Looking for advice on Timber graders

[cabindoc]

Got a contract to provide 475 10' logs for a state project to the following standard.  Logs to be graded to ASTM D-3957 standard #1 Red pine, hand peeled or drawknifed, kiln Dried to 19%.  I'll let you digest that for as minute............I am in central NJ and have access to some red pine but have more access to a stand of White pine.  I don't think I will find #1 red pine in log form, agree? or disagree?  I also think I will have a hard time finding an ASTM grader familiar with grading logs as this isn't common in the log home industry, agree?  or disagree?

PS, I do have a Nyle kiln capable of drying the logs, but I'm concerned about checking and therefore won't make grade.

Sawyer Scott

[beenthere]

What might these red pine logs dried to 19% be used for? 

[cabindoc]

WPA camp of cabins, now part of a state forest.  The logs are to replace logs on the cabin that are rotted.

[mudfarmer]

Do you have a full copy of the ASTM standard? I see that it is "These practices cover the visual stress-grading principles applicable to structural wood members of nonrectangular shape, as typically used in log buildings. " And am curious why you don't think you can get 10' of whatever #1 is out of a red pine? It is a relatively common log building species and should be able to get -nice- 10ft out of butts. Are there diameter restrictions in the contract or standard? This is not a #1 beam, but a #1 non rectangular member as typically used in log buildings 

A rhetorical question I have also asked myself in the past - why did you get the contract if you didn't know what they want? 

Some states may require log home logs to be graded, something to look into and may track down a grader that way. I would carefully read the contract AND the standard and see if there is something concrete preventing you from doing the grading... Best of luck, sounds like a good time 👍

[cabindoc]

If I was asked to provide 8x8 sawn timbers, whereby I could cut them from butt stock, then yes, I could find clear.  But the requirement is whole logs, debarked only by drawknife, to match that of a hand-crafted log structure.  Problem is 8" dia.  Thats a top where I come from.  But my question is also asking foresters where do I look for a grader with this certificate?  I'll probably find the logs, but where do I find the grader?  

[Magicman]

Most assuredly the logs on the existing cabins were not graded to such.  You are dealing with today's environment vs yesterday's environment.  Can't get much deeper without getting political.  The draw knife labor might be expensive when probably CCC labor built them.

Someone is drawing up specifications that does not have a clue, they just want it to match.  Your decision may get down to "do it or don't".

[beenthere]

True what MM says.  

Once was asked to help a Gov't animal disease research lab applying military standards to bedding for an animal disease lab. The military specs required the all materials (in this case wood shavings) be heated to high temps to pass the concern that no foreign disease entered the animal disease laboratory. Think it was 1500 or 1600 deg F if I recall correctly. Regardless, the wood shavings would be long turned to ashes. 

As Lynn implied, some purchasing agents don't have a clue, may not care, but read it somewhere. 

[Ron Scott]

Check with the Log and Timber Homes Council for an experienced grader near you.
https://log-cabin-connection.com/log-standards.html#:~:text=All%20structural%20logs%20must%20be%20visually%20stress%20graded,baseline%20that%20can%20be%20referenced%20across%20log%20structures.

[cabindoc]

Thank you Ron, I'll look at that.

[cabindoc]

Most assuredly the logs on the existing cabins were not graded to such.  You are dealing with today's environment vs yesterday's environment.  Can't get much deeper without getting political.  The draw knife labor might be expensive when probably CCC labor built them.

Someone is drawing up specifications that does not have a clue, they just want it to match.  Your decision may get down to "do it or don't".

Yes your right.  Thing is, I supplied him with some of the information and inadvertently helped write the bid specs.  Hence specifying Red pine as opposed to another species.  Did I mention this is for a state job?  The Architects are reasonable, so I just have to show them that I can't find someone who can grade logs to the ASTM std, but, I found a grader from a log home mfr that will grade it "wall log" or "Header log" etc... and ask them to accept this,  And yes, the original logs were not graded and in fact they are likely not pine, but Chestnut.  I suspect I was successful in convincing the Architects to not call for Chestnut as it will likely be A) price prohibitive or B) Not possible to find in the qty needed.

[cabindoc]

True what MM says. 

Once was asked to help a Gov't animal disease research lab applying military standards to bedding for an animal disease lab. The military specs required the all materials (in this case wood shavings) be heated to high temps to pass the concern that no foreign disease entered the animal disease laboratory. Think it was 1500 or 1600 deg F if I recall correctly. Regardless, the wood shavings would be long turned to ashes.

As Lynn implied, some purchasing agents don't have a clue, may not care, but read it somewhere.

Thats hilarious that the military wrote that in the same specs as wood chips and no one said, gee, you think they will burn up?  

[cabindoc]

Do you have a full copy of the ASTM standard? I see that it is "These practices cover the visual stress-grading principles applicable to structural wood members of nonrectangular shape, as typically used in log buildings. " And am curious why you don't think you can get 10' of whatever #1 is out of a red pine? It is a relatively common log building species and should be able to get -nice- 10ft out of butts. Are there diameter restrictions in the contract or standard? This is not a #1 beam, but a #1 non rectangular member as typically used in log buildings 

A rhetorical question I have also asked myself in the past - why did you get the contract if you didn't know what they want?

Some states may require log home logs to be graded, something to look into and may track down a grader that way. I would carefully read the contract AND the standard and see if there is something concrete preventing you from doing the grading... Best of luck, sounds like a good time 👍

The way this came about, we only had 2 weeks to submit our bid and we spent all that time working out the time and the financial part.  At the time, I didn't know that finding a grader certified with ASTM D3957 would be a problem.  I have spoken to 3 log home suppliers and not one grade round timbers in this way.  The diameter requirement is 8-10" and yes, I printed out the ASTM D3957.  
I think I can get TPI to grade to the ASTM std, but I would have to secure all the logs and I don't want to buy the wrong logs. This is way I came to this community.  Do I need to ask the question in a different forum?

[beenthere]

What specific part of the standard do you need to meet the bid requirement? The ASTM standard D3957 is for establishing stress grades. 

Have those stress grades been established and do you have the visual criteria to follow? straightness, spiral grain allowed, decay allowed, knots allowed, etc. ?

You may try to contact the Forestry Center in Stevens Point, WI
 I believe their staff is active in red pine logs and also in tree and lumber grading so may have some good leads for you. 

Wisconsin Forestry Center
College of Natural Resources
800 Reserve St.
Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
715-346-3305
wfc@uwsp.edu

[mudfarmer]

I found this through a PDF about LTHC Log Grading Program, they helped develop the ASTM standard. Call these people https://www.tpinspection.com/auditing-services/log-home-services

[mudfarmer]

I see Ron pointed out LTHC already and you found TPI- I should read closer.

You seem unsure they will grade to the standard but the site says this:

Our grading rules and related design values are based on the nationally recognized standard ASTM D3957 (Standard methods for Establishing Stress Grades for Structural Members Used in Log Buildings).

You are concerned about having to get the logs first, about all you can do is your best to understand how they will be graded under the standard and shoot for that or better.

[beenthere]

TPI (Timber Products Inspection) grading rules may help. 

https://www.tpinspection.com/uploads/file/529/tps-log-grading-technical-guide

[cabindoc]

Thanx all. The std they want is #1 red pine, which as I understand is clear and no knots.  The irony is these are small single story 2 room cabins and I think the #1 is a higher grade then the rest of the cabin.  But hey, what do I know.....


Now to the other part.  Does anyone know of a plantation of smaller red pine trees in the Northeast whereby they may be willing to part with 30-50 of them?

Thanx  Scott

[beenthere]

red pine logs "clear and no knots". ???  Likely can't be found, as the log will contain the pith and the tree for certain had limbs which are "knots". 

Think you are painted into a corner. Hope not going to cost you $$$

[mudfarmer]

I am confused on #1 as well and maybe the buyer is too? The way I read it in that TPI link #1 is a grade for sawn on one side or round timbers, like piles, I read this as machined to be actually round. Whereas a log would be graded under the "wall log" section which does not have #1, #2 etc designations. This is all interesting and a good diversion for me if you can't tell 

What are the specs for "Premium wall log" in the ASTM? If "no knots" you would have had to prune them when they were 3-4" diameter or something tiny to get no knots on 8-10" log

[Stephen1]

I think I would go find a mill that saws 6x6 or 8x8 timbers from plantation forests. We have one down the road and he's saws all the supply for Home Depot garden timbers, he saws and they go to a PT plant. 
It would be easy to find good logs from they're pile. You might have to pay more than you want though. Just look for logs that have no visible knots. buy a few extra. 
I sawed all the wood for my decks from EWP I hand picked from the arborists pile,  and had a grader come in. His comment was I was using too good of wood for lumber. Easy to pick good logs. Read the rules a few times to understand. 
No knots = easy to hand peel also. 

[SwampDonkey]

There are likely a few back yard or field plantation pine around where the owner trimmed up the limbs when they were around 4". I see a few in my travels around here. The pruning mostly happens near the house yard or road frontage and after about an acre of pruning ambition fizzles out. Usually small plots under 3 acres where I see this. I don't know how common small plots of red pine were planted around your area. Where I live, red pine is not naturally occurring, I only see wild stands growing on soils with red clay. They'll grow here just fine, but I challenge anyone to show me a wild stand in the whole county. It is hardwood dominant here and red pine can't compete. Even on old field, if you let aspen and maple ingress your pine has had it. Common is aspen, red maple and birch quickly shooting up past, suppressing height growth and stunting it to worthlessness.

[cabindoc]

There are likely a few back yard or field plantation pine around where the owner trimmed up the limbs when they were around 4". I see a few in my travels around here. The pruning mostly happens near the house yard or road frontage and after about an acre of pruning ambition fizzles out. Usually small plots under 3 acres where I see this. I don't know how common small plots of red pine were planted around your area. Where I live, red pine is not naturally occurring, I only see wild stands growing on soils with red clay. They'll grow here just fine, but I challenge anyone to show me a wild stand in the whole county. It is hardwood dominant here and red pine can't compete. Even on old field, if you let aspen and maple ingress your pine has had it. Common is aspen, red maple and birch quickly shooting up past, suppressing height growth and stunting it to worthlessness.

Thank you.  Here in southern NJ we have a lot of Red pine stands they grow wild, not in a plantation.  Quality will vary quite a bit.

[cabindoc]

I am confused on #1 as well and maybe the buyer is too? The way I read it in that TPI link #1 is a grade for sawn on one side or round timbers, like piles, I read this as machined to be actually round. Whereas a log would be graded under the "wall log" section which does not have #1, #2 etc designations. This is all interesting and a good diversion for me if you can't tell 

What are the specs for "Premium wall log" in the ASTM? If "no knots" you would have had to prune them when they were 3-4" diameter or something tiny to get no knots on 8-10" log

And, is an 8" dia log considered a juvenile?  

[SwampDonkey]

Red pine does not grow naturally in NJ. It doesn't grow south of New York state. A little across the north of PA. Probably some real old plantation down there in NJ. NJ isn't much bigger than Prince Edward Island. The island has red mud, well known for it, it's got red pine.

[cabindoc]

Red pine does not grow naturally in NJ. It doesn't grow south of New York state. A little across the north of PA. Probably some real old plantation down there in NJ. NJ isn't much bigger than Prince Edward Island. The island has red mud, well known for it, it's got red pine.

okay, did not know that.  We have so much pine around here. Besides red, we have White, scrub, and I think I remember coming across some loblolly maybe.