iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Is Western Cedar ok to use as fence post.

Started by just_sawing, May 29, 2009, 06:38:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

just_sawing

Just had a customer today stop by and tell me he was hired to install western cedar fence post for fencing. I didn't think they would last. They are not treated.
You can follow me at
www.http://haneyfamilysawmill.com

G-sawing

I agree cedar in the ground in the south will not last.
Should you find your self in a fair fight, you're using poor tactics.

ID4ster

He'll need to treat them. I've used several posts from cedar tops that I have access to and they all rotted off in a couple of years. Treat em or scorch them and wrap them in plastic and they'll last a good long time.
Bob Hassoldt
Seven Ridges Forestry
Kendrick, Idaho
Want to improve your woodlot the fastest way? Start thinning, believe me it needs it.

ErikC

  WRC posts last well here. They need to be free of sapwood, and not wrapped in plastic or concrete. This hastens decay. Put strait in the ground with all the sap trimmed of, 20 years or so around here.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

easymoney

around here a lot of people use cedar for fence posts.

SwampDonkey

I agree with Eric, western red cedar will last a long time as long as it's not the sapwood. I've seen sound logs laying in the rain forest cut in the 40's and the sap on the outer 2" of the log was gone but the log would be fine with the sweet smell of western red cedar when chopped with an axe. I have an eastern white cedar post that has held a plastic pipe from the well head for 40 years. Those old dead cedar snags will stand in the woods for decades.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Banjo picker

The western cedar i have been in contact in the south will not even hold up very good as siding ,  i would hate to think of putting it in the ground.  Maybe we are just getting the junk.  Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

kderby

Wow, some different replies than I expected.  A fence post study in Oregon had western red cedar near the top in decay resistance.  Redwood and western juniper are the softwoods that outlast it.  Black locust and osage orange are incredible post material but not generally available in Oregon.  For ground contact most of what gets used are treated posts and old railroad ties.  Western juniper (Juniperous occidentalis) is "organic" decay resistant and gaining market presance. Y'all have eastern red cedar (juniperous virginiana).  How does that work in the ground? I did not know western red cedar would not hold up "down there."

Charring is voodoo.....prove otherwise! :P :P :P :P

The heart wood versus sap wood is a real issue.  There are a lot of "redwood" decks made from sap wood (junk). 
Treated wood is quite effective if treated properly.  Green stain does not mean the post is treated properly.

Such is my often humbled opinion. ::) ::)

Kderby   

boardum

It seems to just depend on what part of the country your in and the associated climate.
   Here on the Oregon coast I have made, sold and used Western Red Cedar Posts all my life, (thousands). A few things along the way. Split posts last longer than sawn posts. The sap wood will rot off more quickly. When possible use Old Growth Material. Leave post to season in the air for at least a couple of months, preferably one year before planting. They always rot off at ground level.  Depending on the soil, they will last from 15 to30 years.
   
     Here with out 130 to 200 inches of rain, cedar siding will last over 100 years. I have delivered our shingles to jobs many times where the home owner is replacing siding on one wall or putting them on an addition where the original shingles were installed near 1900.
   
     Having salvaged Western red cedar, I've cut logs out from under Cedar stumps where the tree that grew on top was over 600 years old and the log under was better quality wood than the tree that grew and died on top of it. The bottom tree having grown up suppressed under a canopy,(true old growth not just big trees), finer grain. The top tree having had more light (wider growth rings) for the fist 100 years or so of it's life.
    Just my opinion having cut shakes, shingles, owning and operating a Cedar mill.
     

ErikC

Quote from: SwampDonkey on May 29, 2009, 09:25:21 PM
I agree with Eric, western red cedar will last a long time as long as it's not the sapwood. I've seen sound logs laying in the rain forest cut in the 40's and the sap on the outer 2" of the log was gone but the log would be fine with the sweet smell of western red cedar when chopped with an axe. I have an eastern white cedar post that has held a plastic pipe from the well head for 40 years. Those old dead cedar snags will stand in the woods for decades.
When we go out to look for posts to cut, we like those old down trees down in the creekbottoms or somewhere like that. The best ones are suspended off the ground, and in a moist area. No sapwood to split off, and they look neat in a fence. Once the sap is gone there is completely sound wood that has laid in the woods for decades.
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

mike_van

The heartwood of eastern red cedar lasts pretty good. Everyone here sets the whole post though, sapwood & all. The result is in a few years the sapwood rots away & you have a loose post.
I was the smartest 16 year old I ever knew.

Banjo picker

Here in NE Miss there is not a lot of red cedar , but there are lots of termites, and the only wood localy that you will find on the forest floor in any quanity is the heart wood  ( pine knots down south) from the old slow growth pine. Everything else in my woods disolves back into the ground at a pretty much rapid pace.  Tim
Never explain, your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you any way.

just_sawing

From What I have learned here and other places is if your up north yes you can use Western Cedar. But here in the south the bacterial action due to our ground not ever really freezing will rot the post sap and all.
In the south
Number 1 best Bowdock or osage orange.
2 Heart Locust (Black Locust)
3 Red Eastern Cedar. I put the locust and walnut above because of the better strength.
4 Heart Walnut
You can follow me at
www.http://haneyfamilysawmill.com

backwoods sawyer

Never heard of a true "Western red cedar" rotting off in less then 20 years. Who would have thunk it!!!
I am installing a "reclaimed" Pecky Western red cedar fence that had been in the ground 15 years and the post look as solid as ever and we are zone 7 as well.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

blame

i've been building fence for the last 15 years  never used western red ceder but have eastern and it last ok  8 to 10 years. i mostly use black locust and hedge but been known to use mulberry and post oak to.

SwampDonkey

Yellow cypress/Alaskan cedar would last even longer. I've seen them lay in muck holes and be sound under the sapwood as long as the tree had no shattering or splitting when it fell. Probably hard to come by any at the mills, the export market usually takes it.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Cedarman

I pulled a couple of quartered fence posts that I planted in 1980.   I cross cut at what was 1 1/2 feet under ground in clay wet soil, at ground level and 1 foot above ground level.  Sapwood discolored and semi sound in underground piece.  Sapwood gone at ground level.  Sapwood still sound at 1 foot above ground level.  All heartwood as sound as when planted.  I know of cedar in Tipton Co Indiana that are still good after over 100 years in the ground.  Well weathered, but functional.   They were sawn 4x4 top and 5x5 base.  We replaced some western red cedar post at a historical residence in  Louisville Ky that were only 10 or so years old that had rotted off.  They specified all heartwood sawn posts of ERC.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Brucer

Don't be mixing up Eastern Red Cedar and Western Red Cedar. They are completely unrelated species.

I've seen posts made from the heartwood of WRC last 20 years (and counting) in well-drained soil. I once built a rough fence using small-diameter WRC trunks, including the sapwood, and they didn't make it to 10 years.

My raised-bed garden boxes are made from untreated WRC heartwood. After 10 years the decay has penetrated about 1/2" on the inside. Still sound on the outside.

Power poles and telephone poles in these parts are usually WRC. The butts are pressure treated with creosote, to about 2' above the surface. The tops are left untreated. When they raised the distribution voltage to 25,000 volts they had to put taller poles in along my driveway. I had a good look at the 20-year old poles they removed and there was no sign of decay in either the treated or untreated parts.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

SwampDonkey



Power pole made from eastern white cedar (northern white) placed in the mid 40's. Still has the NB Power pole number. They took most these down around 1980 and replaced with creosote pine, then after 15 years they replaced all those with pressure treated poles because they thought the creosote would contaminate wells. It used to run to the bottom of the poles in the summer heat. I saw some newer cedar poles out at a sugar shack a year ago, they looked great to me. I thought, here we are, back to where we started. There was nothing wrong with cedar power poles. I've seen pine poles snap off in storms, so that was no plus to make the change.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Brucer

Eastern White Cedar being the only North American "cedar" species related to Western Red Cedar.

Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata): "The wood is very light in weight and is suitable for all uses in conditions favourable to decay. It is especially prized for poles, posts, shingles, and house-siding."

Eastern White Cedar (Thuja occidentalis): "I is particularly valuable for poles, posts, shingles, canoes, and boat-building, and, in fact, in any situation where timber is exposed to decay without great mechanical wear."

Both quotes from "Native Trees of Canada, 5th edition, published in 1956.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

SwampDonkey

If you grew up around the local salmon angling traditions in New Brunswick, all canvass back canoes used by the guides were ribbed with eastern white cedar. I have one that was used by a guide, made by Miller, that is probably 60 years old. Chestnut Canoes was the brand of canoe most "outsiders" recall when talking about Salmon fishing from a canvass back. Maine also has the same heritage of salmon fishing and have their well known local brands as well. Many folks from either side of "The Line" fished and guided back and forth. During the depression years my grandfather said there wasn't even a blip to the guiding business. There were still lots of people with money coming to spend it for the chance to enjoy a nice Atlantic salmon for supper, lots of good home cooked meals (some just came to eat) :D , and to relax in a canvass back.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Thank You Sponsors!