making money the thin kerf way ?

captain_crunch · January 12, 2011, 01:03:50 AM

Full demention rough sawn lumber is my only selling point 1X12 is full inch by 12" as well as wiered dementions cut 12 -1 1/4X 6 1/2 for a fellow to match his sheathing boards from old shop to new one. Just wished I knew how to price the sawing cant charge by hr beings I may have to chase cows out of mill once or twice and I can't compete with big boys who live on over run as per what you can recover out a 40 ft log(the only length that brought any money) beings they will ony pay 125.00 per thousand under 20 ft compared to 550.00 fer 40's and the reason why is very little over run in short logs so I saw the short ones

jimparamedic · January 12, 2011, 08:08:15 PM

1" and under is still an 1" 1.5" and over is 2" works good for me because it costs the same every time the saw goes through the log.

captain_crunch · January 13, 2011, 12:22:32 AM

Really sawing by the linear ft would be the best way if you are cutting someone elses trees. Fourms tool computes 1.25 boards as well as 1.50 so I just use it on lumber cut from My trees

Ron Wenrich · January 13, 2011, 06:27:32 AM

Quote from: jimparamedic on January 12, 2011, 08:08:15 PM
1" and under is still an 1" 1.5" and over is 2" works good for me because it costs the same every time the saw goes through the log.

But, doesn't it take the same amount of time to cut the 2" way as the 1" way? Sounds like you're charging double for making the same cut in, but pulling more wood on the 2". Just saying.

Chuck White · January 13, 2011, 09:04:08 AM

Sometimes you have to figure in the handling when it comes to 2" vs 1".

A 2x6 is twice the weight as a 1x6.

Same as the extra handling when making 4 cuts to saw out an 8x8 beam, the length of your mill.

Doing that, the cuts are relatively cheap, then comes the issue of the extra handling.

Ron Wenrich · January 13, 2011, 11:04:26 AM

Using that argument means I should charge more for cutting 1" oak than 2" aspen. Pine 8x8 would be cheaper priced than 8x8 oak.

paul case · January 13, 2011, 01:48:01 PM

i wonder how the lumberyard prices their lumber. i promise an oak 8x8 would be much higher than a pine 8x8 in any lumberyard. you may say we are not in competition with them but us small custom mills are. if my trailer flooring was much higher than treated lumber at the box store, i would loose quite alot of customers.pc

r.man · January 13, 2011, 01:59:22 PM

If a customer wanted all long and large and extra help or machinery was needed then a extra charge would be levied. Oak vs pine might not incur an extra charge but that is probably because your charge rate is averaged between easy and difficult, hard and soft. If two customers wanted all their cutting at the opposite ends of the scale then the easier of the two should probably get a break. That means the harder of the two should pay more. If life was fair. Which it isn't.

Ron Wenrich · January 13, 2011, 02:46:08 PM

Quote from: paul case on January 13, 2011, 01:48:01 PM
i wonder how the lumberyard prices their lumber. i promise an oak 8x8 would be much higher than a pine 8x8 in any lumberyard. you may say we are not in competition with them but us small custom mills are. if my trailer flooring was much higher than treated lumber at the box store, i would loose quite alot of customers.pc

But, aren't you talking about sawing costs? Oak is higher than pine because the base value of the log is higher. Same goes for the lumber. The base is higher, so they charge more.

ely · January 13, 2011, 02:52:40 PM

i get .25 cents bdft for sawing the customers logs into lumber, no matter what diminsion they request.
if someone is wanting their logs sawn out into large beams or whatever, then we will come to an agreeable price before i saw.( meaning i do not charge someone by the board ft when sawing the large beams out.)

Magicman · January 13, 2011, 04:15:01 PM

Some sawyers here charge more for sawing 1" vs 2". My charges are "across the board". Same price for sawing lumber, no matter what dimension. I scale each board. 1" or less = 1". 1"-2" = 2", etc. Cants and beams are sawed hourly rate.

I use a Saw Contract and each item is discussed prior to sawing. I have never had a charging/billing issue.

captain_crunch · January 14, 2011, 01:24:27 AM

Magicman
I agree with you Same amount of fuel and time no mater thichness. I saw 1 in min so anything I goof and make under 1" is a freebee in my book. But I got to get smarter and quit ending up with a 2X3 dog board :

:

So far not much market fer that demintion ??? ??? ???

Magicman · January 14, 2011, 08:20:45 AM

Since you run a circle mill, I have no answer for your dog board thickness.

With a band mill, if you start at the right place, the dog board will be the same thickness as the rest. I use a "Cheat Sheet" which list my starting points, but the newer computers eliminate this need. I think they are the ones cheating. ;)

metalspinner · January 14, 2011, 09:18:21 AM

From the point of view of the customer, I can't understand getting charged extra 1/4's for wood not in the board. If I wanted walnut logs sawn at 6/4 would I be charged for 8/4? Why would different math be used in "framing" lumber? Often we use yellow poplar up here for framing so should the softwood scales, ideas, whatever's apply to poplar "framing" lumber?

At the end of the day having material custom sawn for me is a very cost effective way towards a large pile of material. So certain "upcharges" can be added to a bill for a man to stay in business and is understandable. But paying for extra wood not in an actual board would be a tough pill to swallow. Those extra 1/4's can add up to an extra board in the cant. Thereby adding more $$ to the bill (overrun) for the sawyer.

All that being said, quality, attitude, and professionalism can more than make up for fuzzy math come billing time.

Ron Wenrich · January 14, 2011, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: Magicman on January 14, 2011, 08:20:45 AM
Since you run a circle mill, I have no answer for your dog board thickness.

With a band mill, if you start at the right place, the dog board will be the same thickness as the rest. I use a "Cheat Sheet" which list my starting points, but the newer computers eliminate this need. I think they are the ones cheating. ;)

The same works for circle mills. I've heard it called inside out sawing. You simply start with a target size and build a stack with board thicknesses and kerf allowance. The tricky part comes when you want to saw multiple thicknesses. I'll often have to saw 5/4 in F1F and btr, and 4/4 in the lower grades. You have to learn how to read a log. And sometimes you end up with a shim cut.

paul case · January 14, 2011, 09:58:59 AM

mm ,
for us guys without a computer we just have to do a lot of figuring or writing it down when we get to the ''cant'' cuts. if you can remember you are dong well. if a pencil is handy i write it down on the blade guard rite in front of me . i am half your age and i cant remember.

metalspinner,
as far as being charged for a2'' board and recieving a 1.5'' board, people do this every time they buy lumber in the store. they call them 2x4 s and they are1.5''x3.5''. this is why we always charge 1'' and down as 1'' and 1'' to 2'' as 2''. this means that 6/4 is charged as 2'' .pc

metalspinner · January 14, 2011, 10:44:26 AM

Quoteas far as being charged for a2'' board and recieving a 1.5'' board, people do this every time they buy lumber in the store. they call them 2x4 s and they are1.5''x3.5''. this is why we always charge 1'' and down as 1'' and 1'' to 2'' as 2''. this means that 6/4 is charged as 2'' .pc

There are a couple of difference, though. The material at the big box is finished, not roughsawn. It's also KD. And I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of acquiring logs, labor, stacking, paying sawyers, building code questions, etc, etc. One isle over from the framing lumber are the hardwood stacks where they are charging $10+ BF for flatsawn redoak. Are you charging the same for that product?

I am an enlightened woodworker that sees all the advantages of hiring custom cutters to saw my own logs. Some of which are quality of product, supporting local business, developing relationships, going green, blah, blah, blah. Not to mention it's downright fun!

These questions I bring up are not to be argumentative. I'm just digging a little deeper for a better understanding. It is my hope to someday own a mill, so all of this will be filed away in my memory for further discussion and developement. It is wise to keep the customer's point of view in mind when making your business policies. Does the value of the end product make sense for a continuing relationship? If you and your customers are in agreement on the terms and conditions, that is the most important thing.

Magicman · January 14, 2011, 02:31:57 PM

Chris, I made a broad statement and for simplicity sake lumped flat sawed and framing lumber together. I really shouldn't have.

For flat sawed lumber, I scale exactly as you stated. For dimensional framing lumber I scale as I stated above. No, it's not planed and KD'ed, but it isn't "Box Store" price either. I scale a 1.5"X3.5" as a 2X4. 5.3 board feet. My saw price is about 1/3 of what store price is.

Bottom line, if I provide quality lumber and the customer and I both understand the cost and are satisfied, all is OK.

Chico · January 14, 2011, 03:15:45 PM

Cost s more to cut a thousand foot of 4/4 than it does a thousand ft of 8/4 or timbers should have a pay scale for each jmo and as far a lumber measurement it's an accepted practice on dressed lumber the plus is a much more uniform pc of lbr vs roughcut and yes roughcut can be very close but not as close as a planer set up correctly

backwoods sawyer · January 16, 2011, 12:22:11 AM

I measure the whole stacks at the end of the day rather the pieces x length x thickness ect. I also charge the same for a beam as I would for a stack of thinner boards that totals the same board footage. If my hourly rate total is less then the bft total, I charge the lesser of the two. However, for hardwoods it is hourly as is handling over sized logs.