Did You know - outdoor edition

[Roxie]

Ground hogs can climb trees and mockingbirds return to the same place to nest and will slam into your back when you mow near the nest?  

Possums love pink impatience and eat down the row similar to the way we eat corn on the cob?  

[WV Sawmiller]

   I did not know groundhogs could climb trees or that possums ate down the row of corn. I have heard that possums eat a lot of ticks and have homodont (All the same shape) teeth. I know mockingbirds, and some other small songbirds, will chase crows. I know crows and blue jays (which are a first cousin to the crow) will attack owls, hawks and eagles. Once at my in-laws in N. Alabama I bet there were well over 200 crows circling and calling. If you looked closely in the middle was a small dot that was a red-tailed hawk. I don't see how he could survive a concerted attack by that many crows. 

[SawyerTed]

Speaking of possums, one of the most memorable sermons I ever heard was, "Why indecision killed the possum."  The Late Reverend A.B. Weaver from Jefferson, NC preached it at a revival when I was a teenager.  The illustration was of the indecisive possum running back and forth on the road in the glare of your car headlights. A.B. was the funniest man I ever have known, somehow his humor was dead serious at times.

I learned that groundhogs climb trees like a cat shortly after we moved to Emily's family farm back in 1988.  There was a huge population of the old whistle pigs.  My task was to decrease the groundhog population in my free time.  One wisened old bull groundhog would appear and disappear before I could get a shot.  One day I switched my hunting location to the opposite side of a group of trees.  The old groundhog came out, looked in the direction that I had been sitting then promptly climbed a tree.  Just like a squirrel he jumped from one tree to another.  It was on his climb down the second tree that he met his demise.  
 
I have a little dog now that keeps the possum and groundhog population in check along with the coyotes. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   Did you know lions can climb trees? We saw a lioness not far from our lodge on Nukuru Game Park resting on top of the branches of an acacia tree about 20' above ground right at sunset. I can see how they could pull themselves up the trunk of the tree but to this day I don't know how she climbed up on top of all the small branches. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   Did you know that bullfrogs are cannibals? If fact I think a bullfrog will eat anything he can get down his throat and his mouth opens almost 180 degrees. When I used to gig a lot of them in N. Fla in my late teens and early 20's the main thing I found in their stomachs were crawfish but I also found small turtles, snakes, and bluegills. I had one in a 55 gallon aquarium in NC and the kids gave me a baby snapping turtle I was real proud of till the bullfrog ate it. The frog weighed about a pound. (I have gigged them that weighed over 2.5 lbs.) I caught another that weighed about 1/3 of a pound and put him in the aquarium but he disappeared shortly thereafter and we thought he had escaped and we'd find him in the house later - maybe by the smell under a worse case scenario which did not make my wife some happy! We went to clean out the aquarium and I caught the big frog to put in temporary quarters and looked and saw the tips if the smaller frogs toes sticking out his mouth.

  My next door neighbor here in WV had a small pond and some ducks and he came by one day just in time to rescue a duckling when I saw a big bullfrog  jump and land right on top of Daffy Jr. The frog had his lips completely around the duckling and if Billy had not been there when he was it would have been a gone duckling.

  A bullfrog will eat anything he can catch. I have hooked but never landed them on a fly rod with a cork bug when fishing for bluegills. It is a fierce battle and lots of fun but they always broke my line. I have caught them with plastic worms when bass fishing. I'd see one on the bank or shallow water and toss the worm past him and drag it by him and twitch it and there would be an explosion in the water's edge and a quick battle to bring the frog in.

  (I once hooked a big old hoot owl on the Suwannee River with plastic worm in a live oak over the river the same way but he broke free too after I had pulled him down into the river. He floated a few seconds looking awful confused then started flapping and got air under his wings and broke my line.)

  I gigged a bunch of bullfrogs in Beaufort SC when my son was about three and cleaned them telling him I was "taking their clothes off". After a while my son handed me a skinned frog and told me "Okay Daddy. Put his clothes back on."

[SawyerTed]

I once caught a bat on a plastic worm in the air!  Unfortunately it got a broken wing and flopped around on the pond until some large fish took it with a huge splash. 

Frog gigging is not something I've done.  It sounds like it provides lots of opportunity for adventure!  

At one time there were enough oysters in the sounds of North Carolina they could filter the water in all the sounds every three days!  

Flounder gigging is something I've done and occasionally a Stargazer fish will be mistaken for a flattie.  It's a weird thing full of terrible teeth.  

[WV Sawmiller]

Ted,

 I never gigged flounders but the back ends of my Samburu and Masaai spears have a barbless spear just like the flounder gigs people used to use in the Gulf of Mexico around Pensacola. I guess I could use them. I have heard of several people who gigged their own feet when shuffling around in a little bit of murky water.

 While very modest I must confess, I was dang good as a frog gigger in my teens! I'd take the 6V tractor battery out of our old Farmall Cub, had a pair of alligator clamps hooked to about 10-12 ft of lamp cord connected to a Ray-O-Vac 6v head light so I could travel anywhere in my 12' aluminum jonboat. I had to change the bulbs from normal PR13 to PR18 I think it was because the extra amps would blow them often. I kept plenty of spares with me too. I could spot an amber eye of a big bullfrog behind a log from the reflection in the water for several hundred yards. The first thing you normally see is that big white belly. My gig pole was bamboo and 2' longer than my boat so I could run right up to the frog and spear him. I used a square gig with 5 points (One on each corner and one in the middle) that was wicked. When hunting in ponds and sloughs you'd have to use a canoe or scull the boat really quietly because at the first sign of a paddle scraping on the side of the boat or a little wake reaching him the frog would go under if in the water or jump in the water if on the bank. I mostly hunted the Escambia River where boat traffic was common and I could idle my outboard right up to the frog as he was used to the sound. Also the waves from the boats tended to make the frog sit further back on the bank instead of right in the waters edge.  It was critical to keep the light on him once you spotted him to hold him motionless. I'd point the gig at him and drive the boat right into him giving the gig a short jab when I was about 6" from him. Newcomers tend to want to stab at the frog from 4' away and I don't know how many times I'd see them spear the sand right under the frog. Once I speared one I would usually slide my hand down the gig and grab him unless I was confident I had speared him solidly through the backbone as a frog would push off and escape a very serious wound. Once you had the frog on the end of the gig it was time to carefully search the overhead willows (a frog's favorite hangout) and surrounding area for snakes. You could not hold the frog at bay with your light and search the area at the same time so priority had to go to holding the frog at bay. Once the light was out of his eyes he'd jump so you had to be moderately insane to go in after them. I have had snakes jump on a struggling, bellowing frog I had just speared and that is a very annoying and will also elevate your heartrate real quick and in a hurry. Never gig a snake except in self defense and a last resort as they are very hard to get off the gig and it thoroughly piths them off.

 If you happen to miss a frog, not that that has ever happened to me of course, mark the spot, run up the river and gig another frog then turn around and come back as after a couple of minutes he will be right back up.

 I have had frogs jump in the river then immediately jump back out on the bank. I always wondered what he saw down there to make him do that. The hardest frog to get and the one that will most often escape is the one that takes refuge over land and you see him bounding off 10-12 feet at a jump into the logjam and cypress knees behind him.

 The absolute best time to gig frogs was dark nights in the summer when the water was very low and the sloughs had drained significantly. The dark night meant your light was more effective at holding the frog in place. The low water meant the frogs would often migrate to the river and at the mouth of the slough you might find several in close proximity.

 We did not have many gators in N. Fla when I was a kid so it was rare to see but I remember coming up on one near dry slough and seeing a pair of bright red eyes that looked to be 3" in diameter and a foot apart. I was in a 12' fiberglass boat and pointed it right at the gator and ran straight to him till he submerged and headed into deeper water scrubbing the bottom of my boat in the process and it seemed his head and tail stuck out on both ends. That certainly was not the smartest thing I ever did not both the gator and I survived the encounter.

BTW Ted, did you try bats for bait after that encounter? Sounds to me like you may have hit on a new lunker bait.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Did you know a mature male bullfrog will have a bright yellow chin? A mature female will often have a black and white spotted belly. Younger frogs may not have either of these traits. The male makes the distinctive and very loud ground shaking "Wronk" sound to attract the female during the summer mating season and the female goes to the male much like a turkey gobbler calling to the hen. The difference being a hen turkey will sometime answer back.

[petefrom bearswamp]

More grouse stuff.
I was once "attacked" by a momma grouse with chicks while atv riding on a gravel rd.
She puffed her neck feathers (ruff)  and ran right at me stopping about 3 feet away.
Also while xc skiing a good number of years ago I had one explode out of the snow between my legs while I was coasting down a hill.
Im glad it wasnt a very steep hill.
I have gigged frogs here in NY when I was a kid, but a fellow who worked for me took me out one night in Maryland.
I swear the first one I saw was the size of a house cat. Nothing that big here in NY

[Ljohnsaw]

A woman I used to work with was into horses and had a couple acres with a small pond in one corner.  Her husband was into hunting and fishing.  I guess he brought back some catfish and one was still pretty lively so they put it in the pond.  So she would go out nearly every day with some bread or crackers and feed the catfish - who got pretty big.  One spring, a Mallard pair set up a nest and hatched some eggs.  One day she was out there and the ducklings went for their first paddle.  She watched in horror as several disappeared when a gaping mouth swallowed them up.  They had catfish for dinner soon afterwards! :D

[WV Sawmiller]

  That tale reminded me of one of Mr. Tom Cadenhead's tales. Hopefully the link below will take you right too it but if not it was titled A Catfish Story. (looks like the link did not work but Mr. Tom seems to have posted the first Thread in the sawmills and Milling and if you open it you can got to his memorial website and look under his Allegories for the catfish story. I will always regret I never got to meet Mr. Tom but he had already passed long before I got a mill or found this forum.)

Tomssaw.com Error,

[WV Sawmiller]

Pete,

  I used to tell my buddies if the frog was not big enough to make Frog Head Cheese (Souse) I would just pass on him and let him grow some more.

  I did save the front legs and backs as well as the back legs. If he was not big enough to use the whole frog I did let him go.

  I don't know how many of you ever skinned or cut up a frog. They are pretty easy to process. First cut through the skin on the back right below his head. Grab the skin with a pair of fishermans's pincers or pliers like you would use to skin a catfish. Hold the frogs head and pull and the skin pulls off very readily. Cut off the "hands", cut off the feet at the "ankles" then put 2 fingers in the chest and pull the breast plate with both front legs attached. Next cut the back legs off at the hip joints. Next cut the side meat and guts off the backbone. When finished you have the front leg "assembly", the back and the two separate back legs.

  Be sure to get rid of the hides. head and guts quickly as since it is usually warm weather they will get fly blown and raise a patch of maggots while you watch if not. Bury or toss them back in the lake for the turtles and fish to eat. Never try to grind them in the food disposal - don't ask me how I know this but I assure you it will not make your wife happy some at all not any!

[Texas Ranger]

Back in the day we had friends that we would baby sit their house when they were gone for a period of time.  An idea of the nature of the house, it had a plexiglass roof, built in the round, with a two story atrium, built over a pond.  Pond was stocked with catfish.  There was a bell mounted on a post in the yard beside the pond.  They would ring the bell, catfish would show up and be fed.  Being fond of catfish, a cane pole with a dried shrimp on the hook tossed in with the feed, and we had supper.  Not fair, probably, for the fish, but paid for the baby sitting. 8)

[WV Sawmiller]

TR,

 Years ago I saw an article where some fish farm was raising Sea Bream which was a very desirable and pricy fish. They would ring a bell every time they fed the fish. They did this for many months till the fish reached a certain size then they put the fish in a cage in the ocean and did the same thing for a few more days or weeks then they opened the cages and released the fish but every day at a certain time they rang the bell and fed the fish a token amount but basically the fish were foraging on their own and putting on weight. Finally at the desired time they rang the bell and when the fish entered the enclosure they closed the gates and harvested the fish for the market. They recovered an amazing percentage (Something like 95% IIRC) of the fish.

 When I was a small boy I was listening to my grandfather telling about when he was a kid and they raised hogs in and around the Steinhatchee River in central Fla and he said he would get on his horse, load a 100 lb bag of shelled corn and go off to feed the hogs which were free ranging for miles around on their hog claim. He said he would ride down a different trail each day dropping a small trail of corn and he said he'd look back and the road would be full of hogs - dozens if not hundreds at times. I asked him how he ever figured to feed that many hogs with that relatively small amount of corn and he said there was no way that many hogs would survive on the feed he gave them. He said feeding them like that was just to gentle them down a little and make them easier to trap in the Fall when they would capture and butcher or sell the excess. The hogs foraged for their own food but the corn was just a treat to make them easier to catch later. I guess that was the same idea with  the fish farm's Sea Bream.

[Ianab]

Hogs are SMART, and even fish are smarter than a lot of people give them credit for. If you have ever kept Oscar cichlids in an  aquarium, they get to recognise you, and their food jar. They act more like a puppy than a fish. 

We called in at a local wildlife reserve earlier in the year. They specialise in the rarer native birds with a predator free fenced forest and captive breeding programs. But one if the "side shows" is the "tuna" (native eels). These are "wild" and just happen to live in the stream that flows though the reserve. 

We walked past the stream, and not much was happening.. Came back  1/2 an hour later, and the eels knew it was close to feeding time.  



 

Once some leftovers from the kiwi / falcons / owls lunch showed up, the water was boiling. 



 

The volunteer feeders had a safety briefing, DO NOT FALL OVER. No children or old folks allowed in the water. 

We have the same fish living in the little stream in the back garden, but that's the most I've ever seen in one place. 

The "Did you know" part?
The adult eels swim out to sea and breed somewhere near Tahiti (1,000+ miles away). The elvers then drift back on the currents and swim up the rivers to live and grow until they are big enough to repeat the cycle. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   Did you know that, like the electric eels in South America, there is an electric ray that lives in the Red Sea? There may be others around the world. The Red Sea electric ray has a pair of electrodes on his nose area that he uses for defense and to stun his prey. They generate a very impressive jolt to the uninitiated.

I first found out about them on a Christmas Eve night dive while working in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. I went diving in the Red Sea with a young man who was visiting his mom and dad for the holiday. His dad was a friend/co-worker of mine. During the dive on our return heading back to the entry point my light died so I was following along behind and we were passing over a sandy bottomed area at about 25' deep. Suddenly my partner stopped and shined his light in my face and I stopped to see what he wanted. Suddenly I saw a flat bodied fish about 12-14 inches long hovering right in front of me. I guess it had been hiding in the sand and we were diving close enough to the bottom such that we disturbed it and it it was hovering about 3' above the bottom when we spotted him. It did not have stinger and I assumed it was a baby ray shark. I put my right hand directly in front of him to stop him from swimming away and my left hand behind to stop him from backing up. This lasted several seconds with  the fish easing forward and backward a few inches at at a time till I put my right hand, the one with a hole in the index finger of my rubber dive glove, too close to his nose and he lit me up like a Christmas tree! My mind entered another universe and I lost all feeling in my joints for several seconds and felt like that cartoon where the guy has grabbed a live wire and his hair is all frizzed out. It was hard to see because of the sand we had stirred up but mostly from the bubbles from my partner laughing at me under water. If Santa was anywhere overhead I bet he saw the glow in the water like that Geico commercial "Houston are you seeing this?". Somewhere in my confusion the electric ray exited the area and I confess I did not see or look for him any more!

Oh well, the results passed quicker than when I tried to lip-lock a large porcupine puffer fish. I had a blue thumb for weeks and lost the nail in that encounter. Note to self: Never attempt to lip-lock any fish that eats coral for a living.
scuba-smiley

[WV Sawmiller]

   Did you know know the Florida gopher tortoise digs a burrow about 20-25 deep where he lives. Their northern range is largely determined by temperature as being true southerners they don't do well in the cold. They also need soft sandy soil without rocks for easy digging but with enough clay to hold the soil together and prevent collapsing of the roof.

   These burrows are often shared by rattlesnakes, armadillos and rabbits. The gopher is a vegetarian and a harmless critter that makes a great pet for kids. Well, where it is legal to keep one they do as they are highly protected in Florida now and it is illegal to possess one there. They live pretty much everywhere in the Fla but are also found in south Ga and southern Ala. They may even be in Mississippi but I am not sure they ever crossed the Mississippi River into Louisiana. In Florida they now are a nemesis to construction projects because if one is found on the building site all construction is halted until after the breeding season and the tortoise can be/has been relocated.

   Gophers are easy to catch in a pit trap made from a 5 gallon bucket or larger container. Just dig a hole directly in front of the burrow deep enough the can is level with the top of the ground, put a piece of brown paper or thin cardboard over the top of the can and the next time the gopher tries to enter or exit he falls in and is caught.

  Be careful when working around a gopher hole! You can readily tell an active burrow by the fresh sandy dirt at the front and you can see the slide marks. Also leaves and spiderwebs in front of the burrow indicates inactivity. I went to pit a large gopher behind my house on USMC base Albany Ga while picking blackberries with my 6 y/o son and used a rusted out 30 gallon garbage can I found in a nearby garbage dump. I dug the pit, covered it with paper and explained to my son what we were doing. The next day while at work I called my wife to see if she had checked to see if we caught the gopher and assured her our son could show her the place. When I called and asked she said "No, there is a rattlesnake there and I'm not going back!" She went out with our son and 4 y/o daughter. Sean rushed up to the pit and suddenly there was a loud buzzing of an angry rattlesnake in the area. She yelled at Sean to stop and scared him so much he and Sharon were both crying but they safely cleared the area. Evidently the snake had fallen in my pit. When I came home I went back with a hoe to kill and recover the snake but it had gotten out but the gopher was in the pit so I recovered him, filled in the pit and stayed away from the area.

   In Opp Ala just across the Fla panhandle line they used to have an annual rattlesnake rodeo to see who could catch the most and biggest rattlesnakes. The hunters would find a gopher hole and run a garden hose down the hole and listen to it like a stethoscope. If the gopher was home they could hear him blowing. If a snake they could hear his rattles and scales clicking and they would pour a small amount of gasoline in the hose and blow the fumes into the hole and the snake would quickly come out. Some people hooked the exhaust of their vehicle to the hose and the CO2 would chase the snake out. Others used to cut a plug out of an orange, squeeze the juice out, pour in a little gas and roll it down the hole. In most cases gassing gopher holes is now illegal as too many innocent gophers were killed during the process.

   Dad said the gophers in central Fla where he grew up were nearly wiped out during the depression as they are good to eat and slow to raise.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Did you know that there are still many parts of Africa where the people still believe in Magic and witchcraft?

   On my last trip to Cameroon in February 2008 we were on a long stretch of road between villages and our guide, a college educated travel guide, told us that road was bad for truck jackings as it was a major ground transportation route between much of the country. I asked her why the Gendarmes did not set up a sting operation with a box truck or such full of armed gendarmes then when the bandits stopped the truck jump out and capture or kill the bandits. The guide said "Oh no, that won't work because they take local medicines they eat or rub on their skin and it makes them invisible." While she was college educated she still believed people could make themselves invisible.

 Over next to the Nigerian border while trekking in and camping with the Koume (Koo Mah) people who were first discovered/contacted by outsiders around 1986 I spotted a flat rock propped up by another smaller rock and asked my local guide if that was a deadfall trap for small animals or birds. My guide told us "No, it is a spirit trap. If anyone is coming to this village ahead with intentions to do harm to anyone in the village and they pass here the stone will fall and capture their spirit and they will die. The first time that happens they can buy their way out by buying a cow or steer and having a feast for the village but if they try a second time they will just die and there is no way out." My wife asked "What if they just walk around it?" The guide explained it was like a long line and even someone flying over in an airplane with harmful intent would lose their spirit and die.

  In Ethiopia while visiting along the Maga Valley region I saw some baskets hung in the trees as bee hives which was common in many areas I had visited in Africa. Baskets made of palm fronds or wood are hung in likely spots and when the bees swarm they find them and settle into them and the villagers collect the honey and brood to eat at a certain time of the year. I asked my guide what was to stop someone from stealing another persons beehives and he said "Oh no. They go to the local witch doctor and he puts a curse on the hives if anyone steals them a Mamba will crawl into his hut at night and kill him and his family and anyone else who ate the honey." (I like that idea - I wonder if I can hire a WD to hex my tools?)

 Our South African guide on a trip there told us many Africans believe evil spirits are little men who hide in the corners and jump up on the beds at night to cause harm to the occupants. That is why they make their huts round (No Corners) and their beds are made high off the ground. (I always wondered if those Mambas and spiders and such might not be part of the reason for the tall beds.)

[WV Sawmiller]

   Since it is New Year's Day and I want all my FF family and friends to have the best possible start on 2021, did you know that traditionally if you ate Black-eyed peas and hog jowls on New Year's Day you were supposed to have a better year ahead. Somewhere along the line the tradition added some greenery to the meal which was supposed to indicate more wealth in the year ahead. In the South the greenery was typically collards or possibly turnip or mustard greens. In the North I understand the greenery was typically cabbage. (I suspect these were the green items still in season in those respective regions at this time of year.)

  My dad told me his version of the BE peas and Hog jowls came from growing up in the Depression era. Back then people were dirt poor and most had no refrigeration. BE Peas were one of the few foods people could grow, whip out the dry peas, and save them without refrigeration. The hog jowl used to season the peas was about the cheapest cut of meat on the pig. He said with all that in mind if you were down to eating BE peas and hog jowls on New Years Day you had to have a better year ahead because it could not get much worse as you were already just one step away from starving. :D

   Happy New year and enjoy those BE Peas and hog jowls. digin1

[SawyerTed]

Well we didn't have black eyed peas in the pantry but did have white beans.  So today we had white beans and ham hock, turnip greens, macaroni and cheese and Emily's awesome cornbread (it might be one of the reasons I married her). We had a whole ham on Sunday for lunch o the ham hock was leftover.  The rest Emily made from scratch.  

The traditional meal, I believe, was made up just as you say to help bunt the feelings of poverty and because those foods were more available in the dead of winter.

[WV Sawmiller]

Ted,
 
   We had BE peas with pork loin cut up in it for seasoning and a couple strips of bacon. We had rice, cole slaw and cornbread with it. When we finished my wife asked "Why don't we eat that more often?" We have enough leftovers I will be eating a couple more meals off it I suspect. It was simply good.

   I don't know what kind of luck you generate from eating white beans but I wish you luck. 

   We had dinner alone Christmas and Becky cooked a ham and I think there is one chunk left about the size of a tangerine or small orange. I'm hoping Becky dices it up and makes another ham and cheese omelet with a batch of yellow grits out of it.

[Southside]

Having some black eyed peas, green beans, rice, and rainbow trout right now.  We grow the peas - actually for the cows in the summer - known as cow peas of all things - then just keep some back for us, and the trout was compliments of @Poquo - it was very good!!   

[WV Sawmiller]

   Did you know that when a female hippo gives birth to a bull calf she leaves the pod to raise him alone for the first 8-12 months because the bull hippos in the pod will often kill a bull calf. If she gives birth to a female she will typically return to the pod with the baby because it is not at risk like a male would be.

   We were touring southern Africa and stopped for a couple of nights in the Okavango Delta in Botswana and I was fishing for baby tiger fish with ultra lite tackle near a small papyrus island at sunset. It was a magical time with no wind and glassy calm water and the sun setting on one side of the boat and a full moon rising on the opposite. My wife was like a swivel rotating from one direction to the other trying to get pictures of both. I was pitching a small jig spinner like a Beetle Spin and 6-8 inch tiger fish were attacking it nearly every cast (although I was not landing many) when suddenly a cow hippo with a newborn calf, we assume was a baby bull, drifted down the river to our fishing spot. My guide quickly pulled anchor and cleared the area as he said a cow hippo with a calf was very likely to attack us. We tried a couple more fishing spots but I never got another strike.

   I remember we got up the next morning and found fresh hippo tracks about 10' in front of our tent. They were not there that night when we went to bed the night before.

[Texas Ranger]

Did you know - you can levitate when you hear a rattle but not see the snake?  Olympic jumps.

[WV Sawmiller]

@Texas Ranger ,

  I can believe that! That reminds me of the old picture of the new Olympic record for the standing broad jump showing a young lady on a nude beach in the south of France bending over on the beach to adjust her towel or blanket and a cold nosed hound dog walked up and sniffed where cold nosed hound dogs are subject to sniff but I guess this is not the appropriate place for that photo.

  I have been watching the History Channel on Thursday nights with the Swamp People crew from Louisiana down in the Everglades catching pythons. Chase or Troy Landry will be walking through the swamp and suddenly yell "Snake, Snake" and run grab the snake by the tail while his partners go grab the head. I am still watching to see them make a grab and pull up a tail with rattles on it. That would be my luck. Maybe we will see it on the did something dumb thread one of these days.