Introduction / Milling production question / saw mill path forward

[BeeBazaar]

Greetings all-

I'm a hobbyist wood worker.  I've decided that I want to mill my own lumber like many of you.  I have read and researched and decided to build my own equipment.  I recently finished (not finished) a log arch.  I had purchased the Procut plans and started planning for that.  With the cost of a chainsaw, though, I think I can build a bandsaw for less money than the needed chainsaw and since general consensus seems to be bandsaws are the cut of choice anyway. (not to start a debate here)  I have Lurked here for a while and recently joined since I have some questions I don't see answers too or cant find.

I would love to build my own cabinets and hardwood floor out of trees I milled myself or other stuff too as I desire.  My current ambition is cherry cabinets for the house, which is underway though very early still

So 1 question I have is this:   I read people say "I cut 1000 bf"  I understand what a bf is.  but say I have a log that is 100 bf, and I cut it at 2" thick and another that is identical and i cut it at 1" thick.  The 1" thik would require twice the cuts, twice the wear on the equipment twice the time.  yet they are both 100 bf.  what am I missing here?  or does that not come into consideration?  seems like cheating to me if you are cutting large slabs compared to someone cutting 1x2's for cabinet trim or something?

My other question is on Log dogs on mills.  they always seem so tall like they will be in the way of the blade.  why is this?  Why not make a low profile dog that only needs set once for all the cuts?  or is there an advantage to having them just below the blade of each cut?  It seems like adjusting them on every pass is unproductive.  But I've never milled before so what do i know?

This is my dolly I designed and made.   it is completely modular.  2 dollies that connect.  I got a bunch a free cherry about 20" OD but there are no tractors or 4 wheelers allowed.  so it has to be man powered out.  This was my 1st use of it.  it worked well but the steering wheels didnt track naturally like I hoped.  I will need to redesign.  but with my 1st attempt I was very happy.  I will either put a wagon style steer in place or have them angled back like the wheels on a zero turn.  apparently the wheels don't go straight under the spindle for a reason lol

So far I have a fair amount of white ash and black cherry.  The dolly can accommodate a 24" log.  The white ash was ~1800 lbs I think which I think is reaching my max for my set up.



 

 

 

 

 

 

[WV Sawmiller]

My other question is on Log dogs on mills.  they always seem so tall like they will be in the way of the blade.  why is this?  Why not make a low profile dog that only needs set once for all the cuts?  or is there an advantage to having them just below the blade of each cut?  It seems like adjusting them on every pass is unproductive.  But I've never milled before so what do i know?

Are you talking about the short, fixed dog or the adjustable side supports? The fixed log dogs (They probably have a more proper office name but that's all I've heard them called too) are basically designed to clamp square cut edges against. The side supports are designed to hold taller logs and cants firmly while they are being sawed. On a fresh loaded round log the wood never even touches the log dog. Once you've made a few cuts and flip the log/cant you have a square edge that will clamp tightly against the low fixed log dog.

 I hope that answers your question. If not please rephrase and repeat.

[Magicman]

but say I have a log that is 100 bf, and I cut it at 2" thick and another that is identical and i cut it at 1" thick. The 1" thik would require twice the cuts, twice the wear on the equipment twice the time. yet they are both 100 bf. what am I missing here?

You are correct and not missing anything.  I sawed a job last week that was 1" Oak and I averaged ~1200bf per day.  I later sawed the Pine on the same job into framing lumber and my daily average jumped up to ~2000bf per day.  I charge the exact same for sawing regardless if the cut list.  Yup, some days I make more $$$ than other days but it averages out so I am not concerned about it.  I refuse to adjust my sawing rates to accommodate different board thicknesses.  BTW, I charge the same sawing rate for sawing 12X12's and I only make 4 passes.  What takes time here is measuring, setting the log up to insure that you will make the 12X12, and then handling that monster.   On a job last year I sawed about a dozen or so 16X16's. 

Your other question was regarding the side supports.  You are correct but you need the height to handle and turn logs and cants.  The side supports and log clamp are lowered before the cant is sawed into lumber but now enters the human factor.  Sometime we have a brain fart and forget to do the lowering or fail to lower far enough.  So now, what is the joy of sawing if you don't screw up and make a few sparks.  Everything that sticks up above my sawmill bed rails has battle scars to prove that I am still human and still make mistakes.   ;D

Welcome to the Forestry Forum. 

[Crusarius]

you should add a battery and wheelchair motors to the log arch. make getting those logs out much easier.

I would love to see another mill build. I can never get enough

[longtime lurker]

but say I have a log that is 100 bf, and I cut it at 2" thick and another that is identical and i cut it at 1" thick.  The 1" thik would require twice the cuts, twice the wear on the equipment twice the time.  yet they are both 100 bf.  what am I missing here?

Part of owning and operating a business is you get to decide how you charge and what you charge. Unlike Magicman I do charge extra for sawing 5/4 or thinner. So if we were to quote the same job we'd come out with different pricing depending on the mix of sizes sawn. Another guy might quote the same job as hourly rate. None of us is wrong or right in our approach, we've just each found a system that works for us as individuals and suits our respective businesses.

I did a small contract sawing job on Monday morning, around 750 BF of log cut as 4/4 and 3/4 boards. It took me roughly 2.5 hours including interruptions. Had the same logs gone through as 2" lumber it would have taken around 45 minutes and I'd have been into the next order that much sooner. I pay my staff by the hour so the extra time cost has to be recouped, and the customer is the one who gets to pay that cost. The only variable is in how you calculate it

[Roundhouse]

My other question is on Log dogs on mills.  they always seem so tall like they will be in the way of the blade.  why is this?  Why not make a low profile dog that only needs set once for all the cuts?  or is there an advantage to having them just below the blade of each cut?  It seems like adjusting them on every pass is unproductive.  But I've never milled before so what do i know?

Welcome.
I'll offer my two cents on the above. Granted, my band mill is entirely manual. Hydraulic controls can impact the steps taken in sawing along the speed and ease of taking those steps (I imagine). If watching my process the back stops and clamp can seem high and that's a function of stability. For the initial cuts the log may be a little unruly and I have to make sure both sides have good purchase to keep everything steady on those first cuts. If things are working as they should I'm only making adjustments to the stops and clamps each time I rotate the log, as part of that process. Once I'm working with a flat cut surface resting on the bed of the mill things get a lot more stable and I start setting the back stops as low as possible. When I'm on my final cant I usually put the stops and clamp down below the last planned cut. I only find myself lowering the stops and clamp more frequently than on a rotation when there is another stability issue such as edging a stack of thin boards.

[Southside]

There are times when you have to keep the clamp and back stops up high as not all logs are round, sweep, defects, rot, will dictate that the only place to hold the log is higher than "normal". Wane on a cant will also cause you to have to grab higher.  

Every log is different and you want as much user flexibility and capacity in your mill as possible. 

[Magicman]

As you can quickly see, there are no correct nor incorrect answers, just different based on our individual sawing/business profile. 

I should have added that all helpers/tailgunners and log handling equipment is the customer's responsibility.  My only expense is my own.  Also, 90%+ of my sawing is SYP framing lumber so sawing 1", etc. is a very small portion of my sawing so I choose to just let it average out.  I am sure that if 1" was close to 50% I would be adjusting my sawing rate.

[BeeBazaar]

you should add a battery and wheelchair motors to the log arch. make getting those logs out much easier.

I would love to see another mill build. I can never get enough


I was in a time crunch for the cherry, but There is definitely room for improvement.  I have to fix the steering period.  Ideally though, I remove the front arch and can use a tractor or ATV with a hitch.  I'm working on your mill build thread.  a lot of useful info there.  Very nice!









Thanks for the info all.  Its hard to wrap my head around for the production "numbers alone", but i've no experience that's why I asked.  It still feels like cheating though lol     The log dogs and uprights etc make sense now.  Im sure thats something that runnign will help get a feel for too

[WV Sawmiller]

  Like the MM my help is customer responsibility. I know some sawyers charge different rates for different thicknesses and even for hardwood vs softwood. An hourly rate solves many of this questions but one question it never answers to a new customer is "What is my sawing going to cost me?" We can give him a range and remind him the better prepared the logs are and the better and faster his help is, the less he will pay the sawyer but we cannot give an exact rate. When pricing by the bf we can tell him exactly what the sawing will cost. His time and labor are still his responsibility. I, and most sawyers I think, do tell the customer lumber thinner than one inch is billed as if it we one inch thick (Basically by the square foot for thin cuts).

There is a good case to be made for simplicity. Trying to explain different prices for different thicknesses or different species is harder for the customer to understand and takes longer to tally at the end of the job so I choose to use one standard bf rate for most cases. When I finish sawing I open up this laptop to my previously prepared spreadsheet, we measure and count the stacks/boards and plug in the info and the computer spits out the exact cost he will pay.

 My rate is designed that I make an acceptable profit on worse case jobs that take longer and the real good jobs with thicker cuts in good straight soft wood is gravy.  But if the customer gives me a cut list ahead of time and tells me "This is what I want to cut" I can tell him ahead of time exactly what he will pay for my sawing services.

I have said many times "All charging methods and rates are fair as long as both parties understand and agree before the first log is sawed."

[customsawyer]

I charge the same for most regular sawing. 1x, 2x or timbers. For my set up it takes the same amount of time to load and handle the log. I can actually saw 2x a little quicker but the handling and stacking of them are a little slower due to the extra weight. Yesterday we cut a little over  6000 bf of 1x pine and stacked it on stickers as we sawed. If we had been sawing 2x we might have sawed a little more but I doubt it. The hired help would have been really given out stacking those heavy rascals on stickers. If I was more automated than 2x would be faster. 

[Sod saw]

.


My 4 back stops are hydraulic .  For most logs, they go up high enough and as the log is cut down, the back stops are lowered (unless I overlook and try to cut them off)

When there is a larger log (3 feet + or so diameter) on the bed and the mill attempts to turn the log over, if the bark is rough, sometimes the log will try to climb up on the backstops.  If I allowed the log to climb too high it could fall off the drive side and I don't want to think about the end result.

To prevent the log from climbing up the back stops, I will place a pipe over a couple of those backstops.  The pipe is close to 3 feet long and is high enough to let the log turn easily.

Good luck and have fun with your new build.


.