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Dead Standing Mystery Tree

Started by High_Water, December 28, 2020, 09:59:32 AM

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Magicman

Doesn't have to be a closeup.  Zoom in with the sky as a background and take what pictures you can of the limbs.
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Roxie

Loving this discussion. My money is on WDH. 
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High_Water

Not much left of branches as you can see, I managed to cut up a limb - The smell says not cottonwood, it was not quite citrus but kinda tangy and for some reason sassafras is the smell that comes to mind, but that's only because I cut one down one time and now all strong smelling trees remind me of that smell.  Limb sawdust was not orange, but it was just a limb so that may not be definitive, I made a cut at the base but the outer few inches of sapwood was pretty rotten that far down and I'm not quite ready to cut it all the way down. It's probably too far gone to even make good firewood but I was just curious since it looks like the only tree of that species on the property.



 

 

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

stavebuyer


timberking

I am leaning towards persimmon now.  This is Merica and I can change my mind.  The first bark pics just looked like ossage orange in my yard.

High_Water

Google results for persimmon tree bark don't look right to me.

What does ash normally smell like, from the one place I've found it mentioned its described as unpleasant, and that is not how I would describe my tree, otherwise I would say ash for sure. The end grain matches closest the above picture of ash from what I can see zooming in on my phone, I'll have to sand a piece down to confirm.

SwampDonkey

Ash does not smell spicey, but the end grain looks a lot like sassafras, not persimmon. Sassafras has aromatic odor.

In wood ID keys it comes down to sassafras and ash being close.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

stavebuyer

The bark does not resemble persimmon at all but the wood sure does. The wood looks nothing like sassafras and neither does the bark. Sassafras has an orange cambium and tan colored wood.

The bark in the 1st picture somewhat resembles ash but it has way too much interlacing of the ridges and again the wood is not even close.



stavebuyer

Is it possible you that you have a sassafras that grew around a persimmon?

High_Water

Quote from: stavebuyer on January 05, 2021, 11:47:33 AM
Is it possible you that you have a sassafras that grew around a persimmon?
I can't see that being the case. The tree is a lot larger than I remembered from my first post, I would say easily 2' dia at the base, and I don't think sassafras or persimmon get that big (maybe I'm wrong, that's just what I thought). The bark is pretty consistent all the way around and except for that little owl hole it doesn't have any weird growths or areas that suggest two trees merged.
I've never smelled osage orange wood, but I have smelled osage oranges and this didn't smell like that. I've got an osage down the way from it I may have to do a side by side smell comparison lol. I never saw the tree living for sure so don't discount rot resistant trees as suspects because this thing may have been dead for years. I was convinced ash until I read about ash's smell and now I'm not so sure, we may just have to wait until its all the way down and hope its not rotted all the way through.

SwampDonkey

Ash wood when planed, the shavings smell different than maple, but not aromatic in any sense.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Those limbs sure remind me of an elm. Never seen ash grow major limbs off the side like that. It looks like a tree with a crown up high spread out very wide.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

High_Water

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 05, 2021, 02:27:50 PM
Those limbs sure remind me of an elm. Never seen ash grow major limbs off the side like that. It looks like a tree with a crown up high spread out very wide.
There is a good bit of elm around here as well, and this one doesn't exactly look the same but I know that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I didn't think elm was particularly aromatic either, or at least I've seen it describe as unpleasant - which this one I would not call unpleasant. There was another mystery tree up here that I concluded was elm that definitely didn't smell like this one, but of course I may have been wrong there too.

stavebuyer

If you scrape/chop/peel a little bark off it will be burnt orange in color and have an aroma similar to root beer if it is sassafras.

I have seen sassafras hit 36 DBH. Rare but happens.

SwampDonkey

No, elm is more like the smell of horse urine. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

High_Water

Quote from: stavebuyer on January 05, 2021, 03:06:15 PM
If you scrape/chop/peel a little bark off it will be burnt orange in color and have an aroma similar to root beer if it is sassafras.

I have seen sassafras hit 36 DBH. Rare but happens.
I cut a couple inches in with a saw but didn't scrape the bark back, but the outer few inches of sapwood was fairly rotted where I was messing around at the base. I can't recall from memory the exact smell but root beer didn't come to mind at the time, I just know it was fairly aromatic and not unpleasant, sorry I'm not good with smells. I can say for sure it wasn't cottonwood swamp/sewer water, and definitely not horse urine-ish either.

KEC

I think the fact that it has been dead for some time is going to change the way it smells. Fresh ash is not unpleasant, maybe could be described as a nutty smell. I can still remember many years ago my father drilling holes in fresh sawn ash to make holes to put bolts through to make wagon  beds. 

SwampDonkey

All told, every species of wood smells different. If you saw and plane a wide variety of wood, it is engrained in your sniffer cells. And it smells different when it ferments and spoils to. Rock maple will smell like cow poo by the time it is seasoned for firewood. ;D Nice smelly white pine fresh, will turn to a distasteful mould smell when it turns to denim pine. :D

For us in North America, end grain is more definitive than finger prints. ;D Finger printing is not as reliable as you think. Many scientists have knocked it down and some judges.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

aigheadish

All y'all are infinitely more knowledgeable than I on this kind of stuff, but my immediate thought, with the thick bark was black walnut... 

I don't know what the difference is between Texas Ash and Ohio Ash but my Ash doesn't look anything like this at all. The bark on my years dead ash trees likes to flake off in relatively big chunks and as someone else said the branching doesn't seem right. Also, on the Osage Orange tip, am I to understand there is Osage Orange that stands up straight? We have a fair amount of it around here and it all seems to get to about 8 feet high then stretch mostly horizontally. 
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KEC

Speaking for myself, I have stopped short of saying that it is ash. Bark resembles ash. And, again, long dead wood smells much different from fresh. I'm anxious to hear the final verdict.

bluthum

Any answers are mostly guesses with the info given. Looks like the tree has had a very challenging life which makes things like bark pattern not all that definitive. If the inside wasn't so hollowed out osage would be a good guess but then again the inside may have burned out rather than rotted. It's irregular shape is typical for the osage oranges I see. The cut off limb looks considerably like a cut off piece of dead osage might look.

Also the wood is very remindful of dead persimmon but no way for the bark, or at least how the bark looks in my world. That's one of the suckers deals about bark, it can vary a great deal in appearance from location to location or even site differences.  Persimmon is a rot fast species and sometimes it will hollow out similar to the pic but otherwise no bueno for a match.

So I'm not guessing but if I were there I'd want to take a few whacks at it with a sharp axe, through the sap wood and expect some definitive evidence to emerge. Also it might be definitive to id the fungus growth, some are specific to what thay will grow on.

As for the fire wood aspect if it is osage orange there will still be some rocket fuel there. 

Southside

Has anyone thought to just ask the tree what it identifies as?  Might claim it's a SYP.   :D
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SwampDonkey

Yeah, but it's fun to guess. I'm sure a lot of us have educated guesses, even if they are wrong. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Tacotodd

SS, if they only COULD speak. But do you really want trees to talk! Think of what they could tell about us, as individual persons. There goes MY 5th amendment rights. 🤪
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