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Newb finishing a homebuilt bandmill - tracking question

Started by daltonhawk, September 08, 2014, 06:20:38 PM

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daltonhawk

This is my first post after lurking and digging through old posts for quite a while now.  I've been working on cobbling together a bandmill for a year or so and finally have it in the 'beta test' stage.  I've cut a few logs with mostly good results but I have a few questions on blade selection and tracking.

Here are some details on the construction – most of the frame is welded from 2.5" ¼" wall square tube.  The 28" bandwheels are from an old Cantek resaw.   Power comes from a 137HP 1000CC engine from a Kawasaki Ninja with a 6-speed transmission using an RC-car servo and an Arduino for a governor.  The power feed uses #40 chain and an electric wheelchair motor.    Maximum cut is 49" wide by 16' long.  I've mostly tried Cooks Magnum (0.055" x 1.5") blade which they recommended when I told them that I want to cut hardwood upto 49" wide.

This issue I've had is that when I've had the wheels set so the band tracks where I want it (teeth hanging off the front edge of the wheel) the tracking seems to be consistent but then the band suddenly pops off the front of the wheel.  I think I've corrected this by tracking the band just a little further back but I might still be flirting with disaster.  What I'm wondering is if I should be using a wider blade since my wheels are 2"+ wide?  With a 1.5" band and the teeth hanging about ¼" off the front of the wheel, the blade is mostly just on the front half of the wheel.  Should I move up to a 2" or wider band?  I'm also considering adding a little more crown to the rubber tires but I'm not sure if that would compound the issue with the band mostly on the front half of the wheel.  Any input would be appreciated.


 

thecfarm

daltonhawk,welcome to the forum. Not much help. I brought mine mill. But on mine I just turn the wheels by hand and I can tell if it is running off. Once I get it true,I turn the wheels by hand a few moe times times and start it up and run it slow. Than I know I am all set. Works for me.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Magicman

First, Welcome to the Forestry Forum, daltonhawk. 

Am I (not) seeing any roller blade guides?  I can not really tell from the picture.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

kelLOGg

I think you have hit upon the problem: "With a 1.5" band and the teeth hanging about ¼" off the front of the wheel, the blade is mostly just on the front half of the wheel." I think the band should ride on the center of the crown otherwise I think it will come off. Check it out with Cook. They know a lot about tracking and crowned steel wheels.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

daltonhawk

Quote from: Magicman on September 08, 2014, 07:53:35 PM
First, Welcome to the Forestry Forum, daltonhawk. 

Am I (not) seeing any roller blade guides?  I can not really tell from the picture.

Thanks!  It does have guides - simple ball bearings for thrust and angle.  I'll post a better picture.

Quote from: kelLOGg on September 08, 2014, 07:57:55 PM
I think you have hit upon the problem: "With a 1.5" band and the teeth hanging about ¼" off the front of the wheel, the blade is mostly just on the front half of the wheel." I think the band should ride on the center of the crown otherwise I think it will come off. Check it out with Cook. They know a lot about tracking and crowned steel wheels.
Bob

I ran the first band on the center of the wheel and it tracked fine but lost the set after cutting one little log and started diving.  That's why I'm thinking about a wider band - so it can be more centered on the wheel while having the teeth hang off.  I'm planing to call Cooks tomorrow but I thought I'd try to get some more info first.

Ga Mtn Man

As an alternative to having to run the wider more costly bands, could you have the rim of the wheels turned thinner and re-crowned?
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

BCsaw

You definitely need the crown. How much toe are you running on the wheels?

I set mine up so it will track perfectly on the wheels without the help of the guide wheels. The guide wheels provide the support when cutting.

Sound like you need a change with wheel thickness or band width. My wheels are probably only 3/4" wide with a belt providing the crown for an 1 1/4" blade.

My 2 cents.
Inspiration is the ability to "feel" what thousands of others can't!
Homebuilt Band Sawmill, Kioti 2510 Loader Backhoe

MartyParsons

Hello,
I do not think that a wider band will solve a tracking issue. You will need to have the band wheels running in the proper phase or angle. You will also need to have crown in the steel wheel. Some manufactured band saws with steel wheels have little use for saw guides, and no or little blade deflection to help guide the band. You need to guide the band when it gets less sharp or you find a defect in the log or wood.
Something you may want to try ( with caution) turn the wheel the other direction than it was designed. Does the tracking stay the same? If it does the wheels are aligned if not they are not alighned properly. ( this should be done with out the guides in place)  Some manufactures have adjustments for forward/back tilt of the band wheel at the top and bottom and right to left adjustment for tracking the band. 
Hope this helps.
Marty
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

daltonhawk

The thing that was surprising me more than anything about the tracking is that the band will track consistently (without contact with the guides) for several minutes and then pop-off instantly.  I haven't measured the toe since adjusting the tracking but I can easily adjust each wheel to get the band where I want it, first turning it by hand while adjusting, and then verifying the tracking at idle speed.

Besides the extra cost could it be worth it to run 2" wide bands?  I know a guy who built a huge band slabber (72" cut) and he uses 2.5" bands for a flatter cut in wide logs

The wheels have a rubber tire with a small crown, maybe 1/16" - I'm thinking of putting on a little more - any recommendations for crown height on a 2" wide wheel?

Here are some pictures of how I have the band positioned at the moment - so far so good at this setting but it popped off when I had it forward just a bit more.



  


  


 

barbender

I see two problems- first, the body of the band needs to be centered on the crown of the wheel. If it is knocking the set out of the teeth, you will have to increase the crown or go to a wider blade. Second, it looks like your blade guide is set too far forward, deflecting the blade. Blade guides should be set 1/8" behind the blade.
Too many irons in the fire

daltonhawk

Quote from: barbender on September 09, 2014, 12:33:12 AM
I see two problems- first, the body of the band needs to be centered on the crown of the wheel. If it is knocking the set out of the teeth, you will have to increase the crown or go to a wider blade. Second, it looks like your blade guide is set too far forward, deflecting the blade. Blade guides should be set 1/8" behind the blade.

OK, that's what I'm thinking, wider band more crown.  I'd have the guide back further but I don't want the band to get pushed back to were it might loose set, and I'd have the band forward more but then it might come off the front. 

Do you think 2" would be a good width?  How much crown do you think I should have?

daltonhawk

Here's the setup I used to crown the tires on my Yates American Y-30 with a die grinder a few years ago.  Maybe I'll use the same setup on the mill.



 


 

york

OK,when your Band wheels were in the Cantek resaw,what width bands did it run?????Think about this....
Albert

bandmiller2

York brings up a good point try the same bands that ran on the wheels when they were a resaw. If you are going to regrind the crown move it forward to center on the band when the teeth are located properly. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Magicman

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

daltonhawk

Quote from: bandmiller2 on September 09, 2014, 07:34:07 AM
York brings up a good point try the same bands that ran on the wheels when they were a resaw. If you are going to regrind the crown move it forward to center on the band when the teeth are located properly. Frank C.

I bought the Cantek for the wheels so I never had a blade with it but I can probably ask the old owner.

I called Cooks this morning and said the same thing - they recommended putting on a 0.040" crown moved forward so that it's centered where I want the band to track.  I was ready to buy some 2" wide bands but they recommended changing the crown first.

Hilltop366

Creative ideas on your mill, I'm sure I will enjoy the video of it running once you get it all sorted out. Hint hint ;D

kelLOGg

Quote from: daltonhawk on September 09, 2014, 11:44:52 AM
Quote from: bandmiller2 on September 09, 2014, 07:34:07 AM
York brings up a good point try the same bands that ran on the wheels when they were a resaw. If you are going to regrind the crown move it forward to center on the band when the teeth are located properly. Frank C.

I bought the Cantek for the wheels so I never had a blade with it but I can probably ask the old owner.

I called Cooks this morning and said the same thing - they recommended putting on a 0.040" crown moved forward so that it's centered where I want the band to track.  I was ready to buy some 2" wide bands but they recommended changing the crown first.

Good call, BM.
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

fishpharmer

daltonhawk, welcome to FF!  Nice mill!  With all the horsepower you have and the wide throat, I would be inclined to try a wider and thicker band before making changes to the crown on the band wheels.  A quick search found a Cantek website, maybe contact them about original band specs. 

My $00.02
Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

york

Hey James,your two cents is very good,he has a pair of good Band wheels,to cut them down,would be stupid,to change the crown maybe ok,but i would run with the"BAND" that these fine Band wheels were designed for,ha has a good start on a home built mill....
Albert

backwoods sawyer

The chalenge may well be finding a machine shop that can spin a wheel and turn them down, or move the crown forward. I ran into this when having 24" wheels recrowed.
The cost of wider saws could be the deciding factor as that will be an on going exspense ;)
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

slider

 I was thinking like James on the wider bands.With that large throat a 2 in band might pay off.I think I would try one before I cut those wheels down.Al
al glenn

backwoods sawyer

The wheels on the Cooks mill run 2" saws but are not 2" wide. Even running a 2" band the crown may need to be moved forward.
May well be looking at a 2 1/2"-3" band for that wide of a wheel.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

36 coupe

The guide wheels are too close to the band wheels.My mill has an adjustable guide on one side.The fixed guide is not close to the band wheel.Saw a dual axle trailer fender at TSC that would make a good blade guard.Most home built mills have skimpy or no guards.

york

Albert

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