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Western larch my new least favorite

Started by Crossroads, September 27, 2021, 12:00:47 AM

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Crossroads

Was milling for a regular customer yesterday and had a couple of 8'x20" western larch to cut. I've dealt with them and the pitch build up on the blade before and with the short logs I simply clean the blade before each cut with my pocket knife. Then we put a 16'x22" log on the mill and at about 12' into the cut I would get enough build up to cause some wave 😤😤. Even with cleaning the blade between cuts and squirting diesel on the blade with a squirt bottle while in the cut on one cut the blade took a hard upward detour, there was no saving it so I kept going while lifting the head, just to get out of the cut. Fortunately, the lumber we needed from this log was only 10' so I was able to buck the last 6' off and finish the order. I'm ashamed to admit that it had me using words I don't normally use before it was all done. I'm glad I don't deal with that stuff very often, it sure takes the joy out of an otherwise good day of milling. 
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

Satamax

Crossroads, i don't know if your larch was real pitchy. 

I cut mainly european larch, "larix decidua" 

Pure diesel works well for me, but the stream has to be big like a small welding rod. 

What i do now, mix diesel and washing up liquid. 2/3-1/3, and mix that mix with water. 

1/3 lube mix 2/3 water. And kind of flood it. In an afternoon, i might go through 2 or 3 gallons. Cutting the lube on the way back. 

The washing up liquid helps mix the diesel with water. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Jeff

Eastern larch must be a different animal. It saws like a dream, however it likes to act up after the fact.  I may change my tune as I have some here to saw that were dead standing 
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

JRWoodchuck

I primarily saw dead standing Western Larch I've found that there is usually so much pitch build up in the butt log that I've started turned my the bottom 10' log into firewood and then the rest of the logs usually cut really well. Took me awhile to realize that the butt logs were creating the grief. Most logs would mill really well then all the sudden the next log would be not so fun. Being the guy felling the trees also helps with that. 
Home built bandsaw mill still trying find the owners manual!

GAB

JRW:
Have you experimented with just putting the bottom 5' into firewood.
Does the DBH also affect the heavier pitch length.
GAB

W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

moosehunter

Sawed up a triaxle load of larch this weekend. 4900 bd ft. , 20 gallon of water/ Dawn lube. Only had the blade wander twice on wider cuts. Running the lube wide open most of the time. 
mh
"And the days that I keep my gratitude
Higher than my expectations
Well, I have really good days".    Ray Wylie Hubbard

donbj

I have cut a ton of western larch and it cut great. As others have mentioned it is probably the butt end you're cutting. I have run into that with d-fir and larch. 
I may be skinny but I'm a Husky guy

Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100CD, Husky 185CD

Crossroads

Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood. 
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

JRWoodchuck

I tried to do smaller firewood sections when I first noticed this problem but on the bigger logs it did seem to not work as well so I've just done 10' ish and that seems to help a lot. 
Home built bandsaw mill still trying find the owners manual!

Crossroads

I'll be cutting for this guy again in a few weeks, I know he has at least 1 more bigger WL, hopefully the order will allow us to cut some off the butt and see if it helps. I would guess the colder temperatures would probably help a little, but I'm not sure. 
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

donbj

Quote from: Crossroads on September 27, 2021, 09:44:23 PM
Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.
It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.
I may be skinny but I'm a Husky guy

Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100CD, Husky 185CD

Ventryjr

I cut some eastern larch that was stacked on the ground for about a year.  I just cut it into 6x6 posts for my sawmill roof and they are pouring out sap.   I was nailing in a header and got completely covered in sap.  
-2x belsaw m14s and a Lane circle mill.

Satamax

The other day, in firewood, i had one covering me in water, well, very "lean" sap! With the chainsaw. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

wisconsitom

I was stripping bark off a few hybrid larch poles cut last winter.  This stripping was early this summer.  The wood/bark was still so juicy I had flecks of sap all over my face and glasses.  Really wet stuff.  Smelled good too.

Too bad I never got to the other 400 or so that are still laying in piles.  Wonder when/how I'll get to all of that, especially given I can thin an equal number of stems out of those same stands this coming winter!

Larch is rich in a polysaccharide (like a whole bunch of sugar molecules chemically hooked together) called arabino-galactan.  This stuff also makes the wood less suitable for pulping, and a given amount of larch pulpwood must be mixed with a given amount of other wood types for that process to work.  This same substance is extracted and used as a dietary health aid for the human gut.  It acts as a soluble fiber.  I use it and think it beneficial.

And yes, this substance is concentrated near the butt.
Ask me about hybrid larch!

randy d

Tom we started cutting Tamarack today. I kind of like cutting it, saws well. its drying and keeping it straight is tough to do. It sure is pretty when it's planed up. Randy

Crossroads

Quote from: donbj on September 28, 2021, 12:46:16 AM
Quote from: Crossroads on September 27, 2021, 09:44:23 PM
Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.
It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.
That's interesting, hardly anyone calls it western larch, most people around here call it Tamarack. As for we're the trees came from, I don't know, they were trucked in is all I know. I didn't see any of the normal signs of stress in the wood like lifting, bowing or pulling. The only thing I had was pitch buildup. Interesting thing though, the last blade I ran on Saturday was only on the mill for a few cuts and had quite a bit of buildup on it when I pulled it off and coiled it up. I put it in the pickup last night to run on today's job. It rained last night and all of the buildup was broke down and whipped off easily. So, maybe diesel isn't the best thing to use on tamarack? 
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

Runningalucas

Quote from: Crossroads on September 28, 2021, 10:40:36 PM
Quote from: donbj on September 28, 2021, 12:46:16 AM
Quote from: Crossroads on September 27, 2021, 09:44:23 PM
Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.
It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.
That's interesting, hardly anyone calls it western larch, most people around here call it Tamarack. As for we're the trees came from, I don't know, they were trucked in is all I know. I didn't see any of the normal signs of stress in the wood like lifting, bowing or pulling. The only thing I had was pitch buildup. Interesting thing though, the last blade I ran on Saturday was only on the mill for a few cuts and had quite a bit of buildup on it when I pulled it off and coiled it up. I put it in the pickup last night to run on today's job. It rained last night and all of the buildup was broke down and whipped off easily. So, maybe diesel isn't the best thing to use on tamarack?
Yup, I've used the term Western Larch, and people often look clueless, but to say Tamarack, brings them back.   
Life is short, tragedy is instant, it's what we do with our time in between that matters.  Always strive to do better, to be better.

donbj

Quote from: Crossroads on September 28, 2021, 10:40:36 PM
Quote from: donbj on September 28, 2021, 12:46:16 AM
Quote from: Crossroads on September 27, 2021, 09:44:23 PM
Yeah these were the butt cuts. I've varying results with it even with the second and third logs in the past. At least with the bigger logs. I run straight diesel in my lube system and even with flooding the cut, it still has builds up with pitch. If I clean the blade before each cut with my knife, I at least will make a straight cut for 8-10'. I'm not familiar with the eastern larch. The western larch is also referred to as tamarack. As far as I'm concerned it can all go to firewood lol as it does make great firewood.
It's actually eastern larch that is referred to as tamarack. I'm curious, is this wood coming off a steep slope or other situation that changes things? I know slope trees can have a lot of stress in the butt sections causing what you are experiencing.
That's interesting, hardly anyone calls it western larch, most people around here call it Tamarack. As for we're the trees came from, I don't know, they were trucked in is all I know. I didn't see any of the normal signs of stress in the wood like lifting, bowing or pulling. The only thing I had was pitch buildup. Interesting thing though, the last blade I ran on Saturday was only on the mill for a few cuts and had quite a bit of buildup on it when I pulled it off and coiled it up. I put it in the pickup last night to run on today's job. It rained last night and all of the buildup was broke down and whipped off easily. So, maybe diesel isn't the best thing to use on tamarack?
It's a regional thing as well as for what people call it. My uncle called it tamarack as well. I guess being a scaler I lean to the proper names. The sap build up can be a challenge for sure. I have a couple butt ends here that went to the firewood pile, more for shake than anything else but the sap would have been ugly.
I may be skinny but I'm a Husky guy

Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100CD, Husky 185CD

JRWoodchuck

Gotta educate those people that we don't have Tamarack we have Western Larch. Like we don't have 'Red Fir' it's Doug Fir. 
Home built bandsaw mill still trying find the owners manual!

wisconsitom

Everybody calls my hybrid larch tamaracks.  Just one of those things.  
Ask me about hybrid larch!

donbj

Quote from: JRWoodchuck on September 29, 2021, 10:14:45 AM
Gotta educate those people that we don't have Tamarack we have Western Larch. Like we don't have 'Red Fir' it's Doug Fir.
And there's Jack Pine, whos proper name is Lodgepole Pine, Bull Pine is Yellow Pine.
I may be skinny but I'm a Husky guy

Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100CD, Husky 185CD

barbender

I wonder if the names in the Northwest, are due to the many midwesterners that hopped across the prairies to log the timber out there. 
Too many irons in the fire

Crossroads

Quote from: JRWoodchuck on September 29, 2021, 10:14:45 AM
Gotta educate those people that we don't have Tamarack we have Western Larch. Like we don't have 'Red Fir' it's Doug Fir.
Lol, the red fir took me awhile to get used to. 
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

Crossroads

Quote from: donbj on September 29, 2021, 09:21:03 PM
Quote from: JRWoodchuck on September 29, 2021, 10:14:45 AM
Gotta educate those people that we don't have Tamarack we have Western Larch. Like we don't have 'Red Fir' it's Doug Fir.
And there's Jack Pine, whos proper name is Lodgepole Pine, Bull Pine is Yellow Pine.
I had someone telling me the other day that jack pine and black pine are the same. I'd never heard of black pine 🤷‍♂️
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

beenthere

Young ponderosa pine used to be referred to as black jack pine. May contribute to some of the name confusion. 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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