and tell me to come for the shot. Hope I'm wrong.
Since the word is out I bet its impossible to get through on the phone today.
Our Governor Newsom (Nuisance, Needsome... nephew of Palosi) lives in Sacramento County that has a ICU bed availability of ~9%. Being less than 15%, the county is on lock down meaning no inside or outside dining, no hair or nail salons, etc. Yesterday, around noon, he announced that Sac county is out of lock down because the trend line is predicting the ICU % to increase above the lock down threshold. Heath officials are stunned. ::)
Quote from: ljohnsaw on January 13, 2021, 10:08:32 AM
Our Governor Newsom (Nuisance, Needsome... nephew of Palosi) lives in Sacramento County that has a ICU bed availability of ~9%. Being less than 15%, the county is on lock down meaning no inside or outside dining, no hair or nail salons, etc. Yesterday, around noon, he announced that Sac county is out of lock down because the trend line is predicting the ICU % to increase above the lock down threshold. Heath officials are stunned. ::)
it prolly has to do with who/what is happening next week in dc. i see new yorks terrible leader said that they needed to end the lockdowns all of a sudden or they wouldn't have an economy...... gee, ya think.
the cdc also said they will reduce the replication threshold rate on the nCov testing, which will dramatically lower the number of false positives. this will create the narrative that somebody was able to dramatically lower the positive rate. i'll not say who.
hard to know but I think the increased covid rates are causing the mandates, and not masks increasing covid. Mostly every minute at work I wear a pleated mask with the two elastic strings. I also wash or sanitize in and out of rooms, socially distance when i can, (while eating and no mask on). I escalate up to an N95 or papre as "needed" when someone is really sick, and needs an airway. with the near absent Influenza, the masks are helping. and even though we have a mask mandate, nearly half of the Walmart shoppers are without one. mid-west folk somehow think it is a constitutional right not to wear one. I think even the homemade cloth masks are deflecting a cough better than the proverbial elbow, and at least the virus is not a "jet stream"! i hope there is light around the corner, and this will just be a memory soon.
you might be right doc, but the numbers don't show that. those location have had the hardest lock downs and hardest mask mandates, yet they have the largest outbreaks. area's that are open are fairing much better.
like i said bars are open and no masks required. we're open everywhere and some reason we're only at a .7% increase yesterday and around a 1 usually.
yes, deflection is helped, but it's the aerosols that are the issue. large particles drop almost immediately. aerosols stay suspended for hours and no mask save the 95 or 100 stops them.
yes agreed, this has not been very fun or nice for many
This observation is by no means a scientific study But it probably should be done as a study.
What I notice locally is that the mask wearers pretty much ignore social distancing rules and I don't think it is an intentional disregard for the rules, but rises out of a false sense of security BECAUSE they are wearing a mask.
I know I work hard to do both as my wife works in the medical industry as general administrator/manager at the larger of the 2 clinics in town and is also largely responsible for running the walk-in as well.
When I am out and about out of necessity, I do wear a mask even though I hate it. AND I notice that people wearing masks (everybody right now by public mandate) will pretty much ignore the 6' distance markers/regulation untill I stop and backup and then they will back off a bit and apologize (mostly).
I think a bit of public awareness information/training may be in order to override the false sense of security it seems wearing a mask is passively causing.
I signed up for the after-shot follow-up. here's how it works. Use your smartphone to connect to the cdc link. It will ask only for 3 things 1-the manufacturer of the vaccine. 2 your first name 3-the phone number of your phone. Then, on a daily basis, you will get a text message from cdc asking if you have any underlying conditions or side effects and if so a brief description. A none reply for several days will cease the inquires. This info is entered into a side effects database used to analyze possible side effects. There are several known side effects, mostly quite mild and short lived. I had a mild chill on the second day, lasted about an hour. I was interested because I have a nasty reaction to flu shots and I had recently gotten one.
Sedgehammer ill tell you publicly now. You were previously suspended for the way you interact in theses type of topics. You only have one forum life left. I'd suggest living it very long and wisely by staying out of this topic. Just a suggestion.
And just like that I have an appointment tomorrow at 12:45 for my first dose of vaccine.
Been on 3 sites here and no appts available right now.
A friend and his wife got them right away.
I tried Monday the 11th and none available, but kicked me over to another site that said one available on Jan 18th
I was really happy until I looked closely and it was January 18th 2022.
For crying out loud I may be dead of old age (or Covid)by then.
Pete, I only met you once, at Jake's place.
I'll bet you're good for another coupla decades.
Keep your stick on the ice and your eye on the puck. . . . you'll be good! 😆
Just an update, no issues from the vaccine so far except for minor soreness at the injection site. Sorry to hear about the issues others have had so far. @firefighter ontheside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=26921) Glad you are getting vaccinated.
My folks, in their mid 80's, reported the same, minor soreness at the injection site but no problems. Hopefully my wife can get on the 1b list in a couple of weeks.
Well, one dose is on board. So far a tiny bit of soreness in my shoulder, as with any vaccine shot. Next dose is scheduled for Feb. 2. Groundhog day....not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing.
I'll let them shoot my left shoulder-might lubricate the titanium cable and screws in there?
My wife who is apparently less known to our vaccine giver, called our local health dept today to be told "we don't know anything about covid vaccinations".
In other counties in this same state that's who's giving the shots! ::)
Dad called me and said he was told the VA is vaccinating vets 75 and older. He said he tried calling the VA hospital in Stl but got nowhere. He has never used the VA for any medical care and is not registered. I doubt he's gonna get anywhere, especially in the next few weeks before vaccine is available at the health dept. I have a friend who works there who's checking on things for me. It sure would be nice to get him in there though.
The same dental college I go to, same student group, also services the VA center located right behind the building I walk into on U of KY campus. Once in awhile a student is a vet and they'll also be using the same GI money some of us used for school and they get assigned to the VA place more often. I prefer going there at the college directly as the specialists are all there for a consult. You just change floors and no fed guvment hassles. Our income from teacher retirement affects VA services for me so I take my KY teacher retirement medicare (provided with our Medicare at no cost) supplemental where ever I choose, small co-payments, etc.. Of course with dental zero insurance as for most folks.
I'm about 20 hours post shot and I woke up at 4am with a headache, but not terrible. The arm is sore, but that is just like other vaccine shots. I had anthrax vaccine a few months ago. That really made my arm sore. I have one more of those as its a 3 shot series. I think that's coming up soon.
I've confirmed that signing dad up for VA is not gonna happen in a timely fashion. He will just have to wait til the county health dept. has it. That should be still this month.
They announced yesterday to do 65+ residents (1b?) in my county (80,000 pop.) but are only allotted 3,000/week but have the capacity to administer 7,400/week. So if all 65+ want the shot, it will take somewhere between 26 or as little as 11 weeks to work through that group. That's if the 3,000 doses continue to show up as it has been as little at 100 doses/week being delivered. Warp speed has slowed to molasses in my county. We are mostly rural and right leaning in a left state.
Is your 80,000 the total population or the number of seniors. the people in 1A would not be in that group, as well people who have had covid in the past 3 months, and the people who refuse the shot, and those under 65. I hope you get it soon. If we have a new pandemic every year, we will get these details ironed out. but this is new, and not something were planning on. Hope you get it (vaccine) soon.
For those who are hesitant to get the vaccine food for thought.
Have a lovely day and stay safe. :)
If you’ve ever sat in a hotel hot tub, don't worry about what’s in the vaccine | 22 Minutes - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzbsZXT7LWk)
One thing that should help with supply is that the feds have agreed to start letting all doses be used for the first dose. What they had been doing was only sending out half of what was available so that they could be assured there would be a second dose available for those who got the first. Apparently production is to the point that they trust there will be "more where that came from".
The whole shot and supply system is messed up, politicians making medical decisions.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on January 15, 2021, 01:44:29 PM
The whole shot and supply system is messed up, politicians making medical decisions.
Unfortunately it kind of has to be centrally coordinated by "someone". The vaccines will be arriving from different suppliers / factories, and then being send to multiple other front line agencies in multiple different states. This all has to be worked out so that the doses end up in the right places and can be transported and stored correctly so it's not wasted (or rendered useless by poor storage, but used anyway)
US medical system is pretty fragmented with multiple companies and agencies providing care. Potential for stuff ups is pretty great.
I wouldn't want the job :-\
Quote from: doc henderson on January 15, 2021, 11:49:21 AMIs your 80,000 the total population or the number of seniors.
That is just the seniors. My county has a population of just under 400,000 with seniors making up 19.9%
Just read this earlier today
QuoteThe Norwegian Medicines Agency announced in a press release (https://legemiddelverket.no/nyheter/covid-19-vaccination-associated-with-deaths-in-elderly-people-who-are-frail) that as of Thursday, the Norwegian health registry has received reports of 23 people who died shortly after receiving their first dose of the vaccine.
Norway warns frail patients over 80 of vaccine risks after deaths | TheHill (https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/534395-norway-warns-patients-over-80-of-vaccine-risks-after-deaths)
hopefully they will have ongoing improvements in your county. usually the health folks hold onto control, until it gets old and then loosen up. at age 80, just a hip fracture has a high mortality. choices. :)
PatD and I got our vaccinations this afternoon, "Moderna", so 28 days until the booster. We were at the tent drive through facility 45 minutes which included the 15 minute wait. Military personnel were handling the entire operation and it went like clockwork. I never knew when the needle stuck and actually asked if it was over??
Edit: I was re-reading the above and noticed that "spell check" had changed the vaccine name. I changed it back. My arm is a bit sore from the stick but we both lived through the night so I guess we are OK. :)
Quote from: Paul_H on January 15, 2021, 03:20:48 PM
Just read this earlier today
QuoteThe Norwegian Medicines Agency announced in a press release (https://legemiddelverket.no/nyheter/covid-19-vaccination-associated-with-deaths-in-elderly-people-who-are-frail) that as of Thursday, the Norwegian health registry has received reports of 23 people who died shortly after receiving their first dose of the vaccine.
Norway warns frail patients over 80 of vaccine risks after deaths | TheHill (https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/534395-norway-warns-patients-over-80-of-vaccine-risks-after-deaths)
But also in the article...
Quote"For those with the most severe frailty, even relatively mild vaccine side effects can have serious consequences," the Norwegian Institute of Public Health said, according to Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-15/norway-warns-of-vaccination-risks-for-sick-patients-over-80?utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_content=business&cmpid=socialflow-facebook-business&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR0Fgc2ypishxQatKz_S_L0atYO34Bif4v7iFyFjluSTdLcxCpI2YTN6Ot8). "For those who have a very short remaining life span anyway, the benefit of the vaccine may be marginal or irrelevant."
I think they are talking about people that are already at high risk of dying from even the Common Cold.
I guess the question here is do you vaccinate the really old and sick? I would suggest you still do because it protects the staff caring for them, and the other residents that might not be as frail. The people that died would almost certainly not have survived an actual Covid infection, and if they contracted it from a visitor or care worker, they could easily pass it on the others. The benefit to the individual patient "may be marginal", but the benefit to the rest of the facility may be much higher.
I just posted a story that popped up in several news agencies,I don't like to editorialize. I presume they are just as dead from the vaccine as if covid got them.
Definitely a tough call to make. We already know that a huge percentage of covid deaths are among nursing home residents. That won't stop without people getting vaccine. Pts are in and out every day, so they can't just close the doors and keep covid out. I would wager that more would die from covid if unvaccinated than will die from vaccination.
Quote from: Paul_H on January 15, 2021, 06:05:47 PM
I just posted a story that popped up in several news agencies,I don't like to editorialize. I presume they are just as dead from the vaccine as if covid got them.
Yeah, but you know some anti-vaxxer is going to pick up the story and run with it.
So just trying to put it in context, that they say about 400 people die in rest homes in Finland on any normal day, because they are old and sick, and it's 1/2 expected.
We know that there is possible side effects, up to "mild flu like symptoms". When people are that frail, mild flu could certainly be the last straw.
Sorta ironic that in most places seasonal flu has been almost non-existent over 2020. That would normally have taken a lot of those frail old folks out 6 months ago.... Maybe the 10% most frail should skip the vaccine, and rely on immunity of those around them getting the shots? But will it actually make a big difference?
QuoteYeah, but you know some anti-vaxxer is going to pick up the story and run with it.
People are going to draw their own conclusions and it's not up to me to control other's thoughts. Some have had severe reactions to the vaccine many have not. It's good to see all the data. :)
Because of my type of cancer, I've been told not to get the vaccine. The nurse practice'ner said that they don't have enough information to make a decision.
the side effects were fever and nausea and it "may have contributed". If you are so frail you cannot survive nausea and or fever, you will not likely survive covid. One of my former military docs, who is often deployed for a month or two in reserves, will be out in Feb. dong vaccination duty.
In a strange turn of events, I got my vaccine yesterday (Pfizer) and an appointment for our 2nd dose.
We work at a church on a reservation. The tribal government called us and told us to schedule our vaccinations. My wife called to schedule it yesterday morning and we got it the same day! It took us 1-1/2 hours. 2/3 of that time was because we are not standard Indian Health Services patients and had some paperwork to fill out.
IHS is run mostly by military Drs. (mostly U.S. Navy) so it was very efficient without bringing back memories of walking through a vaccination line in boot camp! :D :D :D
So far, we are the youngest, non-healthcare personnel that we know to get it. I have ZERO side effects--not even a sore arm! My wife's arm is sore but she's fine too.
We are using our experience and example to encourage our friends that might be leary of getting the vaccine to get it.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on January 06, 2021, 08:59:46 PM
Off topic, but we have one of these:
H2oral Irrigator Floss Do You Hate to Floss? are You not Wanting to Spend A Fortune On A Water Flosser
Amazon.com: H2oral Irrigator Floss Do You Hate to Floss? are You not Wanting to Spend A Fortune On A Water Flosser: Health & Personal Care (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004V4RUZ4/ref=cm_sw_r_sm_apa_fabc_KQM9FbHDW0A45)
This contraption us genius!
I drilled out the restrictor hole so I get more water flow to the shower head.
Put the water pick in the garage junk box.
No more mess and easier to use so it's used more.
Thanks Dan!
Good deal @azmtnman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29486) I'm happy for you. I had a headache yesterday which is now gone. My arm was pretty sore yesterday, but that is barely noticeable now. I'm just short of 48 hours out.
Happy to hear of so many unremarkable post vaccination symptoms. Wife and I are 1C tier, we might get the shot before spring. VA has been slow with the rollout.
@Old saw fixer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=47231) you ought to check again. You're probably in 1B being 72 years young. They may be starting 1B soon. My state has officially started 1B but we have no vaccine available in the county for 1B yet. I got lucky that mine came from a different county thru the hospital system that is our medical control.
Hay Doc have you seen a person go a week and a half or so doing ok, with it, then start a fever and low oxygen?
I appreciate you guys sharing any ailments, or more so, lack there of when it comes to side effects. I'm on the fence, and don't mean to sound bad, but am watching others. I don't get out that much, and when I do, it's on the land working alone; so my exposure is next to nothing almost always.
Quote from: Old saw fixer on January 16, 2021, 05:20:19 PM
Happy to hear of so many unremarkable post vaccination symptoms. Wife and I are 1C tier, we might get the shot before spring. VA has been slow with the rollout.
1b is 75 or over and by occupation, my wife gets on that list on Tues. I'm a 1c as well and at the other end of 58 from you, I'd like to hear when you get poked, curious if we are being left behind.
Little Sis emailed last night, my BIL has it.
Due to a stroke of sheer serendipitous luck, I was able to get the Moderna vaccine on Wednesday. There was a good bit of soreness in my arm for two days and for the first couple of days, I found myself bone tired at the end of the day to the point that I had to lay on the couch and rest. I was not as tired yesterday. Otherwise, no other issues.
Many states are different on the age for 1B. Missouri originally said 75 and then changed it to 65. It looks like Virginia may have done the same. According to Virginia Department of Health those 65 and over are in 1B.
https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/covid-19-vaccine/
We got our Moderna Friday and neither of us have had any symptoms of anything except upper arm soreness from either the stick or the vaccine. ??
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on January 17, 2021, 08:45:55 AM
Many states are different on the age for 1B. Missouri originally said 75 and then changed it to 65. It looks like Virginia may have done the same. According to Virginia Department of Health those 65 and over are in 1B.
https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/covid-19-vaccine/
Thanks for the info, firefighter ontheside! Our county (and most of the middle of the state) is in 1A phase however. We are eligible, when ever... A check of our health district website shows nothing re: phases or when we will get the vax.
"side effects" are good signs things are happening with your immune system. Prob. not the immediate soreness in the arm. @Magicman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011) and @WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370) , remember to not play slug bug on the way home from the clinic.! :) it was reported on the news (have not read the study) by a doc, that the consensus of the studies is that bandanas and gators although cool, are not effective. the best is the N95 mask, but a surgical pleated two loop mask and a 3 layer cloth homemade mask offer protection, and are more available. the key is they are used over the mouth and nose, and used consistently when unable to social distance. I use a filtered air device when I am in a room known or highly suspected to have covid, and need to be in their face.
You're welcome. Gotta keep checking with your health dept. This morning my wife asked me if I had checked on getting my parents on a list. I told her the health dept. had no way to sign up yet. Well, I checked again and it seems they put a form on their website 2 days ago. I signed up both of my parents to be notified when and where they could get it. Even though they are technically in same tier, my dad is older and has several issues that should get him close to the front of the line. Hoping it comes soon.
Doc, are you using PAPR, air purifying respirator that runs on battery?
yes. I have looked at it and wondered about the filter, as it moves lots of air, and not much room in there. I want one for my shop.
They are nice, especially when its hot out. We use them with the task force occasionally.
in SE PA I recall somethig that describes what we're getting - comes from WW II I believe - SNAFU.
They ( PA ) started phase 1 A vaccinations. Not as bad as NY ( where nobody can be out of turn with fines for violations from $ 100,000 - $ 1,000,000 - Yeowzebub ! )
But in PA no 1b nor 1c ( which is where I would fit without " other factors " ) . Trying the local hospitals, dr's, drugstores gives you a response - we're working on the plan and expect them to be ready spring or summer ( ? ? ? ? ? ) to begin signing people up .
After a few weeks I giess there were enough complaints that they " said they would accelerate ". In my county I heard in the evening that you could register on the county health web site . So I did immediately ( before waiting for the next business day ). I got a nice email reply - " don't call us - we'll call you " . And BTW - don't sign up a second or third time .
I went to the PA state web site for cv19 for info. For commoners it says check back " later " . There's a place for " providers " - those folks that want to give shots. I figured I 'd look there to see what needs to be done to give vaccinations. Now I thought iffen your a Dr or a hospital or a clinc you'd be authorized by virtue of being licensed to practice medicine in PA. Seems I could very well be wrong. Looks like they want everyone to fill out a bunch of forms - in fact lots of forms. Looks to me more complicated the the IRS Tax Code !
( could be to assure us the US of A is standing behind the vaccinations ? )
No wonder no one has a clue.
I like the story about NYC discovering smallpox in one person who came off a ship in 1947 . NYC vaccinated 6 million people in days - in 1947 . . . . . . ain't bureaucracy grand :-(
As to side effects
> people die every day due to many different causes
> guy saw his buddy eat a banana on Mon . His buddy died on Tues.
> guy saw his own Dr on Wed and said " Hey Doc - eating bananas on Mon kills you "
Best to treat others the way you should like to be treated .
Not sure when I'll be able to get the shot. Supply is tiny and I just seen where supply is even shorter since one of the outfits has to upgrade facilities to produce more vaccine. Plus rural Canada has to wait longer than urban areas. Some doctors are speaking out when health care providers on leave, and low risk settings like admins in urban centres are getting the shots ahead of rural front line health care workers. There has been no accountability and/or lack of communication and confusing messaging. I expect it will be a whole year before I see it.
Meanwhile, we are seeing regions here falling back into the red zone.
Got appts in late March, but not on the same day for wife and I.
If offered by my local pharmacy, Ill cancel and try for sooner
2 friends had theirs Sat. and Sun with no ill effects so far.
Urban Texas is as messed up as the rest of the Nation. Cities complain no vaccine, long lines, turned away when you show up for your appointment.
Rural Texas. A friend and his wife (told this before) signed up for the same day, she ended up with surgery on that day. Husband came back from hospital after dropping her off, and the pharmacy called, said you missed your appointment, said come on in.
Pharmacy called Friday and asked if his wife still wanted the shot, they had some extra. Obvious answer, but, I love small towns, we know each other, possibly to well.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on January 17, 2021, 12:59:59 PM
You're welcome. Gotta keep checking with your health dept. This morning my wife asked me if I had checked on getting my parents on a list. I told her the health dept. had no way to sign up yet. Well, I checked again and it seems they put a form on their website 2 days ago. I signed up both of my parents to be notified when and where they could get it. Even though they are technically in same tier, my dad is older and has several issues that should get him close to the front of the line. Hoping it comes soon.
Not with mine. They said they know nothing other than they are gathering a list of people who fit on 1b list with over 70 age or occupation.
BTW, there is no pandemic today as it's MLK Day. Nobody will answer the phone here near me. I tried as my wife got on their list and I thought I might need to check that I was on both the regional hospital list and the health dept. too.
That said, I'll say this again- In other KY area health districts the health departments are the ones actually having the vaccine and giving the shots. Sad that we have doctors (only in the larger urban county health departments) & nurses in all of our other area health departments going to waste, so to speak, during a time when it really matters?
I watched NFL FB games rather than make a 3+ hour RT to the nearest VA for a vaccine shot.
8)Go Chiefs! 8) And if you don't like FB, that's your problemo. ;D
Wait!!! there more... after writing the above post my wife called tot ell me she'd made a vaccine appointment for us both-as seniors plus her as a caregiver, for this Wednesday at our regional hospital mid a.m.. Seems that my DIL who is a grade school teacher in Knoxville, TN had called that hospital on her planning period as her Dad who lives there is 79 plus he doesn't use puters plus her Mom is Alzheimers person and under his supervision/care, doesn't drive or cook, etc.. DIL got him an appt. then texted my wife 75 miles away to tell her to call which she did and aha moment for vaccination. Not one word did wife or I get as we'd signed up for online. In my own county people are getting the short end of the stick, especially if there not online or aggressively seeking the magic shot.
I just called our county judge executive to point out to him that our health dept is seemingly out of the loop and the citizens lose out. In my wifes Mom's county they come to her home with the shot and her 92 year old uncle who doesn't drive got his shot at home from the health dept there. He told me that our regional hospital does have the "state contract" for the vaccine in their counties they serve, which coincide with our Gateway Health Districts Counties.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on January 18, 2021, 09:07:11 AM
Urban Texas is as messed up as the rest of the Nation. Cities complain no vaccine, long lines, turned away when you show up for your appointment.
Rural Texas. A friend and his wife (told this before) signed up for the same day, she ended up with surgery on that day. Husband came back from hospital after dropping her off, and the pharmacy called, said you missed your appointment, said come on in.
Pharmacy called Friday and asked if his wife still wanted the shot, they had some extra. Obvious answer, but, I love small towns, we know each other, possibly to well.
Nice story if it worked in my area. There is NO vaccine in my county.
Don't get me wrong, there is no vaccine in my county either. I had to go to a hospital a county away who had vaccine just for 1A folks who were invited. My parents have no indication that their shot is coming anytime soon. They are on a list of people who want it.
Got my first shot today. Get the second the 15th of next month. Didn't even feel the needle go in.
Funny. Some can give shots you don't feel and others never perfected the procedure.
And I sure never thought I'd hear a bunch of Paul Bunyan type's talking about a little ole needle thingy hurting them :D I self inject weekly and my technique is to slap myself where it goes in. On the cortisone knee shots I get every three months they either spray lightly some aerosol freeze-it stuff or swab on some ether(I think) and jab it all the way in.
Worst shot I ever had (not under anesthesia as was my hip injection during shoulder surgery) was the cortisone stabbed into my heel, talc bone area-it was a serious ouch compared to ones shoulder.
The badly missed, sideways, air injection at Ft lost in the woods became a minor cut and hurt some too.
Interestingly, the same hospital that already has me scheduled for a vaccination (and has 100% of my entire medical history on file ;D) emailed me yesterday to say they had vaccine again and to make an appt., then several hours later I got a recorded call with a number to call for an appointment. Maybe Joe will get this thing fixed... 8)
Georgia expanded 1A to everyone 65 and over. Including their caregivers. Can you say loophole big enough to drive a log truck through? Internet access and the ability to navigate the system seems to be the deciding factor.
Yesterday an acquaintance happened to see a FaceBook post announcing vaccinations would be available that day at the High School by appointment only. She just happened to be surfing the web at the moment, so snagged 3 appointments for 30 minutes later. Fortunately the High School is only 15 minutes away so off they went. Success.
When she got home feeling smug, she got a phone call to let her know about the death of another mutual acquaintance.
I think the down fall is at the state and local level. either no one in charge, or everyone in charge... all turns out the same. It is easy when there is enough vaccine.
I agree based on news and SOME of our guvs comments. Not to be political but his tendency is to blame the feds on lck of vaccine then releases dose numbers that clearly show that KY has vaccinated ~ 1/3 of their vaccine on hand. When I talked with our counties Judge Executive he was most concerned about two things:
1- that our health district of 5 counties (coincidentally the same 5 our regional hospital serves) has no idea of vaccine doses or delivery to our citizens
2- that no one is vaccinating seniors in our county who are home or bedridden other than the one nursing home which they didn't perform either. The hospital I speak of has an active home health program in their service area.
Meanwhile- as suggested above, those who are online or mobile are moving towards vaccination, albeit slowly as not enough doses came to my hospital so far.
In a rural county where there is zero public transportation, no radio stations and what barely resembles a newspaper that actually is mostly from another county and not a true source of much at all, it matters hugely that the vaccine is not here in this place.
My wife and I will travel the same 28 miles one way that we drove daily for several decades in our cushy car. This is Appalachia, and one of the poorest counties in the entire USA and many don't own a car, especially among seniors. Their are those here who use the "Medicab" service paid for under Medicaid but many don't have that option. There is not shortage of healthcare delivery here. That is the mission of the Catholic Sister, St Clair, who started our regional hospital and system.
Can people who have been vaccinated successfully still transmit the virus ?
Quote from: woodroe on January 19, 2021, 11:10:02 AM
Can people who have been vaccinated successfully still transmit the virus ?
Too early to tell for sure, not enough data, but the general consensus is you can still spread the virus, just don't make you sick. Subject to change as CDC collects more data.
Obviously can do so by practicing poor hygiene after vaccination.
What about the Oxford AstraZenica vaccine? It only requires regular refrigeration and is the old fashioned vaccine type. Two doses and no risk of getting or spreading the virus.
We could be done with masks and it's safer for old folks. Would also be easier on getting it into rural areas because of standard refrigeration.
Has this been approved in the USA?
Quote from: bodagocreek2 on January 19, 2021, 07:32:23 AM
Funny. Some can give shots you don't feel and others never perfected the procedure.
It's an art. Years ago I was new to EMS and driving the rig on a semi-serious call, we loaded and left and the Medic was in the back prepping an IV. the road was rolling and rough, which makes that work tricky, she warned me she was getting ready to do 'the stick' and I hollered back "just hold on 10 seconds and I'll have you on a flat road". I made the turn and told her to 'go ahead', she "too late, I'm done". ;D My tech later told me that she made the stick just as the ambulance was rolling into the turn, never missed a beat. :D
In later years I worked with a lot of Medics side by side in some messy stuff and you are correct, some get it, and some don't...ever. I had one medic that for 2 years would demand the rig be pulled over and stopped so she could get a line in. Every time. (She also had the horrible habit of pushing Narcan just as we pulled into the hospital bay, very disruptive.) I have seen lines put in by a medic laying on his belly under a vehicle in near total darkness while extrication saws were buzzing all around him.
This is why when I am in a hospital or clinical setting and I see a nurse, tech, or sometimes even a Doctor fighting to get a line placed after 4 bad sticks, I can do little but cringe and turn away when they start whining about how hard it is. They should try it in a rolling ambulance sometime. No, it's not easy, but practice and developed skills go a long way in any discipline.
Quote from: woodroe on January 19, 2021, 11:10:02 AM
Can people who have been vaccinated successfully still transmit the virus ?
Possibly, in the same way a door handle or elevator button can transfer the virus from one person to another. Basically surface contamination, just the surface is the persons body.
But they shouldn't become a walking virus dispenser like a person that's actually infected.
Quote from: doc henderson on January 19, 2021, 09:41:44 AM
I think the down fall is at the state and local level. either no one in charge, or everyone in charge... all turns out the same. It is easy when there is enough vaccine.
Exactly Doc, county judges and mayors (not the county I live in) tend to be in an on going disagreement. That and they change rules every other day.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on January 19, 2021, 01:12:56 PM
Quote from: bodagocreek2 on January 19, 2021, 07:32:23 AM
Funny. Some can give shots you don't feel and others never perfected the procedure.
It's an art. Years ago I was new to EMS and driving the rig on a semi-serious call, we loaded and left and the Medic was in the back prepping an IV. the road was rolling and rough, which makes that work tricky, she warned me she was getting ready to do 'the stick' and I hollered back "just hold on 10 seconds and I'll have you on a flat road". I made the turn and told her to 'go ahead', she "too late, I'm done". ;D My tech later told me that she made the stick just as the ambulance was rolling into the turn, never missed a beat. :D
In later years I worked with a lot of Medics side by side in some messy stuff and you are correct, some get it, and some don't...ever. I had one medic that for 2 years would demand the rig be pulled over and stopped so she could get a line in. Every time. (She also had the horrible habit of pushing Narcan just as we pulled into the hospital bay, very disruptive.) I have seen lines put in by a medic laying on his belly under a vehicle in near total darkness while extrication saws were buzzing all around him.
This is why when I am in a hospital or clinical setting and I see a nurse, tech, or sometimes even a Doctor fighting to get a line placed after 4 bad sticks, I can do little but cringe and turn away when they start whining about how hard it is. They should try it in a rolling ambulance sometime. No, it's not easy, but practice and developed skills go a long way in any discipline.
This reminded me of when I got Hemorrhoids surgery in 1990. They put me under a lower only anesthesia and I got to watch my first colon scope job same series of events on a color TV. When the young RN was trying to prep me by doing an IV into the top of my hand she gave up after a bunch of sticks then along came another then another then an old LPN (called Vocational Nurses in some states) came in took one quick shot, was done and walked back out.
That also reminds me of when I was a HS principal ~2001 and donating blood on the job. A young girl phlebotomist stuck me and after way too long I looked down and still hardly any blood at all. It was probably around my umpteenth gallon so I knew I was typically a fast donator. Turned out that the supervisor for the blood bank found that she'd gone on through the back side and into muscle.
The heel jab it took all that lady doc had to pull that one off! Generally I give little thought to injections as when I was a young boy in the early 50's I had a thyroid deficiency which was treated by pill plus two shots a week for two years. I've self- injected allergy serum for years once a week. First allergy doc I was forced to get them with him. This time around I became the very first person allowed as a senior retired KY teacher to self inject allergy serum. We get an Rx plan through the teacher retirement plan-they have two FT pharmacists on board in house. After many, many phone calls and discussion that turned into civilized arguments, I was finally approved. seemed stupid to me that they allow a diabetic to self inject but until I came along, not allegy serum. I keep an epi pen nearby but never used it.
I'm not what you'd call excited about covid vaccination tomorrow but certainly be glad to have it happen!
Quote from: Texas Ranger on January 19, 2021, 03:38:34 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on January 19, 2021, 09:41:44 AM
I think the down fall is at the state and local level. either no one in charge, or everyone in charge... all turns out the same. It is easy when there is enough vaccine.
Exactly Doc, county judges and mayors (not the county I live in) tend to be in an on going disagreement. That and they change rules every other day.
In Kentucky, it is noteworthy to say that not only is the state the #2 political state in the USA behind only NJ, a county here is something akin to a fiefdom! I've never seen anything like it, anywhere and I have been around. Not to step- on any toes, but people think of their birth county here as one would feel toward a country in the national sense. My county is badly that way! A guy I worked with from an adjoining county said to me once(knowing I was a Jayhawk) that people in mine "act as if they're in a state of siege their entire lives", referencing medieval times. He was correct as they do fear change. Some counties are worse than others and the urban ones are more so leaning toward a cityfied identity than whatever county it's in. We have 41 counties with a jailer but no jail. In many counties here a constable acts as if they are a real LEO. We had a state railroad commissioner until last couple years ago who was highly paid but had zero duties.
It gets far worse and is certainly affecting covid decisions. I'll stop or get kicked out of here.
kantuckid, When I moved to Texas from Missouri it was to Woodville, 6 years later the state moved me 37 miles over to Livingston, both in the Piney Woods. In Texas there are two questions folks ask when you are new and an unknown. First is: Where ya from? Second: What church ya go? Well, I did not say Missouri, my answer was, Woodville, made the transition a bit easier. The Church question answered, and usually got a look, the Methodists are second in population here. ;D
Where is my new machine 😂. The fact is many people are getting the virus everywhere. Haven't heard from my guy since after Christmas and I emailed him and got a email back of I'm sorry I've been out with the Coronavirus. He's doing better
Quote from: Texas Ranger on January 19, 2021, 04:43:14 PM
kantuckid, When I moved to Texas from Missouri it was to Woodville, 6 years later the state moved me 37 miles over to Livingston, both in the Piney Woods. In Texas there are two questions folks ask when you are new and an unknown. First is: Where ya from? Second: What church ya go? Well, I did not say Missouri, my answer was, Woodville, made the transition a bit easier. The Church question answered, and usually got a look, the Methodists are second in population here. ;D
On my Mexico motorcycle trips I would exit Mexico and head for Milford, FL where two of my GK's lived with their Marine Dad, our oldest son. That took me through the East Texas Piney Woods, certainly not the endless miles of buzzard country I endured for hours on end to reach Eagle Pass, TX my entry of choice.
The only part of Texas I really care much for is the Piney Woods part, though some others are interesting and can be scenic too.
That same son lives in Amarillo, TX now and a pilot. As we all know pilot jobs are damned lean pickings during covid so he remains there in spite of a great dislike for the pool table flat terrain that lays out for many miles around. Not a bad place, but not one he likes either.
I don't try to ever rub Kentucky people's face in where I'm from (that would not come out well?) but I also never hesitate to let them in on the fact that at heart, I am a Kansas boy. They easily understand my pride in where I grew up as they have that same sort of heartfelt notion about place as do I. People around here who don't know someone will ask where their from, my response always has gotten a better response than say NYC, or Chicago, not to point fingers. But they'll ask "how I got here" really often as they sort of get why people leave crime filled cities, but Kansas sort of throw's them a ringer, as it is. My standard answer is the simple truth, "in a blue, 1962 Apache10 Chevrolet PU truck :D My wife drove the car and me the truck the 725 miles east to the Land of Opportunity? Yeh sure...
::)Our local politicians ::) all got the covid vaccinations with our local First Responders during first shipment of vaccine to our immediate area from the same health dept that told my wife they know nothing at all about vaccine. They got it in their car not far from where I sit. None of them are the magic age or serve as a first responder or healthcare or caretaker. ???
All of "my people, that's both sides" are from either various parts of MO or the NW corner of AR.
@kantuckid (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7283) it's no longer land of opportunity, now it's "the natural state".
I'm just not sure what's natural about a clear cut. Or a field. Or parking lot. Or....
I should know, I've always lived here.
You're right though, parts of TX are fun, just never looked at other parts of it west of Dallas. Been to California twice, but the wife wanted to fly. But never drove. Been to OK twice, but in the search for prairie dogs. In TN 6 times but driving through to MS & FL. Even AL. That's about it for adult life.
In talking about my leaving behind the best blue collar job in town as a mechanic/millwright with a UAW/URW journeyman's card in my pocket at the Goodyear-Topeka Plant to head out for eastern KY and back to college at age 30, it was so far from "the land of opportunity", it's not even funny. I stole that one from NM actually, and even there the poverty is endemic, same as in my area of KY FWIW , so maybe it's a tongue in cheek statement many places, AR fits pretty well too. I grew up in town and have never looked back, it just wasn't my sort of place.
Other than a school or library, one tiny IGA, we have not much here for parking lots.
Since this is the Forestry Forum, I'll throw this tidbit out about opportunity in KY. Our legislature just reconvened and they are heavy into how much $$$ to throw at the horse industry which is touted to be a huge employer, etc.. I looked it up few days back and the wood industry is many, many times larger than horses(gambling included), booze and most any other aspect of the economy (coals still big but dying) here except autos & auto parts and WOOD, a 13 $ billion $ industry. It is barely ever mentioned in the news here.
Me thinks truckers should be in the vaccine lines pretty close to the front line up?
PA just opened the vaccines for 65+ and I already have appointments for wife and I on Feb 11th.
Minnesota opened up to age 65 plus along with teachers/daycare providers yesterday with a weekly first come Tuesdays at noon system via online reg and/or telephone. Site was crashed the first hour.... somehow my siblings and I still got luckly enough to get two of only 6000 available doses/apts for our parents. Took 4 hours of constant screen refreshes and a coordinated effort from multiple computer locations. Got one registered and confirmed just before the crash, a second as the site came back on line few hours later (was only open with rest of apts filled in minutes).
Huge relief knowing they get their first dose end of this week! 8)
Quote from: Andries on January 13, 2021, 07:39:03 PM
Pete, I only met you once, at Jake's place.
I'll bet you're good for another coupla decades.
Keep your stick on the ice and your eye on the puck. . . . you'll be good! 😆
spoken like a True Canadian! EH!
The big news lately other than DC stuff is who has the vaccine? Newspaper today is full of numbers either signed up or dosed or a place that needs more vaccine. We both got our #1 shots of Moderna yesterday and it was a very smooth operation indeed. Not even a sore arm, I went to work outside after lunch.
But nothing like the numbers in urban areas either with many lined up, we saw a few coming in, few leaving, only a trickle as it was.
Meanwhile, as some get vaccinated we still have 30,000 plus workers who cannot get their first unemployment check in KY. Two serious travesties that I see-one is covid deaths, the other is people who normally work yet cannot. Well, make that three, as the kids are not in school in most of my entire state.
I am a sports fiend but damned if I can understand kids playing HS sports yet no school in session? If you can do it right in the gym, you can do it right in the classroom?
Quote from: kantuckid on January 21, 2021, 07:28:35 AMyou can do it right in the classroom?
For the spring term, my son's high school is back to in-person sessions. Slightly shorter classes and the day runs from 7:40 to 1:00 (no lunch). The rules are masks all the time on campus except when outside AND eating a snack. Desks are separated but not enough space in a room to maintain 6'. IF someone tests positive, the entire class is out on quarantine for 14 days, the + person for 10 days (I guess they figure that person is well into their 14 days?). The school does the 1/4 system. That is, 4 classes per term (1/2 year) so enough class hours to qualify as a full year of study. So one positive student could (would) likely infect 4 classes. Guess that is better than the normal 6.
The students have to fill out an online questionnaire every morning and show the results to get through a single gate (3,000 students :-\). The front gate is right next to the back door of the cafeteria. Well, the first student came up + last week and a group of students were sent notes to quarantine. Yesterday, apparently those notes were ignored and said students were ushered into the cafeteria to await a ride home. My son said there were quite a few in there!
Quote from: kantuckid on January 21, 2021, 07:28:35 AM
The big news lately other than DC stuff is who has the vaccine? Newspaper today is full of numbers either signed up or dosed or a place that needs more vaccine. We both got our #1 shots of Moderna yesterday and it was a very smooth operation indeed. Not even a sore arm, I went to work outside after lunch.
But nothing like the numbers in urban areas either with many lined up, we saw a few coming in, few leaving, only a trickle as it was.
Meanwhile, as some get vaccinated we still have 30,000 plus workers who cannot get their first unemployment check in KY. Two serious travesties that I see-one is covid deaths, the other is people who normally work yet cannot. Well, make that three, as the kids are not in school in most of my entire state.
I am a sports fiend but damned if I can understand kids playing HS sports yet no school in session? If you can do it right in the gym, you can do it right in the classroom?
Continuing with our Whack A Mole approach from the beginning I'm hearing reports that folks with the #1 can't schedule #2. 50 states all doing their own thing. Here in Georgia we have 159 counties all doing things differently. The county I'm hunkered down in (Forsyth) has 2 churches, 3 grocery store chains and a pretty decent sized hospital all offering sign ups. Some Pfizer, some Moderna. Figure it's just a matter of time before the beer and bait up the street Daniels joins the action. Daniels is a local institution, featured in Zac Brown's video Toes. Zac is a local boy done good. Before he made it Junior Samples was our most famous resident.
Maybe it will get sorted out by the time the Astra Zeneca, rumored for April hits the market.
Not really surprising but apparently the Biden admin folks have found that there...is no federal plan. Which would explain a lot and is not surprising. So, they'll have to put together a plan first and foremost. Give it a week at best and a month at worst. The guy they have there is a famous fixer, Jeff Zients. So I assume what you will see in a month or two is a functional national strategy. Zients is a behind scenes fixer, not flashy, backroom, carry a big stick and a bag of money fixer. He should get it done but will take a few weeks. I assume by this leak of the Trump team leaving no vaccine rollout plan that he's already at work, classic kind of stuff. Fluff pieces in media and a knife in back of Trump team all true enough but ...he's left the knife.
When he took over that disastrous Healthcare.gov program (when the site crashed in first days and just didn't work) he had it back up and working just fine within 2 months. The preferential bidder that had the job (I cant remember if the bidder was a disabled vet or minority or minority disabled vet or what...they sucked) had a string of hatchet job pieces and carefully fed information and while it was all true what nobody talked about was Zients bringing in a swat team of real tech experts. Even months later you'd only hear about the tech experts and very very few knew that Zients had organized the reboot until it was a well functioning system several years later.
So expect that sort of thing. Someone has screwed up, Zients is going to stick a knife in them and expect to see more hit pieces come out in the media. At the same time expect to see something actually happen and all of a sudden there will be a coherent vaccine policy and others will mostly get credit.
Quote from: nativewolf on January 21, 2021, 11:35:56 AM
and all of a sudden there will be a coherent vaccine policy and others will mostly get credit.
One of our local heroes in Georgia once said "there is no limit what a man can do, where he can go or what he can accomplish if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." Robert Woodruff.
Mr Woodruff was a wise one.
Quote from: nativewolf on January 21, 2021, 12:48:12 PM
Mr Woodruff was a wise one.
A great leader and man of vision. He led the nation to victory during the Cola Wars. Bourbon and coke could have easily become Rum and Pepsi.
Quote from: Claybraker on January 21, 2021, 10:37:59 AM
Quote from: kantuckid on January 21, 2021, 07:28:35 AM
The big news lately other than DC stuff is who has the vaccine? Newspaper today is full of numbers either signed up or dosed or a place that needs more vaccine. We both got our #1 shots of Moderna yesterday and it was a very smooth operation indeed. Not even a sore arm, I went to work outside after lunch.
But nothing like the numbers in urban areas either with many lined up, we saw a few coming in, few leaving, only a trickle as it was.
Meanwhile, as some get vaccinated we still have 30,000 plus workers who cannot get their first unemployment check in KY. Two serious travesties that I see-one is covid deaths, the other is people who normally work yet cannot. Well, make that three, as the kids are not in school in most of my entire state.
I am a sports fiend but damned if I can understand kids playing HS sports yet no school in session? If you can do it right in the gym, you can do it right in the classroom?
Continuing with our Whack A Mole approach from the beginning I'm hearing reports that folks with the #1 can't schedule #2. 50 states all doing their own thing. Here in Georgia we have 159 counties all doing things differently. The county I'm hunkered down in (Forsyth) has 2 churches, 3 grocery store chains and a pretty decent sized hospital all offering sign ups. Some Pfizer, some Moderna. Figure it's just a matter of time before the beer and bait up the street Daniels joins the action. Daniels is a local institution, featured in Zac Brown's video Toes. Zac is a local boy done good. Before he made it Junior Samples was our most famous resident.
Maybe it will get sorted out by the time the Astra Zeneca, rumored for April hits the market.
FWIW, when our AL son married his AL bride a few years back, he was already living in Newnan, GA-worked for a power comp.. They got married at a nice gardenish rural outdoor venue (I think Minnie Pearl owned it once) nearby. I went to Zac's restaurant in whatever little GA town it's in for the wedding food. I think it's where they film that weirdo movie?
After spending a half hour with my Co judge executive telling him what the health dept in my MIL's county was providing to seniors in particular, he was very interested in why ours has done nearly zilch, or so it seemed? The next day his daily FB County covid update had the same old crap as to: how many positives in the county, how many recovered, what color of covid alert, and the phone number for the health dept that does zero and told us they didn't know anything. Meanwhile, as I said above, we and many who are proactive and have the web, etcv., are already vaccinated or on the list. Why he doesn't at the very least post the hospitals dedicated covid vaccination line is beyond me! He's actually a very sharp guy, likeable and a retired state cop who I know but seems not to be acting towards being the best of information sources. Our health dept gets it's funds thropugh the property taxes that his fiscal court manages.
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) so you voted for biden. The states get the vaccine from the feds, and then to the counties. many states of a certain color refused to work with another administration. can you say politics!!! There would be nothing (vaccine) to organize if not for someone else. He (biden) says he inherited a mess, and will "fix it" but basically he will take all the credit. lets keep the politics out of it. this will start a mess that will never end as many think Trump deserves lots of credit. it stops here. Thanks.
when there is enough vaccine for everyone, it will be easy. open it up, and let everyone get a vaccine that wants one.
nativewolf please stay away from the political discussion so that this is not moved to the restricted board
Thanks
Ron
I've been called in on the case because I am the Forestry Forum politics vaccine.
I see 3 choices here, and a 4rth for me if y'all don't pick one of the 3 other options. The first, and most logical is KNOCK OFF THE POLITICAL TALK IN THIS TOPIC. Options 2 and 3, not near as favorable and 4, well, don't do it.
Carry on Doc.
thank you Sir. @Jeff (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1)
Yes, lots of good, and very important information is passed around in this thread!
Please help it to stay here!
thanks jeff and doc
My wife had a zoom call for covid 19 immunization training. She is a Wal-Mart pharmacist, and they will begin giving them when they receive a supply.
The last post on this topic was removed and the poster lost his posting privileges for 5 1 days. I aint kidding. Knock off the politics in this topic or anywhere else not allowed.
Telling me how you agree with a political discussion ban in this topic and at the same time make a political post. Mistake no matter the intent.
That's good news Doc. The more places that will have it, will sure help folks get it when they want. I feel like my parents are so close to getting it. The county hospital has now started making appointments for county residents who are in 1B. My mom's friend said she registered and was called with an appointment time the next day. There are other avenues that are close. It now seems like a race to see who will be the first place to offer it to them. Can't wait for dad and I to be around each other without masks. I haven't gone fishing with him in over a year. We haven't worked around the mill together without masks in 6 months or more. Of course wearing a mask while sawing is a good idea either way, but it would sure be nice to take the mask off while we are moving wood, etc. We will wear the masks though until dad is about a week past his second dose.
They are just now starting to clamp down on "tourist vaxxing" down here.
Florida's Surgeon General: Prioritize Floridians for Vaccine (https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2021/01/22/florida-s-surgeon-general--prioritize-floridians-for-vaccines-in-state)
Quote from: Raider Bill on January 22, 2021, 12:14:39 PM
They are just now starting to clamp down on "tourist vaxxing" down here.
Florida's Surgeon General: Prioritize Floridians for Vaccine (https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2021/01/22/florida-s-surgeon-general--prioritize-floridians-for-vaccines-in-state)
And so they should and then CHARGE every Canadian that gets vaccinated down there DOUBLE the full cost of the vaccine to to help cover cost for less fortunate people in the region. They are not even supposed to be down there at all.
Some MPs are pushing for heavy fines on return to Canada in the spring and I hope they do it at about $10,000 per person. IDIOTS!!
Florida should arrest them and extradite them after they charge them criminally so they can't ever cross the border again in my opinion. But that would cost alot of money and waste a lot of court time I am afraid.
In the news. Firefighters in Omaha NE that got vaccinated had severe enough side effects that they had to call in sick for a day or longer
Sadly, I think my wife's aunt and uncle were down in Florida and got vaccinated this week. Definitely should not have gotten in line in front of Floridians who qualified, maybe those sneaky Canadians though. Shouldn't be delaying the state in moving on to the next phase of vaccinations.
Mom was disappointed they did not get a call today. Maybe tomorrow.
I've known a few firefighters who would use any excuse to get out of working.
Well, I see and understand how folks are doing what they can to find the shot where they can. I get it and lacking any coherent system of rules and regulation, I don't blame them. People have an urge to survive and this is likely how each individual sees it. As I said, I get it, can't blame them. I am surprised that so many of these stories seem to come out of Florida though. They seem to have a pretty good supply. My state distributes based on the population in that county, but the issue, as has been noted here in so many states and counties around the country is that each county is either very good, or not so good at distribution. My county has setup 2 centers at each end of the county that can distribute 20,000 inoculations a week and they have the staff on hand to do that. But they are allocated only 1,200 doses a week, and when the delivery shows up, there are only 900. They have staff to run 6 days per week, so they can ramp up and they wind up shutting the centers for 4 days because they have no vaccine.
I am over 65, my wife (bless her heart) is over 70, but we can wait. I want to know all the 1A folks are taken care of FIRST (which they are not at this crawling pace). I know there are big problems, we all have to stay calm and let the process get worked out, it will happen. Let's get the important folks taken care of first, then move on. We will have this down as a routine soon enough.
The province of Nova Scotia has made more information available on where Covid 19 cases were and are, instead of just 4 regions they have made the information available by health region.
In my area that would include 3 counties (about 80 miles in each direction from me) there has only been 1 known case in my health region. It was a collage student that arrived and didn't think he had to abide to the 14 day isolation rule and ended up testing positive. (the collage is 40 miles from me) He was expelled from the university and sent back to where he came from after he completed the isolation.
Sometime it is nice to be at the end of nowhere.
Quote from: Walnut Beast on January 22, 2021, 07:05:26 PM
In the news. Firefighters in Omaha NE that got vaccinated had severe enough side effects that they had to call in sick for a day or longer
Thanks for posting, Do you have a link, or know which vaccine they took/got? I heard about some nurses in Europe getting sick from it, but then not; lots of questionable news out there.
Each manufacturer is producing their own unique version, along with specific boosters. Has anyone heard anything like this? Do they give you a choice of which manufacturer?
There is no single 'vaccine', but multiple competitors.... It almost feels like a Ford, meets Dodge, meets Chevy, and anymore gotta throw in the rice burner, so meets Toyota, lol.
I'm really on the fence, and am looking for information that covers the actual differences; I guess at some point, we'll know which one works best, which one doesn't, and perhaps any that are no good, and for who(all).
'Hope and joy my common side effects,' Doctor shares symptoms of second dose of COVID-19 vaccine (https://www.ketv.com/article/hope-and-joy-my-common-side-effects-doctor-shares-symptoms-of-second-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine/35294743#)
sounds like the usual side effects of any good vaccine. your immune system reacts as though you have the virus, and you have fever, muscle aches, fatigue, headache. most of those were out a day or two. most first responder groups have a rule that if you are not 100%, you do not come to work. one said she felt ill, but it was better than getting the virus. serious side effect or allergic reactions put you on a ventilator and in ICU for a week, by a doctors definition. these sound par for the course.
The chances of a bad outcome from the vaccine is on the order of 1 in the many tens of thousands. The chances of a bad outcome from Covid is in the range of 1 in the low hundreds, you don't have to take off your mittens to do that kind of cyphering. One more reason, I heard on the way home today, one of the new UK variants is more lethal.
Quote from: Walnut Beast on January 12, 2021, 06:57:40 PM
That not wanting to get vaccinated like me. Isn't going to last. I think over time you will be required to show that card to do or get into many places you need to go
It's already starting. Some Airlines are requiring a digital verification of your vaccine from your I phone
Iowa just opened up the vaccine to 65 and older. My wife and I will get it at some point. But being retired we can relatively easily limit our exposure. So we will wait until the people who truly need to be in line, (first responders, health care workers, teachers, etc) are taken care of before we get it.
Doug in SW IA
My aunt is in a private care home and she is getting the vaccine on Monday. My cousin had to go into the home to sign papers to go ahead.
I will just say I had a nice PM exchange with @nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) . his intent was proper to lend some context, as he has personal knowledge of history and politics. however, we are also trying to keep this thread just about the facts and not politics as best we can. he understands that. I have been sent to the woodshed a few times in the past. Thanks for the conversation NW.
You bunch of ol woodshedders. Maybe we need to make some t shirts or something for those of you that have been to "the hole"😂😂
I've tried to sneak a peek in there following a post that was sent there and got booted out. Does that count?
Quote from: dougtrr2 on January 23, 2021, 08:00:31 AM
Iowa just opened up the vaccine to 65 and older. My wife and I will get it at some point. But being retired we can relatively easily limit our exposure. So we will wait until the people who truly need to be in line, (first responders, health care workers, teachers, etc) are taken care of before we get it.
Doug in SW IA
I totally agree. I wish more stores would make more flexible hours for older and disabled people to shop before everybody else gets in the store
Quote from: doc henderson on January 23, 2021, 02:39:03 PM
I will just say I had a nice PM exchange with @nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) . his intent was proper to lend some context, as he has personal knowledge of history and politics. however, we are also trying to keep this thread just about the facts and not politics as best we can. he understands that. I have been sent to the woodshed a few times in the past. Thanks for the conversation NW.
Oh no worries, thanks for the note. You've done a huge service providing details on the medical side of things and I (and I am sure all others) greatly appreciate it. I'm also sure we are all hoping for the point where this thread is history. In this time I think it is important to focus on the commonality of our experiences and goals. They have much more in common than any differences. I'm not saying that well am I? What connects us all is much deeper than what separates us so lets (society) pay a bit more attention to what connects us.
Here is a great fact, my mom got her first shot yesterday. She's an hour south of Don. Dad gets this week.
Had our covid meeting this am. reports are cases are down, but vents are back up.. some are 30 days out from testing +. their have been vaccine administration errors all over the country, wrong dilution, wrong volumes, given to children. lot of folks giving it that normally do not give vaccines. the pharmacist asked someone to bring her a package insert to show us. it was the size of a newspaper. anything on the paper has to be FDA approved. since the vaccines are not yet FDA approved, but being used under a drug under investigation. so no name on the box or insert, just a number on the box, and here is the front and back side of the package insert with all the instructions and side effects. It is about 2 x 4 feet unwrapped, but I included a beer can for scale. smiley_beertoast
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/F2C182B2-1899-46D7-B41C-F40A6F3BE4FC.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1611625497)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/13A05559-B56F-4347-A068-78622A3B85E7.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1611625493)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/EC774C10-A0C1-497D-BCA6-4B6D3BE568D8.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1611625492)
so you better know the number, to know which vaccine you are giving. :)
maybe the government was responding to the TP shortage. :) this came in the box, with the vaccine. nothing can go on the paper until full vetted by the FDA
Better drink a few more beers 👍
Bit nervous here in NZ, another case has slipped through the quarantine, and tested + 10 days later... So had gone home and got on with life as usual.
They have tested 15 of her "close contacts", family etc that are most likely to have been infected, and they all came back clear so far. So hopefully with the warm weather we are having it hasn't actually spread.
Best part of Summer is usually Feb, no one wants to go back to a lockdown now!!! The case is in Northland, the province Nth of Auckland City, so here's hoping any lockdown (if needed) will only be that province
Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-09/pfizer-moderna-mrna-vaccines-could-vanquish-covid-today-cancer-tomorrow)
WARNING - FEEL GOOD STORY it is a bloomberg news story on the development of the vaccines.
I thought I'd post this today, a bit of hopeful news regarding the fundamental breakthrough of the German vaccine that Phizer is marketing in the US and the Moderna vaccine that was developed in the US. I just wasn't really aware of how big a breakthrough it was and is- it all started with:
It all started with a Hungarian IMMIGRANT to the US in the 1980s- someone who fled communism to study science in the USA that is incredibly expensive. This sort of scientific research takes decades to bear fruit and her work is the poster child of the pain and expense. Not only did this scientist go on to do the fundamental work that led to these vaccines (this is 1990-funding would have come from national academy of science, etc- just so everyone knows here these are grants given for deep important research on a variety of fields- your tax payer dollars paid for this research 30 years ago! so congratulations on funding science that makes a difference!).
Katalin Kariko — there is a story worth reading about. Flees failed communist state, sticks through success and failure, raises 2 time olympic gold medalist -her only daughter, sees university fail to appreciate her breakthrough and license it to others, then finally gets recognition for her work and will get the Nobel Prize. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalin_Karik%C3%B3
The other thing to make clear here is that BioNTech (marketed by Pfizer) and Moderna did not pay for or do any of this research. They licensed it only a decade after the publication of the research and after the scientist stuck with it, made the discoveries, and then proved the worth in future work. 20 years afterwards before they even tried to license it.
Anyway I wanted to share this with everyone, the story behind the vaccine is one that upholds the value of the USA's commitment to deep scientific research, the tax payer funding that supports that research, and also upholds the value of a free society committed to the aggressive outward pursuit of liberty and freedom for everyone, everywhere. There was a reason a Hungarian scientist fled to the US instead of to France. Sometimes a few FF posters like to complain about taxes. Those tax dollars we all paid in the 1990s, 80s, 70s, 60s, 50s allowed this remarkable person to come to the US and do the research that will enable life to move on. One day this will make a great movie. Oftentimes your govt tax payments are doing miraculous things or supporting good simple work. Occasionally they fund the incredible.
Wife and I have appointment for first dose of Moderna vax at PCP center tomorrow (27th). We'll see how it goes...
I get my shot on March 11 at 4.20 pm 8)
I get my vaccine March 30 at 8:00 am
8)
Vaccines at the VA info :
COVID-19 vaccines at VA | Veterans Affairs (https://www.va.gov/health-care/covid-19-vaccine/)
I just got my one week reminder for my second dose. 8) I think everyone from my FD who wanted it has gotten their first dose. 3 from my shift got it today. I think we are at 9 out of 10 for B shift so that's a good sign.
Mom and dad have appointments for February 8 to get their first shot. I had hoped for sooner, but that's less than 2 weeks away so I can't complain too much. Sounds like my cousin's wife who works for a local hospital system got them their appointments. They are both included in the current phase for MO.
I have a full time firefighter/emt working part time.
He told me some are getting sick for a day or two when they get the second dose of the vaccine.
We aren't hearing about that on tv.
I have heard many reports of worse side effects after second dose. As Doc said, side effects as long as they are not severe, are a good sign. It means the vaccine is working, causing the body to have an immune response.
yes, that makes sense as it builds on the immune response of the first dose. It is a good sign, and the side effects still are considered mild, not life threatening. the few reported serious outcomes after a shot, are being investigated to see if the vaccine caused, contributed, or was a coincidence.
I'm not worried being a little sick is better than the alternative.
I'm a poster boy for having health problems that make getting the virus with the outcome not so good.
Looks like we should get ours in the beginning of March. I am getting a little worried after reading about how NY is giving out the shots. Apparently they may have gotten 3x more of one then the other and are dispensing them all. But the next batch may be equal quantities of both Pfizer and Moderna so for the second shots some may have to get a different version to be within the date range. I thought they were supposed to hold quantities for follow up shots. There don't seem to be any trials showing this will work.
It is too new, but CDC is liberating some rules. the problem is that reserving a second dose, was part of why only about half the shots dispensed have been administered. I know the time between doses and brands have been loosened up. The more rules about dispensing, and threatening million dollar fines, make everyone go slow. things will get more geared up soon hopefully.
Wife and I got the first dose over with, no pain from the injection, yearly flu shot is worse. My 64 year old brother has the 'rona virus, got it from his girlfriend. Sheesh! Only has minor symptoms so far We hope he does well.
I have a helper home sick.
Waiting on a covid test results.
I hope for him as well as I it's negative. He goes more places than i.
I have stayed home since this thing started.
We were told by the nurse that gave us the shot that we needed to wear a mask until 2 weeks after we got our 2nd shot. After that, we could quit wearing a mask. I HOPE THIS IS TRUE!!!!!
What say our Drs.? @doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) , @Ianab (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=460) I want you to share your knowledge/experience/common sense more so than medical protocol. What do you think the general consensus (in the medical community)is going to be?
Quote from: azmtnman on January 27, 2021, 05:15:58 PMAfter that, we could quit wearing a mask. I HOPE THIS IS TRUE!!!!!
Best immunity should be by 2 weeks after the 2nd shot. At that point you should be very unlikely to catch, and therefor pass on, the virus. So wearing a mask would be pretty much pointless. Same is probably true for someone that's had the virus and fully recovered.
But until the vaccine reaches most of the population, mask mandates might stay in place in some situations. If 1/2 the people on the bus haven't been vaccinated, they are still at risk, and it's easier to just say "Everyone mask up regardless". Unless you are wearing your "I've had my shots" T-Shirt there is no way to tell that you are probably virus free. Remember the mask mostly protects the people around the wearer, not the person wearing the mask. I'd probably still wear one if in a crowd of strangers, just to stop them worrying. With family / friends / workmates that know you are vaccinated, not much point.
There is also that small chance that the vaccine won't work on you, but that's pretty remote.
I will probably keep wearing one in stores, etc. just to avoid problems. It's just not that big of a deal to wear a mask and it makes others feel safer.
In the study, pfizer and moderna vaccines were 95% effective. They don't totally understand how much someone who has been vaccinated is likely to still spread some virus if they are infected. The vaccine, is not a shield that repels the virus. It gives causes you to have antibodies that will fight off the infection. It can't fight the infection until you're infected. While there are still many sick people around they are saying everyone should continue to wear masks, especially indoors where ventilation is not as good. Hopefully enough folks will get vaccinated and at some point the numbers are so low that the recommendation will change.
The Asian countries have been wearing masks for years, long before covid reared it's head. Wearing one is just a matter of putting your mind to it and it will help with reduction of other airborne infections.
all that has been said is most likely true. the vaccine makes it less likely that you will get as sick if you get exposed. there are a few folks, that have gotten it twice. we will still wear them at work, as the severity of the infection can be proportional to the viral load/dose of exposure. Your body has memory cells, and can respond and stop the virus before you get as sick, but we do not know how contagious you might be in the beginning of the illness. and in fact, you may be asymptomatic, and be able to spread it. we just do not know.
My helpers test came in negative 8)
I hope I can make it clean till I get the vaccine.
Grandson was exposed in school last Wednesday and was sent home from school friday (when the school health unit got results) along with 11 other kids that were in the class. The kid was asymptomatic but his mom, a nurse, was concerned cause he didn't want to eat anything cause it all "tasted yucky". She got him tested immediately same evening and kept him out of school BUT he'd been in class the one day before his mom picked up on it and kept him home and got him tested. He and Jax are pretty good buds so I am sure that was a factor. Jax was very concerned when they found out he had Covid.
Jax was showing symptoms Monday afternoon and was quite sick with a 103° fever through the night. By midday fever was down to 100° and hes feeling pretty good now but says "I gets tired too fast". He got his test yesterday afternoon should see results later today.
It's kinda scary because you never know how hard its gona slam a person. We wait and pray! So far all seems good. Taste, smell and fever have been his most obvious symptoms so far.
I hope he recovers quickly Bandit and that his test is negative.
Good deal for your helper Bruno. Now is the time to double down on being careful since we are so close to everyone getting vaccine. If everyone would do that, numbers would go down.
I just did a phone interview for St Louis Radio station KMOX about being a firefighter and having gotten the vaccine. They asked how I was able to get it already and how my symptoms were. Asked about which vaccine I got and asked about symptoms from second dose. I told him that a lot have had worse symptoms from second dose. He asked if I knew why that was and so I quoted my Doc from Kansas about the immune system being primed from the first dose. It was recorded and I guess will be on the air tomorrow and saturday.
this is why it is good to share good information here, and get it to the folks. good job FF. God bless us all!
My wife and I just got signed up. No idea how long before we get vaccinated or which location we will get assigned to. The state is currently registering 65 and older and high risk. They have an on line and a phone in registration procedure which is not too complicated. Now we will see how long it takes to actually get vaccinated.
Our daughter works at a Children's Hospital in Charlotte NC and got her second dose last week. She did not mention any issues with either dose.
From what I'm seeing in the news lately, if you had the shots and get immunity, that does not mean you aren't a carrier. Been seeing folks test positive for the virus since their vaccination and not getting sick themselves. Several cases. So if gramma has not had the shots and you have, don't go thinking you can't spread it. It's not that simple.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-do-coronavirus-variants-mean-your-masks-n1255518
"A mask "is a physical covering to prevent droplets (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-reverses-again-now-says-covid-19-sometimes-airborne-n1242167)," Fauci said Monday on NBC's "TODAY" show. "So, if you have a physical covering with one layer, you put another layer on, it just makes common sense that it likely would be more effective.""
""If you put three or four masks on, it's going to filter better because it's more layers of cloth," said Dr. Scott Segal, chair of anesthesiology at Wake Forest Baptist Health in Winston-Salem, North Carolina."
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-do-coronavirus-variants-mean-your-masks-n1255518
I posted this, as I've seen a few folks talking about wearing 3 masks; one was on an evening news program. Fauci is now stating that wearing 2 is smart.
Also, I'm reading that with the variants emerging, they're leaning towards continued vaccines regularly due to different strains.
I think there will be diminishing returns. as has been stated/argued, some of the air shoots out the side of the mask. it at least deflects the projected droplets and airborne stuff so it cannot travel as far. like a bullet that hits something, and is deformed and tumbles to the ground. as you increase the thickness, you increase the resistance to air moving through the layers and more will go out the side, especially at high velocity, like a cough. If you made an airtight seal, that would be great, but now your chest has to work harder to move the air to breath. The question is are we trying to protect ourselves, or those around us, and the answer is hopefully both. not just mask wearing (hit and miss across the country) but all mitigation like sanitizing and socially distancing, has dropped the flu rate and other respiratory illnesses. that is a blessing in and of itself, but also seems that there is a correlation with increased precautions (i.e. they work). the best protection is a helmet that seals well, and filters the air like a PAPR. even that fails if you contaminate your hands taking stuff off, and then touch a mucus membrane. I hope the current vaccine will remain effective in the near future. It is reported that tweaking it to cover variants will be easy, once we figure out if there is resistance. If we contain 99% of the virus with a vaccine, it selects for the ones that are not taken out by the conferred immunity, and then you spread a new virus. thus is nature. natural selection and survival of the fittest. God bless us all.
I saw a blurb of info on the news that so much bleaching and sanitizing of hands and surfaces may hinder development of antibodies to other "normal" germs and such. I think that pertains to young toddlers and babies.
Yes, overdoing it may reduce the other germs we're being exposed to. I still get dirty and wash the same way I always did when I'm home and working outside. I'm not too worried that I'm suppressing my immune system.
Plexiglass doesn't help and hinders air flow, which does help.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 28, 2021, 05:19:48 PM
From what I'm seeing in the news lately, if you had the shots and get immunity, that does not mean you aren't a carrier. Been seeing folks test positive for the virus since their vaccination and not getting sick themselves. Several cases. So if gramma has not had the shots and you have, don't go thinking you can't spread it. It's not that simple.
I think one outcome of the vaccine is that if you are in the 5% that dont get full immunity, there is still a good chance you will only have a mild case, or maybe no symptoms at all, which can occur even without the vaccine. So yes there is a small risk you could be infectious. But the number of virus particles in your body, and hence the number you are spreading should be a lot less. So you are less likely to pass it on.
The vaccine doesn't need to be 100% effective, and 100 % wont need to have it. 90 % effective & 90% of the population taking it should be "good enough".
NZ has had a couple more cases get through the border isolation, but they dont seem to have passed it on. Probably just good luck and Summer weather?
It's not about the 5 % at all. It's about being a carrier even if your immune. Going uncovered, sucking it into your airways, it being able to live a certain duration and you expelling it before it expires.
Our second stick of Moderna is scheduled for February 16th.
that is pretty fast. My first dose was on the first day it was available in our town and that was Dec. 16th. NYC has almost no vaccine appointments available.
My times were Jan 11 and Feb 8, got lucky when a friend called and said a signup had started at a local pharmacy towards the end of Dec. Texas has really screwed up system for sign up and shots.
Weekly updates by Dr. Osterholm @ Centre of Infectious Disease Research and Policy
COVID-19 Podcasts and Webinars | CIDRAP (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars)
If anyone wants to waste 5 minutes of their life listening to me be interviewed. Skip to about minute 53.
The Bo Matthews Show, January 29th | KMOX-AM (https://kmoxam.prd-radio-drupal.com/media/audio-channel/the-bo-matthews-show-january-29th?fbclid=IwAR06IxTJ1hopK-lm93MdJ053mT381dwFIzzwel8CO-Ikke-vH8dBmfvuoi8)
I listened and thanks for the shout out! it starts at 35 minutes, and you did a great job and had good responses.
We talked to our daughter this afternoon. She had her second (Phizer) C-19 vaccine shot Monday. Had some body ache and low grade fever the next day or two then Wednesday night got worse and finally Thursday she went to the urgent care clinic for EKG and CT. Her heart rate was up some and they checked for a clot and none there. She is severely allergic to shellfish (Iodine) and had bad reactions to that before requiring ventilator and epi back 25 years ago. She had been on some antibody tests before ever getting vaccinated and they said her antibody for C-19 was 80% the day she got her second dose. She said most folks are around 50% so they assume that was part of the reaction. She said if first dose gave her that much reaction that the actual virus would have been even worse so she still says she is very glad to have gotten it. Her reaction did not match any known cases so she agreed for them to send her results to Phizer. She did have some heart rhythm issues with her first pregnancy about ago. Did not notice any with second who will be 2 next month. All seems well now and she is still a strong advocate for the vaccine.
Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on January 28, 2021, 01:14:12 PM
Grandson was exposed in school last Wednesday and was sent home from school friday (when the school health unit got results) along with 11 other kids that were in the class. The kid was asymptomatic but his mom, a nurse, was concerned cause he didn't want to eat anything cause it all "tasted yucky". She got him tested immediately same evening and kept him out of school BUT he'd been in class the one day before his mom picked up on it and kept him home and got him tested. He and Jax are pretty good buds so I am sure that was a factor. Jax was very concerned when they found out he had Covid.
Jax was showing symptoms Monday afternoon and was quite sick with a 103° fever through the night. By midday fever was down to 100° and hes feeling pretty good now but says "I gets tired too fast". He got his test yesterday afternoon should see results later today.
It's kinda scary because you never know how hard its gona slam a person. We wait and pray! So far all seems good. Taste, smell and fever have been his most obvious symptoms so far.
Test results landed yesterday just after lunch and ALL the kids were NEG! 4 had a fairly transmissible cold by the testing so health unit recommended 14 days isolation for the whole class.
Today the U.S. has surpassed 26 million cases.
8% of the country, but I am sure many cases have gone undiagnosed, and therefore uncounted.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 30, 2021, 07:04:32 AM
It's not about the 5 % at all. It's about being a carrier even if your immune. Going uncovered, sucking it into your airways, it being able to live a certain duration and you expelling it before it expires.
It's possible that could occur.
I just think the odds of being infected that way are REALLY slim.
When someone has a full on infection they will be coughing up millions of virus particles, and there is a good chance people nearby will catch the virus. The less viruses you breathe out, the less chance there is of those people being infected.
It's sorta the same as masks. They don't completely prevent transmission, they just make it maybe 50% less likely, by intercepting some of those virus particles. So by my reasoning, if you are only spraying out 1% as many viruses, then you are 100X less likely to infect others? Of course if you wear a mask, that might make it 200X less likely?
Still not impossible, but unlikely. The things is the virus control doesn't need to be 100% bullet proof. If just needs to get the R (reproduction) ratio down below one. Without a vaccine, that's hard. You have to use ALL the other control methods. Add a 90% effective vaccine (and some basic control measures) and it becomes pretty easy.
We should get to a point soon, where enough people have had the vaccine to have an effect. Then you might have R = 0.5. At that stage your 1,000 cases create only 500 new ones, then 250 the next round etc. The lower you get the R value, the faster the pandemic dies out.
Yes, Ian, it will be interesting to watch numbers on new infections as more and more get vaccinated. As you say, vaccine isn't the only thing that can cause the numbers to drop. Continued mask wearing and other proven measures to reduce spread is key to stopping this thing sooner.
Avoid preventive pain relievers before getting a COVID vaccine: Experts - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/avoid-preventive-pain-relievers-covid-vaccine-experts/story?id=75491965&cid=social_fb_abcn)
"Vaccine recipients typically experience minimal side effects -- the most common being temporary pain and swelling at the injection site, fevers, chills, tiredness, muscle aches and pains and headaches.
While these side effects are generally a minor nuisance to most people, some attempt to prevent them by taking common over-the-counter pain relievers like acetaminophen (Tylenol) or ibuprofen (e.g., Motrin, Advil) beforehand. However, experts said these medications might not just dull the pain, but they may dull the vaccine from fully working."
I've really been debating all of this stuff, but I guess I'm out now, I live in pain, and take prescription 800mg Ibuprofen, pain killers, and muscle relaxers daily. There's no way I'm sitting through several days feeling worse than I do on a given day, and no 'feel better' allowed, lol.
My brother is a NP working the ER, I think it was around last March, took a full discharge to the face of a man that definitely died from Covid, his lungs told the story for sure. My sister, and I thought my brother, who's extreme high risk due to health factors was a dead man. It's sad, but we watched my brother like a science experiment/barometer; he never even got sick. He's got mixed feelings as well on the vaccine, but he's definitely aware of what Covid can do to some folks lungs.
Be Safe out there, and should you get a vaccine, stay away from the Aspirin cabinet!
My read of the painkiller advice is that it says "MIGHT" and "FULLY (working)"
They don't really know, because with the accelerated testing, no one has checked for that interaction.
So in your case I'd just take your regular meds, and you will "probably" get "some" protection.
The actual injection isn't painful, but if you have muscle aches the next day it's probably OK to throw back some paracetamol, because the vaccine is already having an effect by that time. But taking them beforehand is useless, they will have worn off before it starts to ache, and they "might" interfere with the vaccination.
the idea is that your immune systems is what causes the inflammation, in the process of killing cells with the virus, and or attaching to the spike proteins that allows a virus to be unable to attach and enter a cell. We are used to talking about killing a pathogen, but viruses are not a live organism. they are packets of DNA or RNA waiting to get into a host cell to reproduce. the damage destroys the cell in the process. When our immune system recognizes that a foreign protein is present, it makes a counter protein (antibody) to attach to the virus, and cover the spike, or attract other immune cells to destroy the virus and even the human cells that are infected. the virus leave indicators (antigens) on the cell surface. anti-inflammatory medication, reduce inflammation (the immune collateral damage) and therefore theoretically reducing the immune response. steroids like prednisone is the worst, then ibuprofen, then maybe acetaminophen. any preparation for the immune system can save a few days of getting the needed response. so after the vaccine or having had the virus, you are better prepared, and stop the replication before it is too bad, or too late.
Quote from: Ianab on January 30, 2021, 08:09:47 PM
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 30, 2021, 07:04:32 AM
It's not about the 5 % at all. It's about being a carrier even if your immune. Going uncovered, sucking it into your airways, it being able to live a certain duration and you expelling it before it expires.
It's possible that could occur.
I just think the odds of being infected that way are REALLY slim.
Well, something else, a bit different than what I said earlier. We don't know how long immunity lasts yet. Since there have been reinfections after once having it, with natural immunity. We have not seen enough data on the vaccines' duration yet. This along with previous scenario (which may be media sensationalism) can give a false sense of security until we do have a handle on it. Doctors definitely recommend continuing distancing and masks even after vaccination. Hopefully, by this fall we can unmask. Who knows? No one yet. :)
John Hopkins says mask and distance afterward.
COVID-19 Vaccine: What You Need to Know | Johns Hopkins Medicine (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know)
CDC said to
Frequently Asked Questions about COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html)
Health Canada also
Recommendations on the use of COVID-19 vaccines - Canada.ca (https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/immunization/national-advisory-committee-on-immunization-naci/recommendations-use-covid-19-vaccines.html#b2)
I agree it can't hurt to keep taking precautions while the virus is still circulating. The virus seems to be able to transfer by surface contact sometimes, and people are a "surface". So masks / distancing / cleaning will all reduce the chances of that.
But with so few cases here in NZ they have been able to trace most infections from person to person, see what contact they had, and get a better idea of the risk factors. Some people catch it, but never pass it on, even to family. Others can go to the pub or church and infect 10 other people in one day. So that suggests what the high risk activities are, large groups close together, inside, talking / singing etc. There have been odd cases where surface contact has been the only link between the 2 people. They rode the same bus a few minutes apart, used the same elevator a few minutes apart etc. But those aren't the mass spreading incidents.
Anyway, the more the spread is suppressed then the faster it will be gone and the shorter the "tail" of the pandemic.
That sure is a good analogy, Ian, "the tail of the pandemic". As vaccination goes up, numbers will go down. We shouldn't count on the vaccine to do all the work though. We can shorten the tail by continuing to take precautions, including masks, distancing, hygiene. This is particulary important for those who choose not to take the vaccine. They will be counting on the natural immunity of those who have recovered and those who get immunity from the vaccine. Not knowing how long either immunity will last, I think we can count on getting a shot every year for a while.
I had the second dose this morning. My arm is starting to get sore. Waiting to see if I'll get the headache like I had last time. I felt well enough after the shot to go load the heaviest log I've ever done onto my trailer. It was a 12' walnut that calculated out to just shy of 2000lbs. That sure made my loading A frame creak and groan. Hopefully I'm not groaning later. Lol
"A mere stick", you can apply that to whichever pain needs it at the moment :D
I think old saw fixer got stuck about a week ago on the other end of the state. So far crickets about my wife getting a shot here at the dim end of the state. Part of why we moved here was to be ignored by the government, on this they have been most accommodating.
I wonder if it makes any difference, soreness wise, if you get the second in the other arm?
most of the side effects from the second shot, are from the enhanced immune response from the first shot, and if that is the case they would both react the same. to be honest, I do not know. If it is a local reaction, and or just bad luck, then either one could hurt as well. I had no arm soreness with number 1 or 2.
The local news service (MSM) says that you don't need the second shot if you've had COVID before.
Opinions please
I got my shot in the same arm, my left. I'm right handed and would rather have my weaker arm sore. It's the same this time as last. I've had quite a lot of vaccines in the last 6 months, since I had the flu shot and 2 doses of anthrax vaccine. I always have the same soreness. Hurts for a few days and then its gone.
Not getting the second shot due to having had covid sounds like someones opinion and not based on any real research.
FFOTS, I agree with you!
NEXT!
the only comments I have heard is to wait 90 days if you had covid or the monoclonal antibody. all of these recommendations are theoretical guesses as by definition, most of this is a first, and we do not have 10 years of real experience. not to mention no long term studies. they are still debating weather this will be a yearly shot to make modifications for mutation. the antibodies our body make in response to the vaccine may be different to the ones we make to the natural virus. one dose is helpful, but the repeat dose adds to the efficacy. If you are sick, they will postpone a vaccine, so the symptoms if you get sicker, will not be attributed to the vaccine. In the past, really good pediatricians would still vaccinate a kid with a cold, causes otherwise many kids that age would never get a vaccine. kids are sick all the time as when they are born they have their moms antibodies, but have never had the actual illness. they get 100 viral illnesses from 5 months to 5 years. that is 20 per year, and at 1 week each that is 5 month each year they should be sick, to build their immune system. they do not get infections for the first 5 month because they have moms passive immunity. thank God! :)
Quote from: doc henderson on February 03, 2021, 09:08:08 AM
the only comments I have heard is to wait 90 days if you had covid or the monoclonal antibody. all of these recommendations are theoretical guesses as by definition, most of this is a first, and we do not have 10 years of real experience. not to mention no long term studies. they are still debating weather this will be a yearly shot to make modifications for mutation. the antibodies our body make in response to the vaccine may be different to the ones we make to the natural virus. one dose is helpful, but the repeat dose adds to the efficacy. If you are sick, they will postpone a vaccine, so the symptoms if you get sicker, will not be attributed to the vaccine. In the past, really good pediatricians would still vaccinate a kid with a cold, causes otherwise many kids that age would never get a vaccine. kids are sick all the time as when they are born they have their moms antibodies, but have never had the actual illness. they get 100 viral illnesses from 5 months to 5 years. that is 20 per year, and at 1 week each that is 5 month each year they should be sick, to build their immune system. they do not get infections for the first 5 month because they have moms passive immunity. thank God! :)
Here they are using the term "variants" as there are up to five of them now. Is the term
"variant" the same as mutation. If it is then yearly vaccinations could be the norm. They are quite concerned about these new variants as they apparently are spread way faster and easily apparently.
I appreciate your knowledge and input here.
Lady friend received her second shot yesterday, has mild flu like symptoms, we get our second Monday.
Wife and I were supposed to be in line to get our shots the beginning of march from last weeks notice. Well got an email today from the University of Rochester health care system we are in telling us we should start looking elsewhere. They have 100,000 members qualified to be vaccinated right now but only received 3,000 doses they gave out already and don't know if more are coming. Guess we will just crawl back under our stone for a couple more months and wait for the next version that covers the African strain :'(. My SIL got hers last week and said she had the worst headache of her life for 3 days along with a very sore arm.
I'll report on our reaction to the second dose, if possible LOL! We both got just a slight soreness in our left arms, chosen by the nurses. I have no idea why they wanted our left arms. Connie had signed us up at the County Health Department and our PCP's center, the PCP called first.
I had my yearly appointment at the Pulmonary Docs today, to keep the CPAP script in place. I was talking to an younger fellow (he is 69) that lives in Chesterfield County and he hasn't heard anything yet about availability of the vax. If I needed the vaccination, I'd check with an MD since availability for County Health Departments seems sketchy.
Wife and I are scheduled to get round 2 next week.
I did have a headache last night which was about 30 hours post shot. It wasn't bad at all and was gone when I got up this morning. Arm still a tad sore, but I was able to sleep on it last night.
Numbers of positive cases and hospital admissions have been going down steadily and are now back to what they were around october. I guess its just because the holidays are over and people aren't getting together for parties like they were a month ago. I know for sure that MO hasn't vaccinated enough people to have an impact. Last I checked MO was doing the worst out of 50 states with vaccinating. We are the Show Me State and I guess we are showing you all.
We got a call from the PCP center scheduling Moderna #2 on the 25th of this month.
No vaccine in my area. :( I have COPD so the DR said I am high on the list.
Wife and I got our second dose of moderna today. So far so good but the waiting and watching has started. Louisiana is well on the way to have most critical persons and those over 70 vaccinated.
I'm set for my first shot tomorrow.
I originally had an appt. for Mar 5th, but a few days ago called and asked about cancellations, and the opening for tomorrow came available!
Now, I have to check to see if I can use the Mar 5th date for the second shot, but it will likely be cancelled and a new date selected!
If a person is exposed to someone with the virus how soon would that person be able to pass it to a third person?
yes. a variant has different DNA, otherwise the dna would be the same as the mRNA just gets replicated. so the variants mutated enough to evade those specific antibodies. if a mutation make a virus less communicable or infectious, it will not spread as it does not have an advantage. this is the problem as a mutation that makes a virus more likely to spread (confers and advantage), means it will become more prevalent, and why the bugs get stronger over time. survival of the fittest. if one marker on the surface remains the same then the antibodies made from the vaccine will work. just like antibiotics, if everyone had the vaccine, the only viruses to survive and replicate, are the ones that can evade the antibodies. so just like overuse of antibiotics, it can select for resistant strains. If the vaccine could wipe it all out we would be one and done. thus the concern for yearly changes in the vaccine to cover this. It is good that the new tech. is easy to modify. @donbj (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=43431)
incubation is 5 to 11 days... we think. @trapper (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=5228)
thanks doc
Quote from: doc henderson on February 05, 2021, 10:53:16 AM
incubation is 5 to 11 days... we think. @trapper (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=5228)
The biggest problem is you can be infectious for a day or so before the symptoms show. If you know you are sick it's simple to stay home. But if you dont know Yet, then there is a good chance you go to work / school etc and infect someone else. That's where the contact tracing and getting close contacts of a patient to self isolate for 14 days comes in.
you tend to be more infectious, the sicker you are. (more viral load).
Mom and dad got their first doses today. Mom had said they were scheduled for this coming MOnday, but called yesterday to confirm. The nice person on the other end of the call said, I show your appointments to be on the 5th and not the 8th. Not sure what happened there, but it was a good thing mom called to confirm.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 05, 2021, 03:43:09 PM
you tend to be more infectious, the sicker you are. (more viral load).
That makes sense as higher viral load and you start coughing them out. But at that point you know you are sick, and can take precautions.
But I think a lot of the community spread is from the early stages. You might not be as infectious, but you dont know to isolate.
yes, that is the reason for mitigation when you feel fine.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 05, 2021, 10:52:31 AM
yes. a variant has different DNA, otherwise the dna would be the same as the mRNA just gets replicated. so the variants mutated enough to evade those specific antibodies. if a mutation make a virus less communicable or infectious, it will not spread as it does not have an advantage. this is the problem as a mutation that makes a virus more likely to spread (confers and advantage), means it will become more prevalent, and why the bugs get stronger over time. survival of the fittest. if one marker on the surface remains the same then the antibodies made from the vaccine will work. just like antibiotics, if everyone had the vaccine, the only viruses to survive and replicate, are the ones that can evade the antibodies. so just like overuse of antibiotics, it can select for resistant strains. If the vaccine could wipe it all out we would be one and done. thus the concern for yearly changes in the vaccine to cover this. It is good that the new tech. is easy to modify. @donbj (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=43431)
Thanks doc for that explanation. Makes me wonder how these little mindless bugs can bob and weave and work to try and evade our efforts to defeat them.
Thanks again. Hopefully as better weather comes along things will settle down. Pretty tight restrictions got extended up here in BC today
Quote from: donbj on February 06, 2021, 12:57:43 AMMakes me wonder how these little mindless bugs can bob and weave and work to try and evade our efforts to defeat them.
There are probably millions of random mutations occurring with the virus. But most of them hinder the virus, so they don't spread, and we never know about them. But occasionally one comes along that makes it MORE infectious.
It's like the million moneys with typewriters. Eventually one will come up with a Will Shakespeare play. Evolution works the same, you don't see the million failed mutations, just the handful that work out better.
Yes, the virus is a great example of survival of the fittest. The weak ones can't compete, but the ones that are more virulent multiply and spread quickly.
It may still happen, but we have nearly zero RSV (kids) or influenza. it could still happen. the big fear was it would hit hard in the middle of covid and be our undoing. or worse get both virus together or in succession. that would make things even more fatal especially for the elders.
Wife and I got our 2nd Phizer shot yesterday. So far, so good. My arm is more sore this time but no flu-like symptoms.
One ray of hope I saw: the nurses, for the most part, WEREN'T WEARING MASKS!!! 8) 8) 8)They told us to keep wearing one for 2 weeks then we can shed ours. Can't wait.
People are screened before they enter hospital property. A guy at a security shack takes your temp and asks if you've had any symptoms.
so far the sheading the mask is not recommended, for sure not us med folks. with high prevalence you still do not want to get it and spread it. Not to mention influenza. be careful as I question where the info came from that led them to that conclusion.
I don't care how many monkeys you give typewriters, they'll never write a Shakespeare play.
even monkeys do not use typewriters anymore. :) we will cont. to wear as long as the numbers make a state mask mandate in effect. no one else knows that you have had the vaccine and we do not want another surge just as the vaccine is here.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 06, 2021, 09:05:03 AM
so far the sheading the mask is not recommended, for sure not us med folks. with high prevalence you still do not want to get it and spread it. Not to mention influenza. be careful as I question where the info came from that led them to that conclusion.
I sure do concur with that. There's not much worse example than to say "Do as I say, but not as I do".
I have a fire chief who is like that. That leads to our staff not putting theirs on when theyre supposed to. How can I chastise them when the one who sets the policy is not wearing his?
Update -second shot... good news and bad news. I have been following a project involving approximately 300 health care workers who got their second shot of the maderna vaccine. My experience followed theirs almost exactly. Side effects showed up 18 to 24 hrs after vaccination and lasted 36 hrs +-. chills, mild fever, loss of appetite, mild brain fog, mild dizziness , muscle aches and generally feel like the flu. When it's run it course, the symptoms disappear suddenly like throwing a switch, now I feel fine.
Nurses are getting the vaccine in my area, which they should.
Four persons my SIL has had close contact with at his work were diagnosed positive. He has been told to continue to come to work even if he feels sick. As relayed by him, two of the persons that tested positive are out and about in the community without any concern for others or their welfare and congregating with coworkers/friends at a gas station next to their workplace. Makes it hard to get ahead of this chit with attitudes like that. SIL is quite worried and nervous that he will get it. Can't say I blame him. We're supposed to keep the grand kids overnight next week but kinda not sure about that now.
I got my 1st vaccine yesterday 3:00, this morning the shoulder is a little tender, but no more-so than any other injection!
Next one due on the 27th.
Still have to maintain all caution! :P
Leeb, WOW!!!
If that happened where I work there would be a major shut down!!!!
I agree, unless absolutely needed, stay home. I think there is federal stuff on that now. As a physician, had the worst happened (it did not) we would have to work anyway. the worst would be 500 people trying to get into the ED, with people dying in the parking lot before we could get to them. armed police guarding the door, and locked down. I will not ask where he works, but with an out break he is right to be concerned he could spread it, and poss. get sick. If we only had one cardiologist, and he had covid, he would still do procedures in an emergency if he felt ok, and no one else was available.
We had similar discussions a while back. That is the definition of essential worker, we need to be there. We had a lot of plans that would be put into effect before that happened. Essentially, half of more of our staff would have had to have been sick at the same time. Also, neighboring dept. would have to have been in same situation. There was one local, small fire dept. that closed their doors for 2 weeks and had a neighboring dept cover their whole area.
Now, there are not that many jobs that are that essential that they NEED to go to work sick. If you are not that essential then going to work sick is irresponsible. I would guess that an employer that says come to work sick, also does not make employees wear masks.
It's almost as if they are trying to spread the virus.... :-\
New scheme just started here to provide a wage subsidy if someone has to stay home due to exposure / awaiting test results etc.
Business is expected to keep paying them, even if they have no sick leave, but can claim $350 a week to help cover that.
Quote"From tomorrow, businesses whose workers need to stay at home while they await a test result can contact Ministry of Social Development (MSD) and apply for a one off $350 payment to help pay that staff member while they await a result, if they are unable to work from home,"
Employers to get 0 payments for staff awaiting Covid test results, but unable to work from home | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/124177152/employers-to-get-350-payments-for-staff-awaiting-covid-test-results-but-unable-to-work-from-home)
One of the control measures that has been pushed here was "Stay home and get tested if you are sick" (for any reason). There has still been occasional cases of the virus slipping through the border, so tracing and isolating contacts is an ongoing thing. So far it's been enough to stop any major outbreak.
Why doesn't the government pick up the full tab of the employee's wages?
Quote from: barbender on February 07, 2021, 06:49:31 PM
Why doesn't the government pick up the full tab of the employee's wages?
When businesses have been forced to shut during a lock-down, the wage subsidy was 80%. This is more like an emergency unemployment benefit if you have to take a couple of weeks off due to being exposed. It's likely that it wont be used very often as cases are very few, but it will take that pressure off part time and low paid workers that might otherwise need to come in even if they are unwell or potentially exposed. It just takes away some of that pressure to "come in anyway".
A long interesting read on the development of the vaccine and the potential for the future.
The next act for messenger RNA could be bigger than covid vaccines | MIT Technology Review (https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/02/05/1017366/messenger-rna-vaccines-covid-hiv/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)
That was very informative, especialy since they talk of using it to cure other diseases. Maybe my cancer someday.
24 hours after second shot. Sore shoulder.
Wife and I got boostered today, we will see how this goes.
Our oldest daughter got her first dose of Moderna yesterday. She works for the County School Board in the central office. She had some discomfort in her injection site "like a golf ball in there" and some sweating. Young daughter is on the fence, still breastfeeds her little one at night and is not sure if that would be good for him. She also works in the county schools as a special needs teacher in the high school. My MIL (97) has had both doses of Moderna and no bad effects.
I had similar with my arm both times. There was a little bit of a knot around the injection site. It lasted about 2 days.
my wife had her second dose yesterday, and said it hurt to lay on that arm while sleeping.
48 hours since 2nd shot, no reaction. I joked with the guy that gave me the shots, said I heard the first shot was a placebo, the second shot was the real thing. Without missing a beat he said "Yeah, it's also has the microchip!"
the old farts are fun! :)
I am still waiting not so patiently to be notified that both my wife and I are eligible to make an appointment for the vaccine. We are both in the over 75 age group but as the last health care worker at my clinic admitted, MN is a mess and not getting any better.
But I have a question based on what they are saying in my area. the instructions are for when you are scheduled to bring your insurance card with you. The vaccine is free but your insurance will be billed for the administration fee and most insurance will pay 100 %. So who pays if you don't have insurance?
my wife is working in the city today and they by percentage have given much less than our town of 40k. it gets complicated at 500k.
Ok so 24 hrs post injection. I think I've got a good take from the vaccination. Flu like symptoms, low grade temp. Just kinda feel crummy. Pushed through work til 24hrs post injection and took some Tylenol,. It helped.
Hope you get feeling better 👍
Kinda sweated out the night but slept well. Actually feeling pretty normal so the rxn was roughly 30hrs. This morning, injection site is sore, The rest of me isn't perfect (obviously ;)) but feeing much better. I've got the day off so gotta get going and plug the tractor in.
72 hours, nothing
Polk County, Texas, has a mortality rate of .0294, Texas rate .0159, US rate of .0171. We are a retirement community some 70 miles north of Houston, a good number of retired energy industry folks. And yet these fine citizens ignore masks and distancing, some deny the existence of the virus, the science. Heavy losses in my age bracket, the young folks must think they are bullet proof, if they are, the bullets are ricocheting and killing us.
we are seeing more folks that had it a month ago, and fewer "got diagnosed 5 days ago". lots of morbidity a month later like blood clots ect. It was about 5 days after testing + that many then came to the hospital sick enough to get admitted.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 11, 2021, 03:09:32 PM
we are seeing more folks that had it a month ago, and fewer "got diagnosed 5 days ago". lots of morbidity a month later like blood clots ect. It was about 5 days after testing + that many then came to the hospital sick enough to get admitted.
Most of the deaths do seem to occur 2-3 weeks after infection, complications setting in maybe? Most people seem to shake it after a week or so, but if it lingers on, they steadily get worse.
It is encouraging to to see the "3rd wave" seems to have peaked, in early Jan, but with deaths following 3 or 4 weeks later, the death numbers have only just peaked this month.
Here's hoping enough vaccine gets distributed to stop a "4th wave" ::)
Amen to the 10th power!!! @Ianab (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=460)
I'm almost 2 weeks now since my second dose. It feels good to be at that point. I'm happy more and more are getting it, even if its slower than I would like.
We haven't ran calls at the nursing homes much during the last year. They have not wanted any of us in there to risk brining the virus in. Last week I went inside a nursing home for the first time in 9 months. It was for a cardiac arrest of a 60something male who had recently "recovered" from Covid.
Wife and I got our first dose of Pfizer today, second shot scheduled March 4th. We are anxious to get these behind us, we know it still won't be "normal", but maybe a little closer to it.
Quote from: Gary_C on February 10, 2021, 04:49:42 PMBut I have a question based on what they are saying in my area. the instructions are for when you are scheduled to bring your insurance card with you. The vaccine is free but your insurance will be billed for the administration fee and most insurance will pay 100 %. So who pays if you don't have insurance?
At a guess, you do. But it's should be the "negotiable cash price", not the made up invoiced price they charge the insurance company, then discount back to what it actually costs....
First vaccine doses are supposed to arrive here in NZ in a week or 2, but the actual vaccination program is realistically going to take the rest of the year, and that's probably the same everywhere? First doses go to border security staff, aircrew, port workers etc. They are most likely to be exposed, and take it home with them. After that I guess it's the most vulnerable folks, and then work their way down the list.
they are billing insurance to get something to help pay for the staff that was "hired" to give it. If your insurance does not cover, or you do not have insurance, I have been told it will be waived. It may depend on where you get it. Walmart, vs health department. any agency that has non reimbursed expenses, can apply for money to help. our hospital has kept track of all the additional stuff done in the name of covid, and can submit it. it will not be dollar for dollar, but every bit helps.
We're still on the double secret waiting list ::)
Doc have you heard if there is supposed to be a waiting period between injection and elective surgeries, I've asked her to check with the surgeon's nurse as well.
I heard a piece on the radio on the way home a week or two ago. They checked the DNA of the virus on a gentleman that ended up being a long hauler. When they checked him the first time he had the original US variant. After a long battle they checked again, he had bred 20 different variants. I don't know if any of the variants had mutated enough to be considered new strains but that sounds like playing a game of whack-a-mole.
We finally got scheduled for March 15 and 16.
I keep seeing folks on FB that got in right away.
They must live in front of their computers.
It is interesting, and in a way sad that we have unlocked so many secrets about the body. so just like kids do not look exactly like the parents, they do get the general outline, and some traits good or bad get passed on. their is nothing useful about knowing every detail in each person, but maybe this will turn out to be an explanation of the long hauler syndrome. Mutations occur in all things living ( and non living viruses). out cells are constantly fixing mutations or eliminating abnormal cells via the immune system. so finding dna that has mutated a bit in a long haul person is interesting. the concern would be if it confers and advantage to the virus that makes it more contagious or deadly. Most cancers are caused by a failure of the immune system to take out bad cells or to miss a mistake in dna that regulates growth and replication of cells. this is why you get "tumors" (that means a growing mass of cells). as we get older our bodies systems slow down and we are more likely to get cancer. if a mutation helps the virus evade the antibodies made in response to a vaccine, then we need a new vaccine every so often. or find an antigen that is common to all the variants. The ones with an advantage are the most likely to gain a foothold.
I called the clinic and asked if there were any cancellations and got in a month earlier, done this past Saturday!
Next one due in 3 weeks!
Just a heads up for folks getting their shots. Had no effect on either shot other than the standard vaccine arm. Now, 5 days out from the 2nd shot there is a painless knot on my arm, sensitive, but no real pain. We convinced my eldest daughter to get hers for a month, she finally signed up on Monday and received her first shot on Tuesday, this week. Texas has been slow but seems to be speeding up, some areas more so than others. Daughter is in Fort Worth. Your mileage my vary.
From a laymen point of view, to ignore the science is to ignore facts, the "I caint sees it, it dont exist" is the mood in a lot of low income areas, state and cities in Texas have been slow to dead stop in those areas. Communication is going to end up getting us open again, Texas seems to have come around and are pushing the media to "get er done".
Now the world seems to be tuning up there research and production of the vaccine, we were lucky, and may eventually claw our way out of this.
Quote from: Runningalucas on January 28, 2021, 09:33:00 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-do-coronavirus-variants-mean-your-masks-n1255518
"A mask "is a physical covering to prevent droplets (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-reverses-again-now-says-covid-19-sometimes-airborne-n1242167)," Fauci said Monday on NBC's "TODAY" show. "So, if you have a physical covering with one layer, you put another layer on, it just makes common sense that it likely would be more effective.""
""If you put three or four masks on, it's going to filter better because it's more layers of cloth," said Dr. Scott Segal, chair of anesthesiology at Wake Forest Baptist Health in Winston-Salem, North Carolina."
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/what-do-coronavirus-variants-mean-your-masks-n1255518
I posted this, as I've seen a few folks talking about wearing 3 masks; one was on an evening news program. Fauci is now stating that wearing 2 is smart.
Also, I'm reading that with the variants emerging, they're leaning towards continued vaccines regularly due to different strains.
No disrespect intended but your Dr Fauci guys has said so many different things its hard to know what the facts are with him. He has said masks do not work, now he says masks do work, and now he says double masks work... tomorrow we will suffocate with 5 masks. The only real fact with Fauci is he is one of the highest paid government workers and apparently will say anything that they need him to say for their agenda and all at your tax payers expense.
I do agree wearing a mask in certain situations can be beneficial (Like when robbing a bank) but I don't wear a mask in my daily activities but thats because I'm out in the sticks. Even when in town or the big city I often do not wear a mask. I went into a pharmacy the other day and they prevented me from going in because I did not have a face mask, I walked across the street to another pharmacy, went in and spend my money there. Their loss not mine.
JuanChair, I agree with what you said. I must caution you though about getting too political on here. I don't think you've crossed that line with your post, but it is headed in that direction. We try not to get too opinionated in this particular thread so it can remain as a place to share information. The admins keep a close eye on things here and make sure we all keep things in the good lane. It's one of the things that makes this forum so useful and enjoyable I think.
After a certain amount of time, and a number of posts, there are other areas of the forum which will open up to you. Enjoy your time here and keep poking around. There is much to explore.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 12, 2021, 07:14:33 AM
they are billing insurance to get something to help pay for the staff that was "hired" to give it. If your insurance does not cover, or you do not have insurance, I have been told it will be waived. It may depend on where you get it. Walmart, vs health department. any agency that has non reimbursed expenses, can apply for money to help. our hospital has kept track of all the additional stuff done in the name of covid, and can submit it. it will not be dollar for dollar, but every bit helps.
Doc a serious question for you,
Do you not see any red flags or gut feeling when they (the government or private business) wave any type of service fees while giving out free mandatory life altering (RNA / DNA changing) vaccinations for the "greater good".
I'm just one of those very skeptical types and apart from my forced vaccinations as a child which I had no say in, I have never had any yearly flu shots or other vaccines.
Even down here we have heard what your government did with the infamous unethical and human rights violation Tuskegee Syphilis Study.
I remember the old saying "nothing is free in life"
Quote from: btulloh on February 12, 2021, 05:02:50 PM
JuanChair, I agree with what you said. I must caution you though about getting too political on here. I don't think you've crossed that line with your post, but it is headed in that direction. We try not to get too opinionated in this particular thread so it can remain as a place to share information. The admins keep a close eye on things here and make sure we all keep things in the good lane. It's one of the things that makes this forum so useful and enjoyable I think.
After a certain amount of time, and a number of posts, there are other areas of the forum which will open up to you. Enjoy your time here and keep poking around. There is much to explore.
I apologize, I wasn't aware I had gotten political. I can be very opinionated and I admit I am rough around the edges at times due to my personal life experiences. Ill watch watch what I post but I have a lot of questions and I'm the type to challenge narratives.
Ill walk on egg shells here in this thread if you're saying I cannot speak unpleasant facts or ask / challenge things from my personal perspective. thank you for the warning.
so the idea is that everyone is at some risk, so the government is making it happen. the vaccine through the operation warp speed, we have already paid for the vaccine. many public health issues are handles so that cost is not a factor in deciding. if you do not want it, you do not have to take it. the title is meant to protect this thread so it does not get sent to the woodshed. We try to bring in politics, hearsay, alternative al natural, of conspiracy stuff. There are not too many facts known, as that will take years. It can be hard to tell the difference. If you disagree with something posted, we ask that everyone be respectful. It is not a sounding board for what you believe in your gut, or heart, but have no information about.
Well this is for facts and facts are facts (well maybe not so much any more :D) but this thread is trying to be about facts. We've had facts change it seems during the course of this thing, which you were just pointing out. I'm sure there are others who could disagree though and, we just want to keep this thread from being a debate based on individual perspectives. It's a fine line, because things need to be challenged but we also aim to respect others point of view. In this particular thread. Even though that goes against my personal nature. :D
so the vaccine is not required. the childhood ones are required to go to public school here. it is how we got rid of small pox and polio for the most part. the vaccine lets you body develop immunity in advance, so you are not as likely to be sick. It should not be changing your DNA, although that has been studied to help cure cancer as an example. ask any questions, you can make comments, but try not to argue for days about some out in the weeds theory, from an unknown source. welcome. :)
We don't all have to have the same opinions, but I agree with following rules and the heeding the wishes of property owners. I wear masks, because I believe in them and not solely because there is a mask mandate. If there was an establishment that I tried to enter and they had a sign that said, no one allowed who IS wearing a mask, I would turn right around and not go in. I wouldn't be mad about it.
Quote from: btulloh on February 12, 2021, 05:38:41 PM
Well this is for facts and facts are facts (well maybe not so much any more :D) but this thread is trying to be about facts. We've had facts change it seems during the course of this thing, which you were just pointing out. I'm sure there are others who could disagree though and, we just want to keep this thread from being a debate based on individual perspectives. It's a fine line, because things need to be challenged but we also aim to respect others point of view. In this particular thread. Even though that goes against my personal nature. :D
Yes I agree on the fluidity of the situation and "things" changing. For example out here near me is a small pueblo and a few months ago they had a person test positive for the virus. They closed the two roads into that pueblo and prevented anyone in or out. If you needed propane you had to bring your tank to a designated area leave it and walk back 40 yards out of the exchange zone, then the gas guy would go in and fill the tank. He would leave out and then you could go in and get your tank. Same went with food water and other goods.
This was all supervised by the police and they were there to ensure everything stayed locked down for 30 days. It was a real mess. They no longer lock down communities like they did that town but they did add restrictions on social events, closed all government buildings and services and schools..etc. I understand all that and that type of fluidity I can accept.
What I cannot understand or accept is a so called infectious disease expert who supposedly knows infections, transmissions, and viruses to waver so much on such important issues like a face mask. To clearly say they do not work or are useless to then say they do work only to say 2 are better than one... is completely different. That would be like an experienced firefighter saying water doesn't work on a fire then saying it does... and still wanting us to respect him. Wouldn't you question his mental functions.
I'm not here to challenge or politicize the mask issue but rather when something so massive as the validity on that issue alone which does divide people, I cannot help question everything else. This is why this thread is so very important for those who post firsthand information and facts as they develop.
I'm not upset over the masks or the vaccines, I will do what I personally feel is in my best interest but I am super curious on the overall ramifications of the entire situation.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 12, 2021, 05:35:25 PM
so the idea is that everyone is at some risk, so the government is making it happen. the vaccine through the operation warp speed, we have already paid for the vaccine. many public health issues are handles so that cost is not a factor in deciding. if you do not want it, you do not have to take it. the title is meant to protect this thread so it does not get sent to the woodshed. We try to bring in politics, hearsay, alternative al natural, of conspiracy stuff. There are not too many facts known, as that will take years. It can be hard to tell the difference. If you disagree with something posted, we ask that everyone be respectful. It is not a sounding board for what you believe in your gut, or heart, but have no information about.
Ok I understand that now and agree with you... I will limit my posts here to avoid any conflict or challenges. thank you Doc.
By the way are you an actual doctor in trade or is it just a title or nick name
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on February 11, 2021, 08:18:23 PM
I'm almost 2 weeks now since my second dose. It feels good to be at that point. I'm happy more and more are getting it, even if its slower than I would like.
We haven't ran calls at the nursing homes much during the last year. They have not wanted any of us in there to risk brining the virus in. Last week I went inside a nursing home for the first time in 9 months. It was for a cardiac arrest of a 60something male who had recently "recovered" from Covid.
I live in rural Mexico a 3rd world country so I'm sure we are on the bottom of the vaccine list and I doubt we get it offered for a long time. I'm watching this thread so I can get as much firsthand honest information on the vaccine and any side effects that I can. I appreciate all you and the others have posted and while I doubt I will get the vaccine once it arrives I do want to see whats happening to the first people who get it and what will happen to them weeks after their second injection.
We don't have nursing homes (or hospitals) out here but thats strange they would not let you go inside to treat people for other things like cardiac arrest. Its odd for us to see the USA news down here because I hear what you post about the nursing homes not wanting you in, yet in the same breath there is a lot of news on the scandal in New York where they apparently purposely packed the nursing homes with covid infected people.
Did they say the guys cardiac arrest was related to the COVID or the vaccine or was it unrelated.
As are we all. There is a tendency for information to be used to support an agenda rather than inform and selective use of certain facts mixed with conjecture plus the many unknowns means that it ceases to be informative but merely persuasive. Couple that with the fact that so much is unknown and it's perplexing. None of this should be political but merely a search for facts and understanding. Sadly though, nothing seems to work that way any more.
I think I'm getting close to the line. I don't want to get this sent to the woodshed, so I'll just leave it at that.
all of the above. it has been a wild ride. we have limited visitors to slow the transmission. It had been sad because some parents and grandparents have dies alone in a hospital. of family on the phone looking in through a window. we do make end of life exception for the family to be together. sounds like the arrest post was post covid recovery, and we are seeing a lot of that. we had a period where no one came to the hospital afraid they would get covid. I think in New York, they sent folks back to the NH without a good plan to quarantine them. and then covered up the numbers. but again that is getting close to politics. i.e. "do you love or hate the NY governor". good luck
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on February 12, 2021, 05:41:48 PM
We don't all have to have the same opinions, but I agree with following rules and the heeding the wishes of property owners. I wear masks, because I believe in them and not solely because there is a mask mandate. If there was an establishment that I tried to enter and they had a sign that said, no one allowed who IS wearing a mask, I would turn right around and not go in. I wouldn't be mad about it.
I totally agree with you 100%. I also respect the owner here (or any place) and respect the rules even I disagree.
Surgical masks are worn in hospitals because they help. They do not protect from major viruses so I can see bot sides. I do not get mad at all over face mask rules, I just quietly turn around and leave, life is too short to argue over stupid stuff. Down here we have bigger issues than a face masks.
@JuanChair (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=54666) Doc is a real Doctor of Medicine. He doesn't just play one on this thread.
Nursing home patients have been so hard hit by the virus that they have gone to great lengths to keep most people out. Only ones going in were workers and patients. The infirmed aren't going out to parties and getting the virus. The virus was being carried in by workers and visitors. What they have been doing is bringing the patients to the doors and handing off to EMS at the door.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 12, 2021, 06:32:51 PM
all of the above. it has been a wild ride. we have limited visitors to slow the transmission. It had been sad because some parents and grandparents have dies alone in a hospital. of family on the phone looking in through a window. we do make end of life exception for the family to be together. sounds like the arrest post was post covid recovery, and we are seeing a lot of that. we had a period where no one came to the hospital afraid they would get covid. I think in New York, they sent folks back to the NH without a good plan to quarantine them. and then covered up the numbers. but again that is getting close to politics. i.e. "do you love or hate the NY governor". good luck
Doc the other day Tuesday I was in the big city and stopped to see a friend who had been down with COVID two months ago or so. He shared how COVID had kicked his ass sideways and up and down like if he was a bad step child.
What I took away from that visit was how different he looked. His skin tone wast rather plastic looking, his eyes more intense and the coloring, his facial features (thinner). He was himself but looked different to a degree. He looked more intimidating.
I'm concerned with the heart related issues so many are seeing after the fact of infection and recovery. I'm also trying to keep up with side affects after the 2nd shot many are also having a few weeks later.
on a side note and not to derail the thread, In regards to politics you mentioned, yes its a fine line and I try to stay out of the actual political individuals or political parties and politics (they are the same to me... not worth talking about) but its hard to avoid not talking about policies that directly affect your business regardless of your political affiliation or politics.
For example although I live in Mexico your government policies do affect us and vice versa in terms of business. Under the current new US administration we are expecting more people to enter the USA for work and also more money coming back to Mexico which will stimulate our economy which leads to new construction and need for more wood.
So in that sense I don't see it as "politics" to talk about changing business related policies or in this thread case the COVID policies.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on February 12, 2021, 06:48:49 PM
@JuanChair (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=54666) Doc is a real Doctor of Medicine. He doesn't just play one on this thread.
Nursing home patients have been so hard hit by the virus that they have gone to great lengths to keep most people out. Only ones going in were workers and patients. The infirmed aren't going out to parties and getting the virus. The virus was being carried in by workers and visitors. What they have been doing is bringing the patients to the doors and handing off to EMS at the door.
Thats great he is a real doctor, that gives this threat a real advantage for sure. I only asked out of curiosity as I'm new here.
Yes I understand the elderly are much more susceptible to disease due to their fragile immune systems but then the question arises is it not like AIDS patients. They have a compromised immune system and yet they often die of pneumonia, or other factors all brought on by AIDS but their death certificate do not list AIDS as the cause of death. With COVID they are listing everything as a COVID death and that to me seems odd, as if they are once again contradicting long standing medical practices.
one thing for sure we can all agree on is we are leaning a great deal on how to deal with a pandemic and the next one that hits we will be a little more prepared
sounds like your local nursing home handles medial needs like that small pueblo near here that got put on lock down. they just had a safe zone hand off location.
That makes sense. The problem for us in the US is that everything has become political. This wasn't always the case, but it is now and there's no escape. Even entertainment and sports has become political. It's a sad thing really. A discussion about a viral disease should not be political, but that is the case here. Even a discussion of the efficacy of masks (or two masks!) immediately takes on a political cast.
Of course two-stroke oil and mix ratios are where things can get REALLY tense. Just go to the Chainsaw forum and look for "oil wars" or "best two-stroke oil" or similar. That subject can really cause a controversy! :rifle:
While I'm sure there have been deaths that were incorrectly ruled as Covid. I believe most deaths that you're referring to are ruled as complications of or from Covid. That is to say that while they technically recovered from Covid, they died due to related health problems caused by Covid. People end up with blood clots that cause strokes and embolism. They don't die of Covid, but they die of complications from Covid.
If anyone has an hour to spare this is a recent video where a couple of NZ scientists explain the local response to the virus. Timelines, measures taken etc. Its basically a Zoom type meeting with overseas colleagues.
New Zealand's COVID-19 Response - YouTube (https://youtu.be/go9Ar0bPkUk)
Juan talks about isolating one village to help control the virus. That should have some local effect. NZ isolated and locked down the whole country, for 7 weeks, and borders are still very restricted.
One thing they touch on was that there were a lot of unknowns, and to some extent that's still true. The dusty old "Pandemic Plan" wasn't really applicable to this new disease, so an evolving plan was formulated as the situation played out. These are some of the folks that were actually advising the Govt at the time.
The masks question? Early on it wasn't known if they helped or not, conflicting evidence and all that. It was possible that wearing a mask could actually increase the chances of infection, because the wearer was more likely to touch their face when adjusting the masks. So in the initial outbreak they were not recommended here, but the virus was quickly controlled without them. Ongoing research now suggests they are of some use, so advice has been changed. This isn't that officials were lying early on, they simply didn't know.
Quote from: Ianab on February 13, 2021, 12:23:27 AMThis isn't that officials were lying early on, they simply didn't know.
No, Dr. Fauci was lying thru his teeth when he initially said that. He knew that masks were of some benefit but lied because he did not want everyone to buy up all the supplies and short the healthcare workers. So we all now know that Fauci will lie when it's convenient and that's a known fact. Plus he has a recent history of moving the goal posts and putting out false information during the early days of the AIDS epidemic. ::)
Guys, I have yet to post in this thread and that has been intentional, monitoring it yes, but keeping out of it.
Let's drop ALL of the opinion and political dancing right now and keep it factual.
Quoting something some public figure said, absolutely fine, please keep the opinion out.
The Restricted Topics Board is where you can knock yourself out talking politics politely. This thread is intended to share information about what we know about the virus without the political ramblings, opinions, and theories that heat up debate. Therefore, this thread, "Just the Facts, the Crown Virus" is for those of us who eschew the political discussions and personal agendas that have characterized some of the threads in the Restricted Topics Board.
The Restricted Topics Board exists those who are not crazy from going crazy. You have a right to go in and a right to stay out.
I exercise my Restricted Board privilege by not engaging in any conversation. I enter, read, and exit. :P
Quote from: WDH on February 13, 2021, 08:19:42 AM
The Restricted Topics Board is where you can knock yourself out talking politics politely. This thread is intended to share information about what we know about the virus without the political ramblings, opinions, and theories that heat up debate. Therefore, this thread, "Just the Facts, the Crown Virus" is for those of us who eschew the political discussions and personal agendas that have characterized some of the threads in the Restricted Topics Board.
The Restricted Topics Board exists those who are not crazy from going crazy. You have a right to go in and a right to stay out.
How does one access these restricted topic boards
LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN
Quote from: doc henderson on February 13, 2021, 09:42:23 AM
LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN.
you have to request entrance. click on the link above.
Clicked on the link but it would not allow me access. There was also no place to request access or approval.
go to the linked topic, hit reply, and in your reply state that you request entrance. an admin will make that decision. just like you make replies here. good luck. doc.
You have to be a member for a while and make a certain number of posts before that "members only" area opens up to you. It's a right of passage. Patience!
Yea, new members wanting to discuss politics. Not a thing here. In fact old members discussing politics is not a good thing either, but what became a limited nessesary evil. Lets talk about where you are going to get your trees and wood from, not your politics.
Quote from: Jeff on February 13, 2021, 10:58:24 AM
Yea, new members wanting to discuss politics. Not a thing here. In fact old members discussing politics is not a good thing either, but what became a limited nessesary evil. Lets talk about where you are going to get your trees and wood from, not your politics.
I was unaware of the restricted area until another member brought it up. I'm not here to talk about politics and haven't done so other than to raise "On topic" policies regarding the Crown Virus here in this thread. I am not here to discuss politics at all in any thread. I would join a political forum if talking politics was my interest but its not.
As for the trees and wood, that would be for another thread and I am currently writing up those threads. One thread on my chair making business and the other on where and how I plan to get wood.
Quote from: Southside on February 13, 2021, 07:38:50 AM
Guys, I have yet to post in this thread and that has been intentional, monitoring it yes, but keeping out of it.
Let's drop ALL of the opinion and political dancing right now and keep it factual.
Quoting something some public figure said, absolutely fine, please keep the opinion out.
I would like to make a single post on 'the facts', for myself, and 'some' others. I live with a debilitating muscular dystrophy. My upper back, actually most of my back, as well as chest are dead. I've got more chest muscle, which is how I can manipulate my arms to do what's necessary for short amounts of time, but in doing so, I get extreme rotater cuff pain, lower back pain from contorting, as well as naturally restricted breathing due to the tightness in my chest. Usually by the time I'm done doing any sort of physical exertion, it's time for pain killers, a long nap, and often times a few to several days of recuperation. Nights after these days of work are the worst, usually entailing a cocktail of pain killers, muscle relaxers, ibuprofin, and yes, often times mixed with alcohol to just get through the night.
While I run a Stihl 461, I cannot start it properly, as I cannot raise my arms above my lower chest. The only way I can get it going is a distorted drop start. I've got strong hands, so I can hold onto the saw, but starting it is always a challenge, and my chaps, and boots, while using the brake, show the whoopsies. if I don't get the sucker started after just a few pulls, then I don't use it that day, as I'll be too worn out, and it'll cause extreme migraine like headaches from tension caused to my neck from repeated drop starts. Likewise, do to this condition, I only run one tank of fuel in a day; as I'll go till I really hurt myself otherwise.
Usually I'm worn out, and in need of some serious rest, and perhaps for a couple days. Other times, and unknown why I feel better, and can do more. It's a maddening disease. Why do I mention this? Our local health dept doctor made a televised appearance, stating anyone not wearing a mask was a fraud, and that there's no disease that would limit wearing a mask. He actually got on tv, the local news, and advocated for those people not wearing to be shunned, and harassed.
Well, I know for myself, not only due to fact it's difficult to reach my face, let alone my ears, as well as having documented breathing problems due to hardly any muscle being of use, and what is constricts my breath, well, I've got a serious issue with masking. My point? I'm affected, and other disabled folks are the same.
Take deaf people, they read lips, they're now a 2nd class citizen like myself, along with all other people that are mobility impaired.
Along this line, when the box stores were imposing their stupid enter this way, but not that way stuff, it made doing any sort of shopping almost impossible for me. I walk, but for limited distances, and it better be for something 'worth it'. The box stores corralling people into their stores, would leave the handicap spots at one end of the store, but the entrance at the complete opposite side of the store. They never had any provisions set aside for handicap.
Likewise, the folks in nursing homes are being treated like lab rats. Both of my parents died in nursing homes in the last 8 years. Each of my parents lived through at least 1 winter in the homes, my mom lived through 2. Each winter, every winter the common cold, and common flu would ravage these places. I'd ask the nurses about the flu, and pneumonia vaccines, and the efficacy as all would get vaccinated... Well, probably due to myself, and open blunt honesty, they'd reciprocate. Basically every winter was a nightmare of sick, and dying due to these common things. My mom's last winter 7 years back, the pneumonia finished her off. While it was painful to know it was coming, I was able to be there for her, with her. Today? They're lab rats, and anyone who realizes how these facilities work, and the average stay is under 6 months(til death, or discharge), well, it's just wrong to isolate the terminally ill.
My point on all of this? The real facts are we're only as strong as our weakest link; it's a true statement, as we all know where 'the chain breaks' in all things.
After seeing the local health dept doctor's news interview, and really 'feeling' his words, I called his office. They stuck by everything he said; yet failed to acknowledge their very own ADA guidelines regarding masking, and coronavirus in regards to disabled. I filed a medical board complaint against the doctor for giving out not only misleading information, but actually false information that was sure to cause issue.
It actually did too. Not that long after that, a man who claimed a medical condition, walked into a grocery store without a mask, was assaulted for doing such. There's a video online somewhere of the literal mob chasing, and harassing him. But the Medical Board found no correlation between the two, and said the doctor was good to go. Too bad it was discovered a little while later, that he was a 'touchy feely' sort of guy, and lost his job any ways; I guess Karma is a real -----. I've had my own incidences of those 'virtous' folks who feel the need to say something. Usually by the time I'm done talking to them, and mentioning their 'privilege', well, I don't think that those particular ones will ever say anything again to someone else; as they literally may not be able to 'comply'; that's what this is, compliance after all.
I also turned in a DOJ complaint against the box stores as well for the parking arrangement, and how it literally didn't work for disabled. All of it, was denied because of the 'pandemic'. The medical board said the health dept doctor was in his rights, and the DOJ stated due to the pandemic, 'tough luck'.
For myself? I really don't care. My disabilities have allowed me to see the world in a different way, a way in which, 'The Emporer's Clothes are laid Bare'. My time will be shorter than most on this earth, it's already affecting my heart; in many ways, I'm more free than most. So I'll never shut up till god takes my last breath.
To be clear, nothing I wrote above is open for debate, or intended in any way to be taken as political in nature. It's an account of a disabled person living through the weirdest times in most people's lives. We're proverbially pushed in cookie cutter fashion to fall in line of compliance; while the decades of pandering to the 'original protected class' of disabled folks, is cast to the curb, and down the gutter, into the storm drain, and down the sewer. It sure is interesting to experience, and telling as far as where we go as a people from here.
On that note, rant off, if anything I wrote was unclear, feel free to ask me to clarify.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on February 12, 2021, 08:01:30 PM
While I'm sure there have been deaths that were incorrectly ruled as Covid. I believe most deaths that you're referring to are ruled as complications of or from Covid. That is to say that while they technically recovered from Covid, they died due to related health problems caused by Covid. People end up with blood clots that cause strokes and embolism. They don't die of Covid, but they die of complications from Covid.
In your line of work I'm sure you have connections to medical examiners and such, if so what are they saying about death certificates and causes of deaths being written. Are they adding "Complications due to COVID"
of course, we are seeing complications of covid. some folks are admitted due to having covid, as they cannot go to another hospital or unit, such as a psych. unit. lots of blood clots and secondary pneumonia. If they did not have another problem, they would be sent home with covid. it is not fraud, but a fact of covid. I respect the fact that the elderly are cared for by family and not a nursing home. what else can they do to protect the infirmed but block the entrance. @Runningalucas (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=23004) sorry to hear of your diagnosis. i hope you do well. if you cannot wear a mask, get vaccinated, or send someone to the store for you. I respect that you are independent, and take care of business. If you can start a chainsaw, the you can prob. wear a mask. If not, stay home. I hope I have not missed something in your comments. the mask is not the end all, but a courtesy to those around you. it is only part of the mitigation and reduces risk by a percentage. god bless.
Yaknowwhat, in my great state, if you have a valid CCW and are carrying, you can't legally wear a mask. That's a strange turn, don't you think? The question has even been posed to the State Police HQ. That's where it was told!
The mask work for a number of reasons but only if worn properly. I still see an abnormal amount of people that just don't understand this basic little thing. Not covering the nose, I mean, wear it correctly or don't wear it at all. How do we educate the people that don't want to be educated about doing it correctly?
Bzzz Bzzz Bzzz.
All our cellphones just lit up.
Lil had earbuds in talking to her Sis. :D
Anyway 3 un-tracked cases in Auckland today. Auckland is back to Level 3 from midnight, and L2 for the rest of us. Reason is the cases were picked up with no obvious source of infection. If you find 3 cases, there is probably 3 more, and the original source of infection. L2 just has some restrictions on large gatherings, and eating out etc.
@Tacotodd (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=50744) maybe we can develop a bikini style mask that barely covers the mouth, and barely covers the nose (2 piece) and then (leaving very little too the imagination) you can protect those around you and still carry. :) I know we have only had a handful of cases. none of it is perfect, but we have only had a few thousand cases of flu. also the southern hemisphere had a mild year preceding us and that is where ours comes from, and record numbers of people got the flu shot this year almost 200 million. the mitigation after the cat is out of the bag, is to slow the spread enough that hospital are not overwhelmed. With only a few cases and folks spread out like @Ianab (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=460) you can actually contain the virus.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 14, 2021, 07:39:51 AM
With only a few cases and folks spread out like @Ianab (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=460) you can actually contain the virus.
Doc, isn't it true that test and trace is still an effective tool? Masks, social distancing, avoiding large crowds are also useful tools? Vaccines are also a tool. Early hominids used tools. or is it arrogance on our part to call ourselves Sapiens?
Quote from: Claybraker on February 14, 2021, 10:41:29 AMDoc, isn't it true that test and trace is still an effective tool?
It is, until the number of cases gets so high that it overwhelms the health authority's ability to carry out the work.
Taiwan for example closed borders, implemented quarantine and track / trace really early on, and have done 10X better than NZ, without any hard lock down restrictions internally. But they had the resources in place to do this from day one, having learned from earlier virus outbreaks.
The current restrictions here are hopefully short term, only 3 days currently. But that would change if the outbreak is found to be more widespread. It's just not known where this family picked up the virus from, which means there must be other cases wandering around, possibly asymptomatic. They should have the genetic testing completed today, which can help match up how they got infected.
But that sort of tracing is only possible when there are only a few cases. Once there are thousands every day it's impractical.
Doc up here in Rochester there is a company that makes masks with a clear area in front of the mouth. It's for families and people that deal with the deaf because many deaf rely on lip reading along with sign.
Our boy has Covid. Went to a company seminar where they served food and drink so the masks came off for a while :'( . Luckily His wife and the 3 grandchildren have tested negative. He has not been hit bad so far and isolated in a spare room in their home.
Masks do work but at Walmart the other day I saw a woman with 2 masks. A cloth one with a paper one on top and it looked like they were both very loose and totally ineffective. I guess it made it hard to breathe so she loosened them so the air wouldn't go though them. Common sense may be a thing of the past.
@21incher (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24694) my wife is an audiologist and uses the masks with the clear window. I'll have to ask her where she got them. She doesn't wear them all the time, but knows what patients to wear them for. The rest of the time she wears N95 masks when patients are in the office. A while after the pt. leaves she and her employee switch to wearing surgical masks. They have both had both doses of vaccine.
Sorry to hear your son is sick. I sure hope he gets well soon.
If everyone did it all right all the time, it would solve lots of problems! :)
OK, not sure if this is a good question in this post or not, but here goes. How effective do you feel the testing is with the high numbers of infection we are experiencing? Personally I feel it would be money better spent on vaccine, distribution, and personnel to administer it.
Quote from: LeeB on February 14, 2021, 10:29:02 PMPersonally I feel it would be money better spent on vaccine, distribution, and personnel to administer it.
Fair point, but I think the holdup in the vaccination program isn't a lack of $$, it's a lack of manufacturing capacity to actually make enough vaccine. The drug companies have been expanding their production ability over the last few months, but you can't just magic up a new drug factory overnight, and then there is the supplies of the ingredients etc.
No doubt there are inefficiencies in the over all vaccination project to fix, production is being increased and new vaccines are still being approved, which should increase the overall supply. But until the production increases, improving the distribution / manpower to administer the doses wont change much.
First doses of Pfizer only arrived in NZ today, and border workers will start getting shots in the next few days. Getting them into folks arms isn't going to be a problem, it's just the supply is limited, so mass vaccinations probably wont begin until July
the testing is helping people to get routine stuff done like a gallbladder surgery. It helps us know what floor to put someone covid + or - in the hospital. also helps if you want to travel, and if a family member tests +, the family can do triple secret quarantine. It would be great if we had all the vaccine on the first day, you give me mine and I will give you yours ect. ect. If it was easy, everyone would be a doc right. good question, but I agree with a multi pronged approach, as that is all we have.
The State Health Dept. notified us that due to the road conditions and traveling curfew that has been imposed, our 2nd Moderna shots have been rescheduled from tomorrow 'till Sunday.
I am up from my normal one cup of coffee per day to three and the cookies are 'bout all gone. ::)
My wife and myself were scheduled for or second Pfizer shots tomorrow. Because of weather , they are moved to Friday.
Braved the 6 inch plus snow today and got my second shot.
Interesting account/idea of reinfection after immunity.
4 Oregonians test positive for COVID-19 despite being vaccinated - OPB (https://www.opb.org/article/2021/02/12/oregon-covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-infections/)
"These re-infections, called "breakthrough infections," are infections that occur more than 14 days after receiving the second dose of vaccine.
Given the effectiveness rate of the two vaccines —95% for both Pfizer-BioNTech's and Moderna's — it's inevitable that some of the 177,000 vaccinated Oregonians would become reinfected."
During the vaccine testing phase some of the trial folks got the real vaccine, yet still caught the virus. But ~20X the number in the control group got the sick. That's where the 95% effective number comes from. If none of the vaccinated had caught it, then they would be able to say something like "more than 99% effective". No reason to think that things will be different in the larger roll out.
So some cases even after the vaccine is expected. But it should get the population over that mythical herd immunity number, where the disease dies out. Once ~80% of the population is immune, it's hard for the virus to find enough new hosts to move to. Then your 100 new cases become 50 next week, then 25 etc...
It's also thought that the vaccine could give partial protection, so you still get sick, just not as badly.
Finally tonight I was notified that both my wife and I are eligible to get our vaccinations. So I went thru the lengthy process to schedule our vaccinations and there were no times available. At least they know we are still here.
On another subject, I just heard again about Vit D and zinc. Apparently if your levels of both are adequate, even if you get Covid the symptoms are far less than if you get a cold or the flu. They think the lower levels of sunlight in northern latitudes in the winter causes worse symptoms if you get the virus. Those with adequate Vit D and zinc levels have a much easier time if they contract the virus.
Is anyone taking vit D or zinc supplements?
almost impossible to sort through the fact vs fiction. my wife took it for a while. I took it for 2 days to make her happy. we are both in health care, she is a pharmacist. some doctors are promoting it, but there is no way studies have been done and most will say there is no evidence to support it. I agree, but other than the cost, not much harm done if you decide to take it..
I take vitamin D and B12. The bi annual blood tests my doctor requires show if the levels are off and mine drops during the winter. Taking the right amount keeps it at proper levels. I will not take any supplements my doctor doesn't request because some can affect the kidneys and liver.
Well our son is just about recovered. Said it was like a bad case of the flu and he can go back to work the end of this week. So happy it didn't hit his lungs.
NY still is a mess with getting vaccinations out and hopefully soon the local pharmacies and Walmart will also start dispensing so we can get a date.
Just had a section on the news showing Ford is now starting to work on clear masks now that should be available soon.
Quote from: Gary_C on February 16, 2021, 04:01:34 AMs anyone taking vit D or zinc supplements?
I think it's pretty well accepted that a deficiency of some vitamins / minerals can lower our immune system, but it's not really proven that taking extra will help.
But if you are a little low, and don't know it, then I guess boosting your levels could help. I'm pretty sure it's not a "cure", but it could improve your odds of only getting a mild case?
I'd even wager that if a randomised study was done with Vit D vs no Vit D, that the ones taking Vit D could be "x"% better off, because it's boosted some of the patients that were vitamin deficient to begin with? But no ones done that study as there are higher priorities right now, so we don't know what "x" is.
Like the Doc says, throwing down a couple of supplement tablets each day shouldn't hurt anything, and at least then you know you wont be more vulnerable due to low levels.
Quote from: Ianab on February 16, 2021, 02:18:16 PM
Quote from: Gary_C on February 16, 2021, 04:01:34 AMs anyone taking vit D or zinc supplements?
I think it's pretty well accepted that a deficiency of some vitamins / minerals can lower our immune system, but it's not really proven that taking extra will help.
But if you are a little low, and don't know it, then I guess boosting your levels could help. I'm pretty sure it's not a "cure", but it could improve your odds of only getting a mild case?
I'd even wager that if a randomised study was done with Vit D vs no Vit D, that the ones taking Vit D could be "x"% better off, because it's boosted some of the patients that were vitamin deficient to begin with? But no ones done that study as there are higher priorities right now, so we don't know what "x" is.
Like the Doc says, throwing down a couple of supplement tablets each day shouldn't hurt anything, and at least then you know you wont be more vulnerable due to low levels.
In October/November of '19, before it hit here in the Western States, I'm positive i had it, and heard similar symptoms from several people; couldn't really taste anything, couldn't really smell anything. I had more aches than usual in my spine, more so it felt like a thousand little knives almost; mainly just an irritant than anything. Also, my pulse oximeter I thought was broken as it was showing my o2 in the low 90's.
I was getting around okay, but it stuck around just tired, and little lethargic for about 6 weeks.
My 'defense' were the supplements people commonly read about. I've also got a very expensive colloidal silver machine, and used that as well; the 4 years I've been using the colloidal silver, I've not had any bronchitis; which I used to get yearly.
I quit checking my o2, as I thought the pulse oximeter was broken, but when feeling better, checked it, and o2 did end up, back up to around 98. Maybe it was a walking pneumonia, no idea. I do a lot of my own doctoring, it's my body, my personal responsibility, but in doing so, I make sure to get yearly full blood panels done; as some of my supplements are for muscular dystrophy; like selenium, and take a little more than recommended.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/D28B0615-63F0-4453-A586-7E5D61AC6F60.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1613503883)
Doc Henderson, care to hypothesize what the extreme cold will do to the pandemic? A week or two of dead travel should have some effect, even though you are stuck with your family 24/7.
great question, and you are correct to call it estimated overeducated guess. :) most viruses go up in the winter as more people stay inside, and have close contact with others. Our traditional flu goes up in winter. usually starts in November, peaks, and is gone or reduced by march. this year we are seeing very little flu "so far" but due in large part from mitigation for covid. At least now we have a combination of staying inside, but also a respect/fear of covid giving us motivation to follow mitigation guidelines. We also see an outbreak of croup usually in the spring and fall, from parainfluenza virus. we are not seeing it. We are seeing virtually no flu but if we let up, could just have a delayed peak until march. these are the reasons I think, some of the mitigation may go on "forever". Thank God we were able to skip the flu this year (so far) and be able to devote resources to covid. We are seeing an increase in people who live in run down houses come for food and heat issues. so as Gilda Radner used to say. It's always something! I hope the cases continue to drop, but with all things combined, it may be hard to tell if it was the cold weather, or all the other things coming together.
Logic and circumstantial evidence suggests that less travel / going out means less chance for the virus to spread. Simply, the less people you see during the day, the less your chances of being infected are.
Whether that's because there is a lock down, or the weather is so bad everyone stays home shouldn't change the actual outcome.
If no one in your household is infected, and none of you mingle with anyone else, then you can't get infected.
We've just dropped below the pre Thanksgiving numbers for the first time, so the holiday gatherings have finally worked out of the system here.
On vitamin D, doesn't matter who you are I can just about guarantee you are deficient.
For flu, snotty nosed younguns are the main vector, schools are the main source. They have been closed or practicing better hygiene.
Wifey & I are scheduled for Monday vaccination. I guess our state remains high on the efficiency rate for the country so far which is a nice change.
I have sorta "social distancing" with PatD since we got that 1½" of snow/sleet mix yesterday. She has been standing and peering through the window with tears rolling down her cheeks. It's getting cold outside and I .....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/D55595D8-3877-4C00-93E7-8EC39B588CCD.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1613523084)
may have to let her in. ::)
Quote from: Runningalucas on February 15, 2021, 09:52:37 PM
Interesting account/idea of reinfection after immunity.
4 Oregonians test positive for COVID-19 despite being vaccinated - OPB (https://www.opb.org/article/2021/02/12/oregon-covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-infections/)
"These re-infections, called "breakthrough infections," are infections that occur more than 14 days after receiving the second dose of vaccine.
Given the effectiveness rate of the two vaccines —95% for both Pfizer-BioNTech's and Moderna's — it's inevitable that some of the 177,000 vaccinated Oregonians would become reinfected."
Down here we get news texts on our cell phone 3 times a day regardless if you want them or not. There is an option on the front page of either Spanish or English and I did a screen shot showing this.
One image is in Spanish and the next is in English.
Anyway in these daily news reports they have A LOT of non-stop official COIVD updates and information.
I know for a fact that those reinfections you mentioned reported in the news are causing a lot of people down here to not trust the vaccine even if their fears are unfounded.
We got our first shipment of Vaccines last week and they started going out on Monday. For some reason the Federal Health Department decided it was best to send these first vaccines to 333 rural pueblos for the poor elderly people. They made a big deal in the press and highlighted it all, I screen shot an image where they are constantly talking of people over 100 years of age getting the shots.
Well within 24 hours after one of these elderly people getting the vaccine, they died.
The fall out was immediate and the story was blocked. I would invite you to read the comment section but its all in Spanish and there is no translator for the comment section. Basically a lot of people are mad and feel (even if its unfounded) the vaccine has other sinister motives. Now in every news story regardless of the story, in the comment section they mention the deleted story and the issues. Kind of like where you see that Jeff Epstein didn't kill himself all over comment sections in YouTube.
They question why the government would send out the vaccines which are in very limited numbers, to poor rural areas and give it to very isolated 118 and 120 year old people instead of not first giving it to front-line workers in the hospitals in the large cities where mass spreading and infections are occurring. Maybe they feel helping the elderly in the rural areas will prevent them from getting sick and needing to go to the large cities for treatment.
One screen shot indicates there are a possible 6,691 reactions possible with this vaccine and 33 serious reactions. People are scared of this high number of reactions (they say so in the comment section - just reporting the facts)
Since we just started vaccinating here Ill try to post screen shots of just factual up to date news and information. If there is something anyone wants me to look up or find regarding the vaccine here in Mexico just ask.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/64666/News_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1613577319)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/64666/news_4.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1613577320)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/64666/News_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1613577320)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/64666/news_5.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1613577321)
Quote from: Gary_C on February 16, 2021, 04:01:34 AMIs anyone taking vit D or zinc supplements?
Yes my wife and I are, here are we we are taking. I had these bought in the USA and sent to us.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/64666/IMG_20210217_104439c.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1613580515)
No matter what order they chose to vaccinate someone will complain. Initially when they started folks would say politicians were jumping the line to get their shot first and if they declined they said he did not trust it so why should they. My thoughts are give it to the people who are at the greatest risk and it sounds like that is what your gov't tried to do. The only issue is different opinions on who is at the greatest risk? I am just happy every time I see anyone get a shot because I figure that is another break in the chain and you break enough links it can't spread.
Quote from: Magicman on February 16, 2021, 07:55:01 PM
I have sorta "social distancing" with PatD since we got that 1½" of snow/sleet mix yesterday. She has been standing and peering through the window with tears rolling down her cheeks. It's getting cold outside and I .....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/D55595D8-3877-4C00-93E7-8EC39B588CCD.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1613523084)
may have to let her in. ::)
I hope you have a warm doghouse MM!
the vaccines have been released early as there is a world wide pandemic, and considered drugs under investigation. that means they have to be used as directed, any and all reactions and side effects are encouraged to be reported. all of this has to be reported, as this is how they will figure out if there is a correlation with the vaccine. the vast majority of side effects are unrelated, but if not reported, you would never know. it is like we are continuing to study the vaccine and looking out for problems. the package insert will list even a one time issues with a drug, and these inserts are what make up the book called a PDR. Just like the placebo effect where people taking sugar pills (control group) in a study, they may reports lots of benefits, as well as side effects, even though taking the placebo. so especially with all the politics and fear mongering, many people prob. feel worse than they otherwise might, due to the fear and expectation of serious side effects. If you recall, I posted a picture if the package insert. the size of a newspaper, but black except for a number that correlates to the drug (vaccine).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/EC774C10-A0C1-497D-BCA6-4B6D3BE568D8.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1611625492)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/13A05559-B56F-4347-A068-78622A3B85E7.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1611625493)
I checked in my area, they're dispersing vaccines to first responders, health staff, seniors, nursing home residents, and the homeless. The homeless is interesting, as most here are on drugs; the police don't do anything unless they actually assault someone, so you see some real weird stuff.
On that note, I'm seeing this will become a yearly vaccine like the flu shot, and then aren't sure whether it'll work as there are multiple strains now. I know that the 3 winters I was going into nursing homes to visit relatives, the flu, and pneumonia vaccine didn't stop much.
New Nigerian Covid variant found in UK 'could be resistant to vaccines' - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-nigerian-covid-variant-found-23510030.amp?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true)
"Dr Simon Clark, from the University of Reading, said the new strain - first detected in Nigeria - could 'blunt' immunity from any vaccine or previous infection after 32 cases were found in the UK"
^^^ Regarding the above link, I read another article while at the doctor's earlier, that they think there's now a California strain mixed with a UK strain that's also proving to resistant; perhaps it's tied in with this Nigerian strain.
Dose anyone have the numbers on "deaths related to vaccine" or even the numbers on "serious reactions" ? I think it is to soon for any numbers on the "side effects on unborn babies" ?
I know people say the numbers are small or the numbers are to be expected, or "within range" of other vaccines, but, What are the numbers ?
I don't know if these numbers are available to the public yet or if they are kept hidden. But all of the facts i can find so far are questionable or written in medical jargon that i can not interpret.
Even a link to where to find this info.
I had breakfast with a long time buddy today and his son is a pharmacist at the local hospital. The son has been helping with the vaccines and said it appears that the older people don't seem to be affected (sick) with the second vaccine as much as the younger people are.
Another thing I saw on TV was at a vaccine center in a neighboring county it appeared they put a white patch on their arm and then gave the shot through the patch, first I ever saw anything like that.
most medications that are effective, have side effects. I know numerous people that have died from covid both in person and in my work. I have cared for those that had the vaccine and had a headache and or nausea or muscle aches. as we have said before, the side effects from the vaccine are a good thing in that they indicate that the vaccine is fooling the immune system so it is prepared in the future. If you get the virus or the vaccine we know you can get covid still, but be less sick. If you are so old and frail that getting a small fever or other side effect pushes you to the other side, then you prob. were not long for this world. I guess you can imagine that getting covid would not turn out well either. I do not personally or through my profession know anyone who has died or had a serious side effect from the vaccine. One case of low platelets thought to be related to having the virus. this can happen from other viruses as well. Unborn babies born to a vaccinated mom, should then have about 5 months of immunity if that vaccine and passive immunity works like other vaccines and infections. Like all medications you have to weigh the risk of the vaccine and its side effects vs the disease. no numbers, based on my experience. @Tristen (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=52938) I hope that was plain enough without being too blunt. they will publish and investigate all deaths in proximity to the vaccine, it does not mean it was caused by the vaccine. Doc
remember, we all have different ideas about what constitutes a serious reaction. to many lay people, "having" to go to the ED makes it serious. to me, if you get to go home from the ED, it was not too serious. ;) :)
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) It is hard to weigh the risk vaccine v/s covid if we don't have good numbers on the side effects of the vaccine. I agree and enjoy everything you said and all of your great information. thank you
I got my first shot at Walmart yesterday at 6 30 AM . By late afternoon my arm hurt some by 7 00 PM I was getting real tired . Went to bed about 8 and woke this morning feeling fine . went to the woods later and limbed and bucked for a couple of hours . Tonight the injection spot is tender thats the last of the affects . IT was the Maderna [spelling] vaccine .
Quote from: doc henderson on February 17, 2021, 07:31:34 PMI do not personally or through my profession know anyone who has died or had a serious side effect from the vaccin
What about the claims people are becoming sterile due to the vaccine and wont see these reactions or affects until later down the road when they go to have children (or try to). There are some reports that the vaccine is causing this. edit that last part out as it came off wrong... see the next post for clarification
Quote from: JuanChair on February 17, 2021, 08:38:46 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on February 17, 2021, 07:31:34 PMI do not personally or through my profession know anyone who has died or had a serious side effect from the vaccin
What about the claims people are becoming sterile due to the vaccine and wont see these reactions or affects until later down the road when they go to have children (or try to). There are some reports that the vaccine is causing this. Would you consider this a serious side affect.
I think I worded that in a wrong way... What I mean is is sterilization happens is it normal or is that a serious side effect.
In ten years we will look back and know it all. I decided to get the vaccine. we are used to the FDA CDC having done 20 years of research before new drugs are released. When I fly, I reassure myself that the pilot does not want to die either, and will do all possible things to get us there safely. Of course there have been the very rare pilot suicides. Most of the grown ups in the room feel the vaccine is safer (than getting the virus), and if done quickly can shut this down. hard for the virus to mutate unless it is replicating person to person. I wish we had numbers but until we have lots of numbers, you cannot make assumptions about random cases. I try not to push it too hard, cause I will just sound like another doctor with an agenda. Like all things, make the right decision for you and live with the consequences.
I have not seen any credible report on that, and is poss. propaganda from the non vaccer crowd. they send info to new parents with a scull and cross bones on the cover telling them to not vaccinate their children. I will keep an eye out.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 17, 2021, 09:16:22 PM
I have not seen any credible report on that, and is poss. propaganda from the non vaccer crowd. they send info to new parents with a scull and cross bones on the cover telling them to not vaccinate their . I will keep an eye out.
Yes please keep an eye open for anything related to sterilization because a lot of people down here are superstitious (not so much antivaxers with an agenda) but just leery of anything the government says or does and with reason see all the ulterior motives our government always has. Our government killed all those students in two different mass massacres so the people are leery.
Quote from: JuanChair on February 17, 2021, 09:24:43 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on February 17, 2021, 09:16:22 PM
I have not seen any credible report on that, and is poss. propaganda from the non vaccer crowd. they send info to new parents with a scull and cross bones on the cover telling them to not vaccinate their . I will keep an eye out.
Yes please keep an eye open for anything related to sterilization because a lot of people down here are superstitious (not so much antivaxers with an agenda) but just leery of anything the government says or does and with reason see all the ulterior motives our government always has. Our government killed all those students in two different mass massacres so the people are leery.
Juan, please be careful in your word choices here. Doc doesn't work for you. Doc is, as I know has already been pointed out, a Physician. He cannot, in any capacity tell you that the sterilization rumor is nonsense, because there is currently no medical advice to support that, nor is there any evidence that it even is a possibility. Regardless, there is no data anywhere to indicate any such thing, in any way. These are rumors started by unknown people for unknown reasons. This thread is for facts. "I heard" or "I read" or "somebody told me" somewhere type things are not facts. Doc has been keeping us all in the loop on this virus in a very professional way since the beginning. He works long hours under difficult conditions but still finds time to help the rest of us out with pertinent, timely, accurate, and useful information as he gets it. It's not my place, but I will ask anyway, please don't put burdens on him, he has enough.
After raising six kids through this house, I would be really ok if sterilization was a side effect, ;) it isn't that I am aware of. :)
If my 36 hrs of feeling kinda crappy after round two was my cost to get to a societal herd immunity level that well,..... lets us not have to wear silly ineffective face gear that makes my ears look funny in public....or lets all the kids go back to school and do normal kid things.....or lets us go sit in stadium with 92,000 faithfully optimistic college football fans this fall ....or lets our office manager go watch her grandson at the state wrestling tournament without being afraid of who is sitting next to her... If it gets us back to our normal free and very blessed way of life, it was way worth it, and I will willingly do it again.
I see the benefits of many different types of vaccination programs every day, (animal and human) their goal is to help us, by and large they do.
Why COVID Vaccines are Falsely Linked to Infertility (https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210112/why-covid-vaccines-are-falsely-linked-to-infertility)
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 17, 2021, 10:58:28 PMJuan, please be careful in your word choices here. Doc doesn't work for you. Doc is, as I know has already been pointed out, a Physician. He cannot, in any capacity tell you that the sterilization rumor is nonsense, because there is currently no medical advice to support that, nor is there any evidence that it even is a possibility. Regardless, there is no data anywhere to indicate any such thing, in any way. These are rumors started by unknown people for unknown reasons. This thread is for facts. "I heard" or "I read" or "somebody told me" somewhere type things are not facts. Doc has been keeping us all in the loop on this virus in a very professional way since the beginning. He works long hours under difficult conditions but still finds time to help the rest of us out with pertinent, timely, accurate, and useful information as he gets it. It's not my place, but I will ask anyway, please don't put burdens on him, he has enough.
Good morning Old Greenhorn,
My apology if it came off that I ever thought Doc worked for me. I honestly and humbly do not know how my post would ever suggest I felt that way, but I will try to be cautious of such sensitive misunderstandings regardless of what side of the post those misunderstandings are on.
As for whether the sterilization or fertility rumors are true or false, I do not know, thats why I was asking Doc (a front line worker) who was sharing their firsthand experience and knowledge on what they have seen or know to be the facts. Doc has a good grasp on medical issue and basic virus foundations from what I have seen him post. His explanations on how vaccines work was detailed and therefore I figured he might know if there was a component that caused fertility issues as its a major concern to a lot of people down here.
I'm only looking for facts and posting links or screen shots of official COVID news or stories that I think are relevant to the discussions.
I personally will not be eligible for the vaccine for some time but when that time comes I have to weigh the benefits of getting it (and the side effects) or taking my chances with getting the actual virus.
Thank you for your post.
No problem, its takes a little while to find your way here and figure out what is what and who is who. I am still working on it after 3 years.
If you read back through this whole thread and some of the others on the virus, you may learn more.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 18, 2021, 04:08:16 AM
Why COVID Vaccines are Falsely Linked to Infertility (https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210112/why-covid-vaccines-are-falsely-linked-to-infertility)
Thank You Doc, I had already read that very WebMD article the other day and to be honest with you (and with no disrespect intended to you personally) the article seemed to come off as propaganda, at least to me. Why was that,
I caught myself reading between the lines and seeing the
facts in how 60% of well educated, well trained and experienced front line medical workers were refusing the vaccine due to fertility concerns.
That is a lot of smart people questioning the vaccine. Regardless of the fertility issues being true or not (which we do not know at this time),
the fact 60% of smart people across one state alone (Ohio) refusing the vaccine is a rather large and factual number that I simply couldn't dismiss.
Also in the same article they mentioned the German epidemiologist named Wolfgang Wodarg who is a well respected specialist who teamed up with another expert and former Pfizer employee and the two of them went on,
Quote:
"to ask the European Medicines Agency (the European Union counterpart to the FDA) to delay the study and approval of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. One of their concerns was a protein called syncytin-1, which shares similar genetic instructions with part of the spike of the new coronavirus (https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus). That same protein is an important component of the placenta in mammals. If the vaccine causes the body to make antibodies against syncytin-1, they argued, it might also cause the body to attack and reject the protein in the human placenta (https://www.webmd.com/baby/should-i-eat-my-placenta), making women infertile." The article seemed to me, to spent a lot of time dismissing all of these people and the icing on the cake was what they said in detail about the movie "Utopia" which as we all know many movies like this are based on realities we just don't want to accept. When reading about the movie "Utopia", I couldn't help remember hearing Bill Gates saying in the now repeated video how the vaccine was going to really help us in terms of population control. Was that a Freudian slip on Mr Gates part, we may never know as its a rhetorical question
The article just left me more questions than answers. Again thank you so much for posting all you have and I look forward to reading more.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 18, 2021, 10:22:11 AM
No problem, its takes a little while to find your way here and figure out what is what and who is who. I am still working on it after 3 years.
If you read back through this whole thread and some of the others on the virus, you may learn more.
Thank you for the response. I have read through this thread and other articles on COVID. I love all the great information and links others are providing here as well.
All we can do is work together to to post what we know are facts, raise questions on what we are concerned with and hope others like Doc who have such vast experience can answer our questions without it becoming too much of a burden on him. I'm sure when he started this thread, he never imagined it would reach almost 100 pages.
I hope Doc is strong enough to go another 100 pages.
Quote from: Tristen on February 17, 2021, 07:42:34 PM
... It is hard to weigh the risk vaccine v/s covid if we don't have good numbers on the side effects of the vaccine. ...
If you go way back in this topic to post #1335 on page 67, you'll find a link to the Pfizer monograph for their vaccine. There is a lot of information in there, including the most common side effects (starting on page 11).
The information includes the frequency of each side effect after the first and second doses (in both the placebo group and the vaccinated group); it has two sets of tables, one for age 55 and under, and one for over 55's; and it gives the frequency of severe reactions as well as "ordinary" reactions.
Generally speaking, you're more likely to experience one of the side effects after the second dose (which is good), and those of us over 55 are less likely to experience side effects than younger folk ;D.
I prefer to disregard when one expert comes out against something, because he's an expert and knows better than 10,000 other experts. Why take his word on an issue over the 10,000 others that disagree. It's like looking for reviews on a product you're thinking of buying and deciding not to buy it because one person had a bad experience. Very often you see the bad review, but then the good reviews say not to listen to the bad review, because that person had clearly not read the instructions.
The only way I see for millions of humans to come out of this pandemic alive is for many more millions to get the vaccine. A person can choose not to get vaccinated. That's their right and I respect it, but if in a year or two we are out of the pandemic, it's because of the vaccine and no other reason.
so the level of education that would make someone an expert, is well above my pay grade. I would re-read the article, and it explains where this went off the rails. I have a general idea of how viruses and the immune system works. It is great that someone recognized the similar sequences and considered it... but those folks deem it theoretically very unlikely and virtually impossible. The majority of front line workers are more trained to do stuff. I have told many nurses I work with, to their faces (with a smile on mine) that they are all just moms that know how to start IVs. So they know better but when their kid is sick with a cold, they still want an antibiotic. It takes years to really brainwash a person to the point of making them irritating. :) . The sequence would have to result in a protein that after all the things that make a long string of amino acids coil up into a ball that then still looks close enough to the other protein, that an antibody made for the virus can attack, the placenta. There are unintended consequences even in nature. like getting cold and the immune response in some people will cause the pancreas to be damaged causing type 1 diabetes in kids. It is sad, and makes us vulnerable that we know so little since this is a new virus. People do not know what to believe, and go with an emotional response. So I guess if we thought that the virus caused infertility, would everyone start wearing masks and socially distancing. I have no concerns about this, and if I am wrong, it will be over 1 in a million. what is the death rate of the virus? I think the odds favor getting the vaccine. It is like not wanting to drive, cause the airbag might spontaneously deploy. In ten years we can look back and see what is what.
The "fact" I get from the 60% not taking the vaccine, is that front line workers are also susceptible to propaganda despite their level of education, and sadly a small percent of them may be dead or permanently harmed from this disinformation. so the 60% number is a fact, that does not make the infertility thing a fact.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 18, 2021, 03:38:58 PM
so the level of education that would make someone an expert, is well above my pay grade. I would re-read the article, and it explains where this went off the rails. I have a general idea of how viruses and the immune system works. It is great that someone recognized the similar sequences and considered it... but those folks deem it theoretically very unlikely and virtually impossible. The majority of front line workers are more trained to do stuff. I have told many nurses I work with, to their faces (with a smile on mine) that they are all just moms that know how to start IVs. So they know better but when their kid is sick with a cold, they still want an antibiotic. It takes years to really brainwash a person to the point of making them irritating. :) . The sequence would have to result in a protein that after all the things that make a long string of amino acids coil up into a ball that then still looks close enough to the other protein, that an antibody made for the virus can attack, the placenta. There are unintended consequences even in nature. like getting cold and the immune response in some people will cause the pancreas to be damaged causing type 1 diabetes in kids. It is sad, and makes us vulnerable that we know so little since this is a new virus. People do not know what to believe, and go with an emotional response. So I guess if we thought that the virus caused infertility, would everyone start wearing masks and socially distancing. I have no concerns about this, and if I am wrong, it will be over 1 in a million. what is the death rate of the virus? I think the odds favor getting the vaccine. It is like not wanting to drive, cause the airbag might spontaneously deploy. In ten years we can look back and see what is what.
Let me try to address your post in order.
In regards to that specific article only. I have reread it 3 times now and still come to the same conclusion. I understand where you say it went off the rails. Where they claim its theoretically impossible due to the different genetic codes. But yet further down they say its still possible because they do not yet know. As the old saying goes thats learned in college, a theory is still just a theory until its proven or dis-proven.
Quote from the article:
Even Wodarg, in his petition, writes "there is no indication whether antibodies against spike proteins of SARS viruses would also act like anti-Syncytin-1 antibodies. Offit admits that we don't have all the long-term safety data we'd like on the vaccines." So they give us this long article stating why its basically impossible for the vaccine to cause infertility then add a disclaimer near the end that they do not have all the safety data on the vaccines so anything is possible. Thats why I said it came off as propaganda to me. Again I'm only referring to this particular article.
I'm of the personal belief at this time that the vaccine does not cause infertility, but in time we will see if either of us is right. It wont mater to either of us as we are past having children and I only brought it up because so many people down here think it does.
You said:
"The majority of front line workers are more trained to do stuff. I have told many nurses I work with, to their faces (with a smile on mine) that they are all just moms that know how to start IVs."Down here even in the rural pueblos we have small rural clinics and los enfermeros (Nurses) that work them are all very well respected. They are required to attend what is called reoccurring training several times throughout the year so they are up to date on everything from bacterial infections, disease, treatment, basic medications, hygiene, delivering babies and so much more. They have to be able to stand in when there is no rural Doctor available. It sounds like our rural nurses are better educated in medical practices than yours. One day I will go over to our rural clinic and take a few pictures to show you what our rural clinics look like inside and out. I think you will be impressed with how modern and equipped they are for being out in the middle of nowhere. I'm adding that to my things to do list.
On a side note, if anyone here was ever to tell one of our nurses that all they were was a mom who knew how to put in an IV (even in a joking manner) if the Cartel guys heard of it, they would pick that person up, pistol whip them breaking their jaw and then asking them who needs a nurse now. The one thing you never do in these rural areas is talk down to or disrespect others, especially a teacher or a nurse and not expect the consequences.
Like you said, in ten years we can look back and see what is what but Id like to keep researching to find out sooner rather than later. I'm not one to go with emotions but rather facts and information backed up with data.
thanks for your response, I look forward in sharing the pictures of our rural clinic with you soon.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 18, 2021, 04:05:02 PM
The "fact" I get from the 60% not taking the vaccine, is that front line workers are also susceptible to propaganda despite their level of education, and sadly a small percent of them may be dead or permanently harmed from this disinformation. so the 60% number is a fact, that does not make the infertility thing a fact.
I think the propaganda thing can work both ways and we are all susceptible to it to a degree. I made it clear that regardless of the fertility issue I just thought it was rather a very high number of 60% who refused for personal reasons. We can argue (figuratively speaking) It either means the propaganda is really working or or we have a lot of self thinking people. Time will indicate which one we have.
As for permanent harm or death from the disinformation, well thats on them for making such personal choices based on personal beliefs. Statistically I think these 60% nurses we are talking about have a much higher chance of dying in a car accident on the way to work than of the actual virus if in fact COVID has a 98% survival rate.
WOW.
THIS topic is being turned into something it is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE. KNOCK IT OFF. Who am I talking to? Anyone that can look within themself, and then ask, Self... do I really want to come in here and try to debate this with Jeff, lose, then end up getting a forbidden warning emblazoned across my browser when I try to access any of the Forestry Forum?
Quote from: doc henderson on February 18, 2021, 09:21:37 PM
WOW.
That's the level of misinformation that this thread is trying to counter. The whole "Alternative facts" sort of narrative. Where one internet post by an "expert" is suddenly taken as the truth.
It's frustrating. Vaccinations started today in NZ, with the Health Dept workers that are going to be giving shots to the Border and Quarantine workers giving each other the first doses.
The numbers of people willing to take the vaccine can be skewed by how you ask the question?
"Will you be first in line to get the jab"? will give a very different answer to "Will you get the shots later one once a few other people have?" Most of the 60% that said No to the first question will line up for the 2nd option. A bit like no one wants to the first wildebeest that crosses the possibly crocodile infested river. Once the first bunch get across safely there is a stampede. :D
This I can understand, especially with the disinformation that's been going on, and is a common response locally. "Yeah, I'll get the jab, I just don't want to be first". The first group getting the jab are Health Dept, military etc that probably have it in their employment contract.
They've been working for a year trying to keep the virus out, so them being vaccinated can only make their job easier, and the rest of us safer until the main vaccine roll-out gets done over the rest of the year.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on February 18, 2021, 02:13:09 PM
I prefer to disregard when one expert comes out against something, because he's an expert and knows better than 10,000 other experts. Why take his word on an issue over the 10,000 others that disagree. It's like looking for reviews on a product you're thinking of buying and deciding not to buy it because one person had a bad experience. Very often you see the bad review, but then the good reviews say not to listen to the bad review, because that person had clearly not read the instructions.
The only way I see for millions of humans to come out of this pandemic alive is for many more millions to get the vaccine. A person can choose not to get vaccinated. That's their right and I respect it, but if in a year or two we are out of the pandemic, it's because of the vaccine and no other reason.
I disagree with the last statement. A pandemic ends when the virus runs out of hosts.
Don't post it. Move on
Quote from: Ianab on February 19, 2021, 03:40:49 AM
Quote from: doc henderson on February 18, 2021, 09:21:37 PM
WOW.
That's the level of misinformation that this thread is trying to counter. The whole "Alternative facts" sort of narrative. Where one internet post by an "expert" is suddenly taken as the truth.
It's frustrating. Vaccinations started today in NZ, with the Health Dept workers that are going to be giving shots to the Border and Quarantine workers giving each other the first doses.
The numbers of people willing to take the vaccine can be skewed by how you ask the question?
"Will you be first in line to get the jab"? will give a very different answer to "Will you get the shots later one once a few other people have?" Most of the 60% that said No to the first question will line up for the 2nd option. A bit like no one wants to the first wildebeest that crosses the possibly crocodile infested river. Once the first bunch get across safely there is a stampede. :D
This I can understand, especially with the disinformation that's been going on, and is a common response locally. "Yeah, I'll get the jab, I just don't want to be first". The first group getting the jab are Health Dept, military etc that probably have it in their employment contract.
They've been working for a year trying to keep the virus out, so them being vaccinated can only make their job easier, and the rest of us safer until the main vaccine roll-out gets done over the rest of the year.
That 60% number was for nursing home staff. including cooks, dishwashers housekeeping etc. Around here a good number don't have papers that stand up to more than a cursory examination. And to your point that article was dated Jan 12, the vaccine was first available Dec 14.
I do not want to belabor it more. but that was the point, is that there are all different levels of understanding. And that even I as a hospital leader, getting all information, I am still not an infectious disease doc, let alone a virologist, or even more a vaccine developer. I got the vaccine on Dec. 16th. I have faith in the system. If I tended to not trust scientists or the government, or vaccines, I would have been less trusting. Our nurses all get continuing education. They are well educated and great nurses. They look to me like a dad or grandpa, and agree with my assertions. they are all smiling knowing that it is true and all in fun. I am not trying to start up more of a conversation, but to make sure no one is offended by my comments. My staff and I share a great mutual respect.
Here in Georgia the legislature is sorta working on the budget. One of the items is
$18 million in funding to replace and modernize the public health surveillance system, most notably the Georgia Registry of Immunization Transactions and Services (GRITS) which tracks vaccinations.
Yep they are replacing GRITS in Georgia.
grits in the south, is a thing. good for everyone!
Quote from: doc henderson on February 19, 2021, 04:07:31 PM
grits in the south, is a thing. good for everyone!
One of the sources I follow thinks it's long overdue. And increased funding to the local DPH. She's got a Phd in microbiology and immunology. Until recently she lived in Georgia then moved to Kansas for her husbands career. My medical training consists of binge watching several seasons of Scrubs. The writer of the WebMD article needed to fill space and resorted to PANOYA to gain the readers attention.My skepticism of that 60% number comes from decades of reading financial statements. here's one of Amber's latest posts
She's not an MD but is very good at communicating really complex concepts to a simple mind like me.
Vaccine Q&A, 12Feb2012 - Georgia COVID-19 Updates (https://amberschmidtkephd.substack.com/p/vaccine-q-and-a-12feb2012)
The state announced last night vaccination of the general population ages 50 to 64 should start in about a months time then ages 16 to 49. 8)
@Claybraker (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=19499) that looks like a great link. I have not read all of it, but seems reasonable.
My county is below a 10% positivity rate for tests for the first time since October. I'd sure like to see it less than that, but we are on the right track. When it went over 10 is when it started seeming really bad. Strange how now we are used to that and it doesn't seem so bad.
That's great for Nebraska @Nebraska (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=45256) .
My wife and I ( both over 75) got our second Pfizer shot two days ago. Wife had zero affects to shot and I had very slight headache yesterday. Today, no side affects. One month ago wife sat for two hours between two relatives that had covid and tested negative one week later. I thing she may be just immune to covid.
Some days I really regret my choice of handles. ::)
Which ones? :)
I guess Georgia, and Tennessee are gonna get what amounts to crop dusted for Covid, and other states to follow.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210115005574/en/EPA-Awards-Section-18-Public-Health-Emergency-Exemption-to-Grignard-Pure%E2%84%A2-For-First-Antimicrobial-Air-Treatment-Solution-Proven-Effective-Against-COVID-19
""Today, we are approving the first-ever airborne antiviral product that will help fight the spread of the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19," said EPA Administrator Andrew Wheeler. "There is no higher priority for EPA than protecting the health and safety of Americans and I want to thank those – both within EPA and those outside – who have worked to achieve this important milestone.""
Wow, so much for consent.
Right. We won't make vaccine mandatory, but we can force everyone to breathe a chemical that kills microbes. Most things that kill microbes aren't good for breathing either.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on February 20, 2021, 03:15:39 PM
Right. We won't make vaccine mandatory, but we can force everyone to breathe a chemical that kills microbes. Most things that kill microbes aren't good for breathing either.
It will certainly be interesting to see how this unfolds. I doubt too many folks in either Georgia, or Tennessee are aware of this. Honestly, I worry about people having panic attacks; I'd think it will be a very vapor 'thick' type of spray, which could cause concern, and other emotions to come forth from those caught unaware.
Those are just the 2 roll out states, and looks like in short order other states will follow suit.
I did read that it is only for use in specific indoor areas and must be posted at points of entry to let people know it may be in use. We have our fire stations sprayed every few weeks by a mitigation company. It is a citrus based product that smells pretty strong for a while.
I'm glad you clarified that ffots. Indoor is one thing, and if there are signs and notifications it starts to seem a little more ok. But still a bit concerning without knowing specifics.
When I first saw "airborne" i went right to "sprayed from airplanes"! I guess I had an Art Bell flashback. :D CHEMTRAILS!! electricuted-smiley electricuted-smiley air_plane
I just got an appointment to get the Pfizer shot next week. My wife got her second dose yesterday. So far no side effects. Future DIL got a case of Covid arm with her second dose.
That was what I imagined at first too @btulloh (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962) until I googled some other info about it.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on February 20, 2021, 05:53:19 PM
I did read that it is only for use in specific indoor areas and must be posted at points of entry to let people know it may be in use. We have our fire stations sprayed every few weeks by a mitigation company. It is a citrus based product that smells pretty strong for a while.
They list off just about every space you could think of. This will be used a lot on most buildings, and I think they said transportation.
Transportation, food processing, restaurants, govt buildings, etc. Just read an article the other day that medical care facilities are actually moving away from using anti-microbial surfaces due to unforeseen consequences of their use.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 19, 2021, 12:05:12 PM
I have faith in the system. If I tended to not trust scientists or the government, or vaccines, I would have been less trusting.
Doc, your influence is what convinced me to get the vaccine when it was available to me.
If this pandemic has only taught me one thing, it's that I can find "evidence" on the internet to believe anything I want to believe. :)
NZ's latest outbreak seems to have been shut down with minimal disruption.
This is a run down of what we know so far, and how the trace and isolate works. The exact source of the infection isn't known for sure, but one of the first cases worked for an airline catering company. Not air-side at the airport, but back in the depot doing laundry and prepping meals, so considered low risk, but was still in the companies routine testing process. No other cases found at the workplace (they all got an extra test)
Anyway they, and 2 other family members came down with symptoms, got tested and quarantined. Before becoming symptomatic they have travelled to my province, and been to work / school normally. So the Health Dept publishes a list off all the places they have visited, what the risk level was, and what you need to do depending on the exposure risk.
Isolate and Get tested ASAP
Get tested if you have symptoms.
Etc.
Country goes to Level 2 that night, and Auckland city to Level 3, with only essential travel in or out. This is because the source of the infection isn't known, so there could be 10 more cases wandering around undetected. The drive in testing stations open up again.
Now as it turns out, the teenager did pass the virus on to one classmate (The whole school was tested over 2 days), and they then passed it on to a younger brother and a parent. So I think that settles the "Can teenagers spread the virus?" argument, they can. That positive result meant test and isolate all that families close contacts, but no further spread has been found. All the positive samples are genetically tested by the next day to confirm they are the same strain, hence chain of infection, and to try and match it back to a case found in quarantine (to check for "leaks" there). The higher alert was cancelled after 3 days after no more "random" cases were found.
While the virus seems to be mostly spread by airborne droplets or direct contact, NZ is picking up the "weird" transmissions. Ones like the only link they can find is an elevator or rubbish bin used at different times. Hence looking at the link between the airport and the first case. Those unusual transmissions would get lost in the noise of 100 other cases when the virus is out of control
Like I said earlier, the trace / test / isolate only works if you have a handful of cases. Once you get 100s every day it's impossible.
Quote from: btulloh on February 20, 2021, 06:14:22 PMI'm glad you clarified that ffots. Indoor is one thing, and if there are signs and notifications it starts to seem a little more ok. But still a bit concerning without knowing specifics
I'd also want to dig a bit deeper to find out what they are actually spraying. I mean there a "mostly harmless" things like sunshine, soap or alcohol that will destroy the virus. Probably don't want to be spaying those around everywhere though. But who knows, maybe they have found dilute citric acid knocks out the virus, so it's actually a high tech lemon juice dispenser? I haven't dug deeper to find out
I'm sharing this comment FYI, and NOT! to discourage anyone from getting vaccinated.
My wife & I got our 2nd doses of the Moderna Covid vaccine on Friday this week at noonish. We then did a Walmart run afterwards since we were in a town and went home, loaded the MULE with our groceries as my house is basically snowed and iced in for regular 4x4 vehicles. FWIW, my neighbor a state cop who's on the road daily has a short flat driveway but isn't using it right now-yep it's bad ice wise.
The night of our vaccinations we both experienced fever and body aches. In my own case I barely slept as I was unable to find any position that allowed me to sleep. I almost never have headaches but had a whing dinger along with much joint pain and general weakness. Neat day on Saturday a.m. I had 101 fever and spent over half of yeasterday in a chair reading or sleeping. By mid-afternoon I had an appetite back and slept normal last note.
My wife's experience was milder(she is 5.5 yrs younger and doesn't have the arthritis that I have) and she felt better pretty quickly. After our first shots we barely noticed any after effects. The nurse who gave the shots to us both at the same time & room said the dose is identical to the first one.
My purpose here is to suggest that you might want to make allowance for possible after effects if you'll be driving, working, etc., after your vaccination.
My wife (Home Health Nurse) finally got her first last week, Moderna, .I got my first Thur. ,Pfizer, No side effects . We shall see ,what we shall see , on the second ::). Have to admit was glad we got the call .
FWIW, I have never had a reaction to anything of any kind prior to this 2nd covid reaction-we are happy indeed to have the 2nd dose, no matter what I've said.
My heart doc tried, some years ago, to raise my HDL level using Niacin and I got a classic, very bad reaction, otherwise nada to anything.
Believe me, I didn't feel worth a crap most of yesterday!
An e.g.- the trees and snow and ice are beautiful on our land and we'd planned to cruise the woods in our MULE yesterday while the sun was shining for the first time in well over a week and I cancelled out.
It's definitely a good idea to be prepared to have to take a day off or two after a dose. My wife had planned for that and didn't schedule patients for the day after her shots. Luckily for her, she had no bad side effects and went to work after both doses.
PatD and I got our second stick of Moderna this afternoon. We shall see.....or not. ???
Hopefully you shall see not much.
I got Dose 1 and my arm was mildly sore for 24 hours - for which I was glad ?
I figure it meant my immune system was working - imho. So I am hoping that in a little less than two weeks dose 2 will give me a kinda mild reaction - again cause I believe that means my immune system is working on building those anti-( gens / bodies / whatever it takes to lick cv19 ).
Facts - hrmmph
Couple decades back I heard and liked " trust but verify " . For the internet I believe in don't trust but verify - alot - then maybe .
NZ - seems like tracing may be mostly working ( very good for them ) and I think isolating sick people is really good . And FL's protecting the elderly is a good idea too .
Aerosol transmission may have been played down. Apparently, just masking, distancing and contact of droplets and ignoring aerosolized transmission in the message is not based on evidence. You really don't want to be in a waiting room with infected people for very long. And I sure would not want to be on an aeroplane. First because of risk of infection and second because of new travel rules starting today, when coming into Canada on a flight.
Experts push CDC, White House to address COVID-19 aerosol spread | CIDRAP (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/02/experts-push-cdc-white-house-address-covid-19-aerosol-spread)
Wife and I just got our first dose 2 hours ago. Phizer so we go back in 3 weeks for 2nd dose. Very well organized in our city owned Freight Depot used for special events and such. They plan to shoot 400 doses per day for next three days which is a lot for our little county. I don't know if my left arm is sore or just my imagination so sure can't be much yet if it is.
We took our yellow shot record and got the nurse to record it in there. Seems we are the first one to do that and sort of threw her for a loop. They also gave out a little blue card but you'd think they'd use the standard international shot record that has been around for many, many years.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 22, 2021, 01:04:34 PMyou'd think they'd use the standard international shot record that has been around for many, many years.
I've got one shot record dated Sept 79. Another dated 1981 when the unit was going to Germany for an exercise. According to it I got vaccinated for plaque. Proof that vaccines work. In 40 years I haven't had plaque once.
I am glad you didn't get the plague. Most of the diseases I never got I could not even pronounce and had never heard of.
When I was working overseas I think I got shots for everything but the mange and not sure I didn't get it. I think I had 3 or 4 different shot records and finally our company nurse consolidated them all into one and removed the ones that were out of date. If you did not have your shot record with you when you got a shot you got a new record.
I tried to get a rabies vaccination one time when i was in the USMC because back then I was bad to catch coons and other wild animals and another time when I started work in Africa. They would not give it to me because I was working in the home office and they only gave it to the folks on the pipeline in Africa where they were more likely to get bitten by a monkey or such. They said if someone got bit they still had to take the shots but the vaccine bought them some time till they could get back to a more civilized region. Yellow fever was the main requirement you had to have to visit most of Africa. It was good for 10 years as I remember. If you did not have your record with you they would just give you another shot there in the airport.
Howard, you said they gave you a shot in the "airport"................ so is that your bum? :o 8) :D :D :D
I think it was an international airport in Africa one time, probably Douala, Cameroon.
I remember getting a tetanus shot in the butt bent over the hood of a car on Christmas Day when I was 7 y/o and had been cut by a wild hog across the R. knee while visiting at my grandfather's home in Dixie County. There was no thoughts or attempts to preserve my dignity. We were at the doctor's house where he was and he was drunk at a Christmas party they were having so he got his nurse to give me the shot. They decided not to sew up the cuts and just wiped them good with iodine as I remember which hurt more than the shot. I don't remember if they steri-stripped them shut or not.
Anyway, you can see what such abuse at a pivotal moment in my young life by members of your chose profession has done to me. (And I see the abuse continues. :D Now about that missing ring...)
Howard, I think your disposition was destined at a very young age, unrelated to your clinical experience. I diagnosed lots of otitis media on the gravel road in front of my house on the weekends, If I knew they were coming, carried the otoscope in my back pocket. called in the script and it was ready before they got there.``
An ear infection was one of the worst things I've ever endured. I had never had one until I married an audiologist. I think she liked it. Man did that ear hurt.
I've had two doses of a 3 dose regimen for Anthrax vaccine. I sure hope I don't get it before my last dose. That would be bad luck.
Quote from: Magicman on February 21, 2021, 04:09:04 PMPatD and I got our second stick of Moderna this afternoon. We shall see.....or not.
Don't know whether they are associated or not but PatD's wrist are hurting today, but nothing else. I have no pain anywhere but I just don't feel too spiffy today. My lymph nodes below my jaw are a bit tender. Both of us have a sore arm but neither of us have any fever.
Had to go to summer camp in southern Missouri for forestry. We had to have a Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever shot. Worse, Shot, Of, My, Life.
I remember getting vaccinated when I went into USMC. They gave you shots in both arms with the air guns. They'd mess you up for a week. The fist several days one arm was sore and about the time it got almost back to normal the other one would start itching from the smallpox vaccine and that lasted several more says. Of course along about that time you were so sore and no rest from the rest of the training you hardly noticed anyway.
My wife and I have gotten the first hand opportunity for a direct comparison between the Covid vaccine and Covid itself. We are some of the unlucky ones who got the virus between vaccines doses. Actually, we probably had the virus when we got the vaccine shot, but it was still too early to show symptoms. Poor timing on our part.
The vaccine was unpleasant the next day.
Covid has been unpleasant for both of us for almost a week, so far. We seem to be doing OK considering, with mild to moderate symptoms and ebbing back yesterday to mild. But take it from me, the vaccine discomfort is not in the same league as the disease itself, at least for us.
Anyway. We had an infected pre symptomatic person in a small group, who had not had a vaccine. My wife and I had not had a vaccine. Two other people in the group had the vaccine, one of which was my 80 year old, high risk mother. The other had the virus several months ago and still has a currently strong antibody presence.
So, six people, two of which were vaccinated, one with immunity, and three not vaccinated. ALL three unvaccinated persons are currently Covid positive, and working through the illness. ALL three of the protected persons have been tested as Covid free. That's pretty easy math in the six person unintended Yellowhammer trial.
Me - Unvaccinated - currently Covid positive
My Wife - unvaccinated - currently Covid positive
My oldest daughter - unvaccinated - Currently Covid positive
My mom - vaccinated - not infected
My Stepson - vaccinated - not infected
My youngest daughter - strong anybodies from former Covid - not infected.
Draw your own conclusion as to the effectiveness of the vaccine and the contagious nature of Covid. And yes, we let our guard down for an instant, and are paying for it.
.
Hope everyone gets back on their feet quickly there YH.
God speed!
YellowHammer, my heart goes out to you and hoping for an ultimately good outcome for you.
It seems so unfair that this would happen because you've spent almost a year now being a model for how to conduct a business and stay in covid compliance.
Virtual hugs.
Quote from: Roxie on February 23, 2021, 05:08:11 AM
It seems so unfair that this would happen because you've spent almost a year now being a model for how to conduct a business and stay in covid compliance.
Thanks, the only consolation we have is that we are very happy about the high levels of the precautions we took for our business and customers and how it successfully protected our business customers from any possibility of getting it. We are certain that absolutely none of our customers were exposed to us and Covid at our business. We actually proactively planned the get together to occur after the last open day of the work week. So from exposure to positive tests, less than a week, we came in contact with no customers. We took, what we thought were reasonable precautions at our get together, but they were insufficient. However, the precautions we took to protect our customers, (by appointment only, on Friday's and Saturday's) actually worked perfectly, as we were completely isolated during the time period from exposure to positive test. We are happy about that.
This simply follows our philosophy to provide a safe shopping environment for our customers. Our business precautions worked and we are very pleased we did not put any customers at risk.
I was a bit "uneasy" last evening and began noticing a soreness behind both eyes. That and with the lymph node soreness, I gave up and went to bed at ~9:00 last night.
This morning all is good. The eyes and the lymph node soreness is gone. PatD's wrist are also OK this morning. Both of our arms are still a bit sore but not as much as yesterday. All is good.
Quote from: YellowHammer on February 22, 2021, 10:29:09 PM
My wife and I have gotten the first hand opportunity for a direct comparison between the Covid vaccine and Covid itself. We are some of the unlucky ones who got the virus between vaccines doses. Actually, we probably had the virus when we got the vaccine shot, but it was still too early to show symptoms. Poor timing on our part.
The vaccine was unpleasant the next day.
Covid has been unpleasant for both of us for almost a week, so far. We seem to be doing OK considering, with mild to moderate symptoms and ebbing back yesterday to mild. But take it from me, the vaccine discomfort is not in the same league as the disease itself, at least for us.
Anyway. We had an infected pre symptomatic person in a small group, who had not had a vaccine. My wife and I had not had a vaccine. Two other people in the group had the vaccine, one of which was my 80 year old, high risk mother. The other had the virus several months ago and still has a currently strong antibody presence.
So, six people, two of which were vaccinated, one with immunity, and three not vaccinated. ALL three unvaccinated persons are currently Covid positive, and working through the illness. ALL three of the protected persons have been tested as Covid free. That's pretty easy math in the six person unintended Yellowhammer trial.
Me - Unvaccinated - currently Covid positive
My Wife - unvaccinated - currently Covid positive
My oldest daughter - unvaccinated - Currently Covid positive
My mom - vaccinated - not infected
My Stepson - vaccinated - not infected
My youngest daughter - strong anybodies from former Covid - not infected.
Draw your own conclusion as to the effectiveness of the vaccine and the contagious nature of Covid. And yes, we let our guard down for an instant, and are paying for it.
A man!, Well I am hoping you get through this as gently as possible. I will be thinking about you, keep us all in the loop, will ya?
Hang in there, sorry that worked out that way. ::) nothing like lousy luck. I hope by Fourth of July this issue fading into the rear view mirror. Wishing you guys a speedy recovery.
Sorry about the bad luck, YH. You weren't the first nor will you be the last to get the vaccine while positive for Covid without knowing it. Get well soon.
When I made Reply #2024 this morning, I had no idea that I would do anything today, much less saw!! So I gave the vaccine a run for it's money and I guess that I came out ahead. Well at least I did not conk out on the sawdust. ::)
Hope you and your wife have a speedy recovery YellowHammer. Still can't find an open appointment for my wife and I in our area. All I am seeing is check back in April.
I don't know what Fauci is talking about, in Idaho, they never shutdown, and most of Eastern Washington is back open, but I guess batten down the hatches...
https://www.theblaze.com/news/fauci-vaccinated-people-cannot-dine-indoors
""So there are things, even if you're vaccinated, that you're not going to be able to do in society: for example, indoor dining, theaters, places where people congregate," Fauci said.
"That's because of the safety of society. You, yourself, what you can do when you are together with another person, we are looking at that, and we're going to try and find out very quickly what recommendations could be made about what people can do," he added. "
less than 50% of the article.
A little update and maybe some useful information.
First, the Covid isn't fun. I'm down 13 lbs body weight, but not doing bad. The symptoms we have are like a common cold x 10, that just linger. I do have a case of the Covid tongue, which feels like I've licked the lint trap in the clothes dryer. It's a fuzzy feeling reaction people sometimes get when the virus replicates on a persons tongue. I got out of breath and tired walking a few hundred yards to the barn today, but at least I felt good enough to go outside in many days.
My wife was not doing as well, some deep coughing yesterday, getting us worried, and her doctor got her into the Huntsville Hospital Covid Monoclonal Antibody Infusion Center. It is specifically authorized for mild to moderate Covid patients, before they get seriously ill, of a certain age or pre-existing condition, and involves infusing man made antibodies directly into the patient to aid the antibodies being produced but of insufficient quantities by the patient. There is a certain window in time in which they must be introduced, and in some patients, reduce the progression of the disease and subsequent hospitalizations significantly. The nurses said that most people see a remarkable rebound within 48 hours, although sometimes as little as a day. My wife, who was getting worse, had them infused into her arm during a 45 minute IV session yesterday morning, and remarkably, was feeling significantly better already today. Amazing. The drug is called bamlanivimab.
In our case, it worked well and quickly. I made a comment to the nurse about how she must be glad she is young and doesn't have to deal with this garbage, how Covid would "just bounce off her" and she said in June she almost died from it. She was doing OK, but about the 7th day, her O2 levels dropped suddenly, she spent 3 days in ICU during which she underwent respiratory arrest, had no prexisting condition she was aware of, and was only 26 years old. She is fine now
Thanks for the update YH.
Scary how the unknown creeps in and can affect any of us so quickly.
Take care of Martha, and yourself too of course!
Best wishes from Canada.
Oh, I forgot about the vaccines we got. Wal Mart in this area offers them, (soon to be nation wide) and I couldn't ever get an appointment though their online appointment scheduler, because it was always full.
So here's a tip----thats where I learned they reset and open their next round of daily appointments every midnight by computer. So we set our alarm for 11:55 PM, fired up our iPad, and by 12:05 AM we both had appointments scheduled.
I am surprised with this "Check back in April" kind of comment. I'd have thought they'd just put you on the list for the next available slot based on your reported age and health issues to determine which group/priority you were in. I don't know how they are running their appointments or such but our state gives us the option of signing up on line or calling an 800 type number and either way they put you on the list. I signed up on line then my wife called hers in right after and within a couple weeks we got a call and set up our appointment for yesterday and they said we have the same time 3 weeks out for the second dose but also said they would call. I usually hate state level and above politicians but I have been well satisfied with what I have seen here so far. (I can't believe I actually said that. ;)) Actually as I understand we are now in the "Anybody in the state can call in and get on the list".
glad you guys are hanging in there. the monoclonal antibody is directed against the spike, that is needed to attach to cells for replication. so it needs to be done in the first 10 days as the virus is replicating. My wife works for Walmart, and she is having meetings about the vaccine, but they do not have enough everywhere. supposed to start here in 2 weeks now, as of the meeting this am. Many recommend to wait 90 days after you have the virus or monoclonal antibodies before getting the vaccine. good luck!
I guess one of the vaccines, (Pfizer) plans to now dispense 15 doses per vial. I fear so many routes are being developed, and in the end, there will be people signed up at 3 places. I guess in the end, if there is some waste, at least all will be vaccinated. at least the ones who want it.
Here in MN my wife and I, both over 75 were notified about two weeks ago that we were approved to schedule an appointment but after going thru a lengthy bunch of questions the answer always came up "no appointments available." On last Wednesday when my wife had an INR check at our clinic and on the (please don't say I told you) advice from a nurse we went up to the floor where they give the shots and were told they were all booked up for two weeks. Over the weekend there was a news story that MN shipment of vaccine had been lost and then later found in Memphis and was redirected to St. Paul where the National Guard distributed it to outstate locations. So on this Monday I went thru the lengthy questions again and surprise, all kinds of appointments came up at many locations. And best of all we got in today (Wednesday) and are now getting ready to go. Hooray!
I called a friend that is the same age as I and he already turned down the shot. He did not have a good reason, just said he also did not like to get flu shots either. I'm going to have to work on him a bit as he is also scheduled for a knee replacement in March.
My parents got their second dose today. I'm very happy about that, but I've seen a lot lately that the second dose is actually not adding much more protection than the first dose afforded. This week dad and I will run the mill together without masks for the first time since early summer. Well, let me qualify that statement. Dad will be without a mask as he stands back while I'm cutting. I will go back to wearing my respirator with exhalation valve while cutting.
Again, I would point to Yellowhammer Trial as to the effectiveness of the vaccine and the contagious nature of the disease. Its a small non clinical trial, but I think makes a clear statement.
My oldest daughter (30 years old) is recovering with no ill effects, still coughing some, but she was up and eating ice cream when we called her yesterday.
My wife (55 years old) is still doing better today than yesterday, as am I. A note about her. She is possibly the healthiest person I've ever known. She has never caught the flu, never even taken flu shots. I can't remember the last time she's even had a sinus infection, much less any other type of illness. Her blood panels are prefect, her blood pressure is perfect, but she did have a cancer scare a couple years ago, but it wasn't a problem, knock on wood. We used to joke, obviously in poor taste, that if the zombie virus ever attacked, she would be the only survivor in the world. She has the immune system of Superwoman. However, this unpredictable virus hit her hard, much worse than me and we are thankful that her doctor got her the monoclonal antibody treatment, which stopped it in its tracks. She is still coughing, very tired, but so far so good. Just saying, this virus is like a lottery ticket. From my aunt who died from it, my neighbor down the road who said "it was the sickest he'd ever been in his life," to my nephew in law who suffers from permanent lung damage, to my youngest daughter, who was purely asymptomatic except for complete loss of taste and said "It was no big deal for her."
You spin the wheel, you take your chances.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 24, 2021, 11:05:57 AM
Many recommend to wait 90 days after you have the virus or monoclonal antibodies before getting the vaccine. good luck!
Thanks, Doc I appreciate it. With you being on the front lines, I really, really, (yes I said it twice) thank you for providing valuable input on this topic. Salute!
nothing but best wishes for you and your family. Salute back at ya!
Robert, I hope and pray that you and Martha as well as your children rebound with all deliberate speed with no long-term problems. I know at least a dozen who are infected right now. Some are having a hard time. I am in quarantine as of this morning.
Caveman, thanks, and I hope you dodge it, or if you do get it, its a non event.
Why are normal health care channels not able to obtain any doses of the vaccine? Seems more logical than a parking lot.
I think as there is not enough, it is distributed via health departments and government affiliated clinics. If it becomes a recurring annual shot, it should get easier.
Got our second dose of Moderna vaccine this morning. Time will tell...
So here is a nice little fact about the distribution of the covid vaccine.
In the state of Illinois, USA, If you are a healthy, "non-essential worker" age 18-64, you are in line to receive the vaccine after every inmate in the state.
So to put that in perspective a 24 year old convicted murderer/rapist/child molester will receive the vaccine BEFORE a 64 year old healthy law biding/taxpayer/small business owner.
That is just the facts, trying my best to keep my opinion out of it.
I certainly empathize with you about the frustration with convicts getting vaccine before everyone else. It is not fair in any way, but with the cost of treating every inmate that gets sick, its in the best interest of taxpayers to keep them healthy. I think Doc mentioned a while back that cases were starting to decline in prisons as the prison population got close to herd immunity.
Quote from: Old saw fixer on February 25, 2021, 01:11:23 PM
Got our second dose of Moderna vaccine this morning. Time will tell...
My shot spot stayed swollen for ~ 3 days after the 2nd dose-had an actual hump there for 2-3 days! I'll say again that I had no business driving the first 24-36 hours and was extremely joint sore and felt like crap. Hints of what had been a full on headache subsided gradually. Was about 4-5 days to say i was mostly normal overall body wise. Anyone who works should maybe think twice about the activities after the 2nd dose-maybe it was my age? Shot still beats being dead by 100000000%.
seems counter intuitive. I am not justifying it from a social or justice point of view. anyone incarcerated becomes the responsibility of the state. almost like foster care. We have a local prison and the inmates range from young to old. So it is like a big nursing home with many who cannot leave. We made the number one position in the nation in terms of daily increase in cases because of our prison. We had days in the ED that 4 prisoners were transported at a time and many took space in the ED and ICU. Once it started there, it spread and by our peak in the community, over 80% of the prison had already had it. It left there via the employees. so it is basically a super spreader event, and seen as a public health issue. As you know, some states opted to let prisoners out... so prob. better that at least those folks "got" to stay in prison. they were part of what nearly overwhelmed our local system. again, I am not saying felons are more important than anyone else. they ended up using up a lot of resources. so this provides a look at the behind the scenes thought process. We actually had the Kansas State Medical Director of Prisons on our weekly covid meetings. She is also one of 5 Docs Deployable with KSAR and grew up 20 minutes from here. :) @Tristan (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=27183)
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on February 26, 2021, 08:31:27 AM
I certainly empathize with you about the frustration with convicts getting vaccine before everyone else. It is not fair in any way, but with the cost of treating every inmate that gets sick, its in the best interest of taxpayers to keep them healthy. I think Doc mentioned a while back that cases were starting to decline in prisons as the prison population got close to herd immunity.
Think that over?
In my area we have several prisons and everyone of the staff is in close contact with those inmates and they then go home with whatever they "got" from those folks. I have always felt that any person who works around corrections or juvy treatment should be a 1a and I stand by that feeling for vaccinations. Sa only one e.g., when I ran a juvy treatment program, I/we were often around tubercular kids and I got my chest x-rays as recommended and they were read by a doc with specialized training to look for the disease. There are many other health risks in those settings, covid is but the most recent. It's not about who you like the most for the early shots, it's about who is at what risk, not a cost analysis alone.
I find it interesting here in KY and nationally that much talk about opening nursing homes to visitation at a time when here in KY I read that vaccinations of staff are only ~ 45%. Many staff in all of those settings are of low educational level and may not understand a vaccination situ, plus the reality is they are not being forced to vaccinate in nursing homes here in KY. I lean toward forcing them, but not my decision. They are forced to meet many other health requirements why not covid? We make even food service workers meet health requirements, why not covid? I will now shut up. rant over... ;D
Quote from: doc henderson on February 26, 2021, 08:47:11 AM
seems counter intuitive. I am not justifying it from a social or justice point of view. anyone incarcerated becomes the responsibility of the state. almost like foster care. We have a local prison and the inmates range from young to old. So it is like a big nursing home with many who cannot leave. We made the number one position in the nation in terms of daily increase in cases because of our prison. We had days in the ED that 4 prisoners were transported at a time and many took space in the ED and ICU. Once it started there, it spread and by our peak in the community, over 80% of the prison had already had it. It left there via the employees. so it is basically a super spreader event, and seen as a public health issue. As you know, some states opted to let prisoners out... so prob. better that at least those folks "got" to stay in prison. they were part of what nearly overwhelmed our local system. again, I am not saying felons are more important than anyone else. they ended up using up a lot of resources. so this provides a look at the behind the scenes thought process. We actually had the Kansas State Medical Director of Prisons on our weekly covid meetings. She is also one of 5 Docs Deployable with KSAR and grew up 20 minutes from here. :) @Tristan (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=27183)
Spot on.
I took the GED test into jails when it could be argued that their were "nicer folks" who I could have been serving? In fact my school boss felt that way and made me stop.
@kantuckid (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7283)
You are correct. The symptoms of the vaccine mimic the disease, but on a lower scale. It would be nice if there were no aftereffects of the vaccine, but a couple days of low grade symptoms aren't as bad as the disease symptoms we have been having for going on 10 days, but thankfully getting better every day. If our case was a "mild to moderate" hit, then I'm glad I didn't get anything any worse, and understand how the people who have gotten really sick said they felt "fatigued for weeks, not wanting to do anything."
It seems to come in waves, I was feeling decent the day before yesterday, but yesterday I woke up and it felt like the truck had backed up and come back to hit me a second time. Today, not so bad. I don't think I can remember the last time I have been out of the shop and not working for this long.
Meanwhile, while I've been typing this, I've already had two potential customer's phone calls roll over to our answering machine which says, "I'm sorry, we are closed and will remain so until it is safe to open." So I'm sitting here in the chair, and losing money because of this DanG disease. However, it could have been a lot worse.
If nothing else, use my screw up a lesson. This is a classic case of "Take Steps to Save Steps."
the vaccine is still voluntary in the military for now, as the vaccines are still considered a drug under investigation, and considered experimental in the eyes of the FDA and CDC. when it is fully approved, that will prob. change. In our hospital, you are either required to get the flu shot, or wear a mask the entire flu season. that was pre-covid. interestingly, we are seeing virtually no flu. cases in the thousands, instead of millions. flu shot and mitigation.
Almost a year ago we had my parents and inlaws over for my birthday. That was the last time we felt safe doing so, and even then it seemed a little risky. Fast forward a year and we all(except the kids) have both doses of vaccine. We are going to go to inlaws house next weekend for my birthday. We will try to spend most of the time outside or in their screen porch. In doors the kids will wear masks. Trying to get back to a little bit of normalcy, but knowing there are still risks.
Quote from: doc henderson on February 26, 2021, 08:47:11 AM
seems counter intuitive. I am not justifying it from a social or justice point of view. anyone incarcerated becomes the responsibility of the state. almost like foster care. We have a local prison and the inmates range from young to old. So it is like a big nursing home with many who cannot leave. We made the number one position in the nation in terms of daily increase in cases because of our prison. We had days in the ED that 4 prisoners were transported at a time and many took space in the ED and ICU. Once it started there, it spread and by our peak in the community, over 80% of the prison had already had it. It left there via the employees. so it is basically a super spreader event, and seen as a public health issue. As you know, some states opted to let prisoners out... so prob. better that at least those folks "got" to stay in prison. they were part of what nearly overwhelmed our local system. again, I am not saying felons are more important than anyone else. they ended up using up a lot of resources. so this provides a look at the behind the scenes thought process. We actually had the Kansas State Medical Director of Prisons on our weekly covid meetings. She is also one of 5 Docs Deployable with KSAR and grew up 20 minutes from here. :) @Tristan (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=27183)
I was a correction's officer with the supermax/death row inmates. I have swallowed my share of pills and eaten more than my share of EDITED BY ADMIN sandwiches, So trust me when i say "i understand we need to take better care of the prison system and the whole community that revolves around it. "
BUT, what do we tell the 64 year old small business owner who has been shut down for a whole year, had his car reposed, his house in foreclose, he electric shut off and his business in bankruptcy court ?
Do we tell him to just keep paying your taxes so we can buy a vaccine for just a few hundred more child molesters and murders, then after they are all vaccinated we will put you on a list and get to your family as soon as possible ? That is a hard pill to swallow, or a big sandwich to eat by yourself. But now i know why the marijuana stores are essential, because you have to roll that one up and smoke it, it is to big to swallow.
@Tristen (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=52938) were you at the prison in Pontiac? I have a friend who works there. Lives just a few blocks from the prison and walks to work. I don't think I could live that close.
We just lost a good friend to covid19. A classic example of just how nasty this stuff can be. mid 60's good health, infected from caring for her 88 year old dad who died from covid a month ago. Hospital intensive care unit, first on oxygen, then a ventilator for weeks. Kidneys shut down, mild heart attract, lungs trashed, blood oxygen levels down in the critical numbers. Lay in a coma for weeks before the family agreed to pull the plug on the ventilator. Brain dead within 15 minutes. And there are folks who say this stuff is all fake :( nothing to worry about...
@firefighter ontheside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=26921) Kansas Dept of corrections, El Dorado. Out by Real close to Doc. I lived in the same community as the prison. It was a great little town. Everything in the whole community revolves around the prison in one way or another. From health care to fire dept to street repair to the YMCA, the restaurants, the glass repair shop, the gas stations. Everyone in some way deals with the prison, the people who work there or the inmates family's. I agree it is a super spreader if covid gets in there then the whole community gets it. But i would *DanG sure give the vaccine to every person in the Community before i gave it to the inmates !
Fauci stated that those who have taken the vaccine will shed the virus to others; I've read for years that the flu vaccine does this, and apparently according to the main guy=Fauci, covid vacs are doing the same.
So what of it? My massage guy, he took it, and so far, three weeks later, and just before his second shot, my partner, and I both have 'symptoms', and he's literally the only person we've been around; the only one.
I know this, as we're long time, and term germaphobes, we had the clorox wipes, and a proverbial suitcase full of preventative measures lined up every year. He's our point of contact; in an enclosed room alone, same air for an hour/twice weekly...
That is not what Fauci said. The vaccine does not give you the virus. What can happen is that someone who has been vaccinated can contract the virus and shed virus for a while until their antibodies get rid of the virus. This vaccine and every other vaccine works to kill a virus once you get it. The same thing happened with the vaccines that eradicated polio and smallpox. Did you read what happened to @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) ? He got vaccinated, but didn't know that he had already contracted the virus before vaccination. If you indeed got the virus from your massage therapist. One of these 2 things is likely how.
33 hours since our second dose of Moderna. Other than a sore arm, my wife feels good. I have a slight fever, 100° when normal is 97.9° on the same forehead thermometer. Other than that just a little general malaise. No problem with appetite, taste is okay. We'll see what tomorrow brings.
I haven't heard loss of taste being a side effect of vaccine, only as a symptom of covid. I hope you your side effects don't get any worse.
Most of this has been covered before.
The basic jist of the vaccine is to give your body bits of foreign proteins that your immune system will recognize as not supposed to be there. Your body therefore see's it and begins to make immunity proteins (antibodies) against these foreign bits, it sees as invaders. Since it is foreign the vaccine does cause a physiological response and since we are vaccinating against a member of a very common virus family (common colds) all of us have seen these (though somewhat different) in one variety or another. So your bodies immunity reaction to the vaccine causes some level of inflammation. That can feel like actually getting one of these bugs(viruses).... The signs vary greatly by each person. The vaccine isn't giving you Covid but your body is mildly imitating the symptoms as if you actually had it or a similar Corona cold virus. It took 3 days for me to be normal after dose number 2 as did one of the other docs, doc number 3 ran a higher fever but was good in a day or so, doctor 4 had a tiny bit of soreness in his arm and that was all.
If a properly vaccinated person is exposed to the virus several things can happen. The virus can attach to cells in your body and fail to do anything much if high levels of immunity are present. It can grow a small amount and a little shedding can occur, this can happen in varying amounts, all the way up to individuals that the vaccine doesn't work in at all. According to the numbers it's less than 2 in 20. If enough people in a group are vaccinated or had have the disease and survived it(the virus) runs out of new victims and dies out. Thus herd immunity. I am a food animal practitioner not a RD(real doctor ) ;)
but this is how I have answered folks when I have been asked. If Doc Henderson or one of the other human physicians on the board has other opinions on my simple explanation listen to them!
some of the older vaccines were an attenuated live virus. so you actually got a version of the virus that was modified to not cause a bad disease, and yes it could spread to others, and get immunity for them even though they did not get a vaccine. Most vaccines are not live virus, but as stated, enough foreign protein to prepare your body for battle with the real live virus. the problems with live attenuated was if it mutated back to the real virus, and then you get an occasional kid who gets polio as an example. the benefits of all of these vaccines, far outweighs the risks. almost all of the viral and vaccine side effects, are collateral damage from you immune system waging war, so not from the virus but the inflammation from you own immune system. so it is good to have side effects from the vaccine. it means it worked.
Yes, I had been exposed to the virus earlier in the week, was feeling fine, went to get a vaccine and the day after, felt bad. Arm swollen, muscles aches, and a cough. Surely just side effect of the vaccine. The next day, I get a call from my oldest daughter, she just tested positive. So now, I decide maybe I need to get tested, but I'm certain the effects I have are from the vaccine. Well, as I'm getting tested, I tell the guy how I had the vaccine the day before, and these are surely just symptoms of it. He looked at me and said "......welll....coughing isn't a side effect of the vaccine....". And 15 minutes later, "Mr. Milton, you are positive for Covid."
So I drive home, tell my wife who also has a slight cough "from the vaccine, surely" and she gets an appointment, and and hour later we find she has Covid also.
The next day, the it feels like a truck ran us over.
With this scenario, it may have easily looked like we caught the covid from the vaccine, but we didn't, we know exactly who and when we caught it from.
My daughter works at a Covid test lab, she told a story today that may enlighten how erratically people are behaving. Three people drive up in a pickup truck, two guys and young girl, one of their daughters. No masks, no nothing, yet they drove up thinking at least one person in the truck had Covid. One of the guys had a runny nose, and the girl had a runny nose. The guy driving had no symptoms, and was acting as a chauffeur. They did a test on the guy with a runny nose and he was negative. So they asked if the guy driving wanted a test and he said, no, he hasn't been exposed. However, after thinking about it, he asked if he could get a test for his daughter, who had the runny nose. They did, and she was positive. So then the guy driving gets worried, and takes a test and he is also positive, but with no symptoms, or they haven't developed yet. The only guy who was negative was the fellow who they had brought in to get tested in the first place, the one with the runny nose. How much do you want to bet he will be positive in a couple days? That will be a three for three scenario.
My FIL is getting a shot today. He's 86.
Quote from: Tristen on February 26, 2021, 01:58:05 PM
@firefighter ontheside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=26921) Kansas Dept of corrections, El Dorado. Out by Real close to Doc. I lived in the same community as the prison. It was a great little town. Everything in the whole community revolves around the prison in one way or another. From health care to fire dept to street repair to the YMCA, the restaurants, the glass repair shop, the gas stations. Everyone in some way deals with the prison, the people who work there or the inmates family's. I agree it is a super spreader if covid gets in there then the whole community gets it. But i would *DanG sure give the vaccine to every person in the Community before i gave it to the inmates !
Based on your current location in IL I thought you were going to say Marion, IL which I toured in the late 1970's while attending a corrections educational conference nearby. Marion then was the super max of the fed inmates and a real zoo of humanities best we have types.
The mix of people that choose not to get the vaccine is interesting for me. Not something I'll ever really understand though. News stories are prolific now of the people who travel around trying to catch a leftover dose when the line gets dosed. While I was sure glad to have the vaccine I was never going to travel the country in search of the dose someone didn't show up for? That's truly weird IMO.
The two state prisons near me are both in extremely small counties that are rural with zero factories and not much coal in either one. Both locations were heavily influenced by politicians who lived there who also controlled EVERY job that came up in either one of them, period. From my experience there I respect the corrections process done correctly but was glad to be working among regular folks when I left it all behind. Between the cons and the politicians in control it was far from my favorite type of work.
El Dorado named by Cortez? before the prison and town there now... :D
I going in for my 2nd injection of Pfizer at 3:15 this afternoon!
My brother and his wife both had theirs yesterday and day-before, no side effects other than tender at the injection site!
That's how traditional vaccines work. The mRNA vaccine (which Pfizer and Moderna are) work differently:
I ain't a doctor but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn too. :)
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-do-mrna-vaccines-work (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-do-mrna-vaccines-work)
The Johnson & Johnson vaccine is a traditional vaccine and is refrigerator stable for several months, and only requires one injection. It may not be as effective as the mRNA's.
Before I went to bed last night my temp was back to my normal and the malaise was gone. This morning I am fine. Wife is fine.
That's great @Old saw fixer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=47231) that's what we like to hear.
Got up this morning, only side effect to the shot is the injection site is tender to the touch! 8)
If I don't touch it, there is no discomfort at all!
I know........ Don't touch! ;D
Glad it's all done!
I've googled quite a bit and can't find a clear answer, maybe Doc or someone can provide a medical background answer for this.
What about taking both a Johnson & Johnson vaccine and one of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine or Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine?
I'm way down on the list, so it could be I end up being offered the J&J now that it is approved, which has lower efficacy. I'm fortunate I work from home as does my wife, and have very little exposure risk and I could just wait. I'd rather have the Pfizer or Moderna, but if J&J was offered sooner, could I take it and then also get one of the other mRNA options also when available? Or do I just wait for my chance to get Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine or Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine?
I found some discussion of mixing the mRNA vaccines taking 1st shot of one and 2nd shot of another as reasonable.
But what about taking the J&J adenovirus type, then when available taking both shots of one of the two mRNA vaccines later?
Any potential issues? Will that still get my system boosted up to the higher Pfizer or Moderna efficacy? Is there any benefit from immunity response via the slightly different methods or perhaps a loss?
Any help is appreciated, as I ain't a doctor and I haven't recently stayed at a Holiday Inn like Magicman :D :)
From a non-doctor:
Holiday Inn jokes aside, (I dislike hotels & motels other than in a pinch of logic as to where else would I stay) I suspect a person might just have tell a lie to get a mixed brand vaccination? Or do some states keep an overall register of whose had what?
I do wish the media would refrain from using their deeply engrained tendency to dramatize things of all types such as covid-19 and anything else they can get their grubby hands on. It forces me to work harder to choose what to read and what has maybe got some meat to it. "How many masks Fauci wears" is but one meager e.g. of the mess we are in info wise. Whew, I need a vacation... ;D
I'm not that picky about hotels if the alternative is spending the night in my truck. I am picky about information sources and professor Schmitdke is one of my favorites. here is an excerpt
"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. Yes, the Johnson and Johnson vaccine does not prevent infection as well as the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. However the infections that do happen appear to be more mild than what we see for the unvaccinated population. And that's a good goal for vaccination too - to bring this pandemic's severity down to something similar to the common cold. We don't close schools or businesses for outbreaks of the common cold. This vaccine may not be as great as the other two (a good reminder of just how lucky we are to have them) but it is "good enough" to accomplish the goal of ending the pandemic. Look at what I mean in the table below. I discussed a similar table in Wednesday's newsletter. If we look at the efficacy of preventing hospitalization, then the Johnson and Johnson vaccine does quite well. At 14 days the efficacy is 93.1% and at 28 days the efficacy is 100%."
Vaccine Q&A, 26Feb2021 - Georgia COVID-19 Updates (https://amberschmidtkephd.substack.com/p/vaccine-q-and-a-26feb2021?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxMjgyODQzNCwicG9zdF9pZCI6MzI4NzIxNDcsIl8iOiJTN2Y2SyIsImlhdCI6MTYxNDUyMjMzMCwiZXhwIjoxNjE0NTI1OTMwLCJpc3MiOiJwdWItNjAyNzkiLCJzdWIiOiJwb3N0LXJlYWN0aW9uIn0.tJYW9dYflupLxViY6HeQVODA-L_ot9ZRI5pbitNVvHw)
I've read from certain medical experts that we shouldn't be comparing efficacy's of these new vaccines, as in a pick & choose mode, but truth is that we have arrived at that very spot and most of us would make use of some sort of choice basis.
I walked into Kroger's yesterday off the highway (drove to my SIL's to trim her storm tree) and needed to pee. I had to walk the length of the covid shot line to the RR and thought about what ones going in their arms? In my area as I speak, the regional hospital has whatever(moderna when we went for ours) local health has whatever brand and several brands of pharmacies have there stash now too.
From that perhaps people can now pick and choose vaccines? Not to point fingers at all but fact remains that most of us non-scientists are not really gonna learn to be an epidemologist via a the media. :D
yes the numbers are from the studies done to seek emergency approval. the J&J one only used one dose in the studies, so that is the number and what has to be used. I will research mixing up the brands further. it may be having 1 each of two different vaccines may be the best as it broadens the immune coverage. that have talked about 1rst and second doses being different brands of the same type of vaccine. It is possible that 2 doses of the J&J would have the same efficacy. I agree it is about preventing death and hospitalization. It is logistically easier to give one vaccine dose instead of two, as people do not always follow through.
Going for the fence- Doc-how's about a third dose of something or ruther...? ;D
Quote from: kantuckid on February 28, 2021, 11:10:06 AM
Going for the fence- Doc-how's about a third dose of something or ruther...?
There's a small trial in Georgia I've been participating in. N=1. So far a steady dose of IPA has been 100% effective. Clearly more research is needed.
Thing to remember is that any vaccine doesn't have to be 100% effective, or reach 100% of the population. As long as it's 90+% effective, and 90+% of the population get it, the virus dies out because 80% of the population is immune.
The higher (and quicker) we can get those numbers the sooner the pandemic will die out.
The mixing of different vaccines might be more effective, but it hasn't been tested properly. It could also increase the risk of side effects, no one knows for sure.
A vaccination project doesn't need to be "perfect", "good enough" done sooner will be more effective. So now there are 3 approved vaccines it should mean the job can be done in 1/3 the time, and which one you get won't make a huge difference.
NZ is back into partial lock down because some people can't understand the concept of "You've been exposed, get tested and stay home until it comes back negative".
"Get tested then go to work, the gym and do some shopping on the way home" isn't an effective way to stop an outbreak,
and the sooner we can resume our senior travels and head for NZ to ride both islands... YEA!
Ianab, what happened? Heard on the news this morning that y'all went into full lock down :o :(.
I never had any side effects other than a sore arm for about 1½ days!
Wife and I just got home from getting our second shot of Pfizer, if we feel ok in the morning we are going to the beach house for a few days.
we have gone to every other week on covid meetings, and considering stopping unless needed.
Much is being said about Texas Governor Greg Abbott (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=ALeKk035NhEPbtXEPGdZSgMrNvlEP4J1kA:1614873175549&q=Greg+Abbott&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgVuLUz9U3MDXNLTd7xGjCLfDyxz1hKe1Ja05eY1Tl4grOyC93zSvJLKkUEudig7J4pbi5ELp4FrFyuxelpis4JiXll5QAACm49ARSAAAA) opening up Texas. With out getting into politics, the state has been suffering through natural disasters and political in fighting. Business's closed, some for a year, schools closed, isolation of the populations.
Abbot made a decision to stop state intervention into social/cultural norms in Texas and leave it to local leadership to continue covid protocol based on the locale. Strange, imagine that, letting the locals decide.
I love Texas.
I think that is what is happening here as well. only half the people wear a mask in WM. And lifting the mandate (our state still has one and our county is following their direction) would prob. result in the same number of people wearing a mask anyway. Just like the vaccine a high enough percentage results in better public health, and hospitals that can stay open.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 04, 2021, 10:18:29 AM
we have gone to every other week on covid meetings, and considering stopping unless needed.
That's a great sign, Doc. Number here have seemed to level off at a number about like we had back in the summer. Its not great, but we will take it for now.
Well I didn't think it would happen quite this soon, but the wife and I both got our first shots yesterday at noon. She had no issues last night and all I had was a little soreness at the injection site, kind of like a sire muscle, but very minor. No trouble sleeping beyond normal. This morning I have a small headache, but nothing else, wife is fine. Just glad we got it done so we can stop being run around like nuts trying to find out what the plan is, who has the vaccines, and when they are available. Our local county government really did a terrible job for the last mile, but they are getting the vaccine out there, just driving the population nuts trying to figure out their system, which changes twice a week. We got ours through a local private pharmacy that really has their act together on the logistics front. Our second shot is scheduled for the exact time and place as the first one in 4 weeks, this cuts down on scheduling issues.
I am just glad its done. 8)
I thought the timing between the first and the second was critical!
I got mine on the 6th, then the second one three weeks later, on the 27th!
Hey, Hey Hey, my wife and I both tested negative, and we are back in the game, trying to get this mess behind us. The lingering effects of Covid are still with us, but I understand that may take a few to many weeks to get over according to the practitioner at Huntsville Hospital.
I went to the CDC website and they have updated guidance, March 3, related to several of the vaccine questions that are being asked here. The physicians I have talked to all tell me the same thing, they themselves check the CDC site and base their recommendations on it.
Most of the questions are answered here, including the timing of the vaccines, mixing of types of vaccines, over vaccinating, and vaccinating after monoclonal antibody treatment.
Interim Clinical Considerations for Use of COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html)
The Pfizer is recommended for 3 weeks and moderna 4 weeks. Both say its ok to get the second dose as much as 6 weeks after first. The bigger issue was getting it too early.
YH, that's the same site I just got my info from. It does have good info.
Quote from: YellowHammer on March 05, 2021, 07:55:57 AM
Hey, Hey Hey, my wife and I both tested negative, and we are back in the game, trying to get this mess behind us. The lingering effects of Covid are still with us, but I understand that may take a few to many weeks to get over according to the practitioner at Huntsville Hospital.
I went to the CDC website and they have updated guidance, March 3, related to several of the vaccine questions that are being asked here. The physicians I have talked to all tell me the same thing, they themselves check the CDC site and base their recommendations on it.
Most of the questions are answered here, including the timing of the vaccines, mixing of types of vaccines, over vaccinating, and vaccinating after monoclonal antibody treatment.
Interim Clinical Considerations for Use of COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html)
Just read an article about a high level cellist in KY who's entire family got covid. He's young and healthy looking guy but suffers from the effects long after contacting covid. his sense of smell & taste has never come back and he's been told it might not ever return. His body has effects too such as when he reaches across his instrument one whole side of his body is affected. This is a guy who's playing the musical score for a new movie, so a very serious career event for him. All in his family have mostly recovered but he say's for people to never sell this virus short on how it can get to you.
a good site for reference. note it is labelled considerations, since this is all new and most specifics have not been studied. so often qualified answers like "no evidence to suggest" ect. It is the best we have! thanks @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) and I am glad you guys are doing well.
Doc Henderson, a curiosity question on my part. After one has his full compliment of vaccine, will he show positive for covid antibodies in a blood screen without actually having the disease? I think I know the answer, but I was never the one to ignore my curiosity itch.
You should show positive on most tests. Our hospital does a "total" antibody. It is what most places do. you can differentiate between "had the vaccine" and "had the disease", but have to send that off. only if needed for some reason. you can still get the virus if antibody + but typically not be as sick or symptomatic. so now the issue is can you spread the virus if you have been vaccinated, have antibodies, but get a mild subsequent infection. this is why the big guns hesitate to say thing will get back to normal.
go give blood, and you will get a report about antibodies for free. they need blood.
Schedule Your Blood Donation With The Red Cross (https://www.redcrossblood.org/give.html/find-drive?scode=RSG00000E017&cid=brand&med=cpc&source=bing&gclid=4cf30a43ba1313b8db976a018459c89c&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=4cf30a43ba1313b8db976a018459c89c&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=BrandBlood%7CBrand%7CBrand%20New&utm_term=red%20cross%20blood%20donation&utm_content=Red%20Cross%20Blood%20Donation)
Thanks, Doc.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 05, 2021, 09:19:20 AM
go give blood, and you will get a report about antibodies for free. they need blood.
Schedule Your Blood Donation With The Red Cross (https://www.redcrossblood.org/give.html/find-drive?scode=RSG00000E017&cid=brand&med=cpc&source=bing&gclid=4cf30a43ba1313b8db976a018459c89c&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=4cf30a43ba1313b8db976a018459c89c&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=BrandBlood%7CBrand%7CBrand%20New&utm_term=red%20cross%20blood%20donation&utm_content=Red%20Cross%20Blood%20Donation)
Do the tests tell you whether you have antibodies and/or the level of them?
it is a go no go test so a yes or no. I do not think they differentiate vaccine induced vs disease induced antibody. the levels are not specified, but yes, they tell you if you have a significant (above the min. threshold of the test) antibody level.
lets see if we can make a difference. if you report giving, starting today, lets follow with a number given.
So for those donating blood is having had the vaccine a plus? Any time period of waiting after the second dose? I used to donate regularly and am guilty of not donating much since I retired, I never really minded donating so should start back up.
Well they finally are setting up a site at the NYS fairgrounds for central NY vaccines and they have appoints available. Found out they only have the J&J vaccine there and we don't like its base is aborted fetal cells so not going to make the 75 mile trip each way with that being the only option and It sounds like they are the only appointments in the area because of that. There still are no other appointments available in the area for the other 2 vaccines closer then Albany that would be a 450 mile round trip for us. Every time area appointments pop up on the NY website they are filled by the time you respond. One county over they have vaccines but won't accept appointments from anyone not living in Monroe county. Tired of wasting our time constantly searching for appointments. Western NY has not properly been handled by our leaders.
early on they gave covid + patient plasma to sick patients. now we have monoclonal antibodies. so not a plus except it means you are immune and may not get the disease or not get as sick. 21 sorry you do not have good options for vaccine. the fetal cells are prob. from a culture taken in the 70s not ongoing. not sure that matters to you. good luck!
Doc, years ago I picked up a bug on a fun travel adventure trip to the tropics. The last time I tried to give blood they found something they didn't like. Could not give, that has been some time ago, but also some time after my tropic vacation. How long does that stuff linger in your blood?
not sure what you had. was it Malaria? I guess go try and see, or let me know if you find out what it was.
Dengue
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 05, 2021, 07:41:14 AM
Well I didn't think it would happen quite this soon, but the wife and I both got our first shots yesterday at noon. She had no issues last night and all I had was a little soreness at the injection site, kind of like a sire muscle, but very minor. No trouble sleeping beyond normal. This morning I have a small headache, but nothing else, wife is fine. Just glad we got it done so we can stop being run around like nuts trying to find out what the plan is, who has the vaccines, and when they are available. Our local county government really did a terrible job for the last mile, but they are getting the vaccine out there, just driving the population nuts trying to figure out their system, which changes twice a week. We got ours through a local private pharmacy that really has their act together on the logistics front. Our second shot is scheduled for the exact time and place as the first one in 4 weeks, this cuts down on scheduling issues.
I am just glad its done. 8)
Well we got shot on Thursday noon and Friday I had no discomfort at all except that tenderness at the spot of the shot. I did have a runny nose for part of the day, as did the wife and a headache in the morning (quickly resolved with OTC). There was minor tiredness but hard to tell if that was just a normal day. This morning another mild headache, but everything else is clear. That headache may be from something else with my normal 'all the time' sinus problems.
So all good and I see they have been searching for more folks to come get the shot with last minute vacancies every other day or so. The county continues to do a poor job of communicating, but that one private Pharmacy is kicking butt doing a daily clinic rotating through 3 towns and also doing home visits for the very aged homebound patients. I think they did 3,000 this week so far. Next shot is April Fool's day, wonder if there is a connection? ;D Funny, but I have been trying to spread the word on these same day appointments and shots, but the folks I contact have either already gotten it, or are not too interested in getting it. I respect their choices, but still have to wonder at the logic.
It's now been a few days after my second shot and no after effects, the worst pain was removing the bandage after the first shot, the bandage was hairy and I had a bald spot on my normally hairy upper arm, they didn't use a bandage the second shot, maybe because I told her I cried for hours after removing the first one. :D
I was just watching a science show about bugs from the tropics and one they talked about caused a disease called chagas. It can be chronic like lymes disease, but go unnoticed by the person for years and years.
Happy Birthday Batt Chief smiley_fireman_hat
Brent
Quote from: DbltreeBelgians on March 06, 2021, 11:19:54 PM
Happy Birthday Batt Chief smiley_fireman_hat
Thank you! I guess it says 47 by my name now.
One of our twins in Knoxville, a civil engineer & branch manager, saw that the VA in Johnson City, TN had covid shots for any veteran as the older ones were apparently avoid. He works there often so he scheduled his shot, then saw that Knoxville had them and re-scheduled for there, close to home for this Saturday. He's only 43 but the news said ALL veterans so he signed up. He stood in line at the VA for over three hours then when his turn came he was screened again and rejected based on him "making too much money". Reality is that he's an extremely busy guy with projects in cities all over several regions and literally falls in bed most nights exhausted, compounded by having a wife that teaches FT and three young grade school girls who relish time with their Dad. needless to say he was ticked off over wasting most of his Saturday. His wife got vaccinated with her school staff some time back. FWIW, those GK's have been in FT contact public school where their Mom teaches since the school year started.
FWIW, in comparison to his covid shot rejection: His twin brother in AL, a non-veteran, was told he was qualified for the covid shot based on him being an engineer and he got his the same day, yesterday in Birmingham. He also called his FIL who owns a landscaping nursery and business to let him know that his occupational category in AL also qualified for the shot. His MIL had her shot as she's a physical therapist in a nursing home and had hers early on.
Our oldest son, also a veteran in TX, age 46, got his shot couple weeks back from the VA as they'd opened it up age wise in Amarillo based on many older veterans not getting their shots. He makes a similar income as a test pilot to his civil engineer younger brother, both well into 6 figures. Of his pilot group (all veterans as they fly a military helo) he's the only one to date that has opted to get the shot.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 05, 2021, 10:00:33 PM
early on they gave covid + patient plasma to sick patients. now we have monoclonal antibodies. so not a plus except it means you are immune and may not get the disease or not get as sick. 21 sorry you do not have good options for vaccine. the fetal cells are prob. from a culture taken in the 70s not ongoing. not sure that matters to you. good luck!
That J&J vaccine topic of aborted fetal cell source concern was circulating on FB last few days.
I read up on it and the AMA has good basic info on the cell sources as "elective" and from many years back as you say in the 70's and 80's. The reality is that the specific elective factor is unknown from that source I read and could have been a severely deformed fetus or other elective reason aside from the pro-life vs. pro-choice hot button issue. it mentioned there that other vaccines such as rabies and more were derived from the same cell sources.
Got lucky yesterday. My wife uses Facebook and found they post the local clinics on there first. She liked the local county page a couple weeks ago. They posted a pop up clinic for Tuesday yesterday morning and we immediately went to the state site and got appointments. It's the Pfizer vaccine tomorrow morning. 8)
Our younger daughter (38 yoa) has been going to a chiropractor for back pain, but yesterday the pain was different and and also in her neck. She went to the real Doc and ended up with a positive Covid test. No other symptoms yet, but is quarantined at home. Her husband and our grandson have to quarantine for 14 days. He will need a negative test before he can go back to work. I am concerned about the little fellow (16 months old) , since we ordinarily keep him 4 days a week while they work. Wife and I have had both Moderna shots. SIL adamantly refuses any shots so neither of them had any shots.
I think with everything you are doing, all should be fine. hope and pray!
Vaccinations have started here, with border workers and their families getting shots first.
Govt have outlined the timeline, which is realistically going to take the rest of the year to get through most of the population. It appears we all get the Pfizer shots.
Phase 1 - Border workers should be completed by the end of this month.
Phase 2 - They have April / May for healthcare workers and rest home residents.
Phase 3 - May / June it gets expanded to all older folks and pre-existing conditions, I should be on that list.
Then from July it's "everyone else that wants it".
Hopefully the logistics of all this has been thought through. Bound to be some teething problems, but the timeline seems realistic and achievable.
Quote from: Ianab on March 09, 2021, 08:27:45 PM
Vaccinations have started here, with border workers and their families getting shots first.
Govt have outlined the timeline, which is realistically going to take the rest of the year to get through most of the population. It appears we all get the Pfizer shots.
Phase 1 - Border workers should be completed by the end of this month.
Phase 2 - They have April / May for healthcare workers and rest home residents.
Phase 3 - May / June it gets expanded to all older folks and pre-existing conditions, I should be on that list.
Then from July it's "everyone else that wants it".
Hopefully the logistics of all this has been thought through. Bound to be some teething problems, but the timeline seems realistic and achievable.
I think the workload on the people dealing with getting this done is absolutely incredible. I watch our Provincial authorities dealing with and fielding the BS that comes with it and am just thankful for them and the medical profession over all. Hats off! Yes there are questions and unknowns but they are just trying to keep us healthy and alive. The politics side of things can side track good things.
@donbj (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=43431) I can't agree more. Our local health dept. has done nothing during this past year, but try to make people stay healthy and alive. You would think more people would appreciate that, but no. The director is a friend of ours and she received threats to her and her family when they proposed the mask mandate for the county. Someone said that the health department shouldn't focus on prevention, but should promote people eating healthy and taking vitamins and that would prevent them getting coronavirus.
this pandemic has made us all a little crazy, but some people got a head start! :) :) :)
Kantuckid, is your son flying the Osprey? My BIL works for Bell Helicopter and he used to work on that project up in Amarillo.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on March 10, 2021, 08:07:03 AM
@donbj (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=43431) I can't agree more. Our local health dept. has done nothing during this past year, but try to make people stay healthy and alive. You would think more people would appreciate that, but no. The director is a friend of ours and she received threats to her and her family when they proposed the mask mandate for the county. Someone said that the health department shouldn't focus on prevention, but should promote people eating healthy and taking vitamins and that would prevent them getting coronavirus.
Yes, I don't get it. Our Provincial Health Officer is a very compassionate Lady. She has received death and harm threats over this as well. I literally cannot fathom where someone goes in their head to be able to do such things. Goes for a lot of things I suppose.
Bombshell! There was a talk show with a doctor on and he said some clinical trials are showing people over 65 that are getting vaccinated are actually having a higher death rate due to complications from the vaccine. Also findings coming out of Israel are that people that have been vaccinated are developing unusually high bleeding disorders
The doctor also stated do you realize some people peel a banana from from the bottom and not the top 😂.
He has some very interesting information
Wife and I got our first Pfizer shot yesterday morning. Both had headaches by the time we got home. Arms were a little sore and I was a little tired so I took a couple hour nap. By last night we were fine with just a little tenderness in our arm. Fine this morning with no other side effects. It was quite the operation they set up. They administered about 100 shots an hour for 6 hours only to those over 65. Made appointments for the follow ups after being observed for 15 minutes to be sure no one has allergic reactions. Can't wait to be with the grandkids again after the second shot kicks in.
Quote from: barbender on March 10, 2021, 10:04:16 AM
Kantuckid, is your son flying the Osprey? My BIL works for Bell Helicopter and he used to work on that project up in Amarillo.
PM sent to discuss oldest son.
Georgia is opening up vaccination to 55 and older so I'm eligible starting the 15th next Monday. Now to get on a few waiting lists.
Quote from: Walnut Beast on March 10, 2021, 04:45:33 PM
The doctor also stated do you realize some people peel a banana from from the bottom and not the top 😂.
He has some very interesting information
I can easily top that story on the banana. I was a golf caddy from 5th grade through college. One of the caddies I worked with was an adult who in todays world might have been autistic. His name was Donnie and the man was in his 30's & 40's while all the rest of us were teenagers mostly and Donnie had some odd quirks. One was his lunch habits. He'd eat several bananas every day and he ate the WHOLE THING! I kid you not, peeling and all! He also had a can of pork & beans in his grub sack and ate them when he had time. He had a brother who was a member at that country club so he was well provided for at home as it was. When we were stuck in the caddy shack from no job or rain he played solitaire for hours on end.
On the odd eaters subject- I worked with an adult Vo-Tech business teacher who I'd sit outside and eat supper/lunch with many evenings and we were all into a watermelon one night and she ate the rinds along with the "good stuff". Their are some weird eaters out there folks.
To avoid going into the gutter I'll avoid comment on the Health Dept talk.
Quote from: Walnut Beast on March 10, 2021, 04:34:43 PM
Bombshell! There was a talk show with a doctor on and he said some clinical trials are showing people over 65 that are getting vaccinated are actually having a higher death rate due to complications from the vaccine. Also findings coming out of Israel are that people that have been vaccinated are developing unusually high bleeding disorders
My #2 shot bothered me a good bit but once I was maybe 36 hours past it I've been quite normal.
Get the shots people!
Quote from: Walnut Beast on March 10, 2021, 04:34:43 PMBombshell! There was a talk show with a doctor on and he said some clinical trials are showing people over 65 that are getting vaccinated are actually having a higher death rate due to complications from the vaccine
That's been reported in Europe as well, but generally with people that are so "frail" that a mild fever (common side effect) could kill them. If they caught Covid-19 or influenza they were very likely to die from that as well.
So they were recommending not vaccinating the really frail folks, and just relying on giving everyone around them the jab.
The old "Do no harm" thing. If the treatment is just a s risky as the disease, are you really helping the situation?
Quote from: kantuckid on March 10, 2021, 05:21:49 PM
Quote from: Walnut Beast on March 10, 2021, 04:45:33 PM
The doctor also stated do you realize some people peel a banana from from the bottom and not the top 😂.
He has some very interesting information
I can easily top that story on the banana. I was a golf caddy from 5th grade through college. One of the caddies I worked with was an adult who in todays world might have been autistic. His name was Donnie and the man was in his 30's & 40's while all the rest of us were teenagers mostly and Donnie had some odd quirks. One was his lunch habits. He'd eat several bananas every day and he ate the WHOLE THING! I kid you not, peeling and all! He also had a can of pork & beans in his grub sack and ate them when he had time. He had a brother who was a member at that country club so he was well provided for at home as it was. When we were stuck in the caddy shack from no job or rain he played solitaire for hours on end.
On the odd eaters subject- I worked with an adult Vo-Tech business teacher who I'd sit outside and eat supper/lunch with many evenings and we were all into a watermelon one night and she ate the rinds along with the "good stuff". Their are some weird eaters out there folks.
To avoid going into the gutter I'll avoid comment on the Health Dept talk.
Glad that brought a few memories back! That had me 😂😂 on your story!!
Quote from: Ianab on March 10, 2021, 07:22:36 PM
Quote from: Walnut Beast on March 10, 2021, 04:34:43 PMBombshell! There was a talk show with a doctor on and he said some clinical trials are showing people over 65 that are getting vaccinated are actually having a higher death rate due to complications from the vaccine
That's been reported in Europe as well, but generally with people that are so "frail" that a mild fever (common side effect) could kill them. If they caught Covid-19 or influenza they were very likely to die from that as well.
So they were recommending not vaccinating the really frail folks, and just relying on giving everyone around them the jab.
The old "Do no harm" thing. If the treatment is just a s risky as the disease, are you really helping the situation?
Frail wise ;D, I sawed yesterday until 3:30 then plowed my garden, then fixed tractor back to logging for this a.m., then had a brewski moment... My point isn't to argue over the potential effects of frailty and covid shots- it's to make clear that the #2 shot tore me up for a short while, frailty aside.
One of our youngest son's, a 43 yr old who works out and quite active and healthy said the J&J shot made him a bit queasy and very sore arm.
I'm curious, are the side effects peculiar to the vaccine, or are they same as if a person had been infected?
Having had both the vaccine and the disease, my experience was that the side effects of the vaccine were exactly like the virus, and once the virus kicked in, the symptoms that I thought were from the vaccine got significantly worse, by 10X, and I developed new ones. No symptom I had from the vaccine were not also symptoms I had from the disease.
From the vaccine, I had a sore arm, slight temperature, and a general feeling of tiredness.
From the disease, the sore arm moved to my entire body with aches and pains in all my joints, especially my back, (I still have that joy, a week after testing negative). I also had a slight fever, but never very high, but had it for about a week. I had a feeling of total exhaustion which is odd for me. I was exhausted walking more than a few feet. I had a headache, and a cough that lasted for days. I also had the odd symptoms, such as dead cells on my tongue (Covid Tongue), and partial loss of smell and taste.
What I'm wondering is if peoples reactions to the vaccine would be the same as if they were infected, and if they react badly to the vaccine, they would have reacted 10X more badly (like me) to the disease? From my experience, the reactions to the vaccine was much less severe than the disease, but were basically the same.
You are correct. if the outcomes and symptoms of the vaccine were as bad as the disease, we would not give it. When I read the post by @Walnut Beast (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=49695) I interpreted it as sarcastic. I saw the words doctor, talk show, upside down banana eating in the post and felt he was simultaneously discounting what was said. Of course I do not know the doctors name or the name of the talk show, and I eat my bananas from the stem down. :) I did not see a smiley so was not sure, but decided to "let it go". clotting problems are for certain present in post covid patients for months after the disease. If a death occurs in proximity to a vaccine, it is investigated but not yet attributed to cause. I really have not heard of anyone dying "from the vaccine" . If you are 100 years old, a life insurance policy would cost you more than the face value since the agent has to make commission and the chance of death in the year of the policy is close to 100%. Even if the vaccine caused some morbidity and mortality, the goal would be to reduce that rate to significantly less than the disease. maybe WB could clarify if it was an outrageous example of dumb stuff out there, or if he thought it was legit. use the smileys people. lol
Regarding the school re-opening discussion all over the USA- I saw the other night where younger children have higher morbidity from the seasonal flu than from covid so far. I wonder how they'll gauge what age gets a shot in that vaccine balancing act? other than be observant of covid morbidity in kids? meanwhile schools are opening to some degree.
I was talking work on the phone with a local HS kid this week. I knew they were on a 4 days schedule with one day called virtual. In trying to determine when I could use him until days get longer and schools out, I asked about the Friday schedule. I asked him "if he had his nose in a computer on Friday?" he says, "not really, it's sort of a make-up day and most of us don't do anything". Then throw in the parents who opt to keep them home altogether without any real reason? and you have many home twiddling their collective thumbs IMO.
Get my shot at 4,20 today. ;)
Got my second Pfizer this A:M, so far so good, wife gets second Moderna Sat.
Well today my wife and I got our first jab and our second one will be April first that s got me worried is it really on 4-1-21 or is just April fools joke. Randy
Went to bed early, maybe a little tired, bit of a chill ,fine this morning no problem 8) .Hope the wife fares as well on sat. after her 2nd.
Took the J&J shot Tuesday early A.M. by 19:30 I was wiped-out. I went to bed and had about 15 minutes of cold sweat, woke-up at 06:00 Wednesday
feeling a little shaky with a mild, dull headache, took an Ibuprofen and a vitamin water, felt pretty good by lunch. Back to full speed by Thursday.
Stay safe out there,
D
Was fortunate enough to get dose 2 of pfizer last Fri.
Sore arm for about 36 hours and iffen any remember ( I do but was too young so definitely made fun of ) the Geritiol commercials - that tired and run down feeling - hah note to self - best not to tempt fate .
And the good news is I still have some memory cells - who the heck remembers 50 - 60 year old commercials . . . plus back to normal after a couple days .
Curious was I bled a drop after dose 1 but after dose 2 - no bandaid - no blood - figured I was already dead just my mind being a little slow to catch on . I didn't even feel the dose 2 shot - thought maybe it missed me as I could hardly find where a needle might have gone when I got home - leastways till the soreness developed .
Here is the latest roll out for us in New Brunswick. Looks like the earliest for me is in June. I'll just call the pharmacy for an appointment for the first dose.
COVID-19 vaccines (https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/corporate/promo/covid-19/nb-vaccine.html#rollout)
My wife gave 35 doses of J&J yesterday at Walmart. they are out now so none this week, till they get more here in our town.
Well, we are all topped off on bat juice and looking good ::) Supposed to be 2 weeks until it gets good and settled in.Hope so .
I'm scheduled for my first Pfizer on Wed the 17th. Looking forward to it, getting out and spending some money. Somebody has to help the struggling Hotels Restaurants Fishing charters, etc.
My wife got her first shot about a week ago, farmer's market folks were grouped with grocery front line. Interestingly the cashier at Walmart that day had not been vaccinated yet, that ain't right.
This came in for me, if you're in VA this has some contacts;
PRE-REGISTERED AS OF: 2/5/2021
REFERENCE CODE: ------
Hello Don,
This is a weekly reminder from the Virginia Department of Health's COVID Information Center that you are pre-registered for the COVID-19 vaccine in Virginia. You do not need to take any action at this time.
When it is your turn for a vaccination, you will receive an email, phone call or text message from your local health department or a partner provider (such as a hospital, pharmacy, or physician) with information to schedule your appointment.
The country still needs more vaccine supply to be able to get shots in the arms of everyone who wants them. Based on CDC guidelines, Virginia prioritizes those most at risk for exposure to COVID-19 or severe illness if infected. Unfortunately, it may take weeks or longer before everyone currently on the waitlist is able to make an appointment. Although it is not possible to provide an estimated appointment date at this time, we will send you regular reminders that you are on the pre-registration list.
When your appointment becomes available, there will be no charge. State and local agencies will never call, email or text you to ask for your social security number or immigration status in connection with vaccination. Visit www.vdh.virginia.gov/covid-19-vaccine (https://lnks.gd/l/eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJidWxsZXRpbl9saW5rX2lkIjoxMDAsInVyaSI6ImJwMjpjbGljayIsImJ1bGxldGluX2lkIjoiMjAyMTAzMTMuMzY5MzUzNjEiLCJ1cmwiOiJodHRwczovL3d3dy52ZGgudmlyZ2luaWEuZ292L2NvdmlkLTE5LXZhY2NpbmUifQ.SC9WfNOas9IIM-FzttF01AF9FkJxTMJS14MTXQjDqVM/s/1441773087/br/99883881132-l) or www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines (https://lnks.gd/l/eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJidWxsZXRpbl9saW5rX2lkIjoxMDEsInVyaSI6ImJwMjpjbGljayIsImJ1bGxldGluX2lkIjoiMjAyMTAzMTMuMzY5MzUzNjEiLCJ1cmwiOiJodHRwczovL3d3dy5jZGMuZ292L2Nvcm9uYXZpcnVzLzIwMTktbmNvdi92YWNjaW5lcyJ9.6j8BS96NDkze1UvxFBu0gW2gB3X8ljKlXgHQFa0Nkmo/s/1441773087/br/99883881132-l) for additional information, including frequently asked questions and details about vaccine eligibility.
You may also check the list online at any time at vaccinate.virginia.gov (http://vaccinate.virginia.gov/) using your reference code, email address, or phone number. If you have any questions, you may call 877-VAX-IN-VA (877-829-4682) seven days a week, from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Service is available immediately in English and Spanish, with real-time interpreter services available in any of more than 100 languages as needed. TTY users dial 7-1-1.
Arm sore some. could not sleep on it, good now. #2 shot 4-8-21 8)
Quote from: doc henderson on March 11, 2021, 10:30:37 AM
You are correct. if the outcomes and symptoms of the vaccine were as bad as the disease, we would not give it. When I read the post by @Walnut Beast (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=49695) I interpreted it as sarcastic. I saw the words doctor, talk show, upside down banana eating in the post and felt he was simultaneously discounting what was said. Of course I do not know the doctors name or the name of the talk show, and I eat my bananas from the stem down. :) I did not see a smiley so was not sure, but decided to "let it go". clotting problems are for certain present in post covid patients for months after the disease. If a death occurs in proximity to a vaccine, it is investigated but not yet attributed to cause. I really have not heard of anyone dying "from the vaccine" . If you are 100 years old, a life insurance policy would cost you more than the face value since the agent has to make commission and the chance of death in the year of the policy is close to 100%. Even if the vaccine caused some morbidity and mortality, the goal would be to reduce that rate to significantly less than the disease. maybe WB could clarify if it was an outrageous example of dumb stuff out there, or if he thought it was legit. use the smileys people. lol
This was the main headline on Drudge. The Doctor that was on was serious about the topics. Here is my opinion on things and I'm no expert. I remember when a few cases of the Corona Virus popped up in the US and then more everyday we were told by very prominent doctors and experts it was STUPID to wear a mask and you could be doing yourself more harm. I thought and told people at the time that is absolutely CRAZY how it couldn't help. Masks are and have been used in hospitals 🏥 for years. So my point is. I'm supposed to believe what the so called experts say. Do I think the vaccine is good for older people. Yes I do. Am I getting it no. Do I think all the facts are out there or the doctors have all the facts NO. Let's think about this when you watch tv you see tons of commercials from law firms about drugs that everybody has heard of that were supposed to be SAFE but later caused death in some cases or health problems. Pharmaceutical companies competed on getting there drugs to doctors, name of the game was sales and they compensated them for that. I doubt and it's been proven doctors didn't have all the facts. Probably not very many people know this MEDICAL ERROR deaths are at the top of lists for causes of death. This isn't anything against health care workers. Just facts! I support all the health care workers and people that protect this country. But I'm going to have my own opinions.
This Drug isn't in the country yet they say but it's causing concern.
Portugal and Spain join 15 European countries suspending roll-out of Oxford's AstraZeneca vaccine amid blood clot fears while Italy launches MANSLAUGHTER probe into death - but EU health chiefs back Boris in insisting the jab IS safe
yes, all drugs with any benefit, have potential risk. let me say they are dangerous and why you need a license and in some cases a federal license (DEA). People tout natural cures as being safe, and usually the benefit is also small or less. No we do not know all the facts yet, Doctors that are well educated in epidemiology and public health, and work for the government, rarely take care of actual patients, and yet help make policy decisions. The disease is very contagious and relatively deadly, especially to certain groups. The blood clot issue is huge with the actual disease as well. It is no longer legal for a drug rep to even buy a meal for a Doctor. we might get a crappy pen (lasts less than an hour) or a note pad with advertising on the back. Our oath says, "first do no harm". I will not go too long on the law commercials, but it is why drugs are so expensive, and hard to get approved in this country. I do not want to die from the disease or the vaccine. it makes it hard to know what to do. I still think the risk is far less taking the vaccine. (at least the three we use here). In ten years we will know so much more.
I agree with you doc. I really respect you and what you do in this day and age when you have so much red tape to cut through when you are the good guy helping people and saving lives
Thanks Walnut, that means a lot!
I respect the concern for the unknown with vaccines. Sure there is a chance that something will come up down the road that is caused by the vaccine, but I doubt it. It's a vaccine and not a drug. We have vaccines to thank for the eradication of smallpox and polio. What we know for sure is that if 1,000,000 people get Covid, many thousands will die. What we think is that if the same million were to get vaccinated, theres a chance that a handful will die from side effects of the vaccine. That's why I take my chance with the vaccine. Odds are on my side. Also, there are many unknowns about long term effects of Covid, but there is a lot of info saying people who survive may have lifelong complications. There could be a situation like chicken pox where you get chicken pox and then many years down the road you get shingles because of it.
Finally got appt to get my first dose at the local Kroger Pharmacy in about 30 minutes 8). Second dose April 13th so safe to say it won't be the new J&J one and done. KY has been a challenge to get an appointment for us rural types.
From the radio today, there have been around 40 blood clot related deaths in the, I think, 17 million vaccinated with AstraZeneca. This is the same as would be expected in that sized group in the same time frame normally.
These kind of reports remind me of the saying, "If you drink milk you're gonna die" ... which isn't to say the milk has anything to do with the dying.
Just got my first Pfizer this morning. Well organized, in and out in 30 minutes including the 15 minute observation period. Next time I'l remember to bring a book. :P
If I die I'll try and update this post to let everyone know. Time permitting I'll leave an entry in VAERS.
Wife and I just got our second dose at 11:00 am this morning. She thinks her arm is sore but mine is fine so far. We will see how she does over the next couple of days.
Just talked to our son and our 12 y/o gd is out of school for next few days because one of her classmates at school has C-19 and they are restricting any who might have been exposed.
Our folks have done a fine job giving the shots. Very well organized. We had a PFC from the Nat'l Guard at the parking lot checking and several other old timers parking cars. I think it was a firefighter who gave me my shot. No complaints from me for our state's handing of the vaccine. Apparently they are shooting up about 105-110 % of the vaccine due to the extra dose or two they get out of each bottle. I think everyone from 16 y/o and older can now sign up and they call and schedule as the vaccine becomes available.
We got a call late in the afternoon they had extra vaccine and were looking for anybody who could take it so we made several calls. I don't know if anybody was able to go down and get a shot or not. I guess it was just extra dose left in the bottle.
This morning the told us this batch was a different lot number than we got 3 weeks ago. I guess they track that real close. No issues for me. They gave us a blue "I got my shots" card but we had them put it in our yellow international shot record too.
One question they asked the first time was Ethnicity. I told them to check the "unknown" box for me. I figure it is none of their business and don't trust how that info was going to be used.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 17, 2021, 08:09:40 PMI guess it was just extra dose left in the bottle.
That's my understanding too. The vaccine bottles are supposed to hold 5 doses, but it's better to add slightly more, rather than have some bottles come up short. If they are careful they can often get 6 shots out of a 5 dose vial. So if they have 50 shots lined up for the day, they might have 5 or 10 doses left over, so they would try and keep a "short notice" list of folks that can come in and make use of that leftover before it expires.
If it means ~10% more folks get vaccinated then it's a good idea.
Article in the news here today about scientists studying how Covid affects the brain, which relates to the loss of smell, strokes and "long covid".
Covid-19's 'striking' impact on brain includes inflammation, blood vessel damage | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300254806/covid19s-striking-impact-on-brain-includes-inflammation-blood-vessel-damage)
No conclusive results, just that damage to the brain is clearly observable in people that have died of the virus, and therefore likely to be present in some folks that have survived as well.
Over 35 hours since my second shot and no noticeable reactions or affects. My wife says her arm is a little sore but only when you ask her. I think the rest of the time she has forgotten all about it.
WV, that sounds like a familiar tune....
My mother-in-law (99 years old) got her first shot a week and a half ago. It was the Pfizer vaccine and she says the only side-effect was a little fatigue for a few days.
Got my first poke this morning of the Pfyser vaccine. Arm a bit tender so far but other wise no issues.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on March 16, 2021, 11:05:44 AM
I respect the concern for the unknown with vaccines. Sure there is a chance that something will come up down the road that is caused by the vaccine, but I doubt it. It's a vaccine and not a drug. We have vaccines to thank for the eradication of smallpox and polio. What we know for sure is that if 1,000,000 people get Covid, many thousands will die. What we think is that if the same million were to get vaccinated, theres a chance that a handful will die from side effects of the vaccine. That's why I take my chance with the vaccine. Odds are on my side. Also, there are many unknowns about long term effects of Covid, but there is a lot of info saying people who survive may have lifelong complications. There could be a situation like chicken pox where you get chicken pox and then many years down the road you get shingles because of it.
Well said!
I wish more people would evaluate on the relative probability for harm for each branched alternative action, dependent and independent.
I got my first Moderna vaccination this morning. I live just outside of Birmingham, Al in Jefferson County. I have been trying since early February to schedule an appointment in my area. I finally got an appointment scheduled at a Walmart in Jasper, Al (home of George "Goober Pyle" Lindsey) in Walker county, about 33 miles north of my home. I will get the booster shot in the third week of April.
I didn't even feel the stick of the needle as I was given the shot. 8) No adverse reactions as of yet!
Got my appointment for a first shot in NH on Wednesday. NH rolled out a new appointment system and tested it for a couple of weeks so the new system was supposed to ready for folks over 50 to sign up at 8AM today. It took me 2 1/2 hours to get an appointment. Once I finally got to the appointment page I think I was the third person to get a slot booked in my location for the next phase.
Most issues were forms bugs but no doubt the rush of signups didnt help. I tried three different browsers and had system crashes on occasion. Hopefully the vaccine site is up to speed when I show up as they have been running it for a month. I think this site does the double shots.
Good news is my wife and I went in Monday for our scheduled second Pfizer vaccinations. Only minor sore arm for both of us that resolved by today.
Shocking news is at my insistence we also were tested later Monday for Covid-19 and this morning we got a call from Mayo that we both were positive. They offered both of us monoclonal antibody infusions probably because of our age and comorbidities and we accepted. So we spent the afternoon in a Mayo facility away from the clinic in Rochester getting our infusions and waiting to make sure we had no adverse reactions. I was kept busy during my infusion on the telephone with a Mayo Doctor and then with a script reader with questions from the MN Dept of Health.
How did this happen you might ask? ::) Good question and we are still trying to understand the how. Neither of us has had any fevers but last week I had a one day nasal congestion and my wife had a minor cough. Reason for me requesting the test is we both were briefly exposed to two family members from Iowa that later tested positive for Covid and are having lingering symptoms. What symptoms we all had arrived on virtually the same day which was four days after we met here at home and in no public places. So we all apparently got infected at the same time but the source is unknown.
We currently experiencing no symptoms so we have been instructed to quarantine for 10 days from the first day of our minor symptoms and that time ends this weekend. I asked the Mayo Doctor if we should be retested and she said there was no point in it as we would test positive for 20-30 days after infection because we would be shedding dead viruses anyway.
Later the MN Dept of Health called and I carefully answered her questions but her list of symptoms did not include nasal congestion. So she instructed me that we had to quarantine 14 days from the day of our positive test and when I protested because the Mayo doctor had said 10 days from first symptom she said nasal congestion was not one of their symptoms. So when I protested and said I was going by what the Mayo doctor told me I could hear someone talking in the background and she said OK, we will accept that. All the travel and public places visited questions were negative answers so the source is a mystery.
So all is well, we are both feeling fine and we have no where to go anyway. I am still concerned about the ones from Iowa that apparently are having a difficult time but are slowly getting better. Both of those two are too young and/or fit to be eligible for the same treatment we got.
Gary, it's a sneaky virus for sure. Even though the vaccinations have started, it hasn't reached enough folks yet to put a lid on it.
Here in NZ the border controls are mostly working, but still finding 5-10 cases a day in quarantine, and the occasional leak through the isolation. Despite all the precautions an isolation worker caught the virus last week, and one of their family has shown a weak positive. They had only had one shot, and probably the same as you, got exposed before that, or didn't have full protection yet.
Hopefully the mild symptoms and antibody treatment will see you right :) MOST cases are mild, except for that ~5% or so that aren't.
Pulling for you and your wife Gary!
Sending virtual hugs. 🤗
Gary, there can be false + test results. It is complicated, but you will be + for the antibody from the shot, and + with antibody from the infusion. Most hospitals can send out for a test that can differentiate. The in house test is usually for total antibody. See if your doc can get a test to tell if you have antibodies from the disease. It is the Mayo for God sake. :) if you had the nasal test, it is for antigen ("dead" and or viable viral bodies).
Just an update, our daughter and her family are out of isolation and back at work as of yesterday. Lauren can smell again but no taste yet. Her husband who tested positive never had any symptoms, grandson "Eli" 17 months old also never showed symptoms. He is the little fellow in my avatar. Yesterday was his first day back at Papa and Nana's "daycare". He stays here four days a week and sure adds a positive note to our day!
Here is what I know. The test we took is the PCR test and it tests for the presence of actual virus. The nasal swab after it is shoved to the back of your head (seems that way at least) is then put in the test tube which has a solution that kills the virus. So the actual test looks for snippets of the DNA of the virus from the sample from your nose. Doesn't matter to the test if the virus is alive or dead but the virus cannot survive in the solution they use.
So therein lies the problem. Even if your body fights off the virus quickly, you can be shedding dead virus bodies for they say up to 20-30 days after infection. So the test cannot tell if you have an active infection, only that there are dead virus present in your nose. So as a result your symptoms are essential to a good diagnosis.
The other part of the problem is when they run the PCR they continue to amplify the results 30-40 times and that can result in false positives.
The inventor of the PCR test has come out stating they have, and are incorrectly using the test he designed; the 'cycles' tested at, are above the error rate; hence the widely published studies regarding error rates. As far as the virus DNA, Stanford, and other universities are suing I think the NIH, and others as they won't release any of the sequencing.
I don't know what good any of that will do now though, as we've got vaccine resistant strains being confirmed.
Quote from: Runningalucas on March 24, 2021, 11:35:11 AM
As far as the virus DNA, Stanford, and other universities are suing I think the NIH, and others as they won't release any of the sequencing.
I don't know what good any of that will do now though, as we've got vaccine resistant strains being confirmed.
That's total BS. Stick to facts you can back up.
ok guys. so all viruses are not alive. just packets of dna or rna in a membrane that can attach to cells (spike) and incorporate its genetic material, that turns on the factory to make more bits and pieces to make more virus. the name for pcr is polymerase chain reaction and it is how they take dna from a crime scene and amplify it so there is enough to test. all tests have false + and false - results. after years of study the results are known and further research will work out the bugs, or find a different reagent to react with the specific sequence of dna or the 3 dimensional structure of a protein. a good screening test, never misses a case, and casts a wide net. like for cancer. a good diagnostic test may have some false negative results, but when it is + it is highly reliable. (not many false +). Your false - test may be cause you got a nice nurse who did not want to make your nose feel like it is on fire. Many test have been refined over the years to have good sensitivity (never misses) and good specificity (always picks up if a certain material is present). this test will evolve over the next 20 years. it is also known that a test becomes worse (false + rate) if done on low probability patients. why you should not get a random test, but it becomes more reliable if you have symptoms. the antibodies in your body can be looked at to see if you really had infection by the virus, or just had the vaccine or just got the monoclonal antibody. or all three. Just like influenzae, if the virus changes, the vaccine will be adapted to get all or most of the new variants. Most of the companies work with major universities to do research and develop treatments. I do not know (have not looked) about lawsuits and lack of data sharing. @Gary C (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=18429) see if they can send off a fractionated antibody test. It will help solve the puzzle. since several of you tested +, it is prob. accurate.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 24, 2021, 02:12:20 PM
@Gary C (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=18429) see if they can send off a fractionated antibody test. It will help solve the puzzle. since several of you tested +, it is prob. accurate.
Mayo only does antibody testing for specific limited reasons and they do not recommend the tests for some weeks after an infection to allow for your immune system to fully develop the antibodies. Also the antibody tests presently available are not fully approved by the FDA though Mayo also recently came out with a new neutralizing antibody test but it will only be available to labs by June. I actually was tested back in July 2020 for SARS-CoV-2 IgG Ab because of a mystery fever and was found to be negative for any antibodies to CoV-2.
The mystery you surmised was at first due to a lack of any fevers or major symptoms by all family members and that was mostly resolved when my wife and I both tested positive. The remaining mystery is about the source of the infection. Of the eight family members that got together briefly on that day, one is fully vaccinated and my wife and I were half vaccinated and we are very isolated. Two who drove here are extreme isolationists and germaphobes but stopped on the way to pickup takeout food. Of the other three local one family members one has now tested negative. The two that picked up the takeout food apparently got the worst of the infection and are the only ones to still have lingering symptoms. So the lingering mystery is where to point the finger of suspicion for the source of the infection and if I told you there was not some family controversy over the source I'd be lying.
Funny vaccination side effects. I got my second maderna shot 3 weeks ago. Had the expected reaction, lasted about 36 hours. Now 3 weeks later I'm having re-occurences of the side effects, identical to the original effects. Usually last 3 or 4 hours. Worst part is the extreme fatigue. Probably just me, I'm 84 years old and prone to medical funnies.
I gave blood a few days back and they tested for antibodies. Apparently I have not had covid, which is a good thing.
I get my first Moderna test today. The vaccine rollout sure seems to have picked up speed.
yes. all the hard work and planning done over the past year is coming to fruition. ;) :)
Wife and I getting second Moderna today.
Lots more available here now.
Hoping for no side effects
Polk County, Texas, high 7 day average new cases per day, 9 on March 3rd, and 7 day average of 1 death per day. Since March 18th, seven day average 2 cases a day and 7 day average of 0 deaths per day. In a county of some 55,000 folks, many retiree's.
Still waiting in Pennsylvania...
In MN they just announced that starting Tuesday everyone over the age of 16 is eligible to get a vaccination. In IA I believe it will be by April 5 and over 18 are eligible. They are not saying you can get your vaccination, only that you are eligible to get on the schedule when vaccines are available.
How will we know if the vaccine is effective in the long run? Survival rate goes from 98.7 to 98.8? A recent meme not funny to 1.3.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on March 26, 2021, 04:11:29 PMHow will we know if the vaccine is effective in the long run?
The hope is that enough people get vaccinated that the virus simply dies out. If the virus is no longer circulating it doesn't matter if your immunity wears off after a couple of years. If the virus isn't actively circulating in the population, you can't catch it.
The worry is that pockets of it will continue to reproduce and create more new mutations. If that happens it may end up being annual booster shots for a while?
That's why it's important to get most of the population vaccinated, even if many individuals are low risk. The more cases left circulating the higher the chance of new variants and fresh outbreaks.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on March 26, 2021, 04:11:29 PMSurvival rate goes from 98.7 to 98.8?
no that's not right.
with vaccine you have like 95% of not getting sick enough to take chances with a virus that has 99% survival rate.
Like a 100% unless there are other underlining issues at play.
I'm not any authority on this.
JJ
After vaccine:
The way to look at this (after few IPAs) is 0.05 chance of infection, and 0.01 chance of survival.
Is now 0.0005 or 0.05% chance of serious infection, where before it was 1%.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 26, 2021, 09:01:35 AM
yes. all the hard work and planning done over the past year is coming to fruition. ;) :)
True, very true. So it was an interesting experience, had it in Culpepper VA. Lots of people in line but in 2 mins I was getting stabbed. 15 mins to wait, out the door. Very well done. Average age was much like me, a few younger people. Only saw 1 person over 70. They were doing 30 at a time, dance music going in the background, trying to make it fun for the staff I guess.
Quote from: JJ on March 26, 2021, 09:12:49 PM
After vaccine:
The way to look at this (after few IPAs) is 0.05 chance of infection, and 0.01 chance of survival.
Is now 0.0005 or 0.05% chance of serious infection, where before it was 1%.
Even better, because once most of the population gets vaccinated, your chances are actually being infected is much reduced. That's the idea of the whole vaccine program. Polio is still a deadly disease if you happen to catch it, but your chances of dying from it are very remote, because most of the population has been immunised.
The survival ratio doesn't matter any more if no one is actually getting infected.
Rita is finally getting her first shot on Sunday. It took her a month of on the puter and calling every day to get this far. Ma. doesn't really do a very good job of setting up appointments for people who live in the country >:(. She has to drive 56 miles down the Springfield just to get these shots. My Multiple Meyloma Dr. told me not to get it yet as there's not enough info for blood cancer patience's yet :(.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on March 26, 2021, 04:11:29 PM
How will we know if the vaccine is effective in the long run?
Well ... Pfizer, for one, is tracking the participants in the phase 3 trials for 24 months after their inoculation. If they start seeing more infections in those people, it'll give the rest of us a few month's warning.
Saw a news report today that said it's expected that 30% of the US population will choose not to receive a vaccine. How will that effect the spread?
It will be slowed, but less likely to drop off completely. If at that level, we also see some drop off in the summer, we may be good. if enough variation occurs with mutation, then it can becomes a yearly vaccine (with slight variation in the vaccine). we really do not know, and remember the point we are at now would have usually taken 10 years. The vaccine will continue to improve and over time (hopefully) be established as safe. As well, you may not be able to travel by air or ship with out it. It may be like at work when something happens and many say they are going to quit. the reality of needed income and insurance kicks in, and very few actually quit. At least the vaccinated are protected form lethal disease. most likely everyone will either get the disease or the vaccine until it hopefully drops off the radar. some animals carry rabies, but we vaccinate our pets, and I think the last case of rabies in a dog in Ks was like 1932. do not quote me on that date, but is remains prevalent in skunks but the vaccine is very effective. @Nebraska (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=45256) . If it is discovered that there are serious side effects, then more folks may hesitate, and further research & development will have to be done. You are really choosing between the vaccine with limited side effects, or the disease. young people are relatively safe getting the disease, and they should be doing it to protect the vulnerable all around them. all the vaccines are still considered drugs under investigation. when fully approved, it will be required of many employees in health care and the military.
is covid still going on out there? This is the longest anything made in china has ever lasted.
Good one Mike! ;)
I wish all of my vaccines in my arsenal worked as well as rabies vaccine. The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines for covid 19 are very good within my understanding. That's why I participated. I think we will see yearly boosters with antigenic tweaks like influenza vaccines, if the virus can mutate fast enough to keep ahead of the herd immunity. My last check of the Covid data for was that hospitalizations are down to less than 10% of their peak numbers around here a couple weeks ago. I don't understand why that fact isn't big news but I don't hear it, (no comments past this observation)......
As far as rabies virus goes our pricipal vector is skunks, but we also see it in bats as well. I have in 27 years diagnosed two horses, a heifer, several unvaccinated cats. Last positives were a couple bats if i remember correctly. The rabies diagnostic lab we use is in Kansas, testing is free here if there is human exposure. I don't recall ever having a positive dog, but thankfully people are pretty good about vaccinating their pets. We have seen several positive cases in one year the may not see one for a few years. Not Covid related just FYI stuff regarding rabies virus.
Kansas state university is a rival to University of Kansas , but a great ag/vet school. The only paper sited in the book on sugaring I got, in the chapter on walnut syrup, was done at KSU.
Polk County, Texas, 2 deaths after 14 days of no deaths.
My stepdaughter, mid 50s, had her first Pfizer shot Friday. Saturday her legs were swollen and very painfull. Sunday her feet turned blue and her husband took her to emergency room thinking she had a blood clot from recent hip surgery. After tests it was determined that the probable cause was the covid shot and was advised not to take the second shot. She us home now and doing fine.
Apparently even one dose of the Pfizer gives about 80% protection, the 2nd is a booster to get to ~95%. So hopefully she gets decent protection from the single dose.
We just got locked down again for at least three weeks due to a spike in cases after being on the verge of a cautious return to normal. :-\ Apparently people in my age group are eligible for the first shot sometime in April but so far not dates are being made public, it is very frustrating. I just want to get it over with.
Ontario will also see more lockdowns as the third (or is it the fourth?) wave rolls in.
Sawguy21, this next wave is a variant of the first and is more harmful to young folk than the previous virus.
A doctor told me that the odds are 1 in 5 of death, if us "older" folks get a bad case of the Corona. I'm starting to think that distancing and masks are the new normal - that getting past this is not in the cards. Putting it behind us may not be possible for a long long time, if at all.
Is this "Debbie Downer" thinking? I don't think so, it's just me trying to be adaptable to the changing reality around me.
Quote from: Andries on March 30, 2021, 12:48:11 PMPutting it behind us may not be possible for a long long time, if at all. Is this "Debbie Downer" thinking? I don't think so, it's just me trying to be adaptable to the changing reality around me.
Not enough people have been vaccinated yet to put a lid on the spread of infection, still lots of folks out there that can catch and transmit it. Yet some are assuming that because the vaccinations have started, or they personally have had the shots, that it's all over. This has lead to an upswing in the number of cases in many countries. It's realistically going to take most of 2021 to get most of the population (of the world) vaccinated.
We aren't under any lock-down / distancing / mask regulations here, but the border travel is heavily restricted / mandatory isolation etc, and realistically that will be staying in place for most of this year. Vaccinations have started here, but probably another 6 months to get to everyone that wants the shots. Until then there is a risk of more flare-ups of the virus.
I'm optimistic, but realise it's not over yet.
I had my first shot today Pfizer.
I almost didn't get it.
I can't wear a mask it gives me panic attacks.
I get to the place and have the first appointment.
There are already 60 people and coming in fast.
I started having a panic attack . I had to go into survival mode to get the shot and get out of there.
The Amish community in Lancaster County, PA has seen a decrease in cases to all but zero and they don't follow the mask / distance rules within their community. They also don't have the internet or TV at home. Correlation?
More likely that they don't frequent crowded bars and restaurants etc?
If no one in your "circle" has the virus, then you wont catch it, and if you mostly keep your interactions within that group, it's low risk.
The Amish stopped church and social gatherings and schools for one month last year, and then they just went back to their lives.
They seldom seek medical attention and I haven't heard of a single individual getting tested for covid. If someone has a bad cold or flu they doctor from home, and even if people died they handle that from home as well.
Who would know? My Amish are in a county that is next to Lancaster.
Quote from: Ianab on March 30, 2021, 06:11:00 PM
More likely that they don't frequent crowded bars and restaurants etc?
If no one in your "circle" has the virus, then you wont catch it, and if you mostly keep your interactions within that group, it's low risk.
Amish are outside a lot where aerosols rarely transmit. The kids go to their own Amish schools where no other students attend. Amish don't need to alter their life.
The Amish in Lancaster County are around non Amish just as much as Amish people. Their daily life isn't much different than the non Amish in that area. A lot of the Amish have jobs that require them to interact with other people.
The Amish in Oxford just had a huge mud sale (auction) and there were a lot of English people there. They are mystified that all the auctions held by the fire companies were canceled last year and this year.
They are conducting business as usual.
Social situations do seem to have the biggest chances of spreading the virus. Even during our strict lock-down essential businesses including supermarkets were open (and busy). But there were no outbreaks traced to supermarkets.
I suspect that the Amish aren't immune to the virus, but their lifestyle simply makes it less likely they will catch it, or pass it on. The larger outbreaks here were centred around a restaurant, a pub, a church, a school and of course a rest home. If you can avoid those places, your risk is a LOT less.
My nearest neighbors are Amish, we are York County which borders Lancaster County but with the Susquehanna River separating. Last fall the Amish husband got sick and tested positive but recovered and neither his wife or any of the 6 kids got sick, husband and wife in late 20s age wise. He said he knew of others that got covid but none really bad.
My point is that clearly there is a population of folks who interact with everyone else at work, stores, etc, do not follow social distancing, masks, no weddings, no church, etc and if anything they have a lower reported rate of Covid than the general population. One would think that if Covid was to be passed to any single member of the Amish population within a church from an outside interaction then it would spread amazingly fast among the population given their disregard of "the rules".
This virus is so dangerous that Canada is being locked down again, and people are loosing their liberty, business, etc - yet this unique sub group, that can be identified, demonstrates just the opposite of what "the science" claims.
One must ask why, and I am asking why.
Quote from: Southside on March 30, 2021, 10:44:44 PMThis virus is so dangerous that Canada is being locked down again, and people are loosing their liberty, business, etc - yet this unique sub group, that can be identified, demonstrates just the opposite of what "the science" claims. One must ask why, and I am asking why.
Agreed. There seem to be activities that are higher risk than others. Going on a cruise ship = high risk for example. There are some that might appear high risk, but in fact aren't (going to the supermarket for example). So some of the lock-down measures might be a "blunt hammer" approach?
It's more about refining the "science". We know the virus gets transmitted person to person, but sometimes a case won't pass the virus on to anyone, not even close family. Another case can spread to 10 more people. What's the differences? I'm just theorising that the Amish folks aren't big on parties / nightlife / travel etc, which seem to be when the large transmission events occur.
With the low case numbers here, and the success at actually eliminating the virus (several times), we have a better picture of the person to person transmissions (in ~99% of cases the transmission has been traced person to person). So it's interesting to compare with the Amish figures / actions, as it might allow better fine tuning of control measures. They are doing "something" different from everyone else, what is it?
Folks keep telling you that the Amish routinely interact in larger groups on a regular basis as part of their lifestyle. Most people would, given the fact that it's their only entertainment.
Church numbers for Amish is over 200 people counting children. The mud sale was over 500. Amish young people in Rumspringa age have groups that number in the hundreds as well, and that is a weekly gathering that lasts from Friday night to Sunday morning. Every wedding and every funeral is attended by hundreds as well. They have Sunday night "singings" indoors that last four hours of church groups plus visiting friends and relatives.
They are not isolated from the English either. They have businesses, use taxis, are very active in volunteering at the firehouses and they shop in local businesses, and go to restaurants.
They travel frequently by the bus loads to visit other Amish events and relatives in Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio and New York.
They don't vaccinate anyone either. I know of instances of stepping on rusty nails and getting fevers and very sick but they only use herbal medicines and they recover.
Southside is on to something here and it's a legitimate puzzle or we've been sold a bill of goods.
Upon reflection let's talk about what they do that's generally different than our lifestyle. For instance, they are outside (unmasked) for hours each day. Hitching up the team, hanging laundry, working in the yard or garden. Field work with a team of horses without a cab over. No air conditioning and gas or wood heat. No electric and no sitting down until the end of the day. Children walk to school.
If vitamin D is a factor in fending off this virus, it sure would be interesting to test their blood levels against English levels.
They drink only raw milk and make their own butter and yogurt. Their diet is very vegetable oriented and they fill a sandwich with everything except the sink. They make their own bread and treats and can everything. Meat is local and they buy only from Amish raised hogs, chicken, turkeys and beef. They rely heavily on venison to feed their family. Most do their own butchering. Outside processed food is very limited. Their fruit is locally obtained too.
Y'all feel free to jump in if I've missed anything.
Quote from: Roxie on March 31, 2021, 06:41:07 AM
Upon reflection let's talk about what they do that's generally different than our lifestyle. For instance, they are outside (unmasked) for hours each day. Hitching up the team, hanging laundry, working in the yard or garden. Field work with a team of horses without a cab over. No air conditioning and gas or wood heat. No electric and no sitting down until the end of the day. Children walk to school.
If vitamin D is a factor in fending off this virus, it sure would be interesting to test their blood levels against English levels.
They drink only raw milk and make their own butter and yogurt. Their diet is very vegetable oriented and they fill a sandwich with everything except the sink. They make their own bread and treats and can everything. Meat is local and they buy only from Amish raised hogs, chicken, turkeys and beef. They rely heavily on venison to feed their family. Most do their own butchering. Outside processed food is very limited. Their fruit is locally obtained too.
Y'all feel free to jump in if I've missed anything.
Has very little to do with what they eat. It is all about aerosol transmission. Wind and UV rays make it nearly impossible for that to happen outside.
i touched every filthy diesel pump from NJ to miami and sat on those same toilets through the peak of covid outbreak without getting it. my wife got it and i still kissed her goodnight, never got it. i only wore a mask a handful of times, the south isnt into that forceful stuff.
youre gonna die of something, get busy living before that something shows up. we still shake hands out here. im not letting this non sense take away my humanity. look up all the parasites you can catch if you want to really be scared of something.
Quote from: brianJ on March 31, 2021, 08:00:10 AM
Has very little to do with what they eat.
Harvard studies and most doctors would disagree.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/nutrition-and-immunity/ (https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/nutrition-and-immunity/)
Roxie - You are correct for those that work in the farming or timber / lumber industry, but quite a few also work in RV manufacturing and other similar settings, yet the case count isn't there. As you demonstrated the community still engages in social gatherings, a party by any other name, community events, and typically live in large family units. They shop at Wal-Mart, use modern transportation such as trains when necessary (and approved), so the exposure is there.
Along the same lines, why have the homeless who live in very poor conditions, have little in the way of sanitary measures, and often have comorbilities, and don't eat well, also not suffered from the devastating impacts that are only prevented by removing ones liberty?
I live in what has become a predominantly Mennonite community and work with and grade lumber for them regularly. I am around them regularly and know the elders and leaders in the community and what I am curious about is how you think you know whether or not they have contracted the virus when they do not recomend testing in other words what are your numbers based on ? Just asking??
Well my wife and I got our second Pfizer shot yesterday. We both have the headaches back that lasted about 2 weeks after the first and are just feeling tired and not right today. The area I got my shot feels like Mike Tyson was punching me in the arm all night and hope it let's up soon. I think tomorrow will be a better day. Glad to be able to hang out with the grandkids in 2 weeks. The worst part for us was just the stress from anticipating what the worst case side effects could be for my wife with sjogrens but luckily she didn't have any bad reactions. Back to living life. Being a hermit wasn't bad though, got a lot done in my shop.
Bruno if you have a problem with masks ask if they have the plastic face shields that are also acceptable. I saw several at our location yesterday.
Yesterday I talked to a friend who still logs every day and he caught the Covid last September and was very sick for most of a month, lost taste and smell and did not recover fully till he was given that nasty prednisone. He has no clue as to how he got it.
As I related previously my wife and I both tested positive one day after getting our second vaccine shot and some 10 days after a family get together at our home. There were eight people there and we still have no clue as to who or where the bug came into our gathering. Only two of the attendees had strong symptoms and they are the two that practice extreme measures of protection against the virus. The rest of us had little to no symptoms and are normal today.
Another old friend that I went to high school with got the virus and spent most of September in the hospital and is now recovered and he has no clue where he got the virus. Plus his wife escaped completely.
So I too have a lot of questions for anyone that claims to know the how of this virus being transmitted. The only thing we know is this Sars-covid-2 virus is or has been designed to be extremely transmittable.
Quote from: Gary_C on April 01, 2021, 02:47:24 AMThe only thing we know is this Sars-covid-2 virus is or has been designed to be extremely transmittable.
We don't KNOW this. The Common Cold is extremely transmittable too, just not very dangerous, so we live with it. This virus isn't as contagious as the Common Cold, but is more dangerous. SARS and MERS were basically "warning shots" of what could happen. MERS was a VERY dangerous virus, but died out because it didn't transmit very well.
NZ has had very few cases, and if there is an outbreak the person to person transmission can be traced. So it's pretty well understood what the risk factors are, and some very "unlikely" transmission links have been found. Like the only link between case 1 and 2 is #1 got coffee at a shop beside where #2 lives. Maybe #1 coughed as they passed on the street, or they touched the same door handle? Others are more obvious, case 1 went to Church and infected case 2,3,4, and 5 there. (Closed space, extended contact, loud singing). Every case here is genetically tested to ensure it's in the same "cluster". If a different variant turns up, then it's a different source, alarm bells go off and they try and trace it.
In the US no one is sure how they got infected as there are still too many cases to test and trace every one.
The worry is that the next virus could be both more transmittable AND more dangerous!!!
Have we learnt anything from this pandemic? Because there will be more in the future.
Quote from: Ianab on April 01, 2021, 03:47:15 AM
This virus isn't as contagious as the Common Cold,
I couldn't disagree more. If that were true then the Common Cold would not have all but disappeared this season under the strict mask, social distancing and hand washing guidelines while Covid-19 still persists.
No one tracks the common cold cases. People get a running nose / sneezing / sore throat etc all the time, and still have over the last year. Almost no one goes to the Dr for a cold, but having school age kids and a Kindy teacher wife, there is NO doubt that cold viruses are still in circulation. Possibly less because few new strains have been bought into the country, and better hygiene / distancing would slow it down. But that's only personal anecdotal evidence. We have all had mild cold symptoms at various times over the last year, so at least some of those viruses are still in circulation.
That's very different from Influenza. That's a different and specific disease, and positive cases DO get reported. But the control measures for Covid has pretty much stamped out the spread of Influenza. Last year NZ recorded 5 cases of actual influenza. Vs ~2000 of Covid. Same control measures in place, so that suggest that Covid is more infectious than Influenza?
Hence my thinking it's less infectious than the common cold, but more infectious (and dangerous) than the current strains of Influenza.
we have seen hardly any rsv, and influenza. hard to document the prevalence of colds as stated. children are different in that they are born with a naïve immune system. they have their moms premade antibodies and they last till about 5 months. people tend to safeguard infants as well. so not as much infection in the first 5 months. but from 5 months to 5 years, kids get about 100 common viral bugs. that is 20 a year and if they all lasted 5 days (they don't) they would be sick about 4 months out of a year. we are seeing much less. thank good ness since if we had in addition to covid, it would have been much worse. Most pediatricians go through a few years of being re-infected as they are exposed all day every day with common viruses. most viral infections are dependent on viral load, and if you are immune it may take a larger viral load to get a perceivable infection. you immune system is stopping infection and in fact curing cancer everyday. Most viruses like influenzae that change year to year, still have some common antigens so you are partly immune from prev. years. that is why this covid virus (there are many other corona viruses) hit everyone so hard. I have wondered if kids get it less, cause they have had recent other corona viruses (colds).
Quote from: brianJ on March 30, 2021, 07:40:25 PM
Quote from: Ianab on March 30, 2021, 06:11:00 PM
More likely that they don't frequent crowded bars and restaurants etc?
If no one in your "circle" has the virus, then you wont catch it, and if you mostly keep your interactions within that group, it's low risk.
Amish are outside a lot where aerosols rarely transmit. The kids go to their own Amish schools where no other students attend. Amish don't need to alter their life.
I se them often in walmart and other retail. I don't see the reality to them not being in contact outside their sect? They shop with their kids too. I have noticed some older Amish husbands who were apparently "staying tight with their wife" at medical appointments- maybe a modesty thing? I also see Amish & Mennonite ladies shopping w/o the men. Many of the females are very pale and sure don't look outdoorsy to me. of course they do ride their buggies and get outdoors more than some folks.
Quote from: brianJ on March 31, 2021, 08:00:10 AM
Quote from: Roxie on March 31, 2021, 06:41:07 AM
Upon reflection let's talk about what they do that's generally different than our lifestyle. For instance, they are outside (unmasked) for hours each day. Hitching up the team, hanging laundry, working in the yard or garden. Field work with a team of horses without a cab over. No air conditioning and gas or wood heat. No electric and no sitting down until the end of the day. Children walk to school.
If vitamin D is a factor in fending off this virus, it sure would be interesting to test their blood levels against English levels.
They drink only raw milk and make their own butter and yogurt. Their diet is very vegetable oriented and they fill a sandwich with everything except the sink. They make their own bread and treats and can everything. Meat is local and they buy only from Amish raised hogs, chicken, turkeys and beef. They rely heavily on venison to feed their family. Most do their own butchering. Outside processed food is very limited. Their fruit is locally obtained too.
Y'all feel free to jump in if I've missed anything.
Has very little to do with what they eat. It is all about aerosol transmission. Wind and UV rays make it nearly impossible for that to happen outside.
The ones I've been around were not especially healthy eaters! If a 3/4" slab of baloney for a.m. break, noon break and aft break washed down with mtn Dew clone from DG is healthy, then I guess they are? At Walmart I observe there carts and see plenty of junk food, store bought crappy breads and such. I also see store bought milk, butter, etc., Amish and Mennonites both.
most studies about physical exercise say it is good. they deem that working in the yard and around the house does not count...except for the Amish. they work hard enough and consistently enough, that they are the exception. Weight is like balancing a check book. I have known over weight Amish, but most are not. the women tend to be "medium. not skinny and not fat. they have lower levels of heart disease ect. they also do not get as excited if an elderly person is dying. they take them home and take care of them. they are not perfect, but get respect from me. the younger ones are less traditional. the Japanese had hardly any heart disease, so they had a higher rate of cancer. you have to eventually die from something. now in our country they have obesity and heart attacks. livin the dream. :) when burn 3 K calories a day, you can eat more. fat and calories are bad if it pushes you over the output and has to be stored.
Doc, your comments about the Amish holds true with my 2 neighboring Amish families!
Tammy and I had decided not to get a shot, but then we decided to have the pigroast, so, still being responsible adults, knew we would have to get it for that single reason and that is why. I let Tammy make the decision and said I would do what ever she did because we are to competitive to one go one way and one go the other. ;) We decided this last Friday. She made some calls and got us on the list. This morning I got a call saying there was a cancellation, would I want to come in early, I asked if they were going to take us both, she said we only have one shot for now, I asked Tammy if she wanted to get it or wait, she said she would take it. When we got to Mt. Pleasant about 1pm today I got another call saying they had a shot now for me. We were out of there by 1:30. we stopped for a couple errands and came home.
I'm currently feeling okay other than I spent the whole day doing nothing. NOTHING. That ain't me. Tammy is in bed with a bad headache. Take this the way you want, but I was fine just social distancing like I do most of my life.
hope and pray you both are feelin great in day or two.
Jeff,
What vaccine did you get. My wife and I got 1st moderna shot yesterday. I am doing fine my wife has a low grade fever.
Ron
My niece broke through the ridiculous debacle that is the Pennsylvania system and we are scheduled for today to get the first dose of Moderna about 20 miles away.
I am seriously considering only getting one dose because of the serious side effects people seem to have after dose two. My last flu vaccine was in October 2019, and I felt like death warmed over for 10 days afterwards. Thoughts?
My 13 year old granddaughter was among 70 children exposed at school and we are waiting on her test results. Her parents were vaccinated in the first go round because her mom is a NICU nurse.
Quote from: Roxie on April 02, 2021, 04:09:55 AM
Thoughts?
Yes, relax your arm and then wait to see if you get a serious reaction from the first shot.
bruno, this is what I wear at work.
face shield (https://www.amazon.com/Anti-fog-Reusable-Shields-Glasses-Protect/dp/B08GHXGWJL/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=face+s)
I wear glasses, so it can be worn with glasses. I work all day wearing it. I have lung problems and there is no way that I could wear a mask all day. Only problem I have it wearing it when I go outside with a customer when the wind is blowing. The wind will take it away!!!
But Doctor offices and hospitals don't like the shields. Yes, I could get a slip from my DR, but wearing a mask for an hour does not bother me too bad. Does get me huffing and puffing some, but I can manage it for that long.
First shot moderna for us. Tammy's headache is gone this morning, I however feel like I've not slept in days.
Quote from: Jeff on April 02, 2021, 07:16:19 AM
First shot moderna for us. Tammy's headache is gone this morning, I however feel like I've not slept in days.
I had some of that after the first shot, no aches or anything just a little weary so I took it easy that day and the next day all was good. We just got our second yesterday. only have some injection site soreness, wife is the same. Now that I think of it though, I am a little less energetic, but no big deal. I may not dig any ditches today. ;D
It was about 36 hours of misery for me after the 2nd Moderna. My neighbor/friend is my wifes age, 72 (she wasn't bothered much by either shot) and he was tired and achy for ~ a week. His own wife, my age is not a healthy person in many ways and she wasn't bothered much by either shot, in spite of her health issues.
That friends son who's also my nearest neighbor and a mid-40's KY state cop, refuses to get the shot to his Dad's dismay. I told his dad while sawing on Tuesday, I damned sure rather be alive than among the 568,000 dead folks in the USA alone, than quarrel about a shot for a few days?
Well pretty much back to normal today. Headache is gone and the only thing I am noticing is some of my joints are achy. Almost feels like when I had lyme. My wife basically had no side effects from the second Pfizer shot. They say drinking plenty of water can help relieve the headache if you get it and mine is gone much quicker then the one from the first shot. They told me Staples will laminate the card you get for free and it's a good idea to carry it with you for any kind of events or travel after the second shot was signed off.
I saw where a fellow MC tourer/rider had his shot card laminated as he dreams about a return to the Alps.
Seems pre-mature or illogical when there's the possibility that the bureaucrats may invent a covid passport thingie?
I cannot visualize a handwritten card that's easily forged by anyone with a ballpoint pen, becoming a golden ticket? I just folded mine into my billfold.
Quote from: Roxie on April 02, 2021, 04:09:55 AMI am seriously considering only getting one dose because of the serious side effects people seem to have after dose two.
I would not be concerned about the second shot. Get it. I would suggest that the serious side effects are a very small percentage, and the non-side effect majority remains silent and goes on with their usual activities.
I think that some of the reactions that some folks have is them looking for a reaction. Who is to say that they would not have had that headache, etc. anyway?
I never ever have headaches but the shot that can keep me out of a hospital or a morgue is worth the one I got after that 2nd shot!
Get the shots folks. 8)
Quote from: Magicman on April 02, 2021, 09:33:19 AM
Quote from: Roxie on April 02, 2021, 04:09:55 AMI am seriously considering only getting one dose because of the serious side effects people seem to have after dose two.
I would not be concerned about the second shot. Get it. I would suggest that the serious side effects are a very small percentage, and the non-side effect majority remains silent and goes on with their usual activities.
I think that some of the reactions that some folks have is them looking for a reaction. Who is to say that they would not have had that headache, etc. anyway?
We have been fine all during this. We got a shot, now we are not.
It means your system is healthy, congratulations!
Still waiting here, apparently less essential than they told me I was :D.
We had wrapped up mixing and pouring 70 some bags of concrete yesterday, kind of worse for the wear, loaded up the bobcat and I was pulling out of the museum when a car blocks my way turning in. I backed up, they pulled in and I went to see what was up. It was a family with 2 younger kids who had seen the website but neglected to notice that the museum wasn't opening till the middle of the month. I tried to tell them to come back when it was open, that I'm just a workman on site when the wife said "we're travelling and can't come back". I signalled to the other Don and began the tour of the critters while he was opening up buildings. The kids had obviously never been around animals but Lilly the cow and Gilbert, one of the oxen were happy to meet and greet and take some petting, even the new donkey was as good as he could be about it. As we were walking one of the kids said "this is the best day yet!" All my alarm bells and prejudices melted. I had to ask them to repeat themselves multiple times since we had different accents and they were carrying on in both chinese and english but we had a good time. The parents were so appreciative. It was a good reminder that we're all just God's children on this little ball.
QuoteIt means your system is healthy, congratulations
Was.
My wife got the one shot J&J on Wednesday. So far no reaction, maybe a little tired but that could be due to the activity level she's had. But, she gets annual flu shots, ever since she worked for the school district. Me, never a flu shot ever, so not starting now. Might add that 5 yrs ago I did have a severe viral infection, went to the doctor, and was told "nothing they could do for me". What did I do? as I felt like crap for 10 days. Wore a mask (so as not to expose others) for the half day at work I could manage, and slept, sorta, on the couch for 10 nights so at least the wife could have some peace.
My nephew's mother in law, she was 65, got the second of a 2 shot vaccine on a Thursday morning. She said she wasn't feeling well, and wanted to go home. Friday evening, they did a welfare check on her, and found her in her bathroom in a pool of black blood; they think she'd laid there since returning home on Thursday. She died that Saturday in hospital; they said she had an aneurysm in 'an unusual location'.
Vaccine related, or just timing, and poor luck of the draw, I don't know. Her parents are still alive, and around 100. In this day, and age, had she tested positive for covid, it'd be labeled as a covid death; yet the D.C. shows no mention of the vaccine; I find that convenient. The funeral was last week.
Quote from: Magicman on April 02, 2021, 09:33:19 AM
I think that some of the reactions that some folks have is them looking for a reaction. Who is to say that they would not have had that headache, etc. anyway?
This is so common the word nocebo was coined
I am sorry for your family. the only way I can think of a ruptured aneurysm being worsened by the vaccine is if she had high blood pressure and it made it go up. any death in proximity to a drug under investigation should be reported and reviewed. Most folks are having "mild" symptoms more consistent with what you get with a virus and recover in a few days. maybe an AV malformation in her colon? most aneurysms the blood remains internal. usually an aneurysm has been there for years, and found by accident (serendipity) or when they bleed. I doubt it was from the vaccine.
I got my first Pfizer on Tuesday and today I got a strange headache.
My bp has been around 115-120 over 70-75 for months. Today it is 139 over 90 and I aint did a blame thing today. Laid around and sat around.
Wife and I had no noticeable reaction to either shot, pfizer, maybe just lucky or maybe it's not working for us. As to headaches, I'm 69 and have never had one, dad lived to 90 and never had a headache, we were both accused of causing them.
Quote from: kantuckid on April 02, 2021, 09:01:31 AMI saw where a fellow MC tourer/rider had his shot card laminated as he dreams about a return to the Alps.
Seems pre-mature or illogical when there's the possibility that the bureaucrats may invent a covid passport thingie?
I cannot visualize a handwritten card that's easily forged by anyone with a ballpoint pen, becoming a golden ticket? I just folded mine into my billfold.
kantuckid,
Have you traveled much internationally? Are you familiar with the International Vaccination Record? Many countries require certain shots (I know many African countries require proof of Yellow Fever vaccination within the last 10 years) before you can enter and this yellow, tri-fold card is the standard document they are looking for. Most of the entries on mine are in ballpoint pen with the nurse or tech giving the shot providing the name and date of the vaccination. Some entries have an official looking stamp, many entries do not. I have never had any problem traveling throughout 5 different continents showing this card at Immigration and Passport Control in the various airports. My wife and I took ours along and had the folks annotate ours showing the date and type Covid vaccination we got. I would expect this entry to be honored almost anywhere in the world based on many years and tons of miles in dozens of countries.
Well, I'm currently running a 101.7 temp. Tammy is normal. I'm not feeling sick really, just wiped out.
Quote from: sawguy21 on March 30, 2021, 11:51:55 AM
... Apparently people in my age group are eligible for the first shot sometime in April but so far not dates are being made public, it is very frustrating. I just want to get it over with.
Sawguy, you can book your appointment now (well, on Saturday). There's an online form (I don't have the link) or you can book by phone. The toll free number for the Interior Health region is 877-740-7747.
They accelerated the program in early March and instead of accepting a new age group weekly, they've been going down in one-year increments. The phone number starts with a recorded message saying what ages can apply at beginning at noon. If you meet the required age, you just stay on the line and a human will come on to book your appointment.
Barb's been keeping tabs and on Monday it was 74 years and older, but on Tuesday they were accepting 73 years and up. She was only on hold for about 9 minutes and the whole process was very straightforward (have your health insurance number handy).
They managed to throw us for a loop when Barb was all booked and they asked if there was anyone else in the household who needed a shot. She said yes, but her husband was younger than she was. "Doesn't matter, we can book him now." So I got to jump the line ;D.
Anyway, I saw on the news there were making appointments for 72 and older today. And, yes, as far as I know, they're taking calls on Saturdays.
This is some information I pulled out of the Pfizer-BioNTech monograph. Moderna is the same class of vaccines so I imagine the numbers will be similar.
For 56 years and older, the 3 most common systemic reactions after the first doses are:
1) Fatigue - 34% of vaccine recipients
2) Headache - 25% of vaccine recipients
3) New (or worse) muscle pain - 14% of vaccine recipients
In order to standardize responses, the participants were given a checklist of possible reactions, plus space to write in any others that weren't listed. Here's the interesting part. The placebo group reported the following:
1) Fatigue - 23% of placebo group
2) Headache - 18% of placebo group
3) New (or worse) muscle pain - 8% of placebo group
So it looks as though anticipation plays a factor.
The numbers for the 18-55 year old group were all higher.
Quote from: Jeff on April 02, 2021, 10:18:27 PMWell, I'm currently running a 101.7 temp
Means it's working, :)
Quote from: Jeff on April 02, 2021, 10:18:27 PM
Well, I'm currently running a 101.7 temp. Tammy is normal. I'm not feeling sick really, just wiped out.
FWIW Jeff, I had my shot the same day as y'all. Wife has no issues and I didn't think I did either, except that I didn't do anything all day. Not sick or anything, just not motivated. I did some 'chair work' and cleaned a chimney quick and dirty after a small chimney fire, but only because I had to. I had attributed it to distraction by the Idiot next door dropping 80' EWP trees within 30' of his house with back lean toward my house. It was a circus of inexperience and had me a bit concerned. But maybe it was just fatigue, I was in bed by ten. I do have the muscle soreness in that shoulder and when I rolled over at 2am it woke me up. I felt like I had been stacking 6x6's all day.
No big deal though if it works the way it is supposed to. The CDC yesterday announced greatly relaxed travel advisories for vaccinated folks eliminating quarantine requirements in many cases, so that is good too.
Just relax and give it another day, that is my plan anyway.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on April 02, 2021, 09:31:29 PM
Quote from: kantuckid on April 02, 2021, 09:01:31 AMI saw where a fellow MC tourer/rider had his shot card laminated as he dreams about a return to the Alps.
Seems pre-mature or illogical when there's the possibility that the bureaucrats may invent a covid passport thingie?
I cannot visualize a handwritten card that's easily forged by anyone with a ballpoint pen, becoming a golden ticket? I just folded mine into my billfold.
kantuckid,
Have you traveled much internationally? Are you familiar with the International Vaccination Record? Many countries require certain shots (I know many African countries require proof of Yellow Fever vaccination within the last 10 years) before you can enter and this yellow, tri-fold card is the standard document they are looking for. Most of the entries on mine are in ballpoint pen with the nurse or tech giving the shot providing the name and date of the vaccination. Some entries have an official looking stamp, many entries do not. I have never had any problem traveling throughout 5 different continents showing this card at Immigration and Passport Control in the various airports. My wife and I took ours along and had the folks annotate ours showing the date and type Covid vaccination we got. I would expect this entry to be honored almost anywhere in the world based on many years and tons of miles in dozens of countries.
Yes, I/we have traveled extensively. I'm familiar because I've had the yellow card->several times in fact, as I went back into the military in my 40's.
I've also mentioned that our oldest son, a pilot and former 10+ yrs Marine aviator, is the ONLY person among his fellow civilian test pilots & mechanics to get the vaccination who are ALL former Marines, as the Marines are the only users of that aircraft. I feel certain they all had yellow cards too. The times have changed and people are looking differently at covid vs. say yellow fever, etc. Even the CDC has changed it's messages from day to day, one day it's not OK and the head is tearfully saying so, day later a totally different message, r. e. foreign travel!
That same son's GF is Colombian and no, he has not been down to see her lately.
And yes it was always handwritten but the huge difference is we are in a world wide pandemic and people have been acting far differently for over a year. In todays newspaper is an article on Toronto, Canada where businesses have been shutdown for over a year. They had planned for hairdressers and outdoor eating and now thats apparently not gonna happen.
Common sense would hope your correct that it will not become complicated & even more restrictive to travel outside the USA but to date, that's not seeming the case from what I read.
Yesterday I told my wife I was going to take a look at the FL state parks we have stayed in winters past. I did find a few next winter spots but it was very few indeed. Typically I can piece together a trip with stays at various parks and jiggety jogging between openings. Not gonna happen in 2022 as many are already booked using the eleven month window for reservations. Openings begin to show up in Dec 2021 then disappear for the entire 11 months. Even single night stays were gone! Even the more northern FL parks are often full up which usually have openings when it's chilly up there, not many now. I'm thinking that some Canadians may have just stayed down there? Plus the number of boomers has increased greatly as more do retire each year.
Take a look see at foreign travel-it will take more than simple acceptance of our handwritten covid shot card as many countries are very much not allowing travelers in.
I took some tylenol last night and my temp is back to normal this morning. I now have a dull ache in the back of my head this morning.
I think I'm having such a strong immune response because I've been through this before and my body knows how to do an all out attack. I still think I had this in Novembrr and December of 19, a month before they say it was here.
After being up and around this morning, I'm doing much better. Maybe Ill put the new exaust manifold on sweaty today, my 49 8n
They dropped the age down to 50 here so I'm eligible. Went on my medical web site. The two local 10-mile away spots only have openings April 28th on. Looked up one 20 miles away and they had one for tomorrow but when I picked it, it said supplies limited and kicked me out. Went back in and got an appointment finally for Tuesday 8 am after MANY go-rounds.
Ky has gone to ALL! adults get the vaccine.
Got my shot yesterday and I got nothing. Not even a sore arm. Everyone is sure different.
I have a temp today and still have the weird headache and running nose.
Quote from: Roxie on April 03, 2021, 11:54:06 AM
Got my shot yesterday and I got nothing. Not even a sore arm. Everyone is sure different.
While I was laying on the couch recovering from side effects. My Wife that got the 2nd shot the same time as me but didn't have any problems brought me over a glass of ice water. I asked how she was feeling and she said fine, then a pause and then There's a reason men don't give birth. Explained it all :D. Finally back to normal but still have achy joints I didn't have before.
Today, an acquaintance of mine, 46 years old died of Covid. She was the mother of a couple of students I had a few years ago. She was an active FFA alumni member. It was a shock to many. Evidently she had a few underlying conditions. My take on this virus is that it is not a big deal for most but for some it is. My wife, who was reluctant to get a vaccine, got the Moderna vaccine today.
I'm sorry to hear that Caveman.
none of us know the answers for sure. decide for yourself and live with the consequences. glad that most are doing ok. loving life!
I've had both shots of Moderna. Only side effect was my arm hurt a little the next day after the second shot. No big deal as sometimes my arm hurts the same after I get the flu shot.
Funny thing I started having these dreams that say vote Bill 24....... Whats that about? :D
Took a picture of my vaccination card so I can flash it to the pretty girls.
Every 10 feet in the hall we sat in to wait the 20 minutes before we could leave were signs that said:
"Please respect other's privacy while taking selfies."
say_what
This was a medical center.
In todays NYT's theres an article that details what to expect from the shots reaction wise. Being a person with chronic seasonal allergies I skimmed through it.
First off, it said there is no research that says people like myself should avoid the shot other than if we have an allergy to the vaccines contents such as poly glycols and a couple other commonly seen ingredients that carry the goodies.
As for 2nd shot reactions, research shows it ranges from 52%+ for Pfizer to 82%+ for Moderna with arm soreness, joints, headaches and fever as the common themes.
If you had/have a reaction it's saying you immune system is working. If you have no reaction your in the minority and by far but doesn't mean there's an issue either.
I began to read another article about "what I'm allowed to do" if I've had both shots and it became so bogged down with crap about things like "will I be around people who are shouting, etc." I stopped reading. I dislike sweating the small stuff in life.
My wife is wanting to rebel on mask wearing since having the shots but the signs are up so I dutifully wear mine as does she with me getting to hear about it each time... :D
I have not seen an satisfactory reason why those who have had their shots are required to continue wearing masks. In Canada there is a kerfuffle over the elderly in "care" facilities still be locked down and forbidden from any kind of normalcy such as going outside or embracing loved ones even after they received all their vaccinations. Is there any factual medical science behind the continued isolation and wearing of masks ?
I can post the links if needed
The loneliness that this disease is forcing on elderly nursing home residents and the mortality that results from that is difficult to put a number on, and I think modern medicine tends to brush it to the side. I realize they are trying to keep people from getting sick, but you also can't make it so people want to stop living🤷🏽♂️
My wife went and got her first shot 3 days ago. Something about her job qualified her to get it. She felt fairly crummy for a day, but she also has a sinus infection and allergies so it's kind of hard to tell what was causing what. I can go get a shot too, first I'm Native and second Indian Health Services is trying to get everyone that resides on or around the reservation vaccinated, whether Native or not. They want to stick everyone😊 I'll probably go do it this week, I really hadn't given it much thought because I figured I wouldn't qualify for a good while yet, and I basically live a socially isolated/quarantine life anyways🤷🏽♂️😁 That's just how it is for loggers😊
the whole thing has been so politicized. a former president was trying to get things open, and now it seems it is a sin to do anything that would make that seem right. my comment is political I know but that is why no one wants to error on the side of opening things up and then get the blame. with 2 distinct sides, there is always someone to point the finger. I still wear a mask in a store even though KS dropped the mandate. I am in the public eye as the medical director.
I only wear a mask to go in a store or restaurant where I WANT to buy something or eat a meal. I don't wear it in the parking lot, putting gas in the vehicle or driving down the road. I got tickled one day in Costco when an older gentleman working the checkout asked me how I liked my mask. He won't do that again, I have a habit of telling it the way it is.
I get tickled from some of the homemade masks I've seen in Walmart. One guy who stocks shelves has this bandito style homemade cloth mask that looks so nasty it turns me off royally. Hangs below his chin and has the look of cloth that has lived far beyond it's time. I saw an older couple who had masks obviously sewn up by Momma from her cloth stash. They say the cloth ones are not so good but what do I care.
When we watch the evening so-called TV news from DVR recording I blip on past the how many got covid, how many got covid shots and the rest of the covid statistics as it's far beyond useful information and worn out mentality to look- reminds me of watching my odometer while driving? :D
I do think that a large part of the resistance to getting the vaccine right now is the fact that nothing changes after you are immunized. The social distancing is still required? Why get a shot if nothing changes?
Personally I know a woman that needs to be in a nursing home with dementia, but her daughter won't place her because of Pennsylvania no visitor rules.
Quote from: Roxie on April 04, 2021, 06:25:32 PM. . . Why get a shot if nothing changes? . . . .
Well . . . . after the second shot, your chances of NOT getting a trip to the ICU are 92-96%
or are you talking of everyone else, and not yourself?
Roxie is saying why get the vaccine if the heavy restrictions remain even to the vaccinated. It's the same question many have asked.
you are still protected more, even if the government does not change the rules. when the numbers drop, then eventually the powers that be will realize it. patience grasshopper.
I will keep doing what the CDC recommends. I will wear a mask inside a public place, because although small, there is a chance that I am carrying the virus and can spread it to someone who has not been vaccinated. I understand that the vaccine is not like a shield in Star Trek. I have to contract the virus for the antibodies to repel the virus. I have switched from wearing N95 masks to wearing cloth or surgical masks. These are more about protecting others than myself. We just had my inlaws over for Easter and before that, my parents were in my house. That hasn't happened for at least 9 months.....someone else in my house. All but the kids are vaccinated.
Yes, the vaccine is not foolproof.
Pandemic isn't quite over yet.. The vaccine "probably" protects you, but there is still a chance you could catch the virus, and pass it on, to others that aren't vaccinated yet, can't be vaccinated, or haven't got full protection from their shots.
It's not a huge risk, but if you want the numbers to drop off quickly (so all the restrictions get lifted), act like it's still spreading. US is still reporting ~50,000 cases a day, although death rates seem to be decreasing. Most of the really vulnerable folks have probably had their shots by now? But even seemingly healthy / young people can end up in ICE (or dead). Just a much lower percentage.
The pandemic wont be fully over until a significant majority of the population becomes immune, so the virus isn't actively circulating. Not there yet.
I think Doc answered it best in reply 2279
This "spreading it even though vaccinated" goes against everything we have believed prior to this. I had mumps as a child but I could work in a mumps factory and not get sick. I had the polio vaccine and who knows if I have ever been exposed and my immune system fought it off? I sure didn't spread polio after my vaccine.
It's perfectly reasonable to question what is going on here. This just doesn't compute!
For the record, I wear a mask in any location that requests it. I am following social distancing when requested. Once I get my second shot, I will still do it, if requested. So what exactly is the vaccine accomplishing?
after thirty years of vaccination beginning at a certain age, (or you cannot go to school), prevents a pandemic (polio, small pox). this variant came on a year ago and no one was immune or vaccinated. we still get an occasional polio case, but not much to worry about, unless you are that case. In ten years we will know all about this and will be better able to understand and control it. with so many unknowns, leaders do not want to stick their necks out, except for themselves and their families. :)
lets hope the mutations do not require yearly seasons and vaccinations.
I'm still not feeling great sore throat and headache.
I don't know if I'm going back for the second dose if it makes you sicker.
everyone is different. you are prob. 65% good now, but how long does it last? we do not know. second dose gets to 90% and unlikely to be critically ill. The virus may kill you so compare to that. it is of course your decision.
Quote from: Roxie on April 04, 2021, 09:09:50 PMThis "spreading it even though vaccinated" goes against everything we have believed prior to this. I had mumps as a child but I could work in a mumps factory and not get sick. I had the polio vaccine and who knows if I have ever been exposed and my immune system fought it off? I sure didn't spread polio after my vaccine.
No vaccine is 100% effective. But it works when applied to the population as a whole.
What it needs to be is about 90%. That way the disease is very unlikely to infect anyone, as most of the population is immune. Think how unlikely it is for 4 or 5 cases to transmit without one of the cases not finding a vulnerable host. If that happens the chain is broken, and the "outbreak" dies out. Patient 3 gets better (or dies) without infecting anyone else, and there is no case 4 or 5.
I think with measles the number of immune needs to be about 80%. If it drops below that then that virus has a chance to find enough new victims to cause an outbreak. And that can be the occasional vaccinated person as well, where the vaccine wasn't fully effective. Measles and Polio still exists because there hasn't been a big enough effort to wipe it out in 3rd World countries, so it still pops up occasionally even in countries where it shouldn't. Smallpox is effectively "extinct" because there WAS a big international effort to wipe it out.
One of the Anti-Vax arguments is "But no one gets Polio / Measles any more, so we don't need the shots". The reason that hardly anyone gets it is because "most" of the population is immune, so even non-vaccinated folks would VERY rarely be exposed. If you don't meet anyone with the virus, you don't catch it, so you don't pass it on. If no one got vaccinated, that would pretty soon change.
As a side note, the person named as New Zealander of the Year for 2020 was a lady called Siouxsie Wiles. She is an interesting character, with long and bright purple hair, very recognisable, and very different to the stereotypical scientist. But she is also very good at explaining things in ways "normal" people can understand, while also being an actual professor of microbiology. I think info from her and Dr Ashley Bloomfield played a large part in the success of the virus response here in NZ.
Siouxsie Wiles named New Zealander of the Year | New Zealand | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/01/siouxsie-wiles-named-new-zealander-of-the-year)
Quote from: doc henderson on April 04, 2021, 09:14:11 PMleaders do not want to stick their necks out, except for themselves and their families.
It was a big gamble for the NZ Govt to impose a strict lock-down early on. If it had been a "false alarm", or hadn't worked, they would have been out of a job pretty quick. Luckily it's paid off (both medically and economically). There were questions asked of course, with comparisons to Australia that quelled their first wave with less restrictions. Then they got into a 2nd wave and let if get out of control by not bringing in another lock-down fast enough. They did get a lid on it eventually, but it took some pretty heavy measures to do it, and they ended up with a lot more cases per capita than NZ. They still did very well on the global comparison though.
Medical folks get immunized for hepatitis B. it takes 3 shots and then you have to get antibody titers checked, and possibly more shots. it is too early to know if covid can be wiped out before it mutates enough to start again next year. If it does, then each year we will need the next modified vaccine. how long the immune response lasts is yet to be seen. Is it the same for the vaccine, and having the disease? It is a hard sell to say you might still get it, and even spread it, but at least with the vaccine you are less likely to die. This is why if you nerdy doc explains a test result with you, and you shoot back an analogy, and you hear "sort of but not really". things are complicated. It is hard to get people on board when we do not really know what will happen yet. We rely heavily on the experience of other viruses and vaccines. had this hit 70 years ago, we would not have had this vaccine yet. We would not have even identified it by now. we could not do gene DNA/RNA sequencing.
I sincerely appreciate your explanation of the difference. Thank you doc!
My wife has a coworker who got the first vaccine shot a week ago.
He has just recently tested + for Covid, now my wife is out of work for 10 day isolation due to being a contact.
I thought after getting the vaccine a + test for Covid would be normal (!?). Am I wrong?
JJ
a nasal swab relies on the virus (bits and pieces) be present in the nose. the antibody test looks for antibody in the blood. it can be sent off and differentiate between antibody from the vaccine and from the virus. You are not well protected early on. it takes time for the biological process of your immune cells contacting the vaccine and developing immunity. best 2 weeks after 2 doses, or at least that is what has been looked at. many cases of getting it in the middle of the vaccine regimen.
There is a difference between testing + for antibodies and testing positive for Covid. Which did they test + for. After vaccination you can test pos for antibodies.
I think it stands to reason that some folks may get their first shot and then too soon begin to drop precautions. Then get sick from exposure before their immune system has had the time to build up immunity.
In this information age I think we are informed more about things like how vaccines work. Officials are more likely now to tell us that we should still use precautions even after vaccination. I feel that In the past, say 50 years ago, they were more likely to keep that information from us if they even knew it. The vaccine still managed to eradicate smallpox because enough people got the vaccine.
Great insight FFOTS, that shows some critical thinking.
Also, Roxie has thanked Doc for all his time and patience in keeping us informed and in the loop - I'll echo that: thank you! There's more than one way to live up to the Hippocratic Oath. Well done.
Ianab, your wonderful writing skills and calm analysis of the situation in Oz are a frequent reminder of the global nature of this pandemic. The 'down under' viewpoint is appreciated here in Canada.
My wife's coworker has now been admitted to the hospital.
now I must also self isolate too as I am close contact to my wife..? How far down the chain of contacts do you go?
JJ
depends on the county. if you are not sick, unlikely you can spread it. if you get sick, they may want to know your contacts. (might remember them now instead of next week) good luck all.
My experience with testing positive for the virus on the same day I got my second vaccination exposes a gap in the testing. The test for the virus does not tell you if you are infected, only if you have specific pieces of the virus DNA in your system. The test cannot determine if the virus pieces are or were alive or already dead. The reason being the test solution kills any live virus so in my case with no symptoms I can assume that my immune system was dealing with my exposure to the virus and I was just shedding already dead pieces.
In general, only those with direct exposure to a known positive must quarantine. Now, if your wife develops symptoms then you have now become a direct exposure. Might be a good idea to isolate yourself as much as possible until it becomes clear that your wife is negative after 2 weeks. Guidance from CDC now says that those who are fully vaccinated do not have to quarantine after exposure.
ok so if you recover viral bits from your nose, you have the virus. the shot (immunization) will give you antibodies in your blood. No viruses are alive, and they depend on your cellular machinery to reproduce packets of DNA/RNA. your immune system recognized foreign material through antigens left on the surface of the cell membrane, and attack the infected cell. this is where the inflammation comes from. your body attacking and sacrificing your own cells. so when you get symptoms after a vaccine, it means your immune system was fooled and is mounting an immune response (inflammation. headache, muscle aches fever. ect.) your immune system also cures cancer in your body each day. when you finally get too old, the system fails and you got cancer. depends on other risk factors as well as you know. each time you copy the cellular blue print (dna/rna) there is a chance of a mistake. this is where mutations come from. most make no difference, and may even make the virus non viable. only rarely does it make an advantage for the virus. like not getting taken out by pre made immunity from a vaccine. since your body is replicating the viral info millions of times, even a few misprints, can result in an advantage to the virus. so knocking down the spread will also decrease the chance of a mutation that make the virus stronger (more lethal to humans) or not covered by a vaccine.
Quote from: JJ on April 05, 2021, 10:46:30 AMnow I must also self isolate too as I am close contact to my wife..? How far down the chain of contacts do you go?
Depends how badly you want to stop the spread of the virus. The contact tracing has to "get ahead" of the virus spread if it's to be any use. Otherwise all the testing on the world is simply following the trail, not slowing it down in any way.
NZ has had multiple cases get through the quarantine, most have been controlled by contact tracing and isolation of close contacts (like yourself) without resorting to more drastic community wide restrictions.
In cases where the virus HAS spread out into the wider community, then that city has been moved to Level 3, which isn't a full lock-down, but no group gathering / schools closed / no eating in etc. Short periods of restrictions let the contact tracing catch up, the actual cases get isolated, and then things relax back to normal. It's almost like "You all know the Drill, go home for week", people don't even panic buy TP now. :D
Quote from: JJ on April 05, 2021, 10:46:30 AM
My wife's coworker has now been admitted to the hospital.
now I must also self isolate too as I am close contact to my wife..? How far down the chain of contacts do you go?
JJ
Rick Pitino former basketball coach at U of KY, U of Louisville and now at Iona coaching got covid after his two shots. he "thinks" he contacted covid from one of his players. Google will easily bring up multiple stories of the sequences he seems to have gone through.
My wife got her second jab yesterday and was pretty much up all night and under the weather today but hopefully getting better. She told me to go down and grab a canning jar box for tomorrow, she is supposed to give one out. I brought it up to the house and asked who it was for "I'm supposed to meet the governor tomorrow and thank him for helping out with a grant for the food pantry" Hopefully she gets the hurls under control :D.
While she was getting her shot there was a stack of handouts for a mass jab-a-thon tomorrow, my partner and I are signed up for the J&J one shot. So of course his letter came from the VA this afternoon. I was already scheduled for a root canal on Thursday. Hopefully I'll have the hurls under control :D
Got my first shot (Pfizer) today around 8:30. VERY long line but well organized and moved quickly. Took 20 minutes from getting in line to getting registered then another 5 or 6 to get the shot. Barely felt it. Since I'm allergic to Penicillin (got hives when I was 12 or 13), I had to hang out for 30 minutes. Just a little sore at the injection site now at 7:45 pm when I press on it. Scheduled the second shot for 4/27 with is one day before I could get that first shot local.
well stop pressing on it! :)
Quote from: doc henderson on April 06, 2021, 10:55:35 PM
well stop pressing on it! :)
How many times have you told that to a patient in your doctoring career?
It gets me in trouble sometimes. Moms bring in a kid with a fever and that is all she talks about. I finally ask why she took the temperature.... no response.... I been known to respond, well stop taking it.
Hello from Canuckistan Peoples Republic of Ontario
Socialized Medicine
Opened to people 60 and over today
Web site log in went on line at 8:55 was 369321 in line Province wide
Waiting time was relatively quick at 35 minutes
I get stuck the first time at 1:35 pm on April 28th booster shot 16 wks later
If you want the Pfizer as I do this is the only way to go
Cheers
Al
Wifey and I had the Pfizer on Monday. No issues and the shot was painless no. Hope the second is as quick and easy!
I must be the poster child for side effects. Got second shot, got the expected reactions 3 days later, lasted 3 days. Then 2 weeks later I had another round of the same side effects, only lasted 2 days. Mostly muscle and joint aches, no fever or chills. Not surprised, I have always had side effects from flu shots. Wife had no reactions from either shot of maderna.
2nd Pfizer this morning. They make you fill out a consent form with a few medical? Emergency contact etc. Got my yellow shot record updated. The briefing included the possibility that a booster might be required at some future date.
@OntarioAl (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15098) 16 weeks later for the second shot???? REally? I guess they've decided to get more first doses in before they start giving second ones.
Yup
You hit the nail on the head
Cheers
Al
That has happened here, they are concentrating on as many first shots as possible. I finally got the word Saturday morning so called in and got an appointment for Monday morning! There must have been a cancellation, others I have talked to are 2-3 weeks out, but the second shot is not available until August. My arm was a bit tender but other than that have felt fine. My gf is pleased, she is a caregiver for special needs children so can't be too careful. I agree with @Ianab (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=460) and @doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041)
I'm rooting for you Canadians, maybe selfish but I'd like to catch and eat some more of your Walleyes. Getting the border open would help both economies.
I want to go south for really good Tex-Mex food, few know how to make it here, and cheap beer. ;D I have always felt very welcome.
@sawguy21 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1763) I remember back in the 70s you guys had cheap beer and whiskey. To keep on topic with air travel no two countries are much more than a day apart so we need to hope every country gets this covid under control.
@OntarioAl (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15098) north of MN and west of Lake Superior....that sounds like Thunder Bay or do we need to look further north of further west. I'd like to get back to Quetico some day, but doesn't look good for this year. I was doing some searching to see if you can at least get into Quetico. I read that not only is it closed for the summer, but they may not start the remote area border crossing program ever. That means no more entering the park from Cache Bay or Ely. That would be sad.
Quote from: sawguy21 on April 07, 2021, 03:27:25 PMThat has happened here, they are concentrating on as many first shots as possible.
I can see how that would make sense, probably better from an epidemiology point of view to have ALL the population with ~85% immunity, vs only 1/2 with 95%. Option one gets you close to "herd immunity" while option 2 doesn't. Plus if you are unfortunate enough to catch the virus after one dose, it probably wont be as severe.
NZ is working sightly different the virus isn't in the community, so the first shots have gone to the "border" workers like aircrew, air & sea port workers, isolation facility staff etc. They are the "hole" in the quarantine that the virus sneaks in by. Aiming to keep the virus out until the rest of us can get shots. Medical staff, emergency workers, most vulnerable etc. Then work their way down the list until everyone that wants the shots has got them.
Quarantine free travel with Australia is opening up on the 19th as they have been doing the same strategy. A bit of logistics involved as they have to basically split airports in 2 to keep the "virus free" flights away from the rest of the incoming passengers (possibly infected). They are still averaging 5 cases a day from incoming passengers, so the 14 day isolation remains for the rest of the world.
We aren't rushing off to Aussie or anything, but a lot of folks have family over there that they wont have seen since the start, and NZ is the only overseas place that Aussies can currently holiday, so the new flights are selling well.
We are waiting for flights to the Cook Islands to resume. They have had zero cases through the whole outbreak, and need to keep it that way as they don't have the facilities to cope with a serious outbreak there. Air NZ has started advertising flights for next month though, so although there has been no official announcement it seems the Govt has tipped them off that one is coming. We have credits for cancelled flights and accommodation from last year, and are planning to head over there next Winter.
NZ is on my bucket list. Seriously on my bucket list! I did a NZ seminar at a BMW MC rally years ago given by the NZ owners (a couple) of a MC dealership combined with a MC touring business. They book the ride, the lodging and my (age factored) riding window is dwindling as this covid mess lingers on.
My sincere hope is to tour both islands on a fly & rent MC tour with my wife as soon as possible.
I don't have covid, had two shots for over a month now-what's the reason to not come? :D
I cannot even reserve a campsite in Tennessee just south of me for that matter as the covid rule says the reservation window is 3 months for a campground we go to each year with our TN grandkids and book a year in advance to get in it pre-covid.
Contrast that with the thousands of other USA campsites that are reservable eleven months in advance -IF!!! you can get in... ::)
I guess we could be in Ireland where your not allowed to travel more than 3 miles from your own home.
My wife lived 750 miles east of me when I was courting her-would have been a serious damper on things as we have right now!
I just left a conversation with our local HS ag teacher whos been trying to match me with a student to work for me. He said that many had only very recently returned from virtual school and that they have zero interest in anything like work. This from a man who's not new to his job. I am meeting in the HS tomorrow with a small group of students who may be interested in work. Understand that my mailbox is directly across the road from the HS parking lot and it's been many years since I had a HS student who would work. I have my fingers crossed... :D
firefighter on the side
I live about 25 miles southwest of Thunder Bay
The border being closed has impacted the locals and it is devastating to the tourist operations
Cheers
Al
Quote from: kantuckid on April 07, 2021, 05:35:51 PMI guess we could be in Ireland where your not allowed to travel more than 3 miles from your own home.
Basically done that for 6 weeks.
If you weren't going to get food, see the Dr, or go to your essential job, then you had to stay walking distance from from home. It sucks, but it was effective. Aussie reached a similar situation, but they added a $1,000 fine if you went more than ~10km without a valid reason, and started writing tickets. Very few got fined / prosecuted for it here as the cops would just tell you to turn around and go home. A few tried to push the point for various reasons and got busted,
But for the last 11 months we've been at level 1, which is basically no restrictions, with occasional level 2 which has no large gatherings / restrictions on venue capacity etc.
Tourist based business here have been hurting. Even with local travel the only option that might only make up 50% of the regular business. Most have cut back and stayed in business, but with the Aussie border open they are expecting to get busier again, meaning re-hiring new staff etc. A whole new bunch of problems.
We are hopeful that by the end of the year things will be more normal (most of the US and NZ will be vaccinated etc). Until then it's just too complex / risky to open the borders. Even now people have to get a test in the 72 hours before they depart, and yet ~5 per day turn up infected. Fake tests? Got infected the day after the test? Got infected at a transit airport? Who knows, but letting them in without the isolation would have us back at Level 4 in no time.
If you can come and visit the South Island on a bike, you want to choose Summer. :D If it's a guided tour, they will have all the best spots sorted, but if you are booking your own tour, hit me up for some must see places.
Better "in control" than give it to the morticians. I am a self-tourer but do intend to use at least some of the lodgings they have in their tours.
after a little better than three weeks without a death or large increase in cases, Polk County Texas has had an uptick in cases and 4 more deaths. Not sure what it means, but this happened after the gov said not mandatory any longer to wear masks.
at least things were slow enough that some evaluation of the contacts may lead to the cause. may not be related to the lifting of the mask mandate. Ours is lifted and about the same number of people in WM earing masks.
I think masks help mitigate. I still wear them in a business. not at a meal. at the eagle scout ceremony I spoke at, we all removed our masks to speak at the podium. it is ridiculous for the politicians to wear them at a podium, outside, 20 feet from others.
the disease usually kills about 1 month after contact, so hopefully not from dropping the mask mandate. still recommended and required in some businesses, like our hospital.
Could also be delayed reporting, but I agree it was not the lift order on masks. About a month after the lock down from the storm, hmm. could be.
Yesterday I got a J&J shot so far no side effects all is good
My work partner and I got it yesterday as well. They ran 1,000 of us through the rec center in Galax, the Guard was handling flow, volunteers and nurses at 4 stations moving us through, fast and efficient, very well done. We came back and got the belly pans jacked and bolted back up on the dozer, still couldn't get the tranny plug out so siphoned its tank. About 7:30pm was feeling done in so went ahead and turned in. I woke up in the middle of the night and needed to check to make sure I hadn't swallowed the pillow, nope just serious cottonmouth and a headache. By this morning felt a little puny, the headache was still there, a little foggy and running about 100. I figured if I ran the AC on the way down to Winston they would let me in for the root canal. No problems, he had a boat payment due so in I went. I think I figured out the cure for all this side effect business. Strap me in a chair and stick a drill in my head and there is enough adrenaline pumping that no side effect has a chance :D.
This Monday I did a 7 hours straight, 8a.m. to 3 p.m.!!!in a dental chair, excepting three pisser breaks. maybe should get a gold star? ;D
I had the one shot about 3-4 days ago. Arm felt kinda sore for only about an hour. Did not bother at all, so far.
Here in Maine all business must wear a face covering. Some customers still come in the store and leave in a ruff when I ask them to put mask on. ::) Not saying the masks work, just saying all businesses, all have the same mandate. A good rule of thumb, if going into a place to spend money, wear a mask. ;D
Americans (and a whole bunch of others) who do not want to be told what to do... even when it can keep them alive... ::)
I'm a definite hard leaner toward the many freedoms we have, but I also have my sensibility factor mostly intact.
Beyond masking and retail & various facility entries: That whole senario surrounding future travel and vaccinations and passports, etc. is gonna get more way more interesting.
Just read a news article today about who among employers, etc. is requiring vaccinations as of now.
I find it disheartening to read that many drug stores and clinics in the USA are having lots of cancellations and open vaccination appointments while other, mostly poorer, countries have no vaccine or not enough bargaining power to grad what's available.
My Wife is a teacher, and we scheduled a vac back end of March, I keep looking but earliest vac appointment is April 28, but my 17 year old daughter signed up, and got a vaccination appointment the next day (today). She said she increased the radius to 25m, but I try radius of 100 miles and next appointment is end of May !!?
Don't understand the system.
JJ
JJ,
I signed up with my state (Alabama) health department which just linked me to my county health department's web site. I signed up to schedule a vaccination appointment on February 8th. I also called my county health department and both stated I was on the over 65 list and would be contacted via email for the first available opening.
After a few weeks, and YH's comment on Walmart, I went to Walmart's web site and got my first shot scheduled within a week or so. With my booster shot scheduled for Wednesday, April 21.
Oh, by the way, my county health department contacted me via email on Friday April 9th to contact a local vaccination site for an appointment.
It seems no organization of this anywhere...
One of our son's lives in Birmingham with his family and is 44 in May. He "qualified" for his vaccination in AL cause he's an engineer-go figure on that one huh? :D
He took it as a favor he didn't see coming and had his shots some time back. I think he actually got his shot before his twin brother in Knoxville, TN was turned down by the VA who said he made too much money to get the shot from them- then they changed and he got the shot from them at home instead of driving out of town. Yes, it's often a cluster affair since the government is in charge-or not...
An update,
After taking my daughter for her first shot, I did get an appointment for my wife (I think as a 2nd) and I for tomorrow in the same place.
I think you have to look at right time, before all slots fill up, as there was only 2 people in each 5 minute slot. I look again this evening, and all slots except 1 are filled, and all other places they are giving appointments are out into May.
Patience and Persistence
JJ
While I hate its taking a long time for some to get it, I will take it as a sign that lots are getting it and hopefully enough to reach the needed immunity to end the pandemic.
I checked the calendar to see what I have going on at work tomorrow and see that I get my 3rd and final vaccine shot for anthrax. At least when that pandemic starts I'll be way ahead of the curve.
Barb had the Pfizer-BioNTech shot yesterday. Woke up this morning with a very slightly sore arm. Did all her usual Sunday chores with no side-effects (so far) getting in the way.
I had my shot today. Arm is a tiny bit sensitive right now but not getting any worse.
We made a bunch of quick-to serve meals to get us through the week if we both end up too fatigued or head-achy to do any cooking.
Things are pretty organized here in BC. Most important, it's consistent. We were told (on the news, via the web, and on a toll-free phone line) who could start signing up, based on their birth year. Barb called on the day her birth year came up, spent 9 minutes on hold, and booked any appointment for the 10th. Then they told her she could book me as well, even though I'm younger.
We were told to show up no earlier than 10 minutes before our appointed time. The vaccination site was an empty department store in a nearby mall. Security guard asked when our appointment was schedule for, looked inside to see if there was a backlog, and waved us in if everything was OK.
Inside a person asked us some screening questions, then we sent to line up at one of the processing stations. There we were asked to give our name, run our health care card through a scanner, and got a card with the date and vaccine type on it.
Next step was to pick up a clipboard with a questionnaire and sit down in a holding area (well spaced). The questionnaire was basically to do with possible allergic reactions.
Once that was done, we were directed to one of the available nursing stations where the nurse confirmed all our personal information with the provincial database and discussed any allergies and the possibility of a reaction. We here given a handout with a list of possible side-effects, plus a list of Covid-19 symptoms that would NOT be caused by the vaccine (just in case we got infected before the vaccine took full effect.
Finally ... "Which arm would you like it in?". 10 seconds max. I didn't feel a thing. Barb said she felt the tiniest pinching sensation.
Then we had to go and sit around (well spaced) in another holding area for 15 minutes in the off chance there would be a severe reaction.
5 minutes in preprocessing, 10 minutes with the nurse, 10 seconds for the shot, 15 minutes waiting for a non-reaction. 1/2 hour total in and out.
And I found out what that coloured plastic lever-thingy on the syringe was for ;D.
Not that it matters, mine was done behind a solid screen at a grocery store pharmacy. With all the questions too.
If you're having trouble getting in to get the shot, call or go on-line and check for cancellations!
That's what I did and got an appointment for the next day, then the second shot three weeks later!
Quote from: Chuck White on April 12, 2021, 09:26:04 AM
If you're having trouble getting in to get the shot, call or go on-line and check for cancellations!
That's what I did and got an appointment for the next day, then the second shot three weeks later!
Whatever works! I know we feel better having our shots.
I would say don't take the vaccine, but it is not a vaccine. It is not. Calling it a vaccine makes it sound like something you've had before. It is not. It is an experiment, and I will not participate
you have the right to decline. It is a world wide pandemic and many have died. It was developed and implemented under an emergency drug use, so we are still finding out more as we move forward. all drugs are monitored for unforeseen side effects. you have to weigh the risk of the medication vs the risk of the disease. for many it appears the drug helps protect us from the disease. this drug helps prepare your immune system to combat the disease. it is therefore defined as a vaccine.
Doc; You have a very good and informative thread going here, it's one of the threads I catch every day!
Thank you so very much for keeping it going, I know you put in a lot of time here!
California opened it up to 16+ as of today. I got on late last night and made an appointment for my 17 y.o. son for Tuesday afternoon and my 29 y.o. daughter got on and booked a Tuesday morning appointment. There were a few for Saturday but that timing didn't work for either. Guess they take Sundays and Mondays off.
Quote from: clusterbuster75 on April 15, 2021, 08:07:30 AM
I would say don't take the vaccine, but it is not a vaccine. It is not. Calling it a vaccine makes it sound like something you've had before. It is not. It is an experiment, and I will not participate
Quotevaccine
/ˈvaksiːn,ˈvaksɪn/
noun
From the actual definition of a vaccine, that's what it is (
a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease)So there are several methods used to create vaccines, but all the current Sars-Cov2 vaccines are basically synthetic, or a different and "mostly harmless" virus that's been modified to "look like" the Sars-Cov2.
So a vaccine is never "something you've had before". It's "something" you are given before you might be exposed. This triggers a mild immune response, so when the body is exposed to the real virus, it's "trained" to fight it off (even if not fully immune, a better response / less serious illness)
I recently spoke to a young lady maybe 30 or so, she has Hashimoto disease, syndrome, whichever. She was advised by her medical care team to wait for more data. My medical support team had no reservations about me getting vaccinated. So I did at the first opportunity. As Doc has said repeatedly medical science will know more in about 10 years.
Well, this week we have personal knowledge of two confirmed cases of Brazilian strain here, one confirmed by genetic analysis in a patient that already had Covid 19, about 3 months ago, and another one in a person who had their double dose of vaccines and still got Brazilian.
So, Doc, does the vaccine have some effectiveness against Brazilian, but at a reduced rate, or is it not effective at all? Same question with the person who previously had Covid, would he have had some inherent immunity, but it just got through, or does previously having Covid 19 not give any protection against the Brazilian strain? I thought I heard Dr. Fauci say the vaccines had more off strain immunity than people who had Covid 19, but my GP told me the exact opposite, and said the antibodies from having Covid 19 are stronger than the vaccine. Either way, these two people got Brazillian. Or is there just not enough data to tell?
My cabin helping buddy got his second shot on Monday. First shot, no side affects. Second shot, he was down with a fever for two days, sleeping probably 20 hours each day.
We don't know enough about the P.1 (Brazilian) variant yet.
It showed up in BC back at the end of February when 11 cases were reported. Since then it has doubled every 6.5 days and is now up to 1510 cases. BC was finally coming down off the peak of the second wave and had just leveled off about the time the P.1 variant showed up. We're now well into the 3rd wave.
The latest report I saw says P.1 is 2-1/2 a times a infectious as the original strain. That pretty much fits with the numbers I've been crunching. The problem here is that the new strain is spreading so quickly it's hard to get a handle on it.
Initial reporting suggests that the vaccines at least reduce the severity of the illness, but I don't think there are enough cases to say for sure.
The two hot-spots for P.1 outside of Brazil are Florida and B.C. It's already starting to take hold in Alberta and is showing up in other provinces to the East.
Barb & I have both had bouts of mild fatigue after getting the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine on the weekend. Not enough to slow us down much. I had a mild headache this morning but it was gone by noon. My son-in-law's father had a slight rash around his wrist on the arm where he got jabbed. That faded in a day.
Quote from: YellowHammer on April 15, 2021, 10:50:00 PMdoes the vaccine have some effectiveness against Brazilian, but at a reduced rate, or is it not effective at all?
The vaccines "should" work against the current strains of the virus. They work by training the immune system to recognise a particular spike of protein that the virus uses to enter the bodies cells. When your immune system sees that particular configuration again, it recognises it as foreign, and attacks it. Hopefully before it really gets a hold (enough to make you sick) , or even if the response is a bit slow, you should be able to fight it off without dying.
Now a mutation that had a different "protein spike" would not be recognised, but that would basically need a completely different virus structure, not just a minor change. So I'm hoping the mutations are more about how transmissible the new version are. Maybe they can live on door handles for longer, or survive airborne for another 2 yards? Something that makes them easier to catch, not more deadly or vaccine resistant.
But currently no one knows that for sure. Until a heap of vaccinated people either get, or hopefully DONT get, the new versions it's only an educated guess. If high numbers of vaccinated folks start coming down with the variant, that will be an "Oh Crap" moment, and need a tweak of the vaccines.
Figures out today on the vaccine side effects so far in NZ.
135,000 shots given.
215 "Adverse Reactions" of which 6 were "serious" (Mostly allergic shock, and treatable)
I guess a lot of recipients wouldn't have reported minor side effects like fatigue or a sore arm, as they were expected.
QuoteThe most frequently reported adverse event was dizziness (49 reports), followed by headaches (37), nausea (36), fainting (22), faintness (9), redness ( 8 ), fatigue ( 8 ), fever ( 8 ), pain at the injection site ( 8 ), and swelling ( 8 ).
Now it doesn't mean that the vaccine caused 22 people to faint. The needle might have done that without the vaccine. :D
Quote from: Claybraker on April 15, 2021, 07:25:30 PMshe has Hashimoto disease, syndrome, whichever. She was advised by her medical care team to wait for more data
Hashimoto Disease is an auto-immune condition. Means a persons immune system is out of whack somehow, so no one knows what the vaccine might do to them (or the actual virus if they catch that).
She might be one of the people that need to rely on "herd immunity", after the rest of us get vaccinated.
Well I guess I am unlucky on the Pfizer shot for side effects. I felt fine after the shot both times but just under 2 days after I got big time vertigo. It took 4 or 5 days the first time around to get over it. I am just starting into it this time around but have a few days of down time planned in case it happened again. I did some research and its looks like its 1 in 10 odds. Its not something I could work through. Along with the vertigo is increased tinnitus (ringing ears).
Vertigo / dizziness does seem to be a common side effect.
Remember when we took kids in for their MMR etc shots, and they might be grumpy and unsettled the next day?
No reason think the Covid vaccine will treat us any different. Just now you know why your 2 year old was grizzly after their shots. :D
I think the key thing with vertigo is its not something a person can grit their teeth and work through it. If someone gets it they need downtime until it goes away.
I used to have Vertigo episodes every once in a while, it STARTED way before I got my COVID shots.
My doctor prescribed 25mg Meclizine, ½ tablet 3 times a day, now I get by very well with twice a day!
Got my 2nd Moderna shot today. Hoping all goes well. :)
Rita had her second shot yesterday, so far no side effects. Never had ay problems with the first one said it wasn't as bad as a tetnus shot.
Got my #2 shot over two weeks ago and my left shoulder is still sore, Hard to sleep on,
And what is normal blood pressure?
blood pressure is more controversial than most realize. the older you get, the higher numbers we can tolerate. if you are 30, we want it low like 120/60 to help you live another 40 or 50 years without a stroke or heart attack. As the arteries become less elastic (hardening) there is less ability to stretch and store the pressure (like an expansion tank on a well system). so there will be less flow from the stored energy and the top number rapidly falls to a lower bottom number. the top in the highest pressure at the end of each heart beat, and the bottom number is the lowest pressure until the beginning of the next heart beat. that is called the pulse pressure. so if your heart rate slows, you may pass out from the bottom number going to low (zero). this can be from meds, and or age related electrical heart disease. you may have a weak heart and or leaky valves. this is where the phrase, "it is hell getting older" comes from. a pacemaker can help with the rate. If you are 100 years old, you prob. have have a little or a lot of all the above. God love you! :) so my goals for your bp if I were your doc would depend on you age and co morbidities. your blood pressure is your normal, the question is will you do better over the long haul if it were lower. If you pass out each time you stand up, that is not good either.
Thanks for the info, With that my 147 over 92 hart rate at 70 for a 66-year-old is good, :)
I have that vertigo too. Stiff in the neck and tired.
Not terrible, but your diastolic of 92 is a little high. We expect to see systolic go up as we get older, but we want the diastolic to stay a little lower.
thanks, I will work on that. :)
i agree, but see what it does when you are not getting a shot ect. we have folks that check it at home and it is n a little high. so they check it every 5 minutes and it goes up. they call their daughter to come over and it goes up, they go to a fire station and they take it and it goes up more and they recommend they go to the ED, and it goes up even more. we plunk them in a room and watch for 2 hours and it comes down to a reasonable level and we have them follow up with their doc, and tell them (tongue in cheek) to stop checking it! :) :) :) .
Cowboy Bob had what his doctor called white coat syndrome. He was good at home but under medical watch nervous enough to be a concern.
Stress matters.
Quote from: doc henderson on April 24, 2021, 12:29:02 PM
i agree, but see what it does when you are not getting a shot ect. we have folks that check it at home and it is n a little high. so they check it every 5 minutes and it goes up. they call their daughter to come over and it goes up, they go to a fire station and they take it and it goes up more and they recommend they go to the ED, and it goes up even more. we plunk them in a room and watch for 2 hours and it comes down to a reasonable level and we have them follow up with their doc, and tell them (tongue in cheek) to stop checking it! :) :) :) .
Like the "it hurts when I do this", well then don't do that. So many things affect changes in BP. One thing being test and retest. One person can take it and get one value, but then another person takes it and gets a different value. There can be discrepancies between someone taking it with a cuff and stethoscope as opposed to a machine taking it.
Got my second dose of the vaccine on Tuesday.
Have felt great except my injection site is swelled up with a circle type rash.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on April 24, 2021, 06:22:53 PM
Got my second dose of the vaccine on Tuesday.
Have felt great except my injection site is swelled up with a circle type rash.
Glad you did not have any mask issues on the follow trip.
Quote from: samandothers on April 24, 2021, 10:06:53 PM
Quote from: Bruno of NH on April 24, 2021, 06:22:53 PM
Got my second dose of the vaccine on Tuesday.
Have felt great except my injection site is swelled up with a circle type rash.
Glad you did not have any mask issues on the follow trip.
Oh I did
Full out panic attack
They helped me get out as quick as I could.
I don't know what I'm going to do about this issue.
It's quite embarrassing.
I can handle lots of things but not the mask.
Bruno, I wear these.
face shields (https://www.amazon.com/TCP-Global-Safety-Shields-Glasses/dp/B08DL29QNH/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=face+shield&qid=1619368285&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&smid=A23ADOZFIJNPFB&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExNkFFTUpOQUFXNkc4JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjg1NDc0MllURE9SVjRUMTVVRCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDI2NDQxWDFFNjJIOUM5VUE5JndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==)
I have bad lungs and no way I could wear a mask all day. When I go into the hospital, Dr's office is there, I have to wear a mask.
When I had the covid shot, I had the shield on, but the technician asked me to put a mask on. I can wear one for a while, but have trouble breathing with it. I kinda think the mask did me in last June when I had all that trouble.
I wear glasses and this shield does not get in the way at all.
I go into many stores and never had a problem.
I wear a face shield all the time in my shop and yard when I have customerscome. It is clipped to my WM ball cap. I can wear my glasses under it and it is easy to wash. Some store will not let me in with it on , require a mask, I either put a on a mask, or do not go back to that store.
Got my second dose of Pfizer yesterday morning (8:30). Probably all in my head but I was somewhat cold under several blankets when I went to bed last night. Feel fine this morning other than a sore injection site.
Wife and I had our second Pfizer Monday. Nothing on Monday that we noticed. We did take Tylenol before bed and on Tuesday morning. Tuesday I felt tired all day but continued with planned work. Wife had some head ache Tuesday and did lay down some in the afternoon. Today, Wednesday, we are normal and activities as normal for both of us.
Had my second shot of Moderna yesterday and just like the first dose, I got nothing.
It feels great to be fully vaccinated and help your country kick some covid behind!
My second moderna on thursday was so far unremarkable. Wildflower on the other hand has had some issues this time when she had nothing the first shot
Been 3 weeks since my #2 shot and my shoulder is sore all the way to my elbow. Anyone else has that?
the local site pain is as much from the "injection" as the actual med or vaccine being given. they may have caused a little leak in a capillary bed, or vein. is their any bruising? still not much to worry about unless red or very swollen. the systemic symptoms are more from the effects of the vaccine on the immune system. you can try ICE (ice, compression, elevation)
Quote from: Peter Drouin on May 02, 2021, 07:03:27 AM
Been 3 weeks since my #2 shot and my shoulder is sore all the way to my elbow. Anyone else has that?
My after-effects lasted a month after the 2nd moderna. Not severe but definitely there
The arm looks good. Just real sore.
The FDA is expected to approve Pfizer for kids down to 12 years next week. I will be happy to get my 13 year old vaccinated. It seems like only a matter of time with being at school and with playing so much soccer that he would get the virus. He is very good though about wearing his N95 at school. I think they expect to release it to much younger kids by the end of summer.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on May 05, 2021, 08:50:09 AMI think they expect to release it to much younger kids by the end of summer.
@
firefighterI have a 7 and 8 year old and I'm not so patiently waiting till they can get a vaccine, but what I'm seeing reported based on current progress for the under age 12 studies which are just getting underway, might be more like first quarter of 2022?
Have you come across info showing sooner?
they tend to be stingy with kids, unless catastrophic potential. overall kids do not get as sick. The majority of other corona viruses cause a common cold. We have tested for those on a 22 antigen (different viruses) respiratory panel swab for years. It used to have 4 coronas on it, and they replaced one of those with C19. Parents that go around trying to sign their young kids up for drug studies are looked at with suspicion. We use many drugs in pediatrics that have not been well studied. they get studied more as they are needed to be used. Many kids are going to be immune, as they got the disease and were asymptomatic. I suspect, but it has not been confirmed, that kids are somewhat protected as they are possibly immune to the other corona viruses. they are more likely to get C19 since they will be the last to be able to get vaccinated. as we develop more heard immunity, the kids will also be at less risk as the prevalence is lower. Of course if it is your kid that happens to gets really sick, none of the above comments will make it any better.
My family was always quick to get us kids vaccinated, probably because my dads twin brother had polio at 3-4 years old and walked with crutches the rest of his life.
Quote from: Lostinmn on May 05, 2021, 10:53:04 AM
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on May 05, 2021, 08:50:09 AMI think they expect to release it to much younger kids by the end of summer.
@firefighter
I have a 7 and 8 year old and I'm not so patiently waiting till they can get a vaccine, but what I'm seeing reported based on current progress for the under age 12 studies which are just getting underway, might be more like first quarter of 2022?
Have you come across info showing sooner?
I have not seen any references to young children being vaccinated earlier than end of summer, but I think there is reason to be hopeful. A week ago they were saying that kids from 12 to 18 would be able to get vaccine this summer. Now its next week. Perhaps the same will happen with the younger kids. As Doc said, the young kids are at low risk, but risk nonetheless. Just by us parents getting vaccinated, their risk has gone way down. I'm a firefighter/emt and my wife is an audiologist and we were both often exposed to patients. My kids biggest risk was me until I got vaccinated.
Covid booster shot: Moderna says vaccine generates promising immune response against variants (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/05/covid-booster-shot-moderna-says-vaccine-generates-promising-immune-response-against-variants.html)
Va to remove covid restrictions and mask mandate for fully vaccinated people.
Times Dispatch story (http://click1.newsletter.richmond.com/mnnmwyddbdzlpcnwltqyylpbkplvkmpbpwsgcsdyncpdptt_thzbbwpvjpklczlwjwwww.html?a=9430c56e21b54b553a753cb9a5918b7f2dd8220f)
Question is: will someone be checking your card at the door? "Your papers please". Will some people be wearing masks still, like a scarlet letter?
In any case, it's a move towards normal. Yessssss!
I go in Tuesday this coming week for my first shot of Pfizer-BioNTech. :)
good luck, it will likely go very well.
My wife and I both had the vaccine jab, about two weeks ago.
Quick and efficient, no side effects at all.
Bet your experience will be the same SwampDonkey.
Looks like in the state of Maine, on May 24,if you had The Shot you don't have to wear a mask.
I wonder if you will have to carry The Card to show proof of The Shot? ??? ???
Or have we simply gotten the bulk of immunity done by vaccine and now it is time to get the rest of the herd immunized the other way. A vax skeptic friend's entire family just came off quarantine, happily all fine now but those weren't weenie side effects. If you're gonna be dumb you better be tough.
Quote from: thecfarm on May 16, 2021, 05:45:43 AM
Looks like in the state of Maine, on May 24,if you had The Shot you don't have to wear a mask.
I wonder if you will have to carry The Card to show proof of The Shot? ??? ???
I used my phone to take a close up photo of the card showing dates, batch numbers, etc. don't know if I'll need it but it's in the phone.
I still wonder WHY they didn't come up with a card-size that could be easily carried in your wallet without folding it! :-\
Snowflakes don't have wallets, they have "satchels" so the cards fit fine for them... :D
I had my second shot today. When they gave me my card they said to take a picture of it with my phone. Photo copying is not allowed. I asked the lady who would be asking to see my card, are there going to be vaccine police after May 24th? She said I don't know why, just no photo copies allowed.
Quote from: Ricker on May 16, 2021, 08:14:44 PMWhen they gave me my card they said to take a picture of it with my phone. Photo copying is not allowed.
What do they think taking a picture with your phone is? It's not photo copying?
The VA medical center near me made a copy of my vac card since I got the shots from a non-VA place.
Probably got a mixed up message.
I bet they won't accept a photocopy if you turn up for your 2nd shot with only that?
But if you have a picture of it on your phone you have all the details needed to check their records and issue you a replacement card.
Obviously you would need to take a copy if your regular Dr, employer or foreign immigration needed to check your status, but that's just for their records. I can see that becoming an issue soon, rather than the "vaccine police" as such. More "So you want to get on our nice freshly cleaned Cruise Ship do you?. Lets see your vaccination status."
"Sure, I've got a copy on my phone, I'll email it to you".
Just more foolishness I think. The info on the card, for verification purposes, is the same whether it's a picture on your phone or a photocopy. I'm not an anti mask guy and never questioned whether I should get vaccinated but some of the rules we have had to deal with off and on over the past year plus have left me scratching my head.
When I got my 2nd Pfizer the gentleman entertaining us encouraged us to have it laminated. When and if we get the booster he said they would give us a new card. The county health department has a record and will issue us a new card if we lose ours, run it through the wash, let it get eaten by the dog, etc. He also stated he kept his with his passport.
Even though most of the stores have dropped it, out of courtesy to the hired help I'll continue to wear a mask. Between keeping the store clean, the shelves stocked, they've got enough to do.
My son who will be 14 next week got his Pfizer today. I will check in the morning to see if he has any side affects.
Going to get the J&J this afternoon.
My son was feeling a little under the weather about 24 hours post shot, but then less than 24 hours later he was all good again. He complained of a runny nose, which I hadn't heard of as a side affect.
typical viral though. not usual for covid the disease, but common for other corona viruses (cold viruses). ;)
We did the one and done today. So far both feel ok. We did both take some ibuprofen as a little insurance this evening.
Here in MN things are getting back to normal. I've heard we are the leading state in per cent of people vaccinated and the stores have signs that say if you are vaccinated no mask is required and few people are wearing them anymore. It's nice to be able to smile at other shoppers again.
Quote from: Gary_C on May 22, 2021, 01:37:51 AMHere in MN things are getting back to normal.
Out here, the Governor says the magic day will be June 15th and we don't have to wear masks anymore ??? He is also the target of a recall election so I think he is just trying to make himself look good.::)
By taking his mask off? that ain't gonna go well :D
Just wanted to share something timely from Dr. Schmitdke. She sorta focuses on Kansas this time, but she used to be here in Georgia. What's helpful is the methodology. Admins feel free to delete. Tin foil is for wrapping corn, ribs, brisket, etc.
Evaluating risk this Memorial Day weekend - Georgia COVID-19 Updates (https://amberschmidtkephd.substack.com/p/evaluating-risk-this-memorial-day)
Question for doc henderson, I gave blood last Wednesday the 28th and had gotten the J&J vaccine previously on the 19th. My donation shows negative for antibodies. Does this mean the vaccine did me no good?
I am not sure if the antibody they look for is produced by the vaccine. i think you can email the red cross. i can ask our pathologist or lab techs and they can help me find out. for the virus that gets broken into bits, there may be thousands of different antibodies produced. the vaccine maybe a few or 1 specific. not all are protective in natural immunity, and may only serve as a marker. even without antibodies, there is cellular immunity so you can see antibodies go down and still have immunity. this is why we do not know how long immunity lasts, and one vaccine may help with variants/mutants better than another. Welcome to my world :).
Thanks doc.
Just read about a guy in MD that won their $40,000 lottery for getting vaccinated. he says he survived covid which served as his incentive to get the covid vaccination later. Am I missing something here? Why would he get the shot except to try for that money?
we do not really know how long immunity lasts. I would think that all the antibodies produced with natural disease would be the strongest and longest. We also know with research that some immunizations last longer with repeated dosed, and becomes stronger. like the first two vaccines using 2 shots. Hep B we got in medical school required 3 shots, and a measured titer after to be deemed immune. for years we got MMR as a child, now with out breaks, they are giving a booster in our teens. (for measles). we are now immunizing for human papilloma virus. the viral disease can be sexually transmitted. you do not know you have it, but later it is the cause for many female cancers. I knew a great OB/GYN who dies of cancer in his 40 from getting cancer in his eye from doing colposcopies and getting lasered bits and pieces of the virus in his face. very sad. Most cancers are from a breakdown in DNA copies or repair. If you do not die of heart disease, copd, or diabetes in your 60s, you will prob. get cancer in your 80s. enjoy! :)
What a delightful prognosis, thanks Doc! 8)
The big C is coming to my house. When I finish this braunschweiger sandwich I'll check on my affairs.
Should I go ahead with the newest shingles shot (we both had the original version) or not waste the time I have left? I did get another pneumonia shot last week.
It's gotta be something but I hope I die working or playing, that die in yer sleep thing is for wusses?
Honestly I knew something is up cause at my last doc visit(she's a girl doc and better looking than the FF version) I got asked the old fart questions: draw a clock with 3:30 on it; have you had real sex in the past 12 months?; then she gave me three words to remember later and I failed that one as I'd forgotten one of them. ::)
try to stay healthy, it is not inevitable at that age, but more likely. eventually it will get us all. they used to site Japanese as being healthy due to diet and staying thin. no MIs, but after moving here and a generation or two later, they adapt to our diet, and gain weight and start with the same problems. traditionally a Japanese family would share a 3 oz. piece of meat. that is what the rice was for. Like the potatoes in Ireland. Pasta in Italy ect. We always stretch the expensive meat with starch. If your society has more than enough, we eat 8 oz. of meat with all the carbs and starch we can hold. you only need 3 oz. protein each day. the extra is changed to sugar by removing nitrogen ( nitrogenous waste/urine) and then it provides the same 4 calories / gram as sugar and starches. fat is 9 calories per gram, and why it is the storage form in the body. when you take in too many calories, and start storing it, the excess fat cannot be removed fast enough from the blood stream and you get cholesterol plaques the get calcified over time (hardening of the arteries) and start having heart attacks and high blood pressure, along with diabetes. you can eat all you want, as long as you burn it up each day, and not try to store too much. now back to our regularly scheduled program. :)
Every one of my firefighters that got covid also got the vaccine. I believe they felt like the side affects of the vaccine couldn't compare to how bad covid made them feel and they definitely didn't want to get covid again. Plus, it seems that the severity of your covid infection can also play a part in how much natural immunity you get. Therefore, mild case could lead to poor protection.
Just tail more boards kantuckid. :D :D
My tractors still dead (after nearly 2 months! so no FEL, logs laying in the woods, sawmill lonely, cabin project lonely) and 4 young grand daughters been here lately so keeping them entertained mostly. One of them likes the shop and I've helped her make over 3 dozen bread and cutting boards. She sells them to her Mom's teaching buddies at school. She sold over $200 worth of trivets we made in an earlier visit.
This is panning out to be the first year since the 1970's that we didn't have a big garden. I can't finish it w/o my tractor and cannot find anyone to pay to come up and harrow & till it with my equipment. So, we are stuck on ~ 40 maters plants and some peppers this year in our raised bed in front of the house.
My wife was hoeing and dug into a large copperhead few days ago. it sort of went away then she called me. I found it coiled about 8" deep beside a mater plant. Looked like it had just molted as big and shiny. I don't bother the poisonous snakes in the woods but kill the ones beside the house & yard.
We both eat meat but sparingly. I'll buy a marked down steak @ wally and cut into strips for fajitas and we'll get 4 meals from it. A roast same thing-only when we have company. When I smoke pork on the grill I pull it all then bag & freeze for one sandwich apiece per meal now & then. Neither of us is fat and we don't avoid exercise. Living on land as we do is sure not for lazy folks.
Covid has curtailed our mtn biking though! In Sept we'll head out again for the first time our RV trailer been out in a long time- probably to Medicine Bow NF area & the Front range in CO, then Indian Boundary CG in TN mtns, off Cherahola Skyway with kids in October, then AZ next winter as FL is impossible to get into a campsite.
Busy but not in the woods for now. Health is a precious thing, covid or not and my wellness visit was unremarkable recently, knock on wood. ;D
Nova Scotia is just getting over the third wave now, most cases were in the capital area (Halifax 200 miles from me), my area health region (extends about 80 miles in each direction from me) is up to 15 known cases since covid19 began. Once again being at the end of no where has its advantages. :)
Stats reported today.
They say there were 3,902 cases from March 15 to June 1, of those:
24 (0.6 per cent) were fully vaccinated
187 (4.8 per cent) were partially vaccinated
3,691 (94.6 per cent) were unvaccinated
242 people hospitalized, of those:
2 (0.8 per cent) were fully vaccinated
26 (10.7 per cent) were partially vaccinated
214 (88.4 per cent) were unvaccinated
19 people have died, of those:
1 (5.3 per cent) was fully vaccinated
2 (10.5 per cent) were partially vaccinated
16 (84.2 per cent) were unvaccinated
Quote from: doc henderson on June 03, 2021, 11:49:52 AM
If you do not die of heart disease, copd, or diabetes in your 60s, you will prob. get cancer in your 80s. enjoy! :)
At 72 I'm in the sweet spot. So, I suppose no limit on ice cream and chocolate syrup snacks at night. Bacon double cheeseburgers no problem! I'm stocking up on the good stuff my stuffy old doctor says I can't eat!!!!
It's amazing to me that people can be bribed to get a shot by such small things as free beer.
Free beer- I'm remembering that ad- "I'd walk a mile for a Camel". People being people do some seriously stupid stuff. I just read about the spokes lady/nurse's comments fore a hospital staff that says they are unwilling to be guinea pigs for the vaccine. I thought those who were in the trials and now the millions who got the shots since then are the real test? Figures above by hilltop366 hold up that notion, don't they?
I /we got the shots to go on living and make for a safe world too. I sure didn't feel "used" by getting the shots?
Our county has some 60,000 souls and a daily drive thru population using our community as a resting area of unknown numbers. We have a seven day average of 3 new cases of the virus, and a seven day average of 0 for deaths. We were in the upper tier of counties for a long while due to our aging population (retirement from oil and gas industry) but now see a slow down in cases. We are also one of the areas where there is a "hell no I'm not being vaccinated" attitude, only some 30% of population has been vaccinated.
we are seeing a slight up-tic in younger folks here as the mask mandate is lifted.
Quote from: doc henderson on June 06, 2021, 09:10:21 AM
we are seeing a slight up-tic in younger folks here as the mask mandate is lifted.
No doubt. They are out "proving" their point.
@Hilltop366 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=8975) I do not have any first or second hand info on NS. fully vaccinated here is 2 weeks after the final dose. I have seen cases after the first dose and even soon after the second dose. i.e. were prob. exposed and incubating before the final dose. You can get it after vaccination, but you should not be nearly as sick, many are asymptomatic and only known through testing. and far less likely to die. some folks are near death or have tons of comorbid factors, and die in proximity to the disease. Long term effects cannot be know as we have only had the vaccine for less than a year. i got my first dose Dec. 16 of 2020. No vaccine is 100% effective and without risk. I do think a there are as of yet, unknown or unproven side effects. It might make sense that the immune response to the vaccine could mimic those of the disease. If you die from covid, you will have no further side effects. :)
When I told my allergy doc of my 2nd shots strong reaction (I was fishing for a reaction so mentioned it) she said that was a positive as it signified that my immune system was operating well.
I guess my system isn't working very well, as I had no side effects worth griping about.
Not much going on, on this thread, now!
Things must be improving, I see a lot of places are opening up!
Yep! Going so well, that on Tuesday, June 15th, the Governor is lifting the Mask Mandate, the Stay at Home Order (we still had that in effect?) and a few other restrictions.
For the last month or more, Southern Manitoba was the NorthAmerican hotspot for Covid. We're starting to turn the corner now, the R number is decreasing, but ICU's are still showing near capacity numbers.
Our political leaders are now, finally, connecting personal restriction limits to positivity rates and medical capacity.
It feels good to be more relaxed and personable around people now.
We shopped in Meijer the other day and they have this guy posted at the door where the greeter would normally stand. He's got a name tag on and appears to be a nurse type of person in waiting for something. He has a grocery cart with what must be some medical setup that's covered by cloth in an obvious attempt to not call attention to it. My best guess is he takes a hard look at us as we walk in for signs of whatever? Sort of weird IMO?
Meanwhile, in spite of our state being open to whatever activity I see lots of mask people shopping and working in restaurants. Our local clinic still requires masking, stores have signs stating no mask if you've been vaccinated.
I took a brief look/see at the NYT's global list of vaccinations around the world. Many non-3rd world countries lag on the shot. World travel remains an issue. Back to my honey do list...
Our rules are starting to relax. Starting tomorrow we can have 50 people at an indoor gathering and travel restrictions are lifted. Unecessary inter province travel is still being discouraged.
The hospitality industry which has taken a real beating is poised to reopen but there is a severe staffing issue. People seem reluctant to change their routines and there are subsidy programs that are meeting their needs, easier to spend summer at the beach. They also don't want to come back to short term minimum wage jobs. There is one restaurant left in this town of 3,000, two if you want vegan/vegetarian.
eventually everyone will need to be immune, either from the disease or immunization. we will have to see how long the immunity will last, and it may be different from the dx. or shot. may need both for longer immunity. then if it mutates enough, may need ongoing immunization. we will see, but are in a better place for now. :)
What are the facts that if immunized, you can be still get C19 ?, not as severe an illness but now you are asymptymatic and a spreader?
less symptomatic, and also less contagious as the virus gets shut down early before the numbers get too high. viral load is what makes a person more contagious, and the bigger the dose, the more likely the next person will get it. so if everyone was immunized, it may shut down completely, like small pox. the concern is for mutation, and if it will require a different shot each year like influenzae. It is hard to know the numbers, as people who are asymptomatic, will not be tested, so would require a dedicated study. so far seems like your chance of dying goes down. lots of talk about if it leaked and medications that have been around for year that might help if given early on. we will know so much in 10 years, and hopefully the average joe will no longer care, if it is contained.
In respect to some of the non-vaccinators concerns-when is an FDA full approval forthcoming?
When will studies fully resolve the covid vaccination of our youth?
Here in KY I just read an article stating that nursing home staff vaccination rates run from less than 1 in 5, up to 44% average statewide. The admins say they are understaffed as is and afraid they'll run off their help if they mandate the shot, meanwhile the Lou, KY hospital staff was denied their suit to not be forced to get the shot recently. I am aware that many nursing home staff are among the working poor and also often have low education levels.
I gave/administered the nurses aid written test at my school for many years. It was done fairly often due to very high turnover and more than a few times I gave that test orally to non-readers.
How can our public ever reach immunization levels that make things safer for us all? My concern is based on seasonal flu vaccination rates that are exactly the same as what's now the covid vaccination rate. There was a time when younger that I didn't bother with the seasonal flu vaccination-maybe around my late 40's did I make it a regular thing. FWIW, in 1964 the US Army forced the seasonal flu vaccinations on us @ Ft Leonard Wood, MO.
the solution is the non vax folks will get the disease. either way we will get to a critical mass and get things back to "normal" I hope. remember, normal is what you are used to. 10 years of covid, and it will be the new normal.
"Normal" as seen lately and in myriad ways beyond covid, is not the "normal" in my minds eye... :D watch what you wish for huh?
Not sure what the vaccination rate among nursing home staff is here in Georgia. I prefer calling them LTC facilities, assisted living facilities. Most of the ones I've been in might have a nurse on duty, the rest of the staff has CPR qualifications, maybe. Green card that will stand up to more than a cursory inspection, no. I've had both Pfizer shots, and they've applied for full approval. In my brief but honorable service according to my DD 214 I can't remember being asked if I was willing to be vaccinated.
When I think of the new normal I remember what happened to recreational sex in the 80's when things that penicillin couldn't cure emerged.
Still popular, just different.
With the Delta variation running around folks have a choice on lotteries, get a vaccination and win a prize, or dont and get Covid. Either way if they survive the Covid they will have immunity its just the added risk of death on Long Coivd with not getting the shot.
No vaccine is 100% effective, I think the Pfizers are 95% so that means vaccinated folks have a 1 in 20 chance of catching it but odds are they will have mild case of it. There have been articles that some folks on immunosuppressant drugs for things like Lupus, rheumatoid arthritis and Crohns may get it despite the vaccine as the drugs mess with the immune response which is what the vaccines are designed to crank up. A friend who takes those was told he may need a booster shot after some period of time off the other drugs.
I've been thinking along the same lines as Claybraker, wondering if the military personnel have a choice!
When I was in, when it came Flu Shot time, if you refused to get the vaccine you were told "If you get the Flu and are to sick for duty, you were put on Leave status or you were on Bad Time", which you had to make up for!
the military chain of command including the medical folks will make that determination. If it is determined needed to be combat ready, then there will be little choice. (severe allergy, medical condition, religion) we are seeing parainfluenza 3, normally a spring and fall event, pushed back by mitigation. causes croup in kids under 5 and laryngitis in adults. It will not be mandatory al least until after fully approved. still on experimental approval now. Remember the "immune" include folks who got the disease and the immunized. if enough people are not immune, it can float around enough to mutate, and then if the vaccine and previous strains did not confer immunity to cover a new strain, we start all over a gain, but with more knowledge.
Quote from: peakbagger on June 23, 2021, 05:04:17 PMso that means vaccinated folks have a 1 in 20 chance of catching it but odds are they will have mild case of it.
It's better odds than that, you can meet someone with the virus, and still NOT get infected. So you are 20X LESS likely to be infected. No one is sure what the actual chance of getting infected is, it's not 100%. Some people catch it, and never pass it on, even to their family, Others catch it and give it to 10 more people to make up for that.
So the chances of catching it are ... some number. Chances are catching after being vaccinated is 20X less.
And as the vaccinated numbers go up... If 1/2 the population is now immune, then your chances are catching it are already at least 50% less. Add in the 95% improvement in your odds from the vaccine. As more and more people get the vaccine, those odds get less and less until "herd immunity".
You can still end up with 5 or 10% of the population vulnerable to the virus, but they won't catch it, because everyone around them is immune and the virus isn't actively circulating. So even those technically vulnerable folks have only a 0.01% chance of catching it. and about the same odds of passing it on.
I heard a number on last nights TV news that when you add the 100 million in USA who have had covid to those vaccinated you are closer than you think.
A concern of mine is for the millions of college students who have immunity, yet being forced to vaccinate and the irony of that at universities where much of the staff has stayed home and remain unvaccinated and not forced to do so age aside.
The doctor who invented the mrna vaccines-Pifer & Moderna ones- he was on FOX news last night and a very intersting interview as they discussed his notion of who should/should not be vaccinated at this time. He also expressed concerns that the studies are not bein g done as followup to all those who've been vaccinated. As doc Henderson says-someday we'll know more but that doc said we'd know more IF! those studies were being done. In the rush to get shots in arms much has been laid aside it seems.
I don't understand the requirement/mandate that unvaccinated people must segregate and wear masks. There is no mandate to prove your are vaccinated, and if you decide not to get the vaccine, why would a mask be needed among the vaccinated?
No vaccine is your own decision and at your own risk, your are not going to infect the vaccinated people which was the reason for wearing the mask (so we were told).
170M people vaccinated already, doesn't sound experimental anymore..
JJ
The CDC advisory committee also met yesterday in their "emergency meeting" they postponed for almost two weeks and did declare there is a connection between the heart inflammation issues after vaccination and the two mRNA vaccines. In the end they essentially only modified their recommendations as to timing of the shots if there is an adverse reaction because of their analysis of the "risk/benefit" as being slightly tilted in favor of recommending the shots.
First problem with that is the benefit is highly skewed towards community benefit thru the use of modeling which in the early days of this pandemic have been wildly inaccurate. Their new models predict a surge in cases this fall due to the "delta" variant if everyone is not fully vaccinated. What the CDC did not do is look into lowering the dose or only requiring one shot for the 12-19 year old's which is what some doctors believe would reduce the incidents of adverse reactions. There was some evidence presented that showed a lower dose would reduce the incidents of adverse reactions but I did not see any evidence of levels of immunity with lower doses. So far, levels of immunity to the virus for both previously infected and those vaccinated is either being ignored or is not available.
The effectiveness of the two mRNA vaccines was reported as being very close to 95% in reducing infections and 100% in reducing hospitalizations.
at some point, it may be that we check for immunity, before you get the vaccine. i.e. the folks who already had asymptomatic infection. the infection likely confers a better long lasting immunity than and immunization. Yes the CDC is looking at the heard not the individual. Almost al myocarditis is caused by your immune system going over board in response to a virus. It may be the stats are the same weather it is from the shot or the virus. so if you do not get the shot and you will get the disease and have the same risk of myocarditis. had we not mitigated, remember, you may have died when you tried to get your loved one into the locked hospital that was protected by the national guard or got there and no nurses or doctors were well enough to work at all. maybe would have lost 5 million instead of 600,000.
It's also now known that the virus mostly attacks blood vessels, not specifically lungs. Of course lungs contain a lot of blood vessels, are probably an initial entry point for the virus (breathing it in), and damage to the lungs makes you noticeably sick very quickly.
But other organs like the brain and heart also contain a lot of blood vessels, and those can also be attacked and damaged. This leads to all those diverse "long covid" cases, and this damage has been documented with scans etc by the Drs studying the long covid cases.
I expect what the CDC decided was that although there is a remote chance that the vaccine could have a negative side effect, the chances of the virus having a negative effect is both known, and MUCH more likely. And that includes damage to a persons heart. This is accepted for pretty much any vaccine.
While the CDC is looking at overall statistics, individual safety does come into it. If the vaccine is even close to as likely to harm you as the virus, then it shouldn't be used. But if it's say a million times safer than getting the virus, which seems to be the case, then it should be used.
Quote from: doc henderson on June 24, 2021, 05:46:53 PM
at some point, it may be that we check for immunity, before you get the vaccine. i.e. the folks who already had asymptomatic infection. the infection likely confers a better long lasting immunity than and immunization.
The problem is that Fauci has already stated with all certainty (and absolutely no data to back up his claim) that immunity from an exposure is not adequate nor any where as good as the immunity from the vaccine. So as a result everyone is supposed to still get vaccinated regardless of previous infections. It's the old "shut up and get vaccinated" edict.
I read that now they will be sending folks door to door to "encourage" those who have not been jabbed to go and get shot. Wonder if the census info will be cross referenced with vaccine records to know what houses to visit?
Likely to encounter "Banjo Billy" in this neck of the woods if they do drop in. Has crazy eyes, smiles at the wrong time, kinda laughs to himself, keeps saying something about "we got one", stands a bit too close for comfort. No laws broken, but not the kind you want to hang around with way out in the boonies and attempt to have a "convincing conversation" with.
Here's some reading about Covid's effect on the heart. A "common" after effect is inflammation of the heart muscles. (myocarditis).
Heart Problems after COVID-19 | Johns Hopkins Medicine (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/heart-problems-after-covid19)
Myocarditis is often a side effect of the bodies immune response, basically the same as getting a swelling at the injection site in your arm, just it's your heart muscle. What was unexpected was that it's mainly showing up in young males. Cases were "expected", but it was thought they would affect older people more than young, while the reverse has been true.
Also note that no one has yet died of this side effect, and most recover after maybe 4 days.
This article talks about the CDC data and how they make the decisions.
Here?s all the data on myocarditis cases linked to COVID-19 vaccines | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/06/heres-all-the-data-on-myocarditis-cases-linked-to-covid-19-vaccines/)
Summary.
Don't vaccinate teenage males, and per million, over 120 days expect
5,700 Covid cases.
215 need hospital care.
71 moving to ICU
and probably 2 deaths.
(Teens are much LESS vulnerable to Covid, but not immune)
That's over 4 months,and the pandemic is still a thing as you have a pool of non vaccinated teens to keep it going. Pass it on to the 5% that the vaccine didn't take, or the folks that can't have it for medical reasons, or the anti-vaxers. And there is a good chance of new mutations developing. So those 5,700 cases only relate to the teens, not the rest of the population they manage to infect over that time.
Vs a million vaccinations that might cause about 60 Myocarditis cases, some will need hospital care, but probably no ICU admissions or deaths. The Myocarditis is likely a reason some of the real Covid cases needed hospital care anyway.
Those are the real world numbers the CDC currently has to work with. What conclusion would you draw given the same figures?
There is an exhaustingly informative article about Crown viruses, the labs that study them and much more as the lead article in todays NYT's newspaper-google the article-"The Warnings About the Coronavirus that Were Ignored" by Dr. Zeynep Tufekci. You will come away after several minutes wondering what comes next. The article begins in the 1950's and moves forward to the here and now of coronaviruses.
It is not a politically focused article at all! It relies on the history and various research and human population affects of past corona viruses. The Chinese Wuhan Lab is heavily involved along with her own location in NC as well as other locales.
The article, in my words, might best be re-named, More than you ever thought you'd hear/read about coronaviruses? Yes, it's both scary and interesting too.
Quote from: Chuck White on June 23, 2021, 09:27:26 PM
I've been thinking along the same lines as Claybraker, wondering if the military personnel have a choice!
When I was in, when it came Flu Shot time, if you refused to get the vaccine you were told "If you get the Flu and are to sick for duty, you were put on Leave status or you were on Bad Time", which you had to make up for!
Along this line of thought: I got a flu vaccination not that long before I entered active duty in 1964 as a civilian and got a bad case of the flu directly afterwards. I adopted the idea that I'd not make that mistake again. Then at Ft Leonard Wood, MO in the summer of 1964 I spent some seriously hot days in the barracks with a bad case of the flu directly after being forced to get the shot there with everybody else.
Another sort of funny side joke we all had, is that when I/we went on sick call it was common practice that no matter what ailed you they gave you a small bottle of Cepacol! As if it was some sort of miracle cure. :D
A few minutes ago I googled the history of flu vaccines and it seems that I am mistaken in thinking that I was given a live vaccine back at those first two shots? It was many years later when I changed my attitude and began to get a seasonal flu shot-maybe around 25 years or so later. Now, as a senior I try to stay vaccinated via the senior version of seasonal flu vaccine-which they seem to be out of each year until I keep checking back.
From what I've heard/read from professionals the data concurs with the comments of Ianab above but it also emphasizes that the collection of data has not been done as a serious study, it's just collected information so far. Until the real work gets done it's not a true study of the data, but of course it's all we've got so far.
Quote from: kantuckid on June 25, 2021, 07:52:24 AMit's just collected information so far. Until the real work gets done it's not a true study of the data, but of course it's all we've got so far.
At this time that's really all that we are going to have to work with.
Medical ethics basically rules out blind placebo trials once you have completed clinic testing and know the medication works. If you gave 1/2 the vaccine patients a placebo, and some died, that's unacceptable, because you now KNOW that with the vaccine they are very unlikely to even get seriously sick.
But you can still for example observe the results in vaccinated people, and compare that with people that haven't had the vaccine. Or observe the outcomes from different approved vaccines. All the approved vaccines are "safe" and "effective", but one might work slightly better, or have less side effects. Hence collecting and analysing the information.
I am far (really far ;D) from qualified to react specifically to your comment but the Doc who invented the mnra vaccines says "the work" is not being done as should be. I'll take his word until I hear differently.
there was an article on the search engine this am that was misleading. it states that 4,000 people have been hospitalized and 700 have dies that were fully immunized and had covid. many of the people were asymptomatic and admitted for other reasons. we often have to check people admitted to the hospital for many reasons, just to know what floor to put them on. so they were not admitted for covid, were asymptomatic, just tested. Along the same lines, many of the deaths reported were not related to covid, but they died in the hospital and happened to have tested +. the tittle even implied that they were hospitalized, and died due to the vaccine. Man. :o
That almost mirrors the complaint of how covid was named for deaths where there were serious comorbidities.
Quote from: Ianab on June 25, 2021, 04:57:48 AM
Here's some reading about Covid's effect on the heart. A "common" after effect is inflammation of the heart muscles. (myocarditis).
Heart Problems after COVID-19 | Johns Hopkins Medicine (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/heart-problems-after-covid19)
Myocarditis is often a side effect of the bodies immune response, basically the same as getting a swelling at the injection site in your arm, just it's your heart muscle. What was unexpected was that it's mainly showing up in young males. Cases were "expected", but it was thought they would affect older people more than young, while the reverse has been true.
Also note that no one has yet died of this side effect, and most recover after maybe 4 days.
This article talks about the CDC data and how they make the decisions.
Here?s all the data on myocarditis cases linked to COVID-19 vaccines | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/06/heres-all-the-data-on-myocarditis-cases-linked-to-covid-19-vaccines/)
Summary.
Don't vaccinate teenage males, and per million, over 120 days expect
5,700 Covid cases.
215 need hospital care.
71 moving to ICU
and probably 2 deaths.
(Teens are much LESS vulnerable to Covid, but not immune)
That's over 4 months,and the pandemic is still a thing as you have a pool of non vaccinated teens to keep it going. Pass it on to the 5% that the vaccine didn't take, or the folks that can't have it for medical reasons, or the anti-vaxers. And there is a good chance of new mutations developing. So those 5,700 cases only relate to the teens, not the rest of the population they manage to infect over that time.
Vs a million vaccinations that might cause about 60 Myocarditis cases, some will need hospital care, but probably no ICU admissions or deaths. The Myocarditis is likely a reason some of the real Covid cases needed hospital care anyway.
Those are the real world numbers the CDC currently has to work with. What conclusion would you draw given the same figures?
I have 2 friends in thier 60's that came down with Myocarditis after thier 1st shot. Neither one of them reported it as an advers reaction, Thier Dr's told them not to worry and go get thier next 2nd vaccine shot. They were given some sort of prescription, then booked for follow up testing. they were told it had nothing to do with the vaccine.
My thoughts , if I know 2 people with myocarditis not reported.
How many other cases were not reported?
Just my thoughts for the day
that is true, and others go undiagnosed. It is "required" to report as it is a drug under investigation. also remember this virus, and many others also have myocarditis and other heart problems (conduction issues) as a complication. the myocarditis is mostly in young males, and last about 4 days and fully resolves. imagine having heart inflammation, and viral pneumonia, and renal failure all at the same time on a ventilator. this is what most die from is multisystem organ failure. old people already have about half the reserve of a younger person. this is why the high mortality rate. it was estimated by an old German pathology professor of mine that we all loose 1% per year after age forty of our renal capacity. that is a normal healthy person. so at age 90, you are down at to half your kidney function. 200 years ago, most men dies at age 40. It continues to appear that the vaccine is much safer than the disease, and cannot be spread to others. so this is how we control the spread. This is nature (poss./prob. augmented by a lab) and we do not make the rules. :)
Quote from: doc henderson on June 27, 2021, 01:07:41 PM
It continues to appear that the vaccine is much safer than the disease, and cannot be spread to others. so this is how we control the spread.
I completely agree with you about the goal being to control the spread. However the vaccine should not be the only tool in the toolbox. Acquired immunity is now being ignored and it should be an equal tool to fight the spread. To dismiss or ignore both the side effects of the vaccines and the benefits of acquired immunity at the same time is simply wrong.
And then there is the forced vaccination of young people that are not really at risk of either getting infected or spreading the infection.
we could have let it run ramped, and got it over in a month. many more people would have died. we could just barely keep up during the peak as it was. the all at once scenario, would have looked like one of those zombie apockolypse movies. I mean all hospital and stores closed. looting for food and water. mass chaos. The government may not talk about it when they are pushing the vaccine, but medical people realize that the combination of natural disease plus the vaccinated will create the herd scenario, and stop the disease. the problem is that now we have a mutation that may require another vaccine. when you get the disease, you make about a million or more copies of the virus. chances of making a copy error goes up. that is what a mutation is. remember we used mitigation with distance, reduce travel and group size, hand sanitizer, masks, store closure. it was not perfect. many of the doctors in the big government institutions, are more politician than caregiver. At least we are all still here (for now) to talk about it. :)
God Bless you doc. You're a hero in my eyes and I don't hand that status to many.
Oh don't take my words wrong doc. Like you I'm all in for the vaccine and was eager to get my shot ASAP. It's just that now as we get to the fringes of the herd is it really necessary for the people with acquired immunity from an infection to be forced to get a shot anyway?
Also I've got a 15 year old grandson who was about to be vaccinated when this enlarged heart issue came up so I warned my daughter about the issue and advised her to talk to her doctor before getting his shot. Daughter is still waiting for doctors OK but it has created a family issue with the scientist side of the family not wanting to be around the unvaccinated grandson even though literally everyone else in the family is vaccinated. Either we have confidence in the vaccines or it makes no sense to get vaccinated.
As far as the mutations like this Delta variant, my science expert tells me that viruses always mutate but as they mutate they always always weaken. That absolute trend seems to be the case with this mutation as it may be more infectious but less virulent. That is certainly the case with this mutation as the cases and hospitalizations are way down plus deaths may well be back to normal levels.
So all drugs have risks and side effects and I am not convinced that it is time to use the potential risk of this Delta mutation to force people who may have severe adverse effects to get vaccinated if it is not necessary. I'm comfortable with my vaccine protection so I do not want to force anyone else to get vaccinated for my benefit.
PS: I just talked to my old high school buddy that got a bad case of the virus and spent most of last October in the hospital fighting the resulting pneumonia among other things. He said his doctor now insisted he get the vaccine because of this recent and previous bouts of pneumonia and when he did get vaccinated he got real sick again with various ailments and says his arms are still sore from where he got the shots. Doctor is sure it was his immune system fighting the vaccine because he was already immune from the infection.
So the question now is why do we not test for immunity and recognize that natural immunity from infections is as good as the vaccines?
Gary good luck with the family stuff. I think that natural immunity is prob. better than the vaccine. It is true that all the complication from either the vaccine or the disease are from your immune system waging war on the virus (dead packet of rna/dna). Yes replication has a risk of a mistake (mutation), but that 1 in a million can make it more virulent or contagious. of course in a lab, it is easy to add things and get a super bug. sounds like we are kind of on the same page.
Roxie, boy did I need to hear something like that today. Hours of computer junk with this new company, and I was getting a little disheartened.
still have lots of research to complete, and things to learn about this virus. God bless all.
It is sad, and likely due to president election+covid that shutdowns, masks, and vaccine has become so politicized. Hard to trust what you hear on MSM which has been/is politically edged, and keeps flip-flopping. Also big tech selective censorship isn't helping people build any trust with what they do hear.
Doc Henderson, you I trust and you have been a great source of clear and level-headed advice ever since you started this thread. I am grateful that you did this and you are my hero too..
Take Care
JJ
Just sharing some information from a vaccine expert. Interested in your thoughts @doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041)
https://www.bitchute.com/video/b87VjAYDXS0g/ (https://www.bitchute.com/video/b87VjAYDXS0g/)
thanks JJ. i will read the article MC.
Quote from: Mossy Chariot on June 28, 2021, 03:55:57 PM
Just sharing some information from a vaccine expert. Interested in your thoughts @doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041)
https://www.bitchute.com/video/b87VjAYDXS0g/ (https://www.bitchute.com/video/b87VjAYDXS0g/)
I think he's dragging out the ideas that Sweden and the UK first tried to implement. Try and protect the more vulnerable and aim for natural herd immunity. How did that work out?
This guy points out some of the errors in the first video.
Why Vanden Bossche Is Wrong About COVID Vaccines (https://zdoggmd.com/vanden-bossche/)
Basically : More infectious mutations are already happening, before the vaccine, and stopping vaccinations now will probably encourage that to continue, because the virus is still replicating in the community. More cases = more chance of a mutation. Having 1/2 the population vaccinated will probably result in a mutation that can beat the vaccine spreading. If enough people get the vaccine around the world, the virus wont be replicating, so there won't be any new mutations.
Until there are.
Quote from: Southside on June 28, 2021, 06:39:40 PM
Until there are.
There already are, BECAUSE the virus is still actively replicating. The most worrying currently is the Indian one, which seems more infectious, but hopefully not more dangerous. The variants aren't coming from countries that have suppressed the virus (Australia / Vietnam / NZ etc). They are coming out of the countries that have had the most cases. India / Britain / Brazil etc.
If this guy was correct then variants that could evade control measures like hand sanitiser / masks / social distancing would crop up in say Australia. They haven't, because there isn't enough replication of the virus going on.
So my argument is that if we followed this guys advice, not only would there be more cases (and deaths), but it's MORE likely that new strains would develop, that might even re-infect survivors of the original virus. If the virus can mutate enough to beat the vaccine, then it can certainly mutate enough to defeat naturally acquired immunity too. Pretty soon we have Covid-21.
I listened to the entire presentation from Vanden Bossche and find a few holes in his theories. First one is that the antibodies created by the vaccines are "bullies" as he describes them and they push away all of a persons natural defenses and thus you will be defenseless against mutations that may come in the future. We already know that T Cell and killer cell immunities can last for 17 years or more so it's pretty far out thinking that antibiodies from vaccines can block your natural defenses plus considering that it took man made manipulation to create this virus in the first place and now we are to believe that natural mutation of this virus can create a super virus that evades all our immunities. It certainly has a chance of happening but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the chance.
Second hole in his ideas is what I have been told by my science guy is there is an absolute natural rule about viruses in that they will always mutate to survive but as they mutate they may become more infectious but less virulent. In other words the virus may spread faster but the effects will be less serious, not more.
And finally the link that Ianab provided pretty much discredits Vanden Bossche's ideas also. So I'm not going to lose any more sleep over the guy's ideas.
I'm not with the Bossche guy- I think he's behind the facts as they are now.
It's not just political- NYT's headline today talks about the W.H.O. is arguing with the CDC over masking-saying they should be worn indoors by vaccinated persons. As we've seen before it's become a pick your favorite scientist affair? :D
My knee doc's clinic building/hospital is owned by U of KY and still require masking to enter or be seen there. Main campus is the same thing.
the process of natural selection will promote that one in a million mutation that confer and advantage. it may only be better attachment and replication, but no guarantee that it will not also be more virulent. advantages in reproduction make that variety more prevalent and fit with you assertion. I watched the first third of the presentation and felt he was not saying much of consequence.
I watched enough of the Bossche guy to hear his claim of work on the Ebola vaccine when I remembered I had used up the last of my aluminum foil Memorial Day, and with 4th of July knew I'd better grab a few rolls, maybe some baby back ribs, possibly a beef brisket. What's everybody cooking this weekend?
All I can say is Passing out your medical records and sending people door to door to try to get people to vaccinate is going to be a big problem and I bet will probably result in more deaths. Another big waste of taxpayer money. Now Pfizer says you will need the booster they are developing and the CDC says you won't the next day. Sounds like Pfizer is looking to keep the profits up now that the original vaccine demand is dropping.
I suspect we will need booster shots before this is over with, if it ever is over with. 90+% of covid deaths now are in the unvaccinated, there are hotspots in areas with low vaccination. Those groups will keep cooking this thing into new and stronger strains.
Respectfully Don, unless this thing has been engineered to do otherwise it will become weaker as new strains emerge.
Mutation is random, if it always got weaker we would be zucchini by now :D. Natural selection favors the strong or better adapted random mutations. After millions of years we still have the common cold and flu that kills, I'm not following your logic.
It is not good natural selection strategy to kill your host.
Much better just infect the host but leave enough energy the host walks around shedding more virus, more progeny that way.
the EAB will die eventually for this reason.
JJ
Ah, I see, I'm giving it evil intent rather than simple survival :D.
One of the side effects of not getting the vaccine is you might not keep your job.
Mercy Hospital which operates in NW Arkansas and parts of Missouri said last week if their employees are not vaccinated by September 1 they will not have a job.
If you think about it we would have done well to keep up with the evolution of zucchini. In 90 days a 1/10 of an ounce seed is able to conquer 1/4 of an acre of land while growing out of a crack in a rock and only receiving 4 oz of water. At the same time the plant leaves behind 50 lbs worth of offspring which by the second generation are able to take over a small state and force people to lock their vehicle doors around fair time for fear of being filled up with said zucchini.
In human terms that would be the same as a 6 year old single handily conquering the old Soviet Union during summer recess... ;D
Quote from: Larry on July 10, 2021, 09:37:33 PM
One of the side effects of not getting the vaccine is you might not keep your job.
Mercy Hospital which operates in NW Arkansas and parts of Missouri said last week if their employees are not vaccinated by September 1 they will not have a job.
In a hospital situation I can see the case for that. They are dealing with people that are already sick, and most vulnerable to Covid. The vaccine isn't 100% effective, and some people (especially sick ones) can't have it.
If someone went in to hospital for an ingrown toenail, and caught Covid there from a staff member, and died, who get's the blame?
If everyone working there is vaccinated, then it's both less likely to happen, and the hospital lawyers can claim "We did everything practical to prevent this happening".
As for the virus losing effect over time, that can happen, if a mutation is both easier to spread, and less dangerous, then the less harmful variant would eventually take over. Or it may be that everyone that's vulnerable to the virus has eventually caught it and either died, or survived and now has some immunity to it. Either way it's less of a problem, and becomes like the seasonal flu. Did the flu virus lose strength, or did the population develop more resistance? Maybe both? This would happen over time with Covid, but it could take years, and a lot more dead people to get there.
The most "successful" diseases are arguably the ones that hardly kill anyone. Common Cold / Chicken Pox etc. They are super common, and mostly just a nuisance. If they were Smallpox or Polio level dangerous there would be more effort put into controlling them.
I seriously doubt that a virus, even THE corona virus makes choices per above? :D
I will say that my local farmers market it seems the Zucchini is indeed taking over as are cukes-lots of both, a few maters and beans and no sweet corn as yet.
I have little doubt that eventually the US military will mandate corona vaccines once it gets full FDA approval. The more immediate question is what happens to make that happen?
My wife's been working with one sister to clear out an old family home. Yesterday we were looking through old WWII letters from her uncles to momma in KY. Also looked at their discharge DD214's and saw vaccinations for Typhoid, Tetanus and other stuff I forget.
Have you seen the TV mention of the Swedish man who nearly died from a smallpox vaccination as a child in Sweden then later after immigrating to the US he was being mandated to get it again. It went to the US Supreme Court and the famous judge-Oliver Wendell Holmes issued an ultimatum that he should be forced to get it again.
I am a vaccinator but truth is our US government has a dismal record on such matters.
As far as them knowing if I've been vaccinated-they already do know, get over it huh? ;D
My wife and I have both had chickenpox as kids. We got the first shingles vaccine some years ago at a local Rx. Last week we got the newer, improved Shingrix vaccine which requires a booster later. Cost $35 each for this shot. I have no idea why the local clinics nor health dept.'s don't do Shingrix since its such a nasty thing for seniors who get shingles? Maybe doesn't kill you, just makes you wish you were dead? Meanwhile Medicare pays much of the vaccines cost. I guess it's like our eyes, ears, teeth thing where most insurance leaves it be? The entire medical "thing" is a cluster of sorts.
not to be too political, but the government never does a good job, of taking care of individuals. once they get it in their mind (used loosely and figuratively) that something is for them to do, it is hard to get it out and they are not looking at the individual, but the majority (or minority) of the country. the diseases that have been for the most part irradiated typically had mandated vaccine. small pox and polio. many of the bad reactions in medicine end up not being from the active ingredient. such as red dye # X in a pill, or a preservative, or the horse serum protein in the original penicillin that caused grandmas to pass down from generation to generation, "if you ever had a rash on PCN, if you take it again, you will probably die". In the 80s we saw HIV, and did not understand it well for at least 10 years. we did some crazy stuff back then. The biggest reason for the mitigation was to slow it down so that Hospital did not lock their doors, and society was on their own. Can you imagine trying to break into a hospital, and being arrested, or seeing a Doc with a side arm or taser. If you have done disaster training, that is what we are trying to avoid, and did! We barely saw influenzae or RSV this year, so the mitigation helps. the non vaccers brag that they did not get the vaccine and did not get the disease, but that is part luck, and the fact the majority did get the vaccine. back when we were less sophisticated, and used live attenuated virus, the non vx kids got vaccinated from the kids who shed the virus at school. If studies show that a treatment or vaccine reduces mortality from 50% to 0.0001% the government and docs (public health) will be for it. although the one who suffers from the treatment, may have not been one of the ones to die from the disease. My buddy the pediatrician fired all of his families that would not get vaccinated. Is he a mean pediatrician? no, he did not want the kids with cancer on chemo, sitting in a room with a kid with a rash, that turned out to be chicken pox. the cancer kid will die. just like the military, we need leaders to look at the big picture, and avoid (if possible) the political lens.
@kantuckid (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=7283) yes we refer to those choices made as Mother Nature. :)
I'm seeing Springfield, MO in the news as they are swamped at hospitals with covid of recent. I live in a far more rural region than that SW corner of MO but many of my people are from Joplin area nearby-back when.
I looked at the NYT's state/county vaccinations list which is daily updated and Greene County, MO has a better vaccination rate than my own KY county-other than seniors over 65 which is sort of similar in both spots. I guess it's about Delta there but not near me.
it is about vaccination + folks that had the disease. so if they (the area) got off easy the first go round. if the delta is more contagious then eventually everyone gets vaccinated or the disease. I am still hearing virtually no serious hospitalizations in vaccinated people. I think areas hit hard (friends and neighbor's dying, or spending a month in the hospital) are more motivated to get the vaccine. out area is more back to normal, but we still wear masks in the hospital. I now have a contact derm. on my face from something in the masks. good thing I wear a mask to cover it up. :)
Quote from: Don P on July 10, 2021, 08:42:13 PM
I suspect we will need booster shots before this is over with, if it ever is over with. 90+% of covid deaths now are in the unvaccinated, there are hotspots in areas with low vaccination. Those groups will keep cooking this thing into new and stronger strains.
I keep hearing this about new strains. It seems to me that the new strains have come out of the countries that were 1st to run trials on the Vaccines. Did the vaccines cause the new variants? Is that why they are not getting weaker? It is not running it's natural course.
It's just doing what respiratory Corona viruses do....years ago we had a custom respiratory Corona viruse vaccine made up for a small cattle feedlot. To keep the vaccine working every couple years you had to re isolated the viruses and make a different vaccine. Just was part of the game. The bug kept changing over time..
The Delta variant came from India. Large mostly unvaccinated population.
variants come from replication and vaccines shut down the viral reproduction sooner so less reproduction and less mutation. ramped spread with reproduction until if and when the immune system kicks in. later in the elderly. if everyone got it in the same week, less mutation but massive death and morbidity and no ability to care for the ill.
My state, Arkansas is in the lead for the most covid cases per 100K residents. >:( Funny thing my state is also dead last in the amount of vaccinations. Could their be a correlation? :o
Get the shot!!!!
So, does that account for the change in the PCR testing protocol that has been instituted? There are now two protocols on how many times the sample will be replicated, one for those who are vaccinated, and one for those who are not, with the un-vaccinated sample being replicated more times to find the positive result. Why would that be? Not trying to argue with you, but pointing out a fact and asking a legitimate question.
Quote from: Stephen1 on July 13, 2021, 08:32:11 AMI keep hearing this about new strains. It seems to me that the new strains have come out of the countries that were 1st to run trials on the Vaccines. Did the vaccines cause the new variants? Is that why they are not getting weaker? It is not running it's natural course.
The variants have come from the countries with the most cases. UK and the US also happened to start vaccinations first. Brazil, not so much. But the mutations found there haven't changed much about how the virus / disease works. Changes are only picked up by genetic sequencing. The new and more concerning variant (Delta) has emerged from India, which has had a very poor vaccine roll out so far.
The virus won't deliberately mutate to bypass a vaccine. But it's randomly mutating when it replicates. Some mutations are going to "cripple" it, and that strain goes no further. But every 10 million cases you might get a mutation that improves the virus. So, more cases = more mutations, and I think the appearance of new variants has more correlation with number of cases, rather than vaccine rates.
Best way to avoid more variants therefore is to have less cases. Best way to do that is get as many as possible vaccinated.
They're pushing some hard to get people vaxxed here, even are trying to get VACCINE PASSPORTS just to move inter provincially, vaccine passports for concerts venues etc, good luck implementing all that. Watch revenues and tourism fall
Because of hoops to jump aka infringement on charter of rights.
Quote from: Larry on July 13, 2021, 11:17:18 PM
My state, Arkansas is in the lead for the most covid cases per 100K residents. >:( Funny thing my state is also dead last in the amount of vaccinations. Could their be a correlation? :o
Get the shot!!!!
Larry, not trying to argue at all but in checking the NYT's newspapers daily charts AR has actually got 7 states with worse vac rates. I suppose it's a moving factor to some extent? On the TV news last nite here in KY they said that about 2,000 people per day are getting vaced here still yet.
The Ozarks of MO & AR are indeed hot spots as are parts of TX and NV. Anywhere you go the un-vaced are those showing up with covid.
The legal showdown with universities saying all must be vaced is interesting. U of IN seems to be the first test on that. These bastions of wisdom may need to read this thread? :D
The Canadian tourism economy must be hurting from no summer border crossings. Plus many of those fish camps are USA owner operators too. In the USA some of the more popular national parks are quite crowded.
Canada USA border set to open Aug09/2021 to fully vaccinated citizens with proof of vaccination certificates as well as negative covid test within 72hrs of arrival.
This weekend my Uncle from Nova Scotia visited my dad, without trouble crossed the border both ways in Calais ME / St. Stevens N.B. without trouble, but has been vaccinated.
JJ
I have been seeing something pop up recently. It's mixing/matching vaccines. In Canada and other Countries (including the UK, Greece etc), this is approved and deemed full vaccination. Other countries do not approve, yet, but as various Dr's have pointed out, many vaccine sources have been mixed for other disease such as Ebola. Not being considered fully vaccinated is a concern for some folks travelling on cruise lines, if your port is in the US the cruise ship will turn you down in most instances. But there is a vague message from CDC where one can imply no mixing, without them actually saying it. Then J. Hopkins actually saying it plainly.
When You?ve Been Fully Vaccinated | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html)
COVID-19 Vaccine: What You Need to Know | Johns Hopkins Medicine (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know)
"The Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna mRNA COVID-19 vaccines are not interchangeable with each other or with other COVID-19 vaccine products. Each vaccine is manufactured differently — even those that use similar underlying technology, such as Pfizer and Moderna."
I don't see that anywhere on CDC.
And now read this on CDC about travel. :D
United States - Traveler view | Travelers' Health | CDC (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/traveler/none/united-states)
quote "There are no vaccination requirements for visitors to the United States, and US residents traveling abroad do not need any vaccines to reenter the United States."
I have both my doses from Pfizer, but mother's is a mix. I believe in the end, once studies shake out some answers we won't have to deal with different policies on vaccination. Oh and we don't actually get a card here in New Brunswick (at this time), I was told to scan and reduce a copy of the original 8" x 11" sheet to have when travelling.
Yet we got our provincial doctor on the radio pushing the notion mixing vaccines is okay. They certainly have been controversial during all this, no wonder some people are skeptical, basically running trials on our people lol . I won't be that guinea
It's all a trial, really. But one country is no more knowledgeable of outcomes based on early decisions then the rest. A policy of any kind without proven trials is not a fact. :D For now, my government says a mix is full vaccination. And I guess a host country you travel to decides on their definition. It's interesting. ;D
Quote from: SwampDonkey on July 25, 2021, 09:33:00 AM
It's all a trial, really. But one country is no more knowledgeable of outcomes based on early decisions then the rest. A policy of any kind without proven trials is not a fact. :D For now, my government says a mix is full vaccination. And I guess a host country you travel to decides on their definition. It's interesting. ;D
Basically some people just followed advice of their own health professionals and because of it now they can't see certain country's or possibly some events like concerts or events. Interesting indeed.
Premier Higgs here opened everything up here last night after midnight, no mandatory masking unless in a health care facility, nursing home, or posted by the business you want to enter. No border restrictions between provinces. Any crossing of international borders is federally regulated plus what ever host country has for requirements. But within New Brunswick she's pretty much open.
About 82% have had a shot, with 66% fully vaccinated. He had said earlier during all this that the target was 75% fully vaccinated.
Going 'Green' in New Brunswick (https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/news/news_release.2021.07.0566.html)
the 7 day old I admitted last night for fever was confirmed + along with one parent. I do not blame a pregnant mom for hesitating. lots of unknown's. all are doing well so far. we are restarting weekly covid task force meetings. I will attend Monday 7 am before leaving for the pigroast hopefully same day..
Quote from: SwampDonkey on July 31, 2021, 12:10:33 PM
Premier Higgs here opened everything up here last night after midnight, no mandatory masking unless in a health care facility, nursing home, or posted by the business you want to enter. No border restrictions between provinces. Any crossing of international borders is federally regulated plus what ever host country has for requirements. But within New Brunswick she's pretty much open.
About 82% have had a shot, with 66% fully vaccinated. He had said earlier during all this that the target was 75% fully vaccinated.
Going 'Green' in New Brunswick (https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/news/news_release.2021.07.0566.html)
I wish NS would do the same. Higgs and rankin haven’t seem to be getting along super well lol I would say things mostly feel fully open though, minus the mask
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02110-8 (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02110-8)
Just information. Headline in the Richmond paper today.
Central Virginia seeing increase in COVID outbreaks tied to childcare facilities, summer camps; 40% of cases in people eligible for vaccine, but not vaccinated.
What it doesn't say is the local vax rate is roughly 60% so . . .
and of course kids are not eligible.
One of our sons who lives in Birmingham, AL told me yesterday that there they were seeing a greatly increased number of young kids becoming covid hospitalized. The discussion was at his twin brothers house in Knoxville, TN where their grades school kids were starting school today. My TN DIL is a 1st grade teacher- her three kids don't mask at school nor is it mandatory in TN schools. All of us except the kids are vaccinated.
Seems that the vulnerability landscape's changing for children?
It looks like it is. we will follow for a bit to see the data. It looks like everyone will get the infection or the vaccine.
China has been real quiet, haven't heard anything about wuhan or the origins of this virus since April 2020. Wonder when we get answers, cause... they kind of screwed the whole world up. They sure didn't like trump calling it the China virus, they don't want no blame, that's where it come from anyway. Are they gonna keep allowing people to eat rotten bats or is that off the table now??
Nottoway County schools start next week, mandatory masking and no local virtual classes.
I have been seeing some reports the current surge in pediatric hospitalizations may be confused with RSV cases which also has respiratory symptoms.
we do a 22 point swab for kids that includes RSV, the influenzas, covid, and the other coronaviruses and more. Our hospital is full (relative to staff) so we just signed for a heli crew taking a sick person to KC. closest hospital with a bed.
most of the patients in the hospital are not covid, but people a coming in sicker these days. not enough nurses after covid burned everyone out. some younger covid cases getting sick.
It's comforting to know how pediatric patients are screened but in the same breath I'm screaming not the children!
I want to thank you again from all of us for taking the time to keep us informed and being a trusted source of news at ground zero.
You've been that spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down.
Quote from: Gary_C on August 12, 2021, 12:21:28 AM
I have been seeing some reports the current surge in pediatric hospitalizations may be confused with RSV cases which also has respiratory symptoms.
We have been seeing an "outbreak" of RSV here in NZ as well, and although the symptoms might appear similar, once the swab tests are done the Dr then knows what they are dealing with. I suspect there ins't really an "outbreak", just more cases being detected. I think part of the issue is that hospitals only have x% spare capacity, and "x" is quite a small number, in Dr H's current situation, it's 0. They don't need 5 more RSV AND 10 more Covid patients showing up tomorrow.
Thing is RSV is more like the Common Cold, and it would probably be mistaken for it 95% of the time. Ministry of Health web page suggests most kids here will have had it before they are 2 years old, but resistance to the virus wears off and they can catch it multiple times over the years. But unless there are complications, it's one of those things that the Family Dr will say "It's a virus, take some paracetamol and keep up the fluids". It can be dangerous to premature or very young babies, and some do end up in hospital. I'm sure from the symptoms our kids will have had it, taken a couple of days off school, and quickly recovered.
With the Corona virus still spreading though, kids are being tested in case it's Covid, and the tests are confirming the "Mystery Virus" is RSV.
Quote from: doc henderson on August 09, 2021, 07:37:55 AM
It looks like it is. we will follow for a bit to see the data. It looks like everyone will get the infection or the vaccine.
Or both!
Just attended a family wedding at Mt. Hood, Oregon. Now the mother of the bride has Covid, my daughter, who officiated the service, has symptoms and has tested positive, and I have a "cold". I'll get tested and have quarantined. Have no idea how many others are showing signs and symptoms of Covid. All three of us were fully vaccinated. All symptoms are relatively mild. Cough, runny nose, sore throat, and headache. Never thought I would say that I just attended a super spreader event! Jenny and I have been so careful....and now this.
we are seeing RSV, and para influenza. croup in kids, and laryngitis in adults. just saw a few kids with throwing up and diarrhea, one is adenovirus.
Oh doctorb! I'm so sorry!
get some sleep @doctorb (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10176) , if you are not working. I am up all night (working), and a trauma meeting at 7 am.
Quote from: doctorb on August 12, 2021, 02:19:35 AMAll symptoms are relatively mild.
Here's hoping the vaccine at least worked well enough to keep things that way.
Hunkered down. Have a PCR drive through test tomorrow. May get an antigen (immediate) test today if I can find one. Went to 2 pharmacies yesterday and they were sold out.
I actually feel fine, except like I have a cold. In my working days, I would have gone to work with the degree of symptoms I currently have. Heck, many of us worked through colds all the time.
It is interesting that all 3 people mentioned in my post with post-wedding illness had the Pfizer vaccine. My wife had Moderna, as had my other daughter who also attended the ceremony. They have shown no signs of infection. The father of the bride also had Moderna and is symptom free. I read that Moderna has better coverage of the Delta variant, but I think that needs corroboration.
Was planning to head to our cabin in Canada for the first time since October 2019 next week. Kinda threw a monkey wrench in those plans.
Good luck Dr. B. Probably you'll come through with flying colors. Keep us informed.
Thanks, Shotgun! That's the plan!
Given the timing of this wedding and the onset of my symptoms, it's no surprise to me that my instant (antigen) Covid test was positive today. So it's 10 days of quarantine from the beginning of my illness. No need for a PCR test tomorrow. While not as accurate as the PCR test, the sequence of events and the positive antigen test confirm for me all I need to know.
Dr B, I hope that you have a complete and full recovery.
There was an article out yesterday about the long term effectiveness of the Pfizer versus Moderna vaccines. According to the study the Pfizer lost about half of its effectiveness after 6 months, versus only 25% or so for the Moderna.
The study was conducted by the Mayo Clinic and another party.
https://news.yahoo.com/data-suggests-pfizer-modernas-vaccines-090012364.html (https://news.yahoo.com/data-suggests-pfizer-modernas-vaccines-090012364.html)
I heard Moderna themselves say 6 months effectiveness for theirs, announced 2 weeks ago.
That was recently updated a week ago when they told Time that the vaccine was still 93% effective at 6 months.
Pfizer said 84% after 6 months.
I believe they are talking the old viral strain, not Delta.
And that linked report above states:
'There has been no data so far that has found either vaccine's protection against severe disease and death is significantly less against Delta, and the study notes that there doesn't appear to be much of a difference in complications stemming from breakthrough infections based on which vaccine someone got.'
I'm pretty much sure, there is going to be a booster needed no matter which one was given. There's been talk of it for weeks.
When I got Pfizered in April they told us in the waiting area all 3 manufacturers were looking at a booster. At least they've got most of the kinks ironed out in the delivery infrastructure so it's not like they have to train a bunch of new people on new procedures. :)
My doc weighed in today. Because of my age (70), he is suggesting both the antiviral medication Remdezivir and the monoclonal antibodies. I'm not going to go against his recommendations, but I feel like I just have a cold. He says that, when Covid turns bad, it's about day 7-10. There is no data on the use of these meds in vaccinated people who get a breakthrough infections because breakthrough infections are so new.
Well @doctorb (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10176) I'm just a youngster compared to you, wont be 70 for another 4 months :D, but I tend to take my doctors advice, if I didn't trust her I'd change doctors. Best wishes from here.
My wife and I both had the monoclonal antibody infusion as we became symptomatic between Moderna vaccinations. 20 minutes or so of IV, 45 minutes of waiting around watching TV to see if we had a reaction. Pretty much a non event.
I wasn't feeling too bad with Covid, my wife was doing significantly worse, and I started feeling improved the next day, and both of us were feeling improvements by day two. When the hospital did a followup, they said most people reported decrease in symptoms by day two, which was also our timeframe.
if a study came out that said it was good for 3 years, you would have to ask yourself, how was a study done looking at a 3 year history when the vaccine has only been used for 1.5 years. early on, they were following the antibody titers produced, but most protection for viral stuff is from cellular immunity, not antibodies.
Been doing some snooping with my Infectious Disease friends. The Remdezivir may not be indicated, as it's usually reserved for hospitalized patients who are trending toward requiring a ventilator. The monoclonal antibodies (MAB) may be a good idea. Waiting to talk to the people in charge of making that decision at the Univ. Of MD.
I would move fast on the mono clonal antibody, as it will stop the replication attaching to the spike proteins. I have thought for a while that the viral medication should be started sooner, as we wait until people are very sick. that should change as this in no longer in short in supply. the only consideration in not using the mono clonal antibody, may be to develop a stronger protection in the future, but if you get very sick, it will be too late.
Aren't both those treatments the protocol given to Trump? I like knowing our doctorb is getting Presidential treatment.
It has been strange how we are told to use these, based on the fact they are still experimental and were in short supply. docs often use medications "off label" but you have to be careful if it is under an emergency use authorization. I do not remember for sure what all trump got. :)
From what we were told by the medical staff on the monoclonal antibodies, its best given before things get bad, be given early in the disease, and from the nurses at the hospital, the followup they did, and from our own experience, very effective. We didn't take any other treatment and what was odd was that when I notified my physician of my positive test, they prescribed antibiotics, steroids, etc. Kind of a shotgun thing. I wasn't impressed. I didn't take any of them. I figured I'd just work through it.
However, my wife was coughing, clearly getting worse, I wasn't too bad, and she telemed her doctor. We were both in the den when she made the call and her Dr. said they could get her in for monoclonal treatment because of a previous condition, and in real time they made her appointment at the hospital and said go on down. I'm sitting there , thinking "What the heck??" So I called my Dr. and asked for the same treatment based on one of my conditions. My wife went to the Hospital clinic where they give these, and while they were doing the infusion, she talked to the Dr. there and they told her to have me come in, because yes, I was qualified. So literally as I'm walking out the door with my truck keys in my hand, my Dr. office calls me back and says they can't get me in, I don't know why. What a swing and a miss. So I drive there, I fill out the forms, they check me out, I get accepted, they hit me up, and a couple days later I'm feeling improved. The nurse there said their feedback had been overwhelmingly positive, but they were seeing people waiting too long to come in for this particular treatment, as once they gets to the point where someone has to be admitted to the hospital, other more drastic treatments were required. She herself was 26 years old, had Covid, let it get too far, stopped breathing, was revived with an Epipen at the hospital emergency room, and said she almost died right there at the hospital. Quite an eye opener for me.
From what they told me, they had plenty of these monoclonal treatments, and the biggest issue was getting the word out. They had literally dozens of infusion stations set up, some occupied, some not. Very professional and organized. I was most impressed. During that time and for weeks later, the local news networks were broadcasting that they had plenty of doses.
These were given by the Huntsville Hospital, Fever and Flu Clinic. This is just my experience.
It is like the monitoring for termites, and killing them before they can get all over your house. shuts it down and cannot spread cell to cell. after it is all throughout your body, no longer helps to stop cell to cell transfer. The antiviral however should work early, and was withheld unless in the hospital. I hope we can start using more common sense soon.
We're Americans. We'll figure it out.
Especially if we can stop fighting about everything....
My sons are exactly four years apart and my pediatrician told me that was ideal spacing to prevent sibling rivalry. He was fresh out of med school at the time. Wasn't long before I had to disillusion him with the fact that all it accomplished was to make the fights uneven.
Those two boys were at it constantly. I even came home to find a perfect imprint of my ten year old in the living room drywall. However, let a neighbor kid touch one or the other, and the wrath of God was rained down upon the interloper. The school kids and several men that mommy tried to date, called them the Anderson mafia.
We're just like those children. We'll work it out.
Roxie same here except mine were girls and now that the older one is gone the younger one can't get over missing her big sister.
So, Yellowhammer, I'm thinking Martha is due an extra generous birthday present ?
" My wife went to the Hospital clinic where they give these, and while they were doing the infusion, she talked to the Dr. there and they told her to have me come in, because yes, I was qualified. "
You bet. She got the present she asked for. She said "No Jewelry!" and instead asked for this battery operated chop saw. So what she wants, she gets! We use it every day.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/FFA5203C-1038-44F6-BA04-C233A9B7BFC2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1628970858)
BTW, I dropped my Doctor and have started going to hers.
Just finished the monoclonal antibody infusion. No problems.
The science here is still in its infancy. Different cocktails of monoclonal antibodies have been studied versus the delta variant. Three of the four emergently approved "MAB's" demonstrate some effective actions versus delta, but all are reduced in their "potency" when comparing older forms of Covid to the newer delta strain.
Having been vaccinated, the overwhelming data shows that I was...1. Not gonna die from this Covid infection and 2. I have a very very small chance of being hospitalized from it when compared to the unvaccinated population. Did I need to get this treatment to improve on those outcomes? Probably not. The issue is that very small chance that around day 7-10 my immune system gets kicked into overdrive and inflammatory reactions start cascading through my body. I agree with doc h that they advise getting this early in the course of your disease so that you prevent your immune system from turning into your mortal enemy. We, at this point, have no way to identify which patients are at risk for that immune system over-response.
New info on the wedding Covid infections. We may have found Typhoid Mary!
Turns out, one of the guests, a mother in law to the bride's sister, came to the wedding along with her sister, both coughing and hacking. She is a nurse, but believes Covid is a hoax. Her son did not attend the wedding because he caught Covid (they live far apart). Her son's wife, the sister of the bride (she's negative so far) missed her sister's wedding to quarantine as well. But this Mother in Law and her sister, with all their symptoms, came anyway.
They were seated at the table with my daughters, who were horrified by their continual respiratory symptoms, lack of covering their coughs, and lack of masks. They avoided her as much as possible. Unfortunately, now eight people and counting have tested positive from the event.
The MIL, however, remains a stalwart conspiracy theorist. This week, she finally got tested and -surprise- was positive. She believes certain corners of the Internet more than any doctor or public health source, so she's taking Invermectin, which she bought online. This is an antiparasite drug used on livestock (worms, etc) that has been discussed as a potential treatment for Covid, but is unproven at this time. My understanding is that she had been forced into retirement for her refusal to get vaccinated by her employer. I don't know if that was pre or post wedding.
So, I am sure that everyone will say that it's easy to place blame, and that I do not accurately know that she was positive at the ceremony. That's true. I do know, however, according to my many family contacts who were there, she and her sister were the only people demonstrating any overt respiratory symptoms. You can imagine the texts flying around our families about this!
It just angers me how irresponsible people can be. Myself and my oldest daughter are positive and quarantined. My wife and my other daughter are negative, but quarantined. The bride and groom (+) are quarantined from each other, as are the mother (+) and father of the bride. Two bridesmaids are positive and quarantined. Nobody is going to die, I understand that. But there comes a time when personal responsibility must have some weight in one's decisions. I'm glad she's retired from nursing. The last thing I would want is to look up from a hospital bed and see her responsible for my care.
As they live far away, I may never see her again. That would be too soon. This is the monster that blind, blanket mistrust coupled with exaggerated self-justification of "personal freedoms" can create. When are we going to act like our fellow man matters?
Finally, this thread has been pretty apolitical, and I like that. I am not trying to send the conversation in that direction. IMO, this scenario remains a good example of the philosophic and medical bind in which we now find ourselves. Stay healthy, everyone, and treat those you don't know as you would your friends and family.
That really chaps me, doctorb. I don't care if you think it's a hoax, sick is sick. They shouldn't have went if even if it turned out to be a common cold! I've missed plenty of gatherings over the years (and this is pre-covid) because I came down with something. It is just lacking common decency to go to a wedding, funeral, etc. when you are sick.
I think I posted about a couple that came into the store wearing masks when all this started. They too thought it was a hoax, as they told me. Than they both had it!! Mask for them.
I have read a little regarding the ivermectin usage and the dose I calculated to achieve what the author was claiming was above what I would consider safe to use in a person. Just an fyi.
Sorry Drb you can pick your nose, and your friends but alas not your relatives. The exercise of personal freedom also needs to be linked with common sense. They were wrong to go, and I hope they realize the error of their ways.
You're not dealing with enough mental horsepower to acknowledge that they are causing a problem.
Quote from: Nebraska on August 15, 2021, 12:51:10 PM
Sorry Drb you can pick your nose, and your friends but alas not your relatives. The exercise of personal freedom also needs to be linked with common sense. They were wrong to go, and I hope they realize the error of their ways.
In case you already don't know the difference between in laws and outlaws , outlaws are WANTED.
What is involved in determining whether the virus is regular covid 19 or Delta or Lamda? Is it a single swab and many tests for each of the variants? DrB which one did you catch? Was it further transmitted by those vaccinated or was it only Typhoid Mary that spread it to everybody?
I agree that nobody that is feeling ill should be going out in public these days but like others here have stated it was what most of us did at one time. The oldtimers would say "keep working, you'll sweat it out"
Paul-
My infection was never specifically ID'ed. That's because I knew that others already had been diagnosed, and the timing with the event was too perfect. My diagnosis confirmation came from a home antigen test. People with symptoms who test positive with such tests are over 99% sure to have the disease. I do not know the process whereas one variant is identified versus another. I will have to investigate that.
As the delta variant is by far the most widely reported infecting agent for Covid in the US right now, and it's easier to catch than previous subtypes, I have made the assumption that I am infected with the delta variant. I am not planning any further tests to verify that specifically. I will get a PCR test in a week or three as I need a negative PCR to get to Canada.
Quote from: Nebraska on August 15, 2021, 12:51:10 PM
I have read a little regarding the ivermectin usage and the dose I calculated to achieve what the author was claiming was above what I would consider safe to use in a person. Just an fyi.
Sorry Drb you can pick your nose, and your friends but alas not your relatives. The exercise of personal freedom also needs to be linked with common sense. They were wrong to go, and I hope they realize the error of their ways.
I've used Ivermectin, the vet printed the dosage and told me to come back when the bottle was empty with a fresh stool sample from the pup. Same stuff?
I assume so. I've never heard of it used on people before, but maybe it is prescribed in countries where they have unsanitary water supplies and a high rate of intestinal parasites.
Just found out a cousin has been intubated and in ICU. I assume it's a breakthrough infection, she works in a 911 center would have been among the first eligible. Her hubby has tested negative, he's vaxxed, smart enough to do what his wife tells him after 30 years of marriage. She's being given heparin. Just when we thought it was safe to go into the water.
Quote from: Paul_H on August 15, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
What is involved in determining whether the virus is regular covid 19 or Delta or Lamda?
My daughter is an ICU nurse and moonlighted at the local Covid Testing and Vaccination lab, which was one of the first in Huntsville to identify a breakthrough Covid D infection of a previously infected Covid 19 patient.
The patient had already tested positive with Covid 19 a couple months previous by this lab, had gotten better, tested negative, and then had returned months later with a similar infection, tested again, and this came back positive. At that point, after a positive repeat infection, the sample was sent off for "genetic testing" at Birmingham, Al, where it was subsequently identified as Covid D.
Even though Huntsville has several comprehensive testing facilities, the strain identification could not be done locally at the time, the sample had to be sent away. That was several months ago, I don't know if they have a more rapid or local test at this time.
It turns out that was only the second Covid D breakthrough in Huntsville, and it was only coincidence that it was identified immediately because it was in a person who already had been tested and eventually cleared of Covid 19 by that very same testing facility, and they had his previous test on file.
Quote from: doctorb on August 15, 2021, 06:04:33 PM
I assume so. I've never heard of it used on people before, but maybe it is prescribed in countries where they have unsanitary water supplies and a high rate of intestinal parasites.
Ivermectin is used on humans for the same issues as you give it to dogs. As a parasite treatment. Works on scabies and headlice and other weird tropical infestations.
QuoteIvermectin is available as a generic prescription drug in the U.S. in a 3 mg tablet formulation. It is also sold under the brand names Heartgard, Sklice and Stromectol in the United States,
I'm guessing it's given a different name so patients don't realise their Doc has given them a script for cattle drench :D
Figuring out what variant the virus is needs genetic testing. It's pretty much routine now, but it takes longer than the screening tests. They do the genetic test on every positive case here to help with tracking infections. In an outbreak, if a case appears with a significantly different genetic sequence, then there is another cluster of cases to find and isolate.
our lab sent swabs to the state after they tested +. I am told now they are not doing that as they are all delta.
I've used lots of ivermectin in/on goats as a wormer/anti parasitic. I find it strange that people that don't trust the vaccines because they aren't totally approved would then use something that wasn't even intended for that purpose.
Sure beats dragging your butt across the lawn
Quote from: Paul_H on August 15, 2021, 09:18:57 PM
Sure beats dragging your butt across the lawn
Especially if you have sticker burs in the lawn.
The humor regarding relatives earlier in this thread reminded me of an interchange between myself and one of my patients in the preop area a few years ago. I saw her in her cubicle, and she was all checked in and ready to go. We went over the procedure again, and I asked if there was anyone with her at the hospital today. She said "nope." I then asked, "Any family members you wish me to contact after we're finished?" She looked up at me with a straight face and said, "Family....the other f-word." I laughed and took that as a "no". :D
Quote from: doctorb on August 15, 2021, 11:43:20 PM
She looked up at me with a straight face and said, "Family....the other f-word." I laughed and took that as a "no". :D
Patients say the darndest things. ;D ;D
I once had a geriatric patient in my ambulance on the way to the E/D for eval after a syncope episode and a fall. As I was running through the standard questions I asked here if she knew what day today is? She looked me square in the eye and said "Honey, I've been retired for 25 years, I don't give a [dang] what day it is!". "Ok", I said, 'can you tell me who the President is?' and she perked up a bit more and said "Oh sure, you mean that lying, cheating, weasel that wouldn't know an honest day's work if he tripped over it?'
I just put the abbreviation for 'alert and oriented x 3' on my PCR report and moved on. She was a funny gal.
Doc and Doc,
For a layman, I found the article below to be refreshingly understandable regarding why vaccinated folks are still contacting Covid, can spread it, yet be protected by the vaccine all at the same time.
From what I can discern, the author is legit.
Thoughts?
***************************************
I am in a unique position to report on what is going on with COVID-19, particularly the delta variant and why it's so dangerous, and how it interacts with the vaccines. I'm the Special Assistant to the National Director of Pathology and Lab Medicine for the entire Veterans Affairs system, with a specific role in advising on elements of COVID testing for the system.
RELATED: Florida's COVID battle in four charts (https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2021/08/10/florida-parents-back-to-school-anxieties-displayed-in-four-covid-charts-editorial/)
As such, I have a front row seat to all of the latest data since we use that information to make our national-policy decisions. So, here are a few important points that help explain why you should get vaccinated and wear a mask. I'll do my best to stitch this all together so it makes sense:
[img width= height=]https://www.tampabay.com/resizer/flFDhpJOHIJL1yC_EbPyyaIGd1Q=/620x0/filters:focal(112x104:122x94)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/tbt/RQ3WQ4DMAFBWPMJ3CZZTXNSPIQ.png[/img]
Dr. J. Stacey Klutts [ Provided ]
1. Like Gorilla Glue. The delta variant (lineage B.1.617.2) has a particular collection of mutations in the spike protein (that knob-like projection you see in renderings of the virus) that make it extremely effective in attaching to human cells and gaining entry. If the original COVID strains were covered in syrup, this variant is covered in ultrafast-drying Gorilla Super Glue (industrial strength).
2. 1,000 times higher. There are two recent publications which demonstrate that the viral loads in the back of the throats of infected patients are 1,000 times higher with the delta than with previous variants. I can tell you from data in my own labs, that is absolutely true. We are seeing viral signals we never saw last year using the exact same assays.
3. Much more infectious. This much higher load plus the ultra "stickiness" of the delta strains for adhering to human cells makes it remarkably more infectious than previous strains. You may have heard of R0 (Pronounced R naught) which is, in a nutshell, the number of people to which an infected person would be expected to transmit the virus. Early versions of the virus had a 2 to 2.5 R0 value. So one infected person would infect two or so people on average. Delta has an R0 of about eight! In the infectious disease world, that's almost unheard of. Chickenpox and measles are about all we have ever seen that spread that efficiently from human to human. This changes the story line completely from earlier in the pandemic and makes this surge, in many ways, like a completely different pandemic event.
4. Five days. There is another recent publication out of Singapore with data that confirms something we suspected. I will explain more about the "why" on this below when I talk about vaccines, but the gist is this: The viral loads in the throats of vaccinated persons who become infected with delta rises at identical rates as in unvaccinated persons, but only for the first few days. After five days or so, the viral loads in the vaccinated person start to quickly drop whereas those in the unvaccinated person persist. This key set of observations is important for several reasons relating to vaccinated persons serving as vectors for spread (see below).
5. Young people. This pandemic, Round 2, is primarily being observed in younger patients than in Round 1. Our children's hospitals are even already filling up or full. Because of the delta viral dynamics, it is much more capable of causing severe disease in a larger swath of the population. You spew enough of any human pathogen on someone without immunity, and it's not going to end well. This sets up very poorly for the beginning of the school year — which has already started in Florida — and it scares me. Check that. It is actually terrifying. I sure hope we have vaccines for the 5- to 11-year-olds soon.
6. Vaccines work! Speaking of vaccines. Are they working? Yes! They are absolutely doing their expected job. We know a lot about vaccines for upper respiratory viruses, as we have been giving the population one every year for decades (influenza). To explain all of this, I need to provide some biological context. When you get a vaccine as a "shot," the "antigen" in the vaccine leads to formation of an antibody response. You probably knew that. What's important, though, is that it primarily leads to a specific Immunoglobulin G (IgG) response. That's the antibody type that circulates around in really high numbers in the blood, is located some in tissues and is more easily detectable by blood tests, etc.
What that shot does not do is produce an Immunoglobulin A (IgA) antibody response to the virus at the surface of the throat mucosa. That's the antibody type that could prevent the virus from ever binding in the first place. As such, in a vaccinated person, the virus can still attach like it's about to break into the house, but it doesn't realize that there is an armed homeowner on the other side of the door. When that virus is detected, the IgG beats it up and clears it before the person gets very ill (or ill at all). (Sidebar: Anyone ever had their kid — or themselves — get the "Flumist" vaccine as their annual flu booster? The idea there is to introduce the antigens at the surface of the throat mucosa leading to that IgA response that will prevent infection from happening at all. Sounds good and still has a place, but it isn't quite as effective overall as the shot.)
7. Preventing disease and death. The COVID-19 vaccines are designed to prevent disease/death through that IgG response (though it does also reduce infections somewhat). How good are the vaccines at doing all of this with delta? The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has just released data addressing that very question. Punchline: They're remarkably good! The vaccine shows an 8-fold reduction in the development of any symptomatic disease secondary to delta. For hospitalization, it is a 25-fold reduction. That's 25 times! Remarkable. For death, it is also 25 times! This is a very effective pharmaceutical class when looking at overall efficacy toward the intended/expected purpose. When looking at the very tiny side effect profile, I'd personally consider it one of the best overall pharmaceuticals on the market in any class of drugs.
8. So, you're vaccinated? First of all, a sincere, heart-felt thank you! But you may now ask, so why do I again need to wear a mask? We talked about disease, hospitalizations and death above, but what about infections themselves? The vaccines are now estimated to provide a 3-times reduction in infection. For reasons that I tried to make clear above, it isn't surprising that the vaccine is less effective at preventing infection vs. preventing disease. We are indeed seeing detectable virus, at high levels, in asymptomatic, vaccinated persons when we test them prior to procedures, etc. We have a few that are mildly symptomatic, too.
While we now understand that the virus fades from the back of the throat pretty quickly in a vaccinated person, we also know that an infected, vaccinated person can transmit this very infectious virus to others for at least a couple of days. So, as before, you are being asked to wear a mask to primarily protect others.
We need you again to interrupt the transmission cycle of the virus, as you don't know when you might be infectious. The vaccine alone cannot interrupt this cycle when there is a lot of virus in the community within unprotected persons.
9. What's next? I live and practice in Iowa, and I see the tsunami wave on the horizon. It's typical for respiratory viruses to begin in the southern United States (where it is hot and everyone clusters indoors in the air conditioning to escape the heat) and then creep north to affect those areas when it gets colder (and people go inside because it's getting colder). If you live in the north and are not vaccinated, it is not too late, but it's getting *DanG close. It's also time to start wearing masks in public again (ugh...I hate it, too).
Those of you in the south, particularly in Florida, know that the tsunami is already on your shores. If you weren't already off the beach, you might be in trouble. However, if you are there and haven't yet been affected, run like hell to metaphorical higher ground — get vaccinated, wear a mask.
I beg of you, watch that wave and don't ignore it. I have zero political agenda (I hate politics). I'm just a nerdy scientist and physician who loves you all, and I certainly don't want to see a mass of my friends grieving — or dead — because I didn't yell loud enough to get you and your families off that beach. So, run! (to your pharmacy ... driving is allowed). You don't want any part of this thing without vaccine on board.
Dr. J. Stacey Klutts is a clinical associate professor of pathology and clinical microbiology at the University of Iowa and is the chief of the Pathology and Laboratory Service for the Central Iowa VA Health Care System. He is the past president of the Academy of Clinical Laboratory Physicians and Scientists (ACLPS) and chairs the National VA Clinical Microbiology Council in addition to his national roles referenced above. This is adapted from a Facebook post with permission of the author.
https://medicine.uiowa.edu/pathology/content/dr-j-stacey-klutts-elected-president-academy-clinical-laboratory-physicians-and-scientists
https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/J-Stacey-Klutts-2030552875
Quote from: scsmith42 on August 16, 2021, 07:59:35 PMFrom what I can discern, the author is legit. Thoughts?
Sounds about right.
What's really needed is MORE actual information like that to be put out. It explains in a bit more detail what we have been told about the Delta strain.
In other news, the Delta strain is now lose in NZ, one case so far. Having watched Australia struggle to control this, the Govt isn't taking any chances. Level 4 lock down for the whole country. 7 days for Auckland and Coromandel regions, and 3 days for the rest of us (so far). The worry is that the patient doesn't have any direct link to the border, so probably caught it from someone else (unknown), and that makes it likely there are other cases out there.
We have watched the Australian cases go up from zero to ~500 a day over the past 6 weeks, in spite of gradually increasing restrictions. So the decision is to go hard and try and eliminate it again. The vaccine program is underway here, but behind many other countries, so too many unprotected people out there still.
I think we were up to 169 days without a case in the community, but it's time to rest the counter....
Excellent summary article. Thx.
BTW, I'm feeling much better. Quarantine ends Thursday.
Got an e-mail from an old HS hunting and fishing buddy of mine down in Fla. We went down to his wedding (68 y/o, first wedding) a couple months ago and my wife took the pictures. He told me today his younger brother's daughter just died of Covid combined with pneumonia. He said he thought she had not been vaccinated and other than a mild heart murmur that nobody had seemed overly concerned about over the years, she had no other major factors contributing to her death. I don't know but based on the brothers age, a few years younger than us, I'd guess she was in mid 30's to 40 or thereabouts.
I truly don't see why people still don't trust the vaccine.
Well, we are up to a week of lock down so far.
The one case initially found is now up to 148, with 41 new cases reported today. One event, a large church service has resulted in 50 cases so far. This happened before the first case / lock down was announced, so they weren't "at fault", it just shows how contagious and fast spreading the virus is now. Rest of the week will tell if lock down is going to work again, or if we simply have to slow the spread while the vaccinations carry on.
Our neighbors parents have been voluntarily stuck on the south island since this began. They finally got their second jab recently. We forget from here that much of the rest of the world is still waiting on vaccine.
I heard Pfizer did get FDA approval. There really is no reason any more not to get the vaccine. We have hospitals overflowing with unvaccinated people. They are bumping people who legitimately need hospitalization. I'm kind of surprised insurance is covering those hospitalizations.
you are either going to getting the shot or the disease. most deaths are unvaccinated.
Are the unvacced deaths normally healthy folks or is there underlying? I haven't been able to find a proper breakdown
just like before, the risk goes up with age and comorbidities, like obesity, diabetes, htn, copd, and heart disease. the vaccinated do not get as sick, despite the risk factors. no guarantees.
I know a customer that's recovering,around 50 years old flat out in bed a couple of days on the weekend and wants a excavator for tomorrow. Unvaxed.
I'll keep looking and post if I find a breakdown
Quote from: doc henderson on August 24, 2021, 07:36:21 AM
you are either going to getting the shot or the disease. most deaths are unvaccinated.
Possibly both... ::)
But catching the virus after being vaccinated is much less dangerous.
The current lock down here is really only to stop the virus while most people get their vaccine. At some point we have to open up again, and with the more infectious variants it doesn't look like the virus is going to go away any time soon.
Thought of the day, the vaccine has FDA approval, the virus doesn't.....
The FDA approving anything really means nothing. This is the same people that approve cigarettes, leading cause of cancer which is the second leading cause of death in the USA, that alone right there is enough reason for me to feel they aren't credible. I'm not saying I'm anti vaccine, I just wanted to point that out about the FDA. although I wonder how it would
Of went had they disapproved the vaccine with already millions that received it.
Ha Ha Ha FDA "Approval" - read the fine print, it's only "approved" as long as the emergency is in effect. Normal time to approve a real vaccine 8 years, this jab - 8 months. On top of that for approval a "course regiment" has to be known - there is none, time for the booster, and looks like 6 months there will be another, but nobody really knows. Think about it - there isn't a baby alive that was born to a "fully vaccinated" mother - so how do we actually know the effects? Oh - and there is that whole issue of how the control group was dissolved - sort of a necessity for actual approval, but who is playing by the rules these days? The fat lady ain't singing - but the bumbling fool sure is humming.
Word came out today that the Delta has peaked here in the US, guess it's time for another Greek letter fear bomb to show up. Oddly enough Israel shows the exact opposite data when it comes to the hospitalization / vaccination ratio that the US does.
I am rooting for the Aussie "Truckies" - the time has come to put an end to this show. If you want your jab you can go and get your jab, otherwise leave it alone.
Quote from: Southside on August 24, 2021, 08:39:57 PM
On top of that for approval a "course regiment" has to be known - there is none, Oh - and there is that whole issue of how the control group was dissolved - sort of a necessity for actual approval,
Can this be true? I remember in Elementary school we had science fairs in grade 6 and 7 and Mrs Rhodes said we needed a control and an experimental in our tests. Of course that was way back in 1973 and science has evolved somewhat. But surely they have the data from the testing done on lab rats?
Understanding Simple vs Controlled Experiments (thoughtco.com) (https://www.thoughtco.com/simple-experiment-versus-controlled-609099#:~:text=The%20simple%20controlled%20experiment%20has%20just%20the%20two,you%20don%27t%20mist%20with%20water%20%28your%20control%20group%29.)
Well, I hope this isn't the start of another round of covid in the firehouse. We are hosting some paramedics while their new station is being completed. One of them got covid several days ago. Now, one of the other battalion chiefs is home with covid, along with his wife. He was at the station with the medic. I have to work OT on Friday because of it. So much for getting some logs sawed this week. I have tomorrow to finish up a woodworking project.
We have a great biker rally in September. Bikes, Blues, and BBQ. Attracts some 250,000 from outside the area plus the locals. Never causes much trouble and brings lots of $$$'s to the area. Fun time for all. I even enjoy it!
The local hospitals are asking for the rally to be cancelled. They are filled to capacity with covid patients, mostly not vaccinated. From past experience the rally does generate some trauma accidents so they brought in extra help and were prepared. This year no icu beds, and no extra help. I can understand their position.
It's open for discussion now, so I'll watch to see how it plays out.
We have an 11 year old Great Granddaughter with Covid. School has started so I guess that she got it there. I have no idea what preventative precautions were being taken, but whatever they were, they obviously were not enough.
Masks in school are not required here. My granddaughter is the only one in her class wearing one. Being odd one out has to be hard for her but better than getting sick.
with delta being more contagious, I think everyone will get a vaccine, or the disease, or as stated, both.
All the more reason to get the vaccine. If I'm gonna get the disease, I want to be one of the ones who has no symptoms or at least mild symptoms. The medic at the firehouse was vaccinated many months ago. She said she felt bad for a few days, but now is doing much better. The other FF who got it, presumably from exposure to the medic, was unvaccinated and said he's had a high fever for several days. I was exposed to him on Sunday morning. I"m not sure if he was contagious at that point. I still feel fine.
So I'm not hearing a peep about natural immunity from having covid previously. Seems nobody wants to mention it. I had it back around last Thanksgiving and although it sucked I'm no worse for wear and came through it ok. What's the word?
Brent
yes, even our infectious disease guy, says that there is no "evidence" that natural immunity is better than that provided by an immunization. that means that studies have not been devised or done. usually natural immunity triggers many different antibodies. In science/medical terms, this is still a brand new entity. the studies have been done revolving around the emergent development if immunizations. so that is what we have. studies looking at natural immunity are almost antidotal and retrospective. I think to have both is prob. best (shot plus the disease). I would put natural disease second, and just the shot third. but the studies have not been set up that way.
Quote from: DbltreeBelgians on August 26, 2021, 03:55:37 PM
So I'm not hearing a peep about natural immunity from having covid previously. Seems nobody wants to mention it. I had it back around last Thanksgiving and although it sucked I'm no worse for wear and came through it ok. What's the word?
Brent
I don't think anyone actually KNOWS for sure. It stands to reason you should have some useful level of immunity after having beaten the virus once. How good is that? How long might it last? If you catch it again will it be a milder case?
People HAVE caught the virus twice, and I've read of one case where the lady died from the 2nd infection. I hope that was just really back luck on her part and isn't common. That's one case so you can't draw any real conclusion from it, except that it's possible for a 2nd infection to be serious. Might be a 1 in a million bad luck, as I have only seen one mention off it. If large numbers were getting admitted to hospital for a 2nd infection, that would start to stand out in someone's statistics. So far it hasn't, and that one case stood out as unusual.
I don't do much reading on the subject, Brent, but my wife is always reading. She only reads stuff that's real science. Just as the efficacy of the vaccine is less with the new variant, its also more possible to get covid again, if your first time was the original strain.
the first go round can weaken the heart, brain, kidneys, so an elderly person is at higher risk, no matter what. also the reporting has been skewed. some people are dying from unrelated everyday things, and happened to have covid, and are reported in a way that can be interpreted as a death with/from covid. most vaccines are stronger and last longer in terms of immunity, with repeated doses. it would make sense that the one that confers the broadest immunity might work better (the disease) and repeated doses. most viruses are killed by cellular immunity, and the antibody helps and can be a marker that you had it. but just cause the levels drop, may not mean you are no longer or less immune.
I know of 25 or more people who have had Covid in the last 10 days. We lost a cousin last Saturday. About 40% of my students are quarantined or at home with Covid. We have a four person Ag department. Two of the four have had it in the past month. My cousin, who has been a Covid nurse since this thing started, has been in a local hospital for the past two weeks after coming home for her step dad's funeral. She is hooked up to machines but not intubated.
Last year we wore masks, had one way hallways, staggered dismissal and half of the kids were at home looking at a computer to get their education. This year, no masks, no social distancing, it is back to school as normal; pre-pandemic and folks are getting sick. My school had 10 confirmed cases yesterday and more today. After reading SCScott's post a couple of days ago it looks like every positive case is infecting eight others. We will eventually all get it or at least be exposed. I got the jab, mainly because I cannot socially distance from those I care for. I have four really close friends, two of them are dealing with Covid symptoms.
Several folks I know who have been touting this as a farce have now been infected and are clinging to life or are just overcoming the worst sickness they have ever experienced.
The local TV had a report on the "super spreader" biker event in Sturgis, SD. The report showed over 90% of the over half a million attendees were vaccinated and only 46 cases reported so far.
we tend to ask patients now that come in short of air and hypoxic, that turn out to be covid +, if they are vaccinated. they will not look us in the eye, when they say no. I think i will have to cancel the family reunion this year, that we normally have every labor day. not due to covid itself, but because we are so busy, that I will not be able to be off to prepare and be home. also some of my elderly relatives, are not vaccinated.
I was in the hospital 5 days with covid. I had some very interesting discussions with the doctors and nurses about covid. Their opinions about covid are very different from what we are getting from the news media and government.
Firstly masks are for the sick and those dealing with the sick. The masks must be N95 and properly fitted to do any good. Proper handling of the mask is the biggest problem. Wearing a mask and taking it off and putting it in your pocket or hanging it from your rear view mirror in you car does nothing to prevent you from getting covid.
The vaccine won't keep you from getting covid. It may keep you from getting it as bad as you would without it. It should be a personal choice as the whether or not you get it. There has been deaths from covid of vaccinated people.
Every person/patient is different. The covid virus affects people in different levels of seriousness. Some have no symptoms while others die from it. The persons health problems may or may not have any effect on how they recover or don't recover from covid. Healthy people with no health problems have died from covid while people who have many serious health problem have recovered.
The most important opinion from the doctors and nurses is to not live your life fearing covid to the point where you don't do the normal day to day things that make us happy.
My getting covid has built up my immunity better than any vaccine would. No guarantee that I won't get it, but if I do it won't be as bad.
Quote from: DbltreeBelgians on August 26, 2021, 03:55:37 PM
So I'm not hearing a peep about natural immunity from having covid previously. Seems nobody wants to mention it. I had it back around last Thanksgiving and although it sucked I'm no worse for wear and came through it ok. What's the word?
Brent
I just read an article about study that does show natural immunity is better, but HUGE caveat regarding the risk to acquire said immunity over vaccination route.
Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine?but no infection parties, please | Science | AAAS (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-no-infection-parties)
Well worth the read, I just hope it stays in context. Vaccination/boosters still appears to be a much safer avenue to protect your health.
full study report for those that like more detail: Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections | medRxiv (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full-text)
And like the vaccine, natural immunity wears off too. Many examples of that. Take Lamar Jackson, Raven's quarterback. Had Covid last November. Banked on natural immunity and, therefore, did not take the vaccine. Got Covid again in July. Wiped him out "pretty good".
Immunity to many viruses is fleeting and can decrease substantially over time. While comparison of the protections afforded by natural immunity to that provided by the vaccine are reasonable and need to be further studied, one thing is for sure. Just because you've had Covid once doesn't preclude you from having it again. And, yes, the second time around is not always an easier trip....
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/08/25/colorado-fitness-coach-coronavirus-vaccine-affil-pkg-vpx.kusa (https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/08/25/colorado-fitness-coach-coronavirus-vaccine-affil-pkg-vpx.kusa)
I find the discussions about acquired natural immunity versus vaccine can tend to be polarized, although certainly less so than other Covid subtopics. The reality is that it's a myth to think that once you've had the disease, and survived it, you are invincible and fully immune. That's not the way it works.
Do you guys remember last Spring (2020) when a percentage of pundits felt we should just "rip the bandaid off (open everything back up) and let this thing run it's course"? We now know that would not have worked and we'd be worse off. Where are those pundits now?
Just to keep things in context. the mitigation of distance, mask, and vaccine, is to keep it so an area or community can handle the cases. the problem now is nurse shortage. so our hospital that can have 200 people in, is limited to less than 100 patients. we go on diversion since the working nurses on the schedule are maxed out on patients. we had ortho night with 3 complex fractures. the ortho doc wanted them transferred. we used "mission control" as all the less than an hour tertiary care centers were on diversion. they found us beds in Wisconsin. Our community has about 45K people. If a spreader event got 100 people sick, we would be overwhelmed, and may not have anywhere to send overflow. If we all got it at the same time, then it might die down, after we all pass the infectious period. Of course, I would not be at the hospital, I would be home with my guns at the ready to protect my family from the riots and desperate people doing what they need to do to survive. Many more people would die, and suffer in the process, but at least it would be over, till the next time. the idea of the vaccine, is to try to get enough people relatively immune as to not over-run the health care system. Our ED has 18 beds, 4 nurses, and 4 tech if we are fully staffed. to get more nurses, we can shut down all elective surgeries and procedures. We always have one doc on, and 2 mid-levels throughout the day. We will still have heart attacks and other emergencies. Minor things will be triaged and told to wait. after 6 hours they will leave and go home to fend for themselves. We are seeing 70 to 85 pt. a day, our normal is about 65. just adding 20 more to that number, or increasing how sick they are, pushes us over the top. We suspect a few pt.s have gotten covid in the hospital. getting covid after having it before or getting vaccinated, does reduce you chance of being really sick. It makes you less likely to pass it to someone else. to my knowledge I have not had the disease, and my face it 12 inches from the seriously ill patients who have it during intubation. we respond to emergencies all over our hospital. all of our cases but one is the delta variant, and I have admitted only one vaccinated pt. to the hospital with covid. she was 101 y/o.
my daughter works for a company that manages delivery of hospital employees, nurses primarily. She says that they are fighting federal and state rules that prevent importing nurses.. Bring in nurses from other countries is controlled by the State Department, it may take years to get a permit to come in (green cards, ya know). Some States have laws that do not recognize credential from all other states. So, foreign nurse personnel are a slow trickle, and states have to have agreements with the other states to transfer credentials.
Ridiculous bureaucrats defending their little fiefdom
Oh those pundits are still around Doc B.
Statewide we are back up to a 10% positivity rate this week, the highest since early Feb. Our area got a distinction of being highest in the state per capita and second in the nation. I don't believe we have peaked yet but bound to be close, till the unvacc'ed cook up and broadcast another variant. The common thread, rural, reactionary, lower education... Most of my neighbors bless their hearts. Sturgis apparently was a spreader event that just like the ripples from a stone cast in water it is going out from there and back home. You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
A friend has had it twice, and the vaccine after that. One of the beef processors, the unvaxed son at 34 and healthy died, the Dad is in ICU. It's a roll of the dice, or roulette with a scattergun.
J&J has published a very small study after giving some people another dose 6 months out, it did boost the antibody level 9fold. What it needs to be to be efficacious is unknown though.
Quote from: Larry on August 25, 2021, 08:02:03 PM
We have a great biker rally in September. Bikes, Blues, and BBQ. Attracts some 250,000 from outside the area plus the locals. Never causes much trouble and brings lots of $$$'s to the area. Fun time for all. I even enjoy it!
The local hospitals are asking for the rally to be cancelled. They are filled to capacity with covid patients, mostly not vaccinated. From past experience the rally does generate some trauma accidents so they brought in extra help and were prepared. This year no icu beds, and no extra help. I can understand their position.
It's open for discussion now, so I'll watch to see how it plays out.
Canceled. That didn't take long. The University of Arkansas provides parking space along with space for events, and vendors. They said no way.
I had a vision if the event was held. Trauma cases waiting on the street for a bed because they are all filled up, mostly with the un-vaccinated.
be safe and God bless folks. I am off to work.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on August 27, 2021, 05:45:53 PMmy daughter works for a company that manages delivery of hospital employees, nurses primarily. She says that they are fighting federal and state rules that prevent importing nurses..
While you are probably right about the
bureaucrats, it's not like other States or even Countries have an excess of Nurses and Drs to spread around. Pandemic means it's affected every country to some extent. One of the issues with vaccination and testing here has been getting enough staff to operate the centres. Nurses all have their regular full time jobs with the normal sick and injured. So Uni students have been recruited to help staff the centres. They aren't trained to give vaccines, but they can look after the paperwork, checking folks in and out etc, and that frees nurses up to do the actual jabbing or swabbing. And that's Without having a ton of extra Covid cases clogging up the Hospitals.
With all the "retirements" of nurses and docs, I have to wonder. Do you think it's because the disease is everywhere and they have different risks....the risk of getting the disease or the risk of taking it home or spreading it to others? Or is it because they see the results of the disease and can't believe people are so slanted that they just won't accept reality? This thread is titled, "Just the facts...." I can tell you it's a fact that the nurses are incredibly demoralized over the incredible need for care of this infection, and the lack of real truthful discussion about it. One of them told me the other day, "I just want to slap somebody." For those of you outside of medicine, that's quite a strong statement from a nurse.
My personal belief is that they would work until they'd drop, if they had to, or if they thought it would do any good, but it's very demoralizing to be willing to do that in the face of a portion of the population that only accepts "alternative facts." Nurses don't mind losing a well designed and executed medical battle. If the team was pulling the wagon in the same direction, and all agreed on the plan, nurses can justify for themselves that they have done all they could, and they lost the battle. This is different. They feel like they have one hand tied behind their backs and duck tape across their mouths. They ain't happy, and justifiably so.
And yet we still have the argument about whether the Covid vaccines work? News flash! They are not a get outta jail free card. However, you will be able to keep playing the game.
my wife is a pharmacist, and she and the pharm techs now give the vaccine in the pharmacy front area.
The trend was headed that direction before this fiasco. All skilled labor was facing shortages. We needed 40,000 welders before the pandemic. I won't get into the reasons for the demoralized crews here. Plenty of that discussion elsewhere. Our neighbor is a Pharmacist for a national chain here. The smaller towns Pharmacies are closed 2 days a week now because of the Pharmacist shortage. Name the occupation, same story.
I know 3 nurse practitioners who have thrown in the towel in the last 6 months. This wasn't from any pre existing situation. All very well qualified with good spirit. They were all capable of retiring but none had mentioned anything like that before the pandemic. We are chewing up the front line.
we just had a meeting with our finance guy to see what early retirement would look like. I am 60 and my wife turns 57 on the 30th. we could do it, but goes against the grain.
Quote from: doc henderson on August 27, 2021, 10:10:44 PM
we just had a meeting with our finance guy to see what early retirement would look like. I am 60 and my wife turns 57 on the 30th. we could do it, but goes against the grain.
My wife and I retired end of August 2011, I was 59 and she was 55, no regrets but it's a very personal decision.
It is scary if you are used to working. i like my job when it is manageable. covid +s in 20s and 30s going home, 50 and 60s in hospital, will be on vent in am.
God speed Doc!
JJ
Thanks JJ.
Quote from: doctorb on August 27, 2021, 08:53:09 PM
With all the "retirements" of nurses and docs, I have to wonder. Do you think it's because the disease is everywhere and they have different risks....the risk of getting the disease or the risk of taking it home or spreading it to others? Or is it because they see the results of the disease and can't believe people are so slanted that they just won't accept reality? This thread is titled, "Just the facts...." I can tell you it's a fact that the nurses are incredibly demoralized over the incredible need for care of this infection, and the lack of real truthful discussion about it. One of them told me the other day, "I just want to slap somebody." For those of you outside of medicine, that's quite a strong statement from a nurse.
What surprises me is the nurses and healthcare professionals in the Twin Cities have overall low vaccination rates for Covid-19 and they are loudly protesting mandatory vaccination mandates by their employers. Some have even said they will quit rather than get the vaccine.
It's hard to make sense out of what is going on these days.
Finally some real data and from Science Magazine too. But the researchers caution that you should not have "infection parties." Another caution is though the differences are huge between the groups, the actual numbers of infections is relatively small for both groups. In other words, the two best groups to be in are either the infected or the vaccinated and never the unvaccinated and uninfected group.
Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-no-infection-parties)
The study, led by Tal Patalon and Sivan Gazit at KSM, the system's research and innovation arm, found in two analyses that people who were vaccinated in January and February were, in June, July, and the first half of August, six to 13 times more likely to get infected than unvaccinated people who were previously infected with the coronavirus. In one analysis, comparing more than 32,000 people in the health system, the risk of developing symptomatic COVID-19 was 27 times higher among the vaccinated, and the risk of hospitalization eight times higher.
Nussenzweig's group has published data showing people who recover from a SARS-CoV-2 infection continue to develop increasing numbers and types of coronavirus-targeting antibodies for up to 1 year. By contrast, he says, twice-vaccinated people stop seeing increases "in the potency or breadth of the overall memory antibody compartment" a few months after their second dose.
For many infectious diseases, naturally acquired immunity is known to be more powerful than vaccine-induced immunity and it often lasts a lifetime. Other coronaviruses that cause the serious human diseases severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) trigger robust and persistent immune responses. At the same time, several other human coronaviruses, which usually cause little more than colds, are known to reinfect people regularly.
I can understand that naturally acquired immunity from fighting off the disease IS probably better than the vaccine. But some folks have caught the virus twice, but luckily that seems rare. But there are still "break trough" cases there. Big problem is that a lot more folks will die getting immunity that way.
I'd say the "safest" would be vaccinated, and THEN fighting off the virus with a mild case.
Either way, one should work as a booster for the other.
we did 28 tests, and although my ratio was 50% +, overall 6 out of 28 were + in the lab. some are routine for admission to the hospital to keep infected folks separated (quarantined). 21% +.
As far as nurses crossing borders to work, I believe there are at least 1500 living in Canada that cross daily to work in US healthcare facilities. I know it was a big news item a few months back about nurses crossing to work in Michigan around Detroit. ;)
Pharmacies here have been delivering vaccines all along during the rollout. Anyone I know of got their shots at a pharmacy.
I got both of the pfizer shots back in April an June. Last week I got an antibody test done, this morning thru an e-mail I was told I have 0 antibody's in my system. Being that I take anti viral drugs for my cancer I'm assuming that is the reason for the 0 antibody to the covid 19 virus. If it wasn't for my guess on on being on anti viral's I'd wonder why bother getting a covid anti virus shots. My Cancer Dr. said he had no preference on which shot (pfizer or modurna) that I should get for a 3d shot? But why bother.
I have been wearing a mask since 2017 and using hand cleaner and what not I wonder how many people complaining about getting this shot would like to live like I do.
I have read that antibody tests are not a true indicator of protection from the the virus, meaning that just because you test negative for the antibody doesn't mean the vaccine doesn't work. That was from the FDA.
It's not even accepted for travel into the Country (Canada). You need a molecular test. One of the reasons a vaccine card won't do you any good, gotta have the test.
in the immune system the antibodies mostly identify a foreign actor, and alert the T and B cell lymphocytes. in the absence of an infection, the basal antibody levels may be at undetectable levels. the studies to look at the difference in anti-covid response would be complex. your immune system can identify thousand of things as "not supposed to be there". there are memory cells ready to make a ton if needed. @Ed_K (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=257) you are still most likely better off having been vaccinated than not. If immunocompromised, I would get it, and also go for the monoclonal antibody if exposed in a serious way. just my recommendation.
Talking earlier about shortages. Our local hospital was built around 2006 and has never been fully staffed. In fact right now, if your wife was giving birth, you have to travel 100 miles to Fredericton instead of the 24 miles to Waterville. This was going on long before COVID. Even the MRI is a mobile unit on a transport trailer. If you've got something serious going on, your chances are not good down there. The other hospital up river has become a lay over for seniors waiting to get nursing home beds. Not going to get anything done there, except maybe an X-ray. It don't look like it will be improving and the first to lose are rural folks as the tentacles retract toward the cities. ;)
had about 6 patients waiting for 3 hours between the ages of 2 and 17 when I got to work. most had RSV. 2 had covid. of the adults, about half tested had covid, but almost all went home. 1 got monoclonal antibodies. oldest was 57. no one vaccinated. prob. saw 20 total for covid, 60 patients total in 12 hours.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/36F093C6-E0BF-4E6A-A5C1-4D9B2ED0C027.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1630918998)
and Dr. Zucchini.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/F7CFDB7A-040D-43D0-8F6A-40E673B866BE.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1630921826)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on September 06, 2021, 03:58:21 AM
Talking earlier about shortages. Our local hospital was built around 2006 and has never been fully staffed. In fact right now, if your wife was giving birth, you have to travel 100 miles to Fredericton instead of the 24 miles to Waterville. This was going on long before COVID. Even the MRI is a mobile unit on a transport trailer. If you've got something serious going on, your chances are not good down there. The other hospital up river has become a lay over for seniors waiting to get nursing home beds. Not going to get anything done there, except maybe an X-ray. It don't look like it will be improving and the first to lose are rural folks as the tentacles retract toward the cities. ;)
It's really bad here in NS, 2-3 year wait list just to finally get assigned a GP. everything's backed up and now since COVID they have shut a lot of people with much more serious issues than COVID out and some have died as a result.
Might as well just privatize the whole thing because we're paying large amounts of taxes and can't even get basic care in return. Why are we evening using this socialist health care then??
In the final year of our privatized system my premium was more than my income.
Looks like we're in quarantine till tested, glad I brought the skidsteer home.
Last week I went on a deployment with the FEMA search and rescue task that I'm a member of. Only vaccinated members were chosen for the deployment. Upon arrival at headquarters for sign-in we all had to do a rapid and a PCR test for COVID. Before we left with an 80 person crew, one person was found to be positive based on 2 separate rapid tests. He was sent home. On the second day as we were driving south a member was taken off of the bus I was riding on because his PCR test came back positive. He had apparently had covid a month before, so may have tested positive still. He was sent back home. The rest of the trip we all had to wear N95 masks almost at all times. We were allowed to sleep with them off as long as we were at least 6 feet apart. We were all sleeping a large gymnasium. We were also allowed to take them off outdoors when we were spread out. After an 8 day deployment, we all had to have another PCR test on arrival back at headquarters. I was just notified that all 78 were negative. On deployments last year, of course no one was vaccinated, and numerous persons on each deployment became ill.
Lindy has had a cough and slightly sore throat for about 4 days but no fever. Her lymph nodes in her neck were swollen some. That has gone away. No loss of smell or taste. I guess I'll pick up a home test kit for here today just to be safe although she is feeling better. I've had no symptoms at all. Both of us had the J&J vax in May but she does take immunosuppressants so the vax possibly did her no good.
sounds like a great plan Lee.
I had to go get a chemo shot in the belly yesterday and they gave me a print out of my covid19 antibody test. The way I read it is if the number is <0.8 no antibodies, mine showed 11.8 so I guess I have some.
The provincial government is coming down hard on vaccine holdouts. We now need a digital vaccine passport by Sept 21 or be refused entry to indoor public places. Got mine online this morning in less than ten minutes and I'm no genius on a computer. It seems heavy handed but we are having a resurgence and too many people are refusing to cooperate. They will carry a drivers licence, a medical care card and a Costco membership card but ask them to show proof of vaccination and now their rights are being taken away by Big Brother. ::) I have to wonder how they will have scanners in place in such a short time.
In the name of "safety", we will revoke your rights. Been going on since the 70s, little here, little there, eroding of freedoms through regulations and by laws and now they're just straight up forcing a lot of people to inject whatever into them. I think this is something that should be encouraged but these domestic vaccine passports is crossing the freedom line. I'll double down on my stance too. Good thing I don't go out to bars or restaurants anyway, or travel.
Or supermarkets or hardware stores? Or the bank?
From what I read here in Nova Scotia they are talking about the proof of vaccine for indoor non-essential things like bars, theatres, restaurants ..... they will also be lifting gathering limits and mask mandates as well. They are talking about doing this on Sept.15 as it is expected to be at 75% fully vaccinated.
Here are the accepted tests when travelling to Canada. And testing is still required before entry.
COVID-19 testing for travellers - Travel restrictions in Canada ? Travel.gc.ca (https://travel.gc.ca/travel-covid/travel-restrictions/flying-canada-checklist/covid-19-testing-travellers-coming-into-canada#recovered-test-positive)
PCR test is one of the accepted tests.
I'm working on planning a fishing trip to Ontario next June. It looks like right now I have to show proof that I'm 14 days past an approved last dose, have a negative molecular test within 72 hours of crossing, be subject to random rapid testing at the border. Not a huge deal, but sad that it has to be.
Quote from: sawguy21 on September 10, 2021, 05:16:30 PM
Or supermarkets or hardware stores? Or the bank?
Groceries are essential, pretty sure in NS hardware and banks will be too. I have human contact less than handful of times a week.
Statistics are what you make of them, pro or con. Interpretation is for the individual. Our county case rate has exploded dramatically and our fully vaccinated rate is around 64% currently. Case numbers are inflated due to out of county cases being moved here, as we have four hospitals in the county. We are getting daily info in the newspaper, how many cases, how many infectious, how many hospitalized, how many in ICU, on ventilators, AND HOW MANY ARE VACCINATED. Currently in the past week, the Covid-hospitalized % that are vaccinated patients has run between 15-25%. For a vaccine(s) that is supposed to prevent serious illness and hospitalization, tell me why the hospital rate of the vaxxed is so high it itself?. And not the argument of "look how bad if you're not". Statistics. Doesn't that say the vaccine is not nearly effective as advertised?
We have 75% vac rate on NS, one of the best rates over North America, still isn't enough for these people to just let things go back to normal.
It is hard to study. do the remaining 25% already have immunity from natural disease? if so, let it go. At this point you are going to get the shot or the disease or both. all the mitigation just keeps the hospitals able to handle the load. barely. we have a 190 bed hospital but only enough nurses to staff 50 to 60 beds. we have an 18 bed ED with plenty of docs and mid-levels, but have trouble increasing nursing staff to keep up. we have the state fair this week. I walked through a waiting area last night with at least 12 people waiting. nothing I could do to help, as everyone was back in a room that could be taken. The day we have 200 people at the front entrance of the ED, is when we lock the door with armed guards and only let in people as we can take them. It has not got that bad yet in part due to the masks and the social distancing. but only a percentage of people followed those guidelines. day by day.
My wife works in the ICU and gets a daily update with COVID statistics from the hospital. Last few weeks averaged 96%+ of patients in the ICU with COVID have been unvaccinated. Can't speak to statistics in other areas of the country, but this is reality in Charlotte, NC. I waited 6 hours in the ER with a severed finger a few weeks ago because it was full of COVID patients with more serious conditions - docs told me they were all not vaccinated and thanked me for getting mine.
It must be a regional thing as there are several I know around here that have been double tapped but are sick as a dog including my Uncle Doug. Of course he got his back in the Spring so it may be losing it's effectiveness.
It is not 100%. of all the tests we do, only 1 in 9 + had a vaccine. Most of these do not wind up in the hospital and die. everyone's definition of really sick varies, and I assure you mine is quite severe. I hope he survives and still think his chances are better having had the vaccine. If you are older or have immuno-compromise it may not take as well.
89- heavy drinker. Time will tell
Pretty obvious that the handwriting is on the wall, IF one wants to read it and make a helpful decision.
If not for themselves, then maybe for their families, friends, and maybe most important.. for our hospitals with shortage of nurses.
It's true but it's not right to refuse care just because somebody is alcoholic or a heavy smoker. It starts out easy but get a person over time.
I told a customer I was sorry to hear his aunt passed away(brain cancer) He said she smoked so she brought it on herself. I just walked away.
Quote from: HemlockKing on September 15, 2021, 12:54:40 PM
We have 75% vac rate on NS, one of the best rates over North America, still isn't enough for these people to just let things go back to normal.
I don't think 75% is enough to shut down the Delta virus, it spreads so easily, and you still have "x" thousands of people to spread it.
Locally we have been watching what's happening in other countries, to get an idea where we are going to go next.
Denmark has basically lifted all restrictions, but they also have a ~90% vaccination rate. They are still getting cases, some non vaccinated, some break though, But not so many cases that hospitals are overwhelmed. It's now more like a bad flu season for them. They are maybe 3 months ahead of us on the vaccinations.
Data out of Australia says that of the patients in hospital, only 2% were fully vaccinated, 19% had on shot, and the rest had none. Here in NZ none of the Covid patients in hospital were vaccinated, but that's only about 40 people. That's fairly telling that the vaccine helps, even if you catch the virus, you don't get seriously sick. And by seriously sick, I mean bad enough to need hospital care. You could still be laid up for a week or 2, but not "life in danger" level sick.
Loggers, Landscapers Face Deadly Danger Felling Trees in Forests and Urban Areas (http://sm1.multiview.com/t/gcH1AAibaBPWKG1gQJT3nCHZ8DGnaKqDVU4maaaaReBQUJLNxaa?l=9_vBy~amp;l=Xwjmk1Wzz9t~25Cspg1eiat.Uwe~amp;t=31~amp;p=)
Pennsylvania State University via Phys.org, Sept. 14, 2021 Tree felling — whether by professional loggers in a forest setting or by landscapers in urban and rural landscapes — is the most dangerous job in what are two of the most dangerous industries, according to Penn State researchers who conducted a new study of associated deaths. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration calls logging "the most dangerous occupation in the United States." The fatal injury rate for loggers is more than 30 times the rate for all U.S. workers. Tree-care workers also encounter hazards at rates much higher than the average employee. READ MORE (http://sm1.multiview.com/t/gcH1AAibaBPWKG1gQJT3nCHZ8DGnaKqDVU4maaaaReBQUJLNxaa?l=9_vBy~amp;l=Xwjmk1Wzz9t~25Cspg1eiat.Uwe~amp;t=32~amp;p=) |
|
The E-Forester
Ron that is an interesting article. I read it and the 2 follow-ups that it pointed me to. I don't think it provides any news that most of us here don't already know and suspect it might encourage some insurance companies to raise their rates, which is a normal knee-jerk reaction. I do think the subject deserves a thread of it's own, not sure how it relates to the subject of this thread.
It always strikes me as funny that the world of academia, actuaries, and government need an expensive 'study' to determine what anybody who is paying attention already knows intuitively. ;D
We all do things every day that are dangerous and have consequences, it's been going on since the dawn of time ;) .
And here's some hopeful news......
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/27/health/covid-treatment-pill-khn-partner/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/27/health/covid-treatment-pill-khn-partner/index.html)
75% was not enough for us in New Brunswick. 'Higgie baby', the premier, put the breaks on Friday, gotta mask up again and now vaccination before you can get into crowded spaces. The target now is 90%. We have a lot more active cases than we ever had, but the numbers that we have are still a lot lower, way lower, than other places on the continent. 650 active cases, 41 in hospital, 16 in ICU. Their data does not show cases by vaccination status. But they tell us similar percentages by vax status as Doc here is telling us.
We are about 80% vaccinated now.
Quote from: newoodguy78 on September 20, 2021, 12:58:17 PM
We all do things every day that are dangerous and have consequences, it’s been going on since the dawn of time ;) .
Cigarettes and alcohol, both as individuals amount to more deaths than any covid can in a year in the US. This is just why i don’t buy “for your safety” baloney, alternative motives behind all of it. We have been basically reduced to nothing “for our safety” through regulation and bylaws since the 70s. Now we’re gonna have domestic vaccine passports to even move interprovincial. I could get behind nationally. But not provincial, here we had our government flying in a bunch of immigrants from India during their massive outbreak, left our international borders open WEEKS, after the virus was well
Known. But yeah they care for us.and I don’t believe in outlawing those things, I just find it funny how you’re only allowed to take drugs that they have a lock over, weed? Your going to prison buddy, but feel
Free to drink literal poison that can cause seizures if stopped cold turkey.
I think that was one of those statistics we hear tell of that are made up on the spot :D.
A couple of weeks ago 100% of the covid patients in our hospital were unvaxxed. A woman my wife works with has CF. She needed to get to the ICU, she was closing up and coughing up blood. Two days later they got her in. That has never happened.
I don't recall that with smokes or alcohol. In the US we are at 680,000 deaths last I heard, from my memory of the body count I think the variant has taken more lives. The undertaker here has been quite busy.
Quote from: Don P on September 27, 2021, 04:57:07 PM
I think that was one of those statistics we hear tell of that are made up on the spot :D.
A couple of weeks ago 100% of the covid patients in our hospital were unvaxxed. A woman my wife works with has CF. She needed to get to the ICU, she was closing up and coughing up blood. Two days later they got her in. That has never happened.
I don't recall that with smokes or alcohol. In the US we are at 680,000 deaths last I heard, from my memory of the body count I think the variant has taken more lives. The undertaker here has been quite busy.
680 but is also been over 1.5 year… the data for smoke and liquor is just per year
Hemlock:
Covid: 680,000 deaths in 1.5 years
Smoking:
Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day. On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers.Mar. 23, 2020
Alcohol:
An estimated 95,000 people (approximately 68,000 men and 27,000 women) die from alcohol-related causes annually,15 making alcohol the third-leading preventable cause of death in the United States.
So smoking and Covid have similar annual death rates. Alcohol is certainly a serious cause of death, but is not statistically close to those two.
My 9 y/o gd caught Covid last week. She has been quarantined with her 2 older sisters. She had no smell was how they became suspicious. After 2 days she was feeling normal and running around. No others have symptoms so far. My son and SIL had it last November. I think the 9 y/o can go back to school later this week but the older girls have to wait another 4-5 days.
Some of the areas pushing the passports the hardest have legalized or at least de criminalized almost every street drug.
Yup, all for your own good.
Today I was at our local Amish store and an older woman was filling up a cart with canning supplies. I joked with her to leave some for others and she told me she was loosing her job tomorrow and would have time to start canning. A friend had told her about our store so she drove out from Rochester. Turns out she is an ICU nurse loosing her job for refusing the vaccine. She worked 12 hour plus days for over a year now dealing with people very sick from covid and also reactions from the vaccines. Had no problems all that time following procedures but now will be fired. She said more staff from her hospital at all levels will also be fired tomorrow. At that point her hospital will have too many beds filled for the number of staff left. Also said the state is refusing unemployment benefits for anyone fired tomorrow but felt lawsuits would change that. I wouldn't want to be in a hospital in NY tomorrow. My body my choice is no longer being honored in NY and I could tell she was going to miss nursing but looking forward to some time for herself.
Filled hospital beds is a result of those who make the choice. Not hard to understand that bottom line.
Sad that hospital administrators are having to require their nurses to be vaccinated, but the same is happening in many hospitals and other institutions and businesses.
There are other patients with a need for hospital beds beyond just those going in with Covid. They deserve to be in a safe (as possible) environment which to me would include vaccinated staff.
i think there should be an exemption also if you already had the disease. i do not know that i have had it. i am tired a lot, but i am 60 and working more than i like. If you have antibodies you should not need vaccinated. If i can stick tubes down very ill patients airways with my face 10 inches away and not get it, surely asymptomatic nurses with covid can keep it from patients. i think cancer or heart transplant units would have to be an exception. i guarantee we have a job in Kansas for anyone who wants it as a nurse. we do not yet require it at the hospital, but my corporation/company does. no vaccine after nov. 1 or you are fired, or at least cannot work.
Numbers from NZ today. In the Delta outbreak, only 4% of the adult cases were fully vaccinated people, and none of them have ended up in hospital. 78% was people with no shots, and the balance would be only one shot, or too recent to work properly. An additional ~25% has been in children too young to be vaccinated currently, but fortunately usually less severely affected.
Deaths from, the vaccine? So for it's ONE. From ~5 million shots. I don't know anyone locally that's had a serious bad side effect. One lady fainted, some felt like crud the next day, plenty of sore arms, but nothing "serious".
Deaths from Covid is now 27, from ~4,000 infections.
I'm now in the "fully vaxed" group (got shots early due to health issues). Lil and Ms 14 got theirs over the weekend, and get 2nd shots next month.
My wife and I are going to get our booster on Friday. We both qualify as we are both in high risk jobs.
Hopefully my parents will manage to get it this week too.
We had a BSA meeting last night. social distancing. got a text this am that one fully vaccinated asymptomatic adult, test + this am. it is everywhere and delta is more contagious. you will get the vaccine, or the disease, or both. The hope is that you will survive if you have the vaccine first. you are young and healthy and would prob. survive, but we need you able to work, and you might spread it to others. And there is a chance you could have long term consequences or worse. Our daily contact with the disease also keeps our immunity up. Godspeed folks!
now comes RSV and influenza season. with less mitigation (after the vaccine) then we may see a terrible flu season.
Quote from: doc henderson on September 27, 2021, 10:52:46 PM
i am tired a lot, but i am 60 and working more than i like.
Just a thought, but after 18 months of brutal hours the temptation to get a break has got to be powerful among folks who have reached a certain age. If their portfolios performed half as well as mine the idea of taking the winter off and spending some of the profit in a warmer climate or even just taking the winter off and doing nothing has got to sound pretty appealing. Probably tempting even for younger folks. It's not like they can't go back to work if they want to. The immortal words of David Alan Coe "Take this Job and Shove It." Might explain the reported vax hesitancy among healthcare workers.
Amen!
Doc,
Prayers for you and other front line folk working to assist those that are sick, not just for your knowledge, skill and compassion but for your well being!
As you often say Godspeed!
We spent a week in Colorado 13-20 Sept and my wife said is the first time she has not gotten a cold or sinus issues from such a trip and says she figures wearing the mask helped and says she may wear one from now on when she flies anywhere.
Crazy as this may sound, and I do not intend this as a political statement, but maybe we should consider vaccinated and non-vaccinated health care facilities. Have those health care workers who choose not to be vaxed work at a hospital together, which accepts all patients, but would be the preferred facility of those patients and health care workers who choose not to be vaxed. The hospital workers would be able to exercise their choice and keep employment. The patients in the vaxed hospital would feel safer, (and yes, they probably would be). And those that are non-vaxed would be treated by like minded people and be removed from any stigma of their choice.
Would any non-vaccinated people have strong objections to be shifted to the care of non-vaccinated health care workers?
Now this falls under the broad heading of discrimination, but by choice. Is anything like this possible? Just free-form spit-balling an idea here.....
So lets further divide our society. Did you think that through before posting it? How about folks who have STDs work in their own facility? Those with a limp go to only one doctor so they don't feel oppressed by "normal walkers". Where does natural immunity fall into this? Those folks get treatment at a FEMA camp?
Seriously, I didn't expect you to say something like that.
Of course I see that end of it. My intent was to have dedicated healthcare workers not lose their jobs, and have people who need all types of care continue to have access to it. Under this current system, we have both negatives....people out of work and people whose care is diminished because of Covid. Obviously, this would be a temporary fix for the good of a community. Geesh! We are already so divided on the vax issue that I was merely proposing a potential win win. People don't have STD's by choice. People are vaccinated or not by choice. There is a difference.
That sounds like a good idea. I definitely would rather have a properly educated nurse with 40 years of experience following procedures that is unvaccinated than what NY is starting to do bringing in untrained National guards and nurses from third world countries without proper credentials to fill the gap because they are vaccinated. They also have closed all walk in care offices and pulled any vaccinated employees to staff hospitals that will put a big load on emergency rooms in our area. Along with forcing more covid positive to visit er's. Meanwhile the mailman that doesn't have to be vaccinated and followed no procedures touches everyone in the areas mailbox and mail with the virus being able to survive days on paper and cardboard can easily contaminate a whole neighborhood. There is no explanation or science for the divisive rules being implemented at this point.
My daughter works for a company that places staff in hospitals, I have had an in depth discussion with her of how to handle the staffing and the virus. It seems that the bureaucracy is so screwed up that your method would take years to be considered much less applied, and for the states to get rid of their restrictions on nurses, and for the feds to open up the green card applications from foreign nurses to allow them in with out the current years wait for vetting.
The feds have this so screwed up they should be charged under RICO for mass murder.
So how is it temporary? Until those who choose not to accept a completely unproven jab - you know the ones that even the company executives say to not give to kids - are forced to comply?
For the good of the community we need to remove the tyrants, with extreme prejudice. The Founding Fathers had no issue with doing so. We have a history of doing exactly that in foreign lands at the cost of much treasure and blood.
What are you so afraid of? You are protected, you had your jab. I have much greater faith in my immunity.
Quote from: Southside on September 29, 2021, 11:16:04 PMa completely unproven jab
Nope.
The vaccine HAS been proven safe, and mostly effective. Not 100% effective, but that's not the point. Like about 5 million doses here in NZ, and only one death that was somewhat related to the vaccine.
The point is that if hospitals are full of Covid patients, or even worse Covid infected staff, then what about the kid up the street that needs treatment for lukemia, or the little old lady across the road that has a stroke?
The vaccine isn't about ME, it's about putting a lid on the pandemic and letting us all get back to some sort of normal life. Take the politics out of the equation, and what's the best way back to "normal"?
the issue with kids is the same for all drugs. no good parent signs there kids up to get some new drug with potential side effects. it always starts with adults, and in this case the most vulnerable. I respect peoples rights to decide for themselves, especially lets say pregnant or wanting to be pregnant women. But there is also so much misinformation spread, so it is not like people can really make a good decision. All of the covid patients I have admitted to the hospital this evening were unvaccinated, and all the ones I diagnosed and sent home were unvaccinated. one was 20 and 300 pounds, so now she gets man made antibody, vs a shot to make her own, since she is at risk. It is a world wide pandemic and killing people, so there have to be some drastic measures, and make choices with the least amount of risk. If it is too politicized, then no one will believe any information to the contrary of what they already believe and here we are. I had a doc say at med exec meeting, let the unvaccinated, just go home and take care of themselves. I do not believe in that. We are fortunate that we have not got to the place we all give up and go home. It has been considered by many. the people loosing there jobs are prob. at that point. and what a way to thank them after almost 2 years of risking there lives. we are all going to get the shot, or the disease, or some combo of all the above. I get what you are saying @doctorb (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10176) . wait till unvaccinated patients then refuse to be cared for by unvaccinated healthcare workers. everyone is afraid, and no one knows what to believe. God bless all.
Quote from: Southside on September 29, 2021, 11:16:04 PM
So how is it temporary? Until those who choose not to accept a completely unproven jab - you know the ones that even the company executives say to not give to kids - are forced to comply?
For the good of the community we need to remove the tyrants, with extreme prejudice. The Founding Fathers had no issue with doing so. We have a history of doing exactly that in foreign lands at the cost of much treasure and blood.
What are you so afraid of? You are protected, you had your jab. I have much greater faith in my immunity.
Quote from: Southside on September 29, 2021, 11:16:04 PM
So how is it temporary? Until those who choose not to accept a completely unproven jab - you know the ones that even the company executives say to not give to kids - are forced to comply?
For the good of the community we need to remove the tyrants, with extreme prejudice. The Founding Fathers had no issue with doing so. We have a history of doing exactly that in foreign lands at the cost of much treasure and blood.
What are you so afraid of? You are protected, you had your jab. I have much greater faith in my immunity.
Governments make me laugh hard. Reminds me of climate change to, “we care, let’s be more green” , “let’s burden our citizens with carbon taxes” ……lets “recycle” by burning tons of diesel fuel to container ship all this plastic back to asia(contradicting no?)
then we got the anti logger activists that want to stop cutting down forests but in the same stroke they want millions of immigrants a year to pollute us, more trees need to be cut(for more homes)?So not so green no?
And now we got this COVID, which has turned pretty much political now and used as another wedge, I know, I agree with you, people who have their shots, what’s to worry? Go on with life and let the rest live with their decisions
I’m just rambling but just examples of why I won’t let my opinions be eroded down by propaganda/question every motive government has, it’s just a big business and that’s it.
I knew going into the pandemic that COVID was REAL, I'm not anti vax, but i did fully expect the government to use this to benefit themselves(it's in their best interest to try to turn any situation into something that will help them) never let a good crisis go to waste comes to mind
I know some would say “but what happens when the hospitals overload?” What about the folks who got vaccinated or people of other sicknesses need to see a doctor but can’t because unvaccinated? I don’t know the answer to that, maybe we need to pay doctors more to attract more to adjust, but we’re getting to near 80% vax rate where I live, how far can you take it? You could never hit 100%, because some people for reasons can’t take the vaccine. We had a shortage of doctors locally here pre pandemic, oddly enough we pay the highest taxes in Canada though, with very little services to show for.
I do know one thing, we have enough restrictions in today’s world. Enough is enough
Interesting responses. My "proposal" was entirely theoretical, as has been pointed out, it would take years and lots of squabbles to have something meaningful be a change for the better. But, as a healthcare worker, I hear every day from my friends in the business how stretched they are because of Covid. One of my good OR nurse friends told me yesterday that they really can't absorb more staffing loss, and they will lose 6-7 nurses this month because of the Covid mandate. I know some of those nurses well. They are excellent, experienced people who I would let take care of me. I feel for them as well as the majority of the team will be left behind to pull the wagon with less horses. Just trying to find a way to have all patients have access to care.
My understanding is/was that the vax does not prevent an individual from contacting Covid nor prevent an infected individual, vaxed or not, from passing it on. The vax benefit does seem to lessen the effects of the virus on a vaxed person.
If this is true then why does it matter whether health car workers or anyone else chooses to vax or not?
Edit: I do realize that the severity of the virus in unvaxed folks seems to be causing the overload on our medical facilities and personnel. This to me would be the only argument for the vax. ??
So, a question for the two Drs.- what is the reason that you hear most often from the nurses that are refusing the vaccine? I don't intend this as a "gotcha" question, either. I know quite a few nurses but haven't had an opportunity to discuss the issue with them, so I'm honestly just curious.
Quote from: doctorb on September 30, 2021, 07:15:19 AMne of my good OR nurse friends told me yesterday that they really can't absorb more staffing loss, and they will lose 6-7 nurses this month because of the Covid mandate
These are people who have worked through this entire event, and are now suddenly considered a health risk? Why? Because a politician is demanding those nurses bodies financially benefit a chosen pharmaceutical corporation, while completely ignoring the science and medicine of immunity.
You want to retain those employees? You all walk out of the hospital together, let the weak hospital administrator who refuses to stand up to the politicians care for every patient in the facility. At that point he or she will make a decision. Either they will quit at which time they can be replaced with someone with an ounce of common sense, or they will tell the politician what they can do with their mandate, and actually stand behind the employees who have sacrificed throughout this.
You can remove the politics from it, or you can cover for the lost staff. It is your choice.
Quote from: Magicman on September 30, 2021, 07:43:03 AM
My understanding is/was that the vax does not prevent an individual from contacting Covid nor prevent an infected individual, vaxed or not, from passing it on. The vax benefit does seem to lessen the effects of the virus on a vaxed person.
If this is true then why does it matter whether health car workers or anyone else chooses to vax or not?
Edit: I do realize that the severity of the virus in unvaxed folks seems to be causing the overload on our medical facilities and personnel. This to me would be the only argument for the vax. ??
The problem is that is what they would have you believe. It's the new pushing the propaganda but it isn't real.
UK hospital data shocks the world: 80% of COVID deaths are among the vaccinated? COVID deaths up 3,000% after vaccine wave (https://newstarget.com/2021-09-28-covid-deaths-in-vaccinated-3000-higher.html)
There are literally hundreds of articles out there that talk about the vaccines utter failure and indeed many that talk about it being the cause of more variants and the simple logic that asks: if the vaccine works, why fear the unvaxed? Of course the hospitals! People say they are full. This has been proven false over and over and over again.
There is so much out there that isn't being reported on the main stream news that you'd never know about it if you don't go looking. It's a virtual war out there. A war of information -- crazies to the left of me, crazies to the right and I'm stuck in the middle with you! (see what I did there).....
and finally, as for treating patients....what this guy.....
Pulmonary Nurse of 31 Years Testifies How he Unknowingly Killed Patients by Following COVID Protocols - The Goodly Lawful Society (https://thegoodlylawfulsociety.org/pulmonary-nurse-of-31-years-testifies-how-he-unknowingly-killed-patients-by-following-covid-protocols/)
Note: I had covid, I am unvaxxed, I did not need a hospital. I got treatments that were NOT in the 'Covid Protocol' that hospitals are using (thank god) and I did just fine. What this nurse says is what I experienced (doctors saying "go home take tylenol and if you can't breath go to emergency") but I went to doctors that are treating pneumonia the way they always have and geee wiz wally, I'm here to talk about it.
it is the politics dividing us. Out hospital is FULL. I admitted several covid patients and took the last covid bed. we have another 140 beds, but no nurses to staff them. NY (state politicians) is doing this because they are obedient Biden soldiers. He wants the vaccine. All the patients dx. with covid last night ( 8 ) were unvaccinated. all of them admitted had co-morbidities. the only places that have a high rate of admissions and death in vaccinated people are places with nearly 100% vaccinated people. you can still get covid, if vaccinated, but less likely to die of it or be as sick, which is why I have not seen any in the ED since the 100 y/o lady a few weeks ago. I think if you had covid and survived you are better off than with the vaccine alone. If someone dies from the immune response to the vaccine, might they also have died from the disease that provokes an even stronger immune response. Our area is about 50% vaccinated and have had I think 10k cases in a county of 45K. so with immunity and dx. we are at 22.5K + 10K = 32.5K /45K so 72% immune... and we are seeing cases starting to drop off. Now we need flu vaccine as mitigation wanes, and are seeing RSV. still got a ways to go looking at the big pic. I hope covid dries up so we can all talk about something else. :)
Yesterday they admitted 20% of those 15000 illegals living under the bridge and released into US cities had covid and 100% were exposed to covid. There are approximately 1200 illegals a day released into America with up to 20% being infected and they are being distributed to every state and released into the population without being vaccinated. This problem is not being taken seriously by our leaders and will strain the healthcare system for years. Yesterday on the news they said drug overdose cases are now outnumbering covid cases in areas near the border and that is expected to spread to all large cities soon. There are tons of dangerous drugs from China entering America every day with the open borders. The current administration is supporting this and is responsible for overloading the healthcare system. Bad decisions by our leaders that are praised by the fake news become a problem for all of us.
"Get Our Free Email Newsletter"
"Get independent news alerts on natural cures, food lab tests, cannabis medicine, science, robotics, drones, privacy and more."
this is an al natural, all medicine is bad, anti vax propaganda source.! this is not news.
Quote from: Magicman on September 30, 2021, 07:43:03 AM
My understanding is/was that the vax does not prevent an individual from contacting Covid nor prevent an infected individual, vaxed or not, from passing it on. The vax benefit does seem to lessen the effects of the virus on a vaxed person.
If this is true then why does it matter whether health car workers or anyone else chooses to vax or not?
Edit: I do realize that the severity of the virus in unvaxed folks seems to be causing the overload on our medical facilities and personnel. This to me would be the only argument for the vax. ??
so @magic (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=965) man. if I was unvaxed, and I saw 42 patients last night. and some of them had cancer or were immunocompromised and at high risk of death from covid... i expose them all in the name of health care, and 1 of them dies of covid they got from me... i should feel bad. i also want to live for my family, and not bring it home to my kids and wife even though I am exposed at the highest rate by profession. the Hippocratic oath says 'fist do no harm". but we have to sometimes choose what we think is the lessor evil. I have a problem with people who refuse a vaccine and also refuse to mitigate in public, and punch a Walmart greeter in the face who offers them a mask.
guys on these articles by "news" organizations you have never heard of, just keep scrolling down and look at the headings of all that they are about. you may just think I drank the koolaid, but I am a conceptual person who has learned what I can about how the body works. none of this makes sense. there are bad docs, but most are not evil and only worried about money and profit ect.
What I have always said about these alternate sources is to look for the source of their articles.
Ignoring what is posted because the site is shoddy or way out in right or left field doesn't make the gist of the article wrong. That nurse, for example, did testify and does appear to be credible (and from my personal experience with covid, anecdotal or not, would appear to be correct).
The UK stuff is based on findings that are easily searchable, so too Isreal....and Sweden? No increase in deaths YoY -- searchable.
So the 'news' (if we can call it that) site may be a wacka doodle site but the source of the article or the article itself may not be....and CNN? Give me a break! MSNBC? CBS? ABC? Fox? All corrupt. Project Veritas has done a good job of exposing them frankly.
Covid is real, it is dangerous, the news makes it scarier than it needs to be but it is treatable. Don't think Ivermectin works? Do a little searching on India and the provinces that used it vs those that did not? Check into Tokyo.
And that nurse? (did you watch his testimony?) He's right. I had pneumonia 30_ years ago, they treated it much the same way it was treated this time too....I recovered both times. Pneumonia is a killer. Heck, even treated it can be a killer -- but treated properly it is very survivable and we are not treating it if the word 'covid' is attached to it and that is medical malpractice and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law -- not politics, just opinion from a survivor.
Quotewe have another 140 beds, but no nurses to staff them.
Weird, I responded to this and it isn't there.
This is the problem -- not that the hospital is full (glass half empty?) but rather they don't have the nurses to man the beds they have. Is that because of Covid? Or poor policies? Laying off nurses because they stopped elective surgeries? Then started them again and got a covid spike at the same time?
Just saying they are full is disingenuous. Addressing why they are full is the key.
First, hospitals try to run at a high capacity for business reasons. ICU's typically run at 85% to 90% on a normal non-flu/non-covid day/week/month as is. So now you get an outbreak and they should, mathematically peak.....except for the most part they aren't changing much. Maybe because they aren't doing other procedures but still, accidents, drug overdoses etc happen.
All those tempo hospitals that weren't made use of? Come on, something is amiss.
And now we fire hospital staff who have fought through this thing for nearly two years and then complain the hospitals are full. Pure politics.
State troopers are quitting. Nurses and Doctors are too......70% of PHD's don't want the vax......Big Pharma's folks also have a higher than normal rate of NOT getting them......
And then we create a tiered system where the vaxxed are at the top and the unvaxxed are at the bottom? But wait, those of us who've had it should be at the top....call me unvaxxed? Sorry, call me 'Survivor and immune' (more likely anyway than any triple boosted vaxxer).....
If I have to be out of work because I won't vax, so beit.....watch the economy tank because politics -- that's all it is. And big pharma money.
I find that newsmax has the most accurate news these days. They use actual unedited clips of the hearings and public statements of out leaders that are currently takin place. They also show areas that the mainstream news channels are editing out to change the meaning of interviews. I have a great honest doctor that is also a great source of information
Think about this. Nurses are being fired while 600,000 USPS employees are not subject to the jab mandate. All of Congress and their staff are not subject to to jab mandate. All of the Federal court system employees are not subject to the jab mandate.
At the same time nurses are being fired. This is not science based, it has nothing to do with best medical practices, it it 100% a campaign of tyranny to force an agenda.
The time to stand up or lie down and submit is here. I can assure you I know where I stand.
Quote from: Southside on September 30, 2021, 09:41:27 AM
Think about this. Nurses are being fired while 600,000 USPS employees are not subject to the jab mandate. All of Congress and their staff are not subject to to jab mandate. All of the Federal court system employees are not subject to the jab mandate.
At the same time nurses are being fired. This is not science based, it has nothing to do with best medical practices, it it 100% a campaign of tyranny to force an agenda.
The time to stand up or lie down and submit is here. I can assure you I know where I stand.
Exactly.
And I stand with you.
I am not antivax -- I have had all mine. But I will NOT take this MRNA non-vax jab. The Canadians recently released a study that 1 in 1000 jabs cause heart problems and more research has shown the vaers system is broken and deaths by this jab are not being reported.
Also, someone posted that over 600,000 deaths due to covid were reported......ya, not so fast. We know, for a fact, that if you were shot in the face and died but you tested pos for covid you were listed as a covid death. We also know, for a fact, that if you are within two weeks of receiving the jab and die of covid it's called 'unvaxxed'.....we also know the flu was not reported last year (only about 650ish deaths compared to the normal thousands) because the PCR test at 40x is faulty and the CDC had to make changes.
Yes this is a deadly bug but I will wage it will prove no more deadly than influenza in the end (even the CDC released recently that twice as many have had it than previously thought putting that number closer to 80 million and cutting the death rate in half). It's a new bug, and very contagious so people are getting it on a scale not seen since the last flu pandemic of the 50's but it will dwindle in time just like all the rest and the question is: was it worth giving up your rights and freedoms for?
I hear lots of talk about follow the money and for the profit of the big pharma companies and using it to discredit information, ask yourself the same questions about were you are getting the anti vax info ... from news outlets and websites that make money from your views and politicians that are trying to whip up fear and hysteria and then ask for a donation.
Thanks Docs for taking the time out of your busy lives to share your first hand experiences.
The latest Nova Scotia numbers Updated Sept24:
Cases by Vaccination Status (since March 15)
Unvaccinated 4337 91%
Partially vaccinated 297 6.2%
Fully vaccinated 113 2.8%
Hospitalizations by Vaccination Status (since March 15)
Unvaccinated 237 87.5%
Partially vaccinated 28 10.3%
Fully vaccinated 6 2.3%
Deaths by Vaccination Status (since March 15)
Unvaccinated 24 82.8%
Partially vaccinated 3 10.3%
Fully vaccinated 2 6.9%
Quote from: Hilltop366 on September 30, 2021, 09:50:38 AM
The latest Nova Scotia numbers Updated Sept24:
Cases by Vaccination Status (since March 15)
Unvaccinated 4337 91%
Partially vaccinated 297 6.2%
Fully vaccinated 113 2.8%
Hospitalizations by Vaccination Status (since March 15)
Unvaccinated 237 87.5%
Partially vaccinated 28 10.3%
Fully vaccinated 6 2.3%
Deaths by Vaccination Status (since March 15)
Unvaccinated 24 82.8%
Partially vaccinated 3 10.3%
Fully vaccinated 2 6.9%
Those numbers would be skewed because it dates back to March, when nobody even had the vaccine yet(meaning 100% deaths and hospitalization would be non vax), I would look at the data from the last 6 weeks
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 30, 2021, 09:48:17 AMThe Canadians recently released a study that 1 in 1000 jabs cause heart problems
FYI
Was shown to be incorrect and the study was retracted, the real numbers were more like this.
The adjusted incidence is about four per 100,000 doses, which is within the range of recent studies, and vastly lower than the initial estimate.This will explain the numerical error that caused the false information, unfortunately the error gets quoted often. Study claiming 1 in 1,000 risk of heart inflammation after COVID vaccine got calculation wrong | National Post (https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/university-of-ottawa-heart-institute-myocarditis-study)
Not Making Headlines: Sen. Ron Johnson Just Exposed on Senate Floor that the COVID Vaccines Do Not Appear to Work as Advertised (VIDEO) (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/not-making-headlines-sen-ron-johnson-just-exposed-senate-floor-covid-vaccines-not-appear-work-advertised-never-video/)
Quote from: Hilltop366 on September 30, 2021, 10:04:02 AM
Quote from: OlJarhead on September 30, 2021, 09:48:17 AMThe Canadians recently released a study that 1 in 1000 jabs cause heart problems
FYI
Was shown to be incorrect and the study was retracted, the real numbers were more like this.
The adjusted incidence is about four per 100,000 doses, which is within the range of recent studies, and vastly lower than the initial estimate.
This will explain the numerical error that caused the false information, unfortunately the error gets quoted often. Study claiming 1 in 1,000 risk of heart inflammation after COVID vaccine got calculation wrong | National Post (https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/university-of-ottawa-heart-institute-myocarditis-study)
This is good and the reason I think it's important to share what we are all reading.
There are definitely issues with the vax but it is good to see when a study is found to be wrong -- specially one as damming as this one.
Hopefully those on both sides of the issue feel the same way and recognize the info each other post when it is proven right, or wrong.....did you watch the Nurse testify?
Quote from: HemlockKing on September 30, 2021, 09:56:18 AM
Quote from: Hilltop366 on September 30, 2021, 09:50:38 AM
The latest Nova Scotia numbers Updated Sept24:
Cases by Vaccination Status (since March 15)
Unvaccinated 4337 91%
Partially vaccinated 297 6.2%
Fully vaccinated 113 2.8%
Hospitalizations by Vaccination Status (since March 15)
Unvaccinated 237 87.5%
Partially vaccinated 28 10.3%
Fully vaccinated 6 2.3%
Deaths by Vaccination Status (since March 15)
Unvaccinated 24 82.8%
Partially vaccinated 3 10.3%
Fully vaccinated 2 6.9%
Those numbers would be skewed because it dates back to March, when nobody even had the vaccine yet(meaning 100% deaths and hospitalization would be non vax), I would look at the data from the last 6 weeks
I see what you are saying but if you look at the current cases it is the same trend, most NS cases are in the 20-40 year old age group that has the lowest rate of vaccination (except children) and are more likely to precipitate in the higher risk activities like bars, restaurants and parties. (got to catch it from somewhere) Looking at that and what Doc Henderson is seeing first hand it seems to hold true.
Quote from: Magicman on September 30, 2021, 07:43:03 AMMy understanding is/was that the vax does not prevent an individual from contacting Covid nor prevent an infected individual, vaxed or not, from passing it on. The vax benefit does seem to lessen the effects of the virus on a vaxed person. If this is true then why does it matter whether health car workers or anyone else chooses to vax or not?
Sooo, I suppose that the answer to my question is 'political' which is and should be off limits for this topic on this board. smiley_headscratch I still would like to know the answer. ???
No sorry -- I only responded to the question if it does indeed help someone who gets covid -- there seems to be an issue with that.
Otherwise, I agree 100% with your statement and question. What does it matter?
If in fact one believes it is a vax in the real sense and that it protects them then why should they care if someone isn't vaxxed?
The answer they give is that the unvaxxed are taking up all the hospital beds but that isn't really true. After all, we were all unvaxxed a year ago and we didn't take up all the beds so what's so different today? IN fact, since more than 70% of American adults are apparently vaxxed today than the virus shouldn't be spreading so easily now.......accept they also recently came out and said " vaxxed people are carrying as much viral load as the unvaxxed" and that is why they went back to masks (cloth masks do nothing).....
Sadly, it is all politics today or we'd be treating covid patients like we treat flu patients who get pneumonia....but we're not....instead we push a vax that isn't working (hence boosters now....in Israel they seem to going for booster number two now and you aint vaxxed unless you've had a triple....and soon a quad....when will it end?)
Quote from: doc henderson on September 30, 2021, 09:09:28 AM
Quote from: Magicman on September 30, 2021, 07:43:03 AM
My understanding is/was that the vax does not prevent an individual from contacting Covid nor prevent an infected individual, vaxed or not, from passing it on. The vax benefit does seem to lessen the effects of the virus on a vaxed person.
If this is true then why does it matter whether health car workers or anyone else chooses to vax or not?
Edit: I do realize that the severity of the virus in unvaxed folks seems to be causing the overload on our medical facilities and personnel. This to me would be the only argument for the vax. ??
so @magic (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=965) man. if I was unvaxed, and I saw 42 patients last night. and some of them had cancer or were immunocompromised and at high risk of death from covid... i expose them all in the name of health care, and 1 of them dies of covid they got from me... i should feel bad. i also want to live for my family, and not bring it home to my kids and wife even though I am exposed at the highest rate by profession. the Hippocratic oath says 'fist do no harm". but we have to sometimes choose what we think is the lessor evil. I have a problem with people who refuse a vaccine and also refuse to mitigate in public, and punch a Walmart greeter in the face who offers them a mask.
Looks like a typo (space) notify the wrong person, or maybe it didn't answer your question.
@OlJarhead (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=12463) I have great respect for you and feel you call them like you see them. no disrespect intended. i know that what was stated is not what I see day to day, and hear from our own lab techs I have known and worked with for over 20 years. other countries may have different results, but you have to knw the facts on the ground. so this year covid may drop off, no one will wear a mask and social distance and wash there hand like crazy. so expect lots of flu deaths this year. if you are vaccinated you may be asymptomatic, but also have less viral load with premade antibodies, just like someone who has had covid, or got a dose of immune antibody infusion. do you want a nurse working on a cancer unit with patients on chemo and no immune system, or in a transplant unit. my partner of 21 years got the call last night that his son in Nashville has a matched donor heart. he is currently as I type this getting a new heart. his dad and mom have been caring for the 1 year old child the past 2 months so he can live and quarantine in the hospital I have cleared and covered 2 weeks of schedule last night after seeing him and getting the news. they fly this afternoon to be with their son who is 30. his son has died 4 times (coded ) 4 timed in the past with numerous heart surgeries. in the next year, on transplant meds, covid will kill their son. that is why they should get it, but it is political why they will be fired if they do not. they would need to be moved off these units.
I have been up over 26 hours so here is my analogy. a guy buys a chain saw. He is a responsible guy and has read about pollution, global warming, cancer, lung disease. so he decides that he should not put all that oil in the gas and pollute the air and melt the ice caps. the saw stops running in a week and he goes back to the saw store to get a new saw under warranty. no, He choose to not put oil in the gas, but wants the dealer to provide a new saw under warranty. do any of the employees of the dealer believe and therefore not put oil in the gas... if they did this they would be fired, for ruining a saw. i will read your comments later when I wake up.
sorry guys I am tired and my answers are too long. @magic (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=965) man. the vaccine helps but is not a cure all. it makes you less likely to get it, or be really sick or die compared to unvaccinated people. the benefits of health care people getting it is to keep the hospitals open, just like a supermarket or the energy company to get the power back on in a storm. also the viral load is one component of infectivity, and the vaccine allows earlier decrease of the virus and decrease infectivity of others. so it protects ill or immunocompromised people from infection from their caregivers to some degree. since the hospital people are seeing it face to face all day long when they work, they would be the first to go down, and then who will take care of you. this is part of search and rescue. you can accept but not eat food gifts from residents you are helping. if the power is out and you eat bad food, and you get sick, you cannot help anyone. so vaxed you are less likely to get it, or spread it to others including pts and your family. If you get is less likely to be sick or die. It is new and lots of unknowns so I understand why people are fearful. I felt I had to get it to protect me and my family and to be able to do my job. good night. :)
No offence taken, the respect is mutual.
But here's a question: we need nurses and docs etc -- is it better to lay off the unvaxxed than to keep them?
And what if they had it already? Shouldn't that be considered at least equal to vaxxed?
We can test for antibodies too -- shouldn't we do that as well?
They have been unvaxxed all this time and yet not been a problem.
We have rapid tests, can't we test the unvaxxed hospital staff before they see patience?
And finally.....if we treated the pneumonia instead of leaving patients laying in beds (as that pulmonary nurse said "a horse that lays down stays down") we'd save lives, a lot of lives so if it's about saving lives why aren't we doing that? Why aren't we at least trying Ivermectin like the Indians and Japanese? Why aren't we looking at other treatments?
Politics.
Quote from: Hilltop366 on September 30, 2021, 10:59:40 AMLooks like a typo (space) notify the wrong person, or maybe it didn't answer your question.
Yes, I noticed the space and that doc was notifying the wrong person. ;D
all good points.
we should not fire nurses or docs that do not get vaxed, but it is sad when they die or potentially infect someone else. will a patient family sue the hospital for allowing a provider to work who is at higher risk now that there is a vaccine, (compared to last year) and causes harm to their family (who prob. also chose to not get the vaccine).
having had it is prob. better than the vaccine alone.
antibodies show you have had it or been vaccinated, but do not directly quantitativly correlate with immunity
It is normal to not be vaccinated when there is no vaccine. i got mine the first day it was available, my choice. we are not laying off our employees who choose not to get the vaccine, and anyone who test + is off work for 10 days with or without a vaccine.
the options after exposure is quarantine (off work) or daily testing, we are exposed every hour of our shift so not practical or enjoyable.
so covid pneumonia is really a pneumonitis (inflammation destroying lung function spurred by non living viruses, and not infection by living organisms like strep causing lungs to be damaged by immune systems). antibiotics increase the immune response by breaking up bacteria, so the immune system wins faster before we die). we are still learning, but on the vent we do proning to keep everything from settling to the back and consolidating the lungs. have to put the vented chemically paralyzed pt on their stomachs. we everything for covid we do for pneumonia like pulmonary toilet, and often cover with antibiotics.
most infectious disease docs say that ivermectin does not work, but it needs to be studied and decided one way or another.
we do not practice euthanasia, but in the end we make sure that when there is no hope in our best judgement, we make the person as comfortable and dignified as we can.
the nurse and to a lessor extent the doc shortage, is all the above. money, politics, burnout, most of the nurses we lost are working 45 minutes away with a sign on bonus and twice the pay. we have hired many of the big city nurses as travelers and paid bonuses and twice the pay. In the heat of battle admin *pithed a bunch of them off, and we swapped with Wichita, and we are all paying more. many have returned after 13 weeks of traveling and are back.
and yes politics. remember Biden and Harris both refused the vaccine when it was Trumps vaccine.
Best regards @OlJarhead (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=12463) @Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) and @Magicman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011) and Godspeed to all my brothers and sisters.
Thanks Doc, I was wondering about regular testing of patient facing personnel.
It would be helpful if the individual states would back off on the mandates. Everyone wants to be seen as doing something, helpful or not. Standing between a politician and a TV camera is dangerous. Most of these hospital systems are large private employers with locations in many states. They can establish BFOQ for themselves, I understand they've got plenty of HR personnel. Way too many in some cases.
Digging a little into the recent event in North Carolina at Novant Healthcare with 175 folks losing their job. I pulled out my sharpened Occam's razor. They completed a merger on July 1 with another system. My medical qualification consists of binge watching Scrubs. I know a little about mergers, from when I used to work at a really great company, BellSouth. When they merged with another company let's just say it wasn't a good experience.
I just woke up and having my first cup of coffee. yes we (my doc group/corporation) just merged with a bigger corporation. so we no longer feel like part of a family looking out for each other, and they mandated vaccine. I think everyone should have a choice, but there may be consequences in the world. this is a huge world wide pandemic, that could have been so much worse, and yes, if we knew then what we will know in ten years we could have avoided some mistakes. I am happy to not find 25 replies to my analogy, that was far fetched and meant to be light. there are a lot of ways to do this staffing, and for those who have worked there asses off and risked there own lived and wellbeing and that of their families.. it can be hard to get back out from under that bus. now I have to be to work in 40 minutes after completing all my Ss. my wife and son are working, I hugged my daughter, I will eat at work. night 2 of 5 twelve hour shifts.
Just gotta say... God Bless You Doc Henderson, and all like you.
Maybe this has been discussed but many people that have been vaccinated are getting it. Then there is the boosters that you need to get. How many? They say one now more. WOW.
Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 30, 2021, 08:04:54 PM
Maybe this has been discussed but many people that have been vaccinated are getting it. Then there is the boosters that you need to get. How many? They say one now more. WOW.
It has, the vaccines aren't 100% effective. That's been known ever since the initial testing. Some folks that got the first test shots did catch Covid during the study, but it was a much lower %, and they didn't get as sick. Effectiveness is a little worse against the Delta variant, because it's just more infectious.
What we are seeing (here and in Aussie) is that you are much less likely to catch the virus after immunisation, and even if you do, you are about 10X LESS likely to need hospital level care. And if you do end up in hospital you are much less likely to die. So even partial protection is useful. In the current NZ outbreak only about 4% of the cases were vaccinated, and none of them ended up in hospital.
Delta has messed with vaccination plans for sure. Against the original epidemic models suggested ~75% vaccination would be enough to suppress the virus, and it's spread would gradually stop. Against the Delta it's likely to need more like 90%, either vaccinated or with some natural immunity after recovering from an infection. But even recovering from the virus doesn't make you immune to another infection.
So immunity tends to decrease over time, both after the vaccine OR the disease. Hence the idea of booster shots, and shots for people that have had the infection. Might there be more boosters, or a new vaccine against a new variant in the future? Yes that's possible, but the more people that a resist getting the vaccine, the more likely that is to happen.
Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 30, 2021, 08:04:54 PM
Maybe this has been discussed but many people that have been vaccinated are getting it. Then there is the boosters that you need to get. How many? They say one now more. WOW.
My cousin's wife had a breakthrough case and passed away. Cancer survivor.
I'm reminded of the story of 2 fisherman in Alaska being chased by a Coastal Brown. One grabs his buddy says help me change out of my waders. His buddy says you can't outrun that bear. I Don't need to out run the Bear, just you.
It's for sure some crazy and nasty stuff!!!
Quote from: Ianab on September 30, 2021, 08:41:39 PMEffectiveness is a little worse against the Delta variant, because it's just more infectious.
I was listening to a science show on the radio yesterday that said the delta variant has a 1000 times more viral load that the original making it more likely to cause symptoms and a lot easier to spread.
I had not heard that. the viral load has to do with replication, so it istime dependent. which is why it is good to shut down replication ASAP with your immunity from the disease, or an immunization, or an infusion of a monoclonal antibody. the viral load does affect infectivity and symptoms.
I only listened to part of it in the car so my interpretation my be off a bit. ???
I believe this is the episode if you would like to listen sometime.
https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-51-quirks-and-quarks/clip/15868443-bronze-age-town-destroyed-meteor-global-warming-makes (https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-51-quirks-and-quarks/clip/15868443-bronze-age-town-destroyed-meteor-global-warming-makes)
Quote from: doctorb on September 29, 2021, 10:10:10 PM
Would any non-vaccinated people have strong objections to be shifted to the care of non-vaccinated health care workers?
No objections as far as care,they are not dirty vermin after all but how soon before they are moved into ghettos-for their own protection of course.
Antibody testing is very expensive, who's going to pay for it. Two Doctors and the VA would give me the test, until Rita started crying to our primary Doc. I got tested and it was 11.8 % effective. I would think that people with OTHER immune disorders, diabetes ect, would fair about the same as me. I have had 2 shots of Pifzer vax and my cancer Dr. said to get the 3rd shot. Because I have no immunity from a blood cancer I have to watch extra careful where I go and who comes to the house. I wear a hospital mask that isn't safe enough and Rita is experimenting with making cloth ones to fit my beard so I can go to my cancer center and feel a little saver.
I don't like the word survivor there's no way all the cells are removed, they can come back at some point.
T-Cell cancer treatments are being called the new cancer free procedure, but when you really start questioning your told it's only until your immune system says no.
So to really not get Covid 19 or any other virus you need to watch what you touch and what you breath, and wash your hands, Rita's favorite saying.
Dr. Slomka's son Camille had his heart and liver transplant. started last evening and finished early this morning about a 16 hours surgery. he will be on anti rejection drugs (immunosuppression). any significant infection would kill him at this point. It would a great loss and a waste of a generous donation by another person and family. Camille has had numerous surgeries and near death experiences. He has a 2 year daughter. My first patient last night was in his 80s and traveling with his wife, north to south and passing through our town. was + a few weeks back. got short of breath walking to the hotel. coded but we got him back. had a priest come and he died on the vent a few hours later. Very sad for the wife who is hundreds of miles from home, so no other family could be here. the rest of the night went better. These are the things that make us feel so strong about the vaccine, although I feel everyone should have a choice. you cannot put others at increased risk and I really felt bad for this wife.
That is sad and is a sad truth about this virus. Just surviving the virus isn't always enough. I just got my booster today and I'm happy I did.
I just learned of a lady I know passing from Covid. Maybe 60 or so, no health issues I know of. I guess the last time I saw her was a couple of months ago, there wasn't a thing wrong with her. I don't know for sure but I don't think she was vaccinated. Just very, very sad. I guess I say all of this to make a point. In the midst of the needed conversation about government mandates, lock downs etc and all of the political bantering that goes back and forth, it seems it is forgotten among many that I usually agree with that this is a dangerous disease that is killing people. Not just people that had one foot in the grave, either. This gal that just passed, and another gal that passed last summer that lived just down the road, would still be here and would likely have many years left on this earth if it wasn't for Covid. A gal I went to school with, maybe 42, got it and about didn't make it. It reminds of a guy I knew. He hated seatbelts. Old school. Refused to wear one and thought less of you if you did. Well then he and his wife were in heavy fog on the interstate one morning, ended up in an about 40 car pile up. They got banged up pretty bad. Well all of the sudden he was very pro seat belt. It seems like a lot of that with the Covid situation, too. I don't want my position to be based on the fact that I just haven't had to deal with the issue, like being vehemently anti-vax and then coming down with Covid, and then coming out of the hospital telling everyone to get their vaccine.
In brighter news, Merck (a drug company) is testing a new treatment for Covid which seems promising. But they are only claiming a 50% reduction in hospital admissions / deaths. But that's still good if you end up in the lucky 50%.
Drugmaker Merck says experimental pill cuts Covid-19 hospitalisations and deaths in half | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300421287/drugmaker-merck-says-experimental-pill-cuts-covid19-hospitalisations-and-deaths-in-half)
Interestingly, Merck is the company that makes human grade Ivermectin, and they don't manufacture a vaccine. So they aren't suppressing Ivermectin as a treatment in order to sell more expensive vaccines. If they thought it actually worked they could set up a study like they are doing with this new drug, show it was effective, and easily get it approved for Covid treatment. It's already had the safety testing done, so approval for a new use would be straight forward. And they could sell a billion tablets of stuff, which would make the shareholders very happy.
Instead they have gone through the process of researching a whole new drug, that's actually designed to interfere with the virus replication (at a safe to the patient dose). Slow down the replication of the virus, you don't get as sick, and you buy more time for your immune system to kick in.
Another good point is that it's a tablet that you take as soon as symptoms appear. So if you get diagnosed with Covid, or even suspected Covid, you can be given a handful of pills and sent home to take them. Doesn't need hospital admission like the antibody treatments. OK it's not going to be 100% effective, but at least the Doc will be able to give you something "useful".
The vaccine is still more effective, but there are still those pesky breakthrough cases, so some useful treatment is still going to be useful.
The drug is an anti viral that was developed several years ago as a treatment for the common flu.
Will be interesting to see how it works outside of the testing conditions.
Quote from: barbender on October 01, 2021, 11:58:33 PM
I just learned of a lady I know passing from Covid. Maybe 60 or so, no health issues I know of. I guess the last time I saw her was a couple of months ago, there wasn't a thing wrong with her. I don't know for sure but I don't think she was vaccinated. Just very, very sad. I guess I say all of this to make a point. In the midst of the needed conversation about government mandates, lock downs etc and all of the political bantering that goes back and forth, it seems it is forgotten among many that I usually agree with that this is a dangerous disease that is killing people. Not just people that had one foot in the grave, either. This gal that just passed, and another gal that passed last summer that lived just down the road, would still be here and would likely have many years left on this earth if it wasn't for Covid. A gal I went to school with, maybe 42, got it and about didn't make it. It reminds of a guy I knew. He hated seatbelts. Old school. Refused to wear one and thought less of you if you did. Well then he and his wife were in heavy fog on the interstate one morning, ended up in an about 40 car pile up. They got banged up pretty bad. Well all of the sudden he was very pro seat belt. It seems like a lot of that with the Covid situation, too. I don't want my position to be based on the fact that I just haven't had to deal with the issue, like being vehemently anti-vax and then coming down with Covid, and then coming out of the hospital telling everyone to get their vaccine.
I'm like that old guy, but for me it's different, I just don't think any entity should tell you what you can or can't do given it doesn't effect anyone else. I do wear my seatbelt, and believe in it, every time I strap it up I'm thinking I wanna return home alive again to my life I love. I do not believe they should be mandatory though, like helmets, although I do wear one when quading or when I cycle(rarely lol )
The end of the day it don't really bother me THAT much because...I'm not gonna get a ticket because I'm gonna wear my seatbelt regardless, but the the principle of being forced don't sit well. You may lose some idiots that wouldn't use this stuff if it wasn't enforced but to me that's a trade off that's worth it in the name of true freedom.
The impact to other people is insurance costs.
My guess is that many health insurance premiums are going to increased this year.
Ochsner will make unvaccinated spouses of employees pay 0 per month to remain insured | Health care/Hospitals | nola.com (https://www.nola.com/news/coronavirus/article_655e1d94-2220-11ec-9d79-2f7db348f897.html)
Insurance companies fining $200 per month for unvaccinated spouses.
This is madness.
Barbender's post reminded me of the story of a flood, when the water was up to his waste the guy refused a ride to safety in a canoe saying "God will save me", later when the water was up to the top floor window he refused a ride in a rescue boat saying "God will save me" and finally he is on the roof with the water up to his neck and a helicopter over head but he waves them off saying "God will save me" soon after he drowns and goes to heaven where he asked God " I put my faith in you but yet you let me drown, why have you forsaken me?" God replies " I have not forsaken you I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"
A 70 year old farmer died at home here a couple weeks ago about a week after getting the jab.He had been in our shop a month before to pick up a pump. You just never know do you?
Just to be clear, I am not in any way in favor of vaccine mandates. I guess I'm trying to draw light on the human tendency to downplay the seriousness of an issue, as long as it isn't affecting them.
I understand that from your posts, you are fair minded. This has been on my heart two men I know personally that have died suddenly.
Quote from: Paul_H on October 02, 2021, 10:13:48 AM
A 70 year old farmer died at home here a couple weeks ago about a week after getting the jab.He had been in our shop a month before to pick up a pump. You just never know do you?
Doesn't mean a thing. No one knows what tomorrow will be.
Quote from: beenthere on October 02, 2021, 11:37:57 AM
Doesn't mean a thing. No one knows what tomorrow will be.
The other guy was two hours after the jab but have it your way. :)
Maybe we need to start preparing more doctors for the future as we seem to have another permanent influenza. How far do you take it with the vaccine %? NZ has 90 and that isn't even enough.... So we're just suppose to keep all these restrictions for good? The vaccinated can STILL spread the virus... so does that mean we should also just permanently wear masks forever?
So if the virus is gonna circulate wether we're all vaccinated or not then maybe we should adjust. I don't think we can expect the US or Canada 90% vax rate, so I guess we'll be in restrictions forever. Of course if we did make it to 90, goal posts would be moved again, like NZ.
Quote from: leeroyjd on October 02, 2021, 07:29:38 AM
Ochsner will make unvaccinated spouses of employees pay 0 per month to remain insured | Health care/Hospitals | nola.com (https://www.nola.com/news/coronavirus/article_655e1d94-2220-11ec-9d79-2f7db348f897.html)
Insurance companies fining $200 per month for unvaccinated spouses.
Any companies doing that for the fat diabetics who guzzle Coke and dine at McDs (supersized of course) all week?
When do we the people get to tell others what to eat based on their weight/health and the impact on the system? Obesity is the number 1... 2 killer no? Its for the "greater good" when we talk resources, or is that to much... for now.
Some policies have higher premiums for tobacco users.
Higher premium from the China virus. Gave everyone rabies from our own funding.
Quote from: Dan_Shade on October 02, 2021, 01:01:18 PM
Some policies have higher premiums for tobacco users.
How would they enforce that exactly/know someone was smoking?
They ask (over the phone) but send a person to do a quick medical screening (height/weight/BP/respiration/etc) to your house (been there, done that). As long as that person is not a smoker, they can tell the moment you open your door if you smoke or not! ;)
Quote from: ljohnsaw on October 02, 2021, 04:55:34 PM
They ask (over the phone) but send a person to do a quick medical screening (height/weight/BP/respiration/etc) to your house (been there, done that). As long as that person is not a smoker, they can tell the moment you open your door if you smoke or not! ;)
Maybe for a life insurance policy but not my health insurance, ive never had to deal with a single question for that.
Hell we couldn't even get soda off the food stamp list because it was discrimination. Never mind it has zero nutritional value, rots teeth and health while on the taxpayers tab. So much for the greater good.
Just find the whole argument about non vax straining the system (greater good talk) as a slippery slope when the majority of Americas problem (covid and health system strain) is centered on the simple fact obesity prevails. Easier to take pills (or mandate a vaccine) then it is to get Americans to drop the lbs.
they can tell from hair and blood as well.
Quote from: doc henderson on October 03, 2021, 06:01:41 AM
they can tell from hair and blood as well.
Keep your head shaved and don't smoke for a week or 2? Nicotine only stays in the system a few hours right? Devils advocate here lol
Quote from: repmma on October 03, 2021, 05:01:53 AM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on October 02, 2021, 04:55:34 PM
They ask (over the phone) but send a person to do a quick medical screening (height/weight/BP/respiration/etc) to your house (been there, done that). As long as that person is not a smoker, they can tell the moment you open your door if you smoke or not! ;)
Maybe for a life insurance policy but not my health insurance, ive never had to deal with a single question for that.
Hell we couldn't even get soda off the food stamp list because it was discrimination. Never mind it has zero nutritional value, rots teeth and health while on the taxpayers tab. So much for the greater good.
Just find the whole argument about non vax straining the system (greater good talk) as a slippery slope when the majority of Americas problem (covid and health system strain) is centered on the simple fact obesity prevails. Easier to take pills (or mandate a vaccine) then it is to get Americans to drop the lbs.
I believe that to be our biggest evil, for our healthcare system, obesity. Add sugar as that is what causes most of it in some form or another. Banning sugar is like banning tobacco or alchohol, almost everyone is addicted to one or another is some form. Food companies spend millions figuring out how to make us buy more twinkies! Adding sugar and fat to make something taste good.
Wife and I got our booster of Pfizer on friday at Walmart. She had a pretty bad headache during the night and next day. I had a slight headache during the night and sore arm. My headache was gone when I got up at 7, which is late for me. Arm is still slightly sore to the touch, but not bothering me at all.
Quote from: Stephen1 on October 03, 2021, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: repmma on October 03, 2021, 05:01:53 AM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on October 02, 2021, 04:55:34 PM
They ask (over the phone) but send a person to do a quick medical screening (height/weight/BP/respiration/etc) to your house (been there, done that). As long as that person is not a smoker, they can tell the moment you open your door if you smoke or not! ;)
Maybe for a life insurance policy but not my health insurance, ive never had to deal with a single question for that.
Hell we couldn't even get soda off the food stamp list because it was discrimination. Never mind it has zero nutritional value, rots teeth and health while on the taxpayers tab. So much for the greater good.
Just find the whole argument about non vax straining the system (greater good talk) as a slippery slope when the majority of Americas problem (covid and health system strain) is centered on the simple fact obesity prevails. Easier to take pills (or mandate a vaccine) then it is to get Americans to drop the lbs.
I believe that to be our biggest evil, for our healthcare system, obesity. Add sugar as that is what causes most of it in some form or another. Banning sugar is like banning tobacco or alchohol, almost everyone is addicted to one or another is some form. Food companies spend millions figuring out how to make us buy more twinkies! Adding sugar and fat to make something taste good.
They might as well just stock grocery store shelves with isles and isles of bags of sugar, and salt. That’s what the food all is now. All the same substance in different slop form and different dye colors
QuoteNZ has 90 and that isn't even enough...
NZ is Aiming for 90% of eligible folks, which works out at about 75% of the total population. Currently it's only 45% fully vaccinated, and 75% partly. That isn't enough, it merely slows the spread a bit.
Currently places like Denmark and Ireland are up to those sorts of numbers (90% of eligible / ~75% of total pop), have lifted most restrictions. Although they are still recording some cases, most of them are "mild", not needing hospital level care, because they are either breakthrough cases or children. That's where NZ now hopes to be by Christmas.
A big incentive to get vaccinated will be the ability to travel. Your Govt may not be able to put a blanket mandate on Citizens getting vaccinated, and ours has said they wont. But if you want to travel to Australia from NZ or the US, or into NZ from any other place, you will need proof of vaccination to get a visa. Air New Zealand and Qantas (main Aussie airline) wont even let on an international flight from next month without a vaccination, even if the destination country doesn't care. Their aeroplanes, their rules.
Thank you for the facts Ian.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SenRonJohnson/status/1443777704994672644?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1443777704994672644%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F2021%2F10%2Fboom-sen-ron-johnson-drops-truth-bomb-senate-floor-63-uk-delta-deaths-last-7-5-months-fully-vaccinated-video%2F
no thanks. you can have your jabs ;) I will go with my natural immunity...
Website not allowed/covid-19/jj-vaccine-possibly-linked-two-more-serious-health-conditions-eu-regulator-finds
and that one is pretty scary.
Someone's either very bad at maths and has slipped a couple of decimal points, or is straight out lying.
QuoteOut of more than 51,000 Covid deaths in England between January and July 2021, only 256 occurred after two doses.
They were mostly people at very high risk from illness from Covid-19
Covid deaths rare among fully vaccinated - ONS - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58545548)
That makes the actual % of fully vaccinated deaths about 0.6% of the total. There were about 600 deaths after only one shot, or too recent after a 2nd, but even then it only brings it up to a bit over 1% of the deaths with partial vaccination.
There is a reason that Twitter might not be the most reliable news source.
it's direct from the UK government vs the BBC
The link I posted IS directly to the BBC web page. Says 256 vaccinated deaths out of 51,000. Thats about 0.6 %, not 63 %
And it says that the majority of those break thru cases that lead to death are among at risk folks who have underlying conditions, which makes it even more significant.
Here are lots of good facts out of the state of Pennsylvania. Vaccines Work: 97% of COVID Deaths, 95% of Hospitalizations and 94% of Cases are Among Unvaccinated Pennsylvanians (https://www.media.pa.gov/pages/health-details.aspx?newsid=1595)
Quote from: Ianab on October 03, 2021, 06:55:49 PM
QuoteNZ has 90 and that isn’t even enough…
NZ is Aiming for 90% of eligible folks, which works out at about 75% of the total population. Currently it's only 45% fully vaccinated, and 75% partly. That isn't enough, it merely slows the spread a bit.destination country doesn't care. Their aeroplanes, their rules.
Yeah, I knew 90% wasn't vaccinated in NZ. Just another example of mixing up the message. :D
We are over 80% fully vaccinated in NB and a lot of cases from mainly unvaccinated who don't follow guidelines in large gatherings. Those in hospital right now are not fully vaccinated, but yet 'fix me, I'm sick'. Not that it isn't your right to refuse a vaccine, but is being real sick nice? Not everyone not taking a vax will get real sick if they get COVID, but how do you know? Lots who did get it bad, and asked themselves why they didn't get vaxed days before they died.
I got my Pfizer booster shot at Walmart yesterday!
No sideaffects whatsoever!
I don't think the "alternate facts" thing is helping anyone, I trust the sources that are informing us all along sometimes even just boring facts instead of sources that put out "click bait" as facts.
Well the so called experts sure don't know all the facts.
sadly politics are trying to use the facts they want to an advantage. there remain unknowns, and we may all change recommendations as more info comes to light. It is hard for people (including docs) to navigate the bull and the politics.
Quote from: doc henderson on October 05, 2021, 04:37:19 AM
It is hard for people (including docs) to navigate the bull and the politics.
It's way worse than hard. But it's easy if you just follow the money.
Now time to make REAL money... Pill to treat Covid-19 cuts the risk of death by half, says Merck, which will seek its emergency authorization (https://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusCirclejerk/comments/pz9hts/now_time_to_make_real_money_pill_to_treat_covid19/)
"They took their previous product called ivermectin (which had won a nobel prize for medicine) which cost about $12 per treatment and called it dangerous. Then they turn around and make a pill almost identical to ivermectin and call it a miracle drug and charge $700 per treatment."
there have been no studies showing a benefit with ivermectin and I am not sure what the Merck pill is similar to. I was told more like Tamiflu, which is a antiviral pill.
Yes, I agree that Ivermectin may or may not be similar to the new pill called Molnupiravir. It is just another question that is hard to answer these days. Here is another piece of information about Ivermectin.
Flawed ivermectin preprint highlights challenges of COVID drug studies (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w)
And here is more info from another link.
How does this treatment (Molnupiravir) relate to ivermectin?
This is simple: it doesn't. But it's worth taking a look at what data are available for each. Ivermectin, ironically, is another Merck drug.
Early in the pandemic, there were studies in cell cultures that showed that ivermectin and another drug, hydroxychloroquine, might be worth testing as Covid-19 treatments. Multiple studies have failed to show a benefit for hydroxychloroquine, but the picture is murkier for ivermectin. Still, one of the largest studies showing a benefit was withdrawn due to widespread flaws.
There is a study conducted in Brazil, the Together Trial, that tested a three-day course of ivermectin compared to placebo and showed there was no benefit on hospitalizations and ER visits. That would make it unlikely that ivermectin, an old antiparasitic, would have efficacy approaching this newer antiviral.
Drug companies are unlikely to conduct large, rigorous studies of older generic medicines — although Novartis did begin, then stop, a hydroxychloroquine study. But right now it is unlikely that ivermectin is the oral Covid medicine the world needs. Molnupiravir, on the other hand, might be.
IMO, vaccines are like anything else in life - a trade-off. One of my favorite books is Thomas Sowell's A Conflict of Visions. In that book and in other writings of his, he talks often that there are almost no "pure solutions" to anything. Vaccines or other treatments are not perfect solutions. There are potential side effects, there are instances where a vaccine or treatment do nothing for some individuals, etc... Personally I look at it like what gives me the best chance for a good outcome? For me, I choose vaccines. I choose to wear a seatbelt. I choose to wear chainsaw chaps and safety glasses. None will eliminate all chance of a bad outcome, but I like the odds better than other alternatives I have.
In most cases seat belts will help in an accident. But there are instances where they can make matters worse. Years ago, my FIL escaped being run over by a semi trailer turning in his VW beetle by getting out quickly. He says a seatbelt may have prevented his escape in that case.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 04, 2021, 03:35:57 PM
Quote from: Ianab on October 03, 2021, 06:55:49 PM
QuoteNZ has 90 and that isn't even enough...
NZ is Aiming for 90% of eligible folks, which works out at about 75% of the total population. Currently it's only 45% fully vaccinated, and 75% partly. That isn't enough, it merely slows the spread a bit.destination country doesn't care. Their aeroplanes, their rules.
Yeah, I knew 90% wasn't vaccinated in NZ. Just another example of mixing up the message. :D
We are over 80% fully vaccinated in NB and a lot of cases from mainly unvaccinated who don't follow guidelines in large gatherings. Those in hospital right now are not fully vaccinated, but yet 'fix me, I'm sick'. Not that it isn't your right to refuse a vaccine, but is being real sick nice? Not everyone not taking a vax will get real sick if they get COVID, but how do you know? Lots who did get it bad, and asked themselves why they didn't get vaxed days before they died.
And there even more who got Covid and have said no big deal.
Quote from: doc henderson on October 05, 2021, 07:36:46 AM
there have been no studies showing a benefit with ivermectin and I am not sure what the Merck pill is similar to. I was told more like Tamiflu, which is a antiviral pill.
Sadly, this is patently false. I love you man, but there are many studies showing the benefit of Ivermectin re: Covid-19
The Research Is Clear: Ivermectin Is a Safe, Effective Treatment for COVID, so Why Isn?t It Being Used? (https://noqreport.com/2021/10/04/the-research-is-clear-ivermectin-is-a-safe-effective-treatment-for-covid-so-why-isnt-it-being-used/?utm_source=econ)
Setting aside the site itself, go down near the bottom and see links to articles doing just that.
Now the real question: will this post be deleted as well? I've had at least 2 nuked. Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked....
I am not aware of any of your posts being nuked Doctor OlJarhead.
There was one that posted this link
Horowitz: The country with the best data shows infection rates higher among the vaccinated - TheBlaze (https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-the-country-with-the-best-data-shows-infection-rates-higher-among-the-vaccinated)
I don't know what happened to it Old jar head
Quote from: doc henderson on October 05, 2021, 04:37:19 AM
sadly politics are trying to use the facts they want to an advantage. there remain unknowns, and we may all change recommendations as more info comes to light. It is hard for people (including docs) to navigate the bull and the politics.
Thanks for what you do @doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) and thanks for your informed input. I am on the fence for the vaccine as I have had the flu shot every year with no issues but there is just too much misinformation on both sides right now for me to make a decision. I might have to make one soon as my liberal employer might make it mandatory (which activates my internal push back mechanism).
Quote from: OlJarhead on October 05, 2021, 10:02:51 AM
Quote from: doc henderson on October 05, 2021, 07:36:46 AM
there have been no studies showing a benefit with ivermectin and I am not sure what the Merck pill is similar to. I was told more like Tamiflu, which is a antiviral pill.
Sadly, this is patently false. I love you man, but there are many studies showing the benefit of Ivermectin re: Covid-19
The Research Is Clear: Ivermectin Is a Safe, Effective Treatment for COVID, so Why Isn?t It Being Used? (https://noqreport.com/2021/10/04/the-research-is-clear-ivermectin-is-a-safe-effective-treatment-for-covid-so-why-isnt-it-being-used/?utm_source=econ)
Setting aside the site itself, go down near the bottom and see links to articles doing just that.
Now the real question: will this post be deleted as well? I've had at least 2 nuked. Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked....
I am curious as to which studies you are referring to showing the benefits. While I am certainly no doctor, I have read quite a bit on Ivermectin studies. Most of the references people point me to end up being preprint studies without peer review like the one in Egypt by Dr Ahmed Elgazzar which was subsequently pulled due unspecified ethical concerns including plagiarism, cloned records and other suspicious raw data.
I find often when I ask where they get the information when someone is suggesting it is effective, it ends up being second accounts, or they give very vague I saw it online or Facebook, or old info such as the the Australian study by Leon Caly which to my limited no-medical trained mind did reduce replication of the virus invitro (test tube) but was at levels far beyond those typically used for humans and only indicated further study was recommended.
I'm looking for sold evidence to refer people I care about to who are expressing interest in using Ivermectin, but there is so much bad or old info flying around which is poorly sourced. For example I still run into reference for support to the meta analysis by University of Liverpool which showed it worked, now appears to have been rejected by Andrew Hill, who lead it once they removed trails with indications or risks for fraud and bias. In fact some researchers are suggesting a level of data inconsistencies that meta analysis without data confirmation my be limited in value for the time being.
Other meta analysis such as Ivermectin for the Treatment of Coronavirus Disease 2019: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials | Clinical Infectious Diseases | Oxford Academic (https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab591/6310839) found little support for it being effective.
I understand there are several current studies including ACTIV-6, and even one by our local university of Minnesota and many others so maybe some better answers will be forth coming, but as far as sold peer reviewed, double blind, random treatment and control group studies. I haven't been able to source an conclusive evidence that stands up to review and shows Ivermectin is a effective treatment at the current time for COVID.
I'm concerned for a few people I know who are interested in using Ivermectin sourced online and/or via animal veterinary resources and worry about how much and the type they may take.
I of course defer to Doc's much greater medical knowledge and am eager to hear his thoughts on this as it doesn't currently seem like a good idea for people to be using it to treat covid and even more so as a preventive.
Sincerely,
Still unclear in MN :-\
A friend of mine had Covid last winter. He couldn't get over the chest congestion and cough. He went several months with doctor visits and medications but couldn't get rid of the cough. Someone suggested Ivermectin. He went to Tractor Supply and got a tube of it. Followed the directions and took some. Within a few days his chest was cleared up and the cough was gone. The reason the medical people don't want to recommend it is because you can get it for less than $10 at a farm supply. The crooks in the medical field aren't getting their cut.
Followed the directions??
Is he a horse?
Ivermectin, ?Wonder drug? from Japan: the human use perspective (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043740/)
Nay! not just for horses,works for humans but sometimes ridiculed by jackasses. :P
QuoteThere are few drugs that can seriously lay claim to the title of 'Wonder drug', penicillin and aspirin being two that have perhaps had greatest beneficial impact on the health and wellbeing of Mankind. But ivermectin can also be considered alongside those worthy contenders, based on its versatility, safety and the beneficial impact that it has had, and continues to have, worldwide—especially on hundreds of millions of the world's poorest people.
Thanks guys. Who knows what happened. No worries ;)
COVID Outbreak Sparked by Fully Vaccinated Patient Challenges Vaccine-Induced Herd Immunity Theory (https://noqreport.com/2021/10/05/covid-outbreak-sparked-by-fully-vaccinated-patient-challenges-vaccine-induced-herd-immunity-theory/)
Scary stuff. You all know where I stand I think but do you want me to post this stuff? I got's milling to do! lol but I do have stuff I can share for those interested.
Eurosurveillance | Nosocomial outbreak caused by the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a highly vaccinated population, Israel, July 2021 (https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.39.2100822)
Meanwhile...I'll post some of these....
Quote from: beav on October 05, 2021, 04:14:56 PMFollowed the directions?? Is he a horse?
The directions tell you how much to take per the weight.
Quote from: Lostinmn on October 05, 2021, 12:44:46 PM
Quote from: OlJarhead on October 05, 2021, 10:02:51 AM
Quote from: doc henderson on October 05, 2021, 07:36:46 AM
there have been no studies showing a benefit with ivermectin and I am not sure what the Merck pill is similar to. I was told more like Tamiflu, which is a antiviral pill.
Sadly, this is patently false. I love you man, but there are many studies showing the benefit of Ivermectin re: Covid-19
The Research Is Clear: Ivermectin Is a Safe, Effective Treatment for COVID, so Why Isn?t It Being Used? (https://noqreport.com/2021/10/04/the-research-is-clear-ivermectin-is-a-safe-effective-treatment-for-covid-so-why-isnt-it-being-used/?utm_source=econ)
Setting aside the site itself, go down near the bottom and see links to articles doing just that.
Now the real question: will this post be deleted as well? I've had at least 2 nuked. Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked....
I am curious as to which studies you are referring to showing the benefits. While I am certainly no doctor, I have read quite a bit on Ivermectin studies. Most of the references people point me to end up being preprint studies without peer review like the one in Egypt by Dr Ahmed Elgazzar which was subsequently pulled due unspecified ethical concerns including plagiarism, cloned records and other suspicious raw data.
I find often when I ask where they get the information when someone is suggesting it is effective, it ends up being second accounts, or they give very vague I saw it online or Facebook, or old info such as the the Australian study by Leon Caly which to my limited no-medical trained mind did reduce replication of the virus invitro (test tube) but was at levels far beyond those typically used for humans and only indicated further study was recommended.
I'm looking for sold evidence to refer people I care about to who are expressing interest in using Ivermectin, but there is so much bad or old info flying around which is poorly sourced. For example I still run into reference for support to the meta analysis by University of Liverpool which showed it worked, now appears to have been rejected by Andrew Hill, who lead it once they removed trails with indications or risks for fraud and bias. In fact some researchers are suggesting a level of data inconsistencies that meta analysis without data confirmation my be limited in value for the time being.
Other meta analysis such as Ivermectin for the Treatment of Coronavirus Disease 2019: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials | Clinical Infectious Diseases | Oxford Academic (https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab591/6310839) found little support for it being effective.
I understand there are several current studies including ACTIV-6, and even one by our local university of Minnesota and many others so maybe some better answers will be forth coming, but as far as sold peer reviewed, double blind, random treatment and control group studies. I haven't been able to source an conclusive evidence that stands up to review and shows Ivermectin is a effective treatment at the current time for COVID.
I'm concerned for a few people I know who are interested in using Ivermectin sourced online and/or via animal veterinary resources and worry about how much and the type they may take.
I of course defer to Doc's much greater medical knowledge and am eager to hear his thoughts on this as it doesn't currently seem like a good idea for people to be using it to treat covid and even more so as a preventive.
Sincerely,
Still unclear in MN :-\
Did you follow the link? Go to the bottom?
Did you know Merk is producing a NEW Covid-19 drug....that is sounding more and more like a new version of Ivermectin?
It's all real but here's the thing, if the CDC and FDA admit Ivermectin or Hydroxychloriquine works as a therapeutic than the emergency use order for the VAX becomes null and void....and you couldn't use the non-approved vax's -- and even Pfiser's new one may not be in production yet -- something going on there.
So now we can go to the County Agent for medical advise?
Quote from: Texas Ranger on October 05, 2021, 05:39:00 PM
So now we can go to the County Agent for medical advise?
I sure wouldn't. But I'd go to a doctor and if I wasn't happy (as in, they say something like "take Tylenol and go to emerg if you stop breathing" but don't prescribe anything for the pneumonia) I'd get a second opinion. Just like we've always done! Lucky for me, the 2nd opinion had be better in two days. Thank god.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on October 05, 2021, 05:39:00 PM
So now we can go to the County Agent for medical advise?
County Health Department, around here they do restaurant inspections and tracking social disease outbreaks. ie, don't eat there, don't, well just don't...
Quote from: OlJarhead on October 05, 2021, 10:02:51 AMNow the real question: will this post be deleted as well? I've had at least 2 nuked. Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked.
If you noticed the title of this thread, it's FACTS.
Many of the pages you have linked to were remarkably free of facts. There are other threads active where those "alternative theories" can be discussed.
P.S. I wasn't the one that pruned the thread, but it's likely to happen again.
so i have asked my infectious disease doc, and he says no evidence for hydroxychloroquine. I do not or do not know any doc in the field that makes any money on medications we prescribe. the drug companies used to bring us lunch to listen, but there was no guarantee we would prescribe their drug. Usually we did not cause the new drugs were too expensive, and if just as effective, use the old stuff. If i really thought it worked, i would tell you all. the stories of "i was sick, but i took this med, and was better in two days", are called testimonials and are not used in medicine. when i was a resident, a drug rep took us out for a steak dinner, and had us "help with advertising" by drawing a picture with crayons, on paper and turning it in. we all got a check for $100. the next day a teaching attending who heard about it, walked around clinic and called us all whores! you guys think your training was bad. he was an ass. anyway, now it is illegal for any doc to make a profit from prescribing drugs. we do not give a [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better]. we use the best drug for the job. sometimes if covered by insurance, we may use a more expensive combination drug, for an elderly patient to increase compliance. we do not make any money off the drugs. if the tractor supply ivermectin worked, we would recommend it. it came out that some docs were hording some for themselves, and that was deemed unethical, like insider trading. aspirin was used for pain and fever, and it was terrible for that. but a good antiplatelet drug. you had to take 24 pills a day to achieve anti inflammatory levels, and the side effects were awful. the baby aspin, is no longer used for babies as it caused ryes syndrome and liver failure if used with certain viruses. it is rare that a drug, will have many uses unrelated to each other. the vit. C gurus promoting it for covid, are the same as promote it for everything else under the sun. the more it helps fight a virus, the more inflamation, and that is what makes you feel bad. but people say they feel better sooner. anyway, if ivermectin is shown to work, I will let you all know. there is not much harm in taking it, unless you avoid other treatments shown to work, and die from covid. god bless.
i will find out when i can what is in the merck pill.
I believe Ivermectin is a protease inhibitor, I don't think the Merck pill is in that class. However the daily pill that Pfizer is testing is also a protease inhibitor, which sure makes one turn their head.
As far as facts go, there isn't a single source of the truth here, this isn't settled science, so if an article names it's sources and they can be verified then the article is being factual. One can dispute the findings, but that doesn't make it fictional.
Big tech is now censoring anything that doesn't go with the official narrative of the moment. That isn't our job and it is something I will fight against. I think everyone here knows where I stand when it comes to oppressing anyone, be it I agree or completely disagree with them.
Information came out today that Vermont has the highest jab rate in the US, and is spiking in cases, same scenario as Israel.
Something is very, very, wrong.
Quote from: Southside on October 05, 2021, 08:22:49 PM
Something is very, very, wrong.
I would not say that as I believe we are getting closer to answers but what I would say is that vaccines are not going to be the only answer. I think treatments are going to play a more important role in the future. I remember that we were always told in the past that we have had limited success with vaccines for viruses and that may prove to be still true. The problem is that viruses mutate (learn how to be successful) and vaccines are always one step behind.
Here is but one good analysis of where we stand with treatments.
Scientists hope they're closing in on a cure for COVID-19 (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/covid-treatments-molnupiravir-plitidepsin)
I agree 100% which doc henderson. Docs do not profit from prescribing meds.
Those that continue to tout the "suppressed" data on the effectiveness of Invermectin and other "cures" have no answer for the FACT that unvaccinated people are hospitalized and die at a much higher rate than vaccinated people. There's all this back and forth about acquired "natural" immunity versus that obtained via the vaccine. The issue is the risk of hospitalization and death from the infection in the unvaccinated, not whether a person survives Covid and has better immunity (temporarily) that than supplied by the vaccine. As I have posted before, the number of people who are unvaccinated and have acquired Covid a second time is quite real. Just ask Lamar Jackson of the Baltimore Ravens.
So, as a doc, I would ask that you weigh the facts about hospitalization and death from Covid in the unvaccinated population versus the conflicted and politicized sparring about acquired immunity, people reportedly dying from the vaccine, opinions of how Invermectin is "just like" Merck's future antiviral pill, and other such distractions. Look at your risk, not at some web site telling you what you already believe....that you're being mislead, guided down some corporate profit path, and being lied to every second. If you do not accept that the people dying and being hospitalized from Covid are, for the vast majority, unvaccinated, then nothing anyone can say or show you can change your attitude toward the pandemic and the positive effects of the vaccine.it ain't perfect, that's for sure, but it has saved countless lives.
I agree with Gary that the vaccines will not be the only answer. We have no vaccines for HIV/AIDS. We found good treatments. The same could happen here. We are still in the middle of this very dynamic infection. But, please listen to the reports about who gets sick, who gets hospitalized, and who dies from Covid now, and as important, who doesn't. Scrutinize and analyze all you want. That's a good thing. But none of the arguments I had read posted here can overshadow the issue that the vaccines are protective, though not preventative. But their results are quite important and markedly impressive versus the unvaccinated population.
Here is a good comparison of treatments. Ivermectin or Molnupiravir (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKa3EZqofNo)
Here is the open access paper referenced in the above video. Drugs Shown to Inhibit SARS-CoV-2 in COVID-19 Disease: Comparative Basic and Clinical Pharmacology of Molnupiravir and Ivermectin (https://austinpublishinggroup.com/pharmacology-therapeutics/fulltext/ajpt-v9-id1149.pdf)
Quote from: Southside on October 05, 2021, 08:22:49 PMInformation came out today that Vermont has the highest jab rate in the US, and is spiking in cases, same scenario as Israel.
That is true. But there are still about 100k people unvaccinated in the state. And it is that population that accounts for most of the hospitalizations; The report I linked below says 69% are unvaxxed. In the northern counties (where I live) the percent of unvaxxed is higher than the state as a whole and we account for a disproportionate hospitalizations and deaths.
While our case count has jumped, hospitalizations per capita are the lowest in the nation. 37 Covid patients in the hospital (13 of which are in ICU) from a population of 550,000.
DFR October 5 -- Web Version (vermont.gov) (https://dfr.vermont.gov/sites/finreg/files/doc_library/dfr-covid19-modeling-100521.pdf)
Quote from: Ianab on October 05, 2021, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: OlJarhead on October 05, 2021, 10:02:51 AMNow the real question: will this post be deleted as well? I've had at least 2 nuked. Seems when I post articles showing the vax failures or ways to treat covid that are working (but not being promoted by the main stream propaganda, er media) they get nuked.
If you noticed the title of this thread, it's FACTS.
Many of the pages you have linked to were remarkably free of facts. There are other threads active where those "alternative theories" can be discussed.
P.S. I wasn't the one that pruned the thread, but it's likely to happen again.
This is the very definition of politics. I've posted a lot of 'facts' they just aren't yours....there is an old expression: you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
In fact, one poster admitted to not even watching the nurse testify despite trying to dispute what was in it. I'm sure most haven't bothered to check the source of what I posting. They see Gateway Pundit or NGO or whatever and move on....failing to see the underlying study which is factual.
Things like Israel being over 85% vaxxed but having a massive covid spike of the vaxxed -- nothing to see here.
The UK's own government posting data that shows massive spike of the vaxxed (but we watch BBC instead of the actual government stats)....
India's smashing of the covid crisis with the use of Ivermectin (and Doxycycline (sp), Hydroxychloriquine, Zinc and vitamins).....and then Merck's own new drug which is suspiciously similar in what it does (actually sorta like exactly) to Ivermectin which they invented and got a Nobel Prize for becauase of it's effectiveness in Humans in treating parasites, not to mention it's safe use for over 40 years and insanely cheap cost) but is something like 700x more expensive and use touted as a new way to treat covid....while Ivermectin is doing just that.
Hydroxychloriquine? Yes it works well too -- but not in someone who's already gotten rid of the viral load two weeks later and is suffering from pneumonia.
I could go on but I've learned one thing: those who want to believe something else, won't bother to explore opposing points of view, nor opposing facts.
https://player.fm/series/the-joeh-pags-show/dr-richard-urso-interview
For those willing to listen to a doctor who has a differing opinion (of which there are many many of them)....
I do not have any authority regarding anyone's post. I did not watch the nurse testimony as it was describing as him reporting doctors killing patients if I recall. I have enough on my plate, and do not need to hear accusations like that. If true they will go to prison. it sounded like (by the description) his interpretation. I could not find the video so maybe that is what you are talking about. even if a doc decides to fill ivermectin scripts, if the dx. is covid, most pharmacies will not fill it as it is not indicated for that purpose. my wife is seeing more with a dx. of worms and she can fill it. there are books on the cure for all cancers, and the cure for all diseases. AL natural stuff, and benefited the author, and may have prevented people from seeking well documented treatment. I had a patient that had cancer and thought that bowel massage and hypercolonics would cure him. he and his wife and adult son were at a natural therapist home living in a camper in her yard. He did not want traditional medicine and was DNR. but when he died on her table the family panicked and thought she might get in trouble and called and ambulance to bring him to the hospital, where we pronounced him dead. It was his choice, but leave me out of it. He was not recoverable since the drive was so covered with trees, the ambulance could not get up the drive.
I clicked the link, and it says not available
Dr Richard Urso Interview The Joe Pags Show podcast (https://player.fm/series/the-joe-pags-show/dr-richard-urso-interview)
Try that one? Not sure why it failed.
Former Vice-President WHO European Advisory Group: "Unvaccinated people are not dangerous; vaccinated people are dangerous - Should be Quarantined" (Video) (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/former-vice-president-european-advisory-group-vaccinated-people-put-quarantine-isolated-society/)
Professor Perrone (https://theconversation.com/profiles/christian-perronne-775874) is one of France's most highly rated experts in infectious diseases and long-time vaccine policy chief. He is being censored and criticized despite his knowledge in the field of viral diseases and vaccines.
I mean, the guy is the very definition of an expert.....
Meanwhile when it comes to VAERS -- seems this nurse has something to say:
EXCLUSIVE: COVID Whistleblower Claims the VAERS Reporting Database Tracking Vaccine Complications is WRONG and Undercounting by a Factor of 100! (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/covid-whistleblower-wu-flu-fraud-vaers-reporting-database-tracking-vaccine-complications-wrong-factor-100/)
and even vaers, broken or not, admits the vaccine is killing people...70 per day.
According to VAERS Website: There Were 3,296 COVID Vaccine Deaths in US Since July 24 - Or an Average of 70 Deaths per Day (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/09/us-averaging-70-deaths-per-day-due-covid-vaccine-since-july-24th-3296-covid-total-vaccine-deaths-recorded-vaers-website/)
so it is a system that casts a big net. they are not saying the reactions and deaths were caused by the vaccine. these are the number of reports by anyone from doctors to patients that experienced anything in proximity to a vaccine, and they believe might be related. if someone reports a sore arm for a day, it is listed in the number of side effects. If a 100 year old dies 30 days after a covid vaccine and it is reported, it is listed as a death. there is no cause and effect evaluation. if anyone reports it, it is listed. if a bunch of people start reporting that their hair turned green after the vaccine it may be investigated. It is part of the CDC and FDA. not everything is reported. doc are required to report certain events.
I went to both links, and it is true that not everyone reports and event (estimated 100X, or only 1 in 100 people use the system). just because they report it, does not make it a side effect of the vaccine. you can report a stubbed toe, and it is listed as a "reported" side effect to the covid vaccine. If you die after getting the vaccine and it is reported, it is listed as a death associated with but not known as caused by the vaccine. the blood clot issues with stroke and heart attack, and the neuro stuff is very prevalent with the disease, so may be also associated with the vaccine and this is all being studies. I have seen a lot of this a few weeks after the disease. the question might be what incidence does the disease cause it relative to the vaccine. we do not know. the author of the article that says there have been 70 deaths a day due to the vaccine is lying, misleading, or stupid. there have been 70 deaths a day reported in association with the vaccine to this wide open system, there is no cause established. the chance of a 100 year old dying this year is close to 100%. if they die after the vaccine and it is reported, it is counted as a death.
I tried to link the VAERS info on interpreting the data. the article then misrepresent then as reporting deaths caused by the vaccine, and you are cautioned to not draw that conclusion on the actual VAERS site.
VAERS - About Us (hhs.gov) (https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html)
this can get peoples attention if things are getting repeatedly reported. just like in a study, if there is overwhelming good data on a drug, it may stop the study as the control group is not getting the good drug. or if outcomes are bad with a drug compared to placebo, they may stop due to ethical concerns. this is why it is hard to approve drugs for kids, as most people do not volunteer their 2 year old to take an unknown drug, and rightly so.
These are actual quotes from scientists that are employed at Pfizer. There are more as well in the original video but it's interesting coming direct from these scientists.
Quote
- Nick Karl, Pfizer Scientist: "When somebody is naturally immune -- like they got COVID -- they probably have more antibodies against the virus...When you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus...So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the [COVID] vaccination."
- Chris Croce, Pfizer Senior Associate Scientist: "You're protected for longer" if you have natural COVID antibodies compared to the COVID vaccine.
- Croce: "I work for an evil corporation...Our organization is run on COVID money."
- Rahul Khandke, Pfizer Scientist: "If you have [COVID] antibodies built up, you should be able to prove that you have those built up."
That is the reason why many are willing to stay as healthy as possible to fight the inevitable infection as opposed to trusting huge corporations to look out for them. The trust has been broken -once bitten,twice shy.
I have enjoyed this thread since Doc henderson started it. Just simple rubber meets the road insights and advice from a guy that's in the hospital dealing with stuff on the daily. I think many of you are derailing it from the original intent. There's already a thread in the restricted topics section where everyone is doing their document dumps and such, I for one would prefer it stayed there🤷♂️
The 60 year old gal I know that just passed away was sharing much of the same information on FB- don't get the vaccine, just build up your immune system, govt. conspiracy etc. Then she went quiet for a bit, and then when she was on FB again it was writing from a hospital bed unfortunately. Oh gosh this is so much worse than I imagined, get a vaccine. Then a few days later she died😥 And I've seen this more than once, people that are stridently anti-vaccine getting Covid and having a sudden change of heart. I try to ask myself sometimes, what would my opinion of a situation be if I was the one suffering from it. What would my position on gun laws be, if my kids got shot up in a school? Just for the record, I don't believe my views would change on that, but I try to ask myself what would I do, if it was me dealing with this, not just someone else's problem? My parents are still unvaccinated, because they are afraid of side effects that the vaccine could cause. I'm trying to help them weigh the risks and benefits. They're both early 60's with health issues. I think they ought to get vaccinated, but I'm not pushing hard on them. They're adults🤷♂️ All of that said, one place I like to come to read some straight dope on Covid is right here and some of you are kind of wrecking the ride for me😊
X2
Quote from: barbender on October 06, 2021, 12:06:19 PM
I have enjoyed this thread since Doc henderson started it. Just simple rubber meets the road insights and advice from a guy that's in the hospital dealing with stuff on the daily. I think many of you are derailing it from the original intent. There's already a thread in the restricted topics section where everyone is doing their document dumps and such, I for one would prefer it stayed there🤷♂️
The 60 year old gal I know that just passed away was sharing much of the same information on FB- don't get the vaccine, just build up your immune system, govt. conspiracy etc. Then she went quiet for a bit, and then when she was on FB again it was writing from a hospital bed unfortunately. Oh gosh this is so much worse than I imagined, get a vaccine. Then a few days later she died😥 And I've seen this more than once, people that are stridently anti-vaccine getting Covid and having a sudden change of heart. I try to ask myself sometimes, what would my opinion of a situation be if I was the one suffering from it. What would my position on gun laws be, if my kids got shot up in a school? Just for the record, I don't believe my views would change on that, but I try to ask myself what would I do, if it was me dealing with this, not just someone else's problem? My parents are still unvaccinated, because they are afraid of side effects that the vaccine could cause. I'm trying to help them weigh the risks and benefits. They're both early 60's with health issues. I think they ought to get vaccinated, but I'm not pushing hard on them. They're adults🤷♂️ All of that said, one place I like to come to read some straight dope on Covid is right here and some of you are kind of wrecking the ride for me😊
I would rather only read Forestry related stuff on this forum; the core tenants of this site are entirely different. Having that said, at this point, I'm strongly anti-injection of an EUA, but people want to discuss it, so it is what it is. That's all I see people doing, discussing a topic.
Here's another gal who posted her saga to Facebook. She was forced to get the vaccine, or alter her life. I guess as I've read(since vaxxed can still catch, spread, and die), her death must of been less painful, right?!
Washington woman with Oregon ties dies from rare J&J vaccine complication
Washington woman with Oregon ties dies from rare J&J vaccine complication | General | kptv.com (https://www.kptv.com/general/washington-woman-with-oregon-ties-dies-from-rare-j-j-vaccine-complication/article_fcbcd66d-0c35-5f49-b84c-12e013094aee.html)
"According to her obituary (https://obits.oregonlive.com/us/obituaries/oregon/name/jessica-wilson-obituary?pid=200278331), she was an Oregon State graduate who was "vehemently opposed" to taking the vaccine, but eventually took it so she could continue volunteering at her children's school. "
Differing sides of the story can cause discomfort. Many wanted to isolate from the war in Europe in 1939-1940 but it was coming one way or another. Fore warned is fore armed and ignorance is bliss. As a business owner we've had to face uncertain times and disturbing news and make the best decisions we can from the info we collect. Part of growing up is to be able to hear many sides of an issue and make our own decisions and own them once made.
Many people I knew and worked with in the logging industry were killed or worse but we keep going. There are many positive and negative stories of the virus and the gene therapy but fear is not a great source of wisdom in making decisions.
I know many that have done ok with the gene therapy and also know some that died very soon after taking it. I know many around us that have survived covid and are doing well and one that died(comorbidities) and in each case it was there own personal decision.
Folks that desire to see harm come to those that make different choices than they are despicable human beings and they know it.
i agree paul. I do not want to be responsible for someone getting a vaccine and dying, but i also do not want to see them die of the disease. Do I ever wake up and hope that everyone I saw in the heat of battle the night before is doing ok? you bet. cannot be a doctor if you cannot live with doing the best you can.
All good points. As for vaers, it's not different than saying someone who died of a gunshot wound was a covid death.
If you choose to say the 14,000+ deaths reported in vaers is not necessarily indicative of the vaccine (a 100 year old who dies after getting the vax may have died anyway -- to paraphrase) than you cannot also claim the 700k reported deaths of covid are just that without at least acknowledging that many of them are not in fact, covid deaths at all (gun shot wounds, drug OD's, 100 year olds with the flu -- where was the flu anyway?)....
So it's a double edged sword.
However, that last doc I posted speaks of the spike protein in covid-19 and the spike protein in the vax (same one) and makes a lot of sense. Many doctors, in fact, who are on the 'front lines' treating covid patients are using the meds I've discussed. Are they all wrong? The Indians?
I just think it's important that we look at both sides....and as for the vax and vaers, it's the worst vax EVER reported to the vaers system for side affects and deaths from what I can tell. IN fact one doctor I was listening to claimed it had more deaths reported to it than any other vax combined in the system.
Something is amiss and we'd be fools to ignore it. At least that's my thought.
I actually think it is good to hear facts from both sides. The facts about this virus are changing daily and even depending on where you live. I have talked to some area nurses and it seems what gets recorded may depend on who the doctor is. Deaths from covid, with covid, and from vaccine side effects are not always perfectly recorded. Effectiveness and problems with the vaccine are also changing daily. Good to hear all sides and do further research on your own. If you only want one side sites like Facebook and Twitter may be a good option. Doc has done a good job keeping us informed about what he is encountering but It has gotten to a point where politics is definitely a part of this discussion. Also spend some time investigating the money trail associated with this pandemic and how it affects the actual facts released. In 2 years we will have a better idea of what was fact or fiction and that can swing in both directions. Talk to your doctor when it comes to decisions about the vaccine as he knows your medical history.
Woman in End Stage Renal Failure Denied Life-Saving Transplant Because She's Unvaccinated (https://noqreport.com/2021/10/06/woman-in-end-stage-renal-failure-denied-life-saving-transplant-because-shes-unvaccinated/)
Meanwhile we'll let the unvaxxed die in the name of saving lives?
This is criminal.
If she gets the kidney, she will be on immunosuppressant drugs and at high risk of covid, so get the vaccine and have immunity, then the high risk kidney transplant in the era of covid. some deaths are people who die of something else and happened to have covid, but many are lungs full of fluid, and for sure covid pneumonitis. we often treat for secondary pneumonia (bacterial) in the setting of covid, but antibiotics do not help the lung infection (pneumonitis) from covid. she is on dialysis. do you want to give someone's kidney to someone who is going to die from covid. You also have to pass all kinds of tests. you will not get the kidney if you use drugs or alcohol to excess, or if you have significant psychiatric problems. been that way for ever. you have to be able to follow instructions and be responsible to get someone elses kidney. i can report today that I have a headache and got the vaccine on dec. 16th 2020, and it will count as a poss. covid reaction/side effect in that system.
Quote from: OlJarhead on October 06, 2021, 01:43:46 PM
However, that last doc I posted speaks of the spike protein in covid-19 and the spike protein in the vax (same one) and makes a lot of sense. Many doctors, in fact, who are on the 'front lines' treating covid patients are using the meds I've discussed. Are they all wrong? The Indians?
I just think it's important that we look at both sides....and as for the vax and vaers, it's the worst vax EVER reported to the vaers system for side affects and deaths from what I can tell. IN fact one doctor I was listening to claimed it had more deaths reported to it than any other vax combined in the system.
Something is amiss and we'd be fools to ignore it. At least that's my thought.
That doc you posted speaks nonsense when he claims there is "the spike protein in the vax (same one)" and sorry but when I read that claim I dismissed all you have claimed. I then realized there were no "facts" to be found in your posts, only wild claims and opinions.
I fully agree that this pandemic is spiraling out of control because of mishandling of the effort to make this virus go away by the political dunces in power, but it should not be required by the good doc's that voluntarily contribute their time and expertise to refuting every wild opinion anyone can find. So yes, I also agree with barbender and others who wish this fact finding post go back to what it was intended to discover and leave out the wild opinions, no matter how good the "expert" you discover is qualified to spout his nonsense.
When I self medicate it usually involves a couple of IPAs, perhaps a single malt, etc. If some one has a link to getting that covered under Part D then I'm all eyes and ears.
About the vaers reports.
Given the normal number of deaths each week in the US, if you vaccinated 150 million of them, 25 to 30 thousand would be expected to die over the next week. The reporting system means that if someone has a heart attack in the week after getting the vaccine, it gets reported simply because there might somehow be a link. So the reported deaths aren't necessarily extra ones. But they get reported and checked on, in case some unexpected pattern shows up.
If no one was reported dead in the week after getting the shots, THAT would be suspicious. The number also seems low, as statistically many more people probably have died given the number of shots.
As for it being the most reports for any vaccine. When was the last time so many people got vaccinated in such a short time? It's never happened before.
Just the Facts
I'm all for hearing facts as presented by both sides. What I don't like is long winded and unverifiable information that I find myself scroll, scroll, scrolling through to get to something substantive. I have friends that send me this stuff every day, I told them to find a new hobby.
I suspect many facts are yet to be found out.
If the facts are going to be discounted as opinion then just the facts doesn't add up.
These threads should be combined if we care about facts.
I read the article about the renal failure patient. she is not on dialysis yet. I assumed that when they said failure. she must have poor functioning kidneys and will either need a kidney, or hemo or peritoneal dialysis. It is not convenient to go 3 times a week to hook to a machine for 3 hours, or fill you abdomen with fluid to drain later and replace. so unless I am missing something, she will not die without the kidney. it has always been difficult to get a kidney. you have to show that you will take medicine and show up for appointments.
I have had headaches since my second shot but I was told the only way to report them was to use that NY passport app and I won't use any tracking app from the government. My doctor has it in my file that I only allow him share my medical files with a list of on file doctors in the agreement we have. He did a bunch of routine bloodwork along with extras and all that came up was higher than normal bilirubin and vitamin D levels since my last bloodwork. With no way to report problems anonymously I am sure many are under reported by people like me that do not trust the government with medical records. I am hoping the vaccine will wear off soon and headaches will go away. Definitely not getting a booster.
Quote from: Mooseherder on October 06, 2021, 03:05:42 PM
I suspect many facts are yet to be found out.
If the facts are going to be discounted as opinion then just the facts doesn't add up.
These threads should be combined if we care about facts.
Agreed, we don't know all the facts, there's gaps in our knowledge, and sometimes the facts (just like the virus) have changed.
But we shouldn't fill that lack of knowledge by passing off wild speculation, random foo and actual lies as facts. There are other threads for that. I called out a post the other day claiming that 63% of the recent Covid deaths in the UK were vaccinated, therefore the vaccine was bad. When you looked up the actual numbers it was 0.6% of the deaths had been vaccinated. Which indicates the exact opposite. The person posting that here genuinely believed it to be true, but I really question the motives of the web page they linked to. They had certainly put zero effort into verifying the info they were posting.
QuoteFolks that desire to see harm come to those that make different choices than they are despicable human beings and they know it.
I don't want to see anyone come to harm. Although I have a lot less sympathy for the ones knowingly spreading disinformation to boost their web page traffic / radio show listeners / political chances.
Quote from: Ianab on October 06, 2021, 04:55:39 PM
Quote from: Mooseherder on October 06, 2021, 03:05:42 PMAgreed, we don't know all the facts, there's gaps in our knowledge, and sometimes the facts (just like the virus) have changed.
But we shouldn't fill that lack of knowledge by passing off wild speculation, random foo and actual lies as facts. There are other threads for that. I called out a post the other day claiming that 63% of the recent Covid deaths in the UK were vaccinated, therefore the vaccine was bad. When you looked up the actual numbers it was 0.6% of the deaths had been vaccinated. Which indicates the exact opposite. The person posting that here genuinely believed it to be true, but I really question the motives of the web page they linked to. They had certainly put zero effort into verifying the info they were posting
0.6% sounds way high. Best I can find from a reliable source here in Georgia through July 27, 2021 is 0.12% tested positive, 0.00285% required hospitalization, 0.00058% died among the fully vaccinated. The author states that is likely an undercount, I don't think it's off by that many orders of magnitude.
Delta flips the script, 01Aug2021 - by Amber Schmidtke, PhD - The COVID Digest (https://amberschmidtkephd.substack.com/p/delta-flips-the-script-01aug2021)
Here is the latest update from a local hospital.
(https://www.pennstatehealth.org/sites/default/files/inline-images/HEA-15547-20-134218-COVID-19-Update-chart--w_Hampden--10.06.21.jpg)
Wife and I got our 3rd (booster) jab this afternoon. I don't have the expertise or desire to do my own investigating so I choose to listen to medical people that I personally know such as my family doctor and a friends son that is head of pharmacology at our local hospital, they recommend me getting it. While I may not personally know our kind docs on here I am confident that they are as truthful with us as possible.
Brian, I have seen similiar #s north of the border.
What bothers me is unknow vacination status.
Can someone explain how it is unknown?
I was thinking here in Ontario we have quite a mass exodus to the southern states in the winter. Most of the "snow birds" were vacinated down south. when they got back here, our goverment has not recognized thier vacinations in the counts. I figured it was this group being called unknown, it would coincide with the 'vacine' wearing off.
now I am really curious about the "unknown"
I read from 1 epdomoligist talking about the rules for vaccine trials. "the vaccine is considered guilty until proven innocence"
If we have reported deaths after taking the vaccine. How long after does it not count against the Vaccine?
I have a rough time hearing take the vaccine because 1 death is too many from covid.
Isn't 1 death from the vaccine too many also?
If we could prevents all deaths, we would all live forever. :) the thought is to reduce morbidity and mortality. If we knew who was going to die, we could make and ethical argument, and give it to those people. We do have a profile of those at risk and promote them getting the vaccine, they qualify for the monoclonal. we need to get the antiviral meds started sooner. I sure some could have a reaction to the vaccine and they may not been one that would have died from the disease. the hope and belief is we are reducing the numbers of deaths and long term problems.
Quote from: Claybraker on October 06, 2021, 05:51:06 PM0.6% sounds way high. Best I can find from a reliable source here in Georgia through July 27, 2021 is 0.12% tested positive, 0.00285% required hospitalization, 0.00058% died among the fully vaccinated. The author states that is likely an undercount, I don't think it's off by that many orders of magnitude.
Are those numbers a % of the total vaccinated population? If so they are probably accurate and actually suggest a similar thing. The UK numbers are a % of the deaths. 51,000 dead, but only ~250 of those had been vaccinated. So if you guess 30 million vaccinated, and 250 still died, then it's probably a similar %? Several zeros in front of the % anyway. If the vaccine did nothing, then you might expect the death numbers to more line up with the vaccination rates. If 50% of the dead had been vaccinated, and 50% of the population also, that might suggest the vaccine wasn't doing any good, and that's what the linked web page was claiming. Except it wasn't true.
We know the vaccine isn't 100% effective, especially against the Delta strain, and vaccinated people have caught the virus here in NZ. But none of them have died, or even become critically sick so far. That doesn't mean some unlucky individuals wont in the future, but it seems very rare. Numbers here in NZ have suggested ~4% of the cases were fully vaccinated, 19% partly, and the rest had nothing. So again a very low % of the vaccinated population are getting the breakthrough cases.
But the main point was that the stated "facts" were out by two orders of magnitude, and suggested that being vaccinated could even make you more likely to die, rather than maybe 100X less likely. We can debate the exact numbers, because they are still being recorded. and if it turns out to be 50X or 200X, that's what it is. But the numbers aren't going to be out by orders of magnitude.
Quote from: Stephen1 on October 06, 2021, 07:13:10 PMIsn't 1 death from the vaccine too many also?
ALL vaccines carry a slight risk of side effects and even death. Pretty much every medical procedure has some small but measurable risk involved. Heck people have OD'd on Paracetamol before.
But Dr's assess those risks every day. You can have this done to fix (XYZ), and there is only 1 chance in 5 million that you will die from the operation / medication / vaccine. Yeah, OK, those are pretty good odds. But people DO occasionally die during what's considered a routine operation, fortunately not very often, but it's happened more than once.
So when a new medicine is approved, it's not a matter of it being absolutely 100% safe. (Read the potential side effects of most medications). It's if the med is of MUCH greater overall benefit. Currently chances of dying from Covid is about 1 in 100. Chances of dying from the vaccine, 1 in 5 million doses. (local numbers). That's the odds I based my decision on anyway.
Once again the circle is complete. What you just stated, combined with the complete lack of time examined results are exactly why jab mandates are so strongly resisted.
Remember DDT and abestos were considered safe at first too, until they weren't.
I just read that scientists are finding the new merck pill for covid being rushed through FDA approval has serious safety concerns about causing cancer and birth defects
Ian you mentioned reading the list of potential side effects for medicine. Is said side effect literature available for the vaccines being used?
Quote from: newoodguy78 on October 06, 2021, 09:03:44 PM
Ian you mentioned reading the list of potential side effects for medicine. Is said side effect literature available for the vaccines being used?
Here is the FDA's EUA fact sheet. Page 4 talks about possible side effects.
https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download
Your Dr should have that sheet, and be able to give you a copy of it to read yourself. It's also includes how to report any side effects, and what the dangerous ones to watch for are.
The other vaccines will have some similar document available.
Edited to add, it's also got the list of Ingredients. So no more of the "They wont even tell us what's in it". The long named "lipids" are basically oil/fat molecules that coat the mRNA particles so they don't break down before they can reach body cells and do their job. The last items are basically what's in a "saline" solution (salts and sugar). Beyond that, I don't have a degree in biochemistry, and wouldn't know a "(4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate)" from a blob of bacon grease. I do suspect they would look pretty similar though.
Quote
WHAT ARE THE INGREDIENTS IN THE VACCINE?
The vaccine includes the following ingredients: mRNA, lipids ((4-
hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene
glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine,
and cholesterol), potassium chloride, monobasic potassium phosphate, sodium
chloride, dibasic sodium phosphate dihydrate, and sucrose.
Quote from: 21incher on October 06, 2021, 08:56:45 PM
I just read that scientists are finding the new merck pill for covid being rushed through FDA approval has serious safety concerns about causing cancer and birth defects
This is exactly the type of information that is based on speculation and rumor so is not necessary to post here. I do know what this speculation is based on and what was "read" is not right.
1. First being "rushed through FDA approval" is a good thing for something that is needed right now as long as the safety precautions are not bypassed and there is no evidence of that bypass happening.
2. We do not and will not know about any safety concerns about use of the drug until the data is released and that has not happened yet.
3. There is some speculation about certain classes of people being excluded from the trials that indicated there is some concern with those specific classes of people using the drug but I guarantee that if the drug gets approval, those same classes of people will not be included in the EUA. Specifically the two classes of people I believe are pregnant women (or rather persons if you are woke) and women that are breast feeding. So unless you fall in one of those two classes, your safety will be included in the studies reported to the FDA.
So enough of the rumors and speculation please.
Different strokes for different folks on drinking the Kool-Aid. Not this kid. Didn't your mother tell you not to believe everything you hear 😂. Just watch all the commercials on tv and radio adds of class action lawsuits from different stuff from years ago that was so supposed to be so safe and so great. Now they are forcing you or boxing you in to drink the Kool-Aid. They say you are safe when you get the jab so why are they so worried about the people that don't get the jab 🙄🙄. Come on! The people in Vermont that were vaccinated and died had other factors so those numbers are not accurate! No! What about the other way of people that didn't get vaccinated and died! List it as a Covid death for sure!
Merck?s COVID-19 pill could carry serious safety concerns, scientists warn | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/health/merck-pill-oral-covid-treatment).
I know many these days no longer want to follow science that disagrees with profits.
Quote from: Walnut Beast on October 06, 2021, 09:53:32 PMThe people in Vermont
Doesn't Vermont have the lowest Covid Deaths per population in the US?
Wouldn't it be better to figure out what they are actually doing right? Maybe it's geographic, maybe it's social behaviour, I don't know. But that's a more productive line of inquiry.
I am going to say no.
Expressed in percentages, 76% of Vermont Covid-19 fatalities were breakthrough cases. As of Tuesday, 88 percent of all eligible Vermonters (age 12 and over) had been vaccinated with at least one shot.
https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september-covid-19-deaths-are-vaxxed-breakthroughs/ (https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september-covid-19-deaths-are-vaxxed-breakthroughs/)
Same scenario as Israel.
Quote from: 21incher on October 06, 2021, 10:02:47 PMI know many these days no longer want to follow science that disagrees with profits.
I don't like to read "click bait" articles that contain words like "could potentially" and "theoretically" so it's not necessary to repost them here. Those words do not indicate science nor facts.
Gary, that's about three times you've told someone not to post information in this thread. You have no authority here so knock it off.
A reminder we debate the point and not the person.
Carry on.
Quote from: Walnut Beast on October 06, 2021, 09:53:32 PM
Just watch all the commercials on tv and radio adds of class action lawsuits from different stuff from years ago that was so supposed to be so safe and so great.
There are lots of lawyers with adds on US television to entice you to spend money even when many circumstances there is no case. Sure, a few are case worthy. But I have seen a pile of lawyer adds where the 'hog wash alert' goes off. ;)
Quote from: Southside on October 06, 2021, 11:00:28 PM
I am going to say no.
Expressed in percentages, 76% of Vermont Covid-19 fatalities were breakthrough cases. As of Tuesday, 88 percent of all eligible Vermonters (age 12 and over) had been vaccinated with at least one shot.
https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september-covid-19-deaths-are-vaxxed-breakthroughs/ (https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september-covid-19-deaths-are-vaxxed-breakthroughs/)
Same scenario as Israel.
The full story is, not fully vaccinated, elderly and they had some of the earliest shots, which means the antibody count has dropped. We have known for some time the efficacy of this vaccination falls over time. That info has never been withheld.
Vermont is the green line toward the bottom. The other states are in grey.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/58760/VT_Covid_Death_rate_10-4-21.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633607155)
Quote from: Gary_C on October 07, 2021, 04:26:56 AM
Quote from: 21incher on October 06, 2021, 10:02:47 PMI know many these days no longer want to follow science that disagrees with profits.
I don't like to read "click bait" articles that contain words like "could potentially" and "theoretically" so it's not necessary to repost them here. Those words do not indicate science nor facts.
Gary I actually hold a patent on a piece of medical equipment used to control body temperature during heart surgery and do know the process and timetable of FDA approval our team went through. The reason is to protect patients and eliminate liability by turning over every stone. All findings and documents are included in the approval. The timeframe cannot be shortened. We have seen to shorten the timeline the CDC has changed the rules and that's one of the reason 2 heads of the FDA resigned a couple weeks ago over. I also see not all original documents are included in the Pfizer approval and immunity from lawsuits is still in place. The pharmaceuticals are the biggest contributors to the democratic candidates and money is definitely at play here. Also why are we forced to be vaccinated and millions of illegals are not? Money is made off each citizen vaccinated but not off liiegals.
This study is presented via a summary of its results, and investigates the risk of late heart disease and cardiac events up to a year after Covid infection, which occurred in both vaccinated and non-vaccinated patients.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-07/heart-damage-racks-covid-survivors-a-year-after-infection-study (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-07/heart-damage-racks-covid-survivors-a-year-after-infection-study)
Quote from: doctorb on October 07, 2021, 08:16:21 AM
This study is presented via a summary of its results, and investigates the risk of late heart disease and cardiac events up to a year after Covid infection, which occurred in both vaccinated and non-vaccinated patients.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-07/heart-damage-racks-covid-survivors-a-year-after-infection-study (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-07/heart-damage-racks-covid-survivors-a-year-after-infection-study)
Thanks for that.
I've heard and read that this is a problem with the disease and the vax because of the spike protien.
Isn't it great that Fauci and his folks were funding the research to make this type of virus infect humans? Thanks.
Gary, check yourself. You were asked politely by Roxie, now you are being told directly by me, don't make it strike three on telling members what and where to post.
I sent the offending post, and thanks Southside!
I wonder how many members are muttering "enough already"?
Quote from: Texas Ranger on October 07, 2021, 08:54:39 AM
I wonder how many members are muttering "enough already"?
Agreed. This was supposed to be a 'facts only' thread without debate, just useful information for those trying to know what is going on. That slowly crept into a debate about which 'facts' are really facts and which 'facts' are not acceptable. I thought discussion that would stay in the restricted zone.
Quote from: OlJarhead on October 07, 2021, 08:24:38 AMThanks for that.
I've heard and read that this is a problem with the disease and the vax because of the spike protien.
Isn't it great that Fauci and his folks were funding the research to make this type of virus infect humans? Thanks.
I see no where saying the vaccine is as responsible as having been infected by COVID-19 nor is there a spike protein in the vaccine. Your body (cells) makes such a protein to cause an immune response. This protein in not in the vaccine. The cells get rid of the instructions once this response takes place.
[source is CDC]
Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 07, 2021, 09:32:55 AM
Quote from: OlJarhead on October 07, 2021, 08:24:38 AMThanks for that.
I've heard and read that this is a problem with the disease and the vax because of the spike protien.
Isn't it great that Fauci and his folks were funding the research to make this type of virus infect humans? Thanks.
I see no where saying the vaccine is as responsible as having been infected by COVID-19 nor is there a spike protein in the vaccine. Your body (cells) makes such a protein to cause an immune response. This protein in not in the vaccine. The cells get rid of the instructions once this response takes place.
[source is CDC]
Hmmmm I stand corrected, a little search does seem to suggest the spike protein is generated by the body. Perhaps I will check on this more but I need to do some milling ;)
The problem with facts is that people tend to believe what they believe and their 'facts' may not jive with what another thinks of as 'facts' and to add to that, 'facts' change with more time and research.
At one time SCOTUS claimed it was a 'fact' that a certain group of people were not human...later they reversed that decision (thank god -- and a good reminder that SCOTUS and facts are not always right)....
Bottom line, you may not like my facts, and I may not like yours but if we do more research when someone challenges us, we may learn there is truth in both of them ;)
Peace and love!
In response to Texas Ranger and Old Greenhorn: Whose facts? Can you go back and try to sort out whose factual? The goal now is to maintain our civility. Forum rules apply and feel free to scroll past those you find un-factual.
Ok guys and gals, we are all friend here. I have not delved into the data for Vermont. It is funny cause I think that Maine next door has a poor vax. rate. so in theory you have to look at the "big" picture. It looks like they included people with one shot, and you are not considered fully vaccinated until 2 weeks after the second shot in 2 shot regimen. so it sounds as though they are including anyone with a shot to be a breakthrough case even though the vax is not yet up to speed (body producing immunity as a result of the vaccine). this is why we use premade antibodies for people at risk, early in the disease (10 days after onset of symptoms). so in a theoretical state we will call Chicken, USA, where 100% of residents are fully vaccinated, then by definition, all deaths from covid will be breakthrough cases, what ever the number. you would have to compare that to the number who would have died if not vaccinated. maybe 10 die despite the vax, but 100 would have died if no residents were vaccinated.
we also know now that the immunity lasts longer with a bigger gap between shots. so we have a dilemma, do we give them 3 weeks apart to get people fully vaccinated sooner, or wait 3 months so the shot will last say a year instead of 6 months. If there was a limited supply we would go to that, but in addition to saving lives, the goal is to keep hospitals functional. so there is motivation to give them ASAP, and other reasons it may be good to spread them apart. We are given the data in the prelim research, so the single shot gave a lower % efficacy, but if they studied it with 2 shots, it may have been the same as the 2 shot regimens.
so the other ethical debate is, should we do 10 years of studies and in the meantime we do not use the monoclonal, vaccine, or antivirals? It is a world wide pandemic. we have lost 700K Americans. we cannot go back and see how many would have died with no therapy. There are those who may think that the vaccine kills more people than the disease. I am not one of them. I could be wrong, but i do not think so. So yes, we got an emergency use authorization and sped things up in an effort to save lives. did we rush or ram it through, yes by the traditional standards. even in pediatric cancer, we will use unproved treatment with consent, if there are no other viable options. and we hope for improvement, but also get information. It is said there is no cure for rabies, but a few have survived, using cooling of the patient and immune globulin (antibody). they had nothing to loose and the girl is alive with children with a few disabilities.
Drug companies are huge global corporations, and have done some bad things. but for each money making drug, there are 10, 20 or a hundred that they invest money and time on, that turned out to be not efficacious. the huge machine that is there human assets were able to follow processes developed for other vaccines, and quickly come up with an option. even if it took 10 years to approve, many drugs will have rare side effects no one knows about until it is used in a large number of people. so we may still not know till it had widespread use.
Every very potent drug that works, has potentially sever side effects. are natural therapies safe? yes, especially if they do not work. Does vit. C help in the immune process, yes. do most of us have enough to have immunity? yes. do super high doses make it work better? not that we can see. Is there any harm in taking extra? prob. not. So supplements are considered a food and not regulated like a drug. If they were, there would be fines and jail time for the promoters. they are basically snake oil sales people. the only harm is if you cannot afford them and you skimp on food and housing to fund there use, and or have a serious illness with a good therapeutic that you ignore thinking the vitamin from walmart will take care of it. Some say that cancer treatment is poison. It is, and the art is to kill all the cancer cells, and minimize damage to the good ones. It is a personal choice. any drug around for a while will be researched, and changes may be made to increase the safety profile. yes the new drug will have a patent and cost a bunch of money. then the company can be financially and HR ready for the next big thing. I am sure they hire ruthless CEOs that keep the company afloat. they have teams of lawyers to fight lawsuits. There are many examples of energy companies, doctors and others that get in a bind, and commit fraud or other crimes to keep their boat afloat or get greedy. overall the folks that work for these companies are good people like us. the electric company is being sued in California for the wildfires. I say to them, pull out of California and they can try to survive with no electricity. It is easy to criticize big corporations, but none of us want to be without them.
I could live without Facebook. I do order stuff from amazon, especially in light of the past 2 years. the world has gone crazy. uptick in crime and psychiatric issues. 4 of my providers out of 10 has needed time off for family crisis in the past year. Godspeed all.
Quote from: OlJarhead on October 07, 2021, 09:43:14 AM'facts' change with more time and research.
That's how science works. Every scientist I have put trust in over the years have stated that very fact. Even folks that are behind the scientific process and give lectures world wide, but not scientists themselves, will state this. :)
Although mRNA vaccines are new in the sense that we have never used them in such a grand scale before, they have been studied for 30 years. They are not a new invention. ;) Lots of people out there only giving half the story and our brains are great at filling in the gaps when it is orated or written in certain ways. Believe me when I tell you their are folks that know this and there are books written about this for study. The first time I saw such a book, was in an office on a shelf, as thick as a Webster's dictionary, pages as thin as those in a bible. :D
My wife and I went and got our 3rd phizer booster shot yesterday at our local health dept. Other than a sore arm when I'd roll over on it it I'd never know I'd had it.
on a bright note, this is what we do well, and sort of encompasses what we are talking about. early on transplant was considered unethical and a sin against nature. Dr. S son 30 year old, 1 week post heart and liver transplant. has walked 100 yards, is shown taking a walk outside. he has lived in quarantine in the hospital or the past 3 months awaiting a donor. Dr. S and his wife have kept the 2 year old daughter during that time to minimize the possibility of infection.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/05826A72-95D9-4834-959F-7FD629EF63C9.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1633615143)
Oh! I love that bright note! Thank you! ♥️
Are the "facts" defined as only being the official narrative? The one that can't keep it's own narrative message straight?
Have you seen the recent "movies" put out by the White House? The one where Biden got his booster and yesterday where he, Yellen, and bankers were discussing the debt ceiling? They are literally being filmed on a movie set with a B grade mock-up of the Rose Garden in the background. I say B grade because yesterday there were spring flowers growing behind Biden.
Facts and narrative are not the same, and there is nothing wrong with questioning credibility.
Glad to see that photo Doc, oh and Maine and Vermont are as next door to each other as Kansas and South Dakota are. ;D
He is a great doc, and takes good care of his family. He is from Poland originally, and loves and appreciates this country and the opportunities it affords. WV the booster cam about from research showing longer immunity if the shots are spaced out, the second (done too soon), gets immunity for the short term. We are all still learning. I feel like the number of reads and responses show this thread to be valuable to this community, and thanks to all the admins that have worked to keep it going in the general section and not restricted.
I remember driving from Albany to Vermont, and to Maine all in about 5 hours. move_it they are in the same region and seemed to me to have similar populations/people. :)
The study that I linked to regarding heart disease and Covid does not evaluate vaccination versus non-vaccination. I believe the reason that seemingly important distinction was left out is because this is a large database study from a hospital organization. There is no way within their records to account for patients that received their vaccination outside of their system (like via a state or county program). So people in their data bank may not have a record of receiving the vaccine, but may actually be vaccinated. That incomplete data would muddy any comparison. This explanation is my opinion, and not stated within the study itself.
Oh boy, to say someone from New York is the same as from Maine, well that would open a can of worms. :D
Quote from: Southside on October 07, 2021, 11:23:57 AM
Oh boy, to say someone from New York is the same as from Maine, well that would open a can of worms. :D
I would say Maine, Vermont, and NY are more alike than any of those are with New Hampshire. If the northern counties in VT could become part of NH, a majority would in a heartbeat. VT and NH are nearly identical on the map (although inverted), but couldn't be more different by any other measure. But in recent years, NH has begun to slide downhill. They'll have income and sales tax before too long, I think.
I lived in "upstate" NY, and visited Vt and Ma. and the people I met were similar in the latter two, I have never had a problem opening up a can of worms, however, as you know. I still have great friends in NY. I did not know that Vt. was so vaccinated, and that Ma is not as was mentioned here on the forum.
our covid hospital numbers are dropping, as has been the case elsewhere, and the mean age is upper 40s, compared to last year, with a higher age. Many of the elderly have died, or been vaccinated or never leave the house. who know how many have died from untreated heart disease or cancer undiagnosed. big uptick in psyc and violent deaths.
Quote from: Ianab on October 06, 2021, 07:48:20 PM
Quote from: Claybraker on October 06, 2021, 05:51:06 PM0.6% sounds way high. Best I can find from a reliable source here in Georgia through July 27, 2021 is 0.12% tested positive, 0.00285% required hospitalization, 0.00058% died among the fully vaccinated. The author states that is likely an undercount, I don't think it's off by that many orders of magnitude.
Are those numbers a % of the total vaccinated population? If so they are probably accurate and actually suggest a similar thing. The UK numbers are a % of the deaths. 51,000 dead, but only ~250 of those had been vaccinated. So if you guess 30 million vaccinated, and 250 still died, then it's probably a similar %? Several zeros in front of the % anyway. If the vaccine did nothing, then you might expect the death numbers to more line up with the vaccination rates. If 50% of the dead had been vaccinated, and 50% of the population also, that might suggest the vaccine wasn't doing any good, and that's what the linked web page was claiming. Except it wasn't true.
We know the vaccine isn't 100% effective, especially against the Delta strain, and vaccinated people have caught the virus here in NZ. But none of them have died, or even become critically sick so far. That doesn't mean some unlucky individuals wont in the future, but it seems very rare. Numbers here in NZ have suggested ~4% of the cases were fully vaccinated, 19% partly, and the rest had nothing. So again a very low % of the vaccinated population are getting the breakthrough cases.
But the main point was that the stated "facts" were out by two orders of magnitude, and suggested that being vaccinated could even make you more likely to die, rather than maybe 100X less likely. We can debate the exact numbers, because they are still being recorded. and if it turns out to be 50X or 200X, that's what it is. But the numbers aren't going to be out by orders of magnitude.
Yes. Readers Digest condensed version is 24 deaths out of 4.1 million fully vaccinated. Fully vaccinated is defined as at least 2 weeks after receiving the 2nd Mrna or the J&J. That was through July. Sources I follow expect that number to climb, hence the push for boosters. When I got vaxxed in April they told us then a booster was being looked into. That narrative hasn't changed, Delta with an R0 7 has changed some of the urgency.
1
Quote from: Southside on October 07, 2021, 10:22:28 AM
Are the "facts" defined as only being the official narrative? The one that can't keep it's own narrative message straight?
Have you seen the recent "movies" put out by the White House? The one where Biden got his booster and yesterday where he, Yellen, and bankers were discussing the debt ceiling? They are literally being filmed on a movie set with a B grade mock-up of the Rose Garden in the background. I say B grade because yesterday there were spring flowers growing behind Biden.
Facts and narrative are not the same, and there is nothing wrong with questioning credibility.
I did not see that but read the room is setup with a big teleprompter that doesn't use mirrors so it can't be seen in the videos. The biggest response I did see on social media was why did they pull the plug after 2 minutes and not wait the 15 minutes your supposed to and explain some of the actual info about the booster in that time period. I will go back and look for it.
Interesting read on Merck pill being developed:
Drug launched at Emory reduces virus that causes COVID-19 to undetectable levels | Emory University | Atlanta, GA (https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/03/coronavirus_DRIVE_molnupiravir/index.html)
i would say the facts and people in office have little to nothing to do with each other.
A new booster vaccine being developed here in NZ is currently up to the animal trials stage It's formulated to be a booster to give better immunity specifically against the Delta variant. Uses a different mechanism to the mRNA and other vaccines.
Still needs to be tested on humans if it's proved to cure the virus in mice (without killing them), so it's probably 12 months away from being deployed, assuming it works and is safe. But if it offers more protection against Delta, that might mean it's possible to suppress it before it mutates further. But vaccines are always a catch up game, the virus has to be known before you can develop a cure or treatment.
Covid-19: Kiwi-made Delta vaccine in early US trial | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300424063/covid19-kiwimade-delta-vaccine-in-early-us-trial)
But that's an example of the research that's going on (often behind the scenes) in labs all over the world. But all those new ideas need testing for safety and effectiveness (which some wont pass), and that takes time.
An early Aus / NZ vaccine was abandoned, not because it didn't work, but because it also created an antibody for an HIV infection. Not an actual infection, but it showed on tests as HIV, because part of the vaccines protein string was the same. It was considered negative enough to scrap that formula because it would have made legit HIV tests useless.
But don't be surprised if an updated booster vaccine, better tuned to the current virus variants appears next year. Might not be this specific booster shot, but I'm fairly sure there will be one.
Fact- New York Times retracts published numbers of children hospitalized with Covid.
New York Times Retracts Massive Exaggeration of Children Hospitalized by COVID-19 (https://www.yahoo.com/news/york-times-retracts-massive-exaggeration-163906675.html)
How does Merck's Molnupiravir differ from Ivermectin? (health-desk.org) (https://health-desk.org/articles/how-does-merck-s-molnupiravir-differ-from-ivermectin)
This page is interesting.
Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries | The Economist (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker)
It compares the reported Covid deaths in countries with the normally expected deaths since the pandemic started.
Cause of death can be hard to establish, but number of deaths is usually a pretty accurate count.
Just wanted to share with you all: the method of injection may induce a rare side effect or eliminate it 100% from the list. This is an intramuscular vaccine.
John gets 'fact checked' - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXcddiS32s0)
Well we just got a call our son and his wife have Covid. He had it in the spring, recovered then both He and his wife got the vaccines this summer. Now they are both in quarantine with the 3 grand kids. Immunity from contracting it and vaccines they received did nothing.
This morning I had a 6 month follow up with my doctor and we spoke about the booster. He recommended I skip it with all the problems I had with the original and said it is basically useless for someone in good health that is vaccinated. It offers no additional protection from the new varieties and I still have immunity from the original vaccine. Looks like if they just keep giving boosters of the same vaccine this pandemic will never end.
well not so fast. they will hoprfully recover. so the disease and the vaccine may still protect them form dying and or having long term effects. i hope so anyway. Delta is more infectious so we are seeing breakthrough cases, but less likely to be severe. hard to know. if you die of a breakthrough case, we will all potentially say, should have got the booster. side effect from the booster, and we will say too soon and massive immune overdrive. so do what your heart tells you and live with the consequenses. I hope you all do well. no one knows the answer for sure.
I got the Moderna vaccination. I will be getting a booster shot. The way I understand it, I can get either the Moderna or the Pfizer booster. Do I flip a coin or would one be better than the other?
moderna was able to produce a better immune responce, but now I think they cut the dose in half to compensate. so either one is ok, and hard to know anything for sure.
Yeah, I don't think the research is done yet, because the booster shots are such a new thing. One train of thought was to use a different booster from the original shots, as it should trigger a slightly different immune response, and so give a wider level of protection? But no ones has proven that because you have to give the boosters, then follow people for ~6 months to see what actually happened with the different combos. But on the other hand, if you know you didn't have a bad reaction to one vaccine, it might be safer to get another dose of that?
So like the Doc says, flip a coin, because no one knows for sure. Both options should work, and be safe, but exact numbers aren't in yet.
Comparative immunity update - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E89taTH86_s&t=1115s)
Dr. Campbell is straight up about it. He is no conspirator. He's been making videos before internet and youtube and has been an educator in health science. His first videos where on VHS tapes. :D
Getting my Maderna booster tomorrow. At 80 it is a clear choice.
Our local Walmart had to close for 24 hours for deep cleaning, there was a big uptick in our rural county and it turned out several employees had Covid but were working. There is a pretty large group of antivaxers in the region plus a lot of tourists that come through town and Walmart is the only nearby grocery store so plenty of chances to get exposed. There was a big festival in town last weekend and the reports were few in the crowd worse masks. The local hospital is full so folks that end up there get flown to whatever hospital has room.
A very well known local volunteer just passed from it as he was needle phobic and didn't dare tell anyone he was sick until too late.
Pericarditis after vaccination, possible inadvertent intravenous administration. Listen to Kyle's vaccination experience. He will be part of a rally in DC next month.
Kyle's vaccine experience - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7inaTiDKaU)
Pericarditis IS a known but rare side effect of the vaccine.
But it's most common cause is viral infection, like the Covid virus. So even in the high risk group (young males), they are about 4X more likely to develop that condition from the virus. Now they have their lungs, AND heart, and who knows what else compromised, and are in ICU.
I'm not saying that guy's side effects weren't real, just that they are about 1000X less dangerous than the virus. There has been ONE death linked to the vaccine here in NZ, and it was due to myocardia in an already ill patient. The patient that Covid was most likely to kill anyway.
I too have been watching the very informative videos from Dr. John Campbell of the UK and believe he has discovered a flaw in the way the vaccines are being administered. There are know risks from animal studies about administering any of the vaccines in a vein (IV) so the vaccine makers specify injections in the muscle (IM). However the "flaw" is unless the needle is "aspirated" ie. slightly pulling back on the plunger and looking for blood before injecting there is a very slight possibility they could be injecting in a vein rather than the muscle. Here is the video where Dr. Campbell describes what may be the problem if you care to watch his full explanation.
Inadvertant intravenous injections (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBaIRm4610o)
As the video that SD posted, there is a scheduled hearing before congress on Nov. 2, 2021 about relating these adverse reactions that about 5000 people are known to have experienced.
The one thing I could add as advice is if you are scheduled to receive a vaccine in the near future is to ask the nurse administering the shot to aspirate the needle before injecting. It's actually standard practice on an IM shot to aspirate and I am not sure why it has not been standard practice for administering the Covid-19 vaccines. If they are unwilling to comply, find another place to get your jab. I am eligible for a Pfizer booster shot and am now about to schedule that shot for both me and my wife and plan to ask if they will aspirate the needle before injecting.
Like Gary said, it is the method of injection that is suspect here. The vaccine is getting into the bloodstream and not strictly into muscle tissue where it is suppose to be. Dr. Campbell has an earlier video with a very qualified scientist from Germany sharing his findings. We are talking rare cases, but very real ones and it is more likely to affect younger males, seems 30'ish, but that number is anecdotal at this time. Kyles first injection went totally fine. To my understanding Kyle has not been infected with COVID-19.
It's possible that a mistake in the injection procedure could cause a bad reaction. Not common, but possible.
It's worth investigating. That's what the side effects database is for. Lil filled in an adverse reaction report in the local one this week, because she had red / sore / itchy arm. She didn't die, or lose an arm, and it's now just itchy. But it's now in the side effect database, because it was a side effect, even if it was more like a big mossie bite.
If that same effect got to your heart, you might actually get sick. Luckily that seems to be very rare. 99.9% get the sore arm....
But you're missing the point. This is not to go into a vein or artery, only muscle tissue and that is what the manufacturer(s) states. The fact that most don't strike a vein doesn't mean it has to happen at all. Before you push the syringe, 'Aspirate before inject'. ;D
SwampDonkey that video broke my heart. When he said, "we just need to show it's possible so people don't get disowned by their family."
A very compelling story.
That's a very significant safety issue with the jab if any blood stream intervention raises risks so much.
Even drawing back on the plunger you can still nick a blood vessel and not know it. I did it last week giving an IM injection. Pulled back on the plunger, strong resistance, no blood, administered the shot, removed the needle and there was a drop of blood. It was penicillin and didn't cause any issue, and by no means the first IM shot I have given, so yes it happens.
Multiply that literally billions of times and folks are going to be harmed.
Dr. Campbell has brought this to the attention of health officials in the UK and their response has been to state they have seen no problems so they would have to do a study to confirm if this lack of aspiration is a problem. But first of all, how would they see if it was a problem if they did not aspirate? And second imagine doing a study and half of the participants you gave the injection IM and aspirated and the other half you gave the injection IV which is directly contrary to the manufacturers instructions. How would that be ethical?
This change is a no brainer and so easy to accomplish.
Quote from: Roxie on October 22, 2021, 09:25:30 AM
A very compelling story.
What is even more compelling is what he stated about of the known 5000 or so of victims of these adverse reactions in the last month 6 have committed suicide.
Quote from: Southside on October 22, 2021, 09:37:21 AM
removed the needle and there was a drop of blood.
Prick you're finger and see if you don't draw blood. A little blood on the surface does not mean you pricked a vessel. But drawing blood when aspirating sure does. Got it now? :D Nicking a vessel on the way in isn't the same as injection into when the tip is past the vessel. I bet you're odds are quite different.
Seeing blood on the needle tip and just in the 18g hole isn't a regular occurrence, but needles move when you pull on the plunger, muscles flinch, things happen.
My point is the jab clearly has a safety issue if it's that risky.
My point is, jab and squirt has certain risk for this condition, but it is not high. But why not do it properly to reduce the risk? All the other stuff you can not control. You can control how you administer. You did your best. ;)
Well there are the doccumented cases here where folks have gone in for a flu shot and ended up getting a Covid jab instead, even kids. Guess that's no big deal.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on October 07, 2021, 10:01:55 AM
My wife and I went and got our 3rd phizer booster shot yesterday at our local health dept. Other than a sore arm when I'd roll over on it it I'd never know I'd had it.
I got an email today from our Morehead, KY, regional hospital where wife & I got moderna shots back in early spring. I called and was told they'd jumped the gun as puter system wasn't ready yet (they need this weekend when it getting less use to get it ready) for the next onslaught of booster seniors. It turned into a personal conversation with the lady who said she was holding off, which is where my mindset is right now. We both did not hold off on the first two shots but things are changed now as boosters remain in discussion by experts. The main point I get from my readings are lack of enough research as yet.
I've tried to stay abreast of boosters, r.e., crossover advantages, dis-advantages and lenght of interval vs. age. Between the politics and lack of research I think I'll hold off for time being. Business Insider has an article todays that touches on only some of the worlds vaccination research, some of which has been in the UK. Many medical professionals are saying that we badly need more research, especially in the USA.
With respect to what information I can read it' remains bothersome for me and many others that some of the experts left the panels for reasons mostly left to imagination. Throw in the teachers unions behind the back CDC contacts and it gets me asking for more and better straight forward research that we lack on boosters. Even government activities toward various vaccine mfg.'s makes for some concerns toward my own choices. Too bad it's that way.
Many USA employers are at wits end on federal vaccination mandates. Larger employers such as airlines make the news but smaller ones don't yet they comprise many of our workers. One of our sons is responsible for over 400 engineering employee's in a company that like most in construction, depends heavily on federal funding. If his company drops them they lose either way as these are not easy to replace people plus the business is highly dependent on federal jobs. His main location being next door to the Oak Ridge, TN nuclear location and own personal expertise as a nuclear engineer is but one small e.g. of how badly his company will be affected by the mandates.
His internal data tells him he must fire ~ 90 people, most being highly trained, experienced engineers in early December. He is restricted to shift employees geographically because many work on multiple projects at various locations based on their specialties. Nothing like getting canned right before the holidays huh?
I hope I've (mostly) avoided the politics and remained factual here, leaving others to their own conclusions.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 22, 2021, 11:30:35 AM
My point is, jab and squirt has certain risk for this condition, but it is not high. But why not do it properly to reduce the risk? All the other stuff you can not control. You can control how you administer. You did your best. ;)
As one who has recently had a shoulder cortisone injection, I read recently that some people feel that an improperly administered such injection can actually cause certain shoulder damage issues. My medical training all (except Army first aid) comes from google so it's above my head. I also saw a recent article on air injections causing issues-the army shot me cross ways one time and cut my upper arm and none went in either...
I've seen a billion covid vaccine injections on TV news-I think I could do it OK myself? :D Plus I inject my own allergy serum.
I understand why the hesitation when the information we receive has been muddied or skewed. Even Dr Fauci has not been honest as many suspected. It seems the ones responsible for this relatively benign virus (compared to what it could have been) have managed to deflect the blame to those that make different personal choices. I heard this morning that they are playing with fire in the Wuhan lab and a 50% death rate could have happened instead of the 1%.
So the experts have sometimes been less than factual
NIH Admits to Funding Gain-of-Function Research in Wuhan, Says EcoHealth Violated Reporting Requirements (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/nih-admits-to-funding-gain-of-function-research-in-wuhan-says-ecohealth-violated-reporting-requirements/ar-AAPNb5m)
QuoteA top NIH official admitted in a Wednesday letter that U.S. taxpayers funded gain-of-function research (https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/08/americans-deserve-the-truth-about-gain-of-function-research-and-the-wuhan-lab/) on bat coronaviruses in Wuhan and revealed that EcoHealth Alliance, the U.S. non-profit that funneled NIH money to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, was not transparent about the work it was doing.
Fool me once,shame on you,fool me twice shame on me
CDC director announced today that the US may change the definition of "fully vaccinated".
Quote from: Southside on October 22, 2021, 02:02:26 PM
Well there are the doccumented cases here where folks have gone in for a flu shot and ended up getting a Covid jab instead, even kids. Guess that's no big deal.
That's very troubling.
Again, we settle in to extreme positions where the truth may lie in the grey area in between. My opinion is that there is some blood stream injection with every IM shot. These are hollow bore needles that injure tissue (skin, sub-Q, muscle) based upon needle diameter. Veins are not just one thing or one size. There are many different diameter veins and smaller veinules. I would be shocked if these were not injured with every IM injection. Now, if injection into a larger diameter vein is the cause of complications, then investigations need to take place and the method of injection improved. Muscle has a great blood supply and I've seen it bleed for my entire career. Blood at the tip of an IM injection means nothing, IMO. But I find it hard to believe that some vein or veinules are not injured with every one, and that some of the injection doesn't end up directly in the bloodstream on all of us. If this is the culprit it will undoubtedly be a matter of degree. This is not a black and white issue.
The question of aspiration is not new nor settled. Here is the latest report on the subject and it is from 2017.
Aspiration in injections: should we continue or abandon the practice? (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5333604/)
Conclusion
There is a shortage of consistent recommendations regarding aspiration before injection in published literature, regulatory guidelines, and medical and nursing school curricula. There is also no central and easily accessible place where one can access and review information and guidelines regarding the procedure. It is therefore important to bring all the evidence, published and otherwise, to the forefront for clinicians, researchers, regulatory bodies and device manufacturers so that they can make an informed decision. Based on our findings, the need for aspiration prior to administering an injection is dependent upon multiple factors. Systemic adverse effects profile and mode of delivery (IV vs IM and SC) of drugs plays a significant role in the decision to aspirate or not to aspirate. There is ample evidence that suggests that aspiration may not be required for IM and SC injections, while for IV injections the systemic side effects of the drug should be considered when aspirating before any injection.
The problem is the study is old (before mRNA vaccines) although it does say the "side effects of the drug being considered."
The widespread use of auto-disable (AD) syringes – most of which are not designed to aspirate has not been linked to adverse effects due to the elimination of the aspiration procedure prior to injection of vaccines 7 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5333604/#ref-7). This finding has intensified the debate and raised doubts over the necessity of aspiration in non-vaccine medication administration as well.
There is one question brought up from that study. What are AD syringes?
Here is a brief study from August 2021.
Intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine can induce acute myopericarditis in mouse model (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8436386/)
Conclusions
This study provided in-vivo evidence that inadvertent intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA-vaccines may induce myopericarditis. Brief withdrawal of syringe plunger to exclude blood aspiration may be one possible way to reduce such risk.
It also seems one sign that you had it in a major blood vessel is a sudden bad taste in your mouth within seconds or a minute. Dr Campbell did an interview with another young man in hospital after Kyles video and they both experienced this taste, they describe it metallic like. For something to be that quick it has to be in the bloodstream or else it is some sort of quick reaction to it.
Lets not confuse passing through a vein or injuring it on the way in, with the tip being in one and injecting into it. That is not the same thing. It is believed that tiny amounts getting in versus the full load has different results.
Of course this is hypothesis and not yet proven, but is looking very likely. But how do you study this and be ethical about it? You can not know the unknown, like the path of that needle and what it struck going in when it is not visible inside your flesh. ;) Meanwhile these folks are still being written off? It's time to get a grip. It is not an extreme position in any way. It is called drawing attention to this injury and to figure it out and not sitting around silent.
Just out of curiosity, or cussedness, I looked up the anatomy of the blood system in the human shoulder. The meaty portion of the upper shoulder where shots are given has fine blood vessels while the major vessels are ventral. To hit a major vessel the venipuncture dude, or dudette :o, would have to be totally inept. What this has to do with the price of eggs, is beyond me, other than I have not had my coffee as of yet.
never heard of any of this. i suppose it is possible. the places we give IM shots, are area of large mucsle mass. so no large vein but certaily needs many small vessels to get blood too and from the cells. many drugs can be given IM or IV, and we adjust the rate of push and dose of medication. medications are ultimately absorbed into the blood stream anyway. an IM shot is given usually to avoid having to start an IV, or in folks that cannot have an IV started. for immunizations, you do want the antigen to be processes for the best immunoogenisis. the biggest intuitive problem IV would be it it cleared so fast the body does not have time to react to it. every nurse I have seen give an IM shot, aspirates first to make sure it is not in a vein, since the dose may be 2.5 x bigger IM. an IM drug does get into the system slower and therefore lasts longer for things like pain and sedation meds. I will watch the video when I can, but this sounds suspect. some areas of the body are like filters, like the liver, spleen, and kidneys. anything IV should past through the hearts like the pump it is. the lungs can trap thing from the blood as the capillaries get small. If we flush an IV with saline, you can tast salt as it perfuses the tongue, but that is 3 to 5 CCs. even if the med gives a bad taste, not sure how that is inked to heart inflamation. we will see. it is our body reacting to the vaccine or viral particles that makes the inflamation, and there are a thousand of these reactions at any given time that is modulated by the body. hopefully time will sort this out.
"Trust the science."
How long did J&J bury their Baby Powder? No big deal... FDA was all over it ::). Just like all the other recalls, see articles talking about research tying chemicals in food containers and other plastics to 100k deaths a year, never mind its been approved since 1965...
Yet some people wonder how others are opposed to the "mandate".
no question the inflamation spawned by the vaccine and to a greater extent the viral infection causes inflamation, and that is what causes the myocarditis (inflamation of the heart muscle) but to jump to an IV dose of a viaccine causing it to be more common is a jump. this is not a new diagnosis and has been associated with post viral syndromes for years. as i said, this will be figured out over time, and we still think that getting vaccine is safer than getting the virus without a vaccine. looks like we will all get the virus eventually as you still can get it despite the vaccine. I got the flu shot yesterday. I will wait to get my covid booster a few weeks.
I am opposed to mandates as well. it is not like the vaccine has prevented disease, but hopefully lessons the severity.
In Kyle's case, it didn't help that his first doctor said he never heard of it and that he must be psychotic (with no evidence) to suggest it. He had to go to a heart specialist to get his diagnosis (myocarditis) in a different hospital. ::)
Quote from: doc henderson on October 23, 2021, 07:37:27 AMevery nurse I have seen give an IM shot, aspirates first to make sure it is not in a vein, since the dose may be 2.5 x bigger IM.
There is lots of video evidence of this vaccine shot where it is not aspirated. Beyond that, it's not mandated in many countries. In China and Taiwan apparently it is mandated, however hard that is to swallow.
TR - you are correct. There are no large bore named veins within the deltoid muscle. The Cephalic vein is within the superficial aspect of the muscle, and is very anterior to where the shot is given (lateral). It may be that venous injection into the cephalic vein could occur if: 1) the injector penetrates in the absolute incorrect anterior portion of the shoulder and 2) the patient has such a significant adipose tissue layer under the skin that the needle only reaches slightly into the deltoid muscle. Barring those possibilities in concert, hard to see the needle reaching a large bore vein. I have operated around and through the deltoid hundreds and hundreds of times, I have never seen an identifiable vein within the muscle, excepting the superficial cephalic vein, in any of those dissections. We are all different, so who knows. It is, however, worth further study.
Oh I think you could hit something, it's rare, but yeah.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/muscualrveins.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634997208)
nurses spend days with supervision and testing on how to give shots. Docs, not so much. see one, do one, teach one. It is not rocket science, and is mostly to be able to follow Doc orders so the dose and onset are as expected. we will see. when I see a nurse give a shot, I always wonder why it takes them so long. i am a conceptual guy and try to understand the body and how it works. i have no idea how this could make a difference, but this sounds like one of those deals. feel free to ask your nurse to aspirate, and she would have prob. anyway. you are jabbing a needle into an unseen area. they used to give shots in the glut (why kids hate needles so much) and thought it may increase sterile abscess more. still hardly ever. If your nurse rolls her eyes at you, let it go. if you poke the lateral aspect of the deltoid, there is nothing there.
One time at the kids' 4-H meeting, someone gave a demonstration on giving shots to livestock. They used an orange for the test subject😂. After that, whenever one of our dogs would need to go in for shots, I would say, "just have Moriah do it, she knows how!" My other daughter would roll her eyes and say, "Daaaad, she gave a shot to an orange!"😂😂 That's all I can add to this conversation 🤷♂️🤷♂️😊
I had my booster (third Pfizer) shot last Monday. No side effects other than a sore shoulder for a few days.
My second shot left me pretty tired the second day after.
And the beat goes on. ;)
Latest figures for the Delta outbreak here in NZ
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/covid_rates_nz.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635239713)
Of the 224 people that have needed hospital care, only 3 were vaccinated. (2 shots + 2 weeks). A lot of children have caught it, but fortunately not so many needed hospital care. MOST of the serious cases have been the non-vaccinated. The vaccination rate is for the total population, so includes the under 12s in the %.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 25, 2021, 03:11:49 AM
And the beat goes on. ;)
Still moving strong!!! ;D Great jam
Given that the discussion of vaccines is a worldwide hot topic lately, the most recent Smithsonian magazine has an article, written by a doc, that I found interesting. Covers the historical and current diphtheria vaccination senario.
It is an article any parent of younger children should read IMO.
The diptheria vaccines have changed as recently as lately and it continues to be a factor for children's health in several areas of the world. Even in Europe, held up as being the more advanced society at times, they are still yet shuffling diphtheria vaccines from place to place.
I may (probably) have miss-used the proper terminology of vaccine vs anti-toxins and so on but when we have parents who hold back their own kids from vaccinations it's a worthy discussion to understand better.
After reading even more professional comments each day, I'm still in a holding pattern for more info about the booster covid shot for myself. I'll share that I do find the media comments from Dr. Marty Makary, of Johns Hopkins both informative and useful. He is of the opinion that the covid vaccines should have been spaced further apart than was the case for shots #1 & #2. Like most docs he also know there is a lack of research in the entire arena of covid vaccinations.
On shoulder shots I have wondered if somebody will strike my left shoulders screws or cable someday?
I've seen several doctors state that using a different vaccine boosts immunity and giving second doses further apart than 2 weeks is more effective as well. Around here I'd say from observation and the media reporting that most of us had doses a lot further apart than 2 weeks. I know mine was over 2 months apart. But that was only by consequence, because of availability of vaccine. So can't give full credit there to be honest. Just happens that it is more effective when doing that, as it turns out. Mixing vaccines has been good to. Why mixing of vaccines was a big hesitation in some countries is still a mystery. ;)
It has to be studied. if you got two very differant vaccines would they together be twice as good, no better than one alone, or some multiple of the origional like 3 or 4 times better. when we started, we were trying to get people immunity, so do you wait a few months for the second dose so it lasts for years, or get two in soon as possible to get over 90% relative immunity. if you die before the second dose, not so good. I agree we are learning as we go. how else can you do it with a novel pandemic.
Well stated Doc. smiley_thumbsup
As it turns out, if we look at other vaccinations for disease. Often see a different vaccine for the same disease gives a better response in some patients that didn't respond well from another. So going on inference and not all guess work.
But yes, maximize the # of people getting a poke was priority. ;)
NZ had switched to 6 weeks gap between shots because research suggested that gave better immunity, and at the time the virus wasn't circulating here. But when the virus did get loose again, we started seeing community cases, and there was now plenty of vaccine available, they are back to the 3 week gap. You can see from the table I posted above, the 2 shots (whether 3 or 6+ weeks apart) give a LOT better protection than just one shot. I don't believe the difference is huge, but currently the push is to get everyone that 90%(?) immunity. Maybe waiting longer might give 95, as might getting a booster next year.
Like the Doc says. we don't KNOW, we are learning as we go. Makes it tough to give people exact answers for legit questions like "How long is the vaccine immunity good for?". You can measure how the level of antibodies in the blood falls off over time, but that's not a direct relationship to immunity. That probably depends on the body's ability to make MORE antibodies at short notice if needed, and that's harder to assess.
Will there be booster shots next year? Maybe. NZ is currently testing a new vaccine aimed more specifically at the Delta variant, and not MRNA based. It's hoped that this will work as a more effective booster shot. But it's only in animal testing at this stage, so no where near ready to deploy. And again it's the question of whether a different booster vaccine will work better than a 3rd dose of Pfizer, which no one knows yet.
My friend who is a researcher for pharmaceutical companies was telling us about the process of doing trials. The manufacturer comes up with a hypothesis and tests it. Pfizer hypothesized that waiting 3 weeks between shots would be a good time frame. They did all the studies and it was found to be 95% efficacious. When it was approved by FDA, that was what they had to do, because that's what was studied. To change the timing gap, there would have to be whole new studies is what he said. Now, that's for the US. I presume other countries can do what ever they choose to be the better course.
My wife was just reading from the study on Pfizer in children 5 to 12. So far, the vaccine was found to be 91% effective which is very good considering that much of the study was involving delta variant. My 11 year old may be able to get a shot next week if they approve it.
"New Canadian data suggests the bold strategy to delay and mix second doses of COVID-19 vaccines led to strong protection from infection, hospitalization and death — even against the highly contagious delta variant — that could provide lessons for the world."
New data suggests Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines paid off | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-vaccine-effectiveness-data-delayed-doses-mixing-matching-covid-19-vaccines-1.6205993)
Just a fact. I lost a friend this week.
Thomas 'Tom' Sluiter Obituary - Zeeland, Michigan - Yntema Funeral Home (http://langelandsterenberg.tributes.com/obituary/show/Thomas-Tom-Sluiter-108529707)
Sorry for your loss, Jeff. He sounds like a colorful character just from the obituary.
sorry Jeff.
Sorry to hear that. Sobering that he was about our age.
Sorry about your buddy Jeff.
Sorry for your loss Jeff!
My sincere condolences Jeff.
Very sorry Jeff. This plague does not separate the good from the not so good and sadly takes all it wants..
Sorry for your loss Jeff
It sucks when everybody around you the same age die, and makes you wonder what's happening. Sorry Jeff.
Sorry for your lose, bud, this has been all too frequent recently.
Hard to lose a friend.
I'm sorry for the loss of your friend, Jeff.
For those interested in the protection of natural vs vaccine effectiveness there is a new study out which this article discusses.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/10/covid-19-vaccine-gives-5-times-protection-natural-immunity-data-show°° (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/10/covid-19-vaccine-gives-5-times-protection-natural-immunity-data-show)
From the local radio station stats for Nova Scotia.
There have been 87 cases of COVID-19 between October 21 and October 27. Of those:
— 23 (26.4 per cent) were fully vaccinated
— 3 (3.4 per cent) were partially vaccinated
— 61 (70.1 per cent) were unvaccinated
There have been 5,649 cases from March 15 to October 27. Of those:
— 359 (6.4 per cent) were fully vaccinated
— 359 (6.4 per cent) were partially vaccinated
— 4,931 (87.3 per cent) were unvaccinated
There were 306 people hospitalized. Of those:
— 12 (3.9 per cent) were fully vaccinated
— 31 (10.1 per cent) were partially vaccinated
— 263 (85.9 per cent) were unvaccinated
Thirty-four people died. Of those:
— 3 (8.8 per cent) were fully vaccinated
— 3 (8.8 per cent) were partially vaccinated
— 28 (82.4 per cent) were unvaccinated
New randomized double blind study (people administering doses don't know if placebo or not, patients don't know either) with antidepressant fluvoxamine with Brazilian patients which were not vaccinated I believe. Administered dose early on when a confirmed case, within 7 days.
Canada, Brazil and USA involved. Research being done under the 'Together Trial' banner.
https://www.togethertrial.com
Published online here: DEFINE_ME (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(21)00448-4/fulltext)
Dr. Campbell sums it up. Essentially shows 32% reduction in both hospitalization and death.
Antidepressant reduces hospitalisations and deaths - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrYj5VJKLIs&t=1392s)
Quote from: Lostinmn on October 31, 2021, 08:08:31 AM
For those interested in the protection of natural vs vaccine effectiveness there is a new study out which this article discusses.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/10/covid-19-vaccine-gives-5-times-protection-natural-immunity-data-show°° (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/10/covid-19-vaccine-gives-5-times-protection-natural-immunity-data-show)
Here is a quote from the referenced article.
Unvaccinated at 5.5 times the riskThe researchers looked at data from nine states on 201,269 hospitalizations for COVID-like illness from Jan 1 to Sep 2, 2021. Of these, 94,264 had molecular testing for SARS-CoV-2, and 7,348 (7.8%) had lab-confirmed COVID-19. Among that group, 1,020 hospitalizations were among previously infected and unvaccinated people, and 6,328 cases were among fully vaccinated people who were not previously infected.Lab-confirmed COVID-19 was found in 324 (5.1%) of the fully vaccinated people and in 89 (8.7%) of the unvaccinated, previously infected people.Those numbers just don't add up nor make any sense. Looks to me like the unvaccinated, previously infected group is the place to be.
Gary those percentages are always confusing to us laymen. But it's in the presentation.
Smaller group of unvaccinated who were previously infected versus vaccinated who were not previously infected showed higher rate of infection (higher percentage) in the small group of unvaccinated with prev. infections. And if it is randomized you don't get to choose how many of each in the sample (from 201,000+ hospitalizations).
we have very few admits, that are not 100% covid tested prior. so that was odd that such a small percentage of covid admits tested +. I can remember one that tested negative, but the x-ray was spot on covid and her husband was +. so she needed admitted for what ever what causing her shortness of breath and hypoxia. she also needed a bypass and valve replacement that had to wait due to the dx. 88y/o.
Depending on what test was used, they could be false results until they use a proper molecular test. That's why up here those kinds of tests are considered unreliable and invalid to enter Canada.
Here in New Brunswick 93% with at least one dose, 85% fully vaccinated. We have 23 in hospital and 513 active cases.
Quote from: Gary_C on October 31, 2021, 10:43:31 AMThose numbers just don't add up nor make any sense. Looks to me like the unvaccinated, previously infected group is the place to be.
When you look at the % of cases that are recovered vs vaccinated, that's a % of the new infections, not of the overall population.
So what is the % of the general population that are vaccinated vs recovered?
If 50% of the population is vaccinated, and 10% are recovered, but they have a similar number of cases, that suggests the vaccine is giving 5X better protection than a recovered infection. More cases could actually be showing up in the vaccinated folks, but there are many more of them out in population.
Arguably the best protected might be the vaccinated and then infected with a mild case, but if you got a good reaction from the vaccine, you probably wont get infected at all. (Which would suggest the best protection possible)
No one is saying that recovering from the virus doesn't give "some" immunity, or that the vaccine is 100% effective. But recovered people ARE catching the virus again, as are some vaccinated people. It's only the relative % that are in question. But no vaccinated person has died of Covid here in NZ, and about 80% of the cases are in the ~20% of the population that aren't vaccinated. We don't have enough recovered to get any meaningful stats for them.
Are those data taking into account the unvaccinated folks who did not make it out of the hospital. They did not live long enough to become infected again. Even if acquired immunity were 100x more effective than that from vaccine, I would not choose to get the illness and risk death on the hope that the second time I get the illness it saves my life that I had it once before.
I believe in the findings from this study, but the writer of the article did a poor job of showing the data to support the findings.
Here's the author's summation...
The authors conclude, "These findings suggest that among hospitalized adults with COVID-19–like illness whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, vaccine-induced immunity was more protective than infection-induced immunity against laboratory-confirmed COVID-19."
Quote from: doctorb on October 31, 2021, 10:12:57 PM
Here's the author's summation...
The authors conclude, "These findings suggest that among hospitalized adults with COVID-19–like illness whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, vaccine-induced immunity was more protective than infection-induced immunity against laboratory-confirmed COVID-19."
Yes doctorb, I read that conclusion. The problem I have with that conclusion is the facts they present in that "news story" do not support those conclusions and in fact what facts they present sorta contradict their conclusion. So I followed the link they provided back to the early release of the report as published by the CDC who apparently funded the study and report. Just for reference the authors admit they are also receiving funding from Pfizer, Merck, GlaxcoSmithKline and AstraZeneca.
Without diving into all the gory details of the study, here is the first two sentences of one paragraph in the Discussion.
The findings in this report are subject to at least seven limitations. First, although this analysis was designed to compare two groups with different sources of immunity, patients might have been misclassified. If that doesn't shake your confidence in the results, here are a few things I found troubling.
1. Nowhere in the study did they actually measure antibody levels. It was all based on the presence or absence of positive SARS-CoV-2 rapid antigen or molecular assays during specified intervals.
2. In the unvaccinated group, the largest percentage (31%) fell in the 18-49 year old age range while in the vaccinated group the largest percentage (32%) fell in the 75-84 year old age range.
3. The test date for the unvaccinated group had the highest numbers (53%) in the April-May months while the vaccinated group had the highest numbers (75%) in the July-August months.
At this point I lost interest and confidence in the report and looked no further.
Up this way for travel purpose anyway:
These tests are considered acceptable molecular tests:
- PCR - Polymerase chain reaction
- Nucleic acid test (NAT) or Nucleic acid amplification test (NAATs)
- Reverse transcription loop-mediated isothermal amplification (RT-LAMP)
These tests use methods such as a nasopharyngeal (NP) swab, nose swab, or saliva sample.
Other acceptable types of tests
- RT-PCR – reverse transcription real time PCR
- Quantitative PCR (qPCR)
- Isothermal amplification
- Droplet digital PCR or digital droplet PCR (ddPCR)
- Transcription-mediated amplification (TMA)
- RNA (Ribonucleic acid)
- Ct (cycle threshold)
- CRISPR
- Sequencing
- Next generational sequencing (NGS) or whole genome sequencing (WGS)
- Oxford Nanopore sequencing (LamPORE)
- Detection of the N gene
- Detection of Orf1a/b
- Detection of the S gene
- Detection of the E gene
- Detection of the RdRp gene
Rapid antigen tests will not be accepted.
COVID-19 testing for travellers - Travel restrictions in Canada ? Travel.gc.ca (https://travel.gc.ca/travel-covid/travel-restrictions/flying-canada-checklist/covid-19-testing-travellers-coming-into-canada)
Seems to me, if rapid antigen tests can't be used for travel, then it's pretty flaky for an experiment. :D
The study's "gravitas" is based in the huge numbers of people studied. On the downside, All large population studies have flaws, and this one is no different. I wouldn't use if to further support or reject my current opinion. I would just file it away as something that needs corroboration with better methods.
Fact is the press secretary had the covid shot that they are drilling in your head to get and she has Covid now
Triple jabbed, double masked, even brags about always distancing, with enough mandate virtuous signaling for one to get sunbuned in a solar eclipse. So much for "The science". Maybe you can catch it from the toilet seat?
Crash course in how your immune system works for anyone with a spare 1/2 hour.
Warning - Even the simplified version is not simple... :-\ :P
How The Body Reacts To Viruses - HMX | Harvard Medical School (https://onlinelearning.hms.harvard.edu/hmx/immunity/)
But it goes into how we have "Innate" immunity, which is defences that work against ANY random intruder. This would explain how some people are exposed to the Covid Virus, but it doesn't gain a foothold in their body.
Then we have B-Cell system, that recognises specific intruders, and produces different types of antibodies to bind to them up and have them destroyed (by other "innate" immune system cells)
Then there are the different T Cells, which are basically "on standby" to activate for a specific protein marker. These exist in millions of different combinations, so there will be at least one that's able to activate. When that cell gets "turned on", it multiplies itself, and sets out to destroy infected body cells (before they can replicate and release new viral particles). There are also different T Cell functions. Some work with the B-Cells to produce more anti-bodies etc. And there are long lived "Memory T Cells" that hang around after the infection is cleared up. So those are waiting to kick back into action if a re-infection occurs later.
But when you look at how complex the system is, (even the simplified version), and consider how each persons individual immune system is going to respond in a slightly different way, you can see how it's difficult to measure immunity with something like a blood test. Anti-body levels alone aren't a good measure. There are people that have recovered from Covid, without producing the "normal" antibody, because their immune system triggered on a completely different part of the virus, and so produced a completely different (but effective enough) antibody. And how it's difficult to predict how long either natural or vaccine immunity might last. Antibodies might have been flushed from the system, but "some" Memory T Cells remain, on standby to make more? How effectively?
Quote from: Ianab on November 01, 2021, 09:07:47 PM
But when you look at how complex the system is, (even the simplified version), and consider how each persons individual immune system is going to respond in a slightly different way, you can see how it's difficult to measure immunity with something like a blood test.
That's true and most likely why the Vaccine(
an idea so good it's mandatory) causes some to have mild symptoms like a sore arm and others anaphylaxis, myocarditis in young people, Guillain-Barre and like the two guys I knew here in our little town, death. Maybe one size doesn't fit all?
Quote from: Walnut Beast on November 01, 2021, 05:46:25 PM
Fact is the press secretary had the covid shot that they are drilling in your head to get and she has Covid now
She has mild symptoms by the way. Why is it that some people think the jab prevents infection? It lowers the probability of severe disease, that is all. That's the only line I have heard up here. But one thing they did get wrong, was thinking you couldn't spread it after fully immunized. And that was even after many of the top doctors said was probably not likely, but we need to wait and see.
One size doesn't fit all, even the kids get smaller doses. But sever side effects have been rare and some caused by injection technique, which is part of the demonstration going on this month in DC. We are letting people not fully trained, jab us. Lots of evidence of this from Dr. Campbell who receives daily testimony on video from folks who got improper jabs. The last testimony I seen was when the patient asks the person if she knows what aspiration is. "Yeah, that's when you inject water in first?" A response in the form of a question is the first bad sign, besides being wrong. ::)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 02, 2021, 04:12:11 AMShe has mild symptoms by the way. Why is it that some people think the jab prevents infection? It lowers the probability of severe disease, that is all.
From local numbers it DOES seem to reduce infections, AND if they break though, the symptoms are less severe.
The vaccine isn't 100% effective at stopping infection, more like 80%?
But of the breakthrough cases, they are much less severe.
Either way, many less dead people.
The only numbers you see is from test results from contact tracing, travel and symptoms. You don't see all the numbers of infections in the vaccinated because it's a wild guesstimate with the asymptomatic. Testing is prioritized. It's well known already you can carry the virus and not be sick at all. Expel the virus and spread it around in a building of people coming and going or close crowd. The virus will be with us for some time.
I don't know about all the facts. I know my arm from last March 2 shots is still sore. When the needle came out, the #2 time blood shot out at the guy giving the shot 3' away and hit him. ::)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 02, 2021, 04:12:11 AMShe has mild symptoms by the way. Why is it that some people think the jab prevents infection?
Well the answer to your question is because that's how they rolled it out 8 months ago however as time marched on they changed those claims.When I get home tonight I can post CNN's timeline on reporting those CDC's claims.
Now in our area many have been infected and the majority have been mild flu like symptoms and some more severe. Several families close to us have had it and all had declined the gene therapy with the same outcome both young and elderly. These families live healthy lifestyles and eating habits.
The only two deaths I know of personally have been within hours of the shot so I can only speak of what I see
Here’s a “crown fact”, these restrictions and regulations and documenting of peoples movements will never go away, the cats out of the bag, have made a massive “pandemic/crisis” out of a virus little more harmful than the common cold, and they have everyone thinking the means justify the actions(loss of liberty). A lot of people judge folks who don’t want the vaccine, but here I am, still no covid, still finer than ever, still haven’t even known anyone around here that has had this virus, and they have it dividing us, have us fighting over scraps and stupid “problems” while we get robbed through modern day slavery.
Here’s a idea; everyone who has been worried of catching covid has had the opportunity to get the vaccine, the people who don’t want it don’t need to get it, the people who do get it but are still frantically scared…can stay in the safety of their home being frantically scared…while the rest of us don’t need to live a alternate lifestyle for these people.
I’ve said my piece, what’s fun is, sitting back and watching people keep making up excuses for all this madness, I’m thinking “what excuse next?” IMO nothing should override liberty, if you’re scared of the virus then go hide in your basement as this is supposedly a free nation and you are allowed to do so.
And I can understand what paul is saying, they did sell it as “everything back to normal, just need the jabs”, then after the fact came out and told us we can get infected anyway, so if you can get infected anyway, why are some people afraid of unvaccinated people?
Someone’s making billions anyway
My humble opinion is that this thread has moved away from "just the facts".
The facts have become more clear as time moved on.
Or we are having trouble discerning the difference between facts and fiction. This "information age" does have flaws.
Not to mention false test results from rapid tests. And a big consideration is, people who are vaccinated may never have been exposed afterword. Some of us vaccinated, continue to mask and distance. What if I don't anymore? Get infected and don't know. :D There is no actual study selecting people at random and blindly (don't know vaccination status during selection). The CDC only studies: long term care residents, healthcare and front liners, those hospitalized, urgent care patients. Says so on their site. There's a heck of a lot of people otherwise. The way it is, the probabilities are skewed to one side, they are showing signs. :D
SD,
originally they said you don't have to wear a mask and I wonder why you would need to?
The kaos that has ensued directly from the responses to covid has created much more damage than covid ever could have. Hospitals have never been overcrowded here enough to justify putting off people getting tested for cancers, getting surgery's etc. How about all these shortages now because of shutdowns? Prices sky rocketing? The divide? More rules and restrictions? Children missing out on in class learning? the collective mental health of a society? . Ah what am I kidding it's all going as planned.
Evidently, one fact about the corona virus is that it has killed more Americans than died in all wars since the turn of the century.....the 20th century, that is.
Here is the pic I mentioned above and the changing information on the vaccine. It reminds me of a post Southside made a couple of months ago of the frog in the pot of water that doesn't notice the change in temps.
I wouldn't worry about the vaccine one pinch except the end game is indeed to force it upon the free citizens of our counties. We already are under these mandates in our country and Australia even more so. There are other therapies available that should be made available.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10199/cnnchart.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635870215)
The science is not settled
Quote from: Paul_H on November 02, 2021, 11:24:42 AM
SD,
originally they said you don't have to wear a mask and I wonder why you would need to?
We were told it was optional in July reopening, but only 68% vax by then. Some of us still wore ours. And top doctors warned against unmasking. Found out going unmasked is not a good idea until more are vaxxed. The reason was you can spread to not vaccinated. Then later added that it protects the vaccinated to once we opened early here in July and found out Delta was more infectious. Now we are under 'circuit breaker' lock downs in various regions of NB because numbers of infections jumped. Yet we are among the least cases of infections and hospitalizations and deaths on the continent. I can't imagine 25 patients overwhelming the system and 117 deaths since the start. We've had 1.2% positive cases from all the testing (6476 out of 527,822). Population here is under 800,000. We have 85% vaccinated and 93% at least one dose at this time. The recovery rate has been over 90% (not counting those still active and will recover as well which will add another 5 to 6% recovered going on past percentages).
Science, i.e. the quest for knowledge and understanding, is never "settled". For it to be so would be the exact opposite of science. The word for settled arguments is dogma.
I agree and thankfully it is that way.
Quote from: wisconsitom on November 02, 2021, 02:52:08 PM
Science, i.e. the quest for knowledge and understanding, is never "settled". For it to be so would be the exact opposite of science. The word for settled arguments is dogma.
I was paraphrasing potus 44 but you would know that from a few years ago.
I wonder if anybody here, is comfortable with the forced job loss of their fellow citizens for declining the treatment? Could doctors that speak against forced medical treatment also face firing? Thin edge of the wedge?
So the vaccinated can infect the unvaccinated?
If your vaccinated and you get infected, sure can. Could be mild infection or no symptoms in vaccinated and more severe in unvaccinated.
Oct 15th from CDC
CDC recommends that fully vaccinated people:
- Wear a mask indoors in public if they are in an area of substantial or high transmission (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view).
- Fully vaccinated people might choose to mask regardless of the level of community transmission, particularly if they or someone in their household is immunocompromised or at increased risk for severe disease (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-with-medical-conditions.html), or if someone in their household is unvaccinated.
- Get tested if experiencing COVID-19 symptoms (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/symptoms-testing/symptoms.html).
- Get tested 5-7 days after close contact (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/contact-tracing/contact-tracing-plan/appendix.html#contact) with someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19.
- Wear a mask indoors in public for 14 days after exposure or until a negative test result.
- Isolate if they have tested positive for COVID-19 in the prior 10 days or are experiencing COVID-19 symptoms (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/symptoms-testing/symptoms.html).
- Follow any applicable federal, state, local, tribal, or territorial laws, rules, and regulations.
*People who get vaccine breakthrough infections can be contagious and spread the virus to others
Fun fact of the day, Pfizer is requesting to reformulate their "jab for kids". Seems they wish to remove the buffered saline from the elixir, and replace it with an acid substance that is used to treat blood clots.
Why would they do that?
Southside-
Could you please provide a reference so I could read up on the "reformulation"? Thx.
It may be more stable. what is the acid?
I do not know of an acid to add to be enough volume to "prevent blood clots" for any length of time. If that were the reason it would require re-approval as a drug. I think. interesting
Tromethamine is the requested ingredient. It's on page 14 of the Pfizer / FDA application paperwork, but the link will not highlight to paste. It did however, allow me to copy this text
"To provide a vaccine with an improved stability profile, the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine for use in children 5-11 years of age uses tromethamine (Tris) buffer instead of the phosphate buffered saline (PBS) as used in the previous formulation and excludes sodium chloride and potassium chloride"
So they want to reformulate the drug slightly to make it more stable, probably giving it a longer shelf life, or use period once it's out of the freezer?.
Or maybe the salt was interfering with the 5G chip?
You can decide.
And a Dr that doesn't believe in vaccines is like an airline pilot that doesn't believe in Gravity. It's a fundamental part of their job description, not a matter of opinion.
So the fact that many healthcare workers are willing to walk away from everything they've worked for rather than take the jab is explained how? Keeping in mind many of these people know and understand how true vaccones work.
Or maybe they are concerned that their liability shield will expire and killing more folks ain't gonna be good for future business.
You can decide.
I pointed out a FACT, seems you can't accept those Ian.
Quote from: Ianab on November 02, 2021, 10:49:48 PM
And a Dr that doesn't believe in vaccines is like an airline pilot that doesn't believe in Gravity. It's a fundamental part of their job description, not a matter of opinion.
I'll wager you not all doctors believe in forced vaccines.
you know if you add hydrochloric acid to sodium bicarbonate, you get table salt and carbonate. it breaks down into water and carbon dioxide. adding acid is done sometimes to neutralize the compound.
I do not believe in mandates either. This one is disturbed by people falling one side of politics. and lots of mis-information out there. It is hard to sort through the crap. anyone that claims to have all the answers on either side of the opinion are prob. tainted by an agenda. there are times when public safety comes into play. Just like going to war, you hope people in charge are not using the issue as a tool.
Fact is early on the kids didn't need the jab they said. The so called experts. Now the drum is getting beat really really hard to jab all of them 🙄😂
Southside- here are the fun facts as best as I can research....
I cannot find any evidence that tromethamine (TRIS) is anything but an alkaline (not acid) compound currently used as a buffer of other medications (Toradol) and other existing vaccines. It's main indication as a stand alone medication is to correct metabolic acidosis. The volume of such a compound given with an IM injection is small, at best.
Further....from the FDA:
"The new formulation of the vaccine developed by Pfizer Inc. contains Tris buffer, a commonly used buffer in a variety of other FDA-approved vaccines and other biologics, including products for use in children. The FDA evaluated manufacturing data to support the use of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine containing Tris buffer and concluded it does not present safety or effectiveness concerns."
I can find no mention of any anticoagulant activity assigned to tromethamine and therefore can't support your assertion that this was inserted into the "jab for kids" as an anti-clotting medication. Pfizer did recently develop a new anticoagulant to be used in children, but that medication was created prior to the Covid pandemic and has not been part of any vaccine or Covid treatment protocol.
Finally, I agree with doc henderson. If Pfizer were now adding a new drug to the vaccine that had a specific medical purpose related to the vaccine, then the FDA would require a new series of trials.
Again, I refer all to the title of this thread. It is my opinion that conspiracy theories should remain in the Restricted section.
I guess you can start with this Doc.
.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8494483/ (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8494483/)
Wow, South...had to go to the reference books on this one.
You linked to a 1993 study in rats that placed alkaline radicals onto compounds known as sydnone imines and looked at platelet activity. I can find no relation between the compounds they studied and the current Tromethamine buffer. What makes you believe that this lab study connects these two compounds? Amines and imines are quite distinctly different compounds.
Further, I have been reading quite a bit about Tromethamine and it's uses. There are many, many studies on this drug, some dating back to the '60's. Not one mentions a desired effect or undesired side effect of anticoagulation. Not one.
So I don't see your linked study as supporting your contention. As a biochemistry major in college, I'm sure I've forgotten much of what I knew. But I think I know tapioca when I see it. :D
Here are two cursory summaries of the two compounds. They are unrelated chemically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tris)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydnone_imine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydnone_imine)
And here's an organic chemistry blog comparison of the two:
"Amines are derivatives of
NH3
. Amides are acid derivatives (or more rarely, anionic amines). Imines are nitrogen derivatives of carbonyl compounds.
Explanation:
Organic amines,
NR3
, are derivatives of ammonia,
NH3
On the other hand, an imine is a carbonyl derivative,
RC(=NR')R
, formed by condensation of a carbonyl and an amine."
Chemical facts. My apologies to all others who could care less...
Also be aware that the level of testing (the #'s of tests) is way lower in the US and Canada than in the UK and other countries. Remember the phrase: "stop testing and the numbers of infections will go down."? :D No I don't believe that quote literally. But it's reflected in all these charts we see. Just asking, how believable are the 'charts' with low sample size?
And here is something for your consideration, strictly hypothetical.
Given: population is 800,000, 85% vaccinated.
Diagram shows % infections by vaccination status.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/percent-infections-category.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635927711)
Combined total infected people by category.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/total-infections.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635927836)
Be careful in how the numbers are presented is all I need to say. :D
From what I read, tromethamine can sometimes be used as a drug, but its main use is as a buffer solution to prevent changes in Ph. From what my friend who works in pharma study, buffers that have already been proven as safe in previous study can be used to avoid having to do a whole new study on safety. As suggested it seems most likely that they are switching buffers to help keep the vaccine more stable. Pfizer's biggest problem has been the need to keep it super cold. Perhaps that will not be as big of an issue.
The Nova Scotia rates show a similar trend now that the vaccine rate is high at 77% the number of break through cases have gone up but the unvaccinated cases are still much higher even though they are only 23% of the total population unvaccinated are 70% of cases from a 1 week sample in late October.
even though this is a difficult and charged subject. I will point out the @doctorb (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10176) made the 3,000th post and almost 100,000 views of the subject. There is lots of emotion and I feel for all that lost loved ones either from the virus, vaccine or isolation and fear of going to the hospital. I think in light of those considerations, we have all been decent to each other and supportive of opinions. I appreciate the admin patients so this thread can continue. hopeful it has brought information to many on all sides to this subject. God bless. Doc
Thanks to both Docs. I appreciate your comments and expertise and explanations.
I just disagree with taking my choice away.
I live in a very low covid area.
I know 3 people who have had covid. Mild medium and not at all.
I know of more problems from the vaccine than from covid. ( I know not facts right)
I know of 10 people that have had what I consider adverse reactions to the vaccine. 3 have died with in days of the vaccine. 1st or 2nd dose. 3 have vertigo which came after the 1st and or 2nd dose. My buddy is so bad that he lays in bed vomiting. It has been 6 months of suffering. The other 2 have been 3 and 5 weeks with vertigo. 4 have myocarditus and are different ages from 22 - 61.
Our minor hockey system in and other minor sports in Ontario are not mandating the vaccine for particapation because of the myocarditus.
Our Premier ( bless him) is predicting he will lift the "Vaccine passport " in the new year.
This virus is never going away. Get used to living with it. Get our Hospital and Health care systems up to handle it.
My thoughts for the night.
Stay safe everyone.
thanks @Stephen1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=3648) . it seems you meant vaccine, not virus in your comment?
While I can understand some issues with virus mandates, I can see the reasons for them. In a hospital situation? Medical staff already have various vaccine requirements. They have people coming in with multiple existing health issues, and an infected staff member isn't going to help. Vaccine only 80% effective? OK, that's 80% less risk. NZ is currently working though the exact legal situation there. On one hand there is the personal choice, but on the other is the legal requirement for a business to "Take all reasonable measures" to prevent harm to staff and the public. Is having your staff vaccinated to reduce the risk of infecting other staff and customers "reasonable"?. I can see that being tested on Court soon, but meanwhile 90% of the country has had at least one shot.
The legal precedents for "Public Health Orders" have been settled over 100 years ago in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts
Stephen - Not doubting your friends health issues, but we don't know Anyone locally that's suffered any serious side effects. Minor stuff, everyone had some sort of reaction, and some even needed a day off work or school, but the expected stuff. Now saying that some don't have more serious reactions, but they seem VERY rare. That's just my experience anyway. We are also in an area that Covid hasn't spread AT ALL, most of us would prefer to keep it that way, but now accept that it's pretty much inevitable it will reach us.
Myocarditis IS a rare but known side effect of the vaccine, usually mild (as far as that condition goes). It's also a known side effect of the virus, and occurs about 4X more often in Covid patients, then in the the young males that are most at risk from the vaccine side effect. That's the risk / benefit analysis thing again.
Not seeing any reported myocarditis in this area. Not even sure if it is part of the reporting at all since those kinds of things are confidential. You would probably only hear it from family and close friends. What I do see once in awhile are deaths after being vaccinated, then infected. But later to find out they have cancer or major issues besides (among the big 5 Dr Campbell presented in a video) and old age a lot of times. But those are deaths from COVID.
On the vertigo thing, my mother has had it off and on for years. She gets a prescription and it's gone in 2 days. It's an inner ear problem, triggered by many things I believe.
Here is a very good analysis of the pandemic from one of the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration which has now been signed by over 60,000 scientists around the world, some of whom have been fired for their signing. Yes, it is an opinion piece but it is from the top experts in the world and yes it is over an hour long. So watch if you are interested or not.
What Happened: Dr. Jay Bhattacharya on 19 Months of COVID (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG7XZ2JXZqY)
the most recent case of myocarditis I have seen, is post partum, not covid or vaccine related. so it is a diagnosis causes by many medical issues. I agree it is relatively rarely caused by the covid vaccine. I think you chances of myocarditis, as well as clot related issues (PE,MI,stroke) are worse with the disease than the vaccine. so fewer folks get the side effects from the vaccine than the disease.
I read an interesting article today's NYT's about Tyson Foods, the huge meatpacker that was vilified for their "keep on working" mandates (which didn't include masking mandates at the time) early on before vaccines were available but has more recently mandated vaccinations of their workers, allowing for religion and certain personal health issues.
My personal take is that they did what kept them solvent and me fed while making even more logical choices lately. Reminds me of when OHSA kicked in and my work mates threw away their hearing protection after the company gave it out but didn't enforce actually using it. I suppose they do have federal contracts for supplying foods that went unmentioned in the article.
While anecdotal comments are interesting here, they are so far from scientific usefulness I'll not choose them for my decisions.
As mentioned above- I too, appreciate the thoughtfully allowed admin's inclusion of certain political information herein as it otherwise makes impossible a realistic discussion of the topic.
BTW, I'm seriously tired of TV news showing people getting stuck with needles and little vaccine bottles rattling along in medical factories. ::) Thank God for my remote and DVR.
And getting over the COVID infection sometimes is never over. Lots of COVID survivor testimony from young people that said they have never gotten over it. Not a thing to do with the vaccine, at that point hadn't been available. Posted video of testimonies way back in the thread somewhere. ;D
I just don't understand "some" people, like a few of my relatives, and I'm positive there are others.
They absolutely refuse to get the COVID vaccination, but soon as the shingles vaccine was available, they were right out there getting it.
Now they go get this vaccine to relieve pain and some suffering, but won't get the vaccine that can keep them alive!
Guess you might just call this my "VENT" session!
with all the hubub. when non vaccinated folks get sick and come to the ED, they are quite proud of themselves until they test positive. Then they look down and apologize. We are nice and say it is your decision. Then when we tell them to go home and isolate themselves, they cannot believe we do not have a fix for them. there are risks and benefits to all sides. each individual should be able to decide for themselves with out pressure from either pro or anti vax "extremes". there are humans that would prob. agree to the vaccine, if they had not already been bullied and dug their heels in.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 05, 2021, 09:28:35 AMthere are humans that would prob. agree to the vaccine, if they had not already been bullied and dug their heels in.
I think that is fairly accurate along with a better track record for the treatment and more honesty about the side effect including death.
But those same folks who apologize had the exact same odds of getting sick had they submitted to the jab. So the logic makes no sense to me.
not the same, as the chance of getting very sick or dying is less. Our community is about 50% vaccinated, and 9 out of 10 positive results, are non-vaccinated. of course if 100% were vaccinated, then by definition, any + cases would all be vaccinated. this is where the data was taken to make it look like the + cases were higher in vaccinated people. with your logic, then 50% of + tests should be also be in vaccinated. so you can still get a + test, i.e. get infected, but it is less likely, or the degree of symptoms is enough less, that they do not come to the ED for evaluation. It is sad, as they are horrified when we tell them. they ask what do we do now, and we say, not much, unless you qualify for the monoclonal antibody. or if ill, in the hospital for steroids and antiviral. Pfizer's new oral is supposed to be 94% effective. I feel bad sending people home with nothing until they return so ill that they needed admitted, and then get the antiviral meds. effective means lesson the symptoms and chance of dying.
Doc - not trying to arge with you on this but if you are sending them home, then they are not very sick, so the treatement appears to be the same for folks with either status presenting with the same conditions.
Our numbers here have remained relatively constant when comparing hospital rates with vax rates. Those hospitalized with Covid that are already vaccinated have amounted to about 20% of the total cases. Today, occupation rate was in a bold headline: 89% are not vaccinated. In smaller print, the number of active cases(considered still infectious) is way down. Maybe we've turned the corner, no wait, it's a circle game exercise. The merry go round keeps going around. 3rd dose, 4th? 5th?
young people do better. some go home on O2 with monitors, to come back when they need CPAP and then poss. ventilation. old people die with a minor illness, some young people die of pneumonitis or complications of clotting and or inflammation. still many vaccinated people who get it are not sick enough to know and or to come to the hospital. there seems to be regret with some who get diagnosed and chose not to get the shot. they prob. think we are judging, but we try not to. i do feel it is each persons right to decide for themselves. the prob. is if they make the decision based on BS, in either direction. all good @Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297)
most deaths are 1 month after diagnosis. so the disease progresses. throw in a weak heart, and failing kidneys and there you go. Just got word last night that a classmate died yesterday of covid. Not close so do not know about underlying stuff. 61 seems old till you get to be 61. I remember going to his 5th or 6th y/o BD party in grade school. His parents owned the DQ in Concordia, Ks. His dad was building a house up the hill from the DQ, and they lived in the basement while building the upper story. He got shocked and died when Brian was in HS. He has a twin sister. Becky.
So you have no other weapons in your arsenal to combat covid other than a vaccine? None?
Keeping all ones eggs in one basket is not a good plan.
the emergency use authorization set the limits of when and how these drugs are used. we cannot use the monoclonal on an admitted patient, and cannot use the antivirals on folks until they need to be admitted. almost every hospital in our area of states has been on diversion. we often are keeping admitted people in the ED for 12 hours before a bed becomes available. So we do not admit you just cause you have it. we would like the choice to treat with either or both. It does not do any good to use sunscreen after you are in the burn unit. Wesley has housed about 18 patients at any given time in the ED for the last 3 months. the other weapons to prevent over whelming the hospitals is the mitigation. you may think it does not work, but we saw virtually no RSV (children) or influenzae last year. The only thing different were people washing, masking, and distancing, including staying home. once you are a ventilator, we are just trying to keep you alive long enough for your body to recover, although it will likely never be the same. PE, stroke, heart attack, heart failure, renal failure, and secondary pneumonia. young people have more reserve, and are more likely to survive. the new orals are good so we can start treating as outpatients, and slow it down sooner, before the immune system get so revved up.
@Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) I am typically answering questions. so if you bring up vaccine, I try to address that question. did that answer your question? :)
While sending people home with Covid for quarantine if they are not sick enough to warrant hospitalization takes place regardless of vaccination status, the risk of patients requiring hospitalization, an ICU stay, or death is much greater in the non-vaccinated. That difference is the protective nature of the vaccine. So when you state that the "treatment" for both the vaccinated and non vaccinated is the same, that is only true when patients present with "outpatient" illness, and does not factor in the potential need for additional care after that ER visit. When they require further, more supportive inpatient treatment, the non-vaccinated patients far outweigh those that are vaccinated.The data regarding that difference is irrefutable and has been posted on this thread from multiple sources.
To Paul's comment, I firmly believe that we cannot vaccinate our way out of this and better treatments of the illness are needed. However, the vaccine does a pretty good job of preventing severe illness and death right now, especially compared to the non-vaccinated. The MAB's have been successful, but are not as widely used as they should be. So we shoot the arrows we have in our quiver. More treatments are coming.
Paul there is medication just hitting the market in the UK and soon here. Says close to 100% effective against severe illness and hospitalization, that's the claim. I think it's $700 a 'course', 5 or 6 days of pills. Merck is the maker. Pfizer has one waiting approval to.
Last 1/3rd of video mentions it.
Boosters and antivirals - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgidBCS2Nic)
Released figures today for vaccination status pertaining to hospitalization and ICU since Aug 1, 2021, in New Brunswick. Rate per 100,000 people.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/NB_Hosp-ICU-Nov2021.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636136462)
Deceased per 100,000 by vaccination status in NB.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/NB_deceased-Nov2021.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636136672)
….with a average age of 83.8 at death, from “covid” in Canada, at that age there is a lot that could easily cause problems. That is just the average ,HALF of the deaths from Covid in Canada were over 83.8 years
Definitely old age and comorbidity factors in the elderly a big factor in deaths. Keep in mind to, we have a lot of older folks in the population. Compare those deaths with the demographic. ;)
Deaths in the US stratified by age: (#'s rounded off)
Total Covid deaths: 750,000
Age at death:
< 50 yo: 50,000
50- 85 yo: 500,000
> 85 yo: 200,000
Average age 78
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/ (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/)
This did "covid" kill them or was it a underling issue debate has puzzled me. To me if you have "covid" and you die as a result of the havoc the illness causes your body then it a covid death. The body may be weak to begin with but if you would still be alive if you didn't catch covid, then it's a covid death. Otherwise if I have cancer but get hit and killed by a bus cause I was too ill to get across the road quick enough, the death certificate should say that cancer was the cause of death.
Quote from: Ricker on November 05, 2021, 07:52:04 PMThis did "covid" kill them or was it a underling issue debate has puzzled me
That is a fair question.
But US has recorded about 700,000 more deaths (From All causes) during the outbreak than would normally be expected, and over 2020 the average life expectancy in the US dropped by 18 months. Mostly due to Covid, plus some increase in drug deaths.
So that suggests that many of the people that died weren't "One foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel", Some were living their last days in a rest home of course, and their death wasn't unexpected. If it wasn't that day it would be in the next 5 months etc.
But there was a significant number that died prematurely. If they were due to die in 2020, then there wouldn't be excess deaths. Was that 5 years, 10 years, 20 years early? Simply being 80 years old doesn't mean you are likely to die tomorrow. Being diabetic or having high blood pressure doesn't mean you WILL die this year, or at least I sure hope it doesn't.
I think if you averaged things out, Covid-19 has, on average, stolen 1 year of life for every person in the US. Most got lucky. But a significant number lost 10, 20 , 50 years.
Quote from: Paul_H on November 05, 2021, 01:30:53 PM
So you have no other weapons in your arsenal to combat covid other than a vaccine? None?
Keeping all ones eggs in one basket is not a good plan.
The vaccine is the fence at the top of the cliff.
The Covid treatments are the ambulance at the bottom.
The fence at the top isn't perfect, but if it stops 9 out of 10 falling off the cliff, it's still worth having there. Maybe we need a better fence and some more warning signs? But you don't scrap the fence and rely on the ambulances.
Viral infections are historically hard to treat, because the virus is not technically alive. It's hard to "poison" it, like you can with bacteria. The only tricky part with bacteria is finding something that's more poison to the bacteria than it is to the patient. To fight a virus you need specific molecules that will attach to virus particles, bind them up, and stop them reproducing before your immune system cleans them up.
The vaccine basically trains your immune system to do this The Antibody treatments just inject the patient with the antibody molecules that their immune system would eventually produce anyway. Hopefully that slows the virus spread and gives the patient's own immune system more time to kick in. It's a useful treatment, because it puts a "handicap" on the virus, hopefully keeps the patient alive until they can fight off the virus themselves. Might be a 50/50 thing, but useful.
I think the new antivirals that are currently being released have a specific chemical molecule that binds with the Covid virus, and inhibits it ability to infect a new cell. But is that any safer than something that triggers your own immune system to do the same thing? That chemical interaction could interfere with some other important body function. So it's not safe to say these treatments have zero side effects, although it seems they are safer than untreated Covid. A bit like the vaccine is a LOT less risky than catching Covid.
I'm all for the Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff having the best treatment available for those unlucky enough to miss the fence (and the ones that ignored the warning signs). But it should be actual medicine, and it would still be better not to fall off the cliff in the first place.
Quote from: HemlockKing on November 05, 2021, 02:28:38 PM
....with a average age of 83.8 at death, from "covid" in Canada, at that age there is a lot that could easily cause problems. That is just the average ,HALF of the deaths from Covid in Canada were over 83.8 years
Small statistical point....
If you have an average age of death at 83.8 years, it does not mean that half of the people who died were older than 83.8 years and the other half was younger. It means that, when averaging the AGE of all people who died, the average age was 83.8. If you had a higher percentage of much older people who died, hypothetically, at age 95, the average age of death could still be 83.8, but the 50th percentile of people who died, called the MEDIAN, would be lower. So the Median is the point at which 50% of a group falls below a data point, with 50% falling on the other side of that data point. Now, this statistics stuff doesn't take away from HemlockKing's point....which is that the deaths occur in older individuals. My post is merely a statistical tweak to understand the difference between the average of something and the median of that same thing. Bored yet?
Here's an extreme example:
Let's say you are looking at the lifespan of goldfish You study 10 goldfish from birth until death. They die at the following times in years:
1,1,1,1,2,3,9,9,9,10 years. The
average lifespan is 4.6 years (Add up the death years and divide by 10) The MEDIAN duration of life is, however, smaller, at about 2.5 years, as 50% of the goldfish died prior to the 3rd year, and 50% died after that point. Is this at all helpful?
In most large samples, the median and the average calculations are pretty close, but are usually not identical. I apologize for trying to be statistically correct. Carry on!
We had Covid picked up in the town wastewater this week, so chances are it's now here. No one has tested positive yet, but the drive up testing station at the the hall is open, and there is a vaccine van at the supermarket to catch up with the stragglers that haven't got the vaccine yet.
We are in that messy time where most of the population is vaccinated, but the virus is still circulating. mostly in the vaccine holdouts.
The local health board isn't as inventive as the Auckland ones. They have painted up busses with "Shot Bro", and "Jabba Waka" in 10 ft tall street art. We just get a small rental RV with a "Get your vaccine here" flag on a pole outside :D They did have some customers though, just hope they haven't left it too late.
Some more talk on injection along with some positive injection testimonials and countries who have been aspirating may possibly be using data to study the effects. Since no one has, just made assertions at this point. If so, hasn't been published.
Incorrect vaccination? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsACTX0_ihs)
I always like to look at the median, an actual number, that holds equal weight on either side. Especially with statistics that look at income. Averaging income is pretty useless with an up tick toward the higher incomes, since the upper class has few people and hold most the wealth. You'll find a median can be a heck of a lot different than an average on data that begins gradual with very slight increases until near the end where it jumps sharply. The shape of the line is more telling than an average figure to begin with. ::)
median red is 3, average blue is 50 with data sorted from lowest to highest income. X axis is nth person in the sorting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/median-average-income.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636191865)
The new medicine coming online, from what I here is only useful in the early stages when symptoms begin. Not when your in a very bad way, too late. And it affects the viral genetics, some doctors are concerned it may cause human cell mutations. How specific is it about just hitting the virus?
Quote from: Ricker on November 05, 2021, 07:52:04 PM
This did "covid" kill them or was it a underling issue debate has puzzled me. To me if you have "covid" and you die as a result of the havoc the illness causes your body then it a covid death. The body may be weak to begin with but if you would still be alive if you didn't catch covid, then it's a covid death. Otherwise if I have cancer but get hit and killed by a bus cause I was too ill to get across the road quick enough, the death certificate should say that cancer was the cause of death.
So because a very small group of people(in the grand picture)who are already over the average life expectancy might i add happens to catch covid and it's all they needed to tip over the edge, we the MASSIVE majority should give up freedoms? Have vaccine mandates? All the damage from the responses themselves? "But you have a choice!" . Sure. Someone who has a family and kids to support has a "choice" to drop their income and therefore have support for their family crumble, obviously most people aren't going to do that, it is forced.
I have elderly in my life I love dearly, and from now on will even avoid trying to pass a common sniffles cold onto them, mask etc, I would totally be getting a vaccine at any senior age.
Losing our freedoms over this isn't justified, we're normalizing this kind of control, like we didn't have enough already.
Kids aren't even at risk for covid and they have them all getting shots now, that one has me scratching my
Head, because what's it matter to them? They can spread it vaccinated or
Unvaccinated. Why take the risk
To make children guineas
Quote from: doc henderson on November 05, 2021, 09:28:35 AM
with all the hubub. when non vaccinated folks get sick and come to the ED, they are quite proud of themselves until they test positive. Then they look down and apologize. We are nice and say it is your decision. Then when we tell them to go home and isolate themselves, they cannot believe we do not have a fix for them. there are risks and benefits to all sides. each individual should be able to decide for themselves with out pressure from either pro or anti vax "extremes". there are humans that would prob. agree to the vaccine, if they had not already been bullied and dug their heels in.
An extremely popular & successful (state champions x 2 etc,) teacher, football and wrestling coach died a few weeks back. He's from my wife's home county so we took note of his death. He was unvaccinated per his wife's post funeral comments. She also said he much regretted his choice to not vaccinate.
People who work in close proximity to many others it would seem they'd have a different take on vaccination?
Those few that I've heard their spiel said they figured the rest of us could vaccinate and be safe and OK while they did what they wanted to do by not being pressured to get the shot themselves.
I wonder how many parents have done their kids regular vaccinations but abstained from their own covid shots? My nearest neighbor with 5 sons they object religiously to covid shots but he's a state cop and her a public grade school teacher. I'm friends with his Dad who has been very angry they don't vaccinate for covid so I hear about it still.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 05, 2021, 01:43:09 PM
@Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) I am typically answering questions. so if you bring up vaccine, I try to address that question. did that answer your question? :)
Doc here's a timely vaccine question:
I always get the seasonal flu vaccination but have not as yet, nor have I had a covid-19 Moderna (probably) booster yet. Are there concerns for doing both shots near the same time, or not an issue for our immune systems?
Your correct that 61 doesn't "feel old" IMO either, but my current age does but it also isn't allowed to dominate my lifestyle-knock on wood. I just keep on getting repaired, lucky me... 8)
Not the Doc but my wife and I did both 2 weeks ago and am still here to type this! ;D We both had a sore arm a day or two and I had a slight headache at the base of my skull and temples for about a day. That was handled with some over the counter meds.
Quote from: Ianab on November 05, 2021, 11:02:35 PM
The vaccine is the fence at the top of the cliff.
The Covid treatments are the ambulance at the bottom.
The cliff was formed by arrogant men that were playing god in a lab and they continue to do so and that was quickly excused and forgotten. Instead of a fence near a cliff I was asking about a path away from the bloody cliff because lemmings tend to spill over cliffs one after another.
What I was asking the Doctors was if there are other ways beside the vaccine and was it a good idea to only have a fence and the answer was no it isn't and yes we are working on other ways.
Remember Colin Powell and others broke through the fence and plummeted over the cliff. The fence is getting flimsy quickly
Quote from: doctorb on November 05, 2021, 11:35:37 PM
In most large samples, the median and the average calculations are pretty close, but are usually not identical. I apologize for trying to be statistically correct. Carry on!
So...
A physicist, a biologist and a statistician go hunting.
They are hiding together in the bushes and they see a deer 70ft ahead of them. The physicist makes some calculations, aims and fires at the deer. His shot ends up 5ft to the left of the deer. The biologist analyzes the deer's movement, aims and fires. His shot ends up 5ft to the right of the deer. The statistician drops his rifle and happily shouts, "WE GOT IT!!"
:) :D ;D
A little levity for what has been a very tough topic, but so very informative. A very big thanks to all the medical oriented folks who have helped out providing some context to much of the information floating around. Your time and effort is very much appreciated!!
Canadian deaths from COVID 19 by age group, up to Oct 29, 2021.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/COVID-deaths-age-Oct29.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636213225)
Some countries under report deaths, even western countries including those in NA. Shocking? Not really. :D
Quote from: Paul_H on November 06, 2021, 10:04:57 AM
Remember Colin Powell and others broke through the fence and plummeted over the cliff. The fence is getting flimsy quickly
Colin Powell, who was 84 years old, had multiple myeloma, a rare blood cancer that weakens the immune system, increases the risk of severe COVID-19 and reduces vaccine effectiveness. He also had prostate cancer in 2003 and was being treated for early-stage Parkinson's disease, according to his longtime assistant Peggy Cifrino.Many people online nevertheless jumped on the news, erroneously concluding that Powell's death was evidence that the COVID-19 vaccines don't work.Colin Powell did not have the strength left to break thru any fences.
I think they would have counted it if he was unvaxxed. And I wonder why they would have even vaccinated one so close to the grave?
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 06, 2021, 11:43:43 AM
Canadian deaths from COVID 19 by age group, up to Oct 29, 2021.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/COVID-deaths-age-Oct29.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636213225)
Some countries under report deaths, even western countries including those in NA. Shocking? Not really. :D
I believe what your graph shows us is that all the efforts should have and should still be focused on the 70+ age group. We should have sent food to thier door so they did not have to go out. We should not be locking down society as the reprocusions are huge in suicides, starvation ( way more still to come) drug and alchohol adictions, which lead to more suicides, child and domestic abuse, which will lead to more suicides. The economic destruction is still to come, we are on the tip of the iceburg right now with our supply chains, crashing and driving up costs as we head to stagflatation.
Okay here's a serious question, I got my 2nd Phizer April 7 then turned 65 in June. Should I get my booster, or wait until my next wellness check. Last time they gave me the flu vaccine and TDAP. I know when I take my dog to the vet she gets a metal disc.
Quote from: Paul_H on November 06, 2021, 12:16:40 PM
And I wonder why they would have even vaccinated one so close to the grave?
A fatalistic and potentially callous query, in my opinion. His family might have a terse answer to your question. The medical answer is that we protect those that are most vulnerable. It's what we do.
Fact is like I said when this whole thing was heating up they will box you in eventually if your not getting vaccinated. We are definitely seeing that now. Insurance companies are starting to say you won't be covered if you don't get vaccinated. This is going to be a party for the insurance companies because they are going to tie it in to any and every ailment if you have have covid. The plans have been working well for the government. Beat the drum so anybody and everybody gets the jab. Then push hard everywhere to have requirements to have proof of being vaccinated before you can get in or go anywhere. What about all the people vaccinated that are getting covid??. Why is it a threat to anybody else if they are vaccinated??. Keep your mouth shut and conform!! NOT!! 😂
Quote from: doctorb on November 06, 2021, 09:31:25 PM
A fatalistic and potentially callous query, in my opinion. His family might have a terse answer to your question. The medical answer is that we protect those that are most vulnerable. It's what we do.
I was hoping for that reply because it's the same one the unvaccinated have put forth for months now because there are many that wish us ill out loud almost daily. Thank you DrB from the bottom of my heart I've been waiting all day :)
Back in June you promised me you would stand up for the unvaccinated if ever violence was done to them and I think people losing their jobs and homes through governmental coercion is getting mighty close to that. Maybe it's time.
5th Circuit court just stopped the jab mandate dead in it's tracks. Just the Facts
Quote from: Southside on November 06, 2021, 11:37:16 PM
5th Circuit court just stopped the jab mandate dead in it's tracks. Just the Facts
Got more info on that?
Federal Court Blocks Biden Administration?s Private Business COVID-19 Vaccine Mandate (https://www.theepochtimes.com/federal-court-blocks-biden-administrations-private-business-covid-19-vaccine-mandate_4089942.html?utm_source=sharenewsnoe)
Thank you Paul.
Paul -
I don't see how my reply changes anything I've said before. As physicians we try and treat illness and protect from it. I have never been for mandates, and I agree (and have stated here previously) that you have a choice. I do understand the position of health care providers and their employers regarding mandates, as they are caught between a rock and a hard place. I am against the feds telling private businesses what to do, yet, the reality is that they have been doing that for a long, long time.
I protested loudly a decade ago when my employer said that I must have a flu shot. But I agree that nurses and physicians who work in areas with immune compromised patients, like cancer centers and ICU's, should have them. I feel the same about the Covid vaccine.
I am amused at the joy you expressed in reading my previous post. The reality is that, the choice to not get vaccinated has an accompanying responsibility on the part of the individual. Again, it is my opinion, but I believe a significant portion of those exercising that choice do not wear masks, do not distance, and do not refrain from indoor crowds. I don't like government mandates and I feel you should have a choice whether to get vaccinated. I do not feel that the unvaccinated should act as if life is back to 2019. Choice has consequences. So if one feels persecuted because one chooses not to get the vaccine, maybe the responsibility part of the equation has something to do with it. Going out in public, there is little confidence that the behavior portion of the "choice" is being taken seriously. My disappointment in this regard does not equate to wishing you, or anybody else, ill.
Per the CDC director herself, along with many other studies, the jab does not prevent transmission, nor does it prevent disease. Why do you feel someone who has not been jabbed should wear masks, distance, and otherwise alter their behavior via social isolation? They are not any more likely to pass on infection than someone who has been jabbed.
The only potential argument one could make is that they are potentially endangering themselves, completely ignoring natural immunity in the conclusion.
Following that logic, science would be able to dictate what one can eat, how long they are outside, what they can weigh, and how much they exercise, again completely ignoring natural genetics.
Quote from: Southside on November 07, 2021, 08:07:36 AM
Per the CDC director herself, along with many other studies, the jab does not prevent transmission, nor does it prevent disease. Why do you feel someone who has not been jabbed should wear masks, distance, and otherwise alter their behavior via social isolation? They are not any more likely to pass on infection than someone who has been jabbed.
From what I have read and heard it's not that it totally prevents it but the vax greatly reduces the chance of getting or transmitting so the un-vaxed pose a greater risk of getting or transmitting. It is a percentage thing, the vax has never been said to be 100% but it is quite a bit better than 0% protection.
Quote from: Paul_H on November 06, 2021, 10:04:57 AM
Quote from: Ianab on November 05, 2021, 11:02:35 PM
The vaccine is the fence at the top of the cliff.
The Covid treatments are the ambulance at the bottom.
The cliff was formed by arrogant men that were playing god in a lab and they continue to do so and that was quickly excused and forgotten. Instead of a fence near a cliff I was asking about a path away from the bloody cliff because lemmings tend to spill over cliffs one after another.
What I was asking the Doctors was if there are other ways beside the vaccine and was it a good idea to only have a fence and the answer was no it isn't and yes we are working on other ways.
Remember Colin Powell and others broke through the fence and plummeted over the cliff. The fence is getting flimsy quickly
??? Colin Powell had multiple contributing medical health factors far beyond a simple e.g..
Protects against serious disease and hospitalization percentage wise, not so great with age or other health issues. 100% protection against infection? Nope, at best they said 94% just as the vaccines rolled out. And soon found out within months it goes down hill from there. They had no idea at that stage how long your best chances were sustained (level protection). You're still focused on infections, which the numbers indicate over and over better than 95% of infections recover and mostly unvaccinated and older folks (regardless of vax status) are in hospital by the numbers, and most recover. Here in NB, not 2% have died. If you have 2000 patients in hospitals and only 20 die, that's still 2000 patients. But might be 20,000 infections found through testing and many others not found, those 18,000 are not hospital patients but still patients being tested, but not taking a bed. ;)
Quote from: Southside on November 07, 2021, 08:07:36 AM
The only potential argument one could make is that they are potentially endangering themselves, completely ignoring natural immunity in the conclusion.
Following that logic, science would be able to dictate what one can eat, how long they are outside, what they can weigh, and how much they exercise, again completely ignoring natural genetics.
I am having difficulty following that logic. First there are potentially more than your "only argument" and I don't see how as you seem to imply the unvaxed suddenly gained natural immunity?
Quote from: doctorb on November 07, 2021, 07:18:23 AM
.
I am amused at the joy you expressed in reading my previous post. The reality is that, the choice to not get vaccinated has an accompanying responsibility on the part of the individual. Again, it is my opinion, but I believe a significant portion of those exercising that choice do not wear masks, do not distance, and do not refrain from indoor crowds.
I don't have the same observations as you on the pro choice crowd in fact I posted awhile back that I noticed at work that I could tell who had been vaxxed recently because they would get far too close for my liking ,almost an new found courage. I never did enjoy up close encounters with strangers.
To quote Southside
QuotePer the CDC director herself, along with many other studies, the jab does not prevent transmission, nor does it prevent disease. Why do you feel someone who has not been jabbed should wear masks, distance, and otherwise alter their behavior via social isolation? They are not any more likely to pass on infection than someone who has been jabbed
I've heard that we are to avoid the vaxxed because they shed spike proteins- whether that is true or not I don't know but made a personal decision months ago not to avoid or revile another human based on their vax status.
Gary, my point was that the argument for expecting those who refuse the jab modify their behavior of masking, distancing, etc (all of which by the way the CDC director has said will have to continue post jab but that is a different discussion) does not consider and incorporate those who already have natural immunity as a result of having defeated Covid and therefore are not at any increased risk, over those who have taken the jab, of contracting it. I did not mean to imply that just being un jabbed granted immunity.
Since the jab does not prevent transmission, nor does it prevent disease, the risk of more serious disease (presuming that is accurate for this discussion) is an individual risk, not a society risk. If one wishes to claim that risk causes a burden on society with increased hospital care etc., then the argument goes right to my last line about then allowing the government to dicate food, weight, exercise, etc as science has determined which allowaces of these prevent more serious illness such as heart disease, cancer, etc.
Southside I completely agree that public policy has been deeply flawed in this pandemic and shows no sign of improving. But in the end, anger does not make for good decisions either. At some point we all have to throw out emotions, re-evaluate the situation and make decisions in our own best interests.
I had dinner one night this past week with my granddaughter that just delivered our sixth great grandchild about a month ago and while she is not vaccinated because of the pregnancy she asked me if she should now get vaccinated. She is young and extremely healthy (she is a runner) but as I told her the way things are going everyone is going to eventually get the virus anyway so it would be best to have some protection against severe infection since I have heard many times it very rough to get infection without being vaccinated (or previously being infected.) It's just not worth gambling with poor odds that you will not be severely affected.
Also last night I talked to my brother in Arizona on his 82nd birthday and he told me that his wife had gone alone to a family get together in California and one unvaccinated attendee thought she just had the beginnings of head cold and did not tell anyone. My sister in law came home, came down with symptoms, got tested and was positive. But by that time she had passed it to my brother who also then tested positive and then together they spent two weeks or rather lost two weeks as he described it fighting the infection. Both brother and wife are vaccinated but with both having comorbidities along with their age, the outcome may have been far worse without the vaccine.
I don't like being told I have to wear a seatbelt either but now I don't feel comfortable without it.
One can avoid the use of a seatbelt by not using an automobile. This is more along the lines of just how far will we allow the government to go.
I completely support anyone who wishes to take the jab and hope it helps them, but don't tell me my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are dependent upon an unproven, very controversial, very profitable substance being injected into me.
Pfizer's new antiviral sounds very promising and in the same class of drugs known for 25 years. Not yet peer reviewed.
Highly effective new antiviral - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMfjtgli55Y)
I discovered John Campbel's daily blog quite some time ago, and I follow his posts on youtube. Lots of useful information without all the political bs. Just the facts, just what I need to make rational decisions.
affecting my family, 85 years old, defective heart, brain damage from a stroke, thyroid problems, and a few others.
He's well known to, and not one of the web quack sites that appear because of the internet. He's made videos since the VHS era, teaches and lectures and has been to the far corners of the globe. He's a true scientist without assertions, a skeptic, and knows science shifts with more data or better data. 8)
Quote from: Paul_H on November 07, 2021, 10:05:05 AM
Quote from: doctorb on November 07, 2021, 07:18:23 AM
.
I am amused at the joy you expressed in reading my previous post. The reality is that, the choice to not get vaccinated has an accompanying responsibility on the part of the individual. Again, it is my opinion, but I believe a significant portion of those exercising that choice do not wear masks, do not distance, and do not refrain from indoor crowds.
I don't have the same observations as you on the pro choice crowd in fact I posted awhile back that I noticed at work that I could tell who had been vaxxed recently because they would get far too close for my liking ,almost an new found courage. I never did enjoy up close encounters with strangers.
To quote Southside
QuotePer the CDC director herself, along with many other studies, the jab does not prevent transmission, nor does it prevent disease. Why do you feel someone who has not been jabbed should wear masks, distance, and otherwise alter their behavior via social isolation? They are not any more likely to pass on infection than someone who has been jabbed
I've heard that we are to avoid the vaxxed because they shed spike proteins- whether that is true or not I don't know but made a personal decision months ago not to avoid or revile another human based on their vax status.
I used to work with a guy, a fellow vet who I often wondered how he made it living in close proximity forced on you in military (he was artillery/US Army) and things they do. He's from the same county as Keith Whitley if you know that name in music?
"James" was a custodian and well known for being a school hallway conversationalist as he was quite friendly and did like to talk but in a comical manner he'd dance away from anyone who violated his space.
As a counselor I was trained to recognize and respect the "psychological distance" of others. It varies considerably too. With James some would sort of "push him away" by there hidden agenda to get a laugh from him dancing away as they moved in. It's a human thing.
Another human social "thing" is those who are crowd seekers such as found attending fairs, festivals, music events, so on. My psychological distance gets closer when she's cute FWIW. My need to seek crowds is basically non-existent-maybe why we live back in the woods? :D
I did people fore a living for years so now I (sort of) go the other direction.
Some in this thread may have made inferences that once you are "old", it is ok to die of covid. I remember someone once asked something like "who would want to live to that age", regarding someone that was 91 years old. I said I know who wants to live to be 91.....someone who is 90.
Insert your own age into that equation, and oh, by the way, be sure to get back to us when you're ready to be put away for good! :D
If you are refering to me you are off half a bubble. When Colin Powell died it was reported as a covid death where I saw it. Another member said he was very ill and I questioned why they would give him the shot. It's a good question but one I knew was going to outrage those that love to be outraged.
When my own Mum was dying of alzhiemers a nurse wanted to restrain her because she wandered around the facility at night and he was concerned she would fall and break her hip. We refused the restraint which would have been torture for her and my sister who was a 30+ year RN said if she falls she breaks her hip she will be cared for with no surgery. Mum passed away not long after this peacefully and we knew that would have been her wish as we saw her give the same care to her Aunt that suffered the same disease.
Both of my wife's parent wanted no heroics at the end and would have declined the vaccination. Her mother simply stopped eating and her dad had a series of strokes but was ready to go.
We respected our parents wishes and although we would have loved to have them around longer,know that their wishes are more important.
I've seen a couple on here many months ago allude to the unvaccinated dying is ok and let nature(karma) take it's course.
So if you are saying I think it's ok for the old to perish of covid because they are old you are misguided or....
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QabAtYBnqro (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QabAtYBnqro)
No cuts, no edits, just a senator pressing for answers and getting baloney in response
The Department of Labor, OSHA, has now exempted truck drivers from the jab mandate. So the list of exempted employees per the Federal mandate is Congress and all staff, Federal Judicial System in it's entirety, USPS in it's entirety, State and Municipal employees or other entities that fund via tax monies, companies with under 100 employees, and most every truck driver.
Additionally, the mandate is claiming it's authority under emergency powers so by definition it would expire, if it is able to be revived at all.
Draw your own conclusions as to how this mandate is "based on science".
I sent my manager a note over the weekend reminding him that my job title says "driver" and perhaps he might want to look into making sure the written job description says " non customer facing" I'm 63 and was planning on working 3 more years but i may be forced into retirement on Jan 4th. 🤬
Quote from: Southside on November 07, 2021, 11:54:00 AM
One can avoid the use of a seatbelt by not using an automobile. This is more along the lines of just how far will we allow the government to go.
I completely support anyone who wishes to take the jab and hope it helps them, but don't tell me my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are dependent upon an unproven, very controversial, very profitable substance being injected into me.
As an e.g. of stuff forced on us and a matter of fact, seatbelts were very much objected to by many people back when they came in. Some still avoid them FWIW.
Helmets for riders laws are the same thing and continues to this day more so than seat belts I suspect?
The list of government mandated things is really long and sometimes a hot button issue, other times not so much.
For myself who is often libertarian minded, and dislike government overreach, the shots are just not an issue. I can put the mandate aside easily. People losing their jobs I don't see as proper government roles. Maybe my mind is twisted but thats my take.
Most of my son's engineers don't meet the public but a bunch of them he get's to let go soon for no shots. These are the same engineer's who design the governments "infrastructure projects" which are so much in the news of recent. Federal money ='s get the shot or lose those contracts. They are very hard to find people.
Hmmm, looks like there is evidence that Ivermectin does work.
Dr. John Campbell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufy2AweXRkc&ab_channel=Dr.JohnCampbell)
The anti-viral activity in the laboratory investigations reviewed in the video is real, has been known for some time, and has been demonstrated in multiple studies. Well controlled clinical studies need to demonstrate clinical efficiency of this cheap treatment. My suggestion is to hold onto your hope and wait for clinical verification of these findings. Timing of ivermectin treatment with relation to the start of symptoms or positive testing, dosage of the drug, and whether it can be used widely as a prophylactic treatment to the disease are yet unsolved questions. We all await positive news.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 09, 2021, 05:05:25 PM
Hmmm, looks like there is evidence that Ivermectin does work.
Dr. John Campbell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufy2AweXRkc&ab_channel=Dr.JohnCampbell)
Yes, he has several videos about it and links to the studies. And $0.06 cents per course is a heck of a lot more affordable than $700+ for a new one that targets only one thing versus 6 different things with Ivermectin. Less chance of mutation that will overcome the medication. ;D
Ivermection efficacy was played down from the beginning, can't make money. :D
All those kinds of drugs need taking in the early stages ASAP before you're really hurting from the 'bug'. It stops it from replicating. This would be a real game changer in poor parts of the world, low cost.
it would be great! also since the vaccine only lessons the severity of the disease, and does not prevent infection entirely, I do not see the reason for the mandate. Vaccines that are mandated, are well tested, and prevent infection. the mandate is to protect others. If it only protects you the individual, then it should be your choice. the original goal was to extinguish the disease all together and that is not happening.
Check that. I think that a vaccinated person stops producing and shedding a number of days before an unvaccinated person. I don't know the generational speed of the bug but within a couple of virus generations that would be a large difference in the amount of virus walking around.
I think the vaccine is better than nothing, and I choose to get two shots, and will get the booster soon. I got the flu shot as well. but, the idea that the vaccine will eliminate the disease is not happening. we got rid of small pox as an example with a vaccine. If the disease was uniformly fatal, I would be ok with a mandate. so all I am saying, is I am not sure mandating the vaccine and firing folks is not science, it is politics, I think. Many are still commenting on it, so I just wanted to make that statement. It is working more like the mitigation and reducing severity, and symptoms. It has some side effects, similar to the disease in nature, but overall less severe. we are approaching 2 years, and we are lucky to have the vaccine. It is amazing that it was developed based on technology acquired in the past. My wife is a pharmacist, and I work with several in my job. I am not a pro-pharma guy, but if the big companies were struggling, then they would not have resources to jump on this problem. and yes @Don P (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=17) it reduces shedding. I think if this had not been politicized, we would have more that comply. now there are adds on TV to "get the vaccine", but I think those that have made the decision to not get it, are galvanized by the politics. Our hospital may go with a mandate now, as we receive federal funds (Medicare) and will be required to mandate it for employee's or loose funding. we have been sensible so far. being forced to not be sensible. our big issue now is nursing shortage, and a mandate will make it worse. I think the admin wants to mandate it, and when things get better (for many reasons), they can claim credit. we currently have 4 in the ICU on ventilators. lots of non covid drug shortages.
We just read about a vaccine in trials out of France that has been able to use the dead virus as in what I can consider traditional vaccines.
It will be interesting to see how that developes. We are still a long way from going back to a normal way of being.
The Johnson and Johnson vaccine that has been out for a while is a traditional vaccine. In trials it was only something like 60% effective at preventing disease.
The discussion regarding "naturally acquired" immunity versus immunity from the vaccine continues. Many have assumed that, after resolving a Covid infection, that the resultant immunity is superior in all ways. Here are a few published articles/news reports that question that view.
https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination (https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination).
Review articles of recent investigations.
https://healthfeedback.org/infection-induced-immunity-versus-vaccine-induced-immunity-weighing-the-benefits-and-risks/ (https://healthfeedback.org/infection-induced-immunity-versus-vaccine-induced-immunity-weighing-the-benefits-and-risks/)
This one is more pro-natural immunity
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00676-9/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00676-9/fulltext)
CDC study regarding excellent immunity after vaccination versus natural infection (https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html)
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html (https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html)
Critique of the CDC study that found vaccination provided better immunity.
https://weartv.com/news/coronavirus/experts-identify-potential-bias-in-cdc-natural-immunity-study (https://weartv.com/news/coronavirus/experts-identify-potential-bias-in-cdc-natural-immunity-study)
Most of the evidence that natural infection creates better immunity against Covid comes from a widely read Israeli study. There is no doubt that infection with Covid in the unvaccinated patient creates immunity. Some of the above papers described that this immunity is more inconsistent than that seen after vaccination.
My point in researching this is that the science is continuing to flow. Natural immunity is not necessarily some kind of superior armor against future infections, according to the reviews listed, and, of course, means that you have to take the risk of potentially severe disease to obtain it. So when you hear or read about "natural immunity", not all patients get a superior response. There is more research coming out about this, and any definitive opinion one way or the other is premature. Hold off on your assumptions!
Quote from: doctorb on November 10, 2021, 11:17:27 PMSome of the above papers described that this immunity is more inconsistent than that seen after vaccination. My point in researching this is that the science is continuing to flow
Was reading an article about natural immunity, and it explained how different peoples immune systems could be triggered differently. The body is capable of making millions of different antibody proteins, depending on how a foreign invader triggers different cells in the immune system.
The MRNA vaccines are targeted at one specific protein spike on the virus, the one that it uses to infect a new body cell. So after vaccination you should have that specific antibody. Now people that have beaten the disease might have that antibody, or possibly a combination of different ones, that latch onto different parts of the virus particle. So some people have recovered from Covid, but don't test positive for the normal antibody. They obviously have some antibody that works against the virus, or they would be dead. It's just not the "expected" one, and is what they have more or less effective?
I suspect that would explain the "inconsistent" natural immunity? Possibly also explains the wide range of symptoms, ranging from nothing, to dead. It's mostly a matter of luck which antibody cocktail your body comes up with in response to the virus, some may work better, or last longer. Of course the vaccine antibodies are also inconsistent, some people are able to dodge an infection completely, while some still get quite sick.
So it's comparing 1 inconsistent thing, with another inconsistent thing. Impossible to really predict, and you will only know after lots of sample observation.
I had just viewed a story on 60 Minutes Australia's site about a new vaccine there. I think it was a story from a few months back. I went looking for it again yesterday and the story seems to have been pulled. Doesn't even show up in my history of views. Youtube has the power to make stuff disappear. :D
I'd be VERY surprised if there isn't 100 new vaccine candidates being developed and in early stages of testing around the World right now.
But they don't make for good headlines on the News, and Google etc has their own algorithms about news.
So even with massive resources thrown behind it, a new vaccine takes ~12 months to get tested and approved. (and that is FAST). And that's still longer than the average news attention span.
"Remember that new Aussie vaccine we talked about 3 months ago? It's now into Phase II testing". Yeah, that's a headline right there. ::)
I don't believe we were working on any here. Prime Minister Harper shut down a lot of research centres. Not someone very science minded. A lot of the researchers at the very beginning of vaccine talk where quick to point it out to the media.
Here is one I have heard of.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/medicago-montreal-covid-vaccine-1.6031176 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/medicago-montreal-covid-vaccine-1.6031176)
Appears to be the only one, but still in trials, and facilities to mass produce it have not been built.
there is an immediate and contributing diagnosis. we all die of cardio pulmonary arrest. but that is too general. that is how we pronounce most death, even brain death, is not given a time till the heart stops, except for poss. organ donation. It can be hard to determine. in your example. cause of death might be blunt force trauma, splenic rupture, lung cancer contributing.
Quote from: Ianab on November 11, 2021, 03:15:50 AM
I'd be VERY surprised if there isn't 100 new vaccine candidates being developed and in early stages of testing around the World right now.
But they don't make for good headlines on the News, and Google etc has their own algorithms about news.
So even with massive resources thrown behind it, a new vaccine takes ~12 months to get tested and approved. (and that is FAST). And that's still longer than the average news attention span.
"Remember that new Aussie vaccine we talked about 3 months ago? It's now into Phase II testing". Yeah, that's a headline right there. ::)
Plenty more in development for sure
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.html
How to spread Covid in one easy lesson....
Find your Sister is living in Auckland, where Covid is currently circulating, and is feeling sick.
Drive 4 hours each way, bypassing border controls for all but "essential" workers, and bring her "home'.
Don't get vaccinated...
Don't use the contract tracing app on your phone, or even the manual sign in.
Infect the rest of your family.
Ignore the requests to get tested when the virus shows up in the town waste water for a week.
Go to the pharmacy 3 times in 3 days for "flu" medicine.
Call ambulance when Dad can't breath, but refuse a test until the police arrive and tell you it's a Public Health Order.
Now all 6 people in the house have tested positive...
Good news? 3 of them are children, but haven't been at school or kindy, and are probably going to be OK. The hospital patient is well enough to go home.
I don't wish them harm, but they did everything they could to spread the virus. Like, we know that the virus is eventually going to reach here, but it didn't need that sort of knucklehead help. Of course their names haven't been made public, but it's a small town, so it's not a secret. But I'm not rushing round there with torches and pitchforks. Just disappointed.
We are now at 81% fully vaccinated, and 90% have had at least one shot. At 90% fully vaccinated restrictions are supposed to ease. But chances are there will still be cases, and some deaths. But we are in that messy almost vaccinated / need to open up businesses area.
Summer should help too, less virus transmission and all that.
I've seen several graphs and they demonstrate numbers of individuals infected between the two vaccination groups, and the shape of the curve for the two groups is the same. But the gap between is huge, a lot more of the unvaccinated. This data is from the UK where they test a lot more than here in USA/Canada population wise. It shows that the two groups parallel one another, an uptick in one group means the same going on in the other. But of course you have a lot more people who were vaccinated, so reducing infection for sure, but not preventing spread or the vaccinated line would not be climbing, it would be steady or falling off if it were the case. The area between the blue line and the red line is people unvaccinated and infected. The area between the red line and the x axis is volume of people vaccinated and infected.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/UK_COVID19_Cases.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1636887174)
Quote from: Ianab on November 14, 2021, 03:48:55 AMBut I'm not rushing round there with torches and pitchforks
Are you suggesting that it would be better to leave ones family member in harms way because a politician told you so? Testing waste water, police checkpoints, phone tracing, and business closures - perhaps if freedom was respected more then folks would be more willing to cooperate.
Taking the approach that "the beatings will continue until morale improves" isn't going to convince those who have yet to take the jab, rather it will have the opposite impact.
since the vaccine does not prevent infection in the future, then it is not going to stop spread. so I do not think a mandate is needed since it only protects the individual overall, and not the community as a whole. the original hope was we could shut down the disease and it would be a one and done. Now we know that it mostly will reduce your chance of being very sick and or dying of the disease. but, if you are sick and refuse to mitigate (recklessly endangering others) then I think that is an issue. We have charged patients who are known by us and them to have Hepatitis and they are spitting in the faces of police and healthcare people, and they are charged with attempted murder. they got off as they had drug, alcohol and mental health issues. but they are clearly a danger to society in general. It is one thing to decline a vaccine and get sick, but then you have a responsibility to not endanger others. that is where the hospitals come in and feel that a sick health care person could infect many. My good friends in NY closed their practice to unvaccinated patients. People thought they were crazed pro-vac doctors. It was more that they took care of very ill patients, and a kid with chicken pox sitting in the waiting area, could kill one of their at risk patients (cancer on chemo).
they ended up on the Today show.
I know you are opposed to mandates Doc and appreciate it.
This quote from Zuby (rapper?) kind of sums up a lot of the hesitancy aside from government over reach
QuoteSimultaneously trying to sell the 3rd and 4th shots to people who took the first two or three whilst trying to sell the 1st one as highly effective to people who've taken none is a bold strategy
That is why I'm thankful for the availability of drugs for the initial attack of the virus alongside of healthier lifestyle choices including fighting obesity and diabetes.
A freedom comment got me to wondering if there is a freedom rating for countries so I googled it, results that were found from Freedom index by country 2021.
The ten countries with the highest human freedom indexes (the freest countries in the world (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freest-countries)) are:
Sure scary that the freest countries are giving it up so fast. Australia is doing some head bashing and skull fracturing right now. I keep hearing politicians talk about a reset and I don't like what I see right now. Maybe part of the reset is deleting the Constitutions of these free countries seeing a lot of folks are willing to do so.
Here are a couple fellas looking after Granny
74 Yr Old Woman Tackled And Pepper Sprayed By Australia Police - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP1AFRJ3asI)
Quote from: Hilltop366 on November 15, 2021, 12:09:41 PM
A freedom comment got me to wondering if there is a freedom rating for countries so I googled it, results that were found from Freedom index by country 2021.
The ten countries with the highest human freedom indexes (the freest countries in the world (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freest-countries)) are:
-
China is #3 on the list. NZ came out last week and told schools to call the poice if "un jabbed" show up at the school. Anyone can make some snappy graphs and create lists, saw it on the internet so it must be true.
Perception is everything. There's no place I'd rather live than where I am. It ain't half bad when I know there are far worst places. :D
Perception reminds me of the frog in the pot of water and set on the fire. "ah,the water's fine "
-
Please remember this isn't the political thread :-\
Quote from: Ianab on November 14, 2021, 03:48:55 AM
How to spread Covid in one easy lesson....
Find your Sister is living in Auckland, where Covid is currently circulating, and is feeling sick.
Drive 4 hours each way, bypassing border controls for all but "essential" workers, and bring her "home'.
Don't get vaccinated...
Don't use the contract tracing app on your phone, or even the manual sign in.
Infect the rest of your family.
Ignore the requests to get tested when the virus shows up in the town waste water for a week.
Go to the pharmacy 3 times in 3 days for "flu" medicine.
Call ambulance when Dad can't breath, but refuse a test until the police arrive and tell you it's a Public Health Order.
Now all 6 people in the house have tested positive...
Good news? 3 of them are children, but haven't been at school or kindy, and are probably going to be OK. The hospital patient is well enough to go home.
I don't wish them harm, but they did everything they could to spread the virus. Like, we know that the virus is eventually going to reach here, but it didn't need that sort of knucklehead help. Of course their names haven't been made public, but it's a small town, so it's not a secret. But I'm not rushing round there with torches and pitchforks. Just disappointed.
We are now at 81% fully vaccinated, and 90% have had at least one shot. At 90% fully vaccinated restrictions are supposed to ease. But chances are there will still be cases, and some deaths. But we are in that messy almost vaccinated / need to open up businesses area.
Summer should help too, less virus transmission and all that.
Ianab, That is why we will never eradicate this disease. We will never stop the spread. I believed Larry Brilliant last year when I heard his TED talk on calling a pandemic and the worst thing we could do was lock down the world. The human suffering and economic destruction will be felt for a very long time. It will be far worse that a few people dying from the disease.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ObTAOvgd_JE (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ObTAOvgd_JE)
Thought this was a good video by Dr. Campbell
The numbers from today's paper in our county. 67% vaccinated, which includes one or two or maybe even three shots at this point. About 8% of the county population has had it, and just less than .001% (1 in a 1000) of the total population has died from it (351 deaths of 377,000). So, generalizing, about 30,000 cases, just over 1.2% mortality rate for those who have had it. And current hospital rates are showing 15-20% are vaxxed, 80-85% are not. Just the facts.
Quote from: Paul_H on November 15, 2021, 12:50:45 PM
Perception reminds me of the frog in the pot of water and set on the fire. "ah,the water's fine "
I figure it hasn't gotten bad enough yet, because you're voting for the same people to be in charge. ;)
Tell me how I voted because what you're implying is off the mark in fact not even close. I wrote an email to my MP telling him why I wouldn't vote for him. Vote split be danged
Quote from: Paul_H on November 15, 2021, 03:06:42 PM
Tell me how I voted because what you're implying is off the mark in fact not even close
Figure of speech. Since I see the same ones running things: we, you, them, us, me all together keep voting for the wrong people when the ballots are tallied up. ;)
True and why it's more important than ever to get involved in ones local community and even in our own neighbourhoods.
I don't want to get into trouble here as I again feel this topic has gone astray again. But what I will say is opposition to the mandate should not be the best argument against getting vaccinated.
You are correct Gary, it is a medical choice made by the individual, which ironically is what created the opposition to the mandate.
I understand that argument, but if the virus is spreading out of control, people are going to react to that, with or without a mandate.
Right now our town / province isn't under any increased alert level. Everything is open (although some number restrictions etc). But town is pretty dead. Many people aren't going out as there is still some uncertainty about the local cases. It's just natural caution. If no more cases appear over the week, then everyone will relax and go back to normal.
The main economic disruption here in NZ has been to tourism. But that was going to stop no matter what you called the disease outbreak. Insurance Companies would have called it a "known risk" and not covered it under your travel insurance. Need 2 weeks ICU care in a foreign country? You are on your own with that. Would you have planned a vacation to Italy in the early stages of the outbreak? Of course not.
Quote from: Southside on November 15, 2021, 07:37:13 AMAre you suggesting that it would be better to leave ones family member in harms way because a politician told you so?
Thing is she actually DID put her family in real harms way by ignoring health advice.
She caught Covid, her 3 kids caught Covid, and her husband needed hospital care for it.
Now I'm glad he's now out of hospital, and hope they all recover, and sure as heck hope they haven't passed it on to others in our community that are more at risk.
Now if she had been vaccinated, and gone to Auckland to look after her Sister, still caught Covid there, been tested and isolated at home there, I would have lots more sympathy. Instead they ignore pretty much EVERY measure to limit the virus spread. Yeah, that will show the "man".
There is "freedom" and there is stupidity.
Ian, everyone is going to catch Covid, nothing anyone can do to prevent that.
Cody a.k.a WranglerStar recently got COVID and is just coming around enough to let everyone know. Anyone who follows his channel already knows. But here's his experience in the first part of the video. There's other stuff that snowballed and he talked about later in the video, but the first part is his COVID experience.
The End... - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsN6rlfKHcQ)
Not to argue Southside, as I am with you, Doc Henderson also, but I really don't think everyone will get Covid as you say. As I stated a little earlier (and the death count here is actually 321, not 351 as I erred) we've had 8% of the county population afflicted(diagnosed) so far in a year and a half of dealing with this. How that can morph to 100% would be quite the jump from 8%.
We have no natural immunity to the virus and the jabs don't prevent infection. Those numbers don't represent every person as many will never be tested, and false positives/negatives/asymptomatic cases skew the statistics.
Getting it, with or without the jab, dosen't mean one will seek treatment, so it never gets recorded.
Quote from: Southside on November 15, 2021, 05:05:52 PM
Ian, everyone is going to catch Covid, nothing anyone can do to prevent that.
Everyone is going to be exposed to Covid at some point. The vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it improves your odds of not being infected. Better vaccines are in the pipeline targeted more at the Delta variant.
Better treatments are also being released that seem to work pretty well at keeping victims out of hospital (and presumably with less long term effects).
So there is certainly a plus side to delaying infections. It might be inevitable, but if it's After a vaccine booster and I can get a pack of Molin-whatsamacallit, then odds are better.
Progress on herd immunity thus far and mention of unvaccinated lock downs underway in Austria.
Disappointments - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz7wGLPOTxg&t=1185s)
Quote from: Hilltop366 on November 15, 2021, 12:09:41 PM
A freedom comment got me to wondering if there is a freedom rating for countries so I googled it, results that were found from Freedom index by country 2021.
The ten countries with the highest human freedom indexes (the freest countries in the world (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freest-countries)) are:
IMO, to a certain extent, the freedom index is sort of like those blurbs that tell me where to live, go on vacation, shop, not shop, best brands, best ice cream, etc., etc., etc...
Quote from: Ianab on November 16, 2021, 01:50:04 AM
Quote from: Southside on November 15, 2021, 05:05:52 PM
Ian, everyone is going to catch Covid, nothing anyone can do to prevent that.
Everyone is going to be exposed to Covid at some point. The vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it improves your odds of not being infected. Better vaccines are in the pipeline targeted more at the Delta variant.
Better treatments are also being released that seem to work pretty well at keeping victims out of hospital (and presumably with less long term effects).
So there is certainly a plus side to delaying infections. It might be inevitable, but if it's After a vaccine booster and I can get a pack of Molin-whatsamacallit, then odds are better.
For curiosity's sake I just googled "how effective is smallpox vaccine" and was told 95%-same as my covid shot. Typhoid says 80% but dtap says higher?, yellow fever 99%, dtap~ 80-90%. I suppose it's about who gets (exposed as stated above) what as too a vaccines effectiveness? Above my pay grade...
My county has 46% vaccination rate.
In the cities, where shot rates are far higher, are people smarter? :D
Quote from: Southside on November 15, 2021, 06:29:47 PM
Those numbers don't represent every person as many will never be tested, and false positives/negatives/asymptomatic cases skew the statistics.
Yes, we don't test enough to begin with over here compared to the UK. But here in New Brunswick, if a rapid test is positive, it goes for further testing to confirm with a molecular test.
As far as testing here in NB before travel out of the country for a 1 to 3 day trip, within the 72hr window they allow for the test? Doesn't work for us, because the results of a molecular test can/will be after the 72 hrs, 4 days, so pretty much a useless endeavour. Can't get tested in the US near the border coming back to Canada, can only get it in Bangor, Maine a 2 hr drive away from the crossing. Only ones going over is snow birds I suspect, by spring that stupid rule will be dropped. Don't need no test to go to USA, just vaccination proof. On this side, for the molecular test, probably 2 hrs away as well. Local test is only rapid test, the Feds say is no good for travel requirement.
Quote from: kantuckid on November 16, 2021, 09:00:58 AMIn the cities, where shot rates are far higher, are people smarter? :D
Well, in a way, since more people around and people are looking for more protection, whether real or not. But I don't see that percentage break down here because there are more rural folk than city folk here, and cities are small compared to down your way. We've got about 87% fully vaccinated and 93% with at least one jab. So as I said no split on whose getting the shots really.
some diseases do not mutate much, and you only get it once. like chicken pox, although you can get shingles as your immunity decreases later in life. this is a different disease (manifestation) of the same virus. Now measles requires a second shot as outbreaks happened in college dorms, and military barracks. Small pox has been all but irradiated, and well controlled in the US. We have dealt with coronaviruses for years. no vaccine as they usually cause the common cold. Now with covid that has a predilection for the lungs, we have rapidly developed a vaccine. when penicillin was first developed, it was thought to be the cure for all disease. It was given to kids for colds and such. It developed resistance over time as the more resistant bugs were selected over time. also the drug was made with horse serum in the 50s and major anaphylaxes occurred. A majority of people swear they are allergic to PCN, since it has been passed down from grandma, to mom to children, that "if you ever got a rash with PCN, if you take it again, you will prob. die"! so after 70 years, people still believe the misinformation about PCN. It was from the protein in horse serum, as part of manufacturing. I have called the mothers of 20 something year-olds to ask what the reaction was. The kids all say, "I am allergic and almost died". The mom says, one of the kids got a rash, and i do not remember who, so I just tell them all they are allergic. so there goes 80% of all oral antibiotics, that are the best first line, and cheap. In 10 years we will know so much more! 8) :)
Quote from: kantuckid on November 16, 2021, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: Ianab on November 16, 2021, 01:50:04 AM
Quote from: Southside on November 15, 2021, 05:05:52 PM
Ian, everyone is going to catch Covid, nothing anyone can do to prevent that.
Everyone is going to be exposed to Covid at some point. The vaccine isn't 100% effective, but it improves your odds of not being infected. Better vaccines are in the pipeline targeted more at the Delta variant.
Better treatments are also being released that seem to work pretty well at keeping victims out of hospital (and presumably with less long term effects).
So there is certainly a plus side to delaying infections. It might be inevitable, but if it's After a vaccine booster and I can get a pack of Molin-whatsamacallit, then odds are better.
For curiosity's sake I just googled "how effective is smallpox vaccine" and was told 95%-same as my covid shot. Typhoid says 80% but dtap says higher?, yellow fever 99%, dtap~ 80-90%. I suppose it's about who gets (exposed as stated above) what as too a vaccines effectiveness? Above my pay grade...
My county has 46% vaccination rate.
In the cities, where shot rates are far higher, are people smarter? :D
So effectiveness of this vaccine is about as good as those ones, the newer boosters and drugs will hone in on that. I heard the other day that there are over 450 covid drugs in trials. That raised a question what was the serious adverse side effect rate of those other vaccines compared to now?
Quote from: Don P on November 16, 2021, 06:06:18 PMThat raised a question what was the serious adverse side effect rate of those other vaccines compared to now?
I know that an Australian one was dropped in early testing because it also produced a HIV antibody, so after taking it a patient would test "positive" for HIV. They didn't have any disease, just some antibodies linked with it. Heck they might even have some resistance to HIV now? But that was considered an unacceptable side effect as you can imagine. even if the vaccine was effective. Others might just be less (or no more) effective than the existing vaccines, so why spend a billion $$ more on testing and approval. I'd wager that many were as good as Pfizer / J&J, Moderna, but those are already in use. There is only a market for a 4th option is it's going to work significantly better.
To get to market a new drug has to basically be better (safer AND more effective) than what's already available. I guess cheaper might count too, but it still has to be safe and effective. Work is still being done on new vaccines, but they haven't got far enough though testing to know if they are "better".
OK, all. I am going to put on my administrator hat and ask that the "extended" discussions beyond "Just the Facts" be rerouted back to the Restricted section. There is a thread or two there that are centered on the political nature of the Covid problem, and the differing opinions regarding freedoms, mandates, booster shots and all the rest. For some reason, those discussions have ceased over there, and continued here within the Facts thread.
Why would I make this request? Because many people read this thread for further information about the disease. The "Facts" thread is able to be viewed by anyone with a computer (members and guests), unlike the Restricted Area, which requires FF membership and a specific request to enter the Restricted topics. Not all members view, or want to view, the Restricted section with its sharper edges and opinions. But, looking at the recent change in the tenor of this thread, this may turn off members and guests who have felt that the Facts thread was a good source of medical info, which was, to a greater degree, devoid of politics. I believe that the Facts thread was, in part, created with that title because this powder keg of an issue carries a large number of opinionated arguments.
I am sure if I reviewed all my posts I would see that I am guilty of crossing over from the Restricted Area opinion thread to this one. When I give an opinion on this thread I try to always so state. I'm not blaming or calling out anyone. I just think that the purpose and positive nature of this thread is being co-opted, and I have had multiple requests to try and draw a line between these two threads.
So, please consider continuing political discussions regarding Covid on the Restricted thread. Thank you.
I completely agree.
There wasn't any intended political tenor there, just a question.
After roughly a year, are these vaccines proving to be any more dangerous than the vaccines that were used against smallpox, polio, etc?
Quote from: Don P on November 16, 2021, 11:41:30 PMAfter roughly a year, are these vaccines proving to be any more dangerous than the vaccines that were used against smallpox, polio, etc?
I don't believe so. Pretty much any vaccine carries some small risk of side effects, up to and including death. The risk of serious side effects isn't zero, it's just very very small.
Here in NZ there has been one death reported as related to the vaccine, due to myocarditis AND other underlying illnesses. The type of patient that Covid was likely to kill as well, if they caught it. That's from over 6 million doses. So not zero risk, but maybe a million times safer than catching the virus? Minor side effects, maybe needing a day or 2 off work do seem common though. It does seem to have more "kick" than the flu jabs, but those are more like a booster, for a virus your body has seen before. While the Covid shots are for a completely new virus. I now understand why kids were "tired and grumpy" after getting their MMR shots as youngsters. That's how I felt too. ;)
I was also reading a large study done in the US over several large health care companies. They were tracking large groups of patients that had got the vaccine, or not, and simply counting how many died of causes other than Covid in a given month. This was to check if the vaccine was causing some unknown increase in heart attacks / strokes etc. So sample groups of several million, and naturally hundreds of them actually died for various reasons. Results were that slightly LESS vaccinated people died. But there was certainly not any excess deaths in the vaccine group, and that was consistent over ages, sex and race. This wasn't studying any individual cases, just anonymous data of overall trends pulled from the companies medical records database.
So they didn't explore reasons for ~5% less vaccinated people dying, but possibly they were people that took their Dr's other advice, and also took their BP and blood thinner meds as well? That's just speculation on my part, not a "fact". Maybe people that got the vaccine were less likely to drink drive? Dunno, that's a whole different study.
But it basically put to rest the CT that thousands of people are mysteriously dying FROM the vaccine. Thousands of people have died AFTER getting the vaccine, but that's 100% expected. If you jab 100 million people, and 20,000 of them die in the next month, that's what you actually expect. If no one died, that WOULD be unexpected and very suspicious.
You start with "I don't believe so," and that's not opinion?
:D
could have stated, " not that we know of yet"! :) only time will tell. like the PCN analogy.
I think the big thing for me, is the "way out" stuff and of course that is defined in the eyes of the beholder. Much of this is opinion in that not enough time has gone bye and studies been done due to the recent nature. Back with the old vaccines some kids had neurologic impairment, and or new onset of seizures. some parents blamed the shot. a portion of revenue from each vaccine goes into a fund to pay for neurologically "injured" kids. I use quotations because the incidence of new seizures or impairment, is the same as the general population in the unvaccinated, or not recently vaccinated population. You could infer that there is a cause and effect, since the government pays money for the care of these individuals. it was in an effort to keep the vaccines going, even though it is not believed to be related. My grandfather had polio and limped his whole life. hard to find blue collar work in the 30s and 40s if you cannot walk across an uneven plowed field.. i guess it was better to be alive. many died of polio. I would not be here I guess.
Maybe they took their meds, maybe they didn't, maybe they drink and drive more. So much for "just the facts", and more like "just the facts I want to see"
that is my point. what we think are facts now, may be disproven in a month or a year or 50 years. But the people promoting vit. C as an example, have been promoting it for anything and everything for 30 years. the entities that think all vaccines are bad and have devoted there lives to that "fact" and send all new mothers envelopes of "information" with a skull and crossbones on it, are not to be considered reliable when they say the same thing about all vaccines. i have mentioned the free copies I got from a doctor friends dad, "the cure for all diseases, and the cure for all cancers" It is a bunch of natural hooey. I know of deaths from folks that bought into this and died or nearly died. i saw someone paralyzed from using a plaster to treat an infection on his back for two years, instead of "bad" antibiotics. the infection eroded the spine and destroyed the bone, and nearby cord. The DO that prescribed the concoction of natural stuff at the patients wife's request, had no idea it was that bad. We assume natural stuff cannot hurt you, but if it replaces other good treatment... yes that limits us to traditional medicine. we have to be open minded, but not repeat and promote information that could cause someone else to make a bad choice and avoid the "for now somewhat" proven treatment. snake oil sales go up when people are fearful. here we are.
Study on Vitamin D3 levels in the blood before COVID infection, reduces deaths. And it is a fact that we are very deficient of Vitamin D3. I have heard this from many doctors of health science. We can take a heck of a lot more IU's per day through supplementation than we do. Most people don't take any at all. I've heard/read a min of 4000 IU up to 10,000 IU is safe from many sources. Not a word mentioned about it by those in charge of health care.
High Vit D, low deaths - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbGug3rczx4)
many elderly folks are given monthly shots of B 12 and if you check levels they are off the charts high, not deficient. they all say the shots make them feel better. if you use supra physiologic levels, it is now a drug, not a vitamin used as various chemical reactions as a co-factor. so are they using it to treat deficiency or using it as a drug. you can take as much of a water soluble vitamin as you like, as it goes out in the urine. fat soluble ones can cause toxicity.
I am trying to watch the video but computer is not going fast enough.
https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/supplements/vitamin-d/
I had a low vitamin D level (19) a couple of years ago. I took supplements, and on recheck a year later was > 50. Orthpaedists check this value in osteopenic patients in hopes of slowing the loss of bone mass that occurs with age, and is worse in women after menopause. Watched the video, and have seen this correlation elsewhere. I agree with his conclusion (stated early in the video) that it's not a low Vit D level that leads to higher mortality with Covid, but that a low Vit D level correlates with people who are inherently sicker, and thus more susceptible to severe Covid. Await further research and reporting.
Quote from: Southside on November 17, 2021, 01:11:41 PM
Maybe they took their meds, maybe they didn't, maybe they drink and drive more. So much for "just the facts", and more like "just the facts I want to see"
This only relates to the arguments you will have seen online like "But what about all the people that are dying from the vaccine?" That's actually a quite reasonable question to ask, because if there is some serious unknown side effect of the vaccine, that would be a very bad thing. We can all agree on that.
So someone should check into this.
CDC has, they pull the numbers from the medical companies (Integrated Health Care Organizations) that have all the records of who was vaccinated (or not) and who has died. Those are basic "facts" in their computer system and they can pull up reports on things like that. They don't need to know why they died, except they are excluding Covid related deaths from the study. the just the basic numbers.
Here are those numbers - https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7043e2.htm
And here is an explanation of what they mean.
Coronavirus Vaccines vs. NON COVID-19 related deaths (New Data) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkVsXOZguLg)
You can go and double check their maths and analysis if you want.
Now if someone believe the CDC is being run by the Lizard People and the numbers are all made up, then sorry I can't help. And if you have some real numbers that show something different is happening, lets look at them? But those numbers have lined up with what we are seeing locally, which is why I tend to believe them.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 17, 2021, 03:20:36 PM
I am trying to watch the video but computer is not going fast enough.
He's going to go into it more here in this video. Notice beside his masked mascot on the window ledge, a Vitamin D prop. Been there for some time in his videos. ;)
Vit D, part 2 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5g9AVqRsjo)
Dr. Michael F. Holick on Vitamin D. He is an authority on the subject, lectures world wide. This video is in Vienna. Not about COVID, just the vitamin.
„Vitamin D â€" State of the art“ - Dr. Michael F. Holick in Vienna (English) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuWC2d0mTbo&list=WL&index=44&t=378s)
In Part II of the Vitamin D video, he wants to solidify the idea that people with low Vitamin D levels are more susceptible to severe Covid disease (and probably most infections). Further study is needed to demonstrate that. But the follow-up investigation that needs to take place is even more important, as there has been no demonstrated correlation demonstrating cause and effect between vitamin D level and Covid severity. The study he analysed is an observational study, and merely reflects what the data showed. It is not an interventional study, which would ask, "If people with low Vitamin D have poorer outcomes from Covid, does raising your Vit D level through increased intake correct the jeopardy of more severe disease that the low Vit D level predicts?" We truly do not yet have any direct evidence that correcting low levels of Vit D can ward off severe Covid. So....as he stated in the first video on Vitamin D, if people with multiple comorbidities are much more likely to have low Vitamin D levels, is it the comorbidities that lead to the increased likelihood of severe disease, or is it the low Vitamin D level. Is it both? Will correcting the Vit D level correct the comorbidities? Unlikely. Will correcting the Vit D level help ward off severe infection? Possibly. We still have much to learn.
Correction of low Vitamin D levels has been done with daily or weekly oral supplements. My low Vit D level was treated with three months of 50,000IU of Vit D3 once a week for three months.
Dr Holick's shows many studies concerning cells, genes and Vitamin D correlations mechanisms and pathways for better immune response, reducing heart disease and reducing diabetes, less tooth decay in infants.
It's interesting, that when you made Vit. D in your skin from sun it last 2-3x longer than supplementation.
Mother has noticed an improvement in reducing pain from arthritis since she increased Vit D supplementation, doesn't need pain killers any more for 'arthur'. Vit D does not reverse what is already there, but makes it more manageable. And Dr Holick found this in clinical trials to be the case in seniors. Also found less bone fractures because you're more steady on your feet when: 1)your not suffering from chronic pain, 2)better muscle strength, 3) better extremity function.
Quote from: doctorb on November 18, 2021, 12:32:57 AM
Correction of low Vitamin D levels has been done with daily or weekly oral supplements. My low Vit D level was treated with three months of 50,000IU of Vit D3 once a week for three months.
Have a look at about 35 minutes into Holick's video. Basically, not a long term remedy, good for a few months.
As to benefits to immunity and reduction of infection
43 mins into Holick's video, they now
know the mechanisms.
Benefits to diabetes, MS, cancer, heart disease and arthritis incidence shown there after in video. Lots of evidence.
Concerning some studies being done that contradict his findings, he'll point out that there were a lot of misinterpretations of the data in their conclusions, they contradict the data when you dig into the study. Not only that, some studies not being conducted very well. Like selecting only patients that have fallen in the last 12 months to see if falling incidence is lower with supplementation. And studies where patients have already been undergoing treatment for deficiency to begin with. How bogus can you get? :D
SwampDonkey-
I don't disagree with your interpretation of the video. It's what's not said, and can't be said yet, that is the missing link to Vit D level and it's relationship to Covid. We have all this basic and medical science about Vit D and disease, as your post and the video points out, but we don't know that patients who have had a chronically decreased levels of Vit D, who then have their Vit D levels raised to optimal levels, will react more favorably to catching Covid. In other words, is Vitamin D more of a marker of susceptibility in a specific patient, or does correcting the level of Vit D assure a smoother course of this disease. We have not demonstrated cause and effect. We have not taken a population of people with low Vit D levels, corrected that with supplements, remeasured their levels, and demonstrated that the correction of the Vit D deficiency leads to different Covid outcomes.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 17, 2021, 11:19:11 AM
I think the big thing for me, is the "way out" stuff and of course that is defined in the eyes of the beholder. Much of this is opinion in that not enough time has gone bye and studies been done due to the recent nature. Back with the old vaccines some kids had neurologic impairment, and or new onset of seizures. some parents blamed the shot. a portion of revenue from each vaccine goes into a fund to pay for neurologically "injured" kids. I use quotations because the incidence of new seizures or impairment, is the same as the general population in the unvaccinated, or not recently vaccinated population. You could infer that there is a cause and effect, since the government pays money for the care of these individuals. it was in an effort to keep the vaccines going, even though it is not believed to be related. My grandfather had polio and limped his whole life. hard to find blue collar work in the 30s and 40s if you cannot walk across an uneven plowed field.. i guess it was better to be alive. many died of polio. I would not be here I guess.
Yet another e.g. of lawyers affecting the medical field and our collective COL overall via vaccines. Interesting vaccine history. The diphtheria vaccine article in Smithsonian mag. I mentioned awhile back is likewise instructive toward todays vaccine controversies.
Polio affected some kids in my generation, the first to get the Salk vaccine, (I remember eating a sugar cube of the stuff) one a classmate of mine. She advanced out of her iron lung in Jr High or HS and was able to finish HS & Washburn University then a lifelong municipal librarian, and actually on her feet all day, albeit in braces. People have so much more to choose from these days career wise.
One of my great, great grandfathers chopped off a toe and bled to death-after he'd made a few kids! timing is/was everything for me too :D
One of my SIL's is a masters level nutritionist who often says that people who eat a balanced diet don't usually need or benefit from supplemental vitamins.
I had an old school chiropractor who was a vit D advocate. Gave me piles of stuff to read on the subject, much came from Germany as I recall, not that I bought in. And there was the famous vit C advocate, a chemist named Linus Pauling who won the Nobel prize. Vit D discussion makes me wonder how all these "other milks" figure into the health discussion? I guess they have vit D added? We don't buy them, my vegan son does though.
Take solace in fact Vitamin D toxicity is very difficult unless say, the supplement maker forgets to dilute it for the pills. A case in which Dr Holick was directly involved with because someone tried to sue him and in fact found the pills the guy took were extremely concentrated and not 1000 IU as per label, closer to 1M. Now that'll do it. :D Having good Vit D levels is beneficial to me in many ways. :)
I agree Vit C was a scam and proven so with evidence. Not even close to being the same with Vit D, a heck of a lot more studies proving benefits around the world. People bought into the black box trick and put what's her face on the cover of Forbes, nobody did any study to confirm and denied access to do so. Complete loonies. The kind of stuff James Randi warned about for 50 years. :D A strong advocate of science and the scientific method.
Let's be clear here. I'm not talking immunity against COVID-19, I'm talking positive affects to the immune system and reduced infections to diseases studied. Dr Holick's video has nothing to do with COVID-19. Because COVID is the subject of this thread it becomes a jumping off point to say there is no cause effect against it. Well yeah, it's not in the studies presented..........yet, but certainly some hope. ;)
Quote from: kantuckid on November 18, 2021, 08:04:19 AMVit D discussion makes me wonder how all these "other milks" figure into the health discussion? I guess they have vit D added? We don't buy them, my vegan son does though.
It would say on the carton if it's in Almond milk for instance. You may not need to supplement down your way. Right around the Georgia area, below that latitude, get some sun and you are well looked after between 10:00 am and 3:00 pm is the window. Up here from October to end of March we get none from sun exposure, zip.
I take D year-round. I dunno, not much science in it, but yes I do do dat.
Outside most of the time too, my skin darkens a LOT. Maybe sunrays don't get thru so good. I've heard that's a thing.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 18, 2021, 09:40:55 AMUp here from October to end of March we get none from sun exposure, zip
I have heard that if your shadow is longer than you you are not getting any Vitamin D from it.
Me too, Dr's try to make stuff simple to follow for the layman. ;) Dr. Holick is certainly one who has used them words.
It's totally accepted that a deficiency of various vitamins can cause diseases (rickets , scurvy etc), and can weaken your general immune system, making you more vulnerable to other random infections. Vitamin D deficiency causes bone disorders (rickets / brittle bones) so it's plausible that would relate to arthritis. Wont cure the damage, but low levels could make the condition worse.
So it completely plausible that a deficiency could make you more vulnerable to Covid. Not proven, but quite likely. It's hard to really study though, even of you gave everyone a vitamin supplement, and noticed an overall better result against Covid, is that because the vitamin helped everyone? Or did it only help the folks with low levels, and so they bought the overall average up? It's also possible that low levels are symptom of some other condition, and that's the real risk factor. You could boost all the low level folks, and find no improvement. So like the Doc says, it would need a large study, with measuring levels and noting results to actually prove this.
What isn't so likely is that larger doses will help (in otherwise healthy people). Your body generally regulates most of those levels, and dumps the excess. Fat soluble can be stored and become more of a problem, but only if you are taking silly amounts.
I would say, if you have a known low level (of any vitamin), then take some measures to boost that. (Diet, supplement, sunshine etc )
If you don't know, then taking a sensible amount of supplement won't harm you. You might be peeing most of it out next day, but it won't be harming you, and might be helping.
If you know your levels are good, then you are probably just peeing the supplement away
QuoteI have heard that if your shadow is longer than you you are not getting any Vitamin D from it.
Likely correct for a number of reasons. Sunlight has to pass through more air to reach you, so more UV gets filtered out. It's colder, so you are outside less, and wrapped up when you are. And there is simply less daylight in a day. Add all those up and lower Vit D levels in winter is fairly common.
Quote from: Ianab on November 18, 2021, 03:51:39 PM
So it completely plausible that a deficiency could make you more vulnerable to Covid. Not proven, but quite likely. It's hard to really study though, even of you gave everyone a vitamin supplement, and noticed an overall better result against Covid, is that because the vitamin helped everyone?
Not just any vitamins, but those with known pathways, like receptors in cells or organs that trigger certain mechanisms, affect genes a certain way, what ever else is known. Taking a supplement isn't a cure, but studies can be conducted to see if it increases better outcomes or reduces symptoms. Like are things improved by 30% in the population? 50%? or very little benefit at all versus a good diet. There would likely be 3 groups in a proper test, not just those with 1) deficiency, 2) none deficient, but also 3) unknown control where no test for level of vitamin in the blood (or where ever) is done so neither the patients or doctors know,
during the test. I'm sure there are many more protocols as I'm not a statistician that designs these tests. But I'm not totally ignorant about statistics either, having studied biostatistics. :D
I do the Vitamin D supplement because too much sun years ago made susceptible to skin cancer. I see the derma doc every 6 months and something always gets frozen or cut off.
I used to supplement B12 but that ended in 1998.
I have done the Vitamin D for quite a few years now. I read a few studies which showed a relationship between cancer and Lack of Vitamin D. That was enough for me. I take 2,000 units a day year round, and always sit in the sun for 20 mins a day with no shirt on during the summer . The study showed, in the northern hemisphere, that we only receive enough ultra violet from the sun from June 21 to Sept 21.
Was there any covid vaccine data in the news today?
I saw this today
FDA asks for 55 years to release data on Pfizer's COVID vaccine - Israel National News (https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/317161)
QuoteThe FDA promised "full transparency" due to "tremendous public interest" in a drug that it approved after studying the data for just 108 days.
Quote
The Food and Drug Administration (FDA (https://www.theepochtimes.com/t-fda)) asked a federal judge on Nov. 15 to give it until the year 2076 to fully release the documents in its possession tied to the approval of the Pfizer (https://www.theepochtimes.com/t-pfizer)-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine.The FDA's request was made in a filing (https://www.sirillp.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/020-Second-Joint-Status-Report-8989f1fed17e2d919391d8df1978006e.pdf) as part of a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit by a medical transparency group. The government told the court it has 329,000 pages of documents responsive to the FOIA request and proposed releasing 500 pages per month to allow for redactions of exempt material. At that rate, the FDA would fully release the records in question in just under 55 years.
Wait what? FDA wants 55 years to process FOIA request over vaccine data | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/wait-what-fda-wants-55-years-process-foia-request-over-vaccine-data-2021-11-18/)
(Reuters) - Freedom of Information Act requests are rarely speedy, but when a group of scientists asked the federal government to share the data it relied upon in licensing Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, the response went beyond typical bureaucratic foot-dragging.I don't think I can wait that long
Why since you asked there is that blurb about the lawsuit in US District Court, Northern District of Texas, where Public Health and Medical Professionals for Transparency are suing the FDA to release the information they used to approve the Pfizer jab, because the FDA has refused FOIA requests, and not provided a single sentence from the 329,000 pages they reviewed in 18 months to approve the jab.
Today the FDA requested that they be given until 2076, yes the year Two Thousand and Seventy Six, 55 years, to release all of the information. This information would be the information that Pfizer provided to the FDA to obtain approval for their version of the jab that is not available in the United States, yet is being used as a means to mandate employees of the Federal Government submit to the jab. At present the mandate that all employers with more than 99 employees submit to the jab is dead in court, but Federal employees and federal contractors are requited to submit to the jab based on the data that the FDA used to approve a jab that is not available in the US and they formally requsted 55 years to release the data used to support their decision.
Not stating any conclusions or opinions, just the facts.
Just want to make sure my facts are straight, that is the same company with the largest criminal fine in US history? Correct?
And I read where Biden bought 10 million courses of Pfizer pills for 5.3 billion.
530 dollars per treatment Course. I hope it's not rebranded horse medicine. Just sayin.
That would be their new pill that acts as a Protease inhibitor. Ivermectin is also a Protease inhibitor.
I was at the Dermatologist today. There was a poster on the wall for Treating Maskne.
It's a pretty big problem for some people.
How to Treat "Maskne" (Mask Acne) | U.S. Dermatology Partners | Blog (https://www.usdermatologypartners.com/blog/maskne-is-the-new-acne/)
Fact is how many boosters and shots are you going to get! 12345 or more.
https://www.sirillp.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/020-Second-Joint-Status-Report-8989f1fed17e2d919391d8df1978006e.pdf (https://www.sirillp.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/020-Second-Joint-Status-Report-8989f1fed17e2d919391d8df1978006e.pdf)
Here's what southside was talking about.
The front is falling off lol
Quote from: Southside on November 18, 2021, 10:47:52 PM
Ivermectin is also a Protease inhibitor.
Yeah the opposition tought it as 'horse medicine'. Even though 3.6 million doses have been given to humans over 25 years or so. I'm not sure the exact figure there. But Dr. Campbell shares the figures in his videos. Like some of us, he rolls his eyes over the 'horse medicine' label. ::) ::) Media's mental state of mind is probably fixed on some notion that it is the same dosage and cocktail with other things used in a horse. I blame that on the media making 'wow news'. I have my doubts they heard this mentioned in such a way to make it such a deal. But I can see a news caster with all the facial and body language to make high drama from nothing. ::)
Ivermection works on 6 different targets as a Protease inhibitor, less chance the virus can mutate against it. The Pfizer one only acts on a single target. Plus no peer review has ever been released on it to validate it. There was only a company press release. Doesn't cut the mustard. ;) Like anytime in the past, if you open the door, the oversight is lost and the profits pour in.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-18/u-s-to-pay-pfizer-5-3-billion-for-order-of-covid-therapy-pill (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-18/u-s-to-pay-pfizer-5-3-billion-for-order-of-covid-therapy-pill)
Pfizer pill, the US is buying 10million doses for 5.3 billion, 530$ USD each.
Quote from: Walnut Beast on November 19, 2021, 04:38:25 AM
Fact is how many boosters and shots are you going to get! 12345 or more.
I'm thinking that we (the world) could end up having to take a booster shot every year, like the FLU and PNEUMONIA!
Neither are mandatory where the other is looking like thrice annually.
I think that is basically what Fauci and the governor of Connecticut said yesterday.
Well, when you look at Europe right now, herd immunity isn't happening and even the CDC recently made a statement to that effect. Germany (Bavaria region) has even sent patients to Italy due to proximity of free beds closer by. ::)
Quote from: Hilltop366 on November 18, 2021, 01:08:35 PM
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 18, 2021, 09:40:55 AMUp here from October to end of March we get none from sun exposure, zip
I have heard that if your shadow is longer than you you are not getting any Vitamin D from it.
"My" shadow's pretty short :D but maybe my neck & belly girth makes up as a suncatcher? Per my annual dermatologist visits, and in spite of my darker complexion I'm getting too much sun? I typically get lots of "spots" burned off my face and other upper body areas. Not real funny either given cancer realities like my wife's own sun related biopsies.
Too much of a good thing huh?
My doctor's name is Dr. Spock, yup really. Great doc. He did a Mohs procedure on the top of my left ear a couple years ago. He said they see a lot of this. His theory is when we're driving exposure to that part of your ear is too much. I've been going every 6 months since then.
Moderation, always sunscreen on face. It's more susceptible, compared to arms, legs.
Nothing funny about cancer in any form. My oldest cousin just had a mastectomy. Grandmother did to, around same age back in the 70's. We lost a cousin, younger brother of hers, in the 70's. Brain cancer, around 14 years old.
Swamp-
The women in that genetic line may need to be tested for the BRCA genes. These are recognizable genes associated with breast cancer. Early detection and even prophylactic mastectomy can be life saving. Once you have successive generations diagnosed with breast cancer, aggressive screening is probably a good idea.
My cousin is a retired nurse, 70 years old I think. I'm guessing, she's on top of it though.
Thanks for sharing a word, Doc. smiley_thumbsup
Canada to lift PCR test requirement for short trips to USA and returning within 72 hrs. Nothing official yet, not updated on the travel site.
Quote from: Mooseherder on October 02, 2021, 04:21:33 PM
Higher premium from the China virus. Gave everyone rabies from our own funding.
Our Silver Plan Health Insurance increased from 1765.00 per month to 1965.00 per month. Thank you mr. Obamacare.
I'm not sure where you were before but prior to that our premium exceeded our income, we were insuring out of savings. When it kicked in we decided we had one more year of funds for that nonsense. I think there are probably better ways than either but if we keep folks distracted with 2 choices they don't seem to look further.
We're setting records again. We're running around 40% vaxxed and the highest infection rates in the state. I think state average is around 75% vaxxed.
I pay that much Canadian per year for Engineers group insurance. Includes loss of wages. I don't put on Dental, the premium for that for a year is more than I've ever paid in 30 years. No clue why that is high, but I did notice cleaning has doubled in 20 years. I can't imagine giving anyone a days pay to clean teeth for 20 minutes. Quite a racket. :D
I have a question in the hopes of better understanding. Up here in Minnesota we have a pretty good surge going. Minnesota: Highest Infection Rates Of COVID-19, Hospitalizations Pass 1,400 Amid Surge ? WCCO | CBS Minnesota (https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/11/19/minnesota-highest-infection-rates-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-pass-1400-amid-surge/)
I have chosen to get vaccinated along with those in my immediate family, wife and two kids. However, my mother, who is 72 with multiple comorbidities including being over weight, diabetic along with heart problems steadfastly refuses to get vaccinated. She says she doesn't trust medical system and feels its is political. She and one of my bothers both say they won't take it. While I have great respect for the right of people to believe what they want or choose to do, I also don't want to have to see my mother die sooner that otherwise likely or explain to her grandchildren it was her choice and why she isn't there for them anymore if the worst was to happen.
What I can't grasp is in the face of information like: New data shows efficacy of COVID-19 vaccine in Minnesota | kare11.com (https://www.kare11.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/new-data-shows-efficacy-of-covid-vaccine-in-minnesota/89-f08b79b8-91b5-4eeb-8561-18b48e7b933b)
How she or others like her decide getting vaccinated is a greater risk to their health?
While I agree no vaccine is risk free, and this particular one has been done quickly with little time for long term study due to necessity. So while long term studies obviously can't be done, we do have data from a immensely large number of people in the billions who have been vaccinated showing it is relatively safe overall.
When weighing the relative risk from getting vaccinated to the relative risk of getting covid with out being vaccinated first (assuming no prior exposure), how in the world does one come down on the side of not taking the vaccine?
I do not wish to chastise anyone that has made that decision, but rather to understand the rational as those around me who have made the choice don't seem to be able to explain how they came to the that point of view without reverting vague statements such as its political, or I don't trust it, it was rushed and etc. All points when pressed as to what data or information they used and what the comparative process was used to make the decision is studiously avoided or sidelined with that's just how I feel or etc.
Many who didn't, and were seriously infected, were asked before they couldn't talk any more. From what I saw, a large proportion wished they had. BUT these were mostly not antivaxxers that I saw in interviews from their beds, they had only put it off for various reasons. Now running that type of interview for TV, they could just as easily not showed any antivaxxers, just edit them out. But at least we know there are a lot of people who just didn't get around to it. TV is constantly feeding distractions, where one thing hasn't got a darn thing to do with another. All it has to be is a hint of some negative catch phrases, and all the sudden no way am I getting a vaccine. The data is irrelevant, no good, not believable. As Stanton Friedman would say in one of his 4 debunker criteria. "Don't give me the facts, my mind is already made up". :D
Quote from: Don P on November 21, 2021, 09:11:16 AM
I'm not sure where you were before but prior to that our premium exceeded our income, we were insuring out of savings. When it kicked in we decided we had one more year of funds for that nonsense. I think there are probably better ways than either but if we keep folks distracted with 2 choices they don't seem to look further.
We're setting records again. We're running around 40% vaxxed and the highest infection rates in the state. I think state average is around 75% vaxxed.
I just looked up your state of VA for you on the NYTime's chart-it's 64% fully & 74% had one shot. WV is interesting as they were an early leader nationwide but now statewide they are way low @ 41% fully & 54% one shot. My state of KY is 52% one shot & 59% both. My rural county is much lower than our few urban KY areas at like 46%.
I scheduled my wife and I's Moderna booster shots for after Thanksgiving the Tuesday following so if we get an overt reaction it won't mess up the head cook.
I feel for you anyone self-employed and health ins. cost (or those injured on the job) but my own/our reality is I/we chose a low paying occupation with decent benefits that are yielding a sort of guaranteed mediocrity of lifestyle?
Back when I worked at real jobs insurance was free everywhere except the grocery store but as most people when young, I never used any of it, as in zero, nada. Now what with a paid for Medicare Supplemental (other than small SS donation of ~$100 mo) with paid for Rx plan my COL is really low unless we blow retail moolah which goes to our GK's. My wife's splurge is a new fridge & range- the old ones were built/bought in 1996 when our youngest got out of HS.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 21, 2021, 09:35:47 AM
I pay that much Canadian per year for Engineers group insurance. Includes loss of wages. I don't put on Dental, the premium for that for a year is more than I've ever paid in 30 years. No clue why that is high, but I did notice cleaning has doubled in 20 years. I can't imagine giving anyone a days pay to clean teeth for 20 minutes. Quite a racket. :D
The U of KY dental College where I go "suggests" cleaning every 6 months. I told them annual is my plan. They decided the students don't do most cleanings now as they once did, the few hygenist do them I guess to make them earn their keep. Cost half a street dentist job for a cleaning.
The process by which these jabs work is a significant deviation from historical vaccine methods. There is zero long term information available about the impact, side effects and bad medical combinations which should be avoided. Transparency is zero. The FDA and CDC have lost their credibility with their significant position shifting, acting as an expert then retuning with "we didn't know" as an excuse.
The FDA requesting 55 years to release the Pfizer provided data which was used to approve their jab, which is not available to anyone, is enough to make a rational person question why the secrecy.
Complete denial of reactions and deaths caused by the jab, of which I have personally observed.
Just a few reasons. Having said that it's an individual, medical, choice as to if one gets the jab or not.
Quote from: Southside on November 21, 2021, 10:23:41 AM
The process by which these jabs work is a significant deviation from historical vaccine methods. There is zero long term information available about the impact, side effects and bad medical combinations which should be avoided.
I guarantee ya it was no different with the polio vaccine, no long term study, no history, or bad med info. But people were mighty darn glad to protect their 12 kids from possible infantile paralysis when little Jimmy's best friend and friend's 3 other brother's had caught it before hand. ;) I know 6 people who suffered all their lives from polio. I know of a few that died of TB that didn't need to, that's been treatable for 50 years.
The Polio vaccine followed the same method a s previous, proven, vaccines. It was not an entire new technology.
There was a starting point somewhere, maybe smallpox is a better example since it was the first vaccine. There really is no valid argument. There is always progress, changing science, new data emerges over time. Can't snap your fingers and all the sudden all the knowledge appears. ;)
Anyone that says they don't believe there are possible complications and everything is totally safe, is no scientist. They are not worth anyone's trust. I have not heard that personally except possibly some news anchor who has pour choice of words. What the heck do they know with a journalism diploma?
Exactly. The science isn't settled.
It's been studied for 30 years. The science isn't new at all behind it, it's never settled.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 21, 2021, 10:36:15 AM
Quote from: Southside on November 21, 2021, 10:23:41 AM
The process by which these jabs work is a significant deviation from historical vaccine methods. There is zero long term information available about the impact, side effects and bad medical combinations which should be avoided.
I guarantee ya it was no different with the polio vaccine, no long term study, no history, or bad med info. But people were mighty darn glad to protect their 12 kids from possible infantile paralysis when little Jimmy's best friend and friend's 3 other brother's had caught it before hand. ;) I know 6 people who suffered all their lives from polio. I know of a few that died of TB that didn't need to, that's been treatable for 50 years.
As an aside to the above- during the 4.5 years that I was superintendent of a KY juvenile treatment program from ~ 1986-1990, we had two TB positive kids among our 14-16 age range we served. As we had 3 kids and my wife in our home I got tested as a precaution. There are specially trained doctors who read your xrays and I was negative as were all those staff who opted for testing. I would suspect that among homeless and vagrant populations of our down and out populations it's still found in the USA. Juvy kids often come from what I'll call either irrelevant or abusive homes. Kids not having vaccinations was really common but it got lots worse with some. Most often a social worker had already begun a health assessment of kids we received from the justice route. Regardless I sent all of mine to a local doc for a full look including dental visit. Dental was tough as dentists, especially orthodontists wouldn't do anything that required a finish point beyond the brief "treatment" (ours were not locked in) period of ~ 6 months per "visit", such as oft needed braces.
For all of you non-vaxxers I am happy to say we are both here to discuss this subject.
Politics permeates many people's overall mentality too much for whats to me a healthy lifestyle. I try to sort the "people who know stuff", from those who are there from a vote for medical decisions. I like WebMD, MayoClinic, real doctors, etc., lots better than politicians for medical info.
By this I'm not pointing fingers within this forum section, but I am thinking of people I know who spend the days cruising the web for snarky, somewhat funny political one-sided stuff, then cross posting to FB. Since we have a bunch of estate stuff for sale on FB I began to go on there. I'm now friends with family for baby pics, so on but mostly I like the Woodmizer & Branson tractor groups. But yep, I get the other stuff along with the baby pics-yuk. Wife & I watch certain TV media while we eat supper many nites but also know how to toss it aside mostly as we actually have a life beside web crap.
I understand, fully. I do have a Facebook account as well. I'm on about 6 groups, and they are about a specific topic. And that is all we talk about. In fact the subjects in each have nothing to do with current events except a study course being offered, a death of contributing soul who has published literature on the subject or taught it, or whatever is relevant to the topic. There is no reason to bring other 'stuff' into the conversations, it has no relevance. ;D
Had a cousin in New Hampshire who was in a home because of dementia and other issues who died with COVID today. He was 86 with failing heath to begin with. Be dad's first cousin. He has a sister here in New Brunswick who is a stroke survivor. Mom was just on the phone with her. A cousin of her's and dad's (a niece to grandmother) is in a nursing home here, she's 96 and is a stroke survivor of 16 years or so now. Spry as a chicken in a wheel chair. I call her hot wheels every time I see her. :D :D Mother will be calling her tonight after the supper hour. Before long I'll be one of them old timers. :D Someone asked me how long I expect to live, after talking about thinning my woods over a few years. 'Oh, 90 something I'm sure, I replied.' :D :D
96 is quite the feat, imagine turning 66 and having another 30 years of life left
Quote from: HemlockKing on November 21, 2021, 04:25:56 PM
96 is quite the feat, imagine turning 66 and having another 30 years of life left
I will be reminded how nice the first 30 were, I'm sure, when ever I go to move. :D :D
I think each has it's own risk factor of where we live . That helps me decide if I need a vaccine. Right now I see the risk factor of getting the MRNA vaccine and its side effects are a higher risk factor than me getting C19. If I lived and worked in a higher risk area, my thoughts might be get the Vaccine.
Quote from: Stephen1 on November 21, 2021, 07:04:53 PM
I think each has it's own risk factor of where we live . That helps me decide if I need a vaccine. Right now I see the risk factor of getting the MRNA vaccine and its side effects are a higher risk factor than me getting C19. If I lived and worked in a higher risk area, my thoughts might be get the Vaccine.
That probably answers part of what was being asked above. A decision based on the actual risk factors at this point is pretty cut and dried, it's more dangerous to go out for ice cream. Among the unvaxxed these are decisions based on perceived risk factors, that's a tougher nut to crack.
Quote from: Don P on November 21, 2021, 08:27:33 PM
That probably answers part of what was being asked above. A decision based on the actual risk factors at this point is pretty cut and dried, it's more dangerous to go out for ice cream. Among the unvaxxed these are decisions based on perceived risk factors, that's a tougher nut to crack.
Many would use this same statement for the risk of covid 19 virus. More dangerous going out for ice cream,perceived risks etc.
Some have told stories here of the unvaccinated pleading on their deathbeds for the vaccine which sounds like it was written by an out of work second rate penthouse writer. It would be easy to start posting vax injury videos of young people seizing and eyes rolled back in their heads while loved ones look on helplessly but it is not the place.
You want the vax,get it, don't want it, don't get it.
Quote from: Paul_H on November 21, 2021, 09:04:54 PM
Some have told stories here of the unvaccinated pleading on their deathbeds for the vaccine which sounds like it was written by an out of work second rate penthouse writer.
That is not true. No video I saw where patients where begging for a vaccine as they were dying. The truth is, video was showing patients that wished they had been vaccinated before they got infected. Some were not anti vaxxers, they just didn't perceive the risk of the disease or get around to getting the shots, others were antivax. A completely different message. There is also video by the NYT showing antivaxxers, change there minds on the death bed (not begging for a shot) as well as those that never changed their minds to the end. You can get it from all the angles. Here is an antivaxxer who admits to spreading misinformation on Facebook on the vaccine and then nearly dies from COVID, changes her tune about the vaccine. Once anti-vaxx, New Brunswick woman pleads to unvaccinated not to follow her lead | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/grand-falls-woman-covid-1.6257509)
Some polio vaccine facts.
Takes 4 shots, important that each vaccination is received as scheduled. Can be infected between shots.
the more serious side effects:
extreme drowsiness , seizures, high fever, severe allergic reaction (anaphylaxis), trouble breathing, severe dizziness.
And here a study (links to others) on myocardial complications of vaccines including polio.
Myocardial complications of immunisations - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/736507)
Take away? You can always find trouble if you want to go looking for it. Mostly rare events in millions of vaccinations.
That same NYT recently got busted for using mannequins in "mock up" ICU rooms and passing the photos off as genuine.
Alterior motives.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 21, 2021, 04:33:04 PM
Quote from: HemlockKing on November 21, 2021, 04:25:56 PM
96 is quite the feat, imagine turning 66 and having another 30 years of life left
I will be reminded how nice the first 30 were, I'm sure, when ever I go to move. :D :D
There are several Life Expectancy Calculators online-if you get real concerned maybe try one out? ;D
I was in a school library on a puter entertaining myself on a break after I'd retired from FT work. The young librarian walked by and she gave me one of those websites to try out-I was maybe 58 that day. No doubt she thought I was already old back then.
FWIW, as I recall, I'd already be dead if it had been correct, knock on wood.
Charts says I've got from 78 another 9.43 years left based on age alone.
There's another one to measure your hand/eye coordination which I'm still good to go on. It's called the "ruler drop test" if your game to find out if you need to turn in yer keys, or not? :D
Quote from: Southside on November 22, 2021, 09:20:32 AM
That same NYT recently got busted for using mannequins in "mock up" ICU rooms and passing the photos off as genuine.
Alterior motives.
The NYT's info I posted was public information about covid for various health agencies, no mannequins? :D FWIW, I read them for their version of not much that matches my own way of thinking, plus it's free (son subscribes and gives it too 5 people free), plus wife & I do their word games to maintain our senior sanities.
I also read the WSJ (free as well) for another version of whatever's called information & opinion and it's mostly vastly different than the NYT's "stuff".
Rest easy... :D
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 22, 2021, 04:55:42 AM
There is also video by the NYT showing antivaxxers, change there minds on the death bed (not begging for a shot) as well as those that never changed their minds to the end. You can get it from all the angles. Here is an antivaxxer who admits to spreading misinformation on Facebook on the vaccine and then nearly dies from COVID, changes her tune about the vaccine. Once anti-vaxx, New Brunswick woman pleads to unvaccinated not to follow her lead | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/grand-falls-woman-covid-1.6257509)
Bill,
I could find plenty that show remorseful vaccine injured as well and it is not pretty so why don't we stay away from these type of posts (?)
Quote from: Southside on November 22, 2021, 09:20:32 AM
That same NYT recently got busted for using mannequins in "mock up" ICU rooms and passing the photos off as genuine.
Alterior motives.
Sounds like made up crock. Quite the feet to have them talking and breathing. :D
‘Error in judgement’: CBC Edmonton regrets mannequin’s use in COVID-19 news report | The Province (https://theprovince.com/news/canada/error-in-judgement-cbc-edmonton-regrets-mannequins-use-in-covid-19-news-report)
Originally reported as an actual hospital and later corrected. Lazy reporting or fake news? Is there much talking in ICU?
People will dwell on stuff like it's a mass extinction, when it's a rare event. The information or disinformation age sure doesn't bring society together too well. Evidence from studies showing a good many different vaccines have similar risks are simply ignored. So I see no point in talking about it further. I'll be increasing my chances of survival by numbers. :)
Sounds like you're all set :)
Today's numbers in the paper. 2/3 of local Covid hospitalizations - non vaccinated, 1/3 vaccinated. The vaccinated percentage keeps trending up. Was hovering around 15%, then 20-22, now 33%, on a weekly basis. Just the facts.
Meanwhile Japan of 128 Million residents?, only 74 cases, one of the highest vaccination rates. They have a few hypothesis, 1)the delta variant has become mutated enough that a protein required to replicate has gone fowl, so it makes duds, 2) a protein common in the Japanese population is effective in fighting the virus ( no ethic studies about this in the USA), 3) Ivermectin is freely available over there since Oct 13th? 4)they practice social distancing, masking and hand washing more religiously over there. This was going on before COVID, during flu season for instance.
Of note, something like 1) happened with SARS1 and it is now extinct. It's gone.
A month or more ago their cases sky rocketed, now next to nothing.
Brad, when 100% of people are vaccinated, then all cases will be in vaccinated people. as the rate of vaccination goes up, so does the percentage. here it is less than 10% in the hospital are vaccinated breakthrough cases. i guess your point is the vaccine is not worth it. but most deaths in addition to age and co-morbidity are unvaccinated. just the facts. the vaccine does not prevent all disease. but if your chance of survival is increased double, why not do it.. unless you are convinced it (the vaccine) will be more likely to kill you. the misinformation.
In Canada, 98% of cases are mild, 2% severe. Cases have levelled off since Oct 18th, averaging ~2400 daily cases nation wide. There are some highs and lows, but the trend since then is steady. 82% of severe cases are unvaccinated. Only 5% are severe cases in fully vaccinated people, the remaining percentage are those not fully vaccinated including recommended time after both doses, which delays effectiveness. Over 60.1M doses administered to a population of 38M (2020 census data). Continue to believe vaccines aren't working and contributing to high numbers of negative outcomes, the evidence so far is overwhelmingly against that fairy tale.
Doc: Your logic and mine are a little different OK. I've seen you and others post that all people will either get Covid or the vaccine. I disagree with that statement. Are you talking 10 yrs down the road? Again, I'll state that less than 10% of our county population has been inflicted. Just my opinion, but the entire other 90% is going to get it? I don't think so. Have we forgotten the Amish population?, disdain for gov't., disdain for hospitals, disdain for public education, and Covid does not seem to be a problem for them. Perhaps they all got it already. Just saying.
Interesting about the Amish.
Must be the raw soy milk.
They have not been forgotten, the COVID has hit them hard in some communities. They are vaccinating but very few or 'secretively', can't say percentage wise, but some are or have been in the vaccination clinics.
COVID-19 Has Hit The Amish Community Hard. Still, Vaccines Are A Tough Sell (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/04/28/990986056/covid-19-has-hit-the-amish-community-hard-still-vaccines-are-a-hard-sell)
Fact Check-Amish communities have been affected by the COVID-19 pandemic | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-amish-idUSL2N2NZ1TY)
Lots of Facebook and Istagram false information. My brother saw some "Irish Dr" on Facebook the other day that claims COVID isn't a real virus. Or at least that is what my brother now believes. Saw it on there. I know my brother well, and he has always fallen for stuff easily over his whole life. What my brother was trying to say was completely non sequitur as usual. :D
Brad-
It's not quite that rosey with the Amish.
https://wvutoday.wvu.edu/stories/2021/06/22/death-and-religion-excess-deaths-sweep-through-amish-and-mennonite-communities-during-covid-19-pandemic (https://wvutoday.wvu.edu/stories/2021/06/22/death-and-religion-excess-deaths-sweep-through-amish-and-mennonite-communities-during-covid-19-pandemic)
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/04/28/990986056/covid-19-has-hit-the-amish-community-hard-still-vaccines-are-a-hard-sell (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/04/28/990986056/covid-19-has-hit-the-amish-community-hard-still-vaccines-are-a-hard-sell)
Recent posts regarding herd immunity amongst the Amish are worthy of analysis. I'm fine with the idea that staying away from government is good for you, but it is incorrect to think they haven't suffered. As a population, they may have less obesity and comorbidities, which potentially could lower their mortality risk with Covid. The perception that they have avoided Covid ("not a problem for them") may not be exactly accurate. If they have had Covid, their immunity will fade and they may get it again. There is no silver bullet.
The "excess deaths" is the tell tale. They may have less cases reported if they aren't going to get testing / treatment. Most survive and recover, but aren't counted. Some could die at home without being diagnosed? But like the general population, excess deaths shows "something" is going on.
Church groups are a common factor in local outbreaks, not because they are doing anything "wrong", just that large gatherings in enclosed spaces is the perfect place for the virus to spread.
Not going to be a great Thanksgiving here. Stepson family all have it. He is finally able to walk more than 20 feet. DIL is back working. :) He got hit the hardest, hospital for a week.
Turkey is getting ready now. Looks like a stay at home holiday.
I have not been posting much on here but as to the Amish we live in a heavy Amish area and for the past 8+ years my nearest neighbors are a young Amish family. The father is about 29 years old and he had covid as did some of his family but not overly bad. I talk to him fairly often since he pumps water out of my creek for his greenhouse, when asked he just says some of their community got vaccinated and some didn't, just as some got fairly sick and some didn't. They won't get very specific about their health care and I don't blame them.
the majority of Amish here have great respect for Dr.s and our hospital. but they feel if it is their time to go, then so be it. I guess the ones that do not like us, stay home. when the elderly get sick at the end of life, they take them home and care for them. they prefer to not stay in the hospital, because they are not babies and can care for themselves at home. they also do not want to be in, just because the doc is worried about a lawsuit. I now think you will get both the vaccine and disease, or at least the disease if you do not get the vaccine. I am vaccinated, and to my knowledge have not had the disease. I no longer think that me getting the vaccine saved the rest of the world, and that is why I do not approve of the mandates. the vaccine mostly protects the individual. an individual should decide for themselves. We originally thought we could snuff it out. no. Brad it is ok for us to disagree.
I have had the same feeling for some time now when seeing the data and also we have had quite a few doctors telling us that the virus still has a good chance of being spread by the vaccinated, which evidence is quite telling as it turns out. The best part, if there is one, is low cases of severity in the vaccinated. Look at the UK and even worst the rest of Europe, even though most cases are not severe over there in the vaccinated, it's still spreading and cases rising a lot in smaller countries, hitting the unvaccinated worst by the severity numbers. Going to find more severity with a larger group of infections to begin with because not everyone is in the best of health. I am strongly against some sort of passport or cutting off someones means of support. That's just craziness. But at the same time look after yourself and be sensible in these times. There are many simple ways to improve your chances.
Here's some good news. Reinfection with Covid is less severe!
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2108120 (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2108120)
"Reinfections had 90% lower odds of resulting in hospitalization or death than primary infections. Four reinfections were severe enough to lead to acute care hospitalization. None led to hospitalization in an ICU, and none ended in death. Reinfections were rare and were generally mild, perhaps because of the primed immune system after primary infection."
Quote from: Southside on November 22, 2021, 09:20:32 AM
That same NYT recently got busted for using mannequins in "mock up" ICU rooms and passing the photos off as genuine.
Alterior motives.
Check out my NYT's recipe in the food section here today. It uses real food not dummies... :D
Lot's of both Amish and Mennonites near us and never seen one at a regular doc place but chiropractors-some will use as I've seen. They mix so much with "English" neighbors and people like me they work for as contractors that little doubt they have suffered some.
As to diet & their health-the activity level of physical work, outside labor, farming and gardens, etc., leans in their favor but those bologna sandwiches they'll eat three of each work day and having a 1/2" thick slab of meat in white bread-maybe not so healthy? They flush it down with off-brand Mtn Dew. The Amish crew that did my shop roof this summer chewed backer and one smoked too. I see lots of junk food in their Walmart carts! LOTS!
I know the neighboring Mennonites here are not getting shots. Neighbor has 5 kids. There's a bunch of stuff going on that ignores public orders. Well, we've had to inform them of the 'circuit breaker' order back a month ago. That's good enough for now. ;D
They are lucky to have you watching over them
Quote from: Paul_H on November 25, 2021, 05:20:59 PM
They are lucky to have you watching over them
They were informed of the 'circuit breaker' order when their intention was to enter the house, plus they had no masks. From that point, we visited with an open door, them out in the yard by their car. But that was the half of it. ;)
Doing my duty as a citizen following the law. ;D
I hope your last sentence was intended to be sarcasm.
No it wasn't. The 'circuit breaker' was a provincial order in place with consequences, namely fines. You think you're immune to fines?
The Government appreciates your diligence. Has work been slow?
Not sure how my work has much to do with it. I'm sure not profiting from COVID 19. :D
There is a much higher law than that of some fools who won a popularity contest, and especially of those who sit in an appointed position.
Just because they say it's right dosen't mean it is. May not always matter, but it sure does now. History is being repeated.
Molon Labe to any fines when it means disparaging another human simply because I was told to do so.
I've never done that to anyone. I presented my experience and that there was a public order in place, that's it. But reporting something is up to each ones discretion I would think, especially when their health may be at risk. That puts a heck of a different spin on it. I do not relish catching COVID. I don't feel a speck of shame about it.
Please fasten your seatbelts and return your tray table to its full upright and locked position. We may experience some slight turbulence... and then explode. (the italics for any other Firefly/Serenity fans ;D)
World takes action as new variant emerges in southern Africa
World takes action as new variant emerges in southern Africa | AP News (https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-new-variant-southern-africa-33fa0983af6c9f961a186f4f4bb1147d)
'Slight turbulence'?
Maybe a bit more like; "here we go again!"
The stock markets are having fits already.
I haven't seen any indicator as to the vaccines being effective against this variant, just that it's highly transmissable.
I have a 10 year old nephew, not jabbed, who had the sniffles at school. School calls his mother and asks for permission to test him for the Covid. She approves it, they run a quick test - Laterlal Flow style - and the results are "inconclusive", so the school sends him home and says he has to go have a swab test. They go and take a swab test, have to wait 48 hours or so, he can't go back to school during this time, results come back negative. About the time he returns to school my sister gets a call from the health department - they inform her he is recorded as being a postitive case, and she must follow the following protocol. She informs them that his test was negative, but they insist that the Laterlal Flow tests are accurate and an inconclusive test is considered a positive test. Nothing you can do to change their mind.
Just in time for the push to jab kids due to the increase in "cases".
Parents have booked vaccine appointments for more than 9300 5-11 years olds in New Brunswick. First doses began today.
Booking for booster shots begins today.
New cases and numbers of severe cases continue to impact the unvaccinated the most in New Brunswick (5x times more). Households with infections isolate 14 days, but fully vaccinated can leave the household with a negative PCR test in day 5, followed by one in 10 days to confirm a negative result. Fine of $480 min. for non compliance.
Full text @
First five- to 11-year-olds vaccinated in province (https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/corporate/promo/covid-19/news/news_release.2021.11.0868.html)
The new variant was first discovered in four fully "vaccinated" people.
Quote from: Southside on November 26, 2021, 03:54:46 PM
The new variant was first discovered in four fully "vaccinated" people.
And it's the unvaccinated that are causing the variants! I wish someone would explain that to me.
it seems the variants came out of countries that were 1st involved with testing the vaccines.
Quote"It's a suspicious variant," said Frank Vandenbroucke, health minister in Belgium, which became the first European Union country to announce a case of the variant.
QuoteOmicron's actual risks are not understood. But early evidence suggests an increased risk of reinfection compared with other highly transmissible variants, the WHO said. That means people who contracted COVID-19 and recovered could be subject to catching it again. It could take weeks to know if current vaccines are less effective against it.
Frank and me both think that it's suspicious. Especially when they aren't sure if natural immunity will be effective but it'll be weeks before they know if vaccines are effective against it. As Jim said it was first discovered in four vaccinated individuals
No, they found 4 cases in vaccinated people among the cases. Never said the first discovery was made in 4 fully vaccinated. But that still does not make it any better, they still caught the bug.
The vaccinated are getting the Delta to, but case severity have been higher in non vaccinated. Let's just hope vaccination will also reduce severity cases in the new strain. If not we're back at square one. :-\
It could be similiar to the "Flu shot' where it changes each season
Or we need a new type of vaccine that does not target one single thing in the virus, but maybe target 6 things, like what Ivermectin does as an antiviral. More targets there are it's a heck of lot easier to kill because the chance of mutations in 6 areas in one generation is pretty slim.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 26, 2021, 05:37:56 PM
Or we need a new type of vaccine that does not target one single thing in the virus, but maybe target 6 things, like what Ivermectin does as an antiviral. More targets there are it's a heck of lot easier to kill because the chance of mutations in 6 areas in one generation is pretty slim.
And tht there is one of the roubles of the MRNA Vaccine, from what i understand it only targets 1 spike protein and leaves the rest of the team all alone.
The current ones yes, that is my understanding to. Maybe they can make one for 6 as well. Who knows , not I. I know Pfizer's new antiviral targets one thing compared to Ivermectin's 6 things. ::)
The spike protein that the vaccine targets is however the one that allows the virus to attack a cell. If a mutation loses that spike, it's either no longer infectious, or it's not actually a SARS cov 2 virus anymore, and is something totally different. This new variant still has that spike just something else about it appears to make it more infectious than the Delta, in the same way that Delta was more infectious than the original. Its simply easier to catch, and so more likely to evade your immune system(natural or vaccinated)
Even the new antiviral drugs are targeting a specific protein on the virus, to bind it up and try to stop it replicating. Imagine sticking corks on the end of the needle the virus is trying to jab you with. Your immune system makes antibodies that do the same ( naturally and from the vaccine), and the artificial antibody treatments inject you with the same proteins. Once each virus is bound up, your body can flush it out before it causes any problems. Repeat a few million times, and hopefully you get better
The problem with a "broad spectrum" is it would have to react with multiple different virus combinations, some unknown? AND, more importantly, it can't react badly with the chemical systems that keep you alive. When you are testing one simple reaction it's easier to check, both in theory, and with some lab rats. Each additional component complicates that.
Ivermectin is broad spectrum against parasites because they all have similar internal function. What poisons ticks will probably kill fleas as well. So note that Ivermectin is a poison for bugs and worms, and not very toxic to mammals. So it's a very effective parasite treatment. But cant "poison" a virus. You can destroy it (heat,chemicals, UV light etc), but those dont work internally. Internally something has to chemically bind with virus, and neutralise it. And that needs some very specific protein molecules.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 26, 2021, 05:15:27 PM
No, they found 4 cases in vaccinated people among the cases. Never said the first discovery was made in 4 fully vaccinated.
I don't know how to link to a Twitter post, but the Botswana Government official office released a press notice on November 25 stating that they found the first four cases in fully "vaccinated" people. The testing was done back on the 7th I believe.
Seeing scientists saying the new variant came from an unvaccinated HIV infected person who was not taking any antivirals. In parts of Africa there is no access to treatment, people are poor.
Ivermectin is a protease inhibitor like the new Pfizer. Fact. Protease 3CL breaks a long protein which is needed to make the virus from the amino acids once the protein chain is broken. It also shows a high affinity to clog both the spike protein and the binding site (ACE2 receptor), also glycoprotein, Nsp14 protein, and PLPro. Don't know what all those are but they are part of the virus replication. So it's a heck of a lot more than a dewormer.
No vaccines out now will work on the new variant they say. How many shots are you willing to take 10, 20, or more
Quote from: Walnut Beast on November 26, 2021, 10:04:40 PM
No vaccines out now will work on the new variant they say. How many shots are you willing to take 10, 20, or more
That is pure speculation. No one Knows how the vaccines will perform because it's NEW.
I hope that's not correct, because that would mean naturally acquired immunity is probably not going to work either... AND it appears easier to catch than the current Delta. Also not known if it's more or less dangerous. Hey it could be less dangerous, but don't count on that.
What's your call, another round of boosters, or a rerun of 2020?
Pfizer already came out and said it will take them 100 days to create a new jab for the Nodnarbogstel-21 variant as it's being called. When you say "another round of boosters" are you paraphrasing Albert Einstein by chance?
Quote from: Walnut Beast on November 26, 2021, 10:04:40 PM
No vaccines out now will work on the new variant they say. How many shots are you willing to take 10, 20, or more
No scientist has made that claim yet, too early, not data to prove it. But I sure hope the vaccine (s) are effective. No idea why some people seem to be wanting vaccines to fail. So they can sing some kind of told you so chant? Got me baffled there. It may possibly be a less severe mutant, one can hope. As of now, we have never yet been given data on how severe those infections have been in patients, zero. The current situation is pure speculation on all sides right now. Regardless, if it isn't effective against it, you can be certain a new vaccine will be developed or the old one(s) tweaked. :) Maybe if flights across continents from Africa are cancelled, it gives us some time for that 100 day lead time of a tweaked version. Early on Europe has shut off flights from Africa. Let's not play the wait and see over here again, that didn't work the last time (2 times let the record show). ::)
Did you know 9 diseases are vaccinated for in young children before they enter grade school in New Brunswick public schools? I still have my vaccine cards from almost 50 years ago. :)
New COVID variant: Canada to ban some travellers | CTV News (https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/canada-bans-travellers-from-southern-africa-as-concerns-mount-over-coronavirus-variant-1.5682764)
I don't see an update on the Canada Travel website yet though.
the term "new variant" says it all. a travel ban, lets us get it later in the game after some research has been done. If you had the disease covid 19, you may have thousands of antibodies. to many parts of the virus. I would think (based on my understanding of virology and the immune system) you would be better equipped to fight the disease from the variant, better than just vexed. It sounds like a different configuration to the spike protein that the monoclonal and immunization are directed to.
Sounds like 32 changes (10 on the receptor binding site) to the spike protein in this one compared to 9 in Delta and 2 in the previous dominant one.
In nature, mutations occur during reproduction. Most miscarriages are mistakes in joining two sets of DNA and happens in 1:4 human pregnancies, even before it is known that a person is pregnant. Viruses reproduce exponentially, and result in a large viral load at the crescendo of the infection. This was why we mitigated (to slow spread) and vaccinated (hoping to shut it down) in the beginning. viruses go from 1 to a million copies in a day (just a guess/statement that may be high or low) :)
the vast majority of mutations (mistakes in replication) do not survive to replicate again, some survive and replicate but do not confer an advantage. In a million cycles it only takes one to turn the world upside down. This does not even address if people are doing things in a lab.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 27, 2021, 04:44:19 AM
No scientist has made that claim yet, too early, not data to prove it. But I sure hope the vaccine (s) are effective. No idea why some people seem to be wanting vaccines to fail. So they can sing some kind of told you so chant? Got me baffled there. It may possibly be a less severe mutant, one can hope.
Respectfully I would say that is not the case although there will always be some despicable people that wish ill upon others. Most of of us have many people we love and cherish on both sides of the fence so there would be no winners.
Sometimes there needs to be a cooling off and a time to look at the strategy whether it be a mechanic or a doctor working on a machine or a patient. Maybe the vaccines will be the thing or maybe it will be boosting the immune system and helping the infected person through the sickness. Placing people into a two tier system and dehumanizing another group works well for dividing and conquering nations but maybe not so well in fighting a plague.
Sometimes it's difficult to separate ill will from brotherhood.
It's hard accepting that we have been lied to by those in a position of trust and authority, even if the the lie was well intended, say for our own good, or simply out of ignorance of the truth. Can you imagine a world where TPTB would actually stand up and say "Even now, we just don't know for sure", they would actually have more credibility than they do now.
Quote from: Southside on November 27, 2021, 11:37:29 PMCan you imagine a world where TPTB would actually stand up and say "Even now, we just don't know for sure", they would actually have more credibility than they do now.
That might be the difference here in NZ. We actually got a lot of that, right from the beginning. If they didn't have the info, "we don't know for sure" was the answer. Other countries have certainly tried to fudge things so they don't look as bad, or don't scare the voters / markets / tourists. But if you start with "Look this is no big deal and totally under control", then it's hard to pivot to "well actually it IS a problem, and we need to do x,y, and z to get out of this mess".
"But you said it wasn't a problem! Were you lying then, or now?":-[ (Or Both?)
As you say that's actually better than being fed a line, or being told what you want to hear, but "We don't know" seems to be a hard line for politicians to actually vocalise.
I sure wouldn't want the job. It's no easy task to deal with this miss. You've got the mess itself and everyone's opinion and conspiracies on top coming from all directions.
Just received a text from a cousin of mine to let me know that my aunt just got admitted to the hospital for Covid pneumonia. Not on a vent (yet).
She was so afraid to catch Covid. She lost my uncle recently along with her sister (my mom) and my dad who passed shortly after getting his first shot. She's had both shots and the booster. Now she wonders why she's so sick after taking all the precautions she could. I don't have an answer for her.
My cousin just text me again to let me know she just tested positive also. More than likely from tending to my aunt after she had some outpatient surgery on her hand at a local hospital. My aunt told me they had her sign something that stated she could potentially catch Covid from being at the hospital for her surgery. Now she has it bad.
I read this thread all the time but refrain from commenting because I'm the farthest thing from being in the know but this has me a bit bummed.
I'm not sure what to believe anymore.
Brent
It's no easy thing Brent when you've been let down. I hope the best for your aunt and family. No idea why anyone has to sign a form like that to get tended to. But usually some kind of form is signed to go ahead with a surgery, even a colonoscopy.
I don't know either. We're a really close knit family that communicates all the time. The surgery she had was Dupuytren's contracture. The document she had to sign was acknowledgement of potential of contracting Covid within the facility while having the surgery on her hand.
She was absolutely scared to death of getting Covid hence getting the vaccine and the booster yet she still got it so bad that she's been admitted to the hospital in rough shape.
I get it that a vaccinated person can still get it and obviously can pass it on but was under the impression that if that was the case you would be a lot less likely to be admitted. Like I said previously I don't know what to believe now.
The day before my dad passed we were visiting him at the nursing home and he told us "We're all victims of the government".
As you can tell, he didn't trust the system. smiley_headscratch
He said a lot of other things to us before he passed but I won't go there as it doesn't fit the topic of this thread.
Sorry for the rant, I'm just having my own personal issues with this ordeal and needed to vent a bit.
Thank you all for your contributions to this and most of all thank you
Doc H for starting "Just the Facts". Hopefully we all gain something from this and we'll see this virus gone someday.
Stay safe,
Brent
Omicron COVD-19 reports so far from South Africa (Dr Angelique Coetzee of SA Med Assoc).
Vaccinated folks have very mild symptoms (summation of many Dr's)
"storm in a teacup" is how she puts it.
Low vaccination rates in African countries will result in new variants.
Dr. Rudo Mathiva, head of an IC unit in a SA hospital.
Low rate of vaccinations. Seeing greater risk if not fully vaccinated and hitting younger folks under 40 the hardest with mild to severe symptoms. Hard hit cases so far are 65% unvaccinated and remainder are half vaccinated.
Can be spread among doubly vaccinated, mild symptoms in vaccinated. [sic. UK doctors are saying as 2 cases found in UK and were linked]
Dr's say will have better data in 2 weeks, so far just clinical experiences.
Brent, I hope she does OK.
Thank you Brian. I hope you and the family are doing well.
Brent
Our thoughts are with your mom. There are no gaurantees in this world, thats for sure. she is not a ventilator , so thats a good sign.
Hospital is the worse place to go!!
But we have to at times. Wife had gall balder surgery. About 4 door down there was signs, Do not enter, This was about 5 years ago.
Brent-
My best to you and your family fighting through this.
A real conundrum....hospitals. I know many, many hospital workers who have gone in every day and not caught the disease, as far as they know. Yet a family member accompanies a patient there and catches it! We don't know the real transmission rates in our facilities. Tough decision whether to go or not, as our other health problems march onward.
Well, the latest news on omincron variant is that it has been found on the continent already. Two passengers on a flight in quarantine after having tested negative before boarding a flight. So they musta got it not long before boarding.
Lots of Dr's have said before this that if you found it in the first place where ever, then it's here. Looks to be true. I would not panic over it, just do what I've been doing for the other versions.
Stay safe and look after yourself.
Hospitals and their government mandates are a large internal concern and likewise for seniors like my wife & I, what with far more frequent medical provider visits than I'd like! I worry not as life must go on!
I actually keep an appointment note in my billfold (I'm not enough of a cell phone freak to keep them on my phone) for handy ready reference while on the phone discussing dates. My medical calendar is far busier than one visit!!! One simple reason is that I'm pro-active toward my health. That said, I'm quite busy with jobs everyday on our place and at the shop. Those doc visits keep my body moving and alive in between.
Come January & February, my appointments will be Florida state parks: walking, bicycles and boat, no medical stuff for a bit.
We, speaking for myself, just cannot stop living based on germs and viruses even though our politicians are hard at work trying to force new mandates as this virus thing heats up even more.
Tomorrow we both get our Moderna boosters-I do wonder how the math plays out what with variants floating around us all?
Quote from: kantuckid on November 29, 2021, 08:53:32 AM
We, speaking for myself, just cannot stop living based on germs and viruses even though our politicians are hard at work trying to force new mandates as this virus thing heats up even more.
Aside from a vaccine, mask wearing in public, distancing and extra hygiene I'm not doing anything else any different than I ever have. Only thing mandates have stopped for me personally is crossing borders for day trips. I never did much shopping in the US, probably never spent more than $40 a trip and most not even that. Just something we always did for something to do sake. Might have a meal at Brookside Restaurant, but don't really miss it. Good cook'n right here at the house. :D
This pandemic hasn't affected work for me at all, I work in the boonies with the moose, partridge and red squirrels. They don't tend to carry much of concern. :D
SwampDonkey said "This pandemic hasn't affected work for me at all, I work in the boonies" to which I can add, pretty much same here, although I can only hope to see a moose.
But it turns out that at least here in Wisconsin, white-tailed deer appear to be almost universally infected with covid! I rarely go hug deer though and I bet you don't either, my New Brunswickian friend!
@wisconsitom (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=43745) are the deer dying from it, or are the conservation people testing live deer, or just those that are harvested. where are you getting data? thanks
Re: covid in deer
I haven't seen any details on mortalities, but I I've seen several articles discussing Covid in deer
Link to NPR article (https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/11/10/1054224204/how-sars-cov-2-in-american-deer-could-alter-the-course-of-the-global-pandemic)
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) I think that was blue tongue in cheek. Down here deer are dying from gun shot wounds. One of the local processors had to close because the 150 deer brought in Saturday exceeded their capacity. City folks look at you like you're speaking latin when you mention longissimus dorsi or psoas major. Almost as funny to watch them at the deer cooler as trying to back a trailer at the boat launch.
First I've heard about it to. I went looking and there is one study at least posted in here:
SARS-CoV-2 exposure in wild white-tailed deer (https://www.pnas.org/content/118/47/e2114828118)
Supplemental
(https://www.pnas.org/lookup/suppl/doi:10.1073/pnas.2114828118/-/DCSupplemental)SARS-COV-2 in Animals (https://www.oie.int/fileadmin/Home/MM/EN_Factsheet_SARS-CoV-2.pdf)
looks like a 30 to 40% (range 7 to 68%) sero positive deer for covid sars 2. of those exposed, so I wondered how they arrived at a 100% rate. thanks.
We are outside the native range up this way and the population is quite sparse. White tails first showed up here around 1910 I believe and that comes from research by Gerry Parker for his books written about guiding and hunting big game up here. He was a research biologist and currently Scientist Emeritus with Canadian Wildlife Service in Sackville, NB.
Maybe I was a little over dramatic. I can't remember where I have been seeing this reportage, nor do I really know what actual percentage of herd infected to be.
But it's early days on this. I doubt it's been accurately characterized yet. It does appear however that deer are at the least, carriers of the virus.
fair enough! thanks. Doc.
Sort of testing the waters here :
Molnupiravir the new pill suggested to handle the omicron virus costs ~ $700 per treatment in non-3rd world markets. Only a couple days previous to this new pills FDA vote and approval by a narrow margin-my wife & I got an email from our KY teacher retirement folks about Medicare costs going up, in their words, "more dollars than ever in the program's history"-it's 14.5%. They go on to explain that the increase is likely to cover the costs for both various new covid treatments combined with medical procedures that were put off during the early down covid medical period of no or few services. Our retirement place has two FT pharmacist's so they have a professional viewpoint, no doubt. Given that our plan includes a paid for Medicare Supplemental while we retirees pay our part of Medicare Plan B from out SS or out of pocket it's newsworthy for us. I am one of the extremely rare teacher retirement people who get any SS at all, so the vast majority nationwide pay out of pocket for Plan B if a retired government worker, like teachers, etc..
Maybe I can do a "Go fund me" thing here on this health thread if it comes down to the covid pill? :-\
Got notice last week on health insurance increase of 4.3%, that's on par with most years and last year was no increase which was a surprise. Up here a lot of the plans are partially covered by medicare from government, so less risk to insurance company.
FACT!! The traveler that brought Omnicron was fully vaccinated CDC says
Not sure about 'the' traveller, maybe it was the first case found in the US? Umm, what is the mandate on travel?? Usually you have to be vaccinated on air travel, so when you're just testing vaccinated travellers, what you going to expect? :D Your 'test' of vaccinated vs unvaccinated is already botched. The two found last weekend in Ottawa were vaccinated, had a PCR test before boarding and not detected until the required test in Canada as a follow up requirement. Again, you can not come here on an airline unless vaccinated.
So far I have heard only mild cases in vaccinated patents. The 'thinking' without enough data, is this is very infectious, but not as deadly. Be 2 or 3 weeks before that is 'backed up' with data. So far the vaccine is helping fight the infection. No point is screaming a vaccinated person got infected anymore, vaccines are still helping reduce severity in most patients. There are still folks who are vaccinated getting severely ill, those are the % whose immune system can't handle the virus well. So none of the vaccines gave you 100 % chance of protection and then with time the 'theoretical' protection rate has declined and no one knew how long. That message was repeated a billion times by doctors, 'we don't know for how long'. Because you can't start at zero info and make up the numbers for 1 , 5 or 10 years from now.
Some of the top scientists are saying the mass multiple vaccinations world wide may have some serious problems and that it may be promoting mutations. Israel is the second highest vaccinated and their cases are really up 🤔
Well, the newest mass hysteria is upon us? ::) In the several newspapers I read today omicron is THE topic. That in spite of the fact that the South Africa lady doc says there are only 4 mild cases there so far. In my more local newspaper, an editorial from a local university public health professor is all over this omicron thing advocating all the things we should be doing to curtail this virus variant-all that stuff we've heard before. Same guy says like any virus it will go on and on and on mutating. So: whats really new?
I see human nature kicking in (as if it hasn't happened) and we'll either get more fearsome & worried, or turn off the stuff all together.
Cute but scarry (to me) TV news from AU showing the roadblocks from two covid quarantine camp escapees being sought after.
Report was followed by saying the Canadian regs saying the un-vaccinated can no longer board a plane or train. In the USA if that happens... 8)
We are peaking again with delta and the nurse shortage. I got called in to work yesterday. we have been on diversion for a week, and no place in our state or a contiguous state to transfer to. We did send one patient to Tulsa 3 days ago. The omicron "is what it is" and will get here in a few months prob. 9 out of 10 folks needed to be in the hospital are not vaccinated. even the people we sent home to return for monoclonal infusion, were nearly all unimmunized.
It seems crazy firing healthcare workers for not wanting the jab. It's happening here in Canada too and may get worse unless others in the industry speak up especially knowing that the vaccinated can spread infection as good as anyone. Lots of capable healthcare workers sidelined,makes no sense unles the system is intentionally being broken.
No idea if it's related to omicron, but the number of spam calls I'm receiving has exploded since it was announced.
Back before COVID the dismantling of infrastructure and thus ICU beds has been going on since 2000, both in the USA and Canada and rural centres are the first targets. And continues during these times. Is there any wonder they are worried about overwhelming the system.
Here's a video, and take it for what it's worth, but it's pretty close to reality no matter what side of the fence you stand on. Yeah, there might be a few jabs in the gut but gives some perspective. Sobering.
US Closing Hospitals At Record Pace During Pandemic - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz46ZQSRdRE&t=2s)
Quote from: LeeB on December 02, 2021, 09:57:15 AM
No idea if it's related to omicron, but the number of spam calls I'm receiving has exploded since it was announced.
Over the last 3 years, 9 out of 10 calls I get is spam and scam. Someone is still looking for a Joanie in all that time, that's my favorite one. :D The phone companies know who they are. How couldn't they? They run the darn network. The 'no idea who they are' doesn't fly.
Quote from: kantuckid on December 02, 2021, 09:02:08 AM
Report was followed by saying the Canadian regs saying the un-vaccinated can no longer board a plane or train. In the USA if that happens... 8)
That was coming into effect anyway before omicron, there was a transition period since October 30th. I'm sure some other stuff has been tweaked a bit since though.
COVID-19 Boarding flights and trains in Canada ? Travel.gc.ca (https://travel.gc.ca/travel-covid/travel-restrictions/domestic-travel)
You have had to be fully vaccinated to enter into the country by plane for some time.
very interesting. most hospitals have boards, and they try to change staff and physical plant use to meet community demands. bigger one's plan to be the tertiary care destination with neonatal and burn unit specialties. The clog in the ICU occurs when a pandemic shows up and large percentages of the population gets sick all at once. We do not discriminate against covid or car accident victim. The problem is the numbers of sick, and with covid and are often in the icu on a vent for over 2 weeks then often do not recover. no choice is made to care for one over the other, but you run out of rooms, staff, and equipment. Small rural health clinics and hospitals only stay open with government subsidy. The "free" clinic behind us gets a 5-million-dollar grant to expand about every 3 years. I watched part of the video, and it seems he feels someone is doing this on purpose. Most are decisions made locally by the board to best serve the community or region. When a ship was sent to NY after they begged for ventilators, then they barely utilized the beds. tough decisions. We take the best care of people we can, but there are limits beyond our control. It is not Christmas, or using your parents credit card, there are costs and limits to what can be done. Mitigation and the vaccine are part of the big plan. I do not agree with mandates, but I do agree with getting vaccinated. It is like the guy that goes out driving around in a flood and now is stuck and needs rescued. apologize all you want, but others have now put their lives at risk to save you. We also try to save the life of the guy holding a family at gun point after they are taken down by police. And the impossible meth addict that comes in for the 40th time threatening all the staff and disrupting the care of everyone else. I do not know how the vaccine and the newest virus will pan out, but we keep showing up for work.
My 92 year-old mom had to go to the hospital yesterday, here in this medium-sized city. Broken hip, return of cancer....I think she would qualify for a bed.
Too bad all the beds are filled with covid patients. She had to hang out in the ER overnight. This same hospital is sending patients to Kenosha, a hundred and a half miles away.
This is an anecdote, a factual one.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 02, 2021, 10:52:38 AM
Mitigation and the vaccine are part of the big plan. I do not agree with mandates, but I do agree with getting vaccinated. It is like the guy that goes out driving around in a flood and now is stuck and needs rescued. apologize all you want, but others have now put their lives at risk to save you. We also try to save the life of the guy holding a family at gun point after they are taken down by police. And the impossible meth addict that comes in for the 40th time threatening all the staff and disrupting the care of everyone else. I do not know how the vaccine and the newest virus will pan out, but we keep showing up for work.
No it's not like that. Your last statement says it ,you don't know if the vaccines will work.You don't agree with mandates but take it anyway because it's part of the big plan. There doesn't seem to be a proper control group in this massive experiment and I have not heard any real alternative to this unconstitutional mandate.
Some are pushing for doctor assisted suicide or termination of pregnancies but it's somehow important to these same people that we don't die of covid. They say we will clog up a system that is short handed because of concerned doctors and nurses that have lost their jobs because they object to the big untested plan.
It's been talked about before here that millions went to work in 2020 unprotected by any ppe because of shortages and did it gladly to make sure Dr's and nurses were protected. Millions of people put their lives on the line everyday in hundreds of different industries,(oil&gas,logging,mining,driving taxi,711 clerks) for a paycheck quietly in the pursuit of happiness under the constitution.
Quote from: LeeB on December 02, 2021, 09:57:15 AM
No idea if it's related to omicron, but the number of spam calls I'm receiving has exploded since it was announced.
In today's press conference at the White House, Jen Psaki confirmed that robocalls are going out regarding where to get the vaccine and booster in your area. The reporter said that he has never had so many robocalls on his cellphone. She laughed and said that apparently CVS is getting aggressive.
Quote from: kantuckid on December 02, 2021, 09:02:08 AM
Cute but scarry (to me) TV news from AU showing the roadblocks from two covid quarantine camp escapees being sought after.
Report was followed by saying the Canadian regs saying the un-vaccinated can no longer board a plane or train. In the USA if that happens... 8)
It isn't cute at all. This is really really scary. covid camps in AU and I am banned from travelling in Canada without a vaccine . It is a fact! Our Parliment has been shut down, they are using Zoom to debate. Yet they are all double vaccinated but Trudeau will not let them get together.
the vaccine works to overall reduce the severity of disease. I do not believe in making a law for people to have to get the vaccine. If you get it, it should be because you think your chances are better with it. We see every day that the majority of the people testing positive and getting admitted to the hospital are unvaccinated. 90%. The clog is not manufactured, but the result of the things we take care of year to year, plus add in a pandemic. I said we do not yet know how the current vaccine will work with the newest variant. It may be the new omicron will be so infectious and so benign, it could burn itself out. We had a shortage before the mandate. It is on hold now in Kansas at our hospital. we put it off as long as we could, but if you accept Medicare, you have to do the mandate or not be paid. So, no one wanted it (the mandate) at our hospital but had to if we wanted paid. I am not a supporter of suicide or abortion, thanks. What we see every day and what you are talking about do not match up. Plenty of healthcare folks have dies from covid in the process of caring for all kinds of disease during this pandemic. the control in this experiment is that half our community is vaccinated, and 90% of people testing positive and are being admitted are not vaccinated. I was commenting on the video that seemed to imply that "we" have been disassembling our ICU capacity and shutting down hospitals over 20 years in anticipation of this pandemic? whomever we is. Hospitals do get donations, but if they close, it is because they cannot keep the doors open. It is a business. the first-year class in our nursing school is down numbers. this will go on even if the pandemic ends. please re-read what I wrote, and I am happy to address any concerns you have with it.
Quote from: Paul_H on December 02, 2021, 12:45:04 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on December 02, 2021, 10:52:38 AM
Mitigation and the vaccine are part of the big plan. I do not agree with mandates, but I do agree with getting vaccinated. It is like the guy that goes out driving around in a flood and now is stuck and needs rescued. apologize all you want, but others have now put their lives at risk to save you. We also try to save the life of the guy holding a family at gun point after they are taken down by police. And the impossible meth addict that comes in for the 40th time threatening all the staff and disrupting the care of everyone else. I do not know how the vaccine and the newest virus will pan out, but we keep showing up for work.
No it's not like that.
I think it is exactly like that. My father had to have a heart value replaced recently, he is vaccinated and did all the docs asked to prep including extreme distancing so not even a breakthrough case would jeopardies his appointed surgery date and time. Yet his procedure was delayed and risked getting cancelled and rescheduled due to staffing shortages related to the huge influx of COVID patients with a recent MN spike is hospitalization. Guess what, you can see the data yourself at COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Weekly Update - Minnesota Dept. of Health (https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/stats/vbt.html) but there is a huge difference in the weekly rate in those being hospitalized. Around 5 per 100,000 for vaccinated, around 80 per 100,000 for unvaccinated.
How much lower would the hospital system strain be if it wasn't for unvaccinated taking up more resources because of their "choice". So while you may make a choice, don't pretend it doesn't have consequence beyond yourself.
A guy I know well lost his nephew last friday ,29 years old to a brain bleed. Recently vaxxed. There is a lot of these happening in our area. Fact
I don't accept that the unvaccinated are the cause of your dad's or anyone's problems. Anybody now it seems can infect another.
And the beyond myself, read back and see,we showed up every single day on the job,never once did we hide away from our duty.We we concerned" Dang right we were.
Doc,
are you saying that layoffs of healthcare workers has not had any effect on staff shortages?
It stands to reason that we see things differently because you are immersed in it in your work place and we see dozens of normal healthy people every day year round and those that have had covid have lived through it. The one person I know that died with covid he had other serious health issues and died just shy of 80. I know one man that died within hours of his first vax and two more within a week but that is taboo to explore or question.
I understand folks concerned for their family but it's hard to ignore the tyrannical methods used around the world in forcing something into a citizen's bloodstream without their consent and the tacit agreement of it.
It shouldn't take a lawyer to be able to take other treatments?
Dying COVID-19 Patient Recovers After Court Orders Hospital to Administer Ivermectin (https://www.theepochtimes.com/dying-covid-19-patient-recovers-after-court-orders-hospital-to-administer-ivermectin_4130754.html)
QuoteThe drug "most definitely" saved the elderly patient's life "because his condition changed right immediately after he took ivermectin," attorney for the family, Kirstin M. Erickson of Chicago-based Mauck and Baker (https://www.mauckbaker.com/)
(https://www.mauckbaker.com/)
The medical staff mandate executive order has been shot down in all 50 states, it is no longer enforceable.
Paul,
With all do respect to everyone's right to opinions.
How do you reconcile the fact that in state with over 70% vaccination rate, such a disproportionate amount of hospital resources is dedicated to unvaccinated people? This is not my opinion, these are the figures easily available for review by anyone that wishes see them. Even if you consider the potential statistical error factors in data collection and reporting, the overall magnitude of the differences is pretty overwhelming.
If your position is that an individuals right to choice to not be vaccinated outweighs that inequity in resource allocation and overall impact on others, that I can respect is at least a philosophical position that is very open to moral and ethical debates and discussion regarding individual vs collective societal rights.
If you are stating that one's choice doesn't impact others at least to some degree, I would suggest the premise for that position is fundamentally flawed and clearly negated by overwhelming evidence to the contrary in this case and many more of historical evidence.
I took your previous comments as indicating the latter, if that is not the case, it is my mistake in understanding your point and I apologize.
Have you read the constitution and what it has done for you and why people flee from communist countries and tyranny and risk life and limb to get here to Canada and the USA? Blood has been shed and lives have been lost, King George didn't hand out those freedoms they were taken. Don't cheapen it for a temporary feeling of safety.
We've been exposed and have felt ill in 2020,maybe we had it maybe not.Getting to a clinic was like trying to break in to Ft Knox. We avoid the elderly and the weak but we all have jobs to do as part of society. The jabs are not a prevention like they were first touted to be they are now another form of help with a hint of tyranny behind it. Those vaccinated two and three times can still spread the virus,can still get sick and even die.
Curious..... I have never heard or read that the vaccine was 100% effective but have heard and read opinions that it does not work, who is it that proved that the vaccine has not prevented someone from getting covid?
I'm speculating that there may be millions of people who have been vaccinated that have not caught covid, could it be the vaccine?
Look back a few pages where it showed CNN's changing reports from last Spring to Sept. Have there been more cases in 2021 than 2020? The vaccines started in Dec 2020 so there should be a real marked decline in infections. I don't know if that is right or wrong
I try not to post in this group, i don't think anything i say is going to change anyone's perception of Covid. But how about 4 easy facts i think we can all agree with.
Fact 1. The covid19 shot is not a vaccine any more than the flu shot is.
Fact 2 If every single human on he planet gets the Covid shot and all the booster shots, Covid 19 would not go away. It would still exist and still be carried and transmitted by humans.
Fact 3 Covid 19 is not like Measles, Polio, (with current medical technology) humans can not be made immune to it.
Fact 4 We do not currently know the long term effects from the Covid 19 shots, positive or negative effects
Four simple FACTS i would hope we could all agree on. Correct ?
The flu shot and covid vaccines are in fact by definition vaccines. You're mistaken about your first fact.
I will add one:
We do not currently know the long term effects from having Covid 19.
To me what matters most is if the infection causes serious illness after I've been exposed and being vaccinated fully. If I catch it and I have mild symptoms it has worked, if I never get it it has worked. All this you 'got it despite being vaccinated' doesn't matter until you become seriously ill. Pretty much anyone can spread it, not everyone. So far, the odds are in my favour, the numbers show most of the serious cases are in unvaccinated. The percentage daily positive results in Canada found from testing is 3%, over a 7 day average.
When you compare with 1 year ago infections right now are 1/3 or less of the same time last year. When you look at us on Canada's east coast, we don't even register on the scale of things. We have cases for sure, but it's not gotten out of hand. Look at the data, we hover pretty close to the y axis in a fairly straight path, which is a good thing. We get little bumps, but never thousands of people in new cases.
COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca (https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html)
Quote from: Hilltop366 on December 02, 2021, 05:47:29 PM
I will add one:
We do not currently know the long term effects from having Covid 19.
Yes, we don't know as we'll need time and study.
However, there are already people looking at and working on starting studies and the the the overall early trend indications for long term cognitive, heart, lung and other longer impacts which will be more fully reveled with time are disconcerting.
Hope for patients with post-COVID syndrome - Mayo Clinic News Network (https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/hope-for-patients-with-post-covid-syndrome/)
Beyond Brain Fog: Neurologist Details Long-Lasting Symptoms Post-COVID ? NBC Chicago (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/beyond-brain-fog-neurologist-details-long-lasting-symptoms-post-covid/2697309/)
COVID ?Long Haulers?: Long-Term Effects of COVID-19 | Johns Hopkins Medicine (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-long-haulers-long-term-effects-of-covid19)
While I haven't seen much for peer reviewed data as the process is only getting going, most suggest that there is or suspect a correlation noted between reduction of covid illness via vaccination with reduction in likely hood of long covid and the level of severity of long covid symptoms.
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 02, 2021, 05:37:08 PM
The flu shot and covid vaccines are in fact by definition vaccines. You're mistaken about your first fact.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html
QuoteBefore the change, the definition for "vaccination" read, "the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity (http://web.archive.org/web/20210826113846/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm) to a specific disease." Now, the word "immunity" has been switched to "protection (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm)."
Some verbal gymnastics to fit though the hoop
Now while we're at it can someone point me to a study of long term effects of the vaccine?
Quote from: Paul_H on December 02, 2021, 06:22:49 PM
Now while we're at it can someone point me to a study of long term effects of the vaccine?
Now that is a great question and I've been trying to find good data to compare to risk from covid. Its quite hard to find a balanced report that clearly shows the risks of each and lays them out for easy comparative analysis.
Most of what I found shows the risk from vaccine is a magnitude lower then risk from covid with no immunity (natural or vaccine induced). However, most information is piecemeal, I've love to read a well research paper laying out the statistics side by side.
Anyone sourced anything close?
I have recently just read, The Benefits of Vaccinating Kids against COVID Far Outweigh the Risks of Myocarditis - Scientific American (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-benefits-of-vaccinating-kids-against-covid-far-outweigh-the-risks-of-myocarditis1/)
which models the question for kids on vaccine risk vs risk from covid. Course the trouble with models is multitude, but interesting nonetheless.
Quote from: doc henderson on November 27, 2021, 07:11:18 AM
If you had the disease covid 19, you may have thousands of antibodies. to many parts of the virus. I would think (based on my understanding of virology and the immune system) you would be better equipped to fight the disease from the variant, better than just vexed. It sounds like a different configuration to the spike protein that the monoclonal and immunization are directed to.
This was from a few days ago and it is what I've heard from other sources. Our immune system is a miracle
some lite reading for those that can't sleep tonight ;D
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00224-3/fulltext (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00224-3/fulltext)
This is a nice overview of current vaccines
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison (https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison)
Myocarditis after mRNA study in Israel
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109730 (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109730)
Myocarditis risk
https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/comment/myocarditis-risks-covid-19-vaccines/ (https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/comment/myocarditis-risks-covid-19-vaccines/)
meta-analysis study
https://idpjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40249-021-00915-3 (https://idpjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40249-021-00915-3)
Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee Meeting
https://www.fda.gov/media/153514/download (https://www.fda.gov/media/153514/download)
Quote from: Paul_H on December 02, 2021, 07:01:04 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on November 27, 2021, 07:11:18 AM
If you had the disease covid 19, you may have thousands of antibodies. to many parts of the virus. I would think (based on my understanding of virology and the immune system) you would be better equipped to fight the disease from the variant, better than just vexed. It sounds like a different configuration to the spike protein that the monoclonal and immunization are directed to.
This was from a few days ago and it is what I've heard from other sources. Our immune system is a miracle
Yes it is, but some context is necessary.
You need to get and survive the initial virial infection with the least negative impact, I would suggest the vaccine gives you the greatest chance of encountering a covid variant and have a milder result. You will have with additional opportunities to increase your immune system beyond that base level of projection to developed with additional encounters which at this point, is pretty much a when, not if scenario.
We are using the miracle of our immune system to fight with a little help. This is the very principle of modern vaccine medicine. Just look at the history of polio, measles, small pox, chicken pox, rabies and many others.
I'm not saying medicine is perfect. Notice it is practiced, which is always been a interesting term to me. However, anyone that doubts the overall effect of modern gains in medicine should spend a little time with long range life expectancy charts and the changes over time.
Alright, enough from me for a while. Time for dinner, have a great night all!
Quote from: Lostinmn on December 02, 2021, 06:37:30 PM
Quote from: Paul_H on December 02, 2021, 06:22:49 PM
Now while we're at it can someone point me to a study of long term effects of the vaccine?
Now that is a great question and I've been trying to find good data to compare to risk from covid. Its quite hard to find a balanced report that clearly shows the risks of each and lays them out for easy comparative analysis.
Most of what I found shows the risk from vaccine is a magnitude lower then risk from covid with no immunity (natural or vaccine induced). However, most information is piecemeal, I've love to read a well research paper laying out the statistics side by side.
Anyone sourced anything close?
I have recently just read, The Benefits of Vaccinating Kids against COVID Far Outweigh the Risks of Myocarditis - Scientific American (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-benefits-of-vaccinating-kids-against-covid-far-outweigh-the-risks-of-myocarditis1/)
which models the question for kids on vaccine risk vs risk from covid. Course the trouble with models is multitude, but interesting nonetheless.
That is totally backwards of a talk show I listened to by a expert that was on. He and several others said the kids should absolutely not be or have been vaccinated. The risks and after affects are more than the benefits. Also in the general population that they are finding out many complications in cardiovascular problems from the vaccines
Quote from: Lostinmn on December 02, 2021, 07:11:09 PM
Quote from: Paul_H on December 02, 2021, 07:01:04 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on November 27, 2021, 07:11:18 AM
If you had the disease covid 19, you may have thousands of antibodies. to many parts of the virus. I would think (based on my understanding of virology and the immune system) you would be better equipped to fight the disease from the variant, better than just vexed. It sounds like a different configuration to the spike protein that the monoclonal and immunization are directed to.
This was from a few days ago and it is what I've heard from other sources. Our immune system is a miracle
Yes it is, but some context is necessary.
You need to get and survive the initial virial infection with the least negative impact, I would suggest the vaccine gives you the greatest chance of encountering a covid variant and have a milder result. You will have with additional opportunities to increase your immune system beyond that base level of projection to developed with additional encounters which at this point, is pretty much a when, not if scenario.
We are using the miracle of our immune system to fight with a little help. This is the very principle of modern vaccine medicine.
My partner's cousin(50 years old, was healthy) listened to some folks with similar opinions, and her PCP. She wanted natural immunity; so tested many times for covid, but all were negative. She got vaccinated 6 months ago since not being able to catch it for a natural immunity. for the last 4, and half months, she's suffered from kidney infections that won't go away. She's been hospitalized twice for Sepsis. Due to the length of time her PCP, and hospitalists have had her on antibiotics, she's now suffering from C.diff.
While she's undergone every test I think there is, the docs throw up their hands, and say they don't know. What they've been open with her about, is that effectively she has no immune system at this point. Of course, never stating the obvious, the big change was the Pfizer shot(s).
The cousin gave us her shot(s) batch numbers today, and we looked them up. Both sets were in batches with numerous adverse reactions. (Why wasn't this done at the hospital?; where's the public protection against toxic batches?)
What's her recourse? None, all EUA, and while drug companies stocks soar, she gets to report to VAERS, and if she's lucky get a few hundred bucks for her troubles, and bloody diarrhea. What a deal!
On that note, VAERS is highly inaccurate, due to lack of reporting, yet they're nearing 20k deaths attributed directly to these different injections? The vaccine is labeled 'safe, and effective', yet it doesn't stop spread, sickness, or even death from Covid.
And before anyone wants to argue that last sentence above, they say sickness is more mild, and death, they know is somehow less painful???, but that's the clincher, still sick, and still dead.
@Tristen (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=52938) we will never knw about fact two untill everyone is vaccinated. we will not know all the long-term issues with covid or the shot for many years.
Until or unless?
either. cmon Paul.
It's a bigger deal than you might know doc and I don't find any of this amusing. People I know are losing everything they worked for and in other countries are getting their heads bashed.
Gentlemen-
Passions are high. Please simmer down. Realize that there is no changing anybody's point of view on this divided topic. That is a hallmark of the Restricted section. If we can't have discourse instead of shouting, that's where you'll be reading these posts. It's really your choice. This thread used to be amazingly productive. Do you see it that way now?
Doctorb
Nobody is shouting so far, all have been respectful and heard
I respectfully disagree. Of late, this thread reads exactly like a thread from the Restricted Section, which was not its intent. If anyone wants to argue the topic, please take it over there. Thank you.
And that is ok.
I read a lot of good questions today and honest answers and unanswered questions. No name calling or character assasination.
@Runningalucas (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=23004) I have never heard or know of any reason that these would be related. (uti and cdiff, and the shot).
Nobody is shouting, nobody is being rude, the thread is fine. The issue appears to be that you disagree with what is being said. I fought for your right to disagree and express your opinion, and I would do it again. That right extends to everyone, nobody can claim exclusivity to it.
Today Twitter declared that information from the American Heart Association can not be trusted, they red flagged it or whatever they do to information they don't like.
The truth needs to be spoken, the censorship stops, irregardless of who is uncomfortable with it.
the VAERS is meant to cast a wide net, not only capture real side effects. you are asking it to be more than it is. It is inaccurate because anyone can report any and all perceived reactions to anything. that does not make a cause-and-effect reaction. maybe she had no immune system before the shot, and did not take to the immunization, and clear UTIs and ended up with CDIFF after numerous antibiotics. Maybe some provider gave her 4 rounds of antibiotics without a culture based on her complaint, and she got C-Diff the same year she got the shot. I am sorry she is not doing well. but may be true, true and unrelated. i do not know of 20 K deaths from the vaccine.
Paul- we simply disagree. This is not about name calling. It's about the substance and tone of the posts, which have been increasingly harsh over the past few weeks. Personal attacks are not allowed anywhere, including the restricted section, on the FF. So just because there have been no personal affronts does not mean that the thread doesn't belong in the Restricted section.
What used to be an open discussion of findings about Covid has become a back and forth between the two opposing ideologies. If I am being overly protective of the public portion of the the Forum, then you can blame me. I do hear from members, some of whom don't post on this topic, and their opinion is that things have deteriorated. That is at the heart of my attempts to redirect the tenor of the thread, or redirect it from the Health and Safety Section.
Nope, Southside, that is not my intent.
gosh, :o (on a lighter note) me in a room with 3 administrators, having a talk! :) . feels like medical executive committee. :D :D :D
guys, I will take a break. This has been a good source for many and has survived decline in the past. yes, truth is in the eyes of the beholder, but we are trying to thread the needle. we may all have different opinions in ten years. God bless us all, and the USA.
Quote from: doctorb on December 02, 2021, 09:58:12 PM
What used to be an open discussion of findings about Covid has become a back and forth between the two opposing ideologies.
That's what we called a debate in school. I really enjoyed the new member that posted the 4 facts and the discussion that followed on both sides of the issues although there are many differing views.
Doc Henderson we thank you for your patience and endurance
Thanks gentleman.
Don't take too long of a break Doc. Your knowledge, experience, and opinion is very valuable and needs to be expressed.
Thank you. I am due for a rest. getting older. my buddy whos son just had the heart and liver transplant in Nashville, overstayed and I got a call to work yesterday. we have been busy, and this is a recovery day. Dr. Slomka and his family are doing well. We all mean so much to each other. many of us are friends outside the forum. that is worth a lot. I feel this is part of my family, and I enjoy all the conversations. I will check in tomorrow. Love you guys!
Thank you also @doctorb (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10176) @Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) @Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) and all others that put their heart and soul into this thread.
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.10712
Has anyone read this study?
It's gaining a lot of attention due to Twitter putting some kind of restriction on it.
To me it looks like The American Heart Association has some concerns about the mRNA causing future heart problems.
Looks like we are down one doctor, I'd sincerly like to hear a Doctors take on this study.
Let me offer some observations from my personal experience of the last six days in the middle of the health care system. Last Saturday my 80 year old wife with dementia had been complaining for three days about mild nausea also complained about a side ache so about 1 PM I took her to the local ER which is part of the Mayo Clinic Health systems. They were so busy it took till about 5+ PM to get a scan that told the doc she had a badly inflamed appendix. During that wait there were two helicopter arrivals and departures, multiple ambulance arrivals and departures and on one occasion as I stepped out in the hallway, I observed a man in a private car arrival who told the nurse that "I tested positive for Covid two weeks ago" and when he pointed to his vehicle I decided to return to my wife's cubicle ASAP.
After we were told my wife probably needed surgery we were told they had no beds nor surgeons available so we were being transferred to Rochester Mayo by ambulance (about 45 minutes away) for further care. We both arrived in Rochester ER (her by ambulance, me by car) about 10 PM and after a brief evaluation of the tests they took her into emergency surgery at 1 AM Sunday. By about 3:30 AM Sunday the surgeon told me he had taken out a perforated appendix that he described as "nasty." She is now on a rough road to recovery and most likely will come home this morning (Friday).
So as to the Covid connection, the St. Marys Campus Mayo Clinic Hospital, Saint Marys Campus (https://www.mayoclinic.org/patient-visitor-guide/minnesota/campus-buildings-maps/mayo-clinic-hospital-saint-marys-campus) contains 1265 beds and 70 operating rooms which are fully staffed as needed only because Mayo has immense resources with local semi-retired and part time staff. The nurses told me they have been operating between red flag (essentially full) and yellow flag (near full) for some time. The red or yellow flag indicates to all departments the urgency of discharging patients who are ready to be discharged. No lingering allowed. The Covid floors are 100 % full and 100 % full of unvaccinated patients. They have very tight security with masks in all facilities, every patient is allowed a two visitor list which cannot be changed, and all employees must be vaccinated, no exceptions.
So, after this last almost one-week experience, if I would offer an opinion, it would be that while I respect everyone's freedom and rights and have long ago fought to defend those rights, don't believe for one minute that your decision to refuse the vaccination only affects you. We all live on this planet together and may only continue to do so by working together for the common good. Enough said.
It's extremely hard to change someone's mind on this vaccine question once they have made up their mind. I got the jab, no side effects that I have noticed in the last 6 months, wife no way will she get it no matter what.
In october she had the exact same health issue as Gary C's wife, 7 days in the hospital and another month at home recovering. Her surgeon and the doctors that did daily rounds all tried to get her to get the shot. They told her point blank that as sick as she was when she got there and the toxins that were in her system for another week plus that if she caught covid unvaccinated it may have been too much for her system to overcome. Regardless she remains unvaccinated, we don't even talk about it anymore. Waste of my breath.
I appreciate both Doc H and Doctor B real world observations and analysis of these claims and publications. Can' beat a guy in his own area of expertise. I could care less what Bill Gates thinks about world health, but if my computer isn't working he's the guy to talk to.
Good morning. that is concerning and may be an indicator of the inflammation that is thought to lead to acute coronary thrombosis or acute ST elevation MI. heart attack. so the decision will be made if the vaccine is a no go (doubt) or do we give ASA to people say over 50 as an example. or move to a different vaccine. We will also have to see if this translates into heart problems' (probably) or is it just a false + indicator from the vaccine. I think we all had suspicions for thrombotic events, and this indicates and increase blood vessel inflammation. the goal of a vaccine is to increase immunity, and when activated that is basically inflammation. If this made the vaccine more dangerous than the disease (covid) then we would do away with it. (the shot)
WOW @Ricker (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=30091) . you know Bill Gates? :) :) :)
He won't take my calls, irritated that I use Apple products...
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on December 02, 2021, 05:37:08 PM
The flu shot and covid vaccines are in fact by definition vaccines. You're mistaken about your first fact.
Ok, i agree with the current definition of "vaccines" the flu shot and the covid shot are now vaccines. I guess i did not know the definition of vaccine had changed. That seems very convenient.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 02, 2021, 08:25:48 PM
@Tristen (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=52938) we will never knw about fact two untill everyone is vaccinated. we will not know all the long-term issues with covid or the shot for many years.
Fact #2 covid is carried and transmitted by some animals so even if every human gets the shot, it will still be on the planet.
Quote from: Stephen1 on December 02, 2021, 01:07:10 PM
Quote from: kantuckid on December 02, 2021, 09:02:08 AM
Cute but scarry (to me) TV news from AU showing the roadblocks from two covid quarantine camp escapees being sought after.
Report was followed by saying the Canadian regs saying the un-vaccinated can no longer board a plane or train. In the USA if that happens... 8)
It isn't cute at all. This is really really scary. covid camps in AU and I am banned from travelling in Canada without a vaccine . It is a fact! Our Parliment has been shut down, they are using Zoom to debate. Yet they are all double vaccinated but Trudeau will not let them get together.
I was trying to play nice... My in house comment to my wife when we watched those two items on TV were far different than anything the floats in this thread!
Quote from: Paul_H on December 02, 2021, 03:45:45 PM
Have you read the constitution and what it has done for you and why people flee from communist countries and tyranny and risk life and limb to get here to Canada and the USA? Blood has been shed and lives have been lost, King George didn't hand out those freedoms they were taken. Don't cheapen it for a temporary feeling of safety.
We've been exposed and have felt ill in 2020,maybe we had it maybe not.Getting to a clinic was like trying to break in to Ft Knox. We avoid the elderly and the weak but we all have jobs to do as part of society. The jabs are not a prevention like they were first touted to be they are now another form of help with a hint of tyranny behind it. Those vaccinated two and three times can still spread the virus,can still get sick and even die.
Regarding King George, The most recent issue of Smithsonian has what I felt was a weird take on old king George. it goes on to great length to make him out as a great guy, generous in all his ways, etc., etc.. Says the American revolution was economically based not at all based on George's treatment of people. So, depending on which form of history you choose, "good George" or "nasty, tyrannical George", maybe your example works? :D
Back to covid...where we and some medical professionals pick and choose how they react to the virus.
I watched DR Oz on TV last night and found him to have a very relaxed yet realistic view overall of the "pandemic". Interestingly for me, his view was the polar opposite of the U of KY public health professors far more liberal editorial in yesterday's local newspaper.
Seems we can find whatever "proves" our personal point of view from an actual doctor based/medical related source here or elsewhere.
I guess I could walk away and shut up but appreciate the personal touch both docs add in this thread or I wouldn't come here.
Thanks to both docs for taking your time to attend.
Quote from: Tristen on December 02, 2021, 05:04:09 PM
I try not to post in this group, i don't think anything i say is going to change anyone's perception of Covid. But how about 4 easy facts i think we can all agree with.
Fact 1. The covid19 shot is not a vaccine any more than the flu shot is.
Fact 2 If every single human on he planet gets the Covid shot and all the booster shots, Covid 19 would not go away. It would still exist and still be carried and transmitted by humans.
Fact 3 Covid 19 is not like Measles, Polio, (with current medical technology) humans can not be made immune to it.
Fact 4 We do not currently know the long term effects from the Covid 19 shots, positive or negative effects
Four simple FACTS i would hope we could all agree on. Correct ?
#2 I said we will not know unless it happens. not that it would. It is possible to be carried by animals and not be carried or transmitted by humans. coronavirus has been around for a long time
#3 not yet, but that was true originally for polio. now with measles, the immunity wanes over time and requires a booster.
#4 I agree we do not know of all of the long-term effects of either the shot OR the disease and will not for a long time ... by definition. this is still very early in the life of this virus.
tetanus, rabies, MMR and other childhood immunizations, and covid are all immunizations.
It is poss. that the less virulent, more infectious omicron could take over, and the whole thing becomes like a cold (like the other corona viruses we have known for 40 years) and we no longer need a shot. unless it continues to mutate. this is where many cancers come from, (mutations and undoing control of replication of cells, making tumors) so it is possible the research done may be the key to solving the cancer thing. good thoughts and thanks for posting your comments @Tristen (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=52938)
interesting overview regarding Covid, hospitalizations, and kids.
Covid and Age - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-infection-vaccine.html?smid=url-share)
Quote from: kantuckid on December 03, 2021, 09:15:33 AM
Regarding King George, The most recent issue of Smithsonian has what I felt was a weird take on old king George. it goes on to great length to make him out as a great guy, generous in all his ways, etc., etc.. Says the American revolution was economically based not at all based on George's treatment of people. So, depending on which form of history you choose, "good George" or "nasty, tyrannical George",
A fascinating subject for another thread if you want to start one. United Empire Loyalists would agree with the Smithsonian but they had to flee after Washington's victory. History is very interesting.
United Empire Loyalists :: United Empire Loyalist Heritage Centre and Park (http://uel.ca/united-empire-loyalists/)
I don't normally read nor trust anything in the NY Times and that link confirms that I have exceeded my quota. :)
Regarding the study posted by leeroyjd....
i concur with the comments of doc h. The marker is a known predictor of cardiac events. It appears that the vaccine affects the marker for 2 months post-vaccine. What is not shown is whether this translates to a higher rate of cardiac events after vaccine injection, or whether this is merely a short-term elevation in the marker that is transitory and does not equate to cardiac issues in real life. Understand that the original purpose of the marker has a time frame attempting to predict heart related outcomes over five years. So, raising concern about the potential cardiac effects of the vaccine is good. If the marker returns to normal over a relatively short period of time, does that mean that one is vulnerable to cardiac events only while it is elevated, even later in life when the marker is normalized, or not at all? We don't yet know.
good question!
Gary_C
I can't tell whether you read it or not from your post! To summarize, the article demonstrates that kids are not the problem and provides further insight from data collection in the Seattle area regarding hospitalizations and Covid. It is not your typical NYT opinion piece, and I doubt that it would have any long-term effects on any that read it. :D
Dr. Campbell reviewed that study awhile back in his videos. Was cautiously optimistic, but not enough data to be definitive. But recently posted a video of the effect of the virus and of not aspirating and effects on the circulatory system, with the virus producing higher incidence than the vaccine. Still rare events in millions of doses. Yes, some deaths on either side of the fence, more from disease side effects. But very small numbers either way.
How common is the event? Is it rare? Who has the crystal ball to see 5 or more years out?
Sometimes things correlate, but correlation is not causation. Many times it is shown that there are other factors unknown at the time.
doctorb
No, I was not permitted to read the article as the link informed me that I have already seen the maximum allowed viewings of their fiction of three articles before having the privilege of paying for their stomach turning yet Pulitizer Prize winning fiction. ;D
Isn't that interesting how they say the new variant had just came to the US. Now they are finding cases everywhere now 🤔. Six in our state alone!! No new regulations or protocols for people traveling in and out of the country 🙄
cat is already out of the bag, contact tracing may not help. can slow it down a bit.
Before they wanted to shut everything down or cancel big gatherings or events. Now it's no restrictions on anything and push the jab. But they say new cases are higher than ever. Interesting. Late night shows ( Jimmy Fallon ) of the sort and the others that loved to tell you to wear a mask non stop how they stopped wearing one after everything turned blue. The guests and hosts hug and kiss all the time but if your in the audience you better wear a mask and a current vaccinated card. Hypocrisy!
I agree, and if this was the hypocritical political thread I would comment. :) viruses like influenza spread rapidly and make the rounds every winter. It is considered part of nature, like a predator prey thing. I think it is the politics keeping it (covid) in the news and making everyone choose a side. We are seeing flu now, but did not last year, thought to be from effective mitigation towards Covid. it is funny, my computer still does not know how to spell covid. must be nice.
New cases aren't higher than ever, barely a 3rd of what there were back before the jabs became a thing in Dec-January 2021. On Nov 30 the 7-day average in the US was 82,000 new cases, back in Jan 9, it was 254,000. Plus they are testing more. Where in the world did you see that lie?
Way back there we had to try something to slow spread, we had 'no vaccines' my friend. It's a hard call to make for anyone at the podium and I just do not agree with the notion that it is a 'control' experiment. It is everyone's right to feel safe from an infectious disease when they go about their daily life.
Talk show hosts are often vaccinated and distancing themselves as well as testing themselves, guests and audiences. Joe Rogan has guests all week, his guests are tested. Joe is not vaccinated, and has had COVID, but not severe. And that was not from a guest on his show.
New data from South Africa indicates, natural immunity from previous infections from the previous variants of COVID increases your chances by 2.34 x as much to get infected by Omicron. They are expecting a lot of reinfections in SA from omicron since the vaccination rate is 24% right now. Previous chances of reinfection from other variants were less likely. This comes from a data set of 2.8M unvaccinated patients.
**No data yet to compare that with the vaccinated population.
Omicron does reinfect after natural infection - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ml9kYeOPeg&t=626s)
@SwampDonkey (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1009) who are you referring to when you say "new cases are not higher than ever" I could not find that anyone said that. and are you saying it is 2.4 x more likely to contract omicron if you had covid before, but less if you never did or just had the vaccine? that does not ring true (make sense) and not enough data to know.
remember there is lots of figures like daily new case rate, and weekly, as well as total cases. in the 2.8 million unvaxed, how many have it that had covid already, and what are we comparing to.
Quote from: Paul_H on December 03, 2021, 11:02:30 AM
Quote from: kantuckid on December 03, 2021, 09:15:33 AM
Regarding King George, The most recent issue of Smithsonian has what I felt was a weird take on old king George. it goes on to great length to make him out as a great guy, generous in all his ways, etc., etc.. Says the American revolution was economically based not at all based on George's treatment of people. So, depending on which form of history you choose, "good George" or "nasty, tyrannical George",
A fascinating subject for another thread if you want to start one. United Empire Loyalists would agree with the Smithsonian but they had to flee after Washington's victory. History is very interesting.
United Empire Loyalists :: United Empire Loyalist Heritage Centre and Park (http://uel.ca/united-empire-loyalists/)
I'm from that mind set that sees a web thread like a real conversation with the twist and turns that occur within them in real life. Kind of like on the job when people find ways to talk about this & that. I'll leave that new thread to someone else but I was trying for a lighthearted, well-intentioned comment at that.
Quote from: Gary_C on December 03, 2021, 11:05:00 AM
I don't normally read nor trust anything in the NY Times and that link confirms that I have exceeded my quota. :)
That makes twice lately someone's trashed the times here. Guess what-I read it and abhor much of what's said there. Our oldest son who has the primary subscription, can add 5 people to his list as subscribers. He's even more conservative than myself, which is hard to believe for some who really know me.
If all you choose to read is expectedly leaned in one direction then you've not apprised yourself of "what the other sides thinking", which is our poriviledge per freedom of speech and so on.
The NYT's inspite of easily holding the hate speech all-time record for anti "you-know-who" comments, it still has great informational jouranlisim aside from the other stuff. I actually find the letters the editor as interesting as the lead articles and some are highly informational too because seriously positioned professionals and savvy real people make those comments. Recipes are neat, book reviews, and much, much more. I could state some of the "stuff" I really get fuzzed about therein but based on it being highly "non-woke" to do so I'll avoid such talk. They have tons of that for sure. The WSJ is more personally refreshing for me and todays editorial by one of my favorite writers, Kimberly Strassel is great. It's called "Bidens Covid Quagmire". Sure not something like the NYT's puts out. Both wander some but have staff unlike most any newspapers left in the USA.
I'd already read that link, feel free to PM me your beef.
Here are the comparisons all graphed. I think some people hope their audience forgets, and it doesn't take long to forget figures. What happens in most circumstances with time data is high days and low days. When you normalize it, you see trends easier.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/Covid-Cases_US-Jan9-2021.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638561500)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/Covid-Cases_US_Nov29-2021.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638561500)
Doc in the second post, they were just looking at unvaccinated over several months before Omicron was discovered I believe and found natural immunity was 71-75% effective in the old variants previous to omicron. They looked at who got reinfected with omicron since Nov1 -27 and found those with natural immunity from the other variants became more likely to get infected by omicron at 2.4 times likelihood. So it goes from less likely from the others, to more likely to be reinfected by Omicron. It goes against the grain, even Dr Campbell is surprised. But that is the data. SA does have world class facilities. But none the less they do not have a study for the vaccinated, the main reason they looked at unvaccinated was to study natural immunity plus the fact that only 24 % is vaccinated. I'm sure vaccination studies are forthcoming. Yes, until we have that data for the vaccinated, there is no need to postulate, we need the data to compare.
We are certainly not seeing sky high infections here in NB all the sudden, not yet, and not as high as the previous wave back in October. Now that can change rapidly, but can't say, when it hasn't taken place.
We do have a change this Saturday happening due to the winter season. Alert level 1.
COVID-19 alert system (https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/corporate/promo/covid-19/alert-system.html)
the new case rate is similar, but the 7 days average is lower as it was not on its way up a long steep slope. not sure what they are comparing to and what number of infections seen that are omicron in the prev. infected.
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) Here's the paper.
South Africa study (PDF) (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.11.21266068v2.full.pdf)
so it looks like there is no predilection for infection, but previous infection does not appear to be as protective for omicron as much as delta and others, by 2.4x. not a big deal especially if it is not as severe, and provides immunity for several of the mutations.
Did you notice how the unvaccinated infections jumped in the last 2 weeks? Almost like the previous spike and this is early. Hopefully being highly infectious reduces it's punch.
if mild enough, it could be better than a vaccine, and everyone will get it. only time will tell.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 03, 2021, 03:47:08 PM
the new case rate is similar, but the 7 days average is lower as it was not on its way up a long steep slope.
Day before cases were ~24,000. That's the nature of data over time, you get a jump up and a serious fall down, but the trends are what is relevant. But what is the trend, upward or downward and how much? So you normalize it. Day to day is sometimes a wide difference, or sometimes close, end of the month will be more telling. Look at how varied the day to day cases are in the last 4 months. Jump way up, fall way down within a day or 2. The point was to show that it's not 'more infections than it's been before'. ;)
Given this discussion posting charts and facts: I just finished reading an article in WSJ about the NFL/Antonio Brown situ wherein his former chef turned him in for a bogus, covid vaccination shot card, two other players, same Tampa team got caught too. The discussion that follows by subscribers is even more interesting for me as it revolves around the checks and balances being used. It mentions the VAERS system which I know zero about in my small world. Mentioned is an anesthesiologist who sent in a bogus report that the flu vaccine had turned him into the Incredible Hulk. The CDC removed that saying it was made up.
Cheating on a covid shot card seems easy to me compared to the fake DL & passport businesses that have been around a long time. With jobs on the line among other "life important things" it seems to me these covid factoids (like seen above) will become less reliable?
"Just the facts" might become "facts as they seem" as these mandates evolve?
Ten cases of the new omicron bug in the USA and growing no doubt-what does the future bring for new lockdowns in the USA. Interesting times await us?
Long time back I read that you could drive up to the right spot in LA, CA and have a bogus DL & Passport for the right price-in minutes or few hours too.
With jobs and such on the line, plus our mobility to pursue travel for many reasons, we will see this "covid cheating" take quantum leaps.
There is certainly some BS floating around. The give away is nothing to back it up.
They put up big alarming headlines to draw you in and find that it's a bunch of nothing. Lots of that on video or streaming sights galore. Used to be a fellow called Fleacey Moss in the tech sector. Was always making big announcements. After a few that never lived up to scrutiny, we would then call him "Fleacey Fluff", like that drier lint you clean every time you dry clothes. :D
A couple actual facts about covid l now know:
1 The vaccine doesn't work
2 The vaccine has long term side effects.
3 Covid is like the drug dealer on the street with a gun trying to rob you. Sometimes he will shoot and miss, sometimes he will shoot and wound you, and sometimes he will get a good shot off and kill you.
4 If covid doesn't kill you it makes you stronger.
5 After covid all food tastes like the white glue you ate in kindergarten
Your results may be different. Ok back to the grandma's gossiping about their soap opera facts.
1) efficacy reduced over time, but effective thus far since most severe cases are unvaccinated. Boosters can increase efficacy. Where's your numbers that shows larger % of vaccinated in hospital. You have none. Zip.
2) possibly very low numbers of cases of severe side effects, no evidence for large numbers of incidents. Some side effects preventable with proper admin of vaccine (aspirate).
3) pretty much, but better chance with vaccine. No 100% guarantee, never was.
4) take your chances either way
5) Not in every case. But some temporary, some longer term. Percentage of the population? Any numbers?
Blanket statements without evidence don't fly. ;)
1. I have an appointment Thursday to get my booster. That is a provable fact. I can back that up with an email from Walgreens.
2. Okay, that's all I've got for facts.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 04, 2021, 06:13:29 PM
1) efficacy reduced over time, but effective thus far since most severe cases are unvaccinated. Boosters can increase efficacy. Where's your numbers that shows larger % of vaccinated in hospital. You have none. Zip.
Blanket statements without evidence don't fly. ;)
This helps visualize SD's points.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10199/e73cb8d48ddfb0a4.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635870193)
WOW 21.
Quote from: 21incher on December 04, 2021, 04:36:45 PM4 If covid doesn't kill you it makes you stronger.
Actually NOT a fact.
Covid CAN cause long lasting damage to internal organs like the lungs, heart and brain. Actual scarring and loss of brain tissue, that show up on before / after scans of patients. Things like that do not make you "stronger".
What is clouding the waters is that the effects aren't consistent, so sorting out what is "Long Covid", and what is some other random malady gets difficult. There is also the "stress" factor affecting peoples health. Not so much the physical infection and subsequent damage, but the worry and stress (about your own or loved ones health) can have effects. We know long term stress can be a factor in heart disease, and PTSD is a real thing as well. It's not "all in your mind" if there are actual physical symptoms caused by this.
Now if you want to do some light reading, here is the NZ AEFI (Adverse Effects Following Immunisation) summary from last month.
Safety Report #36 ? 6 November 2021 (https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-36.asp)
Basically thousands of reports of "minor" side effects. some more serious, and ONE death that can be linked to the vaccine. Interesting is the reported deaths (in the 3 weeks after vaccination) are significantly less than might be expected (by about 50%). Suggested reason is that Drs aren't recommending vaccination for "very frail" patients, that are most likely to die with or without the vaccine. If you have cancer and 3 months to live, the risk / benefit isn't really there. So a lot of "expected" deaths didn't get vaccinated in their final weeks.
So far the heart inflammation appears to be the only side effect that's rising above the "background noise", and that's only a 50% increase above the normal risk. If NZ normally sees ~100 cases a year, we might see ~150 this year? So even if you suffer that side effect, you can't be sure it was actually the vaccine 2/3 chance you were just going to get it anyway. And chances of dying from it appear to be 1 in 7 million doses, from local real world numbers.
The VAERS / AEFI systems are inherently not 100% accurate, but they look at the overall trends, and compare that to the "expected" numbers. So far the heart inflammation is the only thing that has stood out from the crowd. Sure people have had heart attacks or a stroke a week after getting the vaccine, and that raises questions. But when they analyse the whole picture, it's to be expected that 100-150 people are expected to suffer that event without the vaccine. Sucks if you are in that ~100, but statistically it was going to happen to someone.
P.S. The full story of the Incredible Hulk VAERS report tells how the guy that reported it was actually contacted with some "follow up questions", as any report of serious side effects should be. When asked if he had really turned into the Hulk he had to admit he hadn't, and was just testing if anyone actually read the reports. After that it was deleted by mutual agreement.
Canada data up to Nov 13 (there is a 3 week delay in sequencing tests). Vaccination is not responsible for all the protection. But how could you even measure the other factors? Masking, distancing, and washing are effective, but how could you collect that data other than just observation and assumption. Vaccination is a tangible marker, you either are or you're not, no grey area. Although flawed it may well be, since it's not the total picture. 76% of the population is fully vaccinated, yet 24% is unvaccinated and have most the infections, hospitalizations and deaths. It can't get any easier to demonstrate that vaccination works (along with measures mentioned above).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/Canada_COVID_Nov13.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638700749)
source: COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca (https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html)
Good job Ianab!
Medical statistics are tough for we public to sort out, in terms of what's useful to our own person or persons. Just this week I read an article from a web media source quoting statistics from an actual medical study of people over age 75, who use over the counter Prilosec/ Omeprazole (in my case), I call it Larry the Cable Guy pill :D- for heartburn acid reflux control. Said in this large study that mostly males who used the drug were showing increased signs of dementia.
I could fester up about those facts or stay in acid control mode and hope for the best. My last years GI scopes showed zero issues, not even a polyp at my age is nice indeed.
Reality tells me that I take 10mg whereas the study was towards the OTC version which is 20mg, but in my case I take it daily, not a two week limited dosage.
Reality also tells me that my mind "seems" OK-that's up for grabs by some's opinion but not mine. :D
Thus, just because CNN says a few people's heart had issues, or myriad other stuff, I'll not fret when I vaccinate, and I didn't and I'm here to tell my side of things, which many my age are not. Fact-Thousands of seniors are now in LALA land.
Anecdotal factoids are not going to determine my life.
CNN ::) All media outlets have their clowns though...
I do value honest, informed medical professionals opinions. My favorite, FWIW, is that girl doc from AR who's as sweet as can be and stays on track with her realities from her patients in her own practice. Certainly not a worldly opinion but not political either. Plus she's damned good looking, so I take in every word she says... 8)
Quote from: Ianab on December 04, 2021, 10:14:43 PM
Quote from: 21incher on December 04, 2021, 04:36:45 PM4 If covid doesn't kill you it makes you stronger.
Actually NOT a fact.
Covid CAN cause long lasting damage to internal organs like the lungs, heart and brain. Actual scarring and loss of brain tissue, that show up on before / after scans of patients. Things like that do not make you "stronger".
What is clouding the waters is that the effects aren't consistent, so sorting out what is "Long Covid", and what is some other random malady gets difficult. There is also the "stress" factor affecting peoples health. Not so much the physical infection and subsequent damage, but the worry and stress (about your own or loved ones health) can have effects. We know long term stress can be a factor in heart disease, and PTSD is a real thing as well. It's not "all in your mind" if there are actual physical symptoms caused by this.
Now if you want to do some light reading, here is the NZ AEFI (Adverse Effects Following Immunisation) summary from last month.
Safety Report #36 ? 6 November 2021 (https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-36.asp)
Basically thousands of reports of "minor" side effects. some more serious, and ONE death that can be linked to the vaccine. Interesting is the reported deaths (in the 3 weeks after vaccination) are significantly less than might be expected (by about 50%). Suggested reason is that Drs aren't recommending vaccination for "very frail" patients, that are most likely to die with or without the vaccine. If you have cancer and 3 months to live, the risk / benefit isn't really there. So a lot of "expected" deaths didn't get vaccinated in their final weeks.
So far the heart inflammation appears to be the only side effect that's rising above the "background noise", and that's only a 50% increase above the normal risk. If NZ normally sees ~100 cases a year, we might see ~150 this year? So even if you suffer that side effect, you can't be sure it was actually the vaccine 2/3 chance you were just going to get it anyway. And chances of dying from it appear to be 1 in 7 million doses, from local real world numbers.
The VAERS / AEFI systems are inherently not 100% accurate, but they look at the overall trends, and compare that to the "expected" numbers. So far the heart inflammation is the only thing that has stood out from the crowd. Sure people have had heart attacks or a stroke a week after getting the vaccine, and that raises questions. But when they analyse the whole picture, it's to be expected that 100-150 people are expected to suffer that event without the vaccine. Sucks if you are in that ~100, but statistically it was going to happen to someone.
So apply your logic to the covid19, If those over 75 contracted the virus and died were they not going to die anyways? They already had other cormabidities, so they were going to die at some time. Sucks to be them. 250+ million people have contracted the virus and survived, 5 million have not survived the virus. How many of the 5M had other cormabidities? 80% is the number I read. They have reached the end of their life span. The average age for us humans is in the 80's now. So now we have 1M died from the virus and yes there are long term problems from the virus. Yet millions and millions have died from the lock down effects. Starvation, Suicide, Drug overdoses, Mental health is at an all time high.
I do not totally disagree with your comments but has to be in context. it is great to throw number as though it was only the folks at the end of life we lost. My wife lost a friend colleague 65 y/o pharmacist. He hosted the Christmas party the year prior to covid and has grandchildren. He would have retired, but they needed him at work. 2 weeks on a vent and dead. pre-vaccine. Even 80 years olds often want to live another day, if able. The drugs, violence and mental health problems have as much to do with the handling and politics of the virus, not that virus itself. If you do not want to get the vaccine, OK. But if you are arguing that the world would be better off or even the same without it, I think you are wrong. It was stated it does not work. Well, it does not prevent all disease and has some side effects. But it shows reduced severity and reduced death. Many people have more money now than pre covid, as the government is handing it out, lots of jobs but people choosing not to work. make more money staying home. Many of my Doc friends talk about PTSD. people have huge expectations and not all realistic. had a recent patient, 400 pounds, older than me, professional driver. Been sick a week and was back in town so wanted to get checked out. almost teary eyed telling me he can barely breath. Dx covid, x-ray looking bad already. have to give the antibody in less than 10 days from onset. to send him as OP means two days sicker, and in 3 days he no longer qualifies. We are swamped seeing 100 patients a day over our usual 65. We decided it was best to keep him to give the monoclonal. takes 20 minutes infused, and 1 hour observation. I went to d/c and he is *pithed because he had been there so long. I guess he was doing us a favor. Seatbelts do not save every person in a car crash; shall we toss all those out too.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 05, 2021, 10:14:06 AMMany people have more money now than pre covid, as the government is handing it out,
And it's purchasing power has greatly decreased as a result. So one actually has less wealth.
yes and if you go back to work and everyone else rides on the wagon, then you have even less wealth, if you then make less money and things cost more. the shut downs and politics have driven up supply issues and prices.
SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination "Official" Messaging - Then and Now on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/652449457)
Dr Fauci speaks about the benefits of vaccines. I have to admit I missed it the first time. Maybe there is hope but I'm confuses about Bill Gates role in all of this. He isn't a doctor or a scientist is he?
Quote from: kantuckid on December 05, 2021, 09:13:26 AM
Medical statistics are tough for we public to sort out, in terms of what's useful to our own person or persons. Just this week I read an article from a web media source quoting statistics from an actual medical study of people over age 75, who use over the counter Prilosec/ Omeprazole (in my case), I call it Larry the Cable Guy pill :D- for heartburn acid reflux control. Said in this large study that mostly males who used the drug were showing increased signs of dementia.
I could fester up about those facts or stay in acid control mode and hope for the best. My last years GI scopes showed zero issues, not even a polyp at my age is nice indeed.
Reality tells me that I take 10mg whereas the study was towards the OTC version which is 20mg, but in my case I take it daily, not a two week limited dosage.
Reality also tells me that my mind "seems" OK-that's up for grabs by some's opinion but not mine. :D
I am very familiar with that issue over those "acid reflux" pills as my wife was sort of addicted to them for many years and about five years ago was diagnosed with dementia and now Alzheimer's. My wife was taking Nexium and on the day her doctor did the first cognitive test that she scored low on, the doctor told me that some people believe that taking those acid reflux pills cause dementia but that is not true. The doctor went on to say is that a large study had found that if you take acid reflux pills you have about a 38% higher chance of developing dementia than those who do not take the pills. So I had my son look up the study and indeed he found it was true there is no direct link to the acid reflux pills but indeed you would have a significantly higher risk of dementia if you took the pills.
That was enough for me and I weaned her off the Nexium and took the pills away from her, but it was too late. Once you start down that path there is no turning back. Looking back my wife has no other risk factors for dementia either in genetics or family history. However, her neurologist told us that almost everyone he sees with some form of dementia says the same thing.
So if you want my advice, I would find another way to reduce your acid reflux issues. For my wife it was not laying down on the couch and napping after meals. Stay upright for some time after meals. Just stay off the acid reflux pills.
Quote from: Paul_H on December 05, 2021, 12:01:03 PM
SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination "Official" Messaging - Then and Now on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/652449457)
Dr Fauci speaks about the benefits of vaccines. I have to admit I missed it the first time. Maybe there is hope but I'm confuses about Bill Gates role in all of this. He isn't a doctor or a scientist is he?
Bill Gates has donated $250 million towards research into Covid treatments. So I guess he's paying for a lot of scientists and Drs. Anyway, that's his role in all of this.
Ah, a donation.
I brought Bill Gates into the discussion. While I do appreciate that he has donated hundreds of millions to covid research, and billions to other charitable purposes, that wasn't the point.
I was trying to get across where we get our information and analysis from matters. Mr. Gates has plenty to say about covid, how we should prepare for the next pandemic and has quite of bit of influence at the World Health Organization due to the amount of money he donates to it.
The point was he is not a doctor or scientist, he is a software guy. If my computer is not working Bill is the man. If my Accuset is giving me trouble woodmizers help is much appreciated. On health issues I will take Doc Henderson's and Doctor B's advice and analysis.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am not one that buys into the government trying to kill us off with a evil vaccine. It would be too indiscriminate a killer and the government is relying on those of us working and paying taxes to continue doing so.
Didn't he do something with vaccines in India and Africa before all of this? Didn't work out the way he planned or something?
Only thing I heard about his business in Africa, was trying to make medicine affordable, like for HIV where it is in millions of victims. I'm no fan of the guy, but he gets credit where it is due in my book. His ex wife has dished out millions as well, and to the little people, not just to the controllers of information. Not all doctors are great orators, and not everyone with money is just another Henry Ford. How many foresters are on the TV telling the state of things these days on the markets and the state of management? Only fellow up here, is Jim Irving and Mary Keith and neither are foresters. No forester with government heard from in at least 60 years, when my grandmother's cousin was chief forester. The world is full of people wanting to suppress truth and cook up non sense. Always will be.
Stephen 1
Interesting thoughts in your post. I would suggest that just because a person is over 75 years old and has a cardiac condition does not equate to a miserable, burdensome life that is about to end. As a culture, I don't believe that we have taken the more fatalistic view that I interpret from your post. There are plenty of people here on the Forum that fall into the high risk category for mortality as a result of a Covid-19 infection, and I don't believe that they consider themselves as having played out the string quite yet.
I wholeheartedly agree that mental illness, depression, isolation, economic hardship, and overdoses have all increased markedly since Covid began. And there are studies that have examined excess deaths that have occurred during Covid that are not directly related to Covid infections. Whether or not those deaths are from patients not seeking care for other medical issues has not been fully delineated. But I would ask, do you have a reference documenting your comment...
" Yet millions and millions have died from the lock down effects."
I cannot find statistics that support such a high number of lockdown, but non-Covid infection caused, mortalities. I am positive that there are certainly deaths in such a category, but I would question whether it is millions and millions. BTW, do not interpret my question as me being in support of lockdowns. I am not.
Doctorb, I strongly suggest you read the RFK jr. book titled The Real Anthony Fauci (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Real-Anthony-Fauci/Robert-F-Kennedy/Children-s-Health-Defense/9781510766808) and you may find your answer to your question. I read the sample provided by Amazon last night and ordered my copy but today they are only offering a Kindle version of the book.
I already knew many of the facts I read about in the limited sample and can say it's eye opening (and disgusting). I had trouble sleeping last night just thinking about the history of this pandemic.
I have not read the book. is it possible to predict his opinion without reading it?
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_Jr.)
Doc, I have not been a fan of RFK jr. either but I cannot dismiss the facts he related in the limited sample of the beginning of the book. I had previous knowledge of many of the facts he related in that first part of the book and had limited information on who was behind the events. Now it all comes together.
It's always better to know all opinions out there even if you don't agree with the author rather than to ignore them. The publisher also offers a challenge in that the book is a living document in that if anyone knows contrary information, they are willing to listen and update the book.
Gary-
I certainly am aware of the criticisms levied at Dr. Fauci. As a reader, I tend to stay away from books that are published in the middle of a battle, like all the "tell-all" books that have been published over the last 10 years. My opinion is that they are published mostly to take advantage of the highly emotional divides in our politics. Such books would be much different publications, if written at all, 10 years from now. They would have at their disposal many more diverse sources, and would be written more for history's interest, not directed toward the current political climate. As an aside, I never even feigned interest in any of the bookshelf full of such books published about Obama or Trump. Never even thought of opening a cover.
I enjoy a good history, a good historical novel, or fiction. Maybe Kennedy's book will fall into one of those categories some day, and I will read it. But, for my current reading time, I like to indulge in something less contemporary. I am sure doc h will tell you that, when you are studying medicine, by the time information reaches you in a text book, it's already out of date. ;D That's why we read journals because the information continually changes.
Thanks for the suggestion. Keep them coming, as you know I value your opinion.
Doctorb, I understand your aversion to tell all books and further recognize there are limits to what one person can do, but is it acceptable to see ten years later that bad things were happening and I did not speak up and say enough?
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
If we are going to do book recommendations Thinking, Fast and Slow Daniel Kahneman Nobel Prize Economics 2002 I highly recommend. I need to go back and read it again, it's that good. that will take me some time, I read slow, because my lips get tired quickly.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 05, 2021, 05:46:53 AM
Canada data up to Nov 13 (there is a 3 week delay in sequencing tests). Vaccination is not responsible for all the protection. But how could you even measure the other factors? Masking, distancing, and washing are effective, but how could you collect that data other than just observation and assumption. Vaccination is a tangible marker, you either are or you're not, no grey area. Although flawed it may well be, since it's not the total picture. 76% of the population is fully vaccinated, yet 24% is unvaccinated and have most the infections, hospitalizations and deaths. It can't get any easier to demonstrate that vaccination works (along with measures mentioned above).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/Canada_COVID_Nov13.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638700749)
source: COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca (https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html)
The statistics SwampDonkey posted do not lie; vaccinations work. Reality and facts don't care about your feelings or political leaning.
Gary-
Let's just say that the fog of war often causes the authors of such books, who write from an "I am in the trenches" or an "Only I have all the real answers" perspective, either don't have the whole story, can't see the whole story (bias), or can't tell the entire tale in an unbalanced manner. Kennedy is well-known as a vaccine denyer/attacker, even well before Covid. I mean, c'mon...you won't read the New York Times! ;) :D So I think it's OK if I miss JFK Jr.'s book. Meant all in good fun!
My point is long before the book, he is listed as Left leaning antivax advocate. Let me know if he changed his opinion. but I have trouble trusting a comment coming from someone who made their mind up about the covid vaccine 20 years ago. sorry. and as you can see from my profile, i love and live by that EB quote.
Quote from: Ianab on December 04, 2021, 10:14:43 PM
Quote from: 21incher on December 04, 2021, 04:36:45 PM4 If covid doesn't kill you it makes you stronger.
The VAERS / AEFI systems are inherently not 100% accurate, but they look at the overall trends, and compare that to the "expected" numbers. So far the heart inflammation is the only thing that has stood out from the crowd. Sure people have had heart attacks or a stroke a week after getting the vaccine, and that raises questions. But when they analyse the whole picture, it's to be expected that 100-150 people are expected to suffer that event without the vaccine. Sucks if you are in that ~100, but statistically it was going to happen to someone.
Doc's , I should have stuck to facts, but the comment sucks if you are in that 100, Really struck me hard. I do not think anyone should suffer or die. But that goes into the politics and I need to stay away from that here. Protect the vunerable and let the economy run.
It is all good @Stephen1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=3648)
Quote from: Stephen1 on December 06, 2021, 10:01:44 PMProtect the vulnerable and let the economy run.
While that sounds good, in practice how do you actually protect the vulnerable? They account for maybe 30% of the population, once you take age / weight / diabetes / cancer / high blood pressure etc into account. Sorry kids, you can't see Gran for the next couple of years? The best way to keep the economy running is to get rid of the dang virus, so people can travel / eat out / attend events without worrying about getting sick, or bringing the virus home to infect one of those vulnerable folks we are trying to protect.
Here's a report from "on the ground" in Fiji. Being an Island like NZ they had largely dodged the bullet, and only had 4 deaths up until the Delta outbreak. But they got hit hard by that and are now at nearly 700 dead because it wasn't practical for them to lock down like NZ did at the start of the Delta outbreak. They don't have a lot of $$, so folks had to keep going to work, and of course the virus spreads. Instead they went all in with vaccinations, and now have over 90% of eligible folks vaccinated. New cases are now down to single figures daily, and life gets back to normal. The vulnerable are now pretty well protected as the vaccine is working well enough across the whole population, and they can safely get their economy going again.
Covid-19: Kiwi in Fiji says island nation is 'living proof' vaccination works | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300472201/covid19-kiwi-in-fiji-says-island-nation-is-living-proof-vaccination-works)
That is basically the "end game" for the vaccination program. It would be great if the vaccine was more effective as we could squash the numbers with a lower % vaccinated. But it is what it is. It's still the best tool we have to both protect the vulnerable, AND allow the economy to get back to normal(ish).
It's looking like omicron makes you less sick so far. But most of the harm right now is still Delta. We can all hope at least that the omicron is less harmful, takes over and becomes dominant and we get immunity naturally and or vaccine induced. 8)
Think positive. :)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 07, 2021, 03:28:33 AM
It's looking like omicron makes you less sick so far. But most of the harm right now is still Delta. We can all hope at least that the omicron is less harmful, takes over and becomes dominant and we get immunity naturally and or vaccine induced. 8)
Think positive. :)
It does appear the Omicron seem to be mild in vaccinated (and I assume recovered infections) So yes, that's best case scenario where a milder version spreads, boosts peoples immunity without killing too many.
I don't think anyone knows exactly how it affect not vaccinated / not previously infected yet. Thinking positive it won't be as dangerous as Delta
There is some non vaccinated data trickling in in SA, not enough to make any claims yet. But not hearing of too much trouble yet, and SA is only 25% vaccinated, not 75%. ;)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 07, 2021, 04:52:50 AM
There is some non vaccinated data trickling in in SA, not enough to make any claims yet. But not hearing of too much trouble yet, and SA is only 25% vaccinated, not 75%. ;)
That would be a "best case" scenario. More infectious, but less dangerous.
Here's hoping.
Considering we are now 2 years into the pandemic, it's about time we got a lucky break :-\
Quote from: Stephen1 on December 05, 2021, 09:47:41 AM
Quote from: Ianab on December 04, 2021, 10:14:43 PM
Quote from: 21incher on December 04, 2021, 04:36:45 PM4 If covid doesn't kill you it makes you stronger.
Actually NOT a fact.
Covid CAN cause long lasting damage to internal organs like the lungs, heart and brain. Actual scarring and loss of brain tissue, that show up on before / after scans of patients. Things like that do not make you "stronger".
What is clouding the waters is that the effects aren't consistent, so sorting out what is "Long Covid", and what is some other random malady gets difficult. There is also the "stress" factor affecting peoples health. Not so much the physical infection and subsequent damage, but the worry and stress (about your own or loved ones health) can have effects. We know long term stress can be a factor in heart disease, and PTSD is a real thing as well. It's not "all in your mind" if there are actual physical symptoms caused by this.
Now if you want to do some light reading, here is the NZ AEFI (Adverse Effects Following Immunisation) summary from last month.
Safety Report #36 ? 6 November 2021 (https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-36.asp)
Basically thousands of reports of "minor" side effects. some more serious, and ONE death that can be linked to the vaccine. Interesting is the reported deaths (in the 3 weeks after vaccination) are significantly less than might be expected (by about 50%). Suggested reason is that Drs aren't recommending vaccination for "very frail" patients, that are most likely to die with or without the vaccine. If you have cancer and 3 months to live, the risk / benefit isn't really there. So a lot of "expected" deaths didn't get vaccinated in their final weeks.
So far the heart inflammation appears to be the only side effect that's rising above the "background noise", and that's only a 50% increase above the normal risk. If NZ normally sees ~100 cases a year, we might see ~150 this year? So even if you suffer that side effect, you can't be sure it was actually the vaccine 2/3 chance you were just going to get it anyway. And chances of dying from it appear to be 1 in 7 million doses, from local real world numbers.
The VAERS / AEFI systems are inherently not 100% accurate, but they look at the overall trends, and compare that to the "expected" numbers. So far the heart inflammation is the only thing that has stood out from the crowd. Sure people have had heart attacks or a stroke a week after getting the vaccine, and that raises questions. But when they analyse the whole picture, it's to be expected that 100-150 people are expected to suffer that event without the vaccine. Sucks if you are in that ~100, but statistically it was going to happen to someone.
So apply your logic to the covid19, If those over 75 contracted the virus and died were they not going to die anyways? They already had other cormabidities, so they were going to die at some time. Sucks to be them. 250+ million people have contracted the virus and survived, 5 million have not survived the virus. How many of the 5M had other cormabidities? 80% is the number I read. They have reached the end of their life span. The average age for us humans is in the 80's now. So now we have 1M died from the virus and yes there are long term problems from the virus. Yet millions and millions have died from the lock down effects. Starvation, Suicide, Drug overdoses, Mental health is at an all time high.
Applying your logic directly to myself, I'll offer you that while I'm sure many have suffered from mandates forcing them not to have contact with friends and family or inability to pursue their lifestyles, etc., etc... In my case and my wifes too, we are very self-contained people, so other than not seeing GK's as much and no world travels, we've been doing our thing everyday. Between my shop and our woods & farm life goes on unless I'm dead from covid, of course, so we got the shots because we believe the numbers, comorbidities yes, but no covid here, knock on wood.
I have coronary heart disease but what I don't have is covid-19. Seems simple enough to me?
The two main places in my life I worry much about covid-19 (or the Russians ;D or the Chinese ;D or the terrorists ;D) is here in this thread and when I read the news and watch the news- otherwise I do my thing.
So far, age and other crap aside, it doesn't suck to be me. 8)
Quote from: Paul_H on December 05, 2021, 07:33:22 PM
Ah, a donation.
Be it Bill or the guvment they take our money and then dole it back to us as if it were a gift to humanity. Kind of like the banks and insurance companies who "donate to all those great causes" :D Guess where that money comes from?
Quote from: doctorb on December 06, 2021, 05:42:51 PM
Gary-
Let's just say that the fog of war often causes the authors of such books, who write from an "I am in the trenches" or an "Only I have all the real answers" perspective, either don't have the whole story, can't see the whole story (bias), or can't tell the entire tale in an unbalanced manner. Kennedy is well-known as a vaccine denyer/attacker, even well before Covid. I mean, c'mon...you won't read the New York Times! ;) :D So I think it's OK if I miss JFK Jr.'s book. Meant all in good fun!
"Just for arguments sake", I'll throw out there have been some rather large exceptions to your point-Ernie Pyle's book written during WWII is an exception as are some others that gathered information in the heat of the moment. He became the voice of the American soldier as it were and got a Pulitzer prize for his work. One of the better Pulitzer's IMO. Some more recently suck if reality matters.
But, I agree with your point, overall. ;D
Quote from: Ianab on December 07, 2021, 01:12:27 AM
Quote from: Stephen1 on December 06, 2021, 10:01:44 PMProtect the vulnerable and let the economy run.
While that sounds good, in practice how do you actually protect the vulnerable? They account for maybe 30% of the population, once you take age / weight / diabetes / cancer / high blood pressure etc into account. Sorry kids, you can't see Gran for the next couple of years? The best way to keep the economy running is to get rid of the dang virus, so people can travel / eat out / attend events without worrying about getting sick, or bringing the virus home to infect one of those vulnerable folks we are trying to protect.
Here's a report from "on the ground" in Fiji. Being an Island like NZ they had largely dodged the bullet, and only had 4 deaths up until the Delta outbreak. But they got hit hard by that and are now at nearly 700 dead because it wasn't practical for them to lock down like NZ did at the start of the Delta outbreak. They don't have a lot of $$, so folks had to keep going to work, and of course the virus spreads. Instead they went all in with vaccinations, and now have over 90% of eligible folks vaccinated. New cases are now down to single figures daily, and life gets back to normal. The vulnerable are now pretty well protected as the vaccine is working well enough across the whole population, and they can safely get their economy going again.
Covid-19: Kiwi in Fiji says island nation is 'living proof' vaccination works | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300472201/covid19-kiwi-in-fiji-says-island-nation-is-living-proof-vaccination-works)
That is basically the "end game" for the vaccination program. It would be great if the vaccine was more effective as we could squash the numbers with a lower % vaccinated. But it is what it is. It's still the best tool we have to both protect the vulnerable, AND allow the economy to get back to normal(ish).
Not much in the way of facts, just a news article.
Very simple for a small population. Isolated Island.
How do you handle the rest of the world?
How do you Vaccinate the entire world at 90% in a timely manner? Impossible.
Put more effort into early treatments, more effort into World information hotlines for DR and Public Health about Early Treatments , so they know whats working whats not by different Dr and scientists around the country and the world. After almost 2 years of covid we should have early treatments by now.
The isolated Island thing was a big factor in controlling the original virus outbreak. Australia / NZ / Singapore were all able to do that, and mostly avoid the early waves of infection. But once the Delta variant got loose in the local populations, it's proven impossible to control. Border controls are then almost irrelevant, because it's spreading person to person locally. One extra case arriving makes little difference compared to the 1,000 local cases.
Fiji has a population of over 1 million, so it's not some tiny semi-deserted Island. Once the Delta got established in the local population, they were seeing over 1,000 new cases a day, which was a huge problem with limited medical facilities. That's a fact. Closing off all travel at that point would make zero difference. Yet now they are under 10 cases a day, and you can't claim that's because everyone's now been infected and are naturally immune. They have only recorded 58,000 cases in a population of 1 million (~5%).
Here is the actual numbers for Fiji over the whole outbreak. Basically nothing before Delta came along, that's'down to the remote Island advantage. Then BAM, they got hit hard by the Delta virus. Now cases are back to almost zero. What changed? Only factor that has changed is the vaccine.
Fiji COVID: 52,562 Cases and 697 Deaths - Worldometer (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/fiji/)
I agree that we also need better treatments, but viral diseases have always been difficult to treat. Even the new drugs specifically designed to treat Covid are only partially effective. It's good that Drs now have some useful treatments they can use, but they aren't like antibiotics that are 99% effective against bacteria. Vaccination to prevent the disease has always been more successful (Polio / Smallpox etc).
Can we vaccinate everyone in the world? Actually there is no reason we can't. The vaccines are now in plentiful supply, and there is no reason for any developed country not to be over 90% vaccinated. A lot of developing countries already are, because they realise they have limited medical systems. Keeping people out of hospital with a simple is simply more efficient than trying to treat thousands of sick.
Any ideas how the Omicron got into these countries like Australia and others that are locked down and very militant on allowing only vaccinated to travel?
Another question is how do they determine it is all Omicron now and not the original or the other variants? Do old variants fade into obscurity like child actors or do they still pop up?
And how did Omicron budge ahead of Xi?
Delta is the main concern currently.
I heard some numbers on the way home the other day. Rounding them off, over 160 million Americans have been vaccinated, under 1600 have died from the vaccine, 160,000 unvaccinated Americans have died since July. Those are unnecessary deaths. Demographically, they run around 4:1 Republican and more rural than pre vaccine.
Natural immunity has proven to be less than good, possibly less than no good against the new variant .
Thank goodness it's mild because they figure the vaccine won't be effective either
Point well made, Kantuckid.
Quote from: Paul_H on December 07, 2021, 04:01:53 PM
Any ideas how the Omicron got into these countries like Australia and others that are locked down and very militant on allowing only vaccinated to travel?
Another question is how do they determine it is all Omicron now and not the original or the other variants? Do old variants fade into obscurity like child actors or do they still pop up?
And how did Omicron budge ahead of Xi?
Missed it in testing, may not have had enough incubation time before the traveller was tested before boarding a flight. I know the first two cases in Ottawa were found when tested on arrival.
They do gene sequencing to determine which variant. The more of one variant that shows up in the test tells them which is more prevalent.
Depends on how competitive they are.
Omicron is probably more infectious/transmissible. A variant becomes a concern when it exhibits features of increased infectivity and/or transmissibility.
Variants (https://nccid.ca/covid-19-variants/)
But still, you have to be fully vaccinated in order to travel in or out of the countries so there should be ample time for the protection and prevention?
Talking about incubation time of the infections, not vaccine. Vaccinated can get COVID and spread it, even if the % of cases is low, and testing over all has proved cases are much lower in vaccinated. Remember, no vaccine for COVID offers 100% protection. Most cases in vaccinated are mild.
I remember :)
What I'm wondering about is the science behind the lockdowns which I'm sure have many redundancies built in to prevent these outbreaks by completely restricting or preventing altogether the movement of unvaccinated citizens and allowing the limited movements of the fully vaccinated. I can see if there was a variant appearing here and there if a unvaccinated person slipped through the cracks but this has happened worldwide several times now.
What is going on?
I'm shocked people are ignoring the cardiovascular system problems many are having around the world. They don't want us to know what is in it and we should be protected from human experimentation. Something is seriously wrong and their actions are crimes against humanity. This is criminal.
Not everyone is ignoring the cardiovascular problems going around. There's a few of us myself included that have been real close to very healthy people that suddenly suffered severe cardiovascular issues including death. Those people that have seen this type of thing unfold repeatedly are getting shushed, shunned and accused of wearing tinfoil hats but certainly aren't ignoring it.
Paul -
I tend to agree. I do not see the science that supports lockdowns, as the virus (pick your variant) has already spread well before they are instituted. This is such a mess. I think it's pretty clear that lockdowns, in certain geographic and cultural circumstances, can dampen and sometimes significantly slow the spread. But the timing and conditions and the citizens must be perfect, or close to it. With global travel being what it is, I don't see untargeted lockdowns as the answer.
Those citizens, whom have done nothing wrong, committed no crime, then become subjects.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 06, 2021, 05:45:20 PM
My point is long before the book, he is listed as Left leaning antivax advocate. Let me know if he changed his opinion. but I have trouble trusting a comment coming from someone who made their mind up about the covid vaccine 20 years ago. sorry. and as you can see from my profile, i love and live by that EB quote.
This book review just came to my attention. To respond to your request along with the doubts of doctorb, please consider the attached link. Book Review: The Real Anthony Fauci by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/12/book-review-the-real-anthony-fauci-by-robert-f-kennedy-jr/)
From what little of what I've seen of the book, there is little antivax rhetoric but a whole bunch of discussion and quotes from some very well respected doctors in the front line of the fight against this pandemic over the almost total lack of guidance for early treatments for infected patients. Here is some of what's in the book review though I strongly urge you to read the entire review.
Never in a million years would I have thought to be on the same side of an issue as an environmental lawyer and Democratic icon, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.But after two years of America living under the biotech dictatorship of Dr. Anthony Fauci [Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID)]...here we are.I didn't anticipate writing a review for Kennedy's latest book, The Real Anthony Fauci (https://www.amazon.com/Real-Anthony-Fauci-Democracy-Childrens-ebook/dp/B08X5YWRRP/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2BV9WP5EXTJGX&keywords=the+real+anthony+fauci+robert+kennedy&qid=1638578517&sprefix=the+re%2Caps%2C421&sr=8-1), either. However, when the publisher appeared on Tucker Carlson to describe how the publishing community was throttling publicity for this book, I sensed that the media was once again assuming the role of Fauci's guardian. So, I find myself reviewing a book the New York Times won't review....one more time.Let me start by saying that Kennedy's book is exceedingly well written, especially on this highly scientific topic. He has managed to walk the fine line of explaining technical issues without dumbing it down to triviality. And his assessment of Fauci's work as NIAID director is detailed, gripping and quite disturbing.The book is incredibly well-referenced, with quotes from Nobel Laureate-winning scientists, citations to a plethora of scientific studies, and references to government reports that have been suppressed. I have read few books that have affected me as much as The Real Anthony Fauci. My only quibbles with it are some tedious insults to President Donald Trump and distracting homages to green activist causes. And it is a bit hard to take glowing references to Senator Ted Kennedy (but that's family, so I will let that slide). However, those passages are few, and the writing is otherwise solidHere is what one of the commenters had to say.
Everyone needs to read this book to get a better understanding of the forces that are distorting our lives. Whatever you think of RFK jr, you need to hear what he has to say about Fauci and the corruption of science and medicine.
Every vaccine has had some risk. With the small pox vaccine there have been ischemic cardiac events (reduces the heart muscle's ability to pump blood). No one remembers back in the 70's it was a heated debate over needing a small pox vaccine shot since there was no cases of small pox. In fact the WHO offered anyone $1000 reward to report a single case anywhere. No one collected. We are still vaccinating for small pox in preschoolers.
The polio vaccine has been associated with cases of peripheral nerve demyelinating disorder, but no causation shown since many cases had multiple vaccinations. Thrombocytopenia has been associated with the polio vaccine, a decrease in the number Of platelets that are involved in blood clotting. SID in infants was reported as well. No clinical trials conducted. These were rare events without enough evidence to find causation.
You could go on and on looking at vaccine side effects for many vaccines. You can find studies on them all. Adverse effects happen, are rare, while the vaccine improves your odds over the disease. There will likely be another vaccine for another bug down the line and we'll be vilifying it to. Personally, I have not seen anyone suffering from the current vaccines. I've got family in their 90's, and have only seen one death. He had serious health problems for years and contacted COVID in a senior's home in Massachusetts. I've got family who are teachers, nurses and those working with folks in crisis. They've all got the shot, even my 96 year old cousin in a nursing home, who will outlive us all. :D
I'm no party to making a vaccine a villain. I've seen this many times, drumming up fear and beating the drums. Some people have short memories. ;D
Criminal? Matter of perspective.
Does the vaccine have some side effects? Sure it does, it's on the CDC website.
Are unvaccinated people taking up hospital beds and using medical resources for weeks at a time denying those beds to folks who have uncovid related health issues. There are, the statistics don't lie.
I guess it's all in ones opinion what constitutes a crime against humanity.
There's multiple crimes against humanity that have taken place.
Gain of function research that lead to this starting in the first place.
Absolutely zero accountability or repercussions for those involved in it.
Just a couple that sure seem to be facts.
Regarding the RFK Jr book, what I find alarming is the belief that you need to agree with an author's lifestyle and political stance in order to simply listen to another person's thoughts and how they formed their opinions. Being left or right isn't contagious.
Quote from: Ricker on December 08, 2021, 06:40:32 AM
Criminal? Matter of perspective.
Does the vaccine have some side effects? Sure it does, it's on the CDC website.
Are unvaccinated people taking up hospital beds and using medical resources for weeks at a time denying those beds to folks who have uncovid related health issues. There are, the statistics don't lie.
I guess it's all in ones opinion what constitutes a crime against humanity.
If you refuse the vaccine but get sick for whatever reason (covid or non-covid related), can you still trust the judgement of the same doctors who are pushing for you to get the vaccine?
Quote from: melezefarmer on December 08, 2021, 08:01:48 AM
Quote from: Ricker on December 08, 2021, 06:40:32 AM
Criminal? Matter of perspective.
Does the vaccine have some side effects? Sure it does, it's on the CDC website.
Are unvaccinated people taking up hospital beds and using medical resources for weeks at a time denying those beds to folks who have uncovid related health issues. There are, the statistics don't lie.
I guess it's all in ones opinion what constitutes a crime against humanity.
If you refuse the vaccine but get sick for whatever reason (covid or non-covid related), can you still trust the judgement of the same doctors who are pushing for you to get the vaccine?
Always a matter of perspective. Are there vaccinated people with Covid, in the hospital taking up medical resources and beds? Yes.
I am my own advocate for my own health. A DR has his opinion and the Dr down the road has his opinion, that is why for serious health problems a second and 3rd opinion are reccomended. That is why Dr.'s practise. As they get older and more experienced they have different thoughts on how to deal with different problems.
I am not to sure I trust the judgement of a person who is paid by the people I do not put a lot of faith into.
Example - They had just started suspending the Astra zenaca vaccine in Europe. I listened to the morning news about that, then I hear an radio ad from Ontario Government telling me 'Any Vaccine is better than no Vaccine' , Then I get a phone call from my new Dr asking me to come in for the AZ Vaccine, I start asking some questions, her reply 'Any Vaccine is better than no Vaccine' no replys to my questions just that government mandate.
All that put my guard up and I started listening and researching what was really happening with Covid in this world problem. Making my own decisions.
My fully jabbed mother in law has been in the hospital, two actually, for a week now with sudden cardiac issues.
New Brunswick has now made it legal for grocery store keepers to exclude those who don't have the jab.
Australia has been forcefully taking people to "camps" after they test negative for the virus, just because they were "close to" someone who did test positive. Google Darwin, Australia for videos.
Oregon has now made their mask mandates permanent, but tried to explain that the word permanent does not mean permanent.
Oh - and Ole Joe got slapped upside the head again yesterday when his government contractor mandate was shot down in court.
Two years ago anyone reading the above sentences would claim they were fiction, that's how far and fast we have fallen.
Please explain why the FDA asked a Judge to Grant it until the Year 2076 to fully release Vaccine Data?
If that doesn't make you question what is happening you may want to circle back and look into that.
Then explain what is happening in Australia to me. I just spent a few months in Maine where American Radio Station ads were blasting circuit breaker covid propaganda to New Brunswick residents. The ads were paid for by the United Nations. The radio spots were eerily similar messaging to 1940 Germany. They softened the tone down some as the months went by but still held a firm grip on people's activities including a closed border. While that was happening our southern border was well...
The treatment is worse than the Disease.
"This work was strictly voluntary, but any animal who absented himself from it would have his rations reduced by half."
― George Orwell, Animal Farm
Quote from: Southside on December 08, 2021, 09:15:51 AM
New Brunswick has now made it legal for grocery store keepers to exclude those who don't have the jab.
Proof of vaccination can be required if a store has not space for the 2 meter distance spacing. Store owners and staff have a right to a safe work environment. Government staff do, and they've closed the doors to the public before. That being said, stores deliver and they also have folks that do up your groceries on site and you pick up at the curb.
This thread is off the hook. was a good place for information, but now I wonder..
say_what
A question about these boosters. The advice on local news is with J&J vaccination a booster is needed after 2 months. They now say Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vacs can be mixed, but what about switching from J&J to mRNA?
My wife had the J&J last spring (~7 months ago), can/should she switch to Pfizer or Moderna? Would this be one shot (booster) or would she need to reset with 2 shots, 2 weeks apart?
JJ
JJ,
the thread is just fine, you are old enough to retain what you want and decide for yourself.
There is no end to it.
"There’s not going to be an endpoint to this vaccination program..." â€" New Zealand PM Jacinda Ardern - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Czr_53FTuDc)
I do believe one shot boosters. We've always been able to mix vaccines here. I know some folks who got Astrazeneca first followed by Moderna and they are considered fully vaccinated. In Canada *they* are recommending a mRNA vaccine as a booster even if you had a 1 or 2 dose series vaccine initially. Might be different in the USA.
*they* = National Advisory Committee on Immunization
The people who created this mess are also the ones telling you how to treat it.
Ask Gavin Newsome, Governor of California, nephew of Nancy Pelosi how mixing jabs worked out for him.
The media dropped it like a hot potato but it put him out of commission for two weeks.
Quote from: Roxie on December 08, 2021, 07:16:41 AM
Regarding the RFK Jr book, what I find alarming is the belief that you need to agree with an author's lifestyle and political stance in order to simply listen to another person's thoughts and how they formed their opinions. Being left or right isn't contagious.
I certainly don't need to read his/RFK jr's book. I've already (quite easily) developed my own bent toward (actually against!) Dr Fauci. Same for much else that's in the daily news. To become an informed person it's imperative to read various viewpoints, not necessarily all that effort requires a book, thank goodness!
No doubt I'm more "comfy" reading some stuff vs. others but my brains likes to learn.
An example of a study with inaccurate numbers on side effect cases. 'Don't give me the facts, my mind is already made up". Side effects? Yes. Huge numbers, nope.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19-vaccine-study-error-anti-vaxxers-1.6188806
"the study was officially marked as "withdrawn (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.13.21262182v2)" on the medRxiv preprint server, with a link to a statement (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.13.21262182v2) citing a "major underestimation" of the number of doses given."
Quote from: Ricker on December 08, 2021, 06:40:32 AM
Criminal? Matter of perspective.
Does the vaccine have some side effects? Sure it does, it's on the CDC website.
Are unvaccinated people taking up hospital beds and using medical resources for weeks at a time denying those beds to folks who have uncovid related health issues. There are, the statistics don't lie.
I guess it's all in ones opinion what constitutes a crime against humanity.
One doctor/MD in replying to information I was reading yesterday on reflux Rx talk said they were told in medical school-"no reactions no benefits"-thats in my abbreviated words not theirs. The heart of the matter is do you gain anything overall, in spite of side effect potentials, which are sure to be possible.
Quote from: Southside on December 08, 2021, 09:53:29 AMAsk Gavin Newsome, Governor of California, nephew of Nancy Pelosi how mixing jabs worked out for him.
::) Thought it was about facts, not hearsay.
That's not heresay. His office and his security detail discussed the matter early on.
Funny how the media hides facts they don't want discussed.
All of this discussion about the vaccines is but a distraction in the overall fight against this pandemic. What if I said there are real doctors out there that say no one needed to die from this pandemic as there are early treatments that could have saved as many as 500,000 people in this country alone?
Do these actions to fight the pandemic look familiar?
1. pumping up pandemic fears to lay the groundwork for larger budgets and greater powers.
2. periodically stoking waning fear levels by warning of mutant super-strains and future surges
3.suggesting substantial changes to how people live, ostensibly to save lives
4.ignoring and dismissing off-the-shelf therapeutic remedies
5.promising ultimate salvation with vaccines
If you think those actions describe the current pandemic you would be wrong. They describe the disastrous actions of Fauci during the AIDS pandemic in the 1980's.
The best approach to this pandemic is with using already known drugs and techniques in combination that are known to be safe and effective against the known effects of the infection just like what is now the only known method of fighting AIDS. To this day there is no vaccine to fight AIDS yet it is now considered under control.
Anthony Fauci with his ego driven medical malpractice has no business being in charge of the fight against a second disastrous pandemic!
Quote from: JJ on December 08, 2021, 09:34:19 AM
This thread is off the hook. was a good place for information, but now I wonder..
say_what
A question about these boosters. The advice on local news is with J&J vaccination a booster is needed after 2 months. They now say Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vacs can be mixed, but what about switching from J&J to mRNA?
My wife had the J&J last spring (~7 months ago), can/should she switch to Pfizer or Moderna? Would this be one shot (booster) or would she need to reset with 2 shots, 2 weeks apart?
JJ
From what I've hear/read, mixing vaccines if fine. One article I read (don't recall where) said that those that received the J&J single dose were better off (developed more antibodies) getting an mRNA booster than another J&J. That's what I did. J&J in March and Moderna in Nov. Mild side effects for me, but more than the initial shot which was none.
From what I've read, those who received the J&J vaccine are recommended to be boosted early (2 months) with either the Moderna or the Pfizer shot. At the time the boosters were being rolled out, the data was showing that the Moderna vaccine had better coverage for the Delta variant than the Pfizer. So many went in that direction, if they had a choice. Otherwise, take either one.
Weekly report of reported side effects to the vaccines in Canada.
https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccine-safety
Ah, Mr Kennedy. One of "The Disinformation Dozen". Just Google what's in quotes. One hit will likely lead to the Centre for Countering Digital Hate. Their site will reveal a paper naming the notorious 12.
Miscarriages and Other Tragic Side Effects of the mRNA Shots (https://noqreport.com/2021/12/08/miscarriages-and-other-tragic-side-effects-of-the-mrna-shots/)
Quote from: Mooseherder on December 08, 2021, 05:32:40 PM
Miscarriages and Other Tragic Side Effects of the mRNA Shots (https://noqreport.com/2021/12/08/miscarriages-and-other-tragic-side-effects-of-the-mrna-shots/)
Yes but remember that covid also killed 791,514 Americans.
And it killed the flu at the same time, something that had been around over 100 years
Paul- Mooseherder-
That is an incredibly biased article. Here is their claim...
"Preliminary results published in April 2021 show miscarriage occurred in 82-91% of women who got the shot during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy."
They fail to provide a reference for this statement.
Regarding miscarriages and the Covid vaccine... I think you'll find that claim was well refuted by this large NEJM article from Scandinavia, as well as others that they quote.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2114466 (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2114466)
"Our study found no evidence of an increased risk for early pregnancy loss after Covid-19 vaccination and adds to the findings from other reports supporting Covid-19 vaccination during pregnancy.3,4 (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2114466#)"
Thanks Doc, I didn't post the link. The flu comment was in regards to other numbers being skewed as well. While I never enjoyed the flu it was hard to ignore it's absence.
Sorry, Paul. It originated with Mooseherder. My error.
While you're here please address Australia for us.
I visited there many decades ago. :D I don't believe I have any medical experience or opinion with regards to Covid and Australia that differs from Covid anywhere else. What, specifically would you like me to address?
Riddle me this then.
FDA Doubles Down: Asks Federal Judge to Grant it Until at Least the Year 2096 to Fully Release Pfizer?s COVID-19 Vaccine Data (https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/fda-doubles-down-asks-federal-judge?justPublished=true)
I can't type what I just said out loud. The time to be polite and nice is long gone.
Southside- thanks for showing some restraint! You know where to head if you need to blurt out something unfiltered.
Moose- the whole thing is maddening, I agree. To be accurate, my understanding is that they will have a monthly release of information, but the volume of information which they plan to release each month is such that it will take decades for it to be completely released. Entirely inexcusable. On the other hand, I believe that this proposal from the FDA is part of a Freedom of Information Lawsuit, and the matter is anything but settled. I would suggest that your disdain for the situation is justified, and that I am hopeful that the system will work to correct this stupidity.
Doc - you have yet to see me unfiltered, here or there.
So we have to assume thousands of people died in the first months from vaccination. Otherwise, they wouldn't be trying to hide it.
I do believe the number is 1200
You can certainly believe what you want. I do not believe that the initial trials of these vaccines were littered with unreported deaths which were swept under the rug. We have no evidence of this....just speculation. Arguments like these that persist on the stereotypical, "What are they hiding?" basis remind me of the Beatles line..."Got to be good lookin' 'cause he's so hard to see. Come together..." (Not bad advice, don't you think?)
What we have is a demonstrated loss of trust. Such an ideology doesn't trust the CDC, the FDA, the NIH, main stream medical investigations, and statistics from standard sources...all of which are transmitted through main stream media, which are also mistrusted. All of these entities deserve questioning. And within the broad and multiple issues contained in Covid, our degree of trust or distrust can vary. I can't change anyone's level of trust. But this thread can provide information and a basis for scientific discussions and conclusions about this infection, and I think that's its purpose. The link about miscarriages and the vaccine is a good example. What was speculated and posted as "fact" has not been reliably shown to be true.
And that is your opinion not facts. Misdirection and deflection.
We trust different people and I will continue to call it out until we get to the bottom of it.
Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable and feel that you have to discredit information that doesn't fit your leader. If they were legit we wouldn't be here with questions that should have been answered.
Quote from: Southside on December 08, 2021, 10:10:58 PM
I do believe the number is 1200
Source?
Thing is that my back of a napkin maths suggests that if you vaccinated 2/3 of the US population, you might expect to see ~150,000 of them die in the following month. That's just the 2//3 the normal death rate over any normal month'.
Even if you find reported deaths are up by 1200, that's less than 1%, it's not statistically meaningful. (the death numbers naturally vary by 2 or 3 % year to year)
Now if there were excess people dying from some condition that's normally very rare, that would stand out in the VAERS reports. That's were the link between the vaccine and heart inflammation was picked up. Cases increased by ~50% above normal, but it was seldom serious. But in this example, you might actually expect ~8,000 people to suffer strokes and die (with or without the vaccine).
So I'm just interested where that particular number came from?
There are no 'peer reviewed' studies behind most of the BS, that's why you see none cited. Spending time on nefarious websites and certain social media 'groups' will only stir up your feelings. Certain segments of society will ignore the data or twist entirely what is written. How 0.011% incident rate becomes any significant numbers is when you look at millions and millions of shots, which is why they are cited as rare by scientists. They are tragic incidence and those people certainly matter. But their outcome was no more probable than from any vaccine in the past that we are still jabbing into the population. To keep thinking other vaccines have had no serious events is ignoring the evidence. We'd all like a 100% guarantee, but sorry life doesn't deal the same hand to everyone.
'With all the advances in science today only 25% of adults get a passing grade on basic science and economics" Carl Sagan
'Advances in technology only happen from doing things differently in an unpredictable way, it is not an extrapolation of the past." Stanton Friedman.
Top Ten Pandemic Messages from our Government:
Don't use masks, OK use one, or two, maybe three, whatever.
Slow the spread, flatten the curve, wait for the vaccine to save us.
Maintain six feet social distance. well OK, three feet.
If you get infected, stay home and isolate, pass the virus on to your family and friends, don't come back till you can't breathe.
We have found in one study that Hydroxychloroquine is not effective if given at toxic levels to patients in late stages of infection because you will risk death. Do you want to die?
Don't use Ivermectin as it for horses for God's sake. Whatsa matter with you?
Get vaccinated, it probably will not hurt or harm you, perhaps prevent infection, at least for a while.
Vaccinated people do not spread the virus, at least till a mutation occurs.
Kids don't get or spread the virus, but we are going to mask and vaccinate them anyway.
What ever you do don't treat an infection early, unless it with an expensive IV treatment like remdesivir or monoclonal antibody. Don't even think of using a repurposed drug or things like nasal saline rinses to reduce the viral load, aspirin to reduce inflammation, Vitamin D, Zinc or anything else to boost your immune system. You bunch of miscreants!
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 09, 2021, 06:08:18 AM
Certain segments of society will ignore the data or twist entirely what is written.
Yes. Yes they will.
Omicron reduces Covid antibody protection in small study of Pfizer vaccine (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/07/omicron-significantly-reduces-covid-antibody-protection-in-small-study-of-pfizer-vaccine-recipients.html)
QuoteSouth African scientists say the Covid omicron variant significantly reduces antibody protection generated by Pfizer (https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/PFE) and BioNTech's vaccine, although people who have recovered from the virus and received a booster shot will likely have more protection from severe disease, according to a small preliminary study released Tuesday.
The good news is they figure they can create a vaccine against this latest variant by Mar 2022 (only 120 more sleeps till it's available)
Anthony Fauci: ‘We are well prepared… to be able to make variant specific vaccines’ - YouTube (https://youtu.be/hDlPLNVK1lY)
Built-in/planned obsolescence Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/built-in/planned%20obsolescence)
: the practice of making or designing something (such as a car) in such a way that it will only be usable for a short time so that people will have to buy another one
a situation (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/situation) in which goods (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/goods) are deliberately (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/deliberately) made or designed (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/design) so that they do not last for a long (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/long) period (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/period) of time (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/time):
Critics of planned (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/planned) obsolescence (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/obsolescence) call (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/call) it wasteful (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/wasteful) and dishonest (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/dishonest), while supporters (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/supporter) say that it is good for the economy (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/economy).
https://durabilitymatters.com/planned-obsolescence/
QuoteThink about your smartphone. It works fine; you can call, text, use a bunch of apps, but after numerous updates, you find that your smartphone can't handle it all anymore. You may also find that the most recent software updates are no longer compatible with your phone. There is nothing for it other than to buy a new phone.
Many otherwise good products fall victim to software updates, and companies know exactly what they are doing with this.
Thankfully with Bill Gates donations and his flawless record of fighting viruses this probably isn't going to be the case.
Moose-
"Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable and feel that you have to discredit information that doesn't fit your leader. "
I don't feel at all uncomfortable. I don't relate any medical information to any political leader. I do contest information that is not referenced and has multiple, well performed studies that refute what was said. Bickering about me gets us nowhere, except Restricted.
Quote from: Mooseherder on December 08, 2021, 09:11:59 PM
Riddle me this then.
FDA Doubles Down: Asks Federal Judge to Grant it Until at Least the Year 2096 to Fully Release Pfizer?s COVID-19 Vaccine Data (https://aaronsiri.substack.com/p/fda-doubles-down-asks-federal-judge?justPublished=true)
As I skimmed thru that link to the lawyer talk, I asked myself an old question: How in the hell do these agencies crank out 1/3 of a million pages about anything? When I did student financial aid we operated under the regs from the Federal Register regarding federal student aid programs. The state lawyers interpreted things for us as did our professional group which was a good thing given most our time went to serving real students in real time. It was in th hundreds of pages, not hundreds of thousands.
No wonder WA,DC is a mess. ::) Not to mention all the other stuff the FDA hasn't ruled on yet.
I am catching up. In Lafayette, LA. I base my decisions 90% on stuff I known about viruses and vaccines for 30 years. that is what keeps me "on the rails" at least in my opinion. some of the new stuff that makes no sense, or stuff that has been around for 30 and known to be false. anyway. lets move back if we can. Remember it is not that the vaccines do not or cannot have side effects, but I have seen much more death from the virus. I have seen no deaths personally from a vaccine. i have seen many from the virus.
What do you think about the possibility of ongoing boosters against new variants? It must feel like being in a submarine with a screen door
I guess if you use the flex seal... :) anyway, the range of vaccines goes from influenzae each year to smallpox we no longer need. I hope with mutations it loses some of the propensity for lung tissue (sars). I hope the new variant keeps enough fo the old stuff, but becomes benign enough, we need no vaccine. most in fact nearly all mutations make a critter weaker. in fact, most are so bad, the virous does not propagate (survival of the fittest). I hope the omicron makes it so we no longer need a vaccine, but we will see. Our government needs us to need them, and when the virus runs out, they will claim victory for us. but I do not think that thousands of people in charge are fooling us into thinking there is a virus present that is not there, or that they would promote a vaccine that is more harmful, than the disease itself. It is possible we just do not know it yet, but so far it fits with what I am seeing, that the vaccine is saving lives overall. If there are deaths from the vaccine, they may not be the same ones that would have died from the virus (not fair) but fewer people will ultimately die.
Paul-
I agree with doc h. I see three future scenarios, although I'm sure that there are more.
1. The virus mutates to a non-lethal form, so we just live with it and vaccines are not necessary. (Several viruses have taken this path in the past.)
2. You end up getting a Covid/flu shot every year that helps prevent severe disease and death. (Akin to how we attempt to mitigate influenza now)
3. Treatments combined with easy detection remove the need for vaccines. (HIV is a good example).
I'll take door number one Monty
Quote from: Paul_H on December 09, 2021, 12:59:19 PM
I'll take door number one Monty
That does indeed seem the best case scenario.
While not a "fact" yet, early reports out of Sth Africa seem to suggest that the Omicron, although more infectious, has less serious symptoms. Mostly mild for vaccinated, and relatively mild even if not vaccinated. So a BIG rise in reported cases, but they haven't seen a spike in hospital admissions and deaths yet. Symptoms don't seem to be the coughing and breathing problems that are normal Covid symptoms, and those are the main reasons for hospital admissions.
Dr Campbell's video yesterday talked about how Omicron has some markers from one of the Common Cold corona viruses, and possibly came about as a hybrid of the two (in a person that was infected by both viruses at the same time, possibly with HIV medication thrown in the mix). If a persons immune system recognises part of the new virus as "common cold", it's already got some immunity to that, and can stamp it out before you get too sick. The "common cold" fragment may be why it's more infectious, and could also account for the high amount of mutations away from the regular Covid virus.
Like I said, this isn't a "fact" yet, just plausible theory, but also a cause for cautious optimism that door one will be the one we get to take.
Door number one comes with a lifetime supply of Ivermectin
C'mon Paul. You know how the game is played. You can't choose more than one door. If you add Ivermectin, your also choosing door # 3. Geesh....give him an inch and he'll take a mile! :D
:D
I like door # 3.
There was a proposed bill in Illinois to rescind health insurance and not insure folks who aren't jabbed.
You know, that insurance that is a "tax" so it's mandated you buy it.
No allowance for acquired immunity, medical or religious exemptions.
What happens the day the definition of "fully vaccinated" changes? Keep rolling up your sleeve, no matter what.
Perfect example of the slippery slope.
They support these people Jim. It's who they are.
Then laugh in your face with an evil heart.
Quote from: Mooseherder on December 09, 2021, 06:14:31 PM
They support these people Jim. It's who they are.
Then laugh in your face with an evil heart.
I agree. If you are forced to buy health insurance then is makes no sense to prevent you from collecting from said insurance when you get sick of covid, even if you refused the vaccine.
However I would hope that you agree that you could and will be forced to pay a high premium by your insurance company if your refuse the vaccine. Similar to smokers paying a higher premium.
Harvard Study Explodes Myths About 'Vaccines' Stopping the Spread ? But It's Even Worse Than That - Becker News (https://rb.gy/zg1len)
Interesting statistical analysis. I just digested the actual paper, and the article by Mr. Becker leaves out a few issues with the investigation.
First, this is a correlation between many different country's and different US county's percent of fully vaccinated citizens and a 7 day period of reported Covid infections from September 3 - September 10. Their hypothesis is that an area of higher vaccination rates should have less spread of the disease, if the vaccines are protective of disease transmission. Their statistics found that this was not necessarily so. They concluded that vaccinations do nothing to slow the spread of Covid.
They did not study, however, which country's or county's tested more than others. Do country's with high rates of vaccination also perform a higher rate of Covid tests? If so, the lack of correlation between the percentage of the population vaccinated and the 7 day number of documented infections might not be a true correlation, and would, in fact, be skewed toward those countries that have higher vaccination rate. If you test more, you will find more disease.
Further, they have no data on which people were represented in the positive test data. Meaning, did the percentage of people testing positive match the percentages of vaccinated and unvaccinated people in the country? This is a pure database study. As they had no idea whether a positive test was in a vaccinated or unvaccinated person, they cannot provide this information. This data was key to understanding where the increase in infections actually occurred.
Finally, it is well documented that vaccinated people can contract and transmit the disease. The Delta variant was the main driver of that fact. Yet we are provided no data in this study whether those new infections resulted in hospitalization or death, and what representation in those outcomes came from the vaccinated or unvaccinated group.
So the authors made a statistical correlation that needs to be verified and clarified with future data. It is, IMO, an interesting question. The paper is presented within an article/critique written by Mr. Becker. His analysis of the importance of the study represents an overstatement of the conclusions able to be determined from the investigation. It's like much of this information, the headlines ("Explodes Myths") are great but the devil is in the details.
Perhaps the missing statistics are the ones government is keeping from him. :D
Maybe you're right! It must be very hard to combine infection data from 68 countries, each with their own collection methods. Makes for a real mix master of information, which is exactly what they got.
One thing I noticed in the article was they used Israel as an example, and stated that with 60% of adults vaccinated, case numbers were still going up. That's actually to be expected, 1/2 the country still isn't protected. Children that aren't counted in that % can still catch and spread the virus, even if they usually have a mild case, and of course vaccinated folks can still catch the virus and pass it on, but at lower rates. So maybe that vaccination rate cuts the R number from 4 to 1.5, not good enough because cases still go up by 50% a week.
So that was where NZ was when Delta got loose here. Vaccination rate was low, and cases built up really fast, prompting a lockdown to get things back under control. Numbers came down again, and more people got vaccinated as the threat was now more immediate. There were more cases again as the lockdown was relaxed, but now Auckland region (which has seen most of the cases) is about 92% fully vaccinated. Most restrictions have been lifted, and the daily case numbers have still slowly been dropping. Transmission of the virus is still happening, but the R = less than one.
What has changed between Delta variant first arriving and now? Vaccination rate increasing from ~60% to ~90% is really the only significant change. OK, you can also count going from Spring to Summer as a possible mitigating factor as well. Fiji has done similar after being slammed with 1,000+ cases a day, they got 90%+ vaccinated, and cases have now fallen to 10 a day.
Dr B is correct about directly comparing different countries, as we have all used different mitigation strategies, same as different States have done different things. So it gives a very large matrix of variables to try and analyse. But it's still worth looking at case / hospital and death numbers (or more importantly the changes) across different areas, and finding out what they are or are not doing..
Now of course Omicron is going to throw in a whole other variable, but at least it appears to be a more positive one.
Quote from: Southside on December 09, 2021, 06:06:38 PM
There was a proposed bill in Illinois to rescind health insurance and not insure folks who aren't jabbed.
You know, that insurance that is a "tax" so it's mandated you buy it.
No allowance for acquired immunity, medical or religious exemptions.
What happens the day the definition of "fully vaccinated" changes? Keep rolling up your sleeve, no matter what.
Perfect example of the slippery slope.
Translate that thought to the several countries that have socialized medicine.
Anytime we apply common sense to the subject of group insurance, there are many red flags that show up in the form of the multitudes who show little regard for their own well being. Here in the USA what with over 100,000 drug overdose deaths last year that easily comes to mind along with a large snack food aisles and several "isimims" that are popular.
My 4th door question: Given how nasty a common cold can be, perhaps the covid vaccines will move us closer to a cure for the common cold?
There is a difference between having insurance, and having medical care.
Got my booster today. New Hampshire is #1 for new cases in US and Hospitals are full. Eighty percent of folks in hospitals have not gotten a vaccine. The press is reporting that all the vaccine sites are booked up and the state is rushing to have big drive through events prior to the Christmas. There is a walk in clinic nearby, just show up and get the choice of shots. I am on crutches and I got ride to the walk in site. When we got there, there were signs but just a couple of cars in the parking lot. I headed inside and the place was empty except for a few workers. There is no line so I head to the sign in table and get my shot. Sure we are in a rural area but I was surprised. If my booster is like my first two I will feel crappy on Sunday and then hopefully I am good to go. Something wrong with this.
Heard on the radio this evening that a bunch of the local jab clinics will be closed before Christmas until after New Years.
There's a story over at Zerohedge about an innocent person locked up for 2 weeks if anyone is interested.
Yeah look realllll deep into zerohedge before you trust one word on it.
"Colin lokey" should bring up some intetesting stuff. It is an influencer site.
Oh, quit it.
Please discuss issues of personal freedom on the Restricted thread. That is a political discussion. Thank you.
This is not political.
It is a true story.
In a paper in NH the hospitals are filling up un vax people. 6 a day [average] are dying. 140 last month. We have 35% un vax in NH.
Since Dec. 1 72% admitted patients with Covid-19 are un vax 86% of them are in intensive care.
They're taking up beds that other illnesses like heart attacks and strokes.
20% are under 40.
It's said un-vax is 14 times more likely to die
The heath system has halted. Like no hip replacement.
The docs are tided. Short on help too.
Who controls that message. Communists.
Wake Up!
There is an active thread in the Restricted Section on this very topic at this very moment, and posters here are active participants of that thread. The referenced Australian account is all about the government's actions toward a woman who was exposed to Covid, and has nothing to do with Health and Safety or Covid disease. The infringement of personal freedoms that has occurred with the pandemic is a reasonable topic which deserves discussion, but it should not take place here. Whether this incident is true as reported is not the litmus test as to whether a topic belongs here or in the Restricted Section. This is most certainly a political issue, and, as requested previously, I would ask all to consider the nature of their post before deciding the appropriate place to post it.
I DO NOT POST IN THE RESTRICTED SECTION. lets talk about fact of this virus, and the health issues. if someone talks about a Harvard study and or refers to an article about a Harvard study, those are two very different things. Harvard does not need an intermediary. the purpose has been to twist the truth and stretch the meaning of the study.
INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY IS NOT A POLITICAL OR RESTRICTED THREAD MATTER. THESE ARE FACTS AND THEY ARE RELATED TO COVID - AM I TYPING IN CAPS - YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT. DOCTOR B YOU HAVE BEEN RESPECTED IN ALL OF THIS, RESPECT THE FACT THAT THERE ARE ABSOLUTE VIOLATIONS OF THE US CONSTITITION AND HUMAN RIGHTS AS A DIRECT RESULT OF GOVERNMENT REACTION TO THIS SITUATION. YOU CAN CLOSE YOUR EYES ALL YOU WANT.
AS I MENTIONED EARILER, RIGHT HERE IN VIRGINIA, IN MY COUNTY, WHERE WE ARE SOMETHING LIKE 30% BELOW THE NATIONAL AVERAGE JAB RATE THE JAB CENTERS ARE CLOSING FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OVER THE HOLIDAYS - IF THIS IS SO CRITICAL, SO LIFE AND DEATH, THEN WHY WOULD THAT BE HAPPENING?
THESE JAB FACILITIES WILL BE CLOSED FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME THAT THE LOCAL DUMP. THAT'S HOW CRITICAL THEY REALLY ARE.
THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING, IT'S BEYOND TIME FOR FOLKS TO WAKE UP.
No need to shout. I'm right here. Your post is perfect example why these topics need to be separate. It's not about me....or you. It's not about suppressing information for the readership. I'm not censoring anybody. The Restricted Section was designed for such discussions. It's the way the Forum has been run for years, and with good reason.
It might be best to refrain from blame toward those that choose not to be vaccinated as being the problem in our countries,then we won't have to explain our reasons. The rest of the problems here will go away smiley_love
So all this talk about individual rights but all would be fine here if some people didn't exercise their right to question what they see as a problem. Mr. Pot meet Mrs. Kettle.
At times in this thread the way some have spoken to Doc Henderson and DoctorB has been less than respectful. But that's my opinion not a statistical fact, probably shouldn't have mentioned it.
Not only is this discussion misplaced as the doctors have said but also there is nothing to be gained from pointing the finger at each other over a less than effective vaccine.
Did I post in the wrong place?
gentleman, dont be divided. that is precisely the entire point of all these active measures.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 11, 2021, 06:27:17 AM
Did I post in the wrong place?
i just lost a big post too. maybe we glitched each other out
or the google overlords are hard at work. ;D
I just posted what I read in the paper is all.
I don't care if some-one gets vax or not.
It's all in father's plain.
I talk to him every day. And I'm at peace with my self.
:christmas:
I did not mean to do caps but was too lazy to change it. I do not like the mandates and consider that to be political event. I do think the vaccine helps reduce severity and that does help hospitals. I was on the phone for an hour trying to get 10 people setting in the ED, admitted to the hospital, as we had no staffed beds, and they were just setting in the ED waiting to be transferred or admitted. they found one open bed, in Arkansas. My Docs and APPs are getting tired of day after day doing the impossible. That is my consideration, is weather we lose staff. we have lost a few. most are finding it the same no matter where they go. some come back. So, my concern is for our staff, community, and our patients. Lots of PTSD, and otherwise bad habits and behaviors festering up in medical workers. not healthy, and as I have said before, there is a point at which it all falls apart. those are my concerns with those not vaxed. We have been doing this for almost 2 years. If everyone starts to quit, then all those who are sick will suffer, and they already are. If an elderly person falls out of a nursing home bed and has to be flown 3 states away to get a bed to get her hip fixed (that we can do at our hospital) then that is sad.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 11, 2021, 07:19:40 AM
I talk to him every day. And I'm at peace with my self.
:christmas:
amen amen
and i agree doc, who takes care of the caretakers who cant manage the long term stress? its not good. we have to remember to keep our heads screwed on.
I agree Doc. You made a comment, no quote here, over the years, I have seen deaths from the disease, but not from vaccine's.
I am going to see my son out west in Feburary, and will need to get a covid vaccine. I have always planned on getting a vaccine, and resisited as long as I could. I do not live in a high risk enviroment. Well I am heading into the hisk risk enviroment, airport, cities, in general I am heading to 'civilization'.
I am lookng at the JJ as it has been brought into Canada again. Am I correct to think it has less risk for side effects than the MRNA . I like the idea of old technology.
Quote from: Stephen1 on December 11, 2021, 08:18:43 AM
I am lookng at the JJ as it has been brought into Canada again. Am I correct to think it has less risk for side effects than the MRNA . I like the idea of old technology.
@Stephen1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=3648)
This is a nice overview of current vaccineshttps://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison (https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison)
Something to think about. I quit following this thread some time ago because it makes me sicker than covid. Ya know why? At this moment in time, this forum will die with me If I get sick and die, and then, when the server farm doesn't get paid, within a week or two this conversation and all the rest will all be gone and all of this palpable animosity flying back and forth within it between people on here I truly care very much about, will stop.
When I started this forum, I never had a clue it was susceptible to a human virus.
Back in April an June Rita an I got the Pfiser jabs, neither one of us had any problems. Last Sat. I got the modurna jab full shot as I have no immunity, other than a small b&b and a hole from the second jab (I think it was from holding the needle at an angle) I've had no problems.
Quote from: Southside on December 10, 2021, 10:30:21 AM
There is a difference between having insurance, and having medical care.
That very fact is still in full effect as so many procedures were postponed back when medical services were shut down that they are yet to catch up. This is not limited to hospital beds either. I'm currently into my 2nd year with one molar in my lower jaw. The solution is not found in a hospital bed but rather a dental chair.
Too many e.g.'s to be worth mentioning plus many medical services lack staff to catch up anytime soon.
I quit this thread for a bit then back again, as I learn something here about covid AND human nature as well.
I still say this thread (sometimes :D) resembles a motorcycle helmet law thread? ::)
We both had jab #3 of Moderna last week, no issues but since then, what with more recent discussion toward virus variants- I'm wondering if that 50mg of vaccine might better have been another/3rd, 100mg dose?
My son is sick with confirmed covid. Mandatory 14 day quarantine. We have confirmed 2x now that my daughter who lives in the same room as my son, is allowed to return to school.
So thats an interesting policy change. We are going to keep her out at least a few days anyway but dont want to risk them keeping her back for absence.
This marks the 2nd time i have lived with, snuggled with and shared a cup with active covid without getting it. or getting sick from it anyway. I am unvaxxed.
Its pretty well documented that the immune systems of dirty, poor nations is stronger than affluent clean ones because of a more developed immune response from more frequent exposure to icky things. My always dirty nature seems to fall in line with that. Wife said shes seen me sick 3x in 12 years. I think its been a few more than that but surely not many.
I am confidents masks, sanitizer and germophobia is only going to make people sicker.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 12, 2021, 10:35:02 PMMy always dirty nature seems to fall in line with that
I think your healthy eating has a bit to do with it.
Thats quite recent
I was raised on mcdonalds pizza chinese taco bell and subway after my mother left. The oven was where arc rods lived at all times unless i was preheating something to weld.
None us men got fat but we all have arthritis and really shot joints.
I don't get sick. Wife has known me for more than 25 years. Once I had an ear infection that put me down for a day. Than when I had all that trouble about 1½ years ago. That's it, in 25 years. And it goes back more than that.
With my health problems, if I don't get the shot, I am a dead man. Not much of a choice. :(
No problem with either shot.
We went to a mall for the booster. Got there not as early as I wanted, but no long line. Might have been 6 people in front of us. As we waited, people started to come in. We just made it. 10 minutes would have put us 20 in front of us, 20 people behind us.
Go early, like when they first open up. The Army was there checking us in, while the hospital staff was doing the shots.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 12, 2021, 10:35:02 PM
My son is sick with confirmed covid. Mandatory 14 day quarantine. We have confirmed 2x now that my daughter who lives in the same room as my son, is allowed to return to school.
So thats an interesting policy change. We are going to keep her out at least a few days anyway but dont want to risk them keeping her back for absence.
This marks the 2nd time i have lived with, snuggled with and shared a cup with active covid without getting it. or getting sick from it anyway. I am unvaxxed.
Its pretty well documented that the immune systems of dirty, poor nations is stronger than affluent clean ones because of a more developed immune response from more frequent exposure to icky things. My always dirty nature seems to fall in line with that. Wife said shes seen me sick 3x in 12 years. I think its been a few more than that but surely not many.
I am confidents masks, sanitizer and germophobia is only going to make people sicker.
I'm not convinced these surgical masks do anything at all, they are literally just chin cloths. I'm sure you've used a loose fitting dust mask before while grinding metal and still end up with snot balls full of metal dust, how would those loose fitting masks help with a even finer particle? They don't. I'm not sure why everyone is just going with it, the only thing I can see that they would help is if you sneezed or coughed in the open(which would be rude IMO even before covid)they might reroute the spit particles but they're still getting out of those loose masks.
The conspiracy part of me thinks it’s some kind of social experiment, wonder how children will develope socially after years of not being able to properly read someone’s facial expressions, maybe dehumanizing?
I suppose it’s in their best interest we are more socially inept and therefor unable to connect with fellow man and become stronger. They want you to be docile, weak, friendless, no community, just a nice little drone that complys and pays there taxes(which are in a lot of cases theft).
I agree the mask does not scrub the air and remove the viruses, and freely filter air. It makes it hard to understand others due to muffling the sound and we cannot get clues from expressions and reading lips. i do think it baffles high velocity droplets. cough, sneeze, talking, taking deep breaths. Imagine you have a stethoscope in your ears and need the other end of a 22-inch tube on someone's chest and need them to take a deep breath. i can tell you when you ask someone to do that, they look right at you. I have not had a confirmed case in myself either, but with some being asymptomatic, I cannot believe i have not had it. I do know that with all the mitigation, we had hardly any influenza last winter. Also @mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722) remember it can have a 7-to-15-day incubation period. A PA at work lives with her husband and sister-in-law, and she felt bad, but tested neg. for 2 weeks, then turned positive. We should use PAPRs if we are concerned about a procedure with a covid patient. Admittedly, most healthcare folks have gotten lax and just wear the surgical mask. the other issue with masks is fogging up of safety/reader glasses. I also do not think coughing in your elbow makes any sense but keeps the germs off your hands and touching objects and others. all the mitigation is to not overwhelm the hospitals. We are taking care of people in the waiting room and people needing admitted cannot be transferred anywhere, so sit in the ED for days as the hospital is full relative to staffed (nursing shortage) beds. It could be much worse.
I lift my shirt up and sneeze into it(down the neck) lol . I'm sure it looks weird but I assure no spit particles get out !
There is also the thing where if I half to sneeze in a vehicle with others I roll the window down and sneeze out it
I got my booster last Thursday, the 9th. Pretty well organized at the local Walgreens. One thing was different from the other jabs. Back then those of us waiting were given a briefing while we waited the 15 minute observation period. Part of that briefing covered the fact that the 3 vaccine makers were looking into whether or not a booster would be needed. This time I didn't have to wait 15 minutes. Jab, update my card, then i was free to go. No observation period needed this time.
The woman that cuts my hair is hard of hearing, and mostly reads lips. If you or someone you know wears a mask with glasses you may be entitled to condensation.
Talked with brother yesterday. A friend of a friend got his 2nd shot had a heart attack following day and is in a coma. Its someone he does physically know and is a healthy active deer hunter.
so, @mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722) I am sorry to hear about your friend. that should and will be reported but it is still possible he would have had the heart attack anyway (prob. not what you are thinking), or if not got really sick from covid without the booster. I know that may irritate some that I say that, but that is the scientific method to not make assumptions.
New info from our task force meeting this am. Our local infectious disease doc updated us on the new omicron. This is considered a partial escape variant, meaning the antibodies from the vaccine, prev. infection or having had the disease do not protect you from it as well. The mutations were mostly in the spike protein, and the antibodies to the spike protein do not fit as well now to cover it to prevent attachment that is needed for replication. the Pfizer vaccine with two doses does prevent 37% of infections with the virus, and with the booster it is up to 75%. so, there are breakthrough cases, but not everyone exposed gets it. so, it does prevent infection, but not 100%
you can see if you have antibodies to the spike protein, in a lab or by giving blood. still a huge need. if you are not vaccinated, and want to know if you have had covid, go give blood. you will get a free test, and the shortage is so great, they are giving gifts with a donation most places. If you were vaccinated, you can request a anti nucleic acid capsule antibody, and this will tell you that you had an infection.
He agrees, we hope Omicron is less deadly, and if more infectious, may burn this thing out. we will see. He pointed out how the stock market is hinged to each bit of good or bad news with this new variant. Maybe we can start an insider trading conspiracy thread. :)
so, mike if you give blood and have anti spike antibodies, it maybe you have had this already and that is why you are not sick or testing +. I am sorry if you have given info to the contrary to this already. my brain is full.
Quote from: HemlockKing on December 13, 2021, 06:17:16 AM
The conspiracy part of me thinks it's some kind of social experiment, wonder how children will develope socially after years of not being able to properly read someone's facial expressions, maybe dehumanizing?
I suppose it's in their best interest we are more socially inept and therefor unable to connect with fellow man and become stronger. They want you to be docile, weak, friendless, no community, just a nice little drone that complys and pays there taxes(which are in a lot of cases theft).
Mr. HemlockKing,
You have been admitted to the Restricted topics Board. That is the place for conspiracy theories and social engineering theories.
Doc, is the Red Cross doing antibody testing again for blood donations? They had stopped back in July. I just checked my donation record and no covid testing results posted since May.
I am told they are, but I will double check.
I watched this on youtube yesterday and it opened up my mind on how a varient can change vaccine effectiveness.
COVID-19 Animation: What Happens If You Get Coronavirus? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/5DGwOJXSxqg)
very good and pictures/video is worth a thousand words. sounds like it was made pre-vaccine. the current ones direct antibodies against the spike but getting the disease can produce innumerable antigen/antibody reactions. (Redundancy and protection at different stages of the disease).
Our numbers here are approaching what we saw last November during our peak. We ran out of ventilators, bi-paps and arvoes and had to send security to the state capitol (Topeka) to pick up 10 more vents while I was in Louisianna.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 12, 2021, 10:35:02 PM
My son is sick with confirmed covid. Mandatory 14 day quarantine. We have confirmed 2x now that my daughter who lives in the same room as my son, is allowed to return to school.
So thats an interesting policy change. We are going to keep her out at least a few days anyway but dont want to risk them keeping her back for absence.
This marks the 2nd time i have lived with, snuggled with and shared a cup with active covid without getting it. or getting sick from it anyway. I am unvaxxed.
Its pretty well documented that the immune systems of dirty, poor nations is stronger than affluent clean ones because of a more developed immune response from more frequent exposure to icky things. My always dirty nature seems to fall in line with that. Wife said shes seen me sick 3x in 12 years. I think its been a few more than that but surely not many.
I am confidents masks, sanitizer and germophobia is only going to make people sicker.
There has also been much said and written about my generation who rolled in dirt as kids being more resistant. I don't buy that 3rd world thing myself as those who live there have plenty to deal with healthwise, not like they get a free pass on no problemos.
Anecdotal anivaxxer situations are just that, anecdotal. In my (quite often) medical visits I get asked the regimen of covid questions-"have you been, etc., etc.. and answer by saying, "yes, I've probably been around someone who has covid, but either they or me didn't know they had it". I'm not being my regular smart -ass self, just the whole logical truth? Covid is all around us, other than in my woods, shop, so on.
TN is one state thats kept kids in school! We have 5 there now and last year mostly they went everyday, all day, other than a few quarantine events. I like that approach to keep kids in school, generally speaking. Our local did better than some places, but worse than TN. Ours had one "makeup day" on Fridays which was in reality a let's stay home day and do whatever we want too besides school work.
Quote from: Claybraker on December 13, 2021, 07:12:52 AM
I got my booster last Thursday, the 9th. Pretty well organized at the local Walgreens. One thing was different from the other jabs. Back then those of us waiting were given a briefing while we waited the 15 minute observation period. Part of that briefing covered the fact that the 3 vaccine makers were looking into whether or not a booster would be needed. This time I didn't have to wait 15 minutes. Jab, update my card, then i was free to go. No observation period needed this time.
The woman that cuts my hair is hard of hearing, and mostly reads lips. If you or someone you know wears a mask with glasses you may be entitled to condensation.
FWIW, The lady who cuts my hair-she and I have been having an affair for over 50 years and her hearing exceeds that of a German Shepard! :D No condensation involved... 8)
I did a senior flu shot @ CVS, sign up online for like 15 vaccines on the list. Pharmacists do the shot then back to counting pills.
Doc Henderson,
What is the efficiency of the Moderna vaccine based on your meeting this morning?
Also do you have any idea why it is said that the mutations occur in the vaccinated more so than those who been vaccinated.
Thanks
Ron
I do not know about Moderna, as it was not quoted, but i will try to find out. the data may be sporadic as this is so new. I am not sure about more mutations in vaccinated, but it may be because the vaccinated folks are less likely to get the original viruses and therefore statistically more likely to get a variant that they are more susceptible to. there have prob been millions of variations/mutations, but since it usually makes a virus less infectious or dangerous, you never hear about them. as an example, if the mutation makes the virus unable to replicate or attach, it will never reproduce and become prevalent enough to be discovered. It is like if 100% of the population was vaccinated, then 100% of breakthrough cases would be in vaccinated people, and no cases in the unvaccinated. this is why you have to look at a numerator over a denominator of possible cases. so if there were 10 cases of covid and all were vaccinated, it might seem bad. if you say there were 10 cases out of 100,000 vaccinated people, not so bad. 1 covid case out of 10 non vaccinated people, well that is 10%. the other is 0.01%
you can also look at it like staph infections. early on, PCN works well. but if you have an infection with a million staph, and the PCN kills all but 2 bacteria that have some resistance, then the next infection may come from those two "Arnold Schwarzenegger" bacteria, and now you have MRSA.
I did give blood at 1, and our area stopped testing for covid 2 months ago. Do not worry, they are still checking me for hepatitis, HIV, syphilis, and a few other things. I will let you all know! :o :)
Quote from: ronwood on December 13, 2021, 01:57:11 PMAlso do you have any idea why it is said that the mutations occur in the vaccinated more so than those who been vaccinated.
Mutations of the virus happen all the time. but 99.999% don't "improve" the virus, so they die out, or are so minor that they have no real effect, and are just useful in tracking infection chains.
The more concerning ones would be mutations that allow the virus to spread faster, or avoid the immune system, in either vaccinated or recovered patients. A far as anyone knows the Delta variant came out of India, which had a very low vaccination rate. The variant is more infectious, both in the unvaccinated folks, AND more able to break through the vaccines, simply because it's more infectious.
A theory is that it's possible a random mutation in a vaccinated person that allowed the virus to evade that vaccine immunity better would have a survival advantage. The person's immune system would quickly mop up the original virus, leaving them infected with the resistant strain, and able to spread that to other vaccinated people around them. As far as I'm aware that hasn't actually happened (YET). The new strains simply seem more infectious overall, and so more able to break through vaccine immunity, although the vaccines still gives partial protection (a milder case). Omicron seems more able to infect vaccinated, recovered AND non-exposed people better.
So it's not so much that mutations Happen more in vaccinated people, in fact it's probably less as there is less virus replication in a vaccinated person, and they usually fight off the infection quicker. But a random mutation in that person might select for vaccine resistance, where as in a unvaccinated person, that vaccine resistance wouldn't be any advantage. And that would be very concerning, as we would be back to late 2019 again.
It's sorta Catch 22. But the more cases you have, the more likely you are to get new mutations. The most concerning mutations have come from areas with low vaccination and LOTS of cases (India and Sth Africa). We haven't seen dangerous mutations appear in countries with low case numbers and high vaccine rates. (As I said, YET)
the first case here was a guy in CA that returned from SA. the real issue here now is delta, and the Pfizer vaccine does decrease infection rates for that, up to 75% with the booster. I gave blood at one, get the booster at 4. I expect it to go well, we will see.
Quote the real issue here now is delta
Same here in NZ. Delta was just too difficult to fully eliminate. But adult vaccine rates are ~90% now, so between that and some common sense precautions case numbers haven't risen out of control, and most restrictions are being lifted.
Christmas is the main holiday time here, so that will be the real test. Lots of people will be travelling, but schools are all closed and it's coming into Summer
I have a question ( which may have already been answered in the first 177 pages which I have yet to read - if so I apologize .
How would a person's immune system defeat cv19 - if they have NOT been vaccinated ? Good genes is my guess . Even tho I ve been jabbed 3 times I am curious .
The corollary to this is what steps a person ( vaccinated or not ) can take to increase their chance of survival - especially with little complications.
Back some ~ two years ago I hypothesized that pumping up your immune system was a good strategy
and of course now I am getting ready to celebrate the two year anniversary of our original two week flatten the curve . . . .
so you have a good immune system. the problem is with infectious diseases that kill you before your immune system can save you. The first time for any infection takes longer as the immune system has to develop from scratch antibodies to label something as foreign and bad, so it can be destroyed. next time it has memory and it takes less time to mount a response. even if the antibodies have declined after so much time, there are memory cells just waiting for the opportunity to make those antibody's again. antibodies label the bad stuff and trigger other chemicals and cells to come to action. all this chemical battle is what causes inflammation, and itself causes some/most of the harm. it triggers fever, which is a sign of infection and actually improves the function of the chemicals in the reaction that tears apart cell membranes and destroys the agent. viruses are not alive, just membranes containing packets of DNA or RNA that can incorporate into live cells and reproduce and go on to infect other cells. it may kill the host, and move on. If it is a cold virus (like the old corona viruses) you have a cold, and then have immunity for future similar viruses. Kids are born with their moms variety of antibodies. these last for 5 months, then the kid is on their own, and must get a hundred viruses by the age of 5 to develop their own immune system for the common stuff. this virus (covid) does not kill you directly, but it has a propensity for lung cells. Your immune system goes to the site of infection and starts ripping apart infected cells, now seen as foreign, and all the inflammation creates swelling (not good for thin fragile membranes that are suppose to let gasses through) this also produces mucus and debris and then for some reason you cannot breath. (sarcasm). the vaccine is supposed to create a foe infection to prepare your body for "if you get the infection". It has all happened so fast. The alternative is to have to wait 20 years for a vaccine. instead we have the opportunity to use it before we know all the facts. The debate is weather to wait till all is known, and poss. loose millions why we wait. or do we jump in with technology (developed in the past) assuming, hoping, studying as we go, that it works and saves more live than would be lost if we did nothing. It is hard to wait when you think you have an answer. it is hard to "choose" when you are being told what to do. ... does that answer your question. ??? ;) :) we do not have all the answers.
Quote from: Bill on December 13, 2021, 09:58:44 PMHow would a person's immune system defeat cv19 - if they have NOT been vaccinated ? Good genes is my guess . Even tho I ve been jabbed 3 times I am curious .
This is a good question, and relates to how the immune system reacts to any new foreign invader. How it works is immune cells can potentially make millions of different antibody combinations, depending on what is attacking. Those cells are there, but few in number and don't do anything until they come across something that matches the exact protein combination they are randomly set to latch on to. If that happens the few immune cells that have that particular "key" will both produce antibodies, AND multiply. You get other effects like fever and inflammation as a side effect of that immune response. Your body has the blueprints to make practically any antibody it might need, but not enough cells to mass produce them at first.
Now it becomes a competition between the virus multiplying, and your immune response to that virus building up. If you are lucky, and have a good immune system, your body gets ahead of the virus, before too much damage is done. You end up with a mild case, and soon recover. That's what happens when you catch a cold for example. Unfortunately you might be unlucky, and the virus keeps ahead, damages your body and eventually overloads the immune system so that itself goes haywire, and starts harming your own body. Then you die.
Now if you survive this, you now have antibodies and the cells to make more, If you get exposed again soon after, you body will laugh at the virus and kill it off quick. That's naturally acquired immunity.
Now what any vaccine does is shows your immune system a harmless or partial version of the virus, this creates a mild (hopefully) immune response, and causes the relevant immune cells to multiply and start making antibodies for that particular virus, without you actually catching the disease. In the case of the Pfizer vaccine, that takes 2 or 3 shots to build up good protection, AND the protection seems to gradually wear off. The antibodies gradually clear from your system as no more are being produced, and the Immune cells that can make them gradually die off I assume, although that takes longer. This is true for both vaccine AND natural immunity, although the natural immunity might be slightly better?
But the idea (of any vaccine) is that it "pre-primes" your immune system, before the virus gets there. If the virus then invades, you have 1,000X times as many of the right immune cells to fight it. and some antibodies already in your blood. It's activated the same immune cells that the virus was going to, just before the infection. That gives you a couple of days head start over the non-vaccinated person. The virus might get clobbered before it really gets a foothold, and you are considered immune. Or you might get a milder case by fighting off the virus sooner. If your immune system sucks because you are old and/or sick, you might be unlucky and still die, but that's MUCH less likely.
The "new" part of the MRNA vaccines is that they use "messenger RNA", which causes your own cells to produce the protein fragment that matches part of the virus, rather than modifying a deactivated virus to cause the same immune response like more traditional vaccines. But the end result is similar. The MRNA in the vaccine gets used up in the process, and the target protein molecules created get cleaned up by your newly trained immune system. The only real risk is an out of control immune response, and that's a much more likely risk in an actual virus infection. There have been some unfortunate side effects from the vaccine, but from local numbers your chance of dying from the vaccine is about 1 in 7 million. Chances of dying while acquiring natural immunity, about 1 in 167.
QuoteBack some ~ two years ago I hypothesized that pumping up your immune system was a good strategy
and of course now I am getting ready to celebrate the two year anniversary of our original two week flatten the curve
Frustrating isn't it. What's most frustrating is the idea of not taking the vaccine "because it doesn't work". Of course it wont work if you haven't had it. Best protection is still to get a booster shot, because while you have a significant portion of the population that's still on "Team Virus" doing their best to spread it, it's going to be spread. 2 years down the track and we are still seeing ~8,000 dead each day around the world.
Let me piggy back a bit on doc h's reply.
Throughout this thread, there's been a lot said about improving one's immune system. There's a whole lot to unpack with that....and the answer at the end of the day is....we have yet to understand how to measure a person's "abilities" with regard to their immune system, and we don't really know how to determine what maximizes your immunity.
People are different, and their immune systems are different. There's evidence that being exposed to lots of different stuff (call it the playing in the dirt theory) makes your immune system stronger. Kinda makes sense, but how does one determine that? There's evidence that a good diet and adequate levels of vitamins lead to decreased infections. While we can measure vitamin levels, we still don't know how that really happens.
And we then have our cultural response to such unknown factors.....take a whole lot of supplements! And the more you take, the stronger your immune system (and potentially every other human frailty) will be! ;D ;) Probably not. There are hosts of tests to see how your body reacts to chosen substances, drugs, and other allergens. We don't have the same battery of tests to see how you'll handle pneumococcal pneumonia, strep throat, MRSA, or coronavirus. Heck, it wasn't too long ago we were wiping down school desks for fear of MRSA. Man, things have changed.
Somewhere in the future, I envision that we will be able to "see" how we individually would handle such infections, and efforts to boost the immune response against them could be implemented. But some of us probably have our immune systems operating near their peak level, and no amount of tests or supplements will improve it much beyond that point.
My point is that I don't look at my immune system in the same way one looks at your muscle mass. If you want to get stronger, exercise more, lift weights, work out and you will get stronger. There is no gym for our immune systems. I believe most people are actually trying to prevent a decrease in their immune response that could be caused by a dietary lack of needed building blocks. Once those blocks are in adequate supply, which I don't think requires boxes of pills everyday, I'm not sure you can continue to "make it stronger". If you have a medical condition or a diet that doesn't supply the right stuff over a long period of time, then maximizing the needed elements makes sense. But I'm not sure that the average person can make a huge improvement in their immune response to a given infection through supplements. Now, this is all my opinion, so forgive me. Please realize that one of the reasons it is unreferenced opinion is that we know so little about our immune response system.
I have read many research papers lately on immune response trying to troubleshoot a disease and anyone who tells you that the human race knows exactly how it works is IMO, out of step with the people studying it. The leading researchers know alot. Enough to make my eyes cross and put me to sleep every night, but every paper ends with maybes and perhapses and we dont knows. Which i certainly believe to be the case.
Gut microbial disbyosis is a sure way to have your immune system attacking you without any need for covid. Apparently many viruses can also trigger the immune system to attack the host and cause chronic disease. If you figure out how to solve that riddle you better bottle it and nail up a shingle that says 'we are open.'
western medicine has yet to cure any of the chronic immune diseases that im aware of. Excellent at lifesaving from traumatic injury. Terrible at disease prevention, it is rising continually in the US.
Those individuals who seem to have gone rogue and credibly claim to have cured themselves, have radically changed diet as a common denominator. Excessive Linoleic acid and bacterial composition of the stomach seem to be the two most common themes i am encountering in all these studies of a wide range of sickness.
You wanna be sick less and feel better in every way? Load up on fruits veggies and fish often.
remember it is your immune system after a viral infection that is thought to be the cause of type 1 diabetes in kids after the immune response cross references your pancreatic cells. it is not perfect. If you are sick in the hospital with covid, we give you large doses of steroids, to quell and decrease your immune response. "The cure (immune system and inflammation) is worse than the disease". it is complex and confusing. the immune system is destroying the viral infected cells, and also you in the process. it is like a war, and you are not sure who is winning until it is over. You may survive but have lasting injury to tissue like cardiac, brain, lung. how do you know what will be worse, the whole virus or some part of it designed to mimic a protein.
I'm so sad for humanity, but do want to again thank our doc henderson and doctorb! You've kept us grounded.
In addition I would like to share with our members a protocol developed by Dr Peter A McCullough for use at home after a day of exposure to others:
Use 2 teaspoons of hydrogen peroxide or betadine in 6 ounces of water and first use part in nasal syringe (both nostrils) until it goes down your throat. Spit it out. Then use the rest of the mixture as a mouth rinse and gargle then spit out.
@Ianab (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=460) you're mistaken if you think unvaccinated people have joined "team virus" and doing their best to spread it. Thought this was about facts and not opinions? Your statement there was anything but facts.
So the immune system is just like being an offensive lineman. :) You hear a lot more about it when something goes wrong than when things go right. We don't yet know how to measure "right" as it pertains to immunity.
Ian, that team virus comment is extremely distasteful. Injections such as that into this coversation in my humble opinion are unproductive to maintaining any harmony in this conversation and serves to raise my personal message count that id rather not have to deal with.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 14, 2021, 01:12:35 AM"The cure (immune system and inflammation) is worse than the disease". it is complex and confusing. the immune system is destroying the viral infected cells, and also you in the process. it is like a war, and you are not sure who is winning until it is over. You may survive but have lasting injury to tissue like cardiac, brain, lung. how do you know what will be worse, the whole virus or some part of it designed to mimic a protein.
From what i am reading the immune system coming into contact with things it doesnt "understand" causes it to go suicidal. Attacking the hosts own brain stem or nerve myelin or joints or intestines or..
There are many who think the dietary changes of the last 120 yrs create the backdrop for this 'foreign object' haywire immune response. Its hard to know since medicines' understanding of what is going on inside a person has changed so radically in that time frame.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 13, 2021, 10:40:58 PM...
It is hard to wait when you think you have an answer. it is hard to "choose" when you are being told what to do. ... does that answer your question. ??? ;) :) we do not have all the answers.
Thank You .
Although I have very little medical training ( does Boy Scouts first aid 50+ yrs ago count ? ) I seem to have accumulated a bunch of unrequested OJT experience .
Some thoughts for others ( and the more medically astute among us ? ) . I have spring and fall allergies and am told its cause I have an overactive immune system . hmmmm
I get a fair number of colds ( cause of my moist allergy susceptible sinuses or different variants of virus ? ) but I have " devised " my own ( non FDA approved ) remedies.
ie One of them runs counter to the old tales Grandma used to subscribe to. I go outside in the sun and fresh air as much as I can when I get sick . Way back - early 70's - a Dr told me when I got sick in my first indoor job it was because I wasn't getting all the sunshine and fresh air that killed " germs " as when I was outdoors.
Another theory of mine is to change the reaction .
If you heat wood in a frying pan it catches fire - but - put wood in water in that pan and no fire. Simple - change the factors and you get different outcome.
Seems to me it could be used way more often in illness treatments than I m aware . . . .
ie may explain why my nasal allergy spray seems to take the bite out of nasal infections - heck even a saline solution seems to help . ( Note: to critics - I did say " seems " )
Some may think I practice homeopathic medicine - answer is yes - till a traumatic event occurs that requires allopathic medicine cause - so far I prefer this side of the grass . . .
I certainly don't want to give the impression that we are "nowhere" when it comes to understanding and using our immune system in certain instances. We have made some incredible strides. If you want to check that out, I suggest you look at all those medical advertisements you see on TV. Don't look at the brand name of whatever they are trying to sell, look at the generic name below it. If you do, you will note that many, many of these new drugs end in the same three letters, "xxxxxxxxmab". That stands for Monoclonal AntiBody. And that means we are using the immune system to attack something. Could be psoriasis, chronic bowel disease, diabetes, cancer, or a host of other ailments. We are partnering with the immune system more than ever before, and the new vaccines are just another pathway into manipulating it for our benefit.
Bill, sunlight somehow produces vitamin D in our cells.
Quote from: doctorb on December 14, 2021, 10:30:34 AMend in the same three letters, "xxxxxxxxmab". That stands for Monoclonal AntiBody
I learn something new every day here!
A little OT: I just watch those ads and listen for the long list of side effects... most seem to have "and may include death." One also added, "even after you stop taking xxx". Is the risk of death worth stopping hair loss? :D
I call BS on "Team Virus" Ian. R e s p e c t, what it means to you and me.... And thanks Jeff, I did not see your post as I went straight to the bottom to reply.
lots of things make us feel better but do not affect the course of the disease. nasal irritation from allergy or infection may feel better with nasal spray. Even things known not to help at all, will make people feel better if they believe it might or will. the Placebo effect. The immune system works off a series of chemicals and triggers. it is not perfect. you may die from overwhelming infection or an overwhelming immune response, or both. allergies are an overactive immune response to foreign substances like pollen. Anaphylaxis is the extreme example. we try to do immune modulation. for rheumatoid arthritis, you may actually be on a chemo agent. anytime we use a steroid we are tryin to quiet the immune response, like asthma, poison ivy, arthritis, covid pneumonitis. there are different types of reactions and to different degrees. this is why there are specialties in allergy and immunology, and rheumatology. a transfusion reaction to blood, is your body taking out red cells that differ in antigenic makeup, like A+ or B-. It is antibodies that identify those antigens and mark foreign cells for destruction. inflammation in the plaque in a coronary artery, may prompt a myocardial infarction. ibuprofen is also anti-inflammatory. during a stress or sever infection, your body produces 2-to-3-times more steroid which seems counterintuitive. your adrenal produces the equivalent of 7 mg of prednisone a day. we give stress dose steroids to people whos adrenals do not work, and why we taper down steroid if used more than 7 days. antibiotics enhance the immune system. you can fight an infection without antibiotics, but you cannot fight infection without an immune system (with antibiotics alone). This is why infection is so dangerous to people after chemo. most chemo attacks rapidly reproducing cells like cancer cells. It there for affects the GI tract, and white blood cells as these reproduce rapidly.
I feel Ian has contributed much, and we have all had moments we stated things maybe off a degree or two, myself included. We should all be patient with one and other, and this extends also to Ian.
Quote from: Jeff on December 14, 2021, 09:25:59 AM
Ian, that team virus comment is extremely distasteful. Injections such as that into this coversation in my humble opinion are unproductive to maintaining any harmony in this conversation and serves to raise my personal message count that id rather not have to deal with.
Apologies to anyone that I offended.
It's just riles me that we have had instances even here in NZ of people abusing vaccination staff, death threats and physical assaults. That's a whole different ball game than simply choosing not to be vaccinated, and that was the people the comment was aimed at. They are actually taking active measures that will HELP spread the virus. Then there's the whole misinformation thing, not people simply saying what they believe, but deliberate spreading of info they actually KNOW is wrong, for profit, ratings, political agenda, or to push fake medicines. We all know that's been happening, and I don't apologise for calling them out.
Again, sorry if I wasn't clear on that, and sorry if it's caused you a headache.
Its become a highly stressful touchy world in a short period of time and we all need to stick together one way or another.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 14, 2021, 02:14:33 PM
Its become a highly stressful touchy world in a short period of time and we all need to stick together one way or another.
It really has! I can't believe how different 2011 is from 2021
Quote from: HemlockKing on December 14, 2021, 02:17:06 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 14, 2021, 02:14:33 PM
Its become a highly stressful touchy world in a short period of time and we all need to stick together one way or another.
It really has! I can't believe how different 2011 is from 2021
On the plus side, there is a few relatives that I haven't had to make up excesses not to visit for a year or so :D :)
Now that you mention it, I do have a slight headache. I wondered what caused it. :) Thanks, @Ianab (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=460) 8) 8) 8)
Just something i noticed in severe Rheumatoid Arthritis whenever my father in law got a bad cold the arthritis seemed to go into remission .My older brother was the same and so is my younger sister its as if the immune system is too busy with the cold to attack the joints???????
I will see if that is a known thing. I do not take care of enough RA but will check with a rheumatologist.
Quote from: doctorb on December 14, 2021, 09:07:28 AM
So the immune system is just like being an offensive lineman. :) You hear a lot more about it when something goes wrong than when things go right. We don't yet know how to measure "right" as it pertains to immunity.
I self-inject an allergy serum weekly that's provided by my allergy doctors office. I've been asked, even by some medical professionals in a manner as if-"did the shots cured me"? The reality as I understand it, is to bolster my immune system and help keep things from worsening-in my exposures to those pollens, molds, dusts and such that are my allergens.
Your earlier post, as this one, nailed it IMO. Part of aging in my case, not stuff that ever bothered me in most of my life.
I'll add that I have had much exposure to dirt, dust and other nasty stuff in my life. As I look back I wonder how my body came out as well as it did? I can remember being up near the top of many alfalfa bales near the roof and choking on dust and easily over a hundred degrees outside, yet here I am to tell that story. Soil dust, tire manufacturing crud such as carbon black and auto body solvents and dusts, wood shop dusts- mostly that tells me our bodies having an amazing ability to endure and survive.
My current allergy doc did the similar range of prick your arm tests that my first allergy doc performed. Interestingly a few allergies that came with the earlier test, didn't show up in the 2nd one. The most glaring was corn which is not shown by my more recent test. per my first allergy docs explanation, corn is a serious allergy as it's found in nearly all processed foods. I doubt I was "cured" of a corn allergy by the serums he provided back when. They say those tests are very reliable.
so, allergy shots are a form of immuno-modulation, it actually can "wear out" the reaction to certain things that cause you grief on an intermittent basis. you can have a life-threatening allergy to PCN (very rare, and over assumed) and with frequent (every 15 minutes) very small doses (parts per million) desensitize a person to that allergen. We did this for a "lady" with syphilis in residency. it took a week to get her to therapeutic doses, was in ICU the whole time, then got a course of pcn. after it was done, she would again be very allergic to pcn. Dust, Mold, pollen can be done more slowly and last longer (over years). it is a fine line between what the immune system needs to destroy and what it needs to ignore. combine that with different genetics, living in various parts of the world and occupations. it is a crap shoot
Wife and myself have had the 3rd dose of the Pfizer vaccine. Kids all booked for their 3rd and grandson has first. He kinda shocked us all. He was in for the Covid shot and the nurse asked if he wanted the flu shot too. He said yes and the gal asked his dad if it was ok and dad said yes. She said OK we will book you in for friday for flu. He looks at her and says " I got 2 arms. Why cant you do em both now? she looked at dad and dad said it his choice. so he got them both on the same appointment. The gal did make him wait 30 minutes between them.
When we did face time that evening I asked if his arms were sore and he said yea a bit but no worse than playing road hockey all day.
Immmuno-modulation. Let me bore your with my brother's story.....
He was a 22 year old working for a company taking care of a large private/public garden and got stung by a bee. Had an anaphylactic reaction, was rushed to the ER, and was given epinephrine. So....he recovered fine but then knew he was allergic to bees. He was given epinephrine to carry with him and he continued to work in horticulture. A new program from John's Hopkins was started soon after that. Previous attempts at immune-modulation for bee allergies consisted of grinding up bees (literally) and injecting a small amount subcutaneously. They would weekly increase the dose of the bee mush to try and desensitize one's immune system to bees. Problem was, they were also injecting all the different chemicals and molecules that make up the entire bee! And people got allergic to all that other stuff that should never have been given to patients. So desensitization in the old days made you sensitive to a whole bunch of things that had nothing to do with bee stings, and often did not desensitize the person to bee stings.
Along came this Hopkins program, which my brother joined, where they had learned to isolate the venom present in the bee sting. So they diluted it greatly and kept giving smaller and smaller doses until the patients had no reaction. They then increased the dosage repeatedly over time, and his immune system learned not to react so much. He became desensitized to bee stings. My brother was one of the first people in the country to go through this program. He still works in horticulture. He has been stung from time to time, and has never had any major reaction to the stings.
A statement was made by Dr. Peter McCullough in his interview with Joe Rogan that getting Covid-19 is a one and done experience. He claims that no one has been officially documented to have contracted the virus more than once. When Joe Rogan protested, Dr. McCullough said that perhaps some people thought they had contracted the virus more than once because in the early days of testing the PCR test was unable to distinguish between Covid-19 and other corona viruses like the cold and flu plus because they amplify the test so many times that people can test positive repeatedly from a single infection.
So I checked the CDC website and they claim you can contract the virus more than once but they admit it is extremely rare. So it seems like this Omicron strain may be the death of this virus like some experts are now claiming because as it spreads rapidly as a mild infection its going to quickly run out of vulnerable victims.
Any thoughts on this idea? It seems like this is saying the vaccines may not protect you as much as actually getting the virus because there are breakthrough cases with vaccinated people. Is getting the virus going to be the only one and done protection?
Yeah, a natural immune response has more than one target, the mRNA's have only one, the spike protein. With Omicron looking way less severe than Delta even if highly infectious. In south Africa no massive hospitalizations at all, just a few hundred out of 60M people and 5 thousand plus testing positive in hospital as part of admittance who are not sick from it at all, they are in for something entirely different. 25% vaccination rate. ~27,000 positive tests (98% Omicron), 32% of tests are positive, 24 deaths (10 x less deaths than Delta), cases are peaking quickly but also looking like rapid decreasing in certain regions. T-cell immunity response preserved in both natural infection and vaccine says SA doctors, reduces hospitalizations. 40% reinfection rate with Omicron. Says a great deal to me, there is no need for wait and see. Already see it.
I hope omicron is less severe and the whole thing comes to an end by summer.
That being said, I'm still getting a booster after Christmas. Delta is still dominant over here. It's still ironic, with 100,000's of tests, less than 4% positive and been even lower than that, like 1.2% for months. But looking at SA, that positive test rate will spike with omicron.
News coverage has been a muddled mess full of errors.
the vaccine does seem to decrease the severity, and many think it does prevent infection in immunized people. we do not know for sure. imagine how you would do that controlled study. divide 100K people into shot and not shot. squirt virus up their noses and seclude them for two weeks and test them daily to see who gets + and if so, how sick do they get. how many in each group die? In general, natural infection is better. If something will kill you before you can mount a response, or permanently injure you, that is why we have a vaccine. If it only causes an upper respiratory infection (cold) then we do not need the vaccine. and yes, it my spread quickly, injury few, and be done, at least for this season, like influenzae. we have seen corona viral infections in kids for years.
Doc, I bet that study could be done(smaller scale of course, maybe 10k) if the payouts were there, probably wouldn’t need to be that much either since a lot of people are paycheck to paycheck
i bet people would volunteer, but there are ethical concerns as well. so, we look retrospective, and that is part of why we keep adjusting out opinion of the virus.
I would bet that data from the real world study is already known. The CDC already knows about everyone infected from reporting from testing centers and that data is also being sent to the Johns Hopkins Scoreboard. That must be how the CDC and FDA knows the efficiency of individual vaccines along with the numbers of unvaccinated vs. vaccinated that are infected. Surely they also know if the previously infected are being reinfected.
Gary-
I have one concern with your description of data gathering....home Covid tests. Many people use them to try and rule out an infection. If you don't have symptoms, they are less accurate than if you do. But many people, including myself back in August, diagnose Covid with one of these rapid antigen tests. That positive test was not reported to anybody. The only reason that my infection eventually made it to the "numbers" is that I needed a PCR test to enter Canada a month later, which was still positive.
So the number of infections has to be somewhat under-reported going into the future, as more and more of these at home tests are being used. I have no idea how to quantitate that number.
My thought is why bother with a rapid test if one has no intention to report it for follow up. Here, in NB a positive result is reported and then you have to get a PCR. I think they are putting them out more here now than ever before because of possible exposures being reported from social gatherings. They were not used much at home testing here in NB because they never had any amount to distribute. Some places still can run out of stock quickly here according to the public health website.
Swamp-
I was interested in how Canada handled "instant" testing, and looked into it when I was in Ontario in October. I don't know if all provinces are handling it the same.
My recollection is that you had to register through the pharmacy website to obtain an at-home test. And there is a planned process for recording the results. Much different than in the States, where you just purchase a box, walkout, and test yourself in your kitchen. The is no requested optional reporting system associated with these tests here, unlike north of the border. As in many things, you are ahead of us.
Hi DocB, I deleted a couple posts I recently made today because I could not confirm from the public health site whether the positive rapid tests were 'case counted', or only if confirmed through PCR. I would assume from confirmed PCR, but that may be too logical. :D I do know positive rapid test triggers a PCR test to follow up.
Here's the site.
COVID-19 Testing (https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/corporate/promo/covid-19/about-covid-19/testing-tracing.html)
They sent rapid tests home with my grandchildren for Christmas Holidays and others in the school system. My daughter says they ask you to test every 4 days and report a positive test. The teachers were not allowed to take any tests home with them. :-\. The school board also told the the children to take all thier stuff home over the holiday's, just in case they lock us down again.
Quote from: doctorb on December 17, 2021, 11:16:14 AM
So the number of infections has to be somewhat under-reported going into the future, as more and more of these at home tests are being used. I have no idea how to quantitate that number.
I would guess the number of home tests in comparison to the lab or PCR tests would be a tiny fraction. Plus I would guess the percentage of positive home tests as well as the total numbers are well known but that of course is but a guess. There is not much transparency in the numbers these days.
But it is not a guess that the known and accepted fact of near zero reinfections is a strong endorsement of the value of natural immunity over vaccine immunity where there are "breakthrough infections" plus the natural immunity does seem to last indefinitely.
My wife brought home the original strain just after the guys were in the plastic tents in Nebraska (February? 2020). She was traveling for work at the time. Have to say, I am some glad we got it back then, have been around it plenty since and neither of us have been sick at all, the natural immunity we have appears to still be working nearly two years later.
There's definitely cases of reinfection from natural immunity, but rare case. Which is a good thing, being rare. It's documented despite some people saying otherwise. Funny they are in studies before vaccine roll out. ::) But consider that infection at all has been at a pretty low rate, shown in the testing, 2 -3 % shown in the tests. Looks low to me. But Omicron is showing 32% infection incidence from the testing in SA. So hopefully reinfection does remain rare. We'll know better from countries doing a lot more testing then we are over here in NA. The UK does 790,000 tests a day and Denmark is way higher with tests
I've fact checked Dr McCullough, and he likes to leave out pieces of the story. Such as no mention of younger folks with side affects from COVID, and no vaccine. A video I showed earlier in this thread of young adults suffering after COVID was before vaccine roll out. Organ and cardio damage is well documented from COVID, not vaccine induced. But, rare again. Takes Dr McCullough 20 minutes down the long path to admit they are rare side affects from vaccines. The larger the sample size the higher the number of incidence. That's just the way it works. 0.011% severe side affects from vaccines is pretty rare. You'll hear stories of not being taken seriously and not being reported, yet we have a system to report it. I'm left wondering if someone is lazy to fill out the report or the rest of the story might be that there is no fix for what they have. So then it becomes a story about not taking it serious. Anyone's guess. ::) I know you'll hear those stories every day long before COVID.
Everyone stay safe and healthy. :)
Oh and we are 'not required' to show vaccine status when getting groceries despite what you may have read or heard. Just saying because of 'disinformation dissemination'. ;)
Level 1
Open with physical distancing of two metres. Business / retail that do not sell groceries can require proof of full vaccination for patrons 12 and older.
Read it again in here.
COVID-19 alert system (https://www2.gnb.ca/content/gnb/en/corporate/promo/covid-19/alert-system.html)
Let's define reinfection (Canadian Medical Association):
In Canada, reinfection is defined as infection with a SARS-CoV-2 virus that is genetically distinct from the virus that caused the initial infection. Why??? Because two positive tests, even separated in time, may not indicate true reinfection.
https://boldly.cma.ca/blog/sars-cov-2-reinfection
We have decided to postpone our traditional Christmas Eve family get-together since 3 of my great nieces have tested positive although not overly sick. Bummer!
Quote from: doctorb on December 15, 2021, 05:06:27 PM
Immmuno-modulation. Let me bore your with my brother's story.....
He was a 22 year old working for a company taking care of a large private/public garden and got stung by a bee. Had an anaphylactic reaction, was rushed to the ER, and was given epinephrine. So....he recovered fine but then knew he was allergic to bees. He was given epinephrine to carry with him and he continued to work in horticulture. A new program from John's Hopkins was started soon after that. Previous attempts at immune-modulation for bee allergies consisted of grinding up bees (literally) and injecting a small amount subcutaneously. They would weekly increase the dose of the bee mush to try and desensitize one's immune system to bees. Problem was, they were also injecting all the different chemicals and molecules that make up the entire bee! And people got allergic to all that other stuff that should never have been given to patients. So desensitization in the old days made you sensitive to a whole bunch of things that had nothing to do with bee stings, and often did not desensitize the person to bee stings.
Along came this Hopkins program, which my brother joined, where they had learned to isolate the venom present in the bee sting. So they diluted it greatly and kept giving smaller and smaller doses until the patients had no reaction. They then increased the dosage repeatedly over time, and his immune system learned not to react so much. He became desensitized to bee stings. My brother was one of the first people in the country to go through this program. He still works in horticulture. He has been stung from time to time, and has never had any major reaction to the stings.
When I ran a juvy treatment program (late 1980's) we got a high prevalence of insect allergic juvy kids. FWIW, every kid I got came with a LARGE case history, and much medical this and that. The first task I had (though not required by regs) was to take them to a local doc and have them gone over and eliminate or change any meds as logical. We made our own decisions on anything toward behavior alteration as we wanted to see the real kid not one modified by this or that med. Often foster placements had resulted in poor Rx decisions-ADD was often over diagnosed as were several other behavior aspects. One thing we never changed was the epipens and many had to have them.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 15, 2021, 10:14:39 AM
so, allergy shots are a form of immuno-modulation, it actually can "wear out" the reaction to certain things that cause you grief on an intermittent basis. you can have a life-threatening allergy to PCN (very rare, and over assumed) and with frequent (every 15 minutes) very small doses (parts per million) desensitize a person to that allergen. We did this for a "lady" with syphilis in residency. it took a week to get her to therapeutic doses, was in ICU the whole time, then got a course of pcn. after it was done, she would again be very allergic to pcn. Dust, Mold, pollen can be done more slowly and last longer (over years). it is a fine line between what the immune system needs to destroy and what it needs to ignore. combine that with different genetics, living in various parts of the world and occupations. it is a crap shoot
My first allergy doc was an ENT guy, older very large practice-and an extremely interesting man! He was from Wales and immigrated his young family here years ago, his daughter now has his practice. When I was doing allergy shots with him, I went in his office. He told me after two years I was at the point to stop those shots. Some years later I was told of a new closer allergy doc and went in to see him. He's also interesting too as he immigrated from Greece. I've been self-injecting those shots for way longer than the two years as my first allergy doc provided?
BTW, mine is NOT syphillis!!!
Regarding covid testing- I listened to a reasonable MD last nites TV news and she was saying that when she gets a patient they don't know which covid variant they might have based on the common tests given.
That causes me to ask this question:
As we are hearing lots about how many people- in large numbers, that have omicron, etc., and since the regular tests don't differentiate which variant, how do they come up with all these variant figures? Is it a derived per centage? ???
They know which from gene sequencing of PCR tests. They don't know from a rapid test. And they don't know if they are not gene sequencing PCR's.
Now see how the message you got was a muddled up mess? :D
Gene sequencing is done on a sampling of the total tests, (SD is correct in that all tests cannot have this secondary speciation performed) so you get a percentage of one variant out of the total number of sequencings performed. They certainly are not sequencing every test, and the number of sequencings performed varies from place to place.
DoctorB,
Do you have any idea how long it takes to run the Gene sequencing test?
Ron
The answer is no, I have no idea of the actual process. So I went to the web and found a much larger spectrum of genetic sequencing tests available than I had bargained for. It's actually a little confusing. From my quick evaluation (which is short for "Don't hold me to this!") I think it takes about 24 hours for genetic sequencing for Covid.
I think there is a change in the Omicron that shows up in one of the PCR tests. It comes up with one of the factors they test for missing, but the other 3 are positive. I dont think it's 100 %, but it gives a quick result. The full genetic test is more complicated and takes overnight.
Quote from: Ianab on December 18, 2021, 03:04:12 PM
I think there is a change in the Omicron that shows up in one of the PCR tests.
From what I have read, S-gene drop out is the one of the three that provides the result is indicative of omicron variant. Not completely definitive but a good early indicator.
Sequencing is of course the gold standard but it's typically only applied to a portion of overall samples and statistically projected on overall case population.
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-covid-19-and-medical-devices/sars-cov-2-viral-mutations-impact-covid-19-tests#detection-patterns (https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-covid-19-and-medical-devices/sars-cov-2-viral-mutations-impact-covid-19-tests#detection-patterns)
Those sampling and testing the sewage systems in large municipal areas is also an interesting and probably better indicator of overall community spread. Very interesting new application of science!
Quote from: HemlockKing on December 17, 2021, 07:26:01 AM
Doc, I bet that study could be done(smaller scale of course, maybe 10k) if the payouts were there, probably wouldn't need to be that much either since a lot of people are paycheck to paycheck
Like an extra hamburger while living large on death row? Do they still experiment with prison volunteers? I volunteered for an early covid-19 vaccine study but they never contacted me.
The practicing docs I see on TV-say they are not concerned about which version you have as they treat your symptoms. I guess that comes later if need be?
Actually yes, that's a good idea lol . hamburger on death row
research on prisoners and mentally interred was done in the past and is deemed unethical. if they volunteer in a prison, it is still not a "randomized" trial on a cross section of the population. It is also why it is hard to study drugs in kids. parents could sign them up, but then what parents want their kid trying a new experimental drug. End of life, nothing left to lose is an exception like in cancer treatment.
I watched a documentary about the first child to survive rabies using a hypothermia technique used in others to protect the brain after other major illness. she survived, is married with kids, and remaining disability is apparent only to those who know her well.
Just wanted to say a GREAT BIG THANK YOU to doc henderson and doctorB for providing such a clear look at "just the facts" A big help in managing the stressful situation I find myself in. Wife and I have both had 3 shots of maderna and we stay isolated on the family farm as much as possible, but the deck is kinda stacked. 85 years old, heart problems, border line diabetes, brain damage, blood thinner, thyroid issues, severe paralysis from stroke, others.
Also I highly recommend John Campbell's You Tube channel, for more Facts.
Merry Christmas Pineywoods to you and your family.
Yes, Dr. Campbell has been around doing videos on health care for far longer than his Youtube channel. smiley_thumbsup
Take care.
I got my booster today, but no ill effects do far. got it at Walmart and given by the mean ol pharmacist there (my wife Georgia). no pain at the site, but that does not mean I will not play it up when my wife gets home. thanks Piney
For New Brunswick residents, you create an account and can access your vaccination records online here:
https://myhealth.gnb.ca
For your access code, look at the FAQ page which shows the format used and look at your paper copy from the place you were vaccinated for the date of your latest shot.
Very simple stuff.
still ok. biggest pain will be pulling the band aid off my hairy arm. :o 8) :D
Band aid burn! :D
Wife and I got the Moderna booster last Monday. Just a sore arm and fatigue the next day
Came out from Moderna in todays news that their booster is showing effectiveness against the omicron virus.
YEA!
They all are for a short term boost. You're upping the antibodies around 40fold. It will fade but hopefully will allow this wave to wash through while you're still all buff.
I just got a booster at lunch, hopefully it won't conflict or be killed by doxy, I pulled a embedded tick this morning and took 2 as a precaution.
I got a booster and was thinking I'd feel something as the second vac gave me a quick 24 hour flu like systems. But booster didn't seem to cause any, just kept on trucking like normal. 8)
Dr Campbell's recent video was discussing research into Omicron, and how it was more attracted to bronchial tissue (the larger airways leading into the lungs) than normal Covid, and less infectious in the actual lung tissue. This was a mixed blessing, as the infection in the bronchial tubes is less serious, as it's not causing the pneumonia that puts people in hospital with low oxygen levels etc. But more virus particles can be breathed out, which adds to it's more infectious nature.
Patients might still fell like mud because it's a viral infection, so fever, aches, fatigue etc, but less of the serious lung damage from the earlier variants. That explains the "less severe symptoms" being reported from Sth Africa, as not needing hospital care counts as "mild". Less hospital cases however might be offset by the higher number of infected people. Being 10X less likely to put you in hospital is good, but 10X the number of cases kinda puts hospitals back to the same level.
NZ Govt is considering bringing the booster shots forward from the current 6 months as it's inevitable that Omicron will get loose here sometime in the near future.
i got Pfizer, and Moderna is touting the advantage, but it may just be the study that was done. antibiotics should not effect the vaccine or the virus.
My wife and I took the booster jab yesterday, at roughly the six month mark after the second vaccine shot.
Both of us had a busy day today and a slightly sore shoulder. Nothing to moan about.The incidence of Omicron is still small here, but we expect the same full frontal assault on the health care system by next month.
Members in the extended family have dropped travel plans and some others have stayed the course and, if the borders are still open, head out to the airport.
Real risk, or perceived risk; everybody has an opinion. 🤔
I hope the omicron is less virulent. more like a cold I hope.
I am going to share my family's actual experience when my youngest granddaughter was diagnosed with Covid.
My son's family includes six people, two adults and four children. The Covid girl is 11 and has a brother that is type 1 diabetic and recently diagnosed with Crohns. She has an older sister that we call "allergic to life" because she has allergic reactions that manifest mostly in her breathing and has asthma.
When the first symptoms were noticed in Covid girl, I told my son that I had seen a doctor on Joe Rogan named Dr. McCullough and that he had recommended that anyone exposed to Covid should nightly use 2 teaspoons of hydrogen peroxide mixed in six ounces of water and use a nasal syringe (or netti pot) and blow up each nostril until it ran down their throat and spit it out. Then he instructed that what was left of the peroxide solution should be gargled and swished and spit out.
Covid girls quarantine ended yesterday and the entire family made it without getting sick. They are on their way to Florida to Christmas vacation with their Mom-mom.
Just my facts and I shudder to think what might have happened if a comedian hadn't interviewed a doctor. TREATMENT and PREVENTION are what we need.
Yes it is. Glad everyone is well and having Christmas in Fl. :)
Rhonda and I got boosted yesterday (moderna) no side effects .
My wife ran into the county EMS head on Wed. I had no idea, as in where's the grapevine when you need it. We have more current cases than up until now combined. I think we're still cooking delta at the moment but that will probably change in the next week or two to both.
I got the booster, felt a little puny but smashed my finger adjusting the forks. Works every time.
Roxie I'm glad everyone is recovering especially the kids. Stay safe.
we are seeing a ton of influenzae A, and adenovirus. as well covid, D. My friend Greg from child just lost his 57 y/o baby sister yesterday morning on a vent with covid. His mother (my den leader at age 5 and a favorite substitute teacher) is 82 or so. very hard for her. Roxie glad the kids are ok.
The NIH does confirm that hydrogen peroxide is effective in eliminating Covid.
Here's their conclusion:
We therefore hypothesize that nose and mouth washing with hydrogen peroxide may enhance those local innate responses to viral infections and help protect against viral infections, including the current coronavirus pandemic.
Moreover, a hydrogen peroxide solution of a concentration as little as 0.5% efficiently inactivates coronaviruses (e.g. SARS, MERS) on inanimate surfaces within 1 min [22] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7262503/#b0110). This may justify the use of hydrogen peroxide washes in infected people too: the solution may decrease the viral load of their respiratory droplets, hence help tackle the spread in the community.
Merry Christmas to all. Stay safe.
Doctorb
doctorb: thank you for all your efforts and knowledge imparted on this thread.
And a very Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!
"God bless us everyone"! Tiny Tim
Bah! Humbug! :D
four rooms in a row waiting to go upstairs or to Icu. another 3 in the other parts of the ED are + and will go home. all unimmunized.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/5300925C-A5FE-4369-8596-0BDFCAAF66BD.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1640382154)
almost every room full since I got here at 7 am. busy busy.
Quote from: Roxie on December 24, 2021, 12:29:08 PM
The NIH does confirm that hydrogen peroxide is effective in eliminating Covid.
Here's their conclusion:
We therefore hypothesize that nose and mouth washing with hydrogen peroxide may enhance those local innate responses to viral infections and help protect against viral infections, including the current coronavirus pandemic.
Moreover, a hydrogen peroxide solution of a concentration as little as 0.5% efficiently inactivates coronaviruses (e.g. SARS, MERS) on inanimate surfaces within 1 min [22] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7262503/#b0110). This may justify the use of hydrogen peroxide washes in infected people too: the solution may decrease the viral load of their respiratory droplets, hence help tackle the spread in the community.
This quote is from Roxie in another thread regarding the NIH on peroxide the and worth sharing here.
QuoteThe NIH did conclude that it worked so why now that we are two years into this pandemic is the only way that I learned of this on Joe Rogan's show on this past December 13th with Dr. McCullough? The only thing my granddaughter's doctor recommended was Tylenol for fever. Nothing for prevention of spreading it to other family members. I think the government and doctors want these people to die. That's why we have 800,939 dead. This isn't a pandemic of the unvaccinated, this is a pandemic of government genocide assisted by pharmaceutical and medical professionals.
Doc,
It's too bad the powers that be and the medical community weren't more proactive in promoting treatments like this as well as the many other treatments instead of threatments.
We had a good break from blaming the unvaccinated but I guess we can continue in a healthy debate again.
Do you think that treatments like the peroxide may have helped these unvaccinated types from clogging up the hospitals?
If the gene therapy nonexistent, how would you treat your patients or is it really the only option?
We just came in from Christmas Eve dinner tonight and this Doc was among the guests. I didn't get a chance to talk to him but will in the near future.
Canadian Doctor Defies Gag Order and Tells the Public How the Moderna COVID Injections Killed and Permanently Disabled Indigenous People in His Community (healthimpactnews.com) (https://healthimpactnews.com/2021/canadian-doctor-defies-gag-order-and-tells-the-public-how-the-moderna-covid-injections-killed-and-permanently-disabled-indigenous-people-in-his-community/)
Quote from: Paul_H on December 24, 2021, 11:12:07 PMDo you think that treatments like the peroxide may have helped these unvaccinated types from clogging up the hospitals?
If we can't persuade people that wearing a face mask may cut down the chances of transmitting the virus, how are they going to sell snorting dilute peroxide?
Look I get the idea that peroxide would destroy the virus (and most any organic material) on contact, so I can see how the idea has some logic. How effective is it? Are there any side effects? Has anyone done any research to see if it really does any good?
Until someone has done that sort of research, any Dr that tries that sort of treatment is using YOU as the guinea pig. Now if you signed up for a new vaccine or drug trial, then you know this. But that's what proves drugs are safe / effective.
Quote from: Ianab on December 25, 2021, 12:00:28 AMHow effective is it? Are there any side effects? Has anyone done any research to see if it really does any good?
Until someone has done that sort of research, any Dr that tries that sort of treatment is using YOU as the guinea pig. Now if you signed up for a new vaccine or drug trial, then you know this. But that's what proves drugs are safe / effective.
Yes, it was researched here by sifting 2,119 medical papers relating to hydrogen peroxide and virus from 2 databases.
Hydrogen peroxide and viral infections: A literature review with research hypothesis definition in relation to the current covid-19 pandemic (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7262503/#b0110)
If its okay for the overlords to play guinea pig with the whole world who havent signed up for a drug trial, then people should feel free to play it with themselves.
Hydrogen peroxide has been in toothpaste for ages. Whats it gonna hurt anyone to gargle it? How long were these vaccines trialed before shooting them into unwanting subjects?
Ian,
you did see that the NIH says peroxide is effective and Roxie's point is there were Doctors that prescribe it but it took Joe Rogan to get it out there. The medical community can face discipline if they speak their mind as shown in Dr Hoff's article shown above where he wrote the health Minister privately and they responded publicly.
Now the reason why we stopped talking about unvaccinated here was because in order to defend their position, the ones that want to decline must list their reasons which may include Constitutional or faith reasons (conscientious objections) anti tyranny, government over reach, medical autonomy and the Nuremberg Code which is why I was surprised it was brought up again so soon.
I have read the overview posted above as well as an NIH post I added to the other thread after Roxie's post. Here it is for others to absorb:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7262503/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7262503/)
My reaction to all comments is to try and temper the weight of evidence from such investigations and overviews. None of these studies really look at Covid. They don't investigate the prevention of Covid infection in non-infected individuals, nor do they study the treatment of Covid in infected patients.
Many of the recent comments on this thread treat this information as being 1) an absolutely true revelation and 2) it being withheld from the public or only released by circumferential means due to the influence of some egghead or governmental oversight, at the detriment of the general public. Without starting a firestorm, I disagree with that perspective.
The NIH study says that hydrogen peroxide "MAY" inhibit or prevent disease in the nasopharynx. The other is a hypothesis regarding Covid and H2O2. There is no evidence presented that it helps any bronchial or lung infection or prevention. A lot of this "beauty" is in the eyes of the beholder. If you strongly believe that there is a grocery store agent that could have prevented infections and deaths related to Covid, then this topic will fuel strong debate. From a scientific point of view....this should be further studied for better and more accurate information. We have the published lab information and a hypothesis, not medical data and proof. This should not be taken as a hidden and suppressed cure which has been withheld from view for population control or monetary reasons. This should be accepted as a possible medical advance, which deserves confirmation. This is what science demands...questioning, requestioning, investigation, repeat investigation, confirmation, and a change in therapy based on observation via the scientific method. On this specific topic, we are not yet at that point.
Quote from: Paul_H on December 24, 2021, 11:12:07 PMWe therefore hypothesize that nose and mouth washing with hydrogen peroxide may enhance those local innate responses to viral infections
Hypothesis and "may"...
Hey, maybe that hypothesis is right? I don't know, and neither do the NIH. No actual data. I'm can quite believe a nasal rinse might be beneficial, from my surfing days where involuntary saline sinus rinses were just part of the fun. Didn't get bothered by colds very much.
I just don't think it's some magic cure. (another one...)
We've been doing things here in NZ that HAVE worked so far. Start with the basics.
The virus can't spread itself, people have to spread it. Knowing that, outbreaks of the original have been eliminated, without any vaccine. Just following good infection avoidance techniques. Most of the last 2 years we have been under minimal restrictions. Delta has been more tricky, but with over 90% vaccinated it's not spreading out of control, in spite of now only minimal restrictions again.
Doc H is on the front line seeing the unvaccinated turning up every day needing ICU level care
Sometimes one can't see the forest for the trees
That Dr fella is the same one who took 20 minutes down the long path to admit that side effects from vaccines were very rare (which is backed up by weekly data), plus he was hesitant to admit to COVID side effects. He claimed no reinfections. Ever see the definition of reinfection? You have to be infected by a different variant, getting reinfected by the same one don't count because they can't possibly prove it because the test can not distinguish it, only if a different variant. Be careful who you follow. And what was the infection rate to begin with (via test results)? << 2%. With omicron it's looking like 35%. I don't believe in contrived conspiracies, they rear their heads all the time based on partial factoids, many drawn from unrelated circumstances and mismashed into a 'story'. And believe me media screw up a lot, and they don't care if it's accurate any more.
Mother has used saline for colds many times, a lot of hers isn't colds it's irritation from snoring. We'll keep that to ourselves. :D
In Australia the Prime Minister a few days ago announced no mandates.
Yes, we are required to follow the dogma of:
Slow the spread, flatten the curve and wait for the vaccine even if it has limited effectiveness.
If you test positive do not treat with home remedies or that cheap horse wormer, go home and spread the virus to your kin folks and don't come back till your lips turn blue.
Doctors that try alternative treatments and repurposed drugs (that work) are quacks and dangerous (to those in power). If their musings are published, they are to be immediately taken down and ignored.
What could possibly go wrong with that advice?
Well they could fire health care workers that won't comply with that advice and end up short staffed and over worked, sort of like those cities that defunded the police and were shocked that crime skyrocketed
"Hypotheses and may," also applies to these MRNA vaccines which are still only approved under emergency use. So the balance of risk vs reward falls heavily toward hydrogen peroxide use. As for testing the theory, it was the only preventive available for my son's family (thanks only to Joe Rogan and Dr McCullough) and the fact that the other five members didn't get infected seems encouraging. If it was only psychosomatic at least all six of the family members had a shared delusion.
Quote from: Ianab on December 25, 2021, 12:00:28 AM
sell snorting dilute peroxide?
I've been respectful, please return the favor.
Ian you question how to persuade people into trying the treatment Roxie mentioned and others like it, quite simple don't try and force folks into complying to the thought that it is the only option.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 25, 2021, 05:21:55 AMHe claimed no reinfections.
Yes, he did and he got pushback immediately from Joe Rogan. What I find disturbing is that as a society we seem to have lost our faith in each other to use our own discernment. Listening to another opinion is not bad or dangerous. Drowning out every opinion that doesn't align with our beliefs and thoughts is what is dangerous.
My own reaction when Dr McCullough said there hadn't been a single case of reinfection was pretty much just like Joe Rogan's. I routinely disagree with my family but I don't stop listening.
My beliefs and thoughts are guided by data. You'll see lots of my posts that reflect that. I'm not the type that 'wants to believe' because my mind is already made up. I don't roll that way. ;)
Quote from: doctorb on December 25, 2021, 02:00:51 AM
Many of the recent comments on this thread treat this information as being 1) an absolutely true revelation and 2) it being withheld from the public or only released by circumferential means due to the influence of some egghead or governmental oversight, at the detriment of the general public.
1. At no point have I or anyone else's comments stated that using hydrogen peroxide is a cure or an absolutely true revelation.
2. Since it was the only thing that could be attempted to protect the rest of my son's family, yep, I have to admit that I believe number 2.
yes, we had a nice break in beating each other up, and it should continue. how did I blame the unvaccinated? My point is that the vaccine is helpful in reducing the need for hospitalization, the monoclonal antibodies can stop progression. I am not blaming them, I do not promote mandates, but enough crap is out there making the vaccine sound worse than the disease. there are people that will die this week that may have not got as sick with covid. that is their choice. Yes, I was busy. Yes, I wish they felt comfortable getting the vaccine. we would not be overwhelmed with patients and as full, keeping very sick people in the ED, and therefore not able to see others who wait for hours in the waiting room. We have to send people home on oxygen, we would otherwise admit to the hospital. yes, I am tired after over a year of this. Peroxide kills many things including viruses. so does bleach, but let's not shoot that up our nose. Try to promote nasal irrigation and a portion of the community refuses it because they do not want it. It may lower viral load and reduce severity. Here we are. I did not bash the nasal irrigation. I believe in my professional opinion that the risk and benefit of the current therapies outweigh the risk.
It's a sad state of affairs when having a conversation is considered beating someone up.
My only reason for bringing it to the health and safety thread was my desire to possibly help someone who may find themselves in a similar situation.
If I have erred, my intentions were good.
I believe Roxie has every right to try nasal peroxide and promote it if she likes. I do not appreciate being accused of wanting genocide, and I make a standard hourly rate for work in the ED. Being busier means we need more help, and we cannot find any, nationwide problem. Yes, Doctors are held to a high standard, and are not supposed to prescribe untested agents to treat disease. Roxie gave the example of her family not getting/spreading it, and they used peroxide nasal wash. ok. another 100,000 people in a well-controlled trial and it gains credibility even more. I was sharing my day as evidence that the people who are still sick now are unvaccinated, and that has been the case for some time. I doubt that if I accept peroxide as a first line prevention, that it will change anyone's mind about the vaccine. Let's be respectful.
Roxie you were and are respectful. I am tired and do not withhold cheaper remedies in an effort to promote genocide. I think you will agree with that. That is my interpretation of what was said. I did not post my experience to start a fight.
I often promote, natural/grocery store/over the counter home remedies if I feel they are helpful and pose no risk. If you have cancer and another doc wants to send you to California to have your aura reprogramed by a computer, I will intervein.
I will say it again, same as I posted in the restricted thread. What Roxie posted was indeed factual. She posted where she gained the information, the fact the NIH concludes the basis is supported scientifically for the information, and she posted the results of 5 others not getting sick in a setting where they all should have according to the "science". Those facts deserve to be heard.
Masks simply don't work and it has been demonstrated again and again that is the case, but one very conflicted individual keeps pushing the security blanket and suddenly it's factual.
I also heard the other day that the jab "isn't killing people", well I have a few facts to counter that statement and the FDA paperwork released earlier this week confirms over 1,000 deaths, but again the only response being driven is the jab, which clearly fails against the Omicron.
The hospital post / photo from Doc was factual about the number of patients needing treatment, but it doesn't support the drive to only a jab solution. Frankly if the medical community didn't bow at the altar of political pressure and have a staffing shortage as a direct result then the patient service shortage would not be nearly the issue it is.
I do not bow to political pressure. Any agency getting fed. fund has to comply with gov. mandates (Medicare) or loose payment. Hospital cannot afford that. It is not bowing; it is staying afloat. The courts have tried to intervein, remember, this is not supposed to be political. I have spent the past year with my face 10 inches from dying patients with covid, sometime wearing only a surgical mask, and have not to my knowledge had coved. Nothing is perfect, but all together is helpful. We are trying to mitigate, keep the hospitals open, and as many people alive as possible. I have often said most effective medications have significant side effects. We could have tested vaccines for 10 years but may have lost many more. we are adapting as we go. Maybe Moderna cover Omicron better. maybe more risk in younger patients of auto immune heart disease. We have decided to learn as we go, and that is scary. To say it does not work is not accurate. I am sure there are side effects, and I do not know how many deaths are or will be attributed to the vaccine. In 10 years, we will know so much more. anyone who wants to accuse me of genocide or using this to make money, is welcome to send a PM. let's keep it out of this thread.
Brian, you know I am speaking about the hospital administration bowing down. As a doctor clearly you are a patient service provider who is paying the price for their decision to allow a staffing shortage.
There is no other way to express their actions.
Quote from: Roxie on December 25, 2021, 06:12:24 AM
Quote from: Ianab on December 25, 2021, 12:00:28 AM
sell snorting dilute peroxide?
I've been respectful, please return the favor.
In my youth peroxide was in more widespread use for topical purposes like abrasions. When we ran track years ago on cinders, peroxied and green soap were real common. I've been under the impression that it can be harmful to sensitive tissues and thus came into lesser use? Are not respiratory tract tissues very sensitive? But what do I know... ;D
Quote from: doc henderson on December 25, 2021, 09:13:54 AM
I am tired and do not withhold cheaper remedies in an effort to promote genocide. I think you will agree with that. That is my interpretation of what was said. I did not post my experience to start a fight.
There are thousands of Doctors and you or DrB were not who anybody had in mind when the offending quote was made and what Jim said about the medical community is accurate.
Dr Hoff that I mentioned served a small community for 28 years and knew his patients very well as a doctor and member of the small community and was well respected until the Gov and media smeared him because he spoke up. He has a right to be offended.
Jim I am your friend and I appreciate your perspective. Our hospital has declined to mandate anything, but if they lost all fed. dollars, then people over 65 would have to pay out of pocket and try to recoup from the Medicare program. The hospital was about to mandate vaccine so they would not lose all funding for over 65 y/o. but now not since it was originally overturned. So, I agree the government is controlling hospitals via funding, but again this is breaching into politics. Out admins openly oppose mandating vaccine. they have mandated masks in the facility. The nursing shortage is for several reasons, not just the mandate (as we do not have one here).
Doc B and Doc H I offer my sincere wish for a Merry Christmas and a a sincere thank you for all you do here and at home for all of us. There is a lot I know and could say but today is not the time for those discussions. Suffice it to say we are all victims of a disastrous pandemic response that mimics closely the previous failed HIV/AIDS pandemic that was also led by the self-declared God of Science Anthony Fauci who he himself believes is above reproach. Enough said.
Again a sincere thank you to the doc's and everyone here.
thanks Gary, and all other forum members. Merry Christmas!
A nasal wash probably does reduce the viral load but it will not eliminate it. And certainly won't do anything to a lung infection as a result of getting covid.
The response to the pandemic wasn't exactly a success. And the way the media tries so hard to link our vaccination status with our political choices is disgusting . But it doesn't have to be that way.
The choice to get vaccinated or not is a personal one - yes. However as with everything in life, our decisions have consequences. If you choose to not get the vaccine, your chances of ending up at the hospital greatly increase if you get covid. Your decision not only has personal consequences but impacts others around you. You end up clogging the healthcare systems delaying other procedures from taking place. To claim otherwise is simply hypocrisy.
And again, I cannot stress this enough, the vaccines work:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/Canada_COVID_Nov13.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1638700749)
The above was originally posted by swampdonkey but I feel it was simply dismissed by some. And one needs to have an explanation, a reckoning with the above posted evidence. If one can simply ignore the above infographic then what is the point of having a discussion.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Merry Christmas to everyone.
Again the reasons for not getting the gene therapy is a personal one and the discussion isn't one a lot of us would even be engaged in there wasn't the threats from of loss of jobs, freedom of movement or the ability to buy food(in some places)
All who choose the therapy the choice is yours and I wouldn't take it from you. Those that have chosen to decline becoming a lifetime customer of J&J and Pfizer also know the risks and choose to take another road.
Roxie-
I agree with your comments and I'm glad you posted the hydrogen peroxide lavage treatment. I'm further glad that you understand that your family's story is not confirmatory of that treatment one way or the other. Finally, I'm glad you're here. Merry Christmas everyone!
Quote from: Paul_H on December 25, 2021, 01:31:31 PM
Again the reasons for not getting the gene therapy is a personal one and the discussion isn't one a lot of us would even be engaged in there wasn't the threats from of loss of jobs, freedom of movement or the ability to buy food(in some places)
All who choose the therapy the choice is yours and I wouldn't take it from you. Those that have chosen to decline becoming a lifetime customer of J&J and Pfizer also know the risks and choose to take another road.
Thank you for replying. I do appreciate that we can have a discussion.
My response would firstly be how is the J&J vaccine any different than a the Hepatitis B, Diphtheria, Tetanus, Wooping cough, Polio, Pneumococcal disease, Rotavirus, etc to name a few vaccines all given to infants? They all to my knowledge deliver a weakened version of the virus.
Secondly, (and I am not targeting you personally, I again appreciate that you responded to my post), the risks you take personally in not getting vaccinated does not only affect you and only you. That was the point made by Mr. Doc Henderson earlier yesterday/today and in the second part of my last post. If I have a family member die because their spot in the ICU was taken by an unvaccinated individual, how should I react?
Freedom of mouvement, thought, speech do not include freedom from consequences. I sell products from my farm and my sawmill to customers regularly. If I tell one to take a hike when they insist on entering my sales area without a mask, they suffer the consequences of their choice which is not buying the thing that they want/need. And I suffer the consequences of my choice by not making a sale. But we both exercised our freedoms.
Yes, we have certainly weighed the consequences of our decision in exactly the same way we have chosen to live and work in dangerous situations in the past which is quietly, prayerfully, soberly and with resolve and determination.
What about the people who carry the virus and show no symptoms. Should they get the jab? Are the Covid carriers building up immunity. Let's hear it Doc
yes, and having had the disease should confer better protection in theory, but that has not been shown for sure but in one study. If you just had it, I would wait a bit, as it has been shown that the longevity is better with a space of time between. we will have to see data for breakthrough cases
Thanks Doc. My wife said thanks to your answer from her question
To be accurate, the Pfizer vaccine was fully approved a few months ago, moving it out of the Emergency Use Authorization category. This was for people 16 y.o. and up. I do not know if the Moderna vaccine has been similarly upgraded.
Dr B that is not accurate. The FDA approved Comirnaty, a product which is not available at all in the
US. There is not a single vial of it that you can get. The Pfizer product that is being administered is being done so under the EUA authorization.
Dr B is correct, that's just the new name for marketing.
" Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty (koe-mir'-na-tee), for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older. The vaccine also continues to be available under emergency use authorization (EUA), including for individuals 12 through 15 years of age and for the administration of a third dose in certain immunocompromised individuals."
see: https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine?s_cid=11700:is%20covid%20vaccine%20fda%20approved:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen:PTN:FY22 (https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine?s_cid=11700:is%20covid%20vaccine%20fda%20approved:sem.ga:p:RG:GM:gen:PTN:FY22)
Plesase show me where one can find this product.
I think that this is just semantics. The Pfizer vaccine is approved, and yes, it will be marketed under the Comirnaty name. However, it's the same Pfizer vaccine as previously distributed pre approval. I think companies are hesitant to attach any brand name to a product that's awaiting approval.
Maybe this will help.....
https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-are-pfizers-comirnaty-and-biontech-covid-19-vaccines-the-same-or-different (https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-are-pfizers-comirnaty-and-biontech-covid-19-vaccines-the-same-or-different)
The product Pfizer is distributing in the US is the one authorized under the EUA. You can not obtain a vial of the approved product. The EUA product falls under the zero liability umbrella passed by Congress. The approved and unavailable product does not enjoy the zero liability protection as it isn't an EUA use approval, rather a full approval, the same as the normal chain of any other approved product.
You say it's semantics. Why won't Pfizer distribute an approved product that carries civil liability if they are convinced it's safe and effective?
Why won't the FDA mandate the approved product be the one distributed now that they have approved it?
Wow! Christmas is almost over and the gloves are coming back on 😂. Interesting opinions and facts from everyone. Some valid and some not. Great to hear valuable information from the Docs. I appreciate everything you have contributed 👍. But when the line is drawn in the sand this kid is not getting the jab
I have no idea, and I have no way of answering your questions. The link I posted refers to them as legally distinct, but does not address that distinction. But what I said is true. The vaccine is approved and no longer under an EUA. There is no medical or chemical difference between the Pfizer vaccine products pre- and post-approval.
I could only imagine the old vials are grandfathered in until used or expired, when gone the newer vials are used. It's the same stuff. The 'difference' is that the old version is more concentrated and needed diluting before administering. There is no new 'mystery formula', no more than the current one. :D The 'new' version does not need diluting. That's the new 'mystery' I guess. ;) This ain't the first time stuff ever got grandfathered in. I have no doubt they have been paid for by tax money, so maybe we can just toss several $$millions out in the trash. They pretty much did that when the US sent expired vaccine to SA. Let them fill their land fills. :D
The only vaccine of the big 4 that is emergency use only in Canada is the Astrazenca one.
Here is one reason from a news letter on substack https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/heres-the-real-reason-comirnaty-is (https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/heres-the-real-reason-comirnaty-is) which I have no way of verifying either way. However, I have heard a similar story previously which I believe confirms this news letters validity. I also believe the CDC has confirmed that Comirnaty is not orderable in the US but also have no means to verify that either. Note this explanation explains why the Comirnaty version is currently not available in the US only because of a provision in US Federal Law. The approved product is readily available in other parts of the world.
The reason Comirnaty isn't available is because those shots would expose the company to liability since the fully-licensed product doesn't have the liability waiver of the EUA product.
But once the Pfizer vaccine is fully approved in kids, then Pfizer gets liability waiver on all age groups due to a "feature" in federal law for child vaccines (NCVIA). At that time, they are done. They can market the COVID vaccine products under full approval for all age groups and face no liability when it kills or disables you.
This is why they are focused on the kids. This is why there is a reformulation at a 1/3 dose and they changed the buffer and the storage conditions (low temperatures not required). All of these will weaken the protection, but result in a safer vaccine (since it is ineffective).
But for the clinical trials on the 5-11 year olds, they did not use the formulation they approved in the meeting. This is known as bait and switch. So they used a more effective vaccine to show efficacy (in the trials they completed), then they get the FDA to approve the drug but with a change in formulation, then the product product with the new buffer will go out to the public with the lower efficacy, but better safety. This is because they don't want to jeopardize any adverse events happening until they are fully approved. So they basically use formula 1 for safety, get approval for formula 2 (safer, less effective), then roll out formula 2 under EUA.
They also arrange with the FDA and CDC to make sure no early treatment drugs get approved or recommended. This is why there is no movement on fluvoxamine, ivermectin, etc. since that would blow the EUA. Fluvoxamine is the best drug ever for COVID with a mortality reduction of 12X when taken early. It's the best drug to date for COVID, but the CDC and NIH are deliberately burying it until the vaccines are fully approved. Then they'll say, "ok, we have all the data."
So at the end, Pfizer gets a fully approved vaccine with full liability protection. At that time, then the NIH can recognize other treatments.
This is how it is wired to go. Let's be honest about it.
This is why nobody wants to debate our team about what is going on.
Here's is a statement from European Medicines Agency.
"ready-to-use formulation of Comirnaty. This formulation does not require dilution prior to administration, will be available in a 10-vial (60 dose) pack size and can be stored at 2-8°C for up to 10 weeks. The current concentrated formulation requires dilution prior to administration, is available in a 195-vial (1,170 dose) pack size and can be stored at 2-8°C for up to one month).
These differences will provide improved storage, transport and logistic options for vaccine distribution and administration. The new formulation will be available in a phased rollout starting in early 2022."
New manufacturing sites and new formulation approved for COVID-19 vaccine from BioNTech/Pfizer | European Medicines Agency (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/new-manufacturing-sites-new-formulation-approved-covid-19-vaccine-biontech-pfizer)
Yet the nonsense keeps on spewing. ::)
And if the need arises, many countries have governments that can cancel out any protections. That happened to a natural gas distributor here, that tied the government into a contract that turned out was no good. They also added to that, that the government could not be sued over it.
This topic was left because it was supposed to be helpful. A place to seek info that if not for comfort of some sort, maybe a bit of understanding. Who the hell is it helpful to at this point? Anyone? We have two good men that take their time away from other things they could be doing to try and accomplish this.
All it is now is a combative cluster to those coming to it for the first time.
I find this to be the best place to get information on the (*) from. THANK YOU to everyone for the information.
SE
There has always been a greater good about the Forestry Forum. As members, frequent guests, or admins, you all know that. While there are islands in this topic where that exists, it's getting to far to swim between them. If we keep it up, we all drown.
Quote from: Gary_C on December 26, 2021, 07:21:55 AM
Here is one reason from a news letter on substack https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/heres-the-real-reason-comirnaty-is (https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/heres-the-real-reason-comirnaty-is) which I have no way of verifying either way. However, I have heard a similar story previously which I believe confirms this news letters validity. I also believe the CDC has confirmed that Comirnaty is not orderable in the US but also have no means to verify that either. Note this explanation explains why the Comirnaty version is currently not available in the US only because of a provision in US Federal Law. The approved product is readily available in other parts of the world.
Gary, while you do state you have no way of verifying, and I also support considering all views and their supporting data behind them, there is significate resources available regarding Steve Kirsch.
It may be worth pursing the following when considering his views in some context.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/10/05/1036408/silicon-valley-millionaire-steve-kirsch-covid-vaccine-misinformation/
Home | Covid-19 Data Science (https://www.covid-datascience.com/)
Regardless of information that agrees or disagrees with any particular view, spending time to the extend possible considering the not only the veracity of the source, but also how also the source is viewed by others with the type of knowledge or expertise to evaluate that persons views, can be worthwhile in judging the weight to give a particular viewpoint.
I leave it to each person to arrive at their own judgment regarding the view in link for the news letter you posted and/or the links I provided above.
To Jeff and others, I appreciate this string can get a bit difficult at times, but I for one feel it on the whole has been very informative. A special thank you to all those that take the time to digest, research and post. Especially to docs who have given their time!!
Quote from: Lostinmn on December 26, 2021, 10:10:03 AM
Regardless of information that agrees or disagrees with any particular view, spending time to the extend possible considering the not only the veracity of the source, but also how also the source is viewed by others with the type of knowledge or expertise to evaluate that persons views, can be worthwhile in judging the weight to give a particular viewpoint.
I leave it to each person to arrive at their own judgment regarding the view in link for the news letter you posted and/or the links I provided above.
To Jeff and others, I appreciate this string can get a bit difficult at times, but I for one feel it on the whole has been very informative. A special thank you to all those that take the time to digest, research and post. Especially to docs who have given their time!!
Lostinmn, I agree completely with your views and assure you I found a number of other resources recently and in the past few months that agreed with what I posted. Also I found a total lack of views that disputed the information posted. So I'm sorry Jeff if my post caused your dismay but that information was as factual as I can be.
Also Lostinmn, to illustrate the difficulty in discovering facts these days, I followed your link to what is called MIT Technology Review where they were disparaging Steve Kirsch. Here is but one of the criticism's of him.
He's refused to accept the results of a hydroxychloroquine (https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/05/22/1002182/chloroquine-hydroxychlorquine-anti-malarial-drug-trump-covid-19-might-be-dangerous/) trial that showed the drug had no value in treating covid, for instance, instead blaming investigators for poor study design and statistical errors. When I clicked on the link for hydroxychloroquine I was taken to another MIT Technology Review article that referenced a study published in The Lancet and that raised a red flag to me because of prior knowledge of that fake study that was somehow published in the prestigious Lancet but was found to be totally bogus. That led me to this link RETRACTED: Hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19: a multinational registry analysis (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31324-6/fulltext) which does not begin to explain the outright fraud where the organization that was claimed to have conducted the study was found to not exist and the other authors referenced refused to share the data set that many other researchers found to be completely bogus.
Yes, we are in the middle of a pandemic of both a virus and also one of misinformation that extends around the world. So again I am sorry Jeff for my part in your discomfiture about this search for the truth but hopefully we can all here benefit from this back and forth in search for the truth.