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What causes bar sprockets to fail or does it happen to everyone?

Started by Northwoods3308, March 17, 2021, 10:45:03 PM

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Northwoods3308

Today at work cutting on customers wood pile I touched tip of bar into some wood and got a big kick , when I looked it had split the sprocket end of the bar open , don't think my chain was too tight bar is kept greased in grease hole . Does this just happen to everyone from age or whatever or is there a way to prevent this? On the plus side I will learn how to replace the tip on replaceable tip bar wish me luck thank you in advance for any replies!

donbj

What does this have to do with oil? :D
Anyway how old is that tip?
I may be skinny but I'm a Husky guy

Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100CD, Husky 185CD

DHansen


weimedog

Quote from: Northwoods3308 on March 17, 2021, 10:45:03 PM
Today at work cutting on customers wood pile I touched tip of bar into some wood and got a big kick , when I looked it had split the sprocket end of the bar open , don't think my chain was too tight bar is kept greased in grease hole . Does this just happen to everyone from age or whatever or is there a way to prevent this? On the plus side I will learn how to replace the tip on replaceable tip bar wish me luck thank you in advance for any replies!
Not a joke but might be a tsumara bar? ( total ) They didn't seem to have enough rivets to hold the bar "tip" bearing and sprocket together when subjected to bore cutting. Other brands like Stihl on their pro bars really have focused on the tips and allowing the bars to survive bore cutting. SO I guess what is the brand? And do you bore cut a lot? And chain tightness? How is that set? A weak tip like those four rivet tsumara and actually even a strong one, are going to blow apart when subjected to stress out side their performance envelope regardless of oil.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Northwoods3308

Oh sorry yeah it is or was a husqvarna bar. Don't really know the age of the bar bc saw I got it on was used. Although it doesn't look very worn still a lot of paint. I have done a fair amount of bore cutting with that bar though and into black locusts sooo ? Chain tightness is set to where chain is snug to bar rails but pulls down or up with two fibers fairly easily 3/8 to half inch. The same as you see on all the how tight should my chain be videos. However if this is wrong I am happy to learn. 

Northwoods3308


LabHusqvarna

Had my first tip fail just last year.  Mine was a tsumura, but was nearly ten years old (primarily cutting winter weekends only).  I flip my bar every time I change a chain or have the bar off for a good cleaning to get the sprocket spinning the other way to help extend life.  Never have greased the bar tip, just keep bar oil tank full.  Changing was super easy, much better than I expected.

Patrick NC

Quote from: Northwoods3308 on March 17, 2021, 11:42:01 PM
Oh sorry yeah it is or was a husqvarna bar. Don't really know the age of the bar bc saw I got it on was used. Although it doesn't look very worn still a lot of paint. I have done a fair amount of bore cutting with that bar though and into black locusts sooo ? Chain tightness is set to where chain is snug to bar rails but pulls down or up with two fibers fairly easily 3/8 to half inch. The same as you see on all the how tight should my chain be videos. However if this is wrong I am happy to learn.
I recently had 2 Husqvarna bars in a row that the sprocket failed. Both new bars. One after about 10 hours and the other had maybe 5 hours.  No clue what caused it. 
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

thecfarm

I have 2 saws, big one, small one, as I call them and they take a different bar. I try to keep a spare on hand. If I get a couple years out of mine, I am doing good. The bearing in the tips will go bad, or the star wheel in the tip will get crooked, maybe same thing.
I did the same thing to a bar this summer. I just went and got the spare bar and kept on sawing. I just feel it's a part that just will wear out.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Upstatewoodchuc

Quote from: Northwoods3308 on March 17, 2021, 11:42:01 PM
Oh sorry yeah it is or was a husqvarna bar. Don't really know the age of the bar bc saw I got it on was used. Although it doesn't look very worn still a lot of paint. I have done a fair amount of bore cutting with that bar though and into black locusts sooo ? Chain tightness is set to where chain is snug to bar rails but pulls down or up with two fibers fairly easily 3/8 to half inch. The same as you see on all the how tight should my chain be videos. However if this is wrong I am happy to learn.
I believe you may have answered your own question, bore cutting and black locust together is gonna be high stress on any sprocket nose. I worked at a tree service where the guys loved bore cutting, coincidentally they were blowing sprocket noses almost weekly...
Current collection: Husky 3120xp,  372xp, 365, husky 55, homelite xl12. Michigan 85 wheel loader, Ford 8n with loader and forks. Farmall super C, 1988 international dump truck, John Deere 440ICD dozer, 19ft equipment trailer, 40 ton TSC splitter, modified dieder splitter with 4 way.

Northwoods3308

Yeah good point maybe it could be from that , well got the new tip on the bar today gonna run it again tomorrow well see what happens. The guy at the dealer where I got the new tip was saying either grease the bar tip constantly or not at all. Not trying to start a grease / no grease war but what are the opinions on that? I had been greasing this one before it failed not that that proves anything

Real1shepherd

Yeah, lets not get into that again....it got ugly.

I do think though, if you're gonna grease the sprocket tip, do it at the start of each work day....or in the evening before the next work day. That's all I'm sayin' on this, this time around. ::)

Kevin


DHansen

I have some bars with the grease hole for the sprocket tip bearing and some with out the hole.  For me and what I like to do is grease the ones with the hole at each refill for fuel.  My saw dealer says either do it often or never.  His view is if only done once in a blue moon it just pushes dirt and grit into the bearing surfaces.  He is more of the never grease them attitude and I am the grease happy attitude.  YMMV so go with what you think is best.  I like keeping the nose bearing and drive bearing greased often.

Real1shepherd

All my long term wear experience is limited to .404 sprocket tips. It could be that they are more durable, hold more grease etc.....dunno. I wear them out with divots, before any internal damage shows up.

Kevin

weimedog

As has been mentioned bore cutting can be hard on bar tip, those Stihl bars seem to last. One of my customers has this habit of finding weakness in things. I had sold him a few Tsumara's a couple of years back. I was pretty enthused as the metal in the bar was pretty good stuff. He brought ALL of them back with blown out tips within a couple of weeks. Wasn't pleased with me :), they were on the CHiCom 660 test saws that also did what they do. AND the other logger who bought a clutch of them had his last a few weeks longer but they came back with the tips wasted as well. BACK to Oregon PowerMatch and Stihl bars for them! Of the "lower cost/average" ( Not Canon ) bars the Stihl's seem to hold up but for Husqvarna's have to use those goofy "adapters". 

SO I visited the "first" fellow and watched him jam that chattering bar thru the tree with shear determination and raw power. Rugged little dude....but the take away was realizing those poor tips didn't have a prayer in front of THAT guy who would probably have jammed that bar through the tree even if the chain wasn't moving. For a fire wood guy? Those Tsumara's would prolly still be fine.
Husqvarna 365sp/372xpw Blend, Jonsered 2171 51.4mm XPW build,562xp HTSS, 560 HTSS, 272XP, 61/272XP, 555, 257, 242, 238, Homelite S-XL 925, XP-1020A, Super XL (Dad's saw); Jonsered 2094, Three 920's, CS-2172, Solo 603; 3 Huztl MS660's (2 54mm and 1 56mm)

Skeans1

Quote from: Real1shepherd on March 18, 2021, 11:50:04 PM
All my long term wear experience is limited to .404 sprocket tips. It could be that they are more durable, hold more grease etc.....dunno. I wear them out with divots, before any internal damage shows up.

Kevin
Think about how we cut on the wet coast it's completely different then back boring every tree to do the stump dance of death. 

Real1shepherd

Quote from: Skeans1 on March 19, 2021, 08:56:58 AM
Quote from: Real1shepherd on March 18, 2021, 11:50:04 PM
All my long term wear experience is limited to .404 sprocket tips. It could be that they are more durable, hold more grease etc.....dunno. I wear them out with divots, before any internal damage shows up.

Kevin
Think about how we cut on the wet coast it’s completely different then back boring every tree to do the stump dance of death.
I did think about that, but I had a farm in central MO after I quit loggin' for awhile and I used the same saws in Bur Oaks, Osage Oranges and Black Walnuts....had lots of dangerous leaners and plunge cutting. However, I consent that operators must play a huge part in the life of a tip.......

Kevin

lxskllr

I blew the tip in a nearly new echo bar. Not sure what happened. It either kicked back and blew the tip, or the tip blew and it kicked back. I'm not particularly impressed with their small bars anyway. Typical laminated bar you'd get on just about anything from the hardware store. They probably all roll off the same Chinese line, and go to a different paint booth for the right colors.

Real1shepherd

Which begs the question;Are the replacement tips lasting longer than the originals?

Kevin

Gearbox

I blew a tip this winter first in many years . Came off one limb and caught the next one with the tip and the saw wide open throttle .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Firewoodjoe

Quote from: Skeans1 on March 19, 2021, 08:56:58 AM
Quote from: Real1shepherd on March 18, 2021, 11:50:04 PM
All my long term wear experience is limited to .404 sprocket tips. It could be that they are more durable, hold more grease etc.....dunno. I wear them out with divots, before any internal damage shows up.

Kevin
Think about how we cut on the wet coast it's completely different then back boring every tree to do the stump dance of death.
Stump dance of death 😂 

Mountain_d

I don't think I ever had an Oregon bar tip bearing go on me. I decided to try a few Holztforma bars to save some money and the bearings seized prematurely. Had same problem with a Huskvarna bar on a 550xp. I can't seem to find an Oregon bar to fit the 550xp? I picked up another bar brand (can't recall the name) that was supposed to fit the 550. That bar does not get enough oil on to the bar, so I am going to try another Huskvarna bar. 
Mountain 
1978 TJ 230E 3.9L Cummins 4B, Husky 372XP, Husky 61, Husky 266XP, JRed 625, Husky 265RX clearing saw,  Woodmizer LT40HD 1995, Kubota 4950DT (53hp 4WD), Wallenstein V90 Skidding Winch, John Deere 610 backhoe, 1995 Volvo White GMC WCA42T SA Dump Truck, 2004 Ford F-250SD 4WD, , Central Boiler OW

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: Mountain_d on March 27, 2021, 08:06:01 PM
I don't think I ever had an Oregon bar tip bearing go on me. I decided to try a few Holztforma bars to save some money and the bearings seized prematurely. Had same problem with a Huskvarna bar on a 550xp. I can't seem to find an Oregon bar to fit the 550xp? I picked up another bar brand (can't recall the name) that was supposed to fit the 550. That bar does not get enough oil on to the bar, so I am going to try another Huskvarna bar.
Mountain
Those Holzfarma bars are HORRIBLE. I ordered 3 just for kicks to see what they were like. I had to put between 40 and 90 minutes work on each bar before I would put it on the saw to try. The side rails are not even at all and required a lot of dressing (I wore out a file), likewise, the chain groove was not consistent and need work. After putting them on I found bad chipping behind the tip pretty quickly. Most folks blame this on bore cutting, but I did no bore cutting with that 28" bar at all, so go figure? I call them chinese junk of the highest order. None of them cut straight for very long either, rail wear I think, but I have not mailed down the cause yet because I have work to do. Bearings have held up so far, but frankly I dislike the way they cut so haven't put much time in them.
 If you have the right mount for the bar, and it does get oil, I don't think you can blame the bar for that. Check the flow path, either it flows, or it doesn't, there really isn't an in between on that. 
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

sawguy21

@Mountain_d Your 550xp should use the Oregon K095 bar. What was your problem with it?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Mountain_d

Saw guy, thanks for the Oregon bar number. I had an issue with an off brand bar not delivering enough oil to the chain. I could never find an Oregon bar for my 550. I can use your number to search again for an Oregon bar. Oil comes out when the bar is off. But with the bar on, very little getting on the chain. If I burned a full tank of gas, I would use less than 1/4 tank of chain oil. Oiler adjuster is turned all the way up. I am running an 18 inch bar. 
Mountain 
1978 TJ 230E 3.9L Cummins 4B, Husky 372XP, Husky 61, Husky 266XP, JRed 625, Husky 265RX clearing saw,  Woodmizer LT40HD 1995, Kubota 4950DT (53hp 4WD), Wallenstein V90 Skidding Winch, John Deere 610 backhoe, 1995 Volvo White GMC WCA42T SA Dump Truck, 2004 Ford F-250SD 4WD, , Central Boiler OW

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