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Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws

Started by quadrider550, December 01, 2021, 11:01:46 PM

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quadrider550

I want to get an idea of how many people out there would be interested in using a bolt on adapter (replaces stock flywheel cover) that allows you to start your Stihl MS 440 or larger chainsaw with any 18 - 20 volt cordless drill. I have developed a working prototype for my MS 660 that I can easily apply to the other large saws. Please reply yes if you think this is a good idea or no if you think it's a waste of time. Thanks.
Just a simple country boy...don't know much about much...except that it's better to work smarter not harder whenever possible.

WV Sawmiller

   I think it is a good idea. I have a couple of 440s and my wife has a small easy-start model. I always wondered why they did not make such for the bigger saws. Good luck with your endeavors.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

D6c

I've thought about doing something like that but never persued it as the two saws I have start pretty easily.  Of more use to me would be one for small Briggs and Stratton engines.

fishpharmer

Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Crossroads

Quote from: D6c on December 02, 2021, 06:46:26 AM
I've thought about doing something like that but never persued it as the two saws I have start pretty easily.  Of more use to me would be one for small Briggs and Stratton engines.
When I raced go karts we used a a 12v starter motor with a one way clutch on a shaft with a 3/4 socket that fit the flywheel bolt. Never thought of using it for a chainsaw 🤔
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

grabber green

My take is, it sounds cool,but if you can't start a large saw with the starter rope you probably don't need to be using a large chainsaw. Once you get a saw started is when the real workout begins.  I don't want to discourage you from trying to market your invention though because you just might be able to sell a bunch of them.

longtime lurker

Quote from: grabber green on December 02, 2021, 09:56:57 AM
My take is, it sounds cool,but if you can't start a large saw with the starter rope you probably don't need to be using a large chainsaw.
This!!!
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Ed_K

 Since I got sick I cannot start my 376 xpg the first time in the morning, it takes both of us to get that or the 394 xp going. I haven't had any problems with running them for a couple hrs. I've been trying to get a quick starter with a drill for over a yr, how did you do it  8). tried turning a bowl with rubber strips inside to turn the starter side but it just striped to rubber off. I also tried this on the starter on the band mill couldn't pull that over first start of the day either.
Ed K

sawguy21

It has been tried many times but somebody has yet to come up with a practical solution. It would need to engage the starter pawls and have an over running clutch to keep the drill from spinning at 9,000 rpm in the operators hands when the saw starts.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Silverfoxfintry

This is an interesting idea.
I use something similar to start the 700cc motor on my vintage MG5 tractor.
I use a post-hole borer with an adaptor to replace the original starter handle.
It works well, but you have to be really well braced and hope the motor doesn't kick back.
Good luck with your idea.

Silverfox 

doc henderson

i used a socket on an impact batt. Dewalt tool and used it to start a log splitter motor.  it started and the socket got in a bind and almost took my arm and forehead off.  I would worry about liability if you marketed this.  
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

quadrider550

Quote from: sawguy21 on December 02, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
It has been tried many times but somebody has yet to come up with a practical solution. It would need to engage the starter pawls and have an over running clutch to keep the drill from spinning at 9,000 rpm in the operators hands when the saw starts.
My starter engages the flywheel only in the direction of engine rotation which allows the engine fire and spin faster than the starter without putting any rotational  force on the starter/drill/operator. 
Just a simple country boy...don't know much about much...except that it's better to work smarter not harder whenever possible.

quadrider550

Quote from: grabber green on December 02, 2021, 09:56:57 AM
My take is, it sounds cool,but if you can't start a large saw with the starter rope you probably don't need to be using a large chainsaw. Once you get a saw started is when the real workout begins.  I don't want to discourage you from trying to market your invention though because you just might be able to sell a bunch of them.
It's not that I can't start my big saw, I can and have many times...I just don't like to and I don't think I'm alone in my feelings towards starting big bore saws. 
Just a simple country boy...don't know much about much...except that it's better to work smarter not harder whenever possible.

Southside

If you truly have something that good, then my advice would be to stop talking about it in public and go find a patent attorney.  You see big saws, Stihl has a start assist on smaller saws so someone thinks there is a market for such a device.

Best of luck with it.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

YellowHammer

It's been done before, in some form or fashion, what's different than some of the electric starter conversion kits other have built?

I don't like starting a saw either, but with the higher horsepower units, it's unsafe to not have two hands on them at all times during the starting transient, and when they are running.  Positive physical control of the power head as well as the saw chain is crucial, and holding a 7 hp machine that's designed to cut thing into pieces, quickly, with only one hand, even if on the ground, while starting it using a device that requires my second hand is not something I would do.

However, if the saw was temporarily captured in a stand or holder while started, then it would be safer.  At that point, two hands could be on the starter.  

From an engineering standpoint, an overrunning clutch on a small electric motor is the simple and standard way to do this, and I have started many internal combustion engines with an overrunning clutch on an electric drill or even a two handed electric starter.  

Very similar to the You Tube video except this person used a disengaging fixture instead of a clutch.

https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I

If the starter system was internal to the saw, such as the Easy Start, then that would be the ideal situation.

Just my thoughts.    

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

JoshNZ

Look at RC nitro helis, they're all started with electric starters. 12v motor with a hex shaft you poke in the top of the model and press a button.

The receiver end in the model is a bearing supported shaft that drives the engine crank via a sprag clutch, so you can leave the shaft in there after it starts and pull it out when you're ready. Google "Trex 700n starter" should give an idea.

I think it's a good idea for those with shoulder injuries/etc but for anyone who's capable of pulling a rope, no way. My guess is there'd be a few people out there really happy to see it become available but not a huge seller generally speaking. In a paralell universe where starters were the norm and the rope was the upgrade, I'd pay extra for the rope, to not carry another item around and worry about batteries etc.

quadrider550

Quote from: YellowHammer on December 02, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
It's been done before, in some form or fashion, what's different than some of the electric starter conversion kits other have built?

I don't like starting a saw either, but with the higher horsepower units, it's unsafe to not have two hands on them at all times during the starting transient, and when they are running.  Positive physical control of the power head as well as the saw chain is crucial, and holding a 7 hp machine that's designed to cut thing into pieces, quickly, with only one hand, even if on the ground, while starting it using a device that requires my second hand is not something I would do.

However, if the saw was temporarily captured in a stand or holder while started, then it would be safer.  At that point, two hands could be on the starter.  

From an engineering standpoint, an overrunning clutch on a small electric motor is the simple and standard way to do this, and I have started many internal combustion engines with an overrunning clutch on an electric drill or even a two handed electric starter.  

Very similar to the You Tube video except this person used a disengaging fixture instead of a clutch.

https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I

If the starter system was internal to the saw, such as the Easy Start, then that would be the ideal situation.

Just my thoughts.    
My starter is internal, not direct drive, and only engages one way so there is nothing to go flying when engine starts or try to spin the drill out of your hand and risk injury as the engine speed outruns the starter. I have been starting my MS660 with drill in left hand and right hand on the throttle dead cold with no choke or decompression used. Just hold throttle wide open until it fires (with chain brake on of course) and once started work throttle until RPM is stable. Once warm one quick spin of the drill fires it back up. The only thing is of course you need to bring a drill...but who doesn't have one of those these days. Thanks for your feedback. 
Just a simple country boy...don't know much about much...except that it's better to work smarter not harder whenever possible.

Tacotodd

My biggest and hardest start is the first one of the day. After that it's all gravy. But I manage just the same.

Now, if a unit is down on compression then the e start will help immensely but then it REALLY needs other mechanical work also.

Why not just install a SMALL decomp valve for the first start of the day. Because I don't think that you've elaborated as to when you have the most problems with your unit. Just something to think about.
Trying harder everyday.

Ventryjr

I never seen the need for one. Till one day I had a hard time starting my 661c.  *DanG near threw my back out yanking it over 20 some odd times before it fired.  Normally it's a 2 pull-start saw.  I'd probably buy one now.  I always have a Milwaukee 18v impact gun in my truck.  
-2x belsaw m14s and a Lane circle mill.

Sixacresand

It takes three hands to crank my stihl: one for holding the saw down, one to pull the starter rope and one operate the throttle.  but it is a heck of a cutting machine!
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

moodnacreek

I remember old saws that had a recoil start that came off and exposed a starter cup. What you needed was a rubber cone in a n electric drill to spin the chain saw, just a friction connection.  A fuel primer attachment is what I would like. I have to prime 2 of my saws every morning. 

YellowHammer

Quote from: quadrider550 on December 02, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 02, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
It's been done before, in some form or fashion, what's different than some of the electric starter conversion kits other have built?

I don't like starting a saw either, but with the higher horsepower units, it's unsafe to not have two hands on them at all times during the starting transient, and when they are running.  Positive physical control of the power head as well as the saw chain is crucial, and holding a 7 hp machine that's designed to cut thing into pieces, quickly, with only one hand, even if on the ground, while starting it using a device that requires my second hand is not something I would do.

However, if the saw was temporarily captured in a stand or holder while started, then it would be safer.  At that point, two hands could be on the starter.  

From an engineering standpoint, an overrunning clutch on a small electric motor is the simple and standard way to do this, and I have started many internal combustion engines with an overrunning clutch on an electric drill or even a two handed electric starter.  

Very similar to the You Tube video except this person used a disengaging fixture instead of a clutch.

https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I

If the starter system was internal to the saw, such as the Easy Start, then that would be the ideal situation.

Just my thoughts.    
My starter is internal, not direct drive, and only engages one way so there is nothing to go flying when engine starts or try to spin the drill out of your hand and risk injury as the engine speed outruns the starter. I have been starting my MS660 with drill in left hand and right hand on the throttle dead cold with no choke or decompression used. Just hold throttle wide open until it fires (with chain brake on of course) and once started work throttle until RPM is stable. Once warm one quick spin of the drill fires it back up. The only thing is of course you need to bring a drill...but who doesn't have one of those these days. Thanks for your feedback.
The overrunning clutch can be either external or internal.  I had assumed it would external and on the drill, so as not to modify the saw, which is a hit on resale.  However, it still requires an electric drill so is a two piece design. 

Two hands on the saw, one hand on the drill, but better if two, and I'm out of hands.

I assume the pull cord is still available and usable, most saws will start one pull when warm, so using a drill to start a warm saw is a no go for me.

Still not sure if this is a State of the Art or Prior Art.  

Do a literature search, and see what comes up.  However, disclosing in public before filing is generally grounds for dismissal.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

doc henderson

I use two hands, and a foot in the handle, (I stand on the other one) for my 880... and you have to hold your mouth just right.   :)
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Old Greenhorn

A couple of years ago my daughter rescued a weed whacker from the dump. and the starter pawls were blown apart and the surrounding plastic parts were shot. But I found one of these and it started like a charm. Troy Bilt has them on some of their tools.  LINK
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

sawguy21

I remember seeing a Remington with no rewind, it had a power cord with alligator clips. The operator either packed a battery or never got more than 10 feet from the truck. ;D I am surprised they sold any.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

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