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4" vs 4.5" Hydraulic Splitting Cylinder

Started by Rougespear, October 07, 2019, 09:32:29 PM

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Rougespear

Sawguy: I never noticed you were so close!  I haven't spoken with Reliable Rebuilders yet regarding getting a cylinder made up.  Or were you referring to another "good hyd/machine shop"?

I was thinking of trying a standard 4.5" x 24" cylinder with a 1.75" rod and go from there.  The cylinder is easy enough to change out should I not like the performance.

jmur1: could you elaborate a bit on your dump valves?  I have the basic idea, but not solid in my mind.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Hilltop366

Quote from: hedgerow on October 09, 2019, 08:21:12 PM
Quote from: Hilltop366 on October 09, 2019, 06:09:50 PM
One of the slickest ways I have seen to speed up splitting time was a firewood processor Youtube video I had seen that the processor used two single acting hydraulic cylinders, the pushers were tied together at the back with a chain and a roller so that when one cylinder was extended it also retracted the other one. The pushers and cylinder rods were covered with a large box tubing that was set on a 45° from flat and it was designed so that when the pusher closest to the saw was extended the block of wood would slide over the pusher into the second one.

Almost halves the splitting cycle, no wait for the return stroke, no need for extra large cylinder rods to speed up splitting time.
If you could post that link I would like to see that processor. Sounds like a neat way to do it.  Thanks
I looked for the video when I posted but did not find it, I will look some more.

doc henderson

                                             
found on splitez web site.  on the phone sounds like they know a thing or two.


  Dump Valve

 


  • Less heat.


  • Less wear on main valve.


  • Less restriction.
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  5 " Bore cylinder with a 2.5" shaft on return stroke a 28 GPM pump will push more than 28 GPM of fluid out the return port of cylinder. A 30 GPM dump valve will take  up to 30 GPM away from Hydraulic control valve less load on main valve.

How to plum a hydraulic dump valve.

    Dump valve number  1-2-3 on block.

Port 3  Hydraulic hose shaft end of cylinder.
Port 2  Hydraulic hose back to hydraulic tank.
Port 1  Hydraulic hose to pressure end of hydraulic cylinder.



 Horizontal Log Splitter with Dump Valve    
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Shown with all the options hose & fittings and LS 3000 2 Mounter on Vertical Log Splitter

Price each  30 GPM   $ 135.95
Price each  65 GPM   $ 226.95
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Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

sawguy21

Quote from: Rougespear on October 09, 2019, 09:03:27 PM
Sawguy: I never noticed you were so close!  I haven't spoken with Reliable Rebuilders yet regarding getting a cylinder made up.  Or were you referring to another "good hyd/machine shop"?

I was thinking of trying a standard 4.5" x 24" cylinder with a 1.75" rod and go from there.  The cylinder is easy enough to change out should I not like the performance.

jmur1: could you elaborate a bit on your dump valves?  I have the basic idea, but not solid in my mind.
Is Newnes  Machine still around?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Rougespear

I think around in a sense... but definitely long gone as Newns.  Went to school with a couple of those boys back in the day.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

hedgerow

I have gotten a few dump valves from Splitez they were good people to work with. I think you may be able to get a oversize rod cylinder from them also. There web site is a good one. 

jmur1

I got my dump valves at a small hydraulic shop in Guelph (Industrial Hydraulics).  I plumbed them right on the cylinder lines.



 



 

I will pull the details on the valves for you.
Easy does it

jmur1

The Valve numbers are VBPS02S (looks like an Italian supplier see attached spec) I paid $98 Canadian in 2015
3/8" line fittings and around 48 GPM per the spec.

Fairly simple to add in.  Need two "T" connectors and additional line/fittings back to tank.
The "pilot" connection on this one is 1/4" NPT and the "Flow" connection is 3/8 NPT.

1. "T" into the high pressure side of the cylinder with the 1/4" pilot line back to the dump valve.    This line tells the dump valve when to open.
2. "T" into the return side of the cylinder with the 3/8" line and connect the "flow" line on one side of the valve to this "T" and the other side to tank.  I'm sure there was an arrow on it so make sure that is correct.  Thats it.  I have been using this setup for several years now and so far so good.  I have had some curious hesitation on occasion but nothing that resulted in action yet.  Definitely necessary to have a good hydraulic filter on your system and change it as required.
It paid for itself in the first year - you will notice the speed difference. 

jmur1



 

  
Easy does it

jmur1

I would also like to mention a comment about the larger rod size.  While it is true that a properly braced cylinder will typically see lower levels of bending in the rod, there are some cases where this will still fail.
For my processor you may run any where from 6" to 20" diameter logs.  
Properly locating the center of the cylinder on a push plate to avoid the bending on the push plate is tricky when you have to consider a line center of action from 3" to 10" vertical.  
Wear makes things loose and small angles grow over time.
I bent my 2" rod (on my Ø5" cylinder) in a nice "U"one day - and I am the wise careful owner!   Many logs over time put a small angle on the plate and when you are pushing 60 large tonnage that can very quickly bend the rod.
PS some cuts are better left off to the side for the hand splitter!
jmur1  
Easy does it

moodnacreek

Oversize rods are more for speed than strength. 3/4" hose should be plenty and I think it must be 6 wire. To go to 1" hose sounds like a problem and should not be necessary.

doc henderson

i would start with something affordable.  bigger ports may help with huge flow but if it is a short length, not much effect.  i mounted my valve (turned upside down) direct on the cylinder.  the rest of the hose is 3/4 inch or sae number 12 fittings.  the dump valve is for the large volume of oil being pushed out, to return to the reservoir via the control valve.  it bypasses and reduces the heat and restriction relative to that volume.  splitez also sells a double stick double detent valve that will speed things up.  not for kids or gnarly wood that might break something.
i got my cylinder cause it was a odd size special ordered and not picked up.  i think they had four of them and i paid 150$ for a 5 inch x 32 inch with 2 inch rod.  new in the box.  if you find a good deal on a 4 inch and can get two you could stack them and double the power (force), divide the flow and reduce friction/heat that way.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Gearbox

Are you going to run a circle saw or a hydraulic chainsaw . You are looking for speed in the splitter . If your running a circle saw you need a very fast cycle time . A chainsaw not so much . Ask guys with large hydraulic chainsaw for there saw cycle time on 20 inch wood and build from there . My processer has a 8 to 10 second cycle time and run a bush cord an hour one 74 year old man loading with a bobcat and running the machine .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Rougespear

Will be a hyd saw... circle saws are too big for my liking.

Thanks jmur1 for the details - very much appreciated.

I priced out a custom cylinder at the local hyd shop today: $1k CDN for a 4.5" bore, 3" rod and 24" stroke.  So I grabbed a regular 4.5" cylinder from the local "big distributor" instead.  I will upsize the ports if I am dissatisfied/have a problem with hydraulic system heat.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

wiam

Jmur1, are you running dump oil through return filter?

jmur1

Hi wiam
I am not running the dump oil through the filter.  It goes straight to tank.  I figured out of the other 5 valve channels that run on a consistent basis, there was enough filtering of the oil already.  I run the control valve return line directly through the filter.
jmur1
Easy does it

Rougespear

Hi all, I am wondering on opinions of the thickness of the splitter backstop with a 24 ton system?  I was thinking of building a 3/4" splitting wedge backed up by a piece of 3/4" x 8" bar.  Does that backup need to be upsized to 1" plate?
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

Al_Smith

It's unlikely you could bend a 3/4" upright plate with a knife edge spliter.

doc henderson

mine is cold rolled steel 3/4 ".  I bent it a little with a gnarly 32 inch round years back that tried to flip back over it.  the cut was not perpendicular and lots of knots.  I added the top extension.  now recently I was splitting a very dry mulberry log that had several branch points and too big for the splitter, and torqued the pusher a bit, maybe a mm or 2.  not the face, but the plate sliding on the H beam.  so fine 99% of the time, and keep an eye on teenage boys that would prefer if the whole thing did not work anyway.  I tend to be careful since I will have to fix it if I break it.

the design in the pic would really support the face of the pusher.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Al_Smith

All this talk of heavy duty bullet proof spliters reminds me of a little light duty deal that was given to me .4" beam,1/4" knife edge cutter with a 2.5" cylinder .I replaced the 5 HP Briggs with a 240 volt electric motor that had an amp draw that equated to around 2.7 HP and used a 250 foot roll of 12-2 romex for the power .Laid on the ground with go-kart tires on the back .Pulled it around on the back of a riding lawn mower .
You would not believe what that tiny little thing would split .Sure you could out produce it with an axe for maybe 15 minute but it didn't need a break.just kept keeping on . I gave it to my wifes cousin who still uses it .I had split some 30" oak rounds with it .
Every so often it would stick on a knotty piece .Just noodle it with a chainsaw and break out the steel wedges and 8 pound sledge hammer.Simple as that . 

hedgerow

Rougespear   
I don't think you will have a problem with the 3/4 inch back stop. The part you want to watch is the size of the beam. Those knotty pieces always like to torque the beam right ahead of were the wedge is attached. I would make that slide as long as you can  to cut down on the movement of the slide as things get worn. One of the best slides I have seen was on a old Uhaul rent splitter with a four inch cylinder that had a two foot slide on it. Splitter had been a rent unit for years and was forty years old and the slide was still tight. A lot of movement on the slide is hard on cylinder's. 

doc henderson

my pusher bottom has a plate, then a spacer the thickness of the h beam web, then washers to shim a bit more.  then a bottom piece to hold it onto the H beam top.  i can replace the bottoms or turn them over when worn, and or thin the washers down after wear to tighten things up.  see prev. pics.  I like the reinforcement in the pic, that covers the cylinder, but also creates potential pinch points.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

jmur1

So....I was curious to look at this one - I had a suspicion it might be a little light.

I should clarify first.  The load is assumed to be 24 ton or 48000 lbs

Note this load may never be seen by the backing plate for a couple of reasons.  

1. The I-beam will bend limiting the maximum load the backing plate will see.
2. The wood must resist the load - meaning a real knotty piece
3. The machine must develop the full force of the cylinder capability.

Anyhow the attached captures show a 1 inch plate loaded evenly along the full exposed face will see up to 66 ksi (which should be survivable for 40ksi steel)
The 3/4" plate does not survive the same loading -  it is over 100ksi which is into failure territory.



 



PS if you give me the size of the Ibeam I can better predict the whole arrangement.
Easy does it

doc henderson

a lot of splitters have 3/4" pushers and with reinforcement should do ok.  not sure you can make it too heavy so put as much into it as you would like.  boxing in the beam will help prevent torqueing.  the concern is if the push is automated, then it is harder to stop if it all goes to heck.  with a manual splitter you stop.  if crooked grain is twisting, I stop and back up to let the log center back up and push on.  dry gnarly wood is the worst.  there is always a weak link and without an engineering and R&D department, you go by what others have done, then add repairs and upgrades as you find the weak areas.  
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Rougespear

jmur1: nice simulation!  Here are more specs for you if you are interested in furthering the simulation: I think of using an I-beam 8" x 31lb (5/16" web with 7/16" flanges) and the fishplates reinforcing the backer plate to the I-beam are about 1/2" x 6 1/2" plate both sides.  At some point I think you guys are right and the I-beam will begin to become the failure location. So probably I'll just weld it about hope for the best.

Doc, I'm okay with a 3/4" push because I can refab that easy enough.  I'm more concerned about the wedge backstop because it is integrally welded and not easy to change.
Custom built Cook's-style hydraulic bandmill.

jmur1

Hi Rougespear:
The simulation is PTC Creo (formerly pro Engineer)
I ran 5 feet of the beam included with the backstop piece.  The beam appears to be nice and heavy for this cylinder.  Deflection will be in the ball park of 3/8" max at the top.  It really didnt change the findings at all (made it abit worse since I had guessed a smaller 6" beam before)

To error on the side of caution is my way, but 3/4" thickness would probably work for a long time with no issues on this splitter.  I will say the 3/4 will be easier to fit in and fishplate in the way you have designed it.

Another thing to consider on this design:  The "wings" of the splitter on occasion will see a large unbalanced load (one sided) .  This will very quickly lead to a bent (twisted) sliding splitter.  I think you have a little bit of overhang there - I would increase that a little more - and lengthen the wings.  Also make sure you use thick material there as well.  I have tried 3/8" material on those wings and had them pop off and bend like nobodies business.  Everything is dependant on the operator and the wood type and size.  All I can tell you is if you build one of these - don't sell your welder when its done!



 


        


 


Easy does it

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