RR tie sawing questions.

[Bibbyman]

Say I'm sawing a 7x9 tie out of a log that's marginal in size with a couple of inches of sweep –

Is it better to try to saw down to the 7" thickness from the "hump" and "toes" faces – thus trying to get the 9" wide "faces"?

Or is it better to try to saw the sweep faces down to 9" thick?

I've tried it both ways and not convinced myself one way works best.

Koppers buyer tells me I'm allowed 1" total wane on the 9" face.

Other considerations –

If I've got a log with more than a little sweep but it's "fat" enough to produce a clean 7x9 anyway,  I may run into more of a risk of the heart breaking out of the 9" face (either ends of the "toes" side or middle of the "hump" side) if I saw the 7" thickness out of the sweep sides. 

I know,  it's had to explain my question.  I need a picture or two.

Let me try it this way....

I roll a tie log onto my mill that has some sweep but should have a 7x9 tie in there somewhere,  what is the best method, steps, etc. to get it out of it?

[DanG]

Will it fit in the Blockbuster? :D :D

[Bro. Noble]

If there is any doubt in my mind which should be the 7" and which should be the 9",  I cut it 9X9 and evaluate the wand and potential grade board that could result.  I then cut a grade board off of one face,  and a pallet board off of the opposite face.  Hopefully it removes most of the wane and uses the best face for a grade board,  but sometimes you have to get a lower grade board to reduce the wane to acceptable levels.

[Ron Wenrich]

Let's look at this in a little different light.  The end use dictates that the wide faces of the tie will be put either face up or face down.  They're going to be pounding spikes into that wide face.  So, they want as little defect as possible there, especially where the spikes are put in.  Tie placement is fairly well automated, so don't count on someone picking the good side.

By contrast, the narrow side is just there for support.  You can get away with some defect there without having a problem a few years out. 

So, if you can, you want to put your hump in the 9" direction, so your toes and hump are better boxed and don't break through in critical areas.  Most times I find I can't make my tie on that type of log.

As for grade, I don't chase grade on a crooked log.  Too often you'll get pith in either the center of the board or on the ends. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

For what it's worth, the old guy that taught me to read a log, showed me how to dog the log on a circle mill carriage by placing the hump about 20° off Top dead center. In other words, lean the hump toward the headblocks about 20° from straight up. That will allow a little more wood to be placed into the tie, rather than have wain on the ends where the grade is very restrictive. If you can place the wain closer to the center on the thin sides, there should be no mark down of grade.

  I never had a market for 7 X 8's, only 6 X 8's and 7 X 9's. He made a top grade tie out of a very suspect log, being both small dia. and slight crook. Guy that took up the ties at the tie yard showed me a couple tricks too. NEVER had a mark down in grade.

[Bibbyman]

Will it fit in the Blockbuster? :D :D

Not if I can get a $20 tie and maybe a couple of boards off'n it.   ;D

[J_T]

Thanks FD I tried that and liked it  8)

[Bibbyman]

'Neather question.

Is or when it profitable to saw 10' logs down to 7x9 and then trim tie to 9'-2"?

How about 12'ers?

[Ron Wenrich]

It depends on the log.  For the most part, 10' 7x9s are worth less than 8 1/2' 7x9.  We saw the log down and keep the lumber log.  Then, trim the 7x9 back to a RR grade tie.  You have a really nice piece of firewood, and is pretty much what I use for my place.

12' logs are not quite as worthwhile to trim back. 

Here's my numbers.  For me to cut a tie into lumber and a cant, I will get 32 bf of lumber.  The tie is worth $20.  The cant will yield 14 bf @ $.38 or  $5.32.  I need to get an average of $.82/bf to breakeven on the balance of the boards.  1 Com red oak is about $.70-.75.  Why chase it?

On the 10'.  To cut it down, you will get 40bf of lumber.  The cant is worth $6.65.  You need to get $.61 average on the lumber to breakeven.

On the 12'.  Lumber yield is about 48bf.  The cant is worth $8.  Now, breakeven is at $.44 average.

Your yields might be higher.  And, you might not quite saw a log the same way if you're sawing ties vs grade.  You have to figure it out ahead of time.

For the most part, when the log starts to dip at or below 1 Com, its time to get rid of it.  You'll never make money chasing 2 Com or 3 Com.  Exceptions may be for hard maple and cherry.

[Bro. Noble]

We used to cut different lengths of grade lumber and ties as well as a few different diminsions of ties.  Since everything had to be sorted into different stacks,  we ended up with little stacks all over the place and some of them were getting pretty old before we got enough to make a full bundle ready for hauling.  NOw we cut all of our logs 8'8" except for an occasional 6 or 7 ' log to keep from wasting it.  Usually the leftover that would be usable is from the top and is small and lower quality.  We cut 7X9 ties and 6X8 ties. 

A little operation like ours just can't do some of the things a large operation finds feasible.

[Bibbyman]

I got a couple of 12' and longer logs that have a hole, rot, etc. in the heart of the butt.  Looks like they'd be a good candidate to saw down to 7x9 and then butt off.

[Dana]

I have been doing some research on making ties and making a bother of myself to a few FF members. Thanks for the help BroNobel and Bibbyman. I contacted a tie co. by e-mail asking if they bought in Michigan. They have responded with the following questions What species? What price for 7x9x 8'6"? Monthly production?

It is the monthly production question that I am wondering about now. What kind of minium order do the companies want to make it worth while to them?

[beenthere]

.............
It is the monthly production question that I am wondering about now. What kind of minium order do the companies want to make it worth while to them?

I suspect they want to have a good idea what you will be supplying monthly, so they can offer a price for a consistent supply.

Be cautious, as tie buyers have been known to write a contract that sets a price as long as you supply a given number of ties (probably a truck load or multiples of a loaded truck). They hold your feet to their fire, so to speak. What can then happen (seen it all too many times) is a sawmill operating full out just to make the minimum load quota for the month, and in so doing working long hours AND sawing high grade saw logs and veneer logs into ties.  This can result in turning your operation into only a tie mill, and you getting no grade lumber as it ends up in the large slabs because there is not time to do anything but saw full bore for the tie order. Also results in a lot of clear faces on the ties, which for the tie buyers is a real bonus as they get more high quality ties for the price they quote.
Probably not a usual pattern of doing business, but something to be careful about when answering the monthly production question.  Keep it within easy reach.  Can't blame them for wanting a steady supply, as they can plan their business better.

[Bibbyman]

We're out there learning a lesson on sawing ties.  It's pretty resacrovatin' to get one down to a 7x9 only to have the last cut expose some big ol' hole or something else as bad.  I've also sawed out a few only to find I've missed getting the heart in the "off" end.

We're trying to saw ties out of what would be pallet and blocking logs.  Some have come from a logger that's cutting veneer and stave logs.  Its good timber but we're getting what's left over.  Sometimes a big log will have one clear face and we'll get a few FAS boards off'n it.  But mostly low grade.

We sawed out about 30 white oak logs last week and got 1201bf of grade.  129bf went FAS, 488 bf  1C, 572 2C and 12bf 3C with no "outs".  Obviously I would have liked it to all be FAS but I thought they graded it fair. We'll get $682.52 out of the 1201bf so that's $570/mbf.

Son and I sawed an abbreviated schedule yesterday and 9 good ties and about 600bf of 4/4 out of about 15 logs. We had one tie that could be butted back to 8'8" and maybe go and the rest we sawed down to 6x6 as we get some orders for them from time to time.

It's going to take a lot longer than I thought to get a load together.

The Koppers guy we were dealing with indicated he'd come and pick up less than a load of 7x9s by 9'-2" or 8'-8".   I guess as long as he could make up a load on his "milk run".

[Bibbyman]

Here is our production for the third week of October.  32 7x9 by 9'-2" and 4 7x9 by 8'-8".  Not shown are about 6 culls.

[SawDust_Studios]

Do you buck all your grade logs at 8' 8" so you can take a tie out of it if it loses grade toward the middle?  We don't do much tie sawing, so I'm wondering if we should stop making all our logs 8'6" so we can take ties from the center.

[Bibbyman]

We're just getting started and don't know nothing...

Most of our 8' logs come in 8'-4"- 8'-6"  too short for 8'-8" ties.  These four 8'-8" are from 9' and 10' logs that couldn't quite make 9"-2" because of some defect  - like too much double heart.

Most of the logs we get wouldn't even make the "grade".  They are what I'd call pallet and blocking logs.

We're still waiting for our tie logs to come in.  So far,  the logger brought us one truck load of logs.  Out of that load of 40 logs only 9 logs would make ties.  Another part-time logger is to start bringing us tie logs next week.

[SawDust_Studios]

You still know more than I do  :

I was under the assumption you can still do 8'6" for ties too.  But then the only ties we make, and its rare is for a local company that creosodes (sp ???) them. So they are more landscaping, etc.  Still the same size, 7x9 and 6x8, etc. 

We need a Sawing ties FAQ and manual  :D  Or at least I do...  As I found it seems to be better than trying to saw 4/4 from heartwood.

What do you pay down there for a load of tie logs? 

[WH_Conley]

Good lookin ties there Bibby. I would be interested in seeing the culls, you might be grading too hard. That is not to say try to put junk on the buyer, your expectations might be higher than his.

[J_T]

Tye buyer here wants seven and a quarter x nine and a quarter no more than one inch of wane no shake on both ends . I put 20 in a bundle and they will take split hearts so I can cut more than one tye per log for now  ??? New Co in town got four mile haul 8) Been cutting gum mostley.Twenty two bucks each

[Bibbyman]

Want's then 7x9 no over or under - as far as I know..

No holes that you could stick you finger into.

No rot. (He used a small pocket knife to peck at suspect places.)

Heart at least 1" inside edge.  Or no heart at all.  (Except for sycamore that has to have boxed heart.)

Double heart OK if both at least 1" inside edge.

1" max wane total. (must have 8" face)

No bark on faces.  No more than 3" of in-grown bark on a forked end - not to run out the face of the end.

No shorter than 9'-1" and no longer than 9'-5" - trimmed square with no spur or step.

Heart crack in end no longer than 3" and not out of edge and no wider than 1/4".

I'll try to get some pictures of those I thrown out.  I thought I'd keep them to the side and ask the buyer about them.

[Bibbyman]

Here are some pictures of ties I've put aside to ask the buyer about them.



This one has three ugly knot holes - all about 2" dia.  They are only about an inch deep.  Look like broken off, grown over limbs.



The one in the center has a "mouse hole" in the heart that runs deeper than the screwdriver that's on top of it.  The other two have the hearts run out of the end.

[Tom]

What is the reason for their not liking the heart-wood to show?   Is it because it doesn't take treatment, or that it is physically inferior?

A tie from an old tree might be difficult to obtain without including heart-wood.   I've sawed some old oaks that had only a couple of inches of sapwood on them.

[beenthere]

I'm thinkin Bibby means the pith when he says 'heart', and it not running out on a face. Tough to avoid heartwood (heart) on a face, I'd think.  Sometimes people talk about boxing the heart, and I take it as meaning the pith.

[Tom]

Yes, we have an abundance of Heart Check here that must be cut around. That's the crack that runs through the pith in a single line or a "Y" or a "+" or other confounded configuration that makes it difficult to get good lumber and a solid cant too.

One of the sawing techniques used by grade sawyers is to place the check at a 45 degree angle so that it can be trimmed from the edge of the boards.  It also helps to contain it in the cant (tie) since it runs from corner to corner rather than side to side.   There is more room for it there.

When sawing construction wood, we usually keep the heart check parallel to the blade so that we can enclose it and the pith in one or two boards. Since we are generally sawing through and through when we approach the ends of the check.