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Battle with the County and my Circle Mill

Started by 03westernstar, September 26, 2014, 12:22:00 AM

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03westernstar


redprospector

I sympathize with you. I'm going through some similar things right now.
For a "Free Country" that's supposed to cherish our "Liberties", we sure seem to have a lot of local and county ordinances, and state and federal laws that restrict our "Freedom, and Liberty".  :o :( >:(
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

kderby

Of all the problem neighbors in the world you had to have a hobby sawmill? ;D ;D ;D  I can think of worse! ::)

Keep your chin up and see your way past this.  Sounds like the inspector is afraid of the complainer.  He thinks he has to put his foot down.

What kind of county, in the land of the free and the home of the brave, does not allow sawmills?

He can get a warrant to be on your property after a complaint?  Does he serve the public or do the people have to serve him?

Are there variance or acceptable conditions that you could arrive at?

Sorry for your troubles.  Play the game, to a point, but get back to making sawdust.  Sawdust is good nutrition!

Kderby

thecfarm

At least you can have one. I had a guy come here from Kittery,ME,if I remember right, and he can not have one at all. The town banned all sawmills years ago. He said there was a guy that had a business with a circular mill. Slabs and lumber everywhere. Town did not like the way that looked. When he died,the town said no saw mills.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

AnthonyW

The zoning ordinances of my town include a list of permitted uses for each zone. The zone I am in does not permit the establishment to operate a sawmill. After review by a lawyer establishment = business. Me <> (not equal) business, therefore as long as I am not operating the sawmill as a business I can own and use a sawmill on my property. It does not specify portable or permanent, just sawmill.

You could always apply for a variance.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Ron Wenrich

Sawmilling is looked upon as an extension of an agricultural business in PA.  Its also looked upon as being a primary producer, and you can get an exemption from sales tax.  PA is a right to farm state, so that makes a lot of those local ordinances obsolete.  That also means that they can't prevent you from logging. 

Here's a sawmill on wheels:


 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

FarmingSawyer

Quote from: thecfarm on September 26, 2014, 05:09:21 AM
At least you can have one. I had a guy come here from Kittery,ME,if I remember right, and he can not have one at all. The town banned all sawmills years ago. He said there was a guy that had a business with a circular mill. Slabs and lumber everywhere. Town did not like the way that looked. When he died,the town said no saw mills.

I started reading this thread thinking, "Thank God we live in Maine....." But I see idiocy creeps in everywhere......I sometimes get irrigated at the gravel pit behind where I'm living....it's a mile away and I can here it into the night sometimes.....but then I remember I hate Nimbys....... I spent 20 years in the San Juan Islands of Washington State..... You could hear the sawmill I worked at across the water for miles....There was beginning to be talk of limiting/banning them. Then the sawmill sold--I couldn't afford to buy it, nor could I afford the land to put it on..... I am glad I moved from there...... I was a little amazed that where I was working in Poland (don't make the mistake the local lawyer did when trying to sue me for not completing a job the landowner blocked me from returning too.....because I had traveled to Poland and was "gone"...... :D Don't know what Maine boy doesn't know of Poland MAINE!!) for a few weeks that my 7am start didn't have the neighbors flooding out of their McMansions like bees to shut me down......that or the blue air every time I hit hardware......
Thomas 8020, Stihl 039, Stihl 036, Homelite Super EZ, Case 385, Team of Drafts

clww

It saddens me that so many counties of our Commonwealth are getting so stupid with self-serving ordinances and foolish laws.
You can park it on our property in Highland County any time.
Many Stihl Saws-16"-60"
"Go Ask The Other Master Chief"
18-Wheeler Driver

ddcuning

And they can't understand why there are lots of us so sick of government!

In Chatham County NC, you can have a sawmill with no restrictions as long as it isn't a business. If it is a business, it has to be on a specific size lot (20acres I think), zoned commercial/industrial and you have to get it permitted. Otherwise, you just have to meet the noise ordinances which is 65dBa at the property line during certain hours. My mill is only 50ft from the property line. I had the sheriff look mine over and basically he said "if you have a muffler, you meet the noise ordinances". The very liberal neighbor behind me was trying to sue me to stop me running the mill. Luckily in my case, the sheriff took my side and told the neighbor to let it go.

Dave C
We're debt free!!! - Dave C, Nov 2015

ely

the deputy "said" he had a warrant to search the property... if it were me I would told him to produce said warrant... because without the warrant he would be in violation of your rights... until you invited him onto your land.
I could not imagine living in a county like you describe.
if your neighbors don't like your sawmill I bet they would crap their collective pants when I fired up my airboat.

I would bet a dollar to a donut that the offended neighbor that is complaining is a busy body that is kin to some higher up in the county.

blade69001

 This makes me feel blessed, I ran my gas powered resaw in my garage in my neighborhood for about six months. Not once did I get a complaint.
Sean P
Just being me, But it is ok you do not have to like me.

BBK

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on September 26, 2014, 06:06:08 AM
Sawmilling is looked upon as an extension of an agricultural business in PA.  Its also looked upon as being a primary producer, and you can get an exemption from sales tax.  PA is a right to farm state, so that makes a lot of those local ordinances obsolete.  That also means that they can't prevent you from logging. 

Here's a sawmill on wheels:


 

Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia have "Right to Farm Acts". Virginia recently modified theirs. You may want to check into the zoning for your area. If it has any provisions for agriculture use you may be exempt from local ordinances.

Good luck.
I love Farming, Logging, Sawmilling, Fishing, and Hunting.

Dave Shepard

My town allows a mill as an ancillary activity on a farm. I wouldn't want to try and got too big, however.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

hunz

If all else fails I would get part of your land rezoned commercial. I recently had to do that for an event facility business my wife and I run, now we have no more griping from code enforcement. Its kind of a sucky process with having to meet in front of a formal zoning board, giving reasons why you want to change it, why it is good for the local economy etc.....

  I would have asked for a warrant myself. I have never heard of a code enforcement officer having the same rights as a law man..just doesn't seem right to me.

A funny story that happened recently:

A close friend of my wife's(woman) was home alone during the day when the county tax assessors showed up at her place after their new home was built. Apparently they were making rounds on new residences to check on bed/bth and sq/ft #'s to assess the value. They first asked to come in until they saw her gun. She met them at the door with a .357 magnum.....she made sure to let them know she had it. They didn't stay long! Myself, I don't care who you are, if you come unannounced on my farm, who will most likely see me openly displaying my gun until you show me valid I'd/ warrant.

A big problem I see today, is Americans are unaware of their "own" rights. These county officials are your servants, not the other way around. You are doing a good job so far, keep it up, and I'm sure you will prevail. I would recommend a "Posted" sign at any entrance to your property, a gate would also help. Only way in for them is to B&E without a warrant. You'd find out if they had one then.


Molon Labe
Dream as if you'll saw forever; saw as if you'll die today.



2006 Woodmizer LT40D51RA, Husqvarna 372xp, Takeuchi TL140

Leigh Family Farm

Such a shame to go through this...

1) Did you get a copy of the warrant?
2) Does the sawmill have to be on wheels to be considered portable? Farmers will put chicken coops, hoop houses, and small sheds on skids so they are not permanent structures, thus not taxable. Could you put your sawmill on skids and show that you can move it?
3) Do the wheels have to be useable? Meaning, the wheels you put on the sawmill actually have to allow for the sawmill to be moved.
There are no problems; only solutions we haven't found yet.

JJ

About 25 years ago, I had waterfront owner near me build few weekly rental cottages too close to water line.
When he was told to remove the permanent structures he lag bolted rims with tires to each one.  ::)

It didn't fly, so now there is permanent trailer park of travel trailers there.  Several are quite old.

I look up images of portable Frick sawmills, and some have wheels, but others don't look like they will move easily.
Good luck with your local goverment.

        JJ

Joe Hillmann

Do any of the ordinances define what portable is?

To the US Army and the Forest Service a full size production circular mill is considered portable because once they are done in an area they can take it apart and move it.

I would think if you can prove that you can move it; on wheels, skids, lift it on to a trailer with a crane, ect.  it would/could be called portable.


Ianab

I think you have the out you need as the regs say portable IS allowed. Does it specify wheels, or just say portable? I mean my mill is super portable, but has no wheels. You pick up the individual parts and load them on a pickup.

But it it does specify "wheels" then you just bolt an old truck axle under one end and a drawer bar on the other. Doesn't have to be roadworthy or anything, just something you can drag around behind a tractor if you want it moved.  It will look something like Ron's pic, and that looks "portable" to me.

This will be a lot less grief than fighting over it. If you start pulling the "you need a warrant" stuff, you will be picking a fight. They will just come back with a warrant and police backup, and make a Mt out of a molehill. Easier to make it obviously portable, show the guy the copy of the regs, show him that the mill is obviously "portable", and wish him a nice day. He can go back to the office, close the complaint off as "Investigated, machinery complies with regulations, no further action needed."

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Buddyw

Slip a set of wheels under it like mine.
I have a Frick 01 (portable) mill.
This picture was taken just after I set the husk frame/carriage assembly on its foundation.
The tires are still on it but, they are not touching the ground.

 

Don_Papenburg

You are young yet ,  Run for a seat on the county board , 
try to replace the stupid laws /regs  with common sense suggestions.

Aaron Schock started at 17 running for Peoria county school board and has not lost a race yet .  He is now in the state legislature.  It all started because of stupid rules placed on students by the board of ed and admins.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

redprospector

You have to have a certain temperament to sit in a political office.
You have to have an altogether different mind set, and temperament if you intend to change anything while sitting in that political office.
I sit on our town council and feel like I'm beating my head against the wall most of the time. It truly is amazing the stupidity that can exist in the people who are supposed to be our leadership.
We have ordinances that I'm trying to change that do an "end around" property rights that are listed in the Bill of Rights of our great country. I get told that since we live in a municipality that we should expect to give up certain rights.  :D I asked them "then what?". They didn't understand, so I said if we leave our rights at the city limits, then the county will say "we have to have some control over these people". Now we have to leave our rights at the county line. Then what? The state wants control over us, and on and on until we have to leave our rights at the Atlantic, the Pacific, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Canadian border.
Stand up folks! Once your rights are gone, you won't get them back...ever.
Too many men, women, and children have given their lives to afford you your rights, don't let some bunch of uppity yuppies take them from you without a fight!
Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

hunz

Quote from: redprospector on September 26, 2014, 11:41:35 PM
You have to have a certain temperament to sit in a political office.
You have to have an altogether different mind set, and temperament if you intend to change anything while sitting in that political office.
I sit on our town council and feel like I'm beating my head against the wall most of the time. It truly is amazing the stupidity that can exist in the people who are supposed to be our leadership.
We have ordinances that I'm trying to change that do an "end around" property rights that are listed in the Bill of Rights of our great country. I get told that since we live in a municipality that we should expect to give up certain rights.  :D I asked them "then what?". They didn't understand, so I said if we leave our rights at the city limits, then the county will say "we have to have some control over these people". Now we have to leave our rights at the county line. Then what? The state wants control over us, and on and on until we have to leave our rights at the Atlantic, the Pacific, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Canadian border.
Stand up folks! Once your rights are gone, you won't get them back...ever.
Too many men, women, and children have given their lives to afford you your rights, don't let some bunch of uppity yuppies take them from you without a fight!
Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.

I don't think you're on a soap box at all. The plain simple fact is that most people these days would rather "comply" than fight for injustice. I know this topic may be getting slightly off topic here, (especially with my comments) but something MUST be said. "Once your rights are gone....they're gone".......its true. Americans have lost their fight for basic tyranny, and quite frankly the USA isn't what it is today because we just complied with Britain.

If you post your property and install a gate, what can the county do? Is the mill in plain view from the road? If not you could just say it has been made portable. You have no legal responsibility to show a code enforcement officer a private mill operation on private land period, and they know that! They are just hoping you will cooperate. Surrender your constitutional rights voluntarily. They have no push, nor is the county going to get the sheriff's dept involved over a sawmill ordinance.....trust me. The whole thing about not asking for a warrant because it will cause more problems comes straight from the mouth of someone who sure isn't going to be in my foxhole if things ever go south, that's for sure. Like I said, Americans have lost their spirit to fight for what is right. Now I'll get off my soapbox!

Dream as if you'll saw forever; saw as if you'll die today.



2006 Woodmizer LT40D51RA, Husqvarna 372xp, Takeuchi TL140

Southside

By law the deputy would have had to leave you with a copy of the search warrant and an "inventory" of any items seized.  Even if there were none taken. If he was BS ing you about having a warrant then anything he and the code enforcement guy saw are "fruit of the poisonous tree" and can not be used against you as consent must be "voluntary and free of coeersion", in this case clearly he coersed you into showing him your property. If it were me I would go after the Sheriff office and the county so hard they would be afraid to look at me again. I spent a long time as a full time law enforcement officer and I detest cops who think it is OK to dance on the Constitution because they are on a power trip, and know that most folks will avoid any disagreement with them.  Examples like this need to stop and people need to be held accountable.
If he comes back politely ask for a copy of the warrant, if he does not have one I would clearly tell him he does not have consent to enter onto your land, especially what is called the curtilidige. Don't physically try to stop them, but if they proceed at that point doccument it all and get it to an attorney.  You will prevail.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
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White Oak Meadows

03westernstar

Thank y'all for all of the suggestions and questions and comments,I Would answer each question with a quote but i would be quoting way to much so i am going to answer to the best of my ability. BBK,hunz,kilgrosh,Joe Hillmann,Ianab, Southside Logger, and im Sorry if i missed someone,its been a long day driving.

Im going to try and work with the county because i think im the only one around with a mill and i do not want them to ban mills altogether(no commercial mills around either)

He did have a warrant and I do have a copy.

The right to farm act doesn't cover agricultural/residential zoned land it only covers JUST agricultural zoned land. as far as i know

I have posted signs,and a gate but if im home i do not shut it because ive never had trouble with random County inspectors showing up.

The ordinance defines portable as being on wheels or TRACKS? :-\ But a building/shed can be on skids or the like. ::)

So i called the second county official and he said that as long as the mill is on wheels or tracks and can be moved with minimal effort?  ??? I don't know what effort has to do with it, i could care less if my JD lawnmower or the 1370 Case tractor can move it, but he meant without a months worth of work, it is alright to operate as a hobby mill :-\

But if all i have to do is add wheels and then i can put my mill beside my shop and not aggravate anyone then everything will be alright, and it will shut them up,sounds easy right?

and if i wanted to i could take it to the County AG Fair as an antique sawmill demonstration (the only upside i can think to adding wheels)

Anything ive missed?

Ianab

QuoteBut if all i have to do is add wheels and then i can put my mill beside my shop and not aggravate anyone then everything will be alright, and it will shut them up,sounds easy right?

That would seem the easiest option.

You might not agree with the law, and even lobby to change it, but right now the law is on their side.

Bolt on an axle, hook it to your tractor and drag it down to your shop. Phone the inspector and tell him your mill is compliant, and he can come and inspect it any time cos it's now in a more convenient location. Which also proves it's portable.

You can make your life a LOT more difficult by protesting your "Rights"

Locking the gate is pretty pointless as anyone can see the mill on Google Earth, which gives probable cause for a search warrant etc. You can go down fighting, or spend $100 and just keep sawing....

Pick your battles....
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

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