Swing mill builders

[bandmiller2]

Would it be practical to mount a swing mill blade directly on say a 15hp three phase motor shaft.??It would sure be easy to build a mill like that and eliminate the gearbox.If balanced it shouldn't be too hard to pivot horiz. to vert.Frank C.

[scsmith42]

Frank, the problem that you'd have is the diameter of the electric motor.  You'd need either a very large diameter blade, a very long shaft on the outlet of the motor, or have to accept a limited amount of cut depth (due to the log hitting the side of the motor).

[Fla._Deadheader]

Isn't Dangerous Dan's mill direct drive, electric ???  Can't remember ??? :

[HOOF-ER]

Yes his is direct drive. search his old threads. There is video of him running it.
It would simplify the process and make fewer parts.

[Captain]

Nope guys, sorry but his is not direct drive but offset and the arbor is run by pulleys for the reasons Scott stated.  There is actually a vid of it in the for sale section. Tried to bring it here but I made a big mess.

Captain

[firecord]

Dan has several U Tube videos. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/SawmillShack

[Firebass]

Those are heavy motors.  I've always thought it would be too much mass to swing without some type of assist or hydraulics to rotate the carriage.   If you do decide to go that route make sure you can make a guard that will work when the motor is tipped up and the blade is in the horizontal position.  Maybe by mounting the motor closer to the operator you could get enough clearance.  You definitely would have to run a separated saw shaft. 



 

Look to the left here and imagine there were a motor about 1/2 the diameter of the the blade.
<----

Firebass

[bandmiller2]

Thanks guys, guess if it was that easy you'd see alot of that design,although look what a skillsaw does with a 71/4" blade.Probibly if a fella was content with verticle cuts not much over 2" deep it would work.Frank C.

[Hilltop366]

I guess one factor is the motor would have to be turning the right speed.

If it does would it be possible to put the blade shaft in line with the motor shaft and use a lovejoy coupling in between them?

[Fla._Deadheader]

I have seen long shaft motors ???  How much longer would the shaft have to be ???  It could be reinforced in the front or back for a support bkt. ???  You would have the width of the hub to work with, right ???

[bandmiller2]

Was looking at  Dans vidio, his electric motor is not that big in diameter and it appears from the pulley size to be turning the blade at motor RPM.A Lucas 10" cut blade is about 25" in diameter.Mounted on the motor shaft you could probibly cut 4" deep on a verticle cut.The simplicity of mounting the saw arbor directly to the motor shaft is hard to ignore even if their was a loss of cutting depth.The arbor could be made from a taperloc sprocket with the end of the motor shaft drilled and tapped for a safety bolt.Frank C.

[James P.]

Bandmiller2, the old direct drive tablesaws used a smaller diameter motor but most were 3 phase. I don't know the largest ever used that way, but I have seen 5hp that weren't more than 8 inches in diameter. I think they make up for it in length.

[mick]

I have a 15 hp 3 phase high speed steel cutting saw that I would like to use for a swingmill.
It has a blade attached directly to the shaft. The motor is long and thin. My plan is to buy a Lucas blade and machine up an adaptor which fits to the shaft and also mounts the Lucas blade. Does anyone know what RPM a Lucas mill blade runs at while operating.

Mick.

[tjhammer]

have been watching the different swing mill forums from jan, last year am now gathering up mp stuff for a build,I am going by firebass data maybe not as heavy but I do have a two in truck axel for my arbor(man a cat couldn't scratch it) can't decide on a lucas 8 in or a captain 10 in,anyone got any thoughts on gearing I found a 1to1 gear box fire bass whats the outside dia. of your timming pulleys
the hammer

[sigidi]

Wow! where do I start?

OK, my first thoughts if you want a swingblade it is for it's flexibility, limiting it to cut 4" makes it very restricted and if you're going to all the R&D effort why restrict yaself so much?

With a 4" max vertical cut a third of ya log will be QS as you are limited by the vertical max depth.

As bandmiller said Lucas 10 mills sawblades are 24.9" basically 25" or 634mm.

Skillsaw - ask yaself why they aren't produced anymore.

My plan is to buy a Lucas blade and machine up an adaptor which fits to the shaft and also mounts the Lucas blade. Does anyone know what RPM a Lucas mill blade runs at while operating.

Mick.

From swingblade history Lucas have found a one piece drive-shaft and blade hub is definitely the safest method of attaching the blade - if/when you do machine an adaptor keep it in mind and make it from one piece. As for RPM different size blades have different speeds - hence the reason for not being able to throw a 6" onto a 10". take a look at this;



That is not from Lucas, but from the sawblade manufacturers - Central Saws here in Oz.

Anyone out there who uses a swinger will understand the need for that gas strut to dampen centrifugal forces, if one adds the weight of the engine to the swing too, wouldn't that increase the CF experienced? Besides being a mongrel to swing??

[tjhammer]

firebass did tinman ever get his electric swing making saw dust yet?

[Firebass]

No, If I remember right he had to give it up cause he had a little one coming and was redirecting his funds.

Sure would like to hear DangerousDan chime in with a pros and cons on the electric swingmill since he's already made one.

Firebass

[tjhammer]

firebass


seen dangerous dan on u-tube that electric was sure making some saw dustIhave a question on your saw about the timing pulleys and belt can't locate a 2in belt or pulley mcmaster carr only shows 1 1/2 belt and pulleys called them thats all they had would 1 1/2 timming belt stand the pressure and how do you tension your timing belt. have been trying to buy a 10in saw from the captain haven't made connection yet,I have read the old fourm from last year several times and learn something new every time I read it wish I could been in on it seems like it was going hot and heavy for a while and just quiet

tj

[Firebass]

firebass


seen dangerous dan on u-tube that electric was sure making some saw dustIhave a question on your saw about the timing pulleys and belt can't locate a 2in belt or pulley mcmaster carr only shows 1 1/2 belt and pulleys called them thats all they had would 1 1/2 timming belt stand the pressure and how do you tension your timing belt. have been trying to buy a 10in saw from the captain haven't made connection yet,I have read the old fourm from last year several times and learn something new every time I read it wish I could been in on it seems like it was going hot and heavy for a while and just quiet

tj

I think I purchased my timing belt and pullly's at McGuire Bearing in Portland Oregon.   I've never had the belt stretch or slip a cog.  I seem to remember that 2" was needed for up to 25 or 30 HP.  Any good bearing supply house can give you that detail.  No need for tentioners on those type belts the belts have a polyester cord that will not stretch.  You simply set them up tight the first time and thats it.  If your going to use fixed bearing you need to figure the center distance.   Hmmm.. . I think its... 1/2 the Belt length minus  pitch diameter of your matched pulley size is your shaft center distance.
   As for just being quiet.... theres still a few builds going on usually everyone get bogged down at the swing mechanics.  It's tough to get that part down but once you figure it out it everything else is easy. 

I run about 2000 RPM w/a lucas Blade.  Its just a little too fast so I back off the RPM some.  If your considering going electric I would'nt run it that fast.  That is a important point that one should consider in the electric swinger debate....  A gas engine has a built in variable speed depending on what RPM you are running.  A electric motor is fixed so you must be exact on your pulley sizing to find the sweet spot (RPM) the blade likes to cut at.   Might consider it a pro: for gas engine although once you figured out the optimum RPM you could set up a electric motor to run at that speed loaded.
 

[tjhammer]

firebass I'm having all types of set backs,I bought a piece of 4140 stock 2'' for my arbor and with the 2'' I don't have enough stock for a lip to press on a hub so I decided to go to 1-  3/4'' so now I can't get bearings with the extended shaft to lock to the saw arbor, 1 1/2 to1 15/16 is all they show, I could turn my own locking collar, in a sealed bearing I would have to go with a 45 mm shaft size for them,found a curtis gear box 135 to 1 in dodge city, I have to locate some timming pulleys I know what I want if I could see them but don't know how to ask for them,sure would like to use this truck axle for a arbor but haven't found anything  that will cut it,will have most of my material together to mock me up a demo soon,Its been cold for this part of the country sure like backing up to my wood stove.
tjhammer

[tjhammer]

ready to start on my blade arbor,I looked at fire bass's post and can't make out the demensions,what matieral did you use for the hub,what do you think of stainless,did you key your hub or drill and tap the hub and arbor together,sorry for so many questions,just want to be safe,got my gear box and timing pulleys coming,I talked to a shop instructor at the local trade school he will help all he can,after I get my centers I can order the belt,is the balance hard to get on the swind,would it help to move the arbor further away from the gear box
tjhammer

[tjhammer]

firebass



got all my parts from mcguire bearing,I'm working on my arbor and I'm wondering did you machine your hub from a 5in peice of 4140,I looked at your post on the arbor could not make out any numbers at all,looks like you have two shoulders on the shaft,I though about turning a 4.5 in flange but not sure how thick to make it,do you think two shoulders would be better.

tjhammer

[Firebass]

I made a flange that the blade bolts to.  then I machined down the shaft leaving a shoulder to act as a stop so the flange could be heated up and slid down the length of shaft from the opposing end to the sholder.  This made it so it could not come off the shaft.  I then used a series of 3/8"' set screws drilled into the face of the flange between the two to insure the flange wouldn't come loose and work its way back up the shaft.  This is how I got away without welding the 4140 alloy shaft and screwing up the temper of the material.

I once did a bunch of work for a local saw mill where they would weld up large air cylinders to get by but they never lasted long once they were welded.  Once you've seen a broken 2" shaft it makes you think twice about welding on something that could cause death if it breaks.   Welding on high carbon steel can become so brittle that even a blow with a hammer can cause it to break.   

Firebass

[bandmiller2]

TJ,why not use the  rear axle out of a rear wheel drive auto, that gives you a forged one piece axle and flange,you trust it at 70 MPH in you car it  should hold saw blade.

[pitotshock]

For my dimensional sawmill build I am currently cutting a shaft / hub out of a rear drive axle from a 4x4 chevy as bandmiller2 is suggesting.

Mine is going to be a 1.250" diameter shaft and 4" diameter hub with 5 countersunk screws and a 1.000" pilot to hold the 18" blade in place (flush on outer face like a swing mill). All I have to say is the lathe work is demanding. This forged and hardened piece of steel requires C6 carbide tool to cut it (High Speed Steel need not apply!) and the depths of cut in each pass are very small. I don't think you could use the axles I have seen without modification.

When it is done, I think it will be the most robust design possible with no bolted joints or welds to fail.