The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread

[Southside]

If it doesn't most likely will be looking for work.

Air conditioned cab tractor.....:D

[newoodguy78]

 :D :D Is "layering" frowned on if it got too cold in the cab? :D

[btulloh]

I get the feeling that it's going to work out. I'm looking forward to seeing the results. 

[mike_belben]

Martins farm compost out of greenfield.  $10/yd for just straight chip.  

Im sure youre moving in the right direction.  If you whip up a compost tea and innoculate the pile itll go even further toward fungal decomposition instead of bacterial which the voices in my head are saying would be good.  Even just adding some punky fluffy oak debris from the nearest rotten log would ensure a quicker micorhizal breakdown. You dont want this to be a hot steamy compost.  Thats bacteria.  


I will bet your earthworm count jumps right up by spring.  

I cant remember if it was gabe brown or dave brandt who made the claim that a certain amount of earthworms can completely "turn" your soil in X amount of time.  So i watched some glass window earthworm composting timelapses.  Holy cow they really do spin dirt around. 

[Southside]

Man have you checked into the cost to have 2,4-D and Roundup aerial applied from an un numbered and un lit helicopter at night, in June, there in your neck of the woods?  I was a bit surprised but consider it to be a good recrutiment investment.  At least he takes bitcoin.  :D

[newoodguy78]

If you're going to that extent have em throw some gramoxone and hell-fire in with the mix. What's a little more bitcoin  :D

[newoodguy78]

Martins farm compost out of greenfield.  $10/yd for just straight chip.  

Im sure youre moving in the right direction.  If you whip up a compost tea and innoculate the pile itll go even further toward fungal decomposition instead of bacterial which the voices in my head are saying would be good.  Even just adding some punky fluffy oak debris from the nearest rotten log would ensure a quicker micorhizal breakdown. You dont want this to be a hot steamy compost.  Thats bacteria.  


I will bet your earthworm count jumps right up by spring.  

I cant remember if it was gabe brown or dave brandt who made the claim that a certain amount of earthworms can completely "turn" your soil in X amount of time.  So i watched some glass window earthworm composting timelapses.  Holy cow they really do spin dirt around.

I'll be looking into the compost guys. Those loads are chicken manure, slightly hotter than compost. plan on spreading around 4 tons/acre on corn ground and eliminating 80 percent of the fertilizer application the first year. Call me crazy that's what I'm trying.
The landowner those loads are on already told me it won't work. Challenge accepted.

[Southside]

Do you need a nutrient management plan there to use manure? 

[mike_belben]

nice.  i am confident it will work much better if spread on the surface overwinter and undisturbed until you seed in whatever is next, rather than tilled in. i had stump grindings dumped here maybe 2, 3 weeks ago.  its already turning to dirt. 

the chipped branch pile from the powerline ROW clearing guys last week is quite steamy.. my dogs have been digging holes into it and sleeping on top at night.  not a bad idea. 

[mike_belben]

Man have you checked into the cost to have 2,4-D and Roundup aerial applied from an un numbered and un lit helicopter at night, in June, there in your neck of the woods?  I was a bit surprised but consider it to be a good recrutiment investment.  At least he takes bitcoin.  :D

uhh.. do what now?   :D
nutrient management plan for manure?  what a crock of shhh..   ;D

[newoodguy78]

From what I've been able to find out there's no nutrient plan needed. When you get into some of these larger confinement  facilities they fall under different guidelines. All dairies in this state aren't supposed to spread any manure after the 15th of December I believe is. Not sure when it comes off in the spring. Not a fan of that regulation.
There is certain guidelines for spreading on produce ground depending on the crop. Different manures have a different number of days they can be applied prior to harvest. Those all seem logical and very easy to abide by.
All season I spread fresh  horse manure yet I will not put it anywhere near a field with marketable crops in it. It all went on fallow or cover cropped ground.

[mike_belben]

regarding manures. 

Bio Minerals Technologies on Vimeo

[Southside]

The longer it sits on the surface the more nitrogen you loose to ammonia volitization. Not to mention with hen dressing the more neighbors you tick off. 

The December 15th rule is basically universal in that the idea is you don't spread onto frozen ground. Doing so results in nitrogen leaching into surface water, algae blooms, etc. 

[mike_belben]

Kens claim in the vid i linked above is basically that the only way a single manure application is going to reduce fertilizer inputs long term is if its contribution is correct microbial life, not NPK.  Spread raw it is pathogenic and anaerobic which is why nutrients volatize off as ammonia, phosphine gas, methane and hydrogen sulfide.  Lethal in confinement.  

I would compost it with moldy hay, straw, leaves, woodchips, old pumpkins etc etc.  Aerobic material is important.  It needs turned.  

One could trial both ways to figure out if its true or not. 

[mike_belben]

atomic breakdown of all elements in plant matter suggests carbon makes up 40x more plant tissue than nitrogen.





Elaine Ingham claiming silt sand clay and pebbles possess sufficient N for plant growth if the biological components required to release them are present

Do You Need to Remineralize Soils? featuring Dr. Elaine Ingham - YouTube

Nitrogen breakdown flow chart from a researchgate paper.  Seems to support the claims that the form of nitrogen microbial life ties up is not plant soluble anyway, until the microbes are done digesting it and each other.  I dont fully understand that so forgive me if im wrong.

[newoodguy78]

 
 

 
 
These strips are 40-50' apart in the same field. Planted on the same day. With the same mix wheat red clover and daikon radishes. Both grew the same crops.  The top one had composted horse manure and half the suggested rate of fertilizer used prior to planting the original crop. Was also disked up well just before cover went in.
Bottom picture had the suggested amount of fertilizer used with no compost. The strip was disked probably 2-3 weeks prior to planting and let sit then went in and " no-tilled" the cover in.
The difference is dramatic, radishes are 1 1/2 to 2" diameter and 8-10" long. Wheat is 12-16" tall , the clover understory has leaves the size of dimes. Everything is very lush and healthy looking. 
The other one wheat is 6-8", radishes 1/2 -3/4" , 4-6" long the clover has leaves are the size of a paper punch. All the foliage just doesn't have a healthy look to it 

[newoodguy78]

I get the feeling that it's going to work out. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.  

I don't remember if it was in this thread or not, appreciate you questioning the recommended fertilizer rates. The answers that were given when I asked the hard questions really made me start questioning them and looking elsewhere. Definitely keep you posted. 

[mike_belben]

100 likes on your results.

What is the bare dirt from ? disking ahead of a planter?  

Did you take any pics of the covers up close?  

[btulloh]

I think that discussion was in your first post when you were saying how much fertilizer you were putting down at planting. There's just no way the N put down would still be available in the soil 4-6 weeks after planting when it would be beneficial. It is certainly beneficial to the fertilizer vendor though!

Looks like you're on the way to some better methods though. The chicken manure/straw mixture mentioned a few replies back is magic if you can get enough.  I think ideally you still need some N applied when it's about past your your knee high.  The good thing is, the leaf color tells you how the N is holding up. If it's deep green you're good, and if it's lighter green or looking a little yellow, there's not enough N. 

The soil improvement being discussed in this thread is very interesting and it's not something I know much about, but it seems like it should be pursued. I do know there's a lot of discussion about it now in big ag and the benefits beyond the standard fertilizer approach that is the SOP now in commercial corn and bean production. I'm learning more about it in this thread, but it's all new to me.

You've got a bit of a tightrope to walk since your making changes to the farms methods that are producing predictable results, so good on ya for taking on the challenge. If that's wood chips I see you dumping on now, make sure you keep an eye on the pH impact and make corrections in advance and not after the fact.

All very interesting and I'll be interested to see how things turn out (and how much your fertilizer costs go down!).

[mike_belben]

Please dont misinterpret your results..  That manure didnt increase the vigor of your cover crop because of nitrogen.  The magic that you added was carbon and aerobic microbial innoculation.  The 3 way cover had some synergistic diversity that helped demand more atmospheric N be fixated by the clover to feed the wheat and radish, and the root exudates from that cover fed the microbial life that you brought in with the manure.  


I hope your next comparison no matter how small, is rolling or trampling that cover down and planting into it with no soil disturbance.  Please please please try it.  ONE SHEET of plywood laid on the cover crop for 3 days and hand plant or foot stomp in your next cash crop in that one tiny spot just to show the owner the difference between tillage and drilling into terminated cover.  it is a huge difference in every single control group comparison i have encountered.  i have yet to see a video showing how it did not produce incredible results. 


That tillage is killing fungi, earthworms, soil structure, embedded oxygen capacity and water infiltration and storage rates.  I proved it to myself by plowing this year and setting things backward immediately.  Had to see for myself. Yup, mistake.

[moodnacreek]

N.W.G., that can't be N.H., there are no rocks :D.         Nice fields.

[btulloh]

All good points Mike.  Eliminating tillage has so many benefits that it can't be ignored. 

The necessity of N availability in the proper amounts has to be taken into account too.  Best yield N rates is well known through many studies and test plots at major universities all over, so the target is well defined. 50 lbs N/acre at planting and 100-120 lbs N/acre when N uptake peaks starting at the six leaf stage. Then the question becomes how to make the N available in the right amounts at the right times. 

I'm learning about some of those new (actually old) ways here in this thread. The challenge for NWG is to transition to new methods and not negatively impact production or the bottom line. 

A couple good reads: 

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/organic-sweet-corn-production

https://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/corn/news/timeless/NitrogenMgmt.pdf

[newoodguy78]

N.W.G., that can't be N.H., there are no rocks :D.         Nice fields.

Certainly not N.H, I take it you've seen that farm land. Chunks of granite with a little clay mixed in where I'm from  :D . This ground is in southern mass.
That little valley is about 20 acres nice ground but needs some work. Picked 2 stones down there this season, one clinker and the other one wouldn't have hurt anything but got bored disking and wanted to stretch my legs. ;D

[newoodguy78]

@btulloh you certainly understand the situation I'm up against. Can't argue the fact the practices used here in the past are what built this place. Been trying different methods without disrupting the supply chain so to speak, I'm not comfortable banking on any one practice without some sort of backup plan. There's enough challenges to this farming deal that can't be controlled without adding my mistakes to the mix. 
The only real capital investment that's been made is a grain drill and a wider selection of cover crop seeds. That saved me one pass over 100 acres. Value of that ? No idea but the fuel and time savings alone was noticed by the boss. Figured out the savings on mixing my own cocktail of seeds (and finding a different source)saved somewhere around 1500-2000 dollars over last years rye seed bill. Running them through a drill you use less than broadcasting n scratching them in as well with a better catch.
Not my money however the return on investment was pretty fast in my opinion. 
Three things that make me very leery about a total transition to a complete no-till "regenerative " system. 
1- no one that I know of is doing it with the diversity of crops that are here. Corn and pumpkins yes I've seen good results. 
2-There is no talk from these guys that are very good at it about the financial struggles during the transition period. Their systems work for them but take time to achieve. Again they're growing different crops. 
3- The capital investment is huge on this scale. Made some major repairs to equipment and finally working with decent equipment. Wouldn't mind using it versus working on it all the time. The equipment here was ROUGH when I started. Like to see a return to the farm on money already spent on repairs and upgrades
By no means am I sayin everything I've done is correct some of it has produced results though. 

[mike_belben]

great work bronado.  you getting energized to experiment justifies the time i spend typing away in this thread.  thank you for sticking your neck out.

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does this show 2 mason jars for you guys? the soil clod on the left is held together by living organisms that "glue" soil constituents into an aggregate and hold it there in downpours.  the tilled one on the right is obviously an example of how new orleans was built by the midwestern farmer.  i urge you to show the boss and run your own trials.