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Black or Scarlet Oak? - (SOLVED: scarlet oak)

Started by Lanier_Lurker, April 09, 2007, 04:07:25 PM

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Lanier_Lurker

I was leaning towards Scarlet Oak, but the overall shape makes me wonder if these are from a Black Oak.

They do have a nice red color.

If necessary, I will go scrape the bark and get some pictures of that as well.








Ron Wenrich

Instead of scraping the bark, take your knife and drill a hole in the bark.  When you get to the inner bark, you will have your answer.  Black oak has a yellow inner bark.  Its the only oak that does.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

WDH

The bark will answer the question.  Aside from the yellow inner bark of black oak, the black oak bark is very dark and black.  It stays this way all the way up the stem.  Scarlet oak, on the other hand, has bark with silver stripes that run vertically up the stem.  The silver stripes are very distinctive. 

I am leaning to black oak, but it could be scarlet  :).  The leaves in the pics do not have many bristles on the lobes;  scarlet usually has more numerous bristles on the lobes, so that is the reason for the lean.  Black oak sun leaves and scarlet oak leaves can look almost alike.  Both have longer than average petioles.  However, the shade leaves of black oak are large and poorly/irregularly lobed.  They look very different, and I did not see any like this in the pics you posted.  However, the leaves you posted could easily be black oak sun leaves.  As I have said several times on the Forum, you cannot rely on a single characteristic to identify trees.  It usually take several different characteristics to do the job with confidence.

The bark pattern is a solid tie-breaker.  Can you post several bark pics?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Lanier_Lurker

Ok, here are a couple of pictures of the bark.

I have quite a few northern red oaks in the same area, and of course they have very distinct silver stripes.  The stripes on this tree are not as distinct, but they are present as you can see.

These leaves certainly do not look like northern red, and they don't strongly resemble the pictures I have seen of scarlet oak leaves either.  If anything, their shape looks more like a pin oak.

I failed to mention that the leaves pictured above are quite large (9 to 10 inches in length).  That might be the result of shade.

A quick dig with the knife was inconclusive as to the color of the inner bark.  It was getting dark.  I'll try that again later.

I'll have to wait a few weeks for any new leaves.  This crazy cold spell has really stunned all of the flora in my area.  I just heard on the news today that the peach crop in north Georgia (wherever that is) has been declared a total loss.





Lanier_Lurker

I found this picture and language at "http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/FORESTRY/TREES/oak_scarlet.htm".

"Fall color is later than most Oaks, and varies from a subtle russet-brown to brilliant scarlet and crimson hues, for which this tree is named. Chlorotic leaves will appear in soils with an alkaline pH. Many trees, like those of the very closely related Pin Oak, will retain dead leaves in winter that only abscise with twig and bud swell the following spring."




My tree definitely retained dead leaves long into winter, although few hung on until bud swell.  This tree is right next to the lake and gets hit with a lot of wind.

The leaf in this picture, if correctly identified, makes me more confident that my tree could be a scarlet oak after all.

WDH

Lanier_Lurker,

Your instincts were right ;).  It is scarlet oak.  The silver streaks are very evident in your pics.  In scarlet oak, the contrast between the silver streaks and the surrounding areas is not very striking.  There is relatively little contrast even though the silver streaking is still obvious.  In northern red oak, the contrast between the silver streaking and the surrounding bark is very significant. In fact, the area between the streaks in northern red oak can be almost black, so that you get a very distinct black/silver pattern.  The streaks are also wider, sometimes several inches in width.  They are narrower in scarlet.  The contrast is also much more subdued in scarlet.  Also in northern red, the depth of the sinuses between the lobes on the leaves do not go more than halfway to the midrib.  In scarlet, the depth is more than half way to the midrib.  As you can see in your pics of the leaves, the sinuses are very deep.  Another feature that helps use distinguish them is the length of the petiole.  Most times, the petiole length in northern red is 1 1/2" or less.  In scarlet, the leaf petiole is much longer, usually 2" - 3" in length.  The petioles in your pics are very long.  All this points definitively to scarlet.  If there is still any doubt, the acorns are strikingly different.  Northern red has an acorn cup that is saucer shaped in that it only clasps the base of the nut.  In scarlet, the acorn cup is deep, extending halfway up the nut.  Also, at the tip of the scarlet acorn you usually find several concentric rings around the tip of the nut.  There is no other oak acorn that has this feature.

I think you are right about the leaves in your pics being shade leaves.  If it was black oak shade leaves, they would be more shaped like a blob, irregularly lobes, definitely not very deep like these.  I will take some pics of black oak shade leaves and post them.  Kevjay posted some late last fall if you want to look at the archives.  Scarlet sun leaves will be very deeply cut and the tips will be very bristly.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

WDH

That severely deep sinus, almost extending to the midrib in your pics, is characteristic of three oaks.  Scarlet, Pin, and Shumard.  Pin oak does not naturally range in your area unless it was planted as an ornamental.  Shumard is a bottomland oak, one of the best for lumber quality.  It is not likely to occur around Lake Lanier.  Again, all signs point to scarlet.  The acorn of Shumard is like northern red oak, so that is the definitive feature to separate Shumard from Scarlet.  Very nice pics  8).  Sometimes people post pics of leaves that are not very clear, especially if they are still on the tree.  Your pics of the leaves and the bark were excellent, making for a positive ID  ;D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Phorester

Here's how the yellow cambium layer will appear in black oak.  Carve just underneath the rough outer bark with your knife.

               

You can see this thin yellow layer as a circle of yellow just underneath the bark on the trunk or on any limb that's cut off cleanly, like with a chainsaw.  But the color will fade and disappear as the fresh cut dries out.

WDH

Excellent pic, Phorester.

Another name for black oak is "yellow oak".  Kind of confusing, isn't it? 

I plan to initiate a post on identifying black oak tomorrow. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Lanier_Lurker

In a few weeks (when this cold weather ends and this tree will go ahead and leaf out) I will get pictures of some green leaves from this tree and add them to this post - just to make it complete.

The odd thing is I cannot find any other scarlet oaks like these in the vicinity.  There are actually 2 of them about 2 feet from each other - each with a dbh of 20 to 22 inches.  Since they are on Corps of Engineers property it is unlikely they were planted as ornamentals, but I cannot rule it out.

Thanks for all the help WDH and Phorester!!  Next up, I have several hickories I am trying to identify (they seem to be more difficult than oaks).  Stay tuned.



SwampDonkey

Quote from: Lanier_Lurker on April 13, 2007, 01:14:50 AM
The odd thing is I cannot find any other scarlet oaks like these in the vicinity.  There are actually 2 of them about 2 feet from each other

Found a couple bur oak growing like that in Irish Settlement, near Woodstock. Never seen another one in the area.
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