iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Chain sharpener?

Started by Ranger8006x6, July 28, 2021, 01:28:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Old Greenhorn

Put me in the hand file group for the foreseeable future. I have been doing a lot of sharpening the last couple of years and have always gotten by OK, but this last year or so I have upgraded my self assessment to 'fairly good' and I use the Husqvarna roller guide because it fits in a pocket and keeps me consistent. Lately I have been thinking I can maybe try freehand because I rarely depend on the guide to keep me true.
 Over the decades I have tried many systems and I have yet to find one that doesn't work, as Doc said, it is just a question of how well, fast, and consistent it is, as well as how properly your chain comes out with the top plate angle, side angle, and drop. I usually do my rakers (every other sharpening or so) with a progressive raker gauge.
 This is not to say I have a leaning against any method that works for someone else. I have never used the 'all-in-one' gizmo, it just goes against my grain and I haven't had a chance to try it yet. If it works for y'all, great. Time does matter almost as much as quality.
 Doc, your idea with the sawzall is interesting but I see a few 'hitches' to overcome. First, the tool will only use about 2" of the file length over and over and a single side until you rotate it. The speed of the tool means you will have the same pressure on the return stroke as the push, also leading to early file wear because files don't cut on the pull stroke, as HK said. (When I hand file I lift off the pressure on every return stroke and rotate a tiny bit every other stroke.)
 However You did bring to mind and idea for a powered stroking system or what one should look like. In a few shops I have worked, including my own shop at one point we had a machine called a 'Die Filer' and it was always one of my favorite toys. It was designed for use by the old die makers that would use it to shape the various odd cutout in dies and punches before final grinding and sharpening. It took a little work to get proficient with, but man it was fun. You could set the table at an angle for more complex cuts, but you really had to have your head in the game to get things to come out right. It took special files that cut 'backwards', on the pull stroke (I still have a bunch of these and use them by hand when I need them). Picture a table jig saw without an overarm and you pretty much have it. I was usually the only guy in the shop that used that machine and I wish I still had one today. Anyway, the point I was working up to was that this machine would hold the file straight on the down (cut) stroke then let it flop over just a little for the return (up) stroke. This happened pretty quick and unless you were pushing too hard, in which case your work piece would lift with the file then get slammed to the table on the downstroke, many times pinching little pieces of skin or full fingers under it. This is why the young guys stayed away from it after a couple of blood blisters. :D ;D No patience, they wanted to 'hit a button'.
 So if you could make a hand held machine that would 'back off' on the return stroke and index the file a little bit, you might have something. I'm happy with what works for me now and if somebody gave me an electric sharpener I would give it a go, but I am not looking for one. If I ever found a Silvey cheap in a yard sale  :D I would grab that and switch all my chains over to square ground and be done with it. That I would trust. I might even take in outside sharpening. The local guy is getting old and tired and a lot of chains sent to him only get 3 sharpening's before they are done or they come back burned or too hard to file at all. Everybody (including me) likes him, but its getting expensive for them. (I think he's 85 or so.)

 Just find what works for you and put the time in to get good at it. Skill doesn't come cheap, you have to put in the time, lots of time.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Skeans1

I'll throw in another round filing is a cake walk, but do I do it no most of the time it's going on the grinder it's more efficient for the time I have after work. I haven't heard anyone bring up square filing and how it's not an easy thing to do and keep consistent with every tooth, having first hand experience with square being off side to side it will pull in a lovely banana shape.

 
This is a Silvey pro sharp for doing square chains even if you're doing just one I'm willing to bet it's faster to do on the grinder vs by hand.


 
The 300 dollar Tecomec Super Jolly with hydraulic vise is great for round of all sizes you can think of, this machine is mainly used on harvester 404 and 3/8's gullets of square.


Oregon 511a setup to do depth gauges 

 
This is a Depth Gauge Grinder or a HDG Silvey clone all it can do is depth gauges or gullets but when you sit down to do 10 to 15 chains per shot you want something that is accurate and fast.

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: Skeans1 on July 31, 2021, 09:50:01 AM
........ I haven't heard anyone bring up square filing and how it's not an easy thing to do and keep consistent with every tooth, having first hand experience with square being off side to side it will pull in a lovely banana shape. ........
I believe somebody mentioned square filing in the post before yours :D. Whereas it is true that is is tricky to learn and can be very frustrating when you first start, I have found that field filing square goes pretty quickly compared to round. There is no jig or guide available for square, so your hands have to be very consistent, especially side to side, but once you've 'got it', you are golden. I love the way it cuts, but I wanted to get better at round filing and have spent 2 years doing a lot of chain footage until I could get it 'right'. Maybe I will go back to square now. Still searching sales for a cheap used Silvey though. :D ;D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

John Mc

Quote from: HemlockKing on July 31, 2021, 09:11:09 AM
Quote from: doc henderson on July 31, 2021, 01:28:32 AM
as you say for the sake of discussion, how about a file adapted to a Sawzall or jig saw so the motion is powered and the grind is by round file.  seems most files cut front to back, as the small 12 v grinder rotates a stone.  I have used them all and they work.  (not the saws all yet to be designed version).
Would be hard because you'd be ruining your new sharp edge every time the saw comes back, you'd only want it touching on the forward stroke. Even though it doesn't cut on the back stroke I'd think it would still ruin the edge possibly
You are correct, HemlockKing. Back-dragging a file is a great way to ruin it.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

Quote from: Tacotodd on July 29, 2021, 01:57:24 PMYeah, I'll take my hand sharpening over machine. The cost, time involved, and taking off the bar, putting back on, and other stuff that I haven't thought of yet. It's also a good time for personal assessments like: hydration, hunger, what have I REALLY got left to do, stuff like that.


I'm with you on this one. I prefer hand sharpening. I tend to get caught up in the work of cutting, and not notice how tired/dehydrated/hungry I'm getting. I do notice right away when a chain is not cutting properly. I'll pause and hand sharpen in the woods. During that time, I'll also start to notice all those things about myself that I have been ignoring, and deal with them.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

smoked

I have become a fan of the 2 in 1 hand files.  I have learned I can keep the alignments more steady pulling to me vs. pushing away too.  Obviously pulling the file only in the correct direction ;D  As long as the chain is not killed, I feel it is faster than just removing and replacing considering grinding has to happen later.  Especially if it is on the Alaskan rig.   
Hobby woodworker/wood burner
If I screw something up, it is free heat next winter:-)

welderskelter

You can get a sharpener (vevor) on the internet for around 170 not much when you can make about 8 bucks every 10 minutes.

JoshNZ

I haven't read all the posts here but thought I'd add - I've got a cheap Chinese sharpener I'm sure the same as what you get at HF, I can get out of the box sharp with it every time. I'm sure it's not as nice to use as an Oregon or Stihl but I don't know what I don't know haha.

You do have to be sensible with it, the handle/assembly has a bit of flex in it so you have to pay attention to which way you're applying force. And the chain isn't correctly referenced against the stop when changing the table to +/- 30 degrees or 35 whatever you do, so you have to adjust a little so you don't end up with short cutters on one side, but easy to solve with calipers and once you know the tool you don't bother measuring.

Just kiss each cutter a few times, should all be fresh metal and not tarnished

Dave12

I'm a big fan of the stihl 2 in 1. I tried hand filing but just couldn't get the hang of it. I'm sure a chain can be sharper with proper hand filing or bench grinder but the extra second or so in cut time isn't going to make a difference in what I do. 
Just a small time firewood cutter using a Stihl MS500i, MS400c and MS462c

5shot

Total newb here, but I noticed nobody mentioned the Granberg File N Joint.  Dead simple for round filing, and it can be adapted for square filing (with a 3 corner).  The jig doesn't fit in your pocket, but it isn't huge.

John Mc

Quote from: Dave12 on August 16, 2021, 11:46:18 AM
I'm a big fan of the stihl 2 in 1. I tried hand filing but just couldn't get the hang of it. I'm sure a chain can be sharper with proper hand filing or bench grinder but the extra second or so in cut time isn't going to make a difference in what I do.
In my book, the 2-in-1 and any other guides ARE hand filing - you are not using a grinder. I call filing with just a bare round file with no guide "free-hand filing" (and it's just one method of hand filing). I don't think that term is widely used - it's just how I think of it. 
In my life I've my dozens of people who THINK they get great results freehand filing. I've met three who actually DO get great results. 
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Tacotodd

My "free-hand filing" gives me better results than any brand new chain that I have run across, and I just round file. I firmly believe that part of the trick is to file your depth gauges with a progressive guide. That's the only guide that I use, and then a really light tickle with the file after the depth gauge tool. After all, it does rest on the cutting edge of the tooth that it's using.
Trying harder everyday.

barbender

JoshNZ, I've seen Chinese knock offs of the Oregon/Tecomec grinders. They are supposed to do a reasonable job, from what I hear. The Harbor Frieght machine I had was all plastic, used a tiny wheel, and flexed so much that any consistent result was impossible.
Too many irons in the fire

JoshNZ

The one I got is all cast aluminium, only plastic is guards and electronics cover. It has a bit of flex but it's ok, if you're mindful of it.

I got another one recently on sale for $79nz about ~55usd right now. Pinched the motor off and tossed in the bin as it was cheaper than sourcing a motor in NZ. As far as I could tell it is identical to the one I'm using.

Real1shepherd

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on July 31, 2021, 09:35:34 AMI believe somebody mentioned square filing in the post before yours . Whereas it is true that is is tricky to learn and can be very frustrating when you first start, I have found that field filing square goes pretty quickly compared to round. There is no jig or guide available for square, so your hands have to be very consistent, especially side to side, but once you've 'got it', you are golden. I love the way it cuts, but I wanted to get better at round filing and have spent 2 years doing a lot of chain footage until I could get it 'right'. Maybe I will go back to square now. Still searching sales for a cheap used Silvey though.
Actually, they do make a jig for square filing. I could also make one out of a Granberg jig sharpener with the help of a hobby machinist. You would only need to make a few small pieces. Here is the ATOP:

Kevin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yltKFKJQQMc

Real1shepherd

I'm reluctant to get into this again, because it never goes anywhere. Here are four pics of the original Granberg chisel chain sharpener.

I've owned mine since the 70's, but these are someone else's pics because all the original pieces are intact on his and for reference only.

In the first pic take note of the actual file holders for the Perferd file. There show those little round inserts. Mine cracked and broke. They were pot metal. Eventually the holders themselves broke...pot metal. Granberg took the jig out of production around the mid 80's. They used to show up on eBay....you can forget looking now.

Essentially, Granberg makes the hand file part and the jig itself unchanged since then. A hobby machinist could make the end pieces and all the rest would be Granberg new.

Whomever designed this jig, did so in steel and the design was so good that Granberg copied it in mostly pot metal.....that's the big caveat. Make the file holder ends out of machined steel and the jig lives on forever or you could jump into a new one by just saving the machined file holders and buying a new File n' joint from Granberg.

Turn key could be around $100 if I could get someone interested in doing the file holders.

OK the pics were all copied from --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--....someone else's. Apparently, I can't post them here as an "extension", whatever that means. There are in my download folder but won't transfer like usual to a folder here. They won't go into the Forestry Forum Gallery...again, something about an extension. 

Kevin


Old Greenhorn

Quote from: Real1shepherd on August 17, 2021, 09:40:40 AM

Actually, they do make a jig for square filing. I could also make one out of a Granberg jig sharpener with the help of a hobby machinist. You would only need to make a few small pieces. Here is the ATOP:

Kevin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yltKFKJQQMc
Apparently that has been around while now, but I had never heard of it. It took me too long to get good at doing it by hand, I don't think I would want to switch to a jig that will just slow me down and put a hole in my wallet. They sure are proud of those things!
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Real1shepherd

I think the problem stems from being webpics.....it won't allow me to post from my PC. I stuck the pics in documents, but that didn't change anything. I think I have to reformat the pics somehow to post here?

Kevin

lxskllr

If they're .webp extensions, you'd need to convert them to .jpg. You should be able to do it with a decent image editing program. I'd use gimp, but there's probably easier programs that would work too.

Real1shepherd

Quote from: lxskllr on August 17, 2021, 04:03:48 PM
If they're .webp extensions, you'd need to convert them to .jpg. You should be able to do it with a decent image editing program. I'd use gimp, but there's probably easier programs that would work too.
I'll look into it later, thanks!

Kevin

beenthere

The program "Paint" works well for that.. resize and save to .jpg file. 
Can add arrows, lines, text, etc. to the file before saving as well. I often do a "screen save" and paste into the "Paint" program to produce .jpg files.  As said, there are others that also work well. 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

fluidpowerpro

Ive got one of those cheap ones from Harbor Freight. Im no expert at sharpening chains so Im sure what Im doing to them is not ideal. All I can say is that after I sharpen them they sure cut better! I think they get about $40 for it so its worth a try.
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full of it falls off the top shelf and hits your head!

Real1shepherd

OK, was able to find a 'converter' so I can post these pics as promised.


 

 

 

 

Thank You Sponsors!