Per Ohio "Best Management Practices" is winching timber across a creek allowed?

[DavidDeBord]

I had a job where the loggers dragged across a dried up stream with rock bottom.  The Fish Commission wrote them up, thanks to a neighbor complaint.  This "drained" into the local water company, and there was no increase in turbidity. 

Another place to check on specs is with the Soil Conservation Service.  They might have info on stream side disturbance.  With the flooding that you're describing, you will have to do something with the slash.

It doesn't sound like there are too many trees.  You might have more headaches than what its worth, even if its a high cash value.  If its really high, get a helicopter.

Greetings Ron,

I thought that I had posted it, but if I am remembering correctly there's 24 to 30 Veneer Grade Walnut Trees. When I asked him for a "Gross Value" before the Auction, of the trees, he told me "30-50,00 dollars".

"Helicopter" ,.... !  The way this is going, I'd have to go through the Pentagon, & NASA, only to find that the "chopper" has been sent to Ukraine.

[Texas Ranger]

Gross value $30 - %50? For what, sq foot, pound or the log?  I question the 50-50.

[Ron Scott]

See the State of Ohio's BMP's Section VI for Stream Crossings. 

https://www.safohio.org/bmps/

[KEC]

So if the adjoining landowners could be convinced that damage would be minimal and it could be done when the ground is dry, maybe a forwarder could work. Maybe fiqure out a way that they get something out of the deal. Fix them up with some firewood logs, something.

[Ianab]

Seen a local job, pulling pine across a small river. They set up a flying fox from a tree on either side, and "flew" the logs across from a plantation on the other side that had really poor access.

No huge cost as the flying fox was pulled by a skidder, used some existing trees as the "towers", so it was just a rig of cables and pulleys. More expensive than just dragging through the river, but probably saved a 6 figure fine.  

[Ron Wenrich]

If the value is that high, then a helicopter isn't out of the equation.  I saw them in a larger operation where they were used in supposedly high grade timber in a rocky mountain side in PA.  The logs turned out not to be as valuable as thought.

We had a truck driver come to our yard and said he saw a $50k walnut log in a veneer yard that he delivered to.  They were German buyers, and this was years ago.  He said it was 51", but I forget the length (thinking it was 15').  What made the price was the ring spacing.

My experience as a procurement forester and a consulting forester is that you have no idea how much veneer is in a stand.  Trees that look good can come down bad.  The logger is using that as a sales pitch.  You heard $50k, and that sticks in your head. 

My suggestion would be to find a veneer buyer and deal with him directly.  If the tree has that much value, then it shouldn't be that hard.  They will take the necessary precautions to remove the tree and do it by the book. 

[dougtrr2]

How large a crane would it take to reach across the creek?  Stage the logs on one side.  Have the truck on the other.  The crane picks them up and puts them on the truck.  Sounds easy when you say it fast. 

Doug in SW IA

[DavidDeBord]

So if the adjoining landowners could be convinced that damage would be minimal and it could be done when the ground is dry, maybe a forwarder could work. Maybe fiqure out a way that they get something out of the deal. Fix them up with some firewood logs, something.

I understand what You are saying KEC, but,..... You'd have to know our "Neighbors". The only communication that they offer is when they "Want Something", &/or when I'm telling them to shut down the Wild Parties at 3A.M on a work day.

In the past, I helped them out with a major electrical problem, & later a bad heating problem, & did not charge them, "Cuz' we was neighbors", but when we had a major snow fall, they had to be paid to clear our driveway of snow, with their tractor.

[DavidDeBord]

How large a crane would it take to reach across the creek?  Stage the logs on one side.  Have the truck on the other.  The crane picks them up and puts them on the truck.  Sounds easy when you say it fast.

Doug in SW IA

From what I've learned, "Hiring/Renting a crane, plus placing crane matting down,... The profits would quickly disappear.

[DavidDeBord]

If the value is that high, then a helicopter isn't out of the equation.  I saw them in a larger operation where they were used in supposedly high grade timber in a rocky mountain side in PA.  The logs turned out not to be as valuable as thought.

We had a truck driver come to our yard and said he saw a $50k walnut log in a veneer yard that he delivered to.  They were German buyers, and this was years ago.  He said it was 51", but I forget the length (thinking it was 15').  What made the price was the ring spacing.

My experience as a procurement forester and a consulting forester is that you have no idea how much veneer is in a stand.  Trees that look good can come down bad.  The logger is using that as a sales pitch.  You heard $50k, and that sticks in your head. 

My suggestion would be to find a veneer buyer and deal with him directly.  If the tree has that much value, then it shouldn't be that hard.  They will take the necessary precautions to remove the tree and do it by the book.

This "Logger"actually told me "30 to 50 thousand" Ron, but,......

When I told him that I had lined up four "veneer buyers", of which one he was familiar with, he objected to the other three being there. In my thinking, the more people that are at an auction, that want the product,.... The more money there is to be made.

At least that has been my experience at Auctions where HVAC & Refrigeration equipment was being auctioned off. I've seen Refrigeration walk-ins auctioned off with the condensing units/evaporators, that were still under warranty, auctioned off for "Pennies on the dollar", with a small crowd of buyers,& then saw them sell at practically new prices, when there were many buyers.

This "Logger", who I thought was an "Answer to a Prayer", ... right at the point of signing my contract, has rapidly proven not to be.

[KEC]

I get it. Makes me appreciate my neighbors.

[barbender]

 I didn't like your logger at the beginning of your post, and like him less the more you tell about him. 

 The only really feasible thing you can do here to get access to the trees across the creek is pay your neighbors for access, as you have suggested that is the language they understand. Even if you had to pay them $1000 to get access, that's way cheaper than anything you're going to do to move timber across the creek. 

 I think you were hoping that we would tell you that, "yeah we drag wood across creeks all the time, no problem", but there is no where that is allowed according to best management practices. 

[Ron Scott]

Yes, you and the logger will need to comply with the State's BMP's. Check with the State's DNR, local Conservation District Forester, or a professional consulting forester serving you area as to what the minimum stream crossing compliance will be.

Do you have a photo of the stream crossing area? How big of a project is it? 

[beenthere]

DavidDeBord

Suggest going back to your initial post and read the first reply by member Texas Ranger.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=92035.msg1416836#msg1416836

He states very well what several have also been trying to tell you.

Hope you can locate a consulting forester and get the help you need, as well as let us know how it turns out in your favor. 

You will need to spend some money to make money, as well as put trust in people.

[OntarioAl]

 The bottom line the land owner is ultimately responsible 
The logger disappears to another state and you are left holding the bag
This logger smells walk away 
My opinion
Cheers Al

[DavidDeBord]

"I think you were hoping that we would tell you that, "yeah we drag wood across creeks all the time, no problem", but there is no where that is allowed according to best management practices.

No Sir,... I was not hoping to get that answer.   

 I came here to this forum, to verify what my gut was telling me, as well as My Understanding of the 2024 Ohio BMP, .....despite this "Loggers" Outstanding credentials in Kentucky,  & his assurances that it was alright to do.

[DavidDeBord]

I got a phone call from Bob Mulligan, from ODNR, who had previously given me the Data about the bridge rental.

Since Our local State Forestry Agent is no longer in that position, Bob told me that he would come. 

From all that I told him,.... He said that he believes that there is a solution to the problem of getting across the creek.

Ya'll,... I Absolutely Appreciate all of Your help!

[KEC]

We will want to hear "The rest of the story."

[DavidDeBord]

We will want to hear "The rest of the story."

Absolutely KEC.

[beenthere]

DavidDeBord started this venture here on the FF in 2016, 

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=92035.msg2030702#msg2030702

A forester would be a good idea, given the history so far. 

[DavidDeBord]

DavidDeBord started this venture here on the FF in 2016,

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=92035.msg2030702#msg2030702

A forester would be a good idea, given the history so far. 

And My post there, at that topic,  oday, explains how it ended up here Beenthere.