Right to repair

[chet]

 US farmers will have the right to repair tractors and other agricultural equipment from John Deere without having to use the manufacturer's own parts and facilities, under an agreement the company signed Sunday with farm industry representatives. Curious If this will extend to forestry equipment.

[Old saw fixer]

That is good news! 
Now if we could get Stihl to do the same...

[chevytaHOE5674]

I question how much weight an agreement between mother Deere and Farm Bureau really holds. If JD doesn't hold up their end what penalties will there be? What sort of enforcement is there?

Many in the industry feel it is crap deal as the farm bureau isn't going to continue pressing and fighting for state and federal "right to repair" legislation that would actually have some teeth behind it and would extend to more than just Deere.

[Southside]

As someone who farms a decent chunk of ground I can honestly say Farm Bureau is not our friend. They are only interested in themselves. 

[SwampDonkey]

I've followed Louis Grossman on Youtube, an electronics repair guy from NYC. He's been in legislatures in 2 or 3 states pushing for RTR for all things computers. And so far this has been the kind of holdup he's encountered so far. A side note: In recent months he's had to move on to a different state because the city has become ridiculously expensive to even exist. He's showed live video of a lot of places that have closed up, boarded up, vacated and moved on. He can be a bit long winded on his videos. :D It's a long journey it seems.

[moodnacreek]

If they won't let you fix it don't buy it, maybe not that simple but that is where it has to go.

[sawguy21]

Will Deere release the software for a reasonable price? I resent being held hostage by the manufacturers but can see their point. They have spent millions developing and marketing their products only to have sweat shops dump clones on the market.

[charles mann]

Will Deere release the software for a reasonable price? I resent being held hostage by the manufacturers but can see their point. They have spent millions developing and marketing their products only to have sweat shops dump clones on the market.

I was watch a youtube vid of deere combine owner that had some kind of tech guru do exactly that, did some kind of tech hocus pocus and wrote a pirated code to be able to download the files and read the codes just so he could work on his own equipment. 

That is good news!  
Now if we could get Stihl to do the same...

That would be nice, but other than these m-tronic and efi saws, there isnt much thats special to the saws. I know there are maintenance and parts manuals out there for free or if your local stihl dealer is nice enough to give you the files, esp if they dont maintain the saws and other power equipment, its not like they are loosing money by allowing you to do your own maintenance. 

[beenthere]

Probably not all bad for John Deere. Now they won't be held responsible for warranty type work when someone uses non Deere parts and/or makes a mistake applying the released software. Either way, won't be cheap. 

[SwampDonkey]

A farmer had better know how to fix stuff. It was as true 50 years ago as it is today. It was a rare instance that my father could not fix his machinery. Saved a heck of a lot more than adding to the cost.

[chevytaHOE5674]

The American Farm Bureau Federation agreed to encourage state farm bureaus to "refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state 'Right to Repair' legislation....

That right there is a big fat lose for consumers...

[chevytaHOE5674]

A farmer had better know how to fix stuff. It was as true 50 years ago as it is today. It was a rare instance that my father could not fix his machinery. Saved a heck of a lot more than adding to the cost.

Thats like saying everybody who drives better know how to fix their car. When your CEL comes on do you scan, diagnose, and repair it yourself? 99% of people take their vehicles to somebody schooled/trained/experienced in servicing them.
Same goes for most farmers. Our job is to produce a crop and be good at it. Some of the best farmers out there wouldn't know the first thing about being a mechanic, and the best mechanics dont know the first thing about growing a crop.

[SwampDonkey]

No it isn't the same. Your farm is your living. You find every savings you can get. Worked that way around here, and it saved a bundle. There is a lot more stuff to fix than passenger vehicles. A potato truck or a skidder is used for making a living. A car or pickup truck is used for servicing, socializing, vacations, taxi, in most instances don't make money unless your a spray dealer or maybe even a Uber gig. :D Why bother fighting for work for repair if you'r not going to bother to fix anything?

[chevytaHOE5674]

Some farmers fix their own equipment many others bring it to independent shops or dealers for repairs. Some of the best farmers have no interest, ability, facilities, or business in repairing their own equipment (which supports an entire repair industry like myself and many others). The cost of speciality tools, software and setups makes many repairs actually cheaper to have somebody else do.

Right to repair access to software and diagnostic data doesn't just apply to the farmer or logger it applies to the numerous independent shops and road mechanics that keep things running.

Back in the day guys fixed all their own stuff because you could do it all with some sockets and a hammer. That isn't the case anymore.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, I know what RTR entails. And yes, there is always a cost benefit analysis making repair decisions. All depends on what your fixing a lot of and your skill set. Got the skills and the tools that are used often, fix it. Youtube is full of farmers telling their story of not being able to fix something they own, not because of skill or lack of tools. People aren't foolish. Well maybe some are. :D Like buying  $40,000 sawmills to saw 5000 ft of lumber and let them sit in the grass afterword for 10 years. What's wrong with a $2500 one for the job? :D Chances are in these parts a repair crew comes from 4 hrs away from Moncton, or further from Quebec or Halifax to fix your computerized equipment.  How long does it take that to add up? :D I can tell you straight up if I not proficient enough to fix most things on my farm growing potatoes or woodlot cutting wood, I won't be doing either occupation for a living. That hits my kill switch mighty quick. And thus I'm not running such computerized equipment. I can sure fix my saws for the pay check and my buggy for fetching the firewood in the fall. I stick with what I know, more $$ in my pocket. Same way I don't cut wood for give away prices either. Someone wrote something about diminishing returns, if I recall.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Thats what you would do and you don't farm. Ha

I farm almost 1000 acres and work on equipment for 40+ different "local" farmers, loggers, construction guys in my spare time. Most guys do their own maintance and simple repairs. When things require specialized diagnostic equipment or more than sockets and a hammer most pick up the phone and their checkbook. 

[SwampDonkey]

That's exactly why I don't farm. Can't fix it. Know enough to stay out of it.  :D

[chevytaHOE5674]

Sounds like a good choice. Thankfully there's plenty of farmers who think differently so that you can eat.

[SwampDonkey]

I grow several gardens actually. But I'm very low tech, manure, lime, very little processed fertilizer, creek water when needed. High yields. Not going to feed the world, just looking out for #1. :D

[charles mann]

I grow several gardens actually. But I'm very low tech, manure, lime, very little processed fertilizer, creek water when needed. High yields. Not going to feed the world, just looking out for #1. :D

Thats all you can do, look out for yourself and family, bc no one else will have your interest at heart.



If the software and interface systems werent so dang expensive, more mechanically inclined people would be working on their own stuff. But these manufacturers and dealers require a small gold monkey for the rights to use the software to work on the crap they designed that requires the software and special tools.
I used to pay for my own cummins-insight program till it got to expensive and the frequency i used it didnt justify the cost, and these manufacturers know that.
The cost of the software hopefully will come down, saving the farmers/ranchers money. But more than likely greed will step in and they will increase the cost of parts, tools and diag equipment, that prevents the little man from doing their own maint. 
It'll be a way for the manufacturers to still stay in control all the while complying (if they do it to begin with, with no oversight) with the RTR.

[Log-it-up]

I personally think it's the point of the hole thing and a person who want too and has ability too can , JD is acting like government and trying to pigeon hold you in there circle of manure 
I personally can't stand newer John Deere equipment there lack of power and functionality is horrible plus ( I'm manly a construction guy but have ran some newer ag equipment) on all there operator station is crappy and built for 5'6" 140lbs people  you would think if there going to lack on hydraulics and power they could at least make there seats hold up more than a year

[beenthere]

Lots of talk here about the company John Deere that people really know nothing about. I'll leave it at that.

And I'm thinking that those companies that manufacture helicopters don't let just anybody have their manuals and software to repair them. But just a guess, as I don't really know either. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, this won't help the discussion much, but I am reading along and can't help but think this is history repeating itself. When Henry Ford developed his business plan, part of it was that his customers would buy all their service and parts from his dealers. He was not happy when every farmer and backyard mechanic started making everything from tow trucks to portable sawmills from his vehicles. His designs were so simple and straight forward that the aftermarket industry was born overnight to make the parts that Ford would not, to modify their vehicles for other or 'enhanced' uses. Ford was not a happy camper. He may have never realized, or cared, that the ability to modify his vehicles actually made them sell better and hold more of the market.
 Ford wanted to decide how the cars would look, what they should cost, and thought people should just buy what he offered. You could get his cars in any color black you wanted.
 Ever since, vehicle companies have tried hundreds of ways to drive the service back to their dealers and would prefer to see the aftermarket and private mechanics go away. They see it as good business and still don't seem to realize that if they just let that thought go and accepted what their customers want, and cater to that, they may in fact become dominant. 
 Think about it: If there was a manufacturer out there who made vehicles and let their software, tools, and components be widely available through other manufacturers, wouldn't that be a huge selling point? Especially in today's world? Have they not figured out that their target demographic is people who pride themselves on taking care of themselves, are independent and self sufficient? These are people who need to produce every day in order to pay bills and feed their families. Trying to milk them for more money is truly counter productive to increasing sales.
 But then, I don't have a college degree in business and marketing, so what do I know? I am just a working schmuck.

[charles mann]

Lots of talk here about the company John Deere that people really know nothing about. I'll leave it at that.

And I'm thinking that those companies that manufacture helicopters don't let just anybody have their manuals and software to repair them. But just a guess, as I don't really know either.

Actually, some do. Some require proof of lease, ownership, repair station and probably other requirements. Bell, either lease agreement/ownership or repair station. Robinson, go to their website and download, no log in required. Boeing, lease/ownership, to include type certificate. I cant speak for sikorsky but im sure lease/ownership/tc. Those are the only manufacturers iv got exp on, away from the military, ie: civi ownership of former mil platforms.
 

[Southside]

Cessna is the same way now that you mention it.  My FIL had a small, commercial, fixed wing airline and I turned wrenches for him under his A&P now and then.  Anything we needed, wanted, etc was a click or call away. 

[charles mann]

Southside, now that you mentioned it, yep, as with lycoming, just click and download. And if i cant get the manuals direct from the manufacturer, i can make a call to people that can make a call to get me authorized access. 

[Ianab]

Aviation in general does seem very different from how Deere was operating. Possibly because it's much more Govt regulated than ground vehicles.  You HAVE to be certified to repair helicopters etc. I wonder if there would actually be a liability factor for the manufacturer is they withheld important service info from owners or their mechanics?   

" Your honour, Cessna never told my client's now deceased Father to check the wings for cracks every 1,000 hours." 

Modern cars are all computerised of course, but most of them have been reverse engineered and generic scanning software written for them. Every small town mechanic here has an aftermarket scanner and can work on most modern vehicles. While Toyota / Honda etc might not specifically support the aftermarket scanners, they don't actively try and shut them down with lawyers either, and will happily sell parts to anyone that rocks up to the parts counter. Toyota doesn't actively try and STOP you fixing your car

I guess the proof will be in how Deere actually acts in the future. Will they make a basic version if tge scan software and an adaptor available, along with a "field service guide" (for a sensible cost)? If they do, then great. If not, RTR is back on the table boys. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

JD will already sell you "service advisor" software and it can read DTC's and has troubleshooting guides. But last version I saw had no ability to re-program or reset things, also no ability to run many diagnostic functions... let's see if that changes...?

I have a TEXA unit that has the capability to do almost what a full dealer tech version of Service Advisor will do... but there are still some procedures that require a JD tech with their software to perform. Thankfully very few run anything JD around here. Ha

[chevytaHOE5674]

Lots of talk here about the company John Deere that people really know nothing about. I'll leave it at that.

Coming from a guy who doesn't really know what mother Deere is about. I'll just leave it at that. Ha

[charles mann]

Ianab, 
Not everyone has to be certificated, but at least one in 5 does. That is at least for the FAA, the version of the faa for your area and europe and canada have different requirements. 
I think the EASA has even more strict guideline to the aspect of what a certed mech can work on compared to the faa. I may have easa confused with canada air transport or whatever its called up north. But yes, things in the air tend to have a more strict and government control program and guidelines vs. ground units, esp ag units. 




The previous attempted comparison of ag to aviation and access to manuals is like comparing watermelons to ground ribeye. 

[Ianab]

Not everyone has to be certificated, but at least one in 5 does.

Understood. But the business as a whole has to be certified, and can have some "supervised" employees that are actually handling the spanners. Someone has to be certified, and they are legally responsible for the folks they supervise. As you say, they can't have one qualified mechanic and 100 semi-trained monkeys. 

Main point is that there ARE regulations and certifications that apply. for obvious safety reasons. Different scenario for tractors. If you get a gearbox overheat on a tractor, that might be bad, but you just stop. Gearbox overheat in a chopper is BAD. 

[rusticretreater]

This reminds me of the shake out that the auto industry had as the cars all moved to computerization.  Techs would have to buy a diagnostic tool set that had the control tablet/device, swapable leads for different auto brands and insertable cartridges to handle each auto computer system.  

Some auto systems were great, others were pretty poor.  But the techs or their shops spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on these systems only to be chasing the next cartridge/lead set to expand their diagnostic capabilities and to keep up with design changes to systems.  It just got to be too much.  It was impossible to have everything for every car.

So the Auto Service Industry Associations got together on right to repair and pushed through OBD I and then OBD II(On Board Diagnostics) which is where we are today.  All cars globally support the standard.  This is now the shakeout that is going on in the heavy equipment industry.  They may be able to maintain their own diagnostic software setups, but access should improve.  They have profit pressures from China, etc. so they will fight to keep the revenue streams.

The companies whine, wail and complain that it will destroy their factory service and drive them to bankruptcy.  But car dealerships still are same old stealerships.  The equipment dealerships will survive but some consolidation might happen.  

[North to Alaska]

I have a 2020 Branson 4520r tractor. It has no computers in it. It's an old school, well built tractor that i can fix myself. I can probably fix most issues but the harder stuff can be taken care of by any competent diesel mechanic. 
Mind you, Branson doesn't make million dollar combines or very large tractors. But they do make them sized right for smaller jobs like moving hay bales.

Plus it was heck of a lot cheaper than a similar sized Deere or Kubata.

[SwampDonkey]

Farming is a tough gig with a lot of head winds and uphills. :D

[kiko]

I think the point is being missed by a lot of people.  When a service code is displayed by the machine then typically all the additional you need is the wiring schematic  
. I fix these John Deere skidders and bunchers with electrical issues including up to the L and L2 without service advisor or any scan tool , short of reprogramming modules. Even stationary regen can be performed though the cab module.  The issue is the obsolete circuit boards that can't be replaced or repaired because that is the information that is what Deere is holding back.  This information should become open source once obsoleted.  Otherwise, every thing needed to repair a jd has already been provided by jd.  The wiring schematic can be purchased separately from the technical manual cheap and  downloaded instantly. People are stuck on this idea that you need a (brand specific) scanner to even run down a trouble code.

[chevytaHOE5674]

The forestry equipment must be different in that regard. On the AG side in many models many functions like a forced regen can't be done thru the onboard diagnostics.

Also haven't run into or seen any issue with anything obsolete or un-repairable on the electrical side as of yet. I'm sure as time goes on that it might come. But that seems to be more common in forestry equipment, many machines from the 2000s have obsolete electronics and often require complete retrofit of sensors and controls to keep them running.

[charles mann]

Not everyone has to be certificated, but at least one in 5 does.

Understood. But the business as a whole has to be certified

Maybe down under. 
Iv got my business, partnered with a guy i was in the army with, which he isnt certificated as a mechanic, only as a pilot, but he works under my a&p and our business is not a certified repair station, nor do we have to be.  Not every aviation repair place is certificated.
 Again, things down under fall under y'alls version of the faa and y'all have different requirements. 
But i agree, an aircraft cant just pull over onto a fluffy cloud and call AAA, unlike ground vehicles. 
I figured after 20 yrs of avn wrenching, the butterflies in my stomach would go away when we are doing maint. They havent and a co-work explained it best. He said that "if the nervousness isnt there, you have no business wrenching or finally goes then its time to hang up the wrenches. The butterflies help keep us in check and we are giving 120% to the job and if anything feels wrong, stop, go back till it feels right and repeat. If it still feels wrong, go back again, but proceed with a fresh set of eyes till the work feels right with all parties involved." 

[snobdds]

This really doesn't do much.  It's basically signing an understanding to do something, not a do something. 

Deere is still dug in on this.  They, rightfully so, don't want to see China copy their stuff. 

[mudfarmer]

Here's another article about the situation: Right-to-Repair Advocates Question John Deere’s New Promises | WIRED

I thought this was the funniest part

[...]states that the American Farm Bureau Foundation "agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state Right to Repair legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU."

;D

[SwampDonkey]

You can assume China already knows, maybe not something really recent. But this stuff isn't that secure.

[charles mann]

You can assume China already knows, maybe not something really recent. But this stuff isn't that secure.

I would agree, they probably already have some of it reversed engineered. 

[SwampDonkey]

You never know how much is true or fiction out there, but some really smart folks in the geopolitical foray think China is on the skids anyway. Personally, I wouldn't have a clue because some people feed you what they think might benefit themselves in some way.  I think a lot is speculative and conjecture. But hey, there are some great speakers and authors that make a living at both. Bound to get a hit once in awhile, just keep talking and writing more books. :D

[SwampDonkey]

Federal government in Canada announced right to repair on farm equipment and home electronics. But I think it's at the consultation stage first, not fully implemented. Also they plan on mandating USB-C charging ports for all new small handheld devices and laptops by the end of 2024. It's happening in Europe.

[sawguy21]

@Ianab You bring up an interesting point regarding aircraft service information availability and liability. When I worked for Canadian Helicopters we had an aircraft go down on final approach, the crew survived but were seriously injured. The Transportation Safety Board determined a simple roll pin on the fuel control failed allowing the engine to go to flight idle, they found the engine manufacturer was aware of the problem but failed to notify the operators. It didn't go well for them.