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Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing

Started by YellowHammer, December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM

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YellowHammer

You only would need one clamp, positioned in the middle.  Years ago I build a cheap winch powered shuttle clamp for my LT15 that work very well.  A small winch 1500 lb HF acted as a windlass and slid a clamp shuttle backward and forward on a bar.  Later I added a mechanism to raise and lower the clamp.  If you build this, you will never have to use manual clamps again.   

http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,53476.0.html

There are other pics and descriptions in the thread of how I turned my manaul into a near hydraulic. 


YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

SawyerTed

Quote from: kelLOGg on January 29, 2018, 10:45:25 PM
Sawyer Ted,
You are about 2 hours from me. When I have another oak to QS you can come observe if you like.
Bob

Bob, I'd like to do this.

Ted
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

tburch

Like Bob, I too have a Cooks, but his is manual and mine is hydraulic.   And even then, my backstops are on the opposite side of his!  Totally wonkers. 

The Woodmizer has a definite advantage using this log rolling method.   The backstops have roller bearings on top and they travel vertically.  So, not only will the log have less friction when rolling it, with their vertical-only travel, the log is unlikely to shift end-to-end when they are moved. 

The Cooks (manual and hydraulic) have backstops that are square tubes, with angled tops, and they move in a radial fashion against the side of the log (envision a windshield wiper). If the log is touching the backstops when the backstops are raised or lowered, the log WILL shift.  Therefore, there's not that wide a gap between the log handling required between a manual Cooks and hydraulic Cooks when rolling a log to execute this technique.  Lots of manual handling still needed (at least for me).  BUT, still worth it to get max figure.   

Bob, I will borrow your ideas for your aids!   
Peterson 10" WPF with slabber. Cooks AC36 Diesel.
'94 Ford 4830 Diesel 2WD & FEL.  Norse 450 skid winch.  Logrite fetching arch.  Fransgard Forestry Grapple.

Brad_bb

Yellowhammer, I see in that link that you have the winch/cable actuating your claw turner.  Only at the end of the post do I see your "shuttle clamps" on a pallet with a sketch showing an idea, but I don't see a pic of the actual execution?  Do you have a pic of that?  The way you have it sketched, It' s the Winch Drum I have a hard time imagining.  Is there a cable that turns the winch drum that runs back to the operator position?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Brad_bb

On another note... On my LT15 as most of you know, the throat opening is 24"-24.5".  I've got nice straight white oak logs that are 30" on the small end.  Gun barreling will take them down some, but the question is how to get those 4 center boards out and get my two almost half logs?  I mean, I guess I'll just have to gun barrel them and see if I can get the first log half off.  If so, then I can get that off the mill, flip what's left and take the other almost log half, then split the remaining thick flitch in half down the pith.  Then mill the remaining pith off each, then I'll have two thick boards to resaw that should be me two sets of book match quarter sawn.

The problem comes in if the log is still too wide to get the first almost log half cut off.  Then maybe I'd have to make my gun barrel smaller, thus losing good wood/board width?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

WDH

You would just have to take more flatsawn boards off the outside faces while gun-barrelling to get the cant to the size that will fit through the blade guides. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

YellowHammer

Yes, you have to start playing games with it.  If you take equal amounts of flatsawn boards off each side of a centered pith, then you will have narrowed the QS boards on each side. 

However, since pith is rarely centered, and there is usually one face worse than the other, I like to intentionally "off center" saw the pith, where the lower value side gets turned into flatsawn wood, and the high value side remains untouched so it will still make wide QS boards.  This is possible to execute because the pith doesn't have to be centered, it only has to be aligned so you are sawing aligned with its axis.  Once you've taken off enough low value wood for the cant to fit through the guides, split it and sawn as normal.

This is the same technique used when QSing an off center pith log, which is a gift when quarter sawing.

I have also sawn very large logs into thirds, and QS each third, instead of halves.  Sometimes it easy to get lost doing that. 

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Yellowhammers are fastidious.  ;D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

YellowHammer

Quote from: Brad_bb on January 30, 2018, 08:58:39 PM
Yellowhammer, I see in that link that you have the winch/cable actuating your claw turner.  Only at the end of the post do I see your "shuttle clamps" on a pallet with a sketch showing an idea, but I don't see a pic of the actual execution?  Do you have a pic of that?  The way you have it sketched, It' s the Winch Drum I have a hard time imagining.  Is there a cable that turns the winch drum that runs back to the operator position?

I have some pics in my gallery.  Here is a better picture.



The whole device consists of a square crossbar member with two steel end plates welded so that it will fit and bolt to the inside rails of the mill.  Completely self contained.  On one endplate, under the crossbar, a pulley is welded (left bottom side of crossbar in picture).  On the other endplate, under the crossbar, a small winch is attached (right underside of crossbar in picture and the empty winch drum is barely visible).  The winch cable is removed from the winch, shortened, and threaded through the winch drum by drilling a hole in the arbor.  Then one end of the cable goes from the winch around the pulley and attaches to one side of the shuttle.  The other end of the cable from the winch arbor attaches to the other side of the shuttle and the loop of cable is tensioned.  Since the cable passes through the winch drum, when the winch is operated in one direction it will pull the shuttle one direction.  When the winch is reversed it will pull the shuttle in the other direction.  Everything is mounted to the one crossbar so it can be easily removed with some bolts that attaches the endplates to the mill frame. 
I got the idea for this by watching the shuttle on a chain drive garage door opener.  Motor turns one way, shuttle moves that way, motor turns the other, shuttle reverses.  As a matter of fact, instead of using a cable I wanted to use garage door opener chain, with a split gear welded on the winch drum, I just never got around to it because the cable worlked just fine. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

YellowHammer

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on January 30, 2018, 11:13:50 PM
Yellowhammers are fastidious.  ;D
DanG right.  I guess we are two peas in a pod.   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

I didn't think that Yellowhammers and Goats were compatible.  Another thing, Goats ain't fastidious.  (Note to Self:  Fastidious is a pretty big word for a goat to be using on his own.  Maybe he is a Coached Goat). 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

customsawyer

You do know that there is this thing called Google now right?
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Darrel

1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

YellowHammer

I looked it up.
GOAT is short for "Greatest Of All Time".  It must be true, I saw it on the Internet.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: YellowHammer on January 31, 2018, 08:52:00 PM
I looked it up.
GOAT is short for "Greatest Of All Time".  It must be true, I saw it on the Internet.

You are now on my Christmas list.  ;D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

kelLOGg

YH,
Thanks for that link on the LT15 conversion. I just got around to reading it. You essentially built your own hydraulic mill. I don't use my mill much as you so I doubt I will go to the extent you did. Thanks again.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

WDH

I reverse rolled quartersawed a white oak log yesterday.  Still getting the hang of it.  One question for YH and others more proficient with this technique.  Sometimes my boards are wider at one end than the other.  Do you use the toeboards to level the log after each major turn?  Because of taper in the log, the gun barrelling does not leave each of the faces the same width all the way from the large end to the small end.



 

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Sixacresand

I loaded a 24" post oak on the mill last week and talked myself out of QS it.  lots of edging work,  The sap wood milled great,. In the heart had diving blade (brand new 4 degree) until I got a narrow cant.  Excessive sawdust left in the kerf.  Is it the nature of post oak or lack of hardwood milling experience?  :D
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

YellowHammer

I use the toebards a lot, and some taper is very common, however, I do try to find a least one good side with a relatively straight, non tapered face if possible to be the first or best reference face for turning.  Many times I won't use the toeboard to adjust the log, I will just use the clamp to squeeze and go up with it, pinning it against the backstops, lifting at will.  One smaller, very straight logs, I will forgo half of the gunbarreling, and only work the four major faces and leave the other 4 facets with bark on.  Saves a half of work gun barreling, and I have the edge everything anyway, so a little bark on the board isn't a problem.   

4° bands will leave a lot of packed sawdust in white oak.  Typically, I will turn my lube down some with them to keep it dusty, not like wet flour. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

PA_Walnut

What yellow said...

Yes, taper is a common challenge and you'll also have tapered edges, so an edger or more time on the mill is part of the game. (an acceptable trade-off to me in order to have rays on each board). On that note, I don't know what I'd ever do without my edger these days...it's ABSOLUTELY a joy to use, in comparison...for me. I have a Baker with a diesel on it, which is probably going later in the year as I'm likely converting to all electric--the mill, edger, etc. since I don't go portable.

Yellow is also spot-on with 4°: they leave PILES on dust behind. I actually go the other direction though and load-up with lube to help the cut not seem like it was chewed through, rather than sawn. I was sawing some HUGE logs the other day that were frozen. Switched from carbide to 4° due to hitting metal and the cut-quality was VASTLY different. (GRRRR  :-[) The carbide is my choice for almost everything now, except metal. Hitting metal with those pains me, but when dealing with big, high-value material, it's worth it.

Part of our post-process is to very diligently sweep as much dust off the stickered lumber (both sides) as possible. I often use a big leaf blower and post-dust the piles too, after it's dried a bit. In warmer weather and/or troublesome materials, it can make the difference between staining and not. It's a laborious, yet necessary part of our process. And yes, those 4° blades make it twice as hard.  :-\

TIP: I added a time-clock to my ops for my kids. They now clock-in and get paid weekly for actual WORK at the mill. My 11 year old daughter has become a rock star and end-sealer and sweeping boards!  8)
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

YellowHammer

Today I ran into a relatively common situation, trying to RRQS logs where even the halves are too big for the mill to manipulate well.  For my LT40, this means logs with a large diameter of about 45 inches or better.  Since I had my camera ready, I took some photos. Basically, the strategy is to Reverse the Reverse Roll, i.e. do the normal QS techniques in somewhat reverse order.  Don't gun barrel, simply RRQS with the bark until the cant gets manageable, then trim the bark.

So here we are, with a decent mid forty inch diameter tapered white oak log.  So first break out the 52" chainsaw and split it down the center line.  Using my best @customsawyer chainsaw technique, I split it in half and only missed the center on the far end by an inch or so.  


 

 

 

So now the problem is that the halves are so big, my two plane clamp struggles with them, as wall as my claw.  In addition, I'm out of vertical travel on the mill head and won't clear the log.  I can't begin to manipulate the halves for classic gun barreling. So anyway I can, get the half set up so that the corner is diagonal out toward the idler wheel, which gives me maximum clearance.  Notice the log half is much higher than the head travel, but no problem.  I get the half situated, then measure the distance from the pith to the bed, and raise the toeboards to get the pith level.  



 

Then I take a cut at pretty much max head height take off a decent sized hunk which I will RRQS later.  This now gives me a little clearance to better manipulate the half.  Notice the bark is still on the half, it doesn't matter as long as the pith is level.  

Then I rotate the half just a smudge and line up on a ray and take classic RRQS cuts.  








 
Bullseye, and I keep dropping and taking boards without moving anything.  This lets me trim the cant down to size, but every trim board has good fleck.  Of course it will have bark in one edge, but the point is high fleck QS wood is coming off from the first cuts.  I keep dropping until I get to the pith, and roll the much smaller cant to the other side and repeat the process.  

 
This photo clearly shows how I've rotated the piece and am taking cuts right along the radial cracks, scoring wide QS boards every pass.  

 

Once the cant gets manageable I skin the bark off, wedge trim the pith off and continue to saw it like normal RRQS.  


YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

fishpharmer

Built my own band mill with the help of Forestry Forum. 
Lucas 618 with 50" slabber
WoodmizerLT-40 Super Hydraulic
Deere 5065E mfwd w/553 loader

The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

PA_Walnut

Sweet!! This is a nice primer for me since I have a white oak about the exact same size that I need to tackle today or tomorrow.
I did note that you started out with a "BS" log! (see blue paint on end!)  ;D :D :D
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

customsawyer

I think BS stands for big sucker. :D
Good job on the chainsawing. I only hit it perfect when Danny is watching. He adds lots of pressure. Being off by a inch or two isn't the end of the world as you would normally trim out the pith anyway.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Peter Drouin

Big logs make wide wood. What is the average size lumber you have?
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

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