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Log Prices?

Started by jerryatric, May 01, 2011, 12:10:36 AM

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dnash and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Hogdaddy

I would assume that @nativewolf meant 6-8" understory trees.  If not, he's cutting some HUGE timber! 
If you gonna be a bear, be a Grizzly!

nativewolf

no no I was speaking of height!  Not DBH.  Too much to write now but we have been really digging into the science of WO and it is freaking interesting.  It is very picky, very much adapted to fire.  So basically if the seedling/saplings are not over head height they wont keep up with YP regen in most good sites.  Not a blanket statement but close to it.  So you want to see a bunch of willowy young wo stems if you open it up.  Then open to between 30-50% light for 10-15 years then do final overstory removal and presto...a new WO forests under WO.   Some of the background can be found on The Hardywoods podcast (it is ours- it is a labor of love, not $ so hopefully this is kosher).  2 amazing WO experts also others, we will try to do 1/week.  

https://www.youtube.com/@thehardywoodspodcast
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nativewolf

Quote from: teakwood on June 08, 2024, 09:49:30 AM
Quote from: nativewolf on June 08, 2024, 07:18:41 AM6-8' wo saplings in the understory.


Diam?? Really? How big are the trees to cut?
saplings...height.   Do I look like @Skeans1 ?  Diameter...gesh ffcheesy
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Old Greenhorn

Thanks for the link on that podcast. I am listening out of order, but very enjoyable. Listening to 'fire and Oak' right now. Is that you doing the hosting? Nicely produced.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

nativewolf

we are spending quite a bit of time on the podcasts, great guests but there is a lot of editing, lot of work making it sound good.  Hoping to have a really professional educational series.  

The major theme is that we have put our natural forests out of kilter.  We have lost our young forests, no wildfires or native american  slash and burn ag.  Especially the amount of young WO is in decline.  So, we need to cut more than ever otherwise species such as the golden wing warbler will be in trouble.  The fact that it exists proves we had more open forest land in the past.  

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barbender

 I love reading (or listening) to historical works. One thing that fascinates me, is that although we've kind of been taught to think that North America was an untouched wilderness, in reality Natives had huge impacts on the landscape and were probably much more active in land management then we've been led to believe. And fire was their main management tool. 

 I've read that most of the prairie areas east of the Mississippi were due to fire management by Natives. Really, anything east of the Missouri will grow timber if not burned or otherwise managed. Look how eastern red cedar is running rampant in so many areas.

 Another theory on the "unspoiled wilderness" scenario. Many of the first eyewitness accounts were from explorers that came into areas where the Natives had already been decimated by smallpox and other introduced diseases. Mortality rates among many were well over 50%. The theory is that what white explorers were seeing was land that had went wild after native societys had collapsed from massive loss of population. I'm not suggesting that the Natives had large farms or estates, either. Just that they were active in burning areas for better game habitat and farming ground.

 Lewis and Clark found that when they got to the Mandan villages, two of the three towns had been abandoned due to so many deaths from Smallpox. The animals they encountered upstream up to the Three Forks, had no fear of man and they also saw zero Natives until they encountered the Shoshone at Three Forks.

 When Daniel Boone entered Kentucky, there were no native villages. Tribes were using the area as a hunting ground, but there were no settlements, which is very odd for a place that is pretty conducive to human settlement and farming.
Too many irons in the fire

Southside

It does not take long for the woods to fill back in thick here in the east.  The Allagash and St John Rivers in Maine are a perfect example.  Under 100 years ago there were significant farms all along the river banks that served as depots and supported hundreds of crews. Today one can find remnants of buildings, if you know where to look, but aside from that standing there one would think it has always been in timber.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
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barbender

 No, it sure doesn't take long. I know of several town sites that my Grandpa told me were operating villages when he was young, and now you would never be able to tell they were ever there. 
Too many irons in the fire

Ron Scott

I know of several small-town sites that have become National Forest land and planted over to pine trees. I'd like to visit some of these sites again as they are now probably in their second thinning's.
~Ron

nativewolf

Quote from: barbender on June 10, 2024, 12:24:33 PMI love reading (or listening) to historical works. One thing that fascinates me, is that although we've kind of been taught to think that North America was an untouched wilderness, in reality Natives had huge impacts on the landscape and were probably much more active in land management then we've been led to believe. And fire was their main management tool.

 I've read that most of the prairie areas east of the Mississippi were due to fire management by Natives. Really, anything east of the Missouri will grow timber if not burned or otherwise managed. Look how eastern red cedar is running rampant in so many areas.

 Another theory on the "unspoiled wilderness" scenario. Many of the first eyewitness accounts were from explorers that came into areas where the Natives had already been decimated by smallpox and other introduced diseases. Mortality rates among many were well over 50%. The theory is that what white explorers were seeing was land that had went wild after native societys had collapsed from massive loss of population. I'm not suggesting that the Natives had large farms or estates, either. Just that they were active in burning areas for better game habitat and farming ground.

 Lewis and Clark found that when they got to the Mandan villages, two of the three towns had been abandoned due to so many deaths from Smallpox. The animals they encountered upstream up to the Three Forks, had no fear of man and they also saw zero Natives until they encountered the Shoshone at Three Forks.

 When Daniel Boone entered Kentucky, there were no native villages. Tribes were using the area as a hunting ground, but there were no settlements, which is very odd for a place that is pretty conducive to human settlement and farming.
The episode with Dr. Dey should appeal to you.  We tried very hard to make them enjoyable.
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barbender

Wyatt, I will check it out!👍
Too many irons in the fire

SwampDonkey

2/3rds of the provincial farmland that was ever cleared are now back to woods. I know several cemeteries where woods grew up around, been cut off again for timber and growing again to woods. A lot went back to public land ownership, some became mill ground. Some is now 5th or 6th generation, where they left that life behind and had to go off to war then find new ways to make a living. The NB power commission here made a lot of jobs for a few years where land expropriation was involved for building dams.  Family got jobs as compensation. There was never going to be much by the way of money for lost land. So you might was well get a job out of it. Have seen old photos around the town of Woodstock, farms cleared all over the hills on both sides of the St John. Lots of orchards as well in the mix. Now mixed woods, birch, red maple, popple, softwoods and has been most all cut off for wood again in the last 40 years, chasing the dollar. A lot of disappointment after taxes and everyone else's cut is taken. Growing new wood now again.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

ehp

Not been cutting alot cause it rains almost everyday here but price went up abit more last week per thousand 

nativewolf

We are on a job a bit further south than normal and log prices really suffer.  So, using backhauls to access higher price markets.  RO is holding at $750-800 in PA, YP about $700, not sure about soft maple. 

WO stave pricing remains higher in OH than VA.  So, backhaul the stavewood as well, we stop putting logs on when the driver says it is enough.  A couple of heavy loads last week.  We're sending some pretty rough stuff along with a few nicer sticks.  If @stavebuyer is ever around I'd be curious on his input.  Independent really favors a long stick with the butt attached. 

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Hogdaddy

I heard that Independent has shut down 14 stave mills that were suppling them with staves. There seems to be a bottle neck in the warehouses being built, so barrels have slowed down. Don't know for sure how long it will be. Stave log price is down, but holding on for now. Also heard that barrel orders are coming in September instead of December this year, don't know if that will have a good or bad effect on prices.  Other prices are holding on for right now. 
If you gonna be a bear, be a Grizzly!

nativewolf

I didn't know there were 14 stave mills in the independent group?  I know they took over brown foreman stave mills.  

In VA we have Speyside which is a french group that used to buy barrels from whisky industry for French wine.  Then they went into cooperage themselves and produce staves.  We had a little stave mill here but they shut down.   So it is critical for us to get out of the local market and that means a long ride, Ohio is closest.
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Hogdaddy

There was 14 mills that sold staves to Independent from what I understand. Like small local mills. That's what I was told and from a pretty reliable source. 
If you gonna be a bear, be a Grizzly!

ehp

If I get even big bur oak or white oak cut into 16 fters that are saw logs I'm getting as much for them as some of the veneer mills want to pay for real white oak veneer 

nativewolf

I believe you Ed.  Some veneer buyers are crazy, trying to low ball.  Others offer up real prices.

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nativewolf

Quote from: Hogdaddy on July 04, 2024, 10:30:39 AMThere was 14 mills that sold staves to Independent from what I understand. Like small local mills. That's what I was told and from a pretty reliable source.
Gotcha, I believe you.  I feel for those little mills, I'm shocked that Independent could get so much market share.  It's not a good thing, IMO.
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Hogdaddy

I heard today that white oak and white oak stave logs are gonna fall off a right smart for where they're at.  I hope it's not right, but is was from my best source.  smiley_thumbsdown
If you gonna be a bear, be a Grizzly!

nativewolf

Lots of people saying same thing here in VA.  Lots.  Speyside pulled back and so has Wilson.  

Other guys that export think the export demand keeps it going.
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