What would you do if it was your dog?

[Fredh]

I don't know if this fits on the General Board, but here goes......

My field springer, Buffett (as in Jimmy Buffett!), 7 years old,  came up lame in one of his hind legs last week after after a trek through the bush.  He's in good shape and would make a great outfielder for any ball team. The vet's diagnosis is a torn knee ligament which can only be repaired with surgery, 80% success rate, and 2 months of 'no running or jumping' recovery period.

Now, any of you that have springer spaniels will know that to keep him from 'running and jumping' for more that 2 hours, let alone 2 months, is almost impossible, and certainly no fun for the dog.

So I'm torn (pardon the pun!).  Is it better to put the dog through surgery and 2 months of agony or let him run lame and manage any pain through meds?

Anybody have any experience with torn knee ligaments in the dog?

[Woodwalker]

Can't speak for the dog, but my knee hurt like......., well pretty bad. I got it worked on.

[ohsoloco]

My 5 year old lab mix has been having a problem with her left rear leg since last spring  :(  The vet was thinking it was soft tissue damage in a couple of her toes, but I haven't gotten a real definitive answer.  Had her hips x-rayed and tested for lyme disease (I have her vaccinated but you never know).

She favors her one leg so much that her right leg is about 50% bigger, and very muscular compared to the left one.  Thing is, she won't think twice (or at all for that matter  ;) ) about running, jumping, etc.  Breaks my heart to see her like that, but she gets along okay.  Tried an aspirin but it made her sick, so I've been giving her two baby aspirin on a full stomach.  Vet doesn't want to put her on anti-inflammatory pills cuz she'll think she's better, and end up doing more damage.  

This probably doesn't help much, but my pup is doing alright ....not sure about when she gets older though  :-\

[logwalker]

I had a Springer female for 14 years so I know your pain on this one. How about a second opinion? Joe

[scsmith42]

Fred, according to my wife (she's a Vet), she would recommend the surgery.  At 7 years, your dog should still have a lot of quality of life in front of it.  We actually had this same surgery performed on one of our dogs knees (cruciate ligament); when the second one went we opted not to do it because he was so arthritic in his other joints. 

If you don't do the surgery, anticipate severe arthritis in the joint within a few years (which you may see anyway).

Also, whether you do the surgery or not, expect the same ligament to go out on the other knee in about a year.

Regarding recovery, she recommended that you invest in a large crate, and keep your dog crated as much as possible during recovery.

Regards,

Scott

[WDH]

My bloodhound had a torn knee ligament.  After the surgery, she got to the point that she could use her leg about 80%.  Unfortunately, she only lasted about 9 months before she went down permanently.  She was 10 years old which is old for a bloodhound.  I don't regret having the surgery because she was with me for 9 more months.

[IMERC]

surgery...
these guys are family...

[SwampDonkey]

Don't use aspirin on your dogs guys, that's like poison to a dog. If it were me, and I would feel just as attached to a dog as anyone in here, I would put the dog down if I see it really struggling.  :-\

[Larry]

We had a Doberman that underwent the operation.  Had to keep him in a cage for 6 weeks all the time.  The only time he got out was to the potty...and I had to carry him down the steps for the first couple of weeks.  The operation was a success and Max lived a long quality life afterwards.

The operation was expensive and if I had not been retired would not have been possible.  The pain for Max was too severe without the operation and he would have had to be put down.

[moosehunter]

I have a Springer also. He's my forth Springer not counting the puppies we had and sold. I've always said if he needs major surgery I'd put him down, but the truth is I'd probubly sell my truck and walk to work if I had to ;)

mh

[metalspinner]

We have a lab mix - Maddi  - that's been diagnosed with the same torn ligament.  She has been hobbling around here waiting for us to be able to afford the surgery.  She is 12 years old and (no offense to anyone else with a dog) is the greatest dog in the world. ;)  Her mobility is way down, but her spirit is still high.  I think I will call the university vet hospital for a second diagnosis. They might also have a lower cost on the operation. 

To try and stem the guilt I have of not being able to take care of the injury, she gets an extra rub down or two each day. ;)

Here she is posing with a big red oak burl...

[chevytaHOE5674]

Have a spaniel that tore a knee ligament at year 3 or 4, and had the surgery. Now she is 14 and still gets around, just a little stiff with arthritis. 

I didn't even think twice about the surgery, the dogs are like kids to me.

[Fredh]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Our dogs are absolutely like family, and generally I find they perform a lot better than some family members!  That's why we always want to do the right thing for the dog, not for us.

I'll let you know what I decide and how it turns out.  If I can figure out how to insert a picture, I'll send one.

[IMERC]

NOTICE TO PEOPLE THAT VISIT MY HOME....
1. The dog lives here you don't.
2. If you don't want dog hair on your clothes, stay off the furniture.
3. Yes he has some disgusting habits and so do you. What is your point?
4. OF COURSE HE SMELLS like a dog. What is your point?
5. It's his nature to sniff your crotch. Please feel free to sniff his.
6. I like him a lot better than I like most people.
7. To you he is a dog. To me he is my adopted son, who is short, hairy, walks on all fours, doesn't speak clearly and I do not have a problem with any of these things.
8. Dogs are better than kids:
They eat less.
Don't ask for money all of the time.
Easier to train, hence mind better.
Usually comes when called.
Never drive the truck or car.
Don't hang out with drug-using friends.
Don't worry about having the latest fashions.
Don't wear my clothes.
Don't need a gazzillion dollars for college.
9. Same applies to the cat, except it will ignore you... until you are asleep.

[jim king]

IMERC

It could not be said better.

[jim king]

It he were my dog I would put him in a cast for six weeks.  If it doesnt work he will have a limp or walk on three legs.  Over many years here in the Amazon we have had a few three legged dogs and many with broken faces , legs, teeth hanging out etc..  One thing they generally have in common is they never come with hair but a good supply of worms and fleas.

We have about 65 street dogs now in the factories and a full time cook and groomer for them.  Sounds bad but for a few kilos of chicken parts and rice and flavoring and a groomer all for $25 a day we have NO theft.  They pay for themselves 10 times over as if that was part of the deal.  My wife simply could not live without them.

What would your wife do with you if you had a stiff leg or worse one that didnt work.  Help the poor dog.  The photos are of a couple of before and afters.

[caz]

Our Family has a 5 yr old gray hound,lab border collie mix.

She has had both knees done and is now about 80% yes its expensive but she is family and there is no way I could stand to see her in so much pain.

Could I afford it no did I pay it yes (plastic) I'll work it off just like eveything else.

We are lucky to have a local vet who specializes in this very thing.

Do it now, you won't regret it .                   good luck

[RynSmith]

Metalspinner - and anyone else near a university with a vet school - definitely check with them.  My lab got steel plates for hips from MSU many years ago and it cost half as much as it would've from a private vet.  They use it as a teaching example and then the students do the follow up care until the dog is ready to come home.  I could tell the students treated her really well and actually cared about the outcome.

[WDH]

When Scarlet had her surgery, it was $800 at the Vets using the standard procedure.  Or, I could have taken her to Auburn University or UGA where they groove a slot in the leg bone for the ligament.  That procedure was $2500.  I opted for the standard procedure because of her age and the fact that her hips were in poor shape. 

[Reddog]

Don't use aspirin on your dogs guys, that's like poison to a dog.

Swamp, You want to tell my Vet he is wrong for prescribing aspirin?

I beg to differ, it is safe for dogs. You just need to have the right dosing. It can cause some of the same problems in dogs as it does in humans, stomach issues. Do a google search on aspirin for dogs, Much good advice from Vets.

Fredh, From what I have seen the surgery is worth it. Most dogs seem to respond well to it.
scsmith42 covered it well.

[cheyenne]

Do the surgery, put a cast on it & keep him in a crate for rehab. It's the right thing to do.....Cheyenne

[SwampDonkey]

I've been told by vets a number of times not the feed aspirin to dogs, that's all I know on it. That's been a few years ago, before internet. I haven't had a dog for over 20 years.

[Corley5]

  Our Samantha dog a now 8 year old Lab/Springer mix  ???/ pound puppy  ;D had the ligament surgery just about a year ago.  Cost a grand but it was worth it.  She limped and was lame for a few months but seldom shows any signs of the incident now.  Our vet has recommended aspirin for our dogs too.  Acetaminophen however is poisonous to dogs. 

[Jeff]

Our old Syney dog, who we had to finally put down in his 18th year, started having some problems getting around when he was about 12. We gave him a buffered aspirin almost everyday for the rest of his life. Over 6 years.  We could always tell when we forgot the aspirin for a time, as he would start having trouble getting around again. The aspirin is what gave him quality of live. 

[thecfarm]

Jim,what king of dog is in the bottom Picture?





Here's my golden retriever and Scottish terrier.Your dog looks bigger.Mine is only 25 pounds.

[jim king]

thecfarm: 
I have no idea what the dog was.  As you see in the second from the bottom photo when my wife brought him home he was a hairless.  Most are impossible to tell the breed when she brings them home and are of mixed breeds but we do end up with many pure breds also.

The dog you are asking about died of cancer .  That is the biggest killer of dogs here.
We have also had three with diabetes and every morning they got their insulin under the skin on the back of the neck.

We also have a couple hundred exotic animals that the vets or others drop off.  It is a lot of work but my wife could not live without them.





Jim

[vt k-9]

hi
Just a thought as I am a new member.But breed german shepherds. We asked our girl what do you want. To be put to sleep or surgery? She said surgery of coarse. So we  had surgery on my high drive search and rescue dog. She layed low for 6 week. Recoverd with no problems. Today can still search for hours.We used Arnica a homapathic remedy and its tylinol thats is poison not asprin. Oh ya (Mishia )  our girl says thank you.
Vt k-9

[Jeff]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum vt k-9. 

[Wudman]

We have a beagle (actually two that came from the pound).  My son saw them in the local pound when he was about 12 or 13 years old and just had to have them (We live close to the pound and he would ride his motor bike down to look).  I was against it (I knew it would come down to me to take care of them), but my wife conceded.  One of them had heart worms and was treated for such when we got them.  She survived.  A few years back, she was hit by a car and broke her pelvis and tore all of the ligaments in her knee.

If I was in the same shape, I hope somebody would put me back together.  The vet said her pelvis would heal okay on its own, but the knee required surgery.  Now, you would never know that anything ever happened to her.  She gets along fine.  I can always depend on a greeting when I come home. 

We also have an indoor dog (a chihuahua).  Last Saturday morning, I got up and fixed some breakfast.  When he didn't come running, I went looking for him.  He usually sleeps in our bed, but I didn't see him when I got up.  I checked our daughter's room but he was not there either.  I found him in his kennel.  He was in bad shape with severe abdominal pain and he had been throwing up.  I looked the house over for anything that he could have chewed or injested.  I carried him to the vet.  The vet examined him and asked if he had eaten any fat recently.  My wife said she had given him a handful of fat off a ham two days prior.  He diagnosed pancreatitis -- basically, his pancreas had started to digest itself.  He gave him a bunch of fluid, antibiotics, and an anti nausea medicine.  He said it was potentially fatal, and that he should not be given anything by mouth for 48 hours.  We could start introducing water after that time and small quantities of white rice or rice based food after that.  The little dog laid around and really did not move for 24 hours or so.  After that, he started to improve a little and in about 4 days he was returning to normal.  Today, he is as frisky and playful as ever. 

Bottom line.....don't feed your indoor dogs a high fat diet (especially chunks of animal fat at a time).  My vet says it is a fairly common affliction of indoor animals.  I was not aware of it.  I guess we were lucky this time.

Wudman   

[vt k-9]

Thanks for the welcome. I enjoy the forum and all the great info
vt k-9,

[ohsoloco]

Yep, the vet recommends aspirin for the pooch.  As said, it's acetaminophen (Tylenol) shouldn't be given to pets.  Heck, it's no good on the human liver for that matter. 

I've been to two vets and nobody can say for sure what Maya's problem is.  I'd have the surgery in a heartbeat if someone said that would fix her...

[AJinNZ]

Do the surgery.

Dogs are tough and heal fast, but even if they dont show it.....to be in pain all the time? Not fair.

As for the 2 months not running around, might be tough but the payoff its worth it. Besides they get over stuff like that.

[IMERC]

As for the 2 months not running around, might be tough but the payoff its worth it. Besides they get over stuff like that.

Oreo as old as she is bounced back from her surgery.... it's clearly evident it was all to the good...

long time or has been it been a longer time??? no hear from....
how's it going dude...

[ARKANSAWYER]

 




  This is LBJ.  She is with me all the time for the last 7 years.  She is a good dog as any I have had.  She grades logs and boards as well as welcomes customers.  She lives in the house and is a great squirrel dog.
  But last time she was snake bit she did not go to the Vet.  Other then a shot once a year at the 4H shot clinic she does not go to the Vet.  When she tore a gash out of her leg I but 8 stiches in and taped up her leg.  In the past I have had dogs that got bad sick (distemper) or hurt (hit by car, broken legs in many places) and I put them down myself.  Was raised as farmer/rancher and on the farm when a animal had a name it was going to be around for a while other wise it was to be eaten or sold.  But you would not put $1,000.00 in a $200.00 cow and for sure would not put $500.00 in a free dog.  Cruel or cold blooded?  Just the way things are on the farm. 
  So LBJ, as fine as she is, is still just a dog.  For as long as the Good LORD lets her live I will enjoy and care for her.  But I will not put alot of coin in something that is likly to run out in the highway and get hit by a car.  Doubt that she lives longer then another 10 years at best but she will have a home as long as I do.  But I would not spend much money to keep her alive.  My Inlaws have a dog pushing 20 and spend several thousand dollars a year keeping her alive.  She is about blind, death and can hardly walk and has no teeth.  They give her pain pills and carry her around.  The dog's quality of life is poor but to ease their guilt they keep pouring money in to keep it alive.  Personaly would have put the dog out of pain years ago.
  Only people have souls.  Only people have awareness.  We asign our traits to our pets that they really do not possess.  Some are very smart and do learn well.  They are great compaions and servants.  But are still just dogs.
  So if you have extra coin and would have just gambled it away any how then by all means help the hound out.  If taking the dog to the Vet means you may not make next months house payment or be another year before you can by the new mill then let the dog limp or put it down.
  And for people that dump dogs out they should be put down instead of the dogs.  Man up and take responsibilty for your businesss.  (Sorry but when I see dogs like the ones Jim has it makes me DanG mad.)

[SwampDonkey]

I'm in Arky's camp and anyone I know in these parts would say the same, even though we all loved our dogs while they were with us. My last dog was murdered. And as far as the pain killers, I know the word aspirin when I'm told. Not hard of hearing. Things may have changed in over 20 years as far as what they know about dosage and such. But spouting off as if I'm deaf or something serves no purpose. End of comment.

[AJinNZ]

Imerc

"long time or has been it been a longer time??? no hear from....
how's it going dude..."

The "going" part is a long story.  ;D

I was getting a headache from being upside down looking for ya.......back the right way up now so it has helped a bit.
The emails I sent musts been fast tracked into the garbage by the gremlins. Shoulda nuked the gremlin factory when we had the chance............

[IMERC]

The emails I sent musts been fast tracked into the garbage by the gremlins. Shoulda nuked the gremlin factory when we had the chance............

AJ....
check yur personel messages...
rather not hijack here...

[Fredh]

Just an update on 'Buffett', who started this thread.

We had the surgery ($2700!!) and he is now in the third week of recovery and doing great.  Vet was impressed when he took out the staples last week.

First week after surgery was rough (more on me than the dog!),.....up during the night to stop licking the wound...stop him from trying to jump up on the bed....carrying up and down stairs....He hasn't quite figured out why he's on leash all the time cause' he's rarrin' to go chase something, but he accepts it.

I'll try and upload a photo separately because it keeps skrewing up my post.

[IMERC]

Excellent!!!

[brdmkr]

Jim,

What is causing those dogs to be hairless?  Is it mange?

[Chico]

My vet told me the same thing about aspirin Swampdonkey I had a Dobie that fell off off my truck while he was drinking  thanks to my bro and we thought give an aspirin he's stove up well about 2 days later He wasn't doing so good so we went to the vet and He gave me some meds and told me never give my dogs aspirin Must be one of them opinion things Know what I mean ;D
Chico

[IMERC]

had a Dobie that fell off off my truck while he was drinking  thanks to my bro

yur bro is a bad influence...

[Corley5]

I had my 15 year old dog at the vet today and asked the vet about her stiff hips.  He said to give her a child's aspirin once or twice a day

[okmulch]

I have got an english bulldog that is 13 and 1/2 years old, he has bad arthritis so we give him glucosamine chondrotin. It is the same thing humans take. He has been on that for several years and it seems to help him. He still limps some when he walks around but he still can jump up on "his" couch when it is time for bed.

[Chico]

Imerc your right I was working got home and my younger brother who was always afraid of the dog evidently figured he'd try being his friend Well it worked until Warlock ran out of beer and fred was in the yard with him .I got home dog was limping in the yard My brother was on the roof don't ask me I don't know the answer to that one  . Anyway we all had a nice long talk I took Warlock to AA for Dobies and we all lived happily ever after ;D
Chico

[Gary_C]

I asked my expert about aspirin for dogs and he told me it was alright to give aspirin to dogs but it was not the prefered medication for an anti inflamitory or NSAID as they are called . If you do use aspirin on a dog you should low dose them like a baby aspirin a day or every other day. The problem is higher doses will damage their livers.

[Night Raider]

To see who really loves you lock your wife and your dog in the trunk of a car and see who is happy to see you in 2 hours.