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Author Topic: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"  (Read 1017 times)

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Offline scholar

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Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« on: March 20, 2014, 09:12:05 AM »
Good day to every one. so long and short I did a job for a women (wildlife removal) and she is having her property "logged" for some extra money out of the property before she sells.... she had a gentleman give her a price in Nov 2013 for doing this well he just came over last night and gave her the stand analysis and paper work for the permit to come in and cut... My questions are
her current Basal Area is 28 M2/HA and they want him to make it 19M2/HA we couldn't get a answer out of him for how many trees he will be taking and nor how many they want thinned out ... doe those numbers equal they want about half the trees taken out of her lot to help with growth?
 
That being said the "Stand Analysis" only shows a total of 156 trees to be removed now there is no way that all they want taken out when you include what they want taken out for growth (sorry i'm sure there is a term for that) aka that sheet only shows how many usable trees are to be taken?

The thing that gets me the most is she spoke to him about selling the home in Nov2013 and with that thaw we are having i cant see him being able to get into remove this timber with out leaving just a mess ( he has assured her he wil "fix" all ruts.............)  and he is being shady he filled out the paper work and she asked many times last night when will be starting he kept replying ohh really soon but when you rear the paper work that HE filled out it reads estimated start winter 2014 ......

Hope some one can please understand what im asking and I have provided something that will help with a answer

Thank you !
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Offline Brokermike

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2014, 09:27:09 AM »
Not sure how things work in the great frozen north but in my parts we do a forest inventory report, which helps with taxes, and from there it is pretty easy to figure how many sticks are coming out.

I might also point out, again at least in vermont, that land around here is more valuable if it Hasn't been recently cut. The new owners can then decide what their forest management objectives are. In addition the new owners generally have a higher cost basis in the tree inventory allowing them to recapture a portion of their purchase price without much tax consequence if they do decide to log.
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Offline chuckthompson

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2014, 09:33:28 AM »
huh, I call shenanagins on this one.....  If he can't explain it to your satisfaction, I'd find someone else that can.  Trees to be cut SHOULD have been marked, at least allowing the owner to view what's going to be happening with the cut.  And as far as the clean up goes, IMHO, there should be a cash incentive to get the property/ roads fixed up (penalty for no proper remediation).  Hopefully the landowner didn't sign anything.

Offline scholar

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2014, 09:53:41 AM »
huh, I call shenanagins on this one.....  If he can't explain it to your satisfaction, I'd find someone else that can.  Trees to be cut SHOULD have been marked, at least allowing the owner to view what's going to be happening with the cut.  And as far as the clean up goes, IMHO, there should be a cash incentive to get the property/ roads fixed up (penalty for no proper remediation).  Hopefully the landowner didn't sign anything.

Ya I know that's what i told her and I think this is how she feels. I feel bad for her because there are a couple other people in our area that could have done the work and now for time restraints she probably not be able to capitalize on making some extra coin off her property....

Does any one know what that means though going from 28m2 /ha to 19m2/ha i would think its representing how many trees they are taking out no? 
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Offline Woodboogah

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2014, 10:10:47 AM »
Doesn't sound right to me.  Sounds like the logger is in need of work.  If he cannot not give satisfactory answers to the landowners questions I would not sign a thing.  I believe that educating the landowner as much as possible is an important step for them to be at ease in a big decision.  I hope that this goes smoothly for the landowner. 


Is that like using a basal area measurement?
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Offline scholar

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2014, 11:11:49 AM »
Doesn't sound right to me.  Sounds like the logger is in need of work.  If he cannot not give satisfactory answers to the landowners questions I would not sign a thing.  I believe that educating the landowner as much as possible is an important step for them to be at ease in a big decision.  I hope that this goes smoothly for the landowner. 


Is that like using a basal area measurement?

Yes im pretty sure it is like a Basal Measurment so do they calculate a basal measurment?
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Offline clearcut

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2014, 01:27:33 PM »
Basal Area is an expression of stand density. It combines average diameter and number of trees per acre into a single number that can be used for many purposes. It represents the the area of a hectare that has tree trunks on it.

Basal area is reported in square meters per hectare. To visualize basal area, imagine that you cut off every tree on a hectare cleanly at 1.3 m above the ground breast height and measure the area at the top of the stump, and add that number up over the hectare, you would get the basal area in square meters per hectare.

Basal area is estimated in the field with one of several types of angle gauges. It can also be calculated from inventory data.

There is a very good local relationship between basal area and volume that is used for quick estimates. There are guides that set target basal areas for certain stand management options. Basal area is related to many wildlife habitat and aesthetic concerns, giving an objective measurement to guide management activities.

For the folks south:
   28 sq m / hc = 121 sq ft / ac
   19 sq m / hc =  83 sq ft / ac
   
Without additional information, the reduction in basal area seems reasonable. However it depends on the species composition, the diameter distribution, and a huge number of other factors that only a trained individual, on the ground could accurately assess.

The logger could reduce the basal area by harvesting a lot of little trees leaving widely spaced larger trees that would likely improve the aesthetic value of the stand. Or he could get the same reduction in basal area by taking fewer of the largest trees, leaving more smaller trees. In either case the quality of the operation can positively or negatively affect the aesthetic value.

From your description, the landowner has specific goals, make some money off of the wood, while keeping the stand in a condition suitable for a near term sale. The only way for her to achieve these goals is to hire a reputable forester to look after her interests.

It may turn out that the property would have more value if it sold unlogged, than what she could obtain for the logging.

Offline Glenn

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2014, 01:37:40 PM »
Scholar - where in Ontario is this?

Offline Holmes

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2014, 03:19:27 PM »
 This sounds like a question for the Foresters on the FF.   They should be able to make it understandable.
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Online SwampDonkey

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2014, 04:40:54 PM »
Looks like a third removal of basal area. In NB, I have always found 1/3 removal high in this part of the world because it tends to focus on large trees and we do not have the quality of woods they have in VA for instance. I always recommend no more than 20 % and not a "diameter limit cut" but based on existing diameter distribution. As clearcut mentioned, without knowing the diameter distribution of that basal area, there is no way to know how many trees are removed. 250 really big trees per ha can equal 800 small ones on a basal area basis. If it's mature timber around 75 feet tall 28 m2/ha can be 26-30 cords/acre of timber. What is the selection criteria of the harvested trees? Are trees marked to be cut? Why cut before selling? Why not just ask for the price you want? The tendency here in NB is to flatten the woods before selling. What that does here is drop the land value to about $50-200/acre. You gain nothing.
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Offline OntarioAl

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Re: Need some help reading some paper work .... "Stand Analysis"
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2014, 05:44:13 PM »
Scholar
What papers for a permit to cut??  In Ontario the timber rights can be severed and sold off separately from the land. It's a ploy used by shifty operators as they offer some money up front get the landowner to sign "the papers" and promptly register it against the deed. They usually put a period of several years allowing them unrestricted access to the timber and the agreement is binding on a future landowner if the land is  sold before the timber is cut. Needless to say it sure puts a crimp on the sale of the land and the value of same.
So what exactly did she sign at the kitchen table without the benefit of legal advise?
My  advise if she has not signed anything or accepted an advance payment is pardon the expression "put the bums rush " on this character and then get an appraisal of her property with the timber standing and without the timber.
Nuff said
Al

Al Raman


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