Red oak seedlings

[47sawdust]

We are having a clear cut done on a Red pine plantation in Central Vermont.
Our county forester suggested planting red oak or burr oak.
He mentioned 3 nurseries in the Midwest as a source-
Alpha Nurseries in Michigan
Chief River Nurseries in Wisconsin
Itasca Green House in Minnesota
Has anyone had personal experience with any of these greenhouses?
Thanks

[beenthere]

No experience with those nurseries that I know of, as the red oak I planted  were from, or through, the Wisconsin DNR.

How many acres to plant? And just a single species? And did the forester have experience under his/her belt for this recommendation or some guidelines that are being followed? Any link to the guidelines?

I planted 5 acres of red oak mixed with Norway spruce and white pine in '98. The spruce outgrew the red oak and turned out to be a problem, although in first 10 years did what I wanted them to do, and that was crowd the red oak to put height growth on with limited side limbs.
Got smart too late and should have removed the spruce while they were smaller.

[chep]

Are there oak trees nearby? For seed? 
In my experiences,  planting hardwood in vt is a waste of time. In a nice clear-cut there will be an amazingly diverse seed bed already there. 
Your plantings will be overcome by natural regen really fast. Save your money and effort and spend it on tsi in 10 years. Where you can thin for red oak and other valuable native hardwood. Or maybe white pine will seed in. Hard to say. But it is very difficult to out compete what nature will do for free. 

Your forester is giving you bad advise in my opinion. Maybe they want to plant for you and make more money? My experience is that planted stock will never have good timber form. Timber form comes from competition, and in a clear-cut the competition will be fierce. My 2 cents

[rusticretreater]

Vermont is the northern edge of the range for Red Oak.  If you believe the climate change scenarios, red oak will get more predominant in Vermont in the future.  If you don't believe in the scenarios, maybe red oak is not right for you.  Maple, Cherry, Beech are more prevalent in the area.

https://www.uvm.edu/news/rsenr/will-red-oak-dominate-vermont-forests-warmer-future#:~:text=Oak%2Dhickory%20forests%2C%20possibly%20the,minor%20components%20of%20the%20forest.

Your use of the word plantation indicates that you are going for density and future harvesting.  Natural regen will not provide the density, or purity of the trees you desire.  Maybe you can view some of the sites of the red oak used to gather data for the above article to see how the trees look, their form and size.

[chep]

@rusticretreater
Our forests here in Vermont  already do include red oak. In some areas prolific amounts. The tree range maps don't show the extent of it in my opinion.  And people who wrote that article aren't spending enough time I'm the woods.
In 2013 I did patch cuts in my white pine forest (old pasture). Reducing volume by 65%. In those gaps came a massive amount of regen. Paper birch, red maple, sugar maple, red oak and black cherry, popel etc. Prob close to 10% red oak.
Anywhere that I see logging gaps of over 1/4 acre in eastern Vermont there is red oak. Almost every wood lot I have worked in from Bennington to newbury vt has a red oak component. And west to Barre. Excluding high elevation. 
I can't speak for every woodlot in the state. But unless there is a major invasive, buckthorn etc then natural regen is impressive and will outgrow your plantings every time

[Ron Scott]

As stated by others, you might want to consider waiting 1-5 years to see what natural regeneration brings. If natural regeneration fails and stocking is low, then consider planting.

Check out your Soil Survey information to determine the preferred species for your soil types and ecosystem compatibility. You might want to go with red pine if you have a large enough acreage for commercial purposes.

I've had some minimal experience with the Alpha and Itasca Nurseries here in the Lake States and both provided suitable stock and service. You just need to be sure that you are planting during a suitable period of moisture in the spring or fall. Hardwood plantings may require protective shelters or screens against deer and rabbit damage.

Also check with your local County Conservation District or DNR as a source of planting stock. They are usually less costly for the forest landowner than the commercial nurseries.

[47sawdust]

Thanks everyone.
I think I will let it regenerate on its own.The plantation is 63 years old.The under story is a pretty robust mix of hardwood.At 77 I have other things to do besides planting trees.

[Treeflea24]

Has anyone had personal experience with any of these greenhouses?

I ordered from Alpha in MI last season (350 trees, 8 different species). They were easy to work with.
The one thing worth mentioning in my experience was that I got 100% mortality on one line item - pin oak.
Some of the others had low survival rates, but not 0%, and could have been impacted by other factors. I think the pin oak was bad stock.
I wrote this up in a post on FF here: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=122567.0
I contacted them just to let them know, and they said they were looking into it. I'd forgotten to follow up and havent heard anything since, thanks for the reminder.

[SwampDonkey]

I would gather a sack of oak acorns in the fall and sink a few around in the cut in patches that look less competitive. My problem up here with oak is hares chew them up and when they get to nut baring age the black bears will destroy them.  I had no trouble at all with the acorns germinating, but the wildlife are their demise. :D They grow around the yard here, but no bears and hares in the back yard. :D

[Texas Ranger]

Years ago we planted a large track to pine and a combination of deer, rabbits and hogs managed to eat enough of the seedlings in the first year to require replanting.

[Magicman]

When I did my hand planted (Hodads) Oak plantation the mice took their toll on the newly planted seedlings.  Most of the stems were still standing up, but the roots were gone.

[mudfarmer]

47 if you want to take a road trip I will show you a former red pine plantation that is a beautiful mixed hardwood forest (heavy to sugar maple) now, no planting. About 3.5hr ride, actually a smidge north of you by the looks but a little less elevation

[Ron Scott]

Red pine plantations will often naturally convert to northern hardwoods after their 1st and 2nd thinning's if they were originally planted on soil types more favorable to a hardwood ecosystem. Many red pine plantations that were originally planted on abandoned farmlands on loamy soils are more favorable to hardwoods and will naturally convert to hardwoods over time.

The sandy dryer soil types will stay more favorable to pine.

[SwampDonkey]

Up this way wild red pine are on red clay with lots of course material mixed in and sand. Also a lot in the shaley bluffs of the end of the Tobique river before it meets the Saint John. Mostly on reservation land. You'd have to do some rope climbing to get near those pines. White pine mixed in. Eagles like it up there overlooking the river. 

[John Mc]

Your forester is giving you bad advise in my opinion. Maybe they want to plant for you and make more money? My experience is that planted stock will never have good timber form. Timber form comes from competition, and in a clear-cut the competition will be fierce. My 2 cents

He mentioned that it was the county forester. Their services are free (paid for by our taxes, no additional charge tot he landowner for their services). With nothing to gain by recommending that, I'm betting the County Forester had a good reason for his suggestion. I get good oak regen on my own property, but then I've got a bunch of oaks here already as seed sources.

I don't know Robert Nelson (Vermont's Washington County Forester) myself, but all of the VT County Foresters I have met are very knowledgeable people. Before writing off his suggestion, I'd suggest chatting more with him to see why he recommended planting rather than just waiting for natural regeneration.