Small forestrymachines / Forwarders

[OddInTheForrest]

Hi all, and greetings from Norways West coast. 

I have a few ideas, and just need to get a second opinion or more. 

I have today the following machines stood in the yard. 
 - Pilkemaster Evo 36 trailered/selfpropelled proccesor
 - Shibaura S1500 tractor - Small, 24hp 4x4 machine, pure genious, very low maintenance.
 - Elkem/Farmi/Igland 3,5tonne winch, with 110m / 330`of 8mm wire, with mechanical brake, can be used for controlled felling, as I can apply the brake, tension up the line, and use it to pull trees over.
 - Eder 400 self propelled winch, capstan type, with 100m /300`and 50m/150`rope lines
 - A shitton of pulleys, snatchblocks, and a selfmade gravitytype smallscale skyline, made for uphill pulling, and down it goes with gravity. 
 - An assortment of chainsaws, as one needs to have.
 - Chinese ATV wagon, small timber trailer with an electrical 12v ATV winch for loading logs/sticks. 

Basically:
Ive been in the part time firewood buisness for quite a few years. 
Got the Pilkemaster for 8000USD second hand a few years ago.
Then got the Shibaura and winch for 3500USD from a buddy.


Then : 
Have had a change of career, now work in an office, used to work offshore. Used to have much more spare time, could use 6 weeks at the time in the woods, are now down to more a weekend warrior type of operation.

But : 
With the price of electricity in Norway nowadays, and with regards to how scraped the market is for firewood, I think I need to up my game. So the Pilkemaster stays, I dont think I could do without it, its just to handy. Can also be rented out, but ofcourse, that means renting it out to people who potentially break it. Kinda dont like that.

What I am really thinking : 
I am fidling the idea of selling the shibaura. Migth bring in somewhere around 3000USD, maybe up towards 4000. Keep the winch. Use it on the brother in laws New Holland 4050, just in case I need it. In laws are neighbours, very handy. Dont see the need for 2 tractors in our yard, also use the 4050 for plowing snow. 

The question of the day : 
I have been looking at Alstor 8x8 and Kranman Bison machines. For years. Alstor just launched their 4th gen machines. Ive been looking since Gen 1. Anyways. I find them extremely expencive. We are talking 45 000USD for a base model, and up towards 80 000USD for a closed cab modell. They can however be trailered behind my van. Kranman machines are the same, 6x6 machines, looking at atleast 40 000USD. For basically a baby forwarder. 
The reason I cant drop the idea of these machines are agility. So small and easy to manouver. Can sneak into any yard, leaves almost no trace, can carry quite a bit, and it has a crane. 
What I am imagining, is to be able to log our land, drive the machine straigth to our yard, feed it into the Pilkemaster, Have the NH tractor stood with big-bags under the conveyor of the Pilkemaster, and just drop the firewood rigth into the bag. Once the bag is full, I can store it for drying in the yard, and repeat the process. 

If we are realistic, I migth make 10 000USD a year doing this. With the setup I have now. That is, if there is time between traveling due to work, remodelling a relatively large house, and possibly adding an extencion to the house. 

Question of the day is there for : 
Do I keep stuff, or do I sell?
The pilkemaster stays, will need some form of splitter/processor anyways, so why not just keep it, as I own it. 

I know its senseless to sell the shibaura, to buy something 10x as expencive. But I kinda still want it. It migth sit in the yard 350 days a year. It migth not. I dont really know. It would be superhandy to have for clearing land around the house, and I have already gotten loads of questions from our neighbours, so I think I could keep busy for the next 10 years with logging around here. 
Might also need to say, I live in a rural island community, with aprox.5000 people. Everything needs to be transported via ferry, wich means, I could potentially supply many people here with firewood, if I am able to produce enough. 
I could produce with what I have now. I could do it witout the small tractor, and just get like an ATV. Would maybe be cheaper in the long run, but is it as fun?

The fun part of this is also something. I think it would be fun with newer equiptment. Its not rational to buy expencive stuff, but its not always feeling rational to fix broken old stuff either, cause stuff will break, damned if I know this. 

Any thoughts is much apreciated. 
Dont know if there is much sense to be made from this, but its my ideas at least. 

And if nothing else, I`d like to wish everyone a merry christmas from me in Norway.

Best Regards
Odd.

[stavebuyer]

Quite a bit to digest in that post!

Firewood is a tough game here. Potential sales price certainly can be a deciding factor. Low input, low output is risk free and usually can pay wages and not much more in my part of world which tends to trend toward lower income and lower pricing. Some living near larger markets and longer winters may sell firewood for triple the price for the same product. Makes a huge difference on what equipment can be justified. In my case keeping a small paid for tractor and scratching around would be a wise choice. Someone selling in an urban east coast market would have entirely different realities to consider. New toys can be easier to buy than pay for in my market,

[OddInTheForrest]

That tends to be what I think too. Was raised to not buy before one has the money. But having 60K USD at hand, migth be hard to do, given the fact that life apart from firewoodcutting also comes with expences.

[wisconsitom]

Oddin, it seems you've already answered your own question!  I think it likely not to pencil out, but.....you mentioned the key word-fun!  When I used to look at all those nice Euro mini-forwarders I would just drool.  We can't get stuff like that here stateside.  I too would love to have such a unit, but it is not going to happen.

Maybe a more full-fledged firewood show could work out as you describe, on that island community.  Best of luck.

[Old Greenhorn]

Odd,
 Godt morn og Godt Jul! You live in a beautiful part of the world. I have only passed by you area once in 1993 when I was traveling from Stavanger to Bergen, but what wonderful country. As far as I can tell, your island is mostly flat with heavy tree growth, unlike many along the coast with large rocky peaks, scrub growth, and cliffs. It appears to be good ground for firewood. I thought there was at least one bridge going to that island?

 That processor you have is pretty nice, what we might call a medium production size here. I am not a wood processor myself, but I cut 10 cord a year for my home and shop. I think you might get some more detailed answers if we could connect the ways things are done there to how we do them here. So some questions: what is the basic sale unit for your firewood? Here we use 'cords' which are defined as 4'x4'x8' stack or exactly 128 cubic feet.(3.52 cubic meters) and the going price in my area is (roughly) around $250. USD/cord. Do you sell in similar quantities or smaller? I think birch is your preferred wood there. Here in my area it is all hardwoods such as Oak, Maple, Ash, or Beech. In the northern areas where hardwoods are not prevalent, softwoods are used. (Canada, Alaska, some parts of Maine, etc.) These are all generalizations, but the point is it would be helpful to know what your market is like so some comparisons could be made.
 
 For a side business I think having equipment that is paid for, even if it limits your output a little, is a very valuable thing. Any debt your incur for bigger/better gear could eat up any and all profits for years to come. Working time matters a lot when you have debt. Have you worked a season yet in your new job to see how much time you can get and if you can keep up with demand? Do you have labor help, or is this a solo operation? Working 2 jobs (and perhaps a farm besides) can be very challenging and so cold affect any equipment plans you might have. Telling us more about the details of the business there might get you some interesting thoughts. It all comes down to money so knowing what the 'unit cost' is over there would help us all understand what might work better for you.

 Mine Bestemor var fra Mandal og mine Bestefar var fra Grimstad. I have a cousin whose husband works out of Stavanger for Statoil and oversees drilling on a couple of North Sea rigs and one or two in the Middle East.

 Best of luck with your decisions. I will be reading along as the smarter people throw in their thoughts.

[mike_belben]

Id never sell a running machine in an inflationary environment. Its value is always growing if your country is printing money.  In a few years it could cost double or triple to replace.  

Please share pics of your yarder!

[OddInTheForrest]

Oddin, it seems you've already answered your own question!  I think it likely not to pencil out, but.....you mentioned the key word-fun!  When I used to look at all those nice Euro mini-forwarders I would just drool.  We can't get stuff like that here stateside.  I too would love to have such a unit, but it is not going to happen.

Maybe a more full-fledged firewood show could work out as you describe, on that island community.  Best of luck.

It migth work, who knows ;)

[OddInTheForrest]

Odd,
Godt morn og Godt Jul! You live in a beautiful part of the world. I have only passed by you area once in 1993 when I was traveling from Stavanger to Bergen, but what wonderful country. As far as I can tell, your island is mostly flat with heavy tree growth, unlike many along the coast with large rocky peaks, scrub growth, and cliffs. It appears to be good ground for firewood. I thought there was at least one bridge going to that island?

That processor you have is pretty nice, what we might call a medium production size here. I am not a wood processor myself, but I cut 10 cord a year for my home and shop. I think you might get some more detailed answers if we could connect the ways things are done there to how we do them here. So some questions: what is the basic sale unit for your firewood? Here we use 'cords' which are defined as 4'x4'x8' stack or exactly 128 cubic feet.(3.52 cubic meters) and the going price in my area is (roughly) around $250. USD/cord. Do you sell in similar quantities or smaller? I think birch is your preferred wood there. Here in my area it is all hardwoods such as Oak, Maple, Ash, or Beech. In the northern areas where hardwoods are not prevalent, softwoods are used. (Canada, Alaska, some parts of Maine, etc.) These are all generalizations, but the point is it would be helpful to know what your market is like so some comparisons could be made.

For a side business I think having equipment that is paid for, even if it limits your output a little, is a very valuable thing. Any debt your incur for bigger/better gear could eat up any and all profits for years to come. Working time matters a lot when you have debt. Have you worked a season yet in your new job to see how much time you can get and if you can keep up with demand? Do you have labor help, or is this a solo operation? Working 2 jobs (and perhaps a farm besides) can be very challenging and so cold affect any equipment plans you might have. Telling us more about the details of the business there might get you some interesting thoughts. It all comes down to money so knowing what the 'unit cost' is over there would help us all understand what might work better for you.

Mine Bestemor var fra Mandal og mine Bestefar var fra Grimstad. I have a cousin whose husband works out of Stavanger for Statoil and oversees drilling on a couple of North Sea rigs and one or two in the Middle East.

Best of luck with your decisions. I will be reading along as the smarter people throw in their thoughts.

I`ll try to answer as best as I can here : 
We mostly sell bagged firewood. Either in 40 or 60 Liter bags. Then its all calculated differently depending on who you ask here, but I mostly do mine in cubic metre or Liters. 
What we call "Favn" in norway, is 2,4m3 or 2400L. I normally sell 40 x60L bags, as 1 "favn", even though its only 36 according to math. 
I charge 1 NOK pr Liter most times, but not if im doing birch ! I then sell a 40L bag for 50NOK (5 USD ) or 60L Birch for 75NOK (7,5USD). 
So anyone good with math, can see that it would take a long time and a lot of dedication to pay a machine that would cost 70 000 USD, like one of those small forwarders. 
By all means, this is just a sidegig for me. I have a 8-4 office job nowadays, and it makes me more than I could ever make with my equiptment in the woods. But the idea of doing a larger scale operation, with small scale /Low impact machines, oh yes. I really like the idea. 
Not too sure if I, or any of you other, will ever get any more knowledgeble by my ramblings, but it helps to write it all down ;) Wanna wish everyone a great new year as well, look forward to the new year on the forum !

[mike_belben]

take the tractor you considered selling and build it into a dedicated 6x6 articulated forwarder by grafting it to a bunk trailer with hydraulic assist drive motors. those ones on swingarms that engage the tire lug.  

or find an old junk RWD car or truck and use the trasmission, driveshaft and rear axle to make the trailer powered by your PTO shaft. have the PTO shaft go to a keyed jackshaft mounted above or below the tranny input shaft on a pair of flange bearings, parallel to the tranny input.  a chain couples the PTO shaft to the tranny, and another to a very big hydraulic pump.  use that to power your log loader crane.  it has to be big to get the flow volume at just 540 RPM compared to typically 3600 on gassers. i would shoot for between 6 and 10 gpm.  itll seem a bit slow to some but with much more precise control and less thrashing around and twitchy operating that ends up being faster, safer and less abusive to the entire structure.  and it wont lug the tractor up and down.  smooth operation no matter how dumb the operator is, to me, is a hallmark of a well built machine.  fast and jerky just smashes more stuff and cracks more welds.


hydraulic steer, solid articulation joint with a live toplink to change the hood angle on the tractor, and front axle removed will make it a much much nicer machine to drive in the woods.  a plain old tractor with its steer axle still providing directional control, dragging a regular old trailer works ...but is very crude in tight woods compared to an articulated system... and will get you slid and wedged into trees very quick on a muddy sidehill.

[OddInTheForrest]

take the tractor you considered selling and build it into a dedicated 6x6 articulated forwarder by grafting it to a bunk trailer with hydraulic assist drive motors. those ones on swingarms that engage the tire lug.  

or find an old junk RWD car or truck and use the trasmission, driveshaft and rear axle to make the trailer powered by your PTO shaft. have the PTO shaft go to a keyed jackshaft mounted above or below the tranny input shaft on a pair of flange bearings, parallel to the tranny input.  a chain couples the PTO shaft to the tranny, and another to a very big hydraulic pump.  use that to power your log loader crane.  it has to be big to get the flow volume at just 540 RPM compared to typically 3600 on gassers. i would shoot for between 6 and 10 gpm.  itll seem a bit slow to some but with much more precise control and less thrashing around and twitchy operating that ends up being faster, safer and less abusive to the entire structure.  and it wont lug the tractor up and down.  smooth operation no matter how dumb the operator is, to me, is a hallmark of a well built machine.  fast and jerky just smashes more stuff and cracks more welds.


hydraulic steer, solid articulation joint with a live toplink to change the hood angle on the tractor, and front axle removed will make it a much much nicer machine to drive in the woods.  a plain old tractor with its steer axle still providing directional control, dragging a regular old trailer works ...but is very crude in tight woods compared to an articulated system... and will get you slid and wedged into trees very quick on a muddy sidehill.

Have concidered this as well ! 
After 10 years of driving and maintaining larger offshore cranes, I stand with you in regards to pumpsize and operation / operator. Some of the [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] one sees some places..
My only issue with all this is the roadlegality of it. 
Say if I build one, Im sure its gonna end up relatively cheap and usefull, no doubt about it. But I`ll probably see myself shot if I where to venture out on the road with it. Nor could I be able to get any insurance company to vouch for it, if I wanted to have a larger scale company with legally owned assets. (Yes, I know, its not like that in the rest of the world). 
If I where to buy or lease a small machine from Alstor or Kranman in Sweden, they would come with a bunch of papers making it legal for use on the road (less than 20km/h), and I could legally own it with a norwegian equcivalent of an LTD, also called an "AS" in Norway. That means a lot of things in practical terms, in form of assets to company, value of company and taxrules. 
But yes, I totally see your point. And yes, I very often wish the rules from our government wherent so extremelly square. It would make things fairly easy.

[gaproperty]

East Coast Canada.  I have a 47 horse power 4x4 tractor but sometimes it is easier to use the ATV.  Here is a video that shows one of those situations. [color=var(--ytcp-call-to-action)]https://youtu.be/J_hC_E4tis0[/color]

[gaproperty]

Quite a bit to digest in that post!

Firewood is a tough game here. Potential sales price certainly can be a deciding factor. Low input, low output is risk free and usually can pay wages and not much more in my part of world which tends to trend toward lower income and lower pricing. Some living near larger markets and longer winters may sell firewood for triple the price for the same product. Makes a huge difference on what equipment can be justified. In my case keeping a small paid for tractor and scratching around would be a wise choice. Someone selling in an urban east coast market would have entirely different realities to consider. New toys can be easier to buy than pay for in my market,

Totally agree. Here is the east coast of Canada the price and land doubled so now even buying a woodlot or getting access to a wood lot is a challenge.  The worse things is it is very hard for a small scale guy to compete with the big Irving and other lumber companies who getting free stumpage from the government.  It was free now they pay very little and there is a big long story behind that as well.  

[thecfarm]

Don't get swampdonkey going on them Irving people.  ;D  :(
And I can understand why too.