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short logs

Started by Klunker, February 25, 2019, 11:54:17 AM

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Klunker

If the sawmill is capable of sawing shorter logs, say 6ft are they a bigger pain than 8ft logs?

I have been quoted prices on sawing up some logs at cost/board ft.
I asked about length of logs relative to pricing.
Mill owners/operators seem to not care about length of log as long as its within mill capability.
Answer I get back is in one form or the other "price is based on square board ft you get when done"
Up charge if I want quarter sawing.

End result is I would like to get a working relationship with a local mill and don't want to take advantage.
I'd like the both of us to walk away happy at the end of the day.


Southside

Yes, shorter than normal logs can be more work, same as really large logs. Many times they won't fit in a loader without extra handling, the boards may not cooperate with conveyors, rollers, etc.  Sometimes the log clamps need to be adjusted just right, etc. It depends on the mill set up as to what works and what works well. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Old Greenhorn

I am relatively new in this game, so take what I say with a grain of salt and listen to the smarter folks whose comments will follow.
 I find short logs a bit easier, because it is, what it is. There is less messing around with finding a place to start. You get out of them what you get and there isn't much you can do to increase the yield as a good sawyer can with a longer log. There is pretty much the same amount of handling in a short log verses long, and the cutting time saved ins't much to speak of, but there is some. All in all, I would say you put a little more time into each board foot produced.
 This does not include any of the specialty stuff, like short crotches, bent sections for unique shelves or benches or anything in that order. Just routine milling. 
 Your mileage will certainly vary on this depending on the particulars. 
Now let's here what the smart folks have to say.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Klunker

One mill owner says he can do 3 ft logs.
He has a special jig he uses on the table.
One time cost to set-up and after that the cost is again by the board ft.

As mentioned above seems to me a 12ft log would be more work than 2) 6ft logs.
Easier to handle, especially if cutting 2" thick or greater stuff.

But I don't own a mill so I'm interested in owner/operator opinions.

WV Sawmiller

   Answer - yes, at least with my mill but I still saw them when I come across a good short log. Sawing is quick and easy - handling is more difficult and more time consuming. My loading arms are 5' apart so if shorter than that I have to put one end on the arm, lift to about 45 degrees then lift by hand on to the mill, clamp and saw. The toeboards are too widely spaced to be of any value so if I have to do any leveling I have to shim the low end by hand. If shorter than the space between my rails It is even harder as I have to put a spacer board underneath and usually beside the side supports to clamp against. I had a customer bring me some Paulonia that was not much longer than firewood. 

   I would suggest you not turn down a sawing job for short if you can handle it but charge accordingly. I bill short and small diameter stuff by the hour instead of bf and I advertise and explain accordingly so the customer understands and agrees before sawing starts. 

   When I am sawing a normal job and the customer has 1-2 short logs in the stack I just bill at a bf rate but if a large number or percent is short I bill hourly. In some cases I will advise and re-buck a long crooked log into 2 short ones for better yield and faster sawing. Be flexible. Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Brad_bb

A band sawyer is most efficient sawing 10-28 inch logs or so that are straight and without branch knots sticking out or taper.  Logs with taper, crooks, branch knots, or crotches sticking out are going to take more time to dress/slab straight before you can start sawing any board feet. Larger logs that push the mill's capacity will take longer to position, roll, dress, etc., but you will get more board feet once you start sawing the cant. 

Likewise, two 6ft logs will take longer than one 12 foot log as you have to set up and dress twice and make double the cuts and moving material twice.  Less time sawing in each doesn't come close to making up for that.

So for any of the above situations, I'd want to go hourly because of the excess time needed before you get any board feet.  If the logs are straight and regular and within the normal size range, then it's ok to go by the board foot.  

Just my opinion.  
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

SawyerTed

+1 on what WV Sawmiller says. Six foot logs do present some additional challenges.  Six feet long and 20-24 inches in diameter is easier than 6 feet long and 10 inches in diameter. 

I build a jig for short logs that is long enough to span the toe boards and the log stops.  To raise short logs onto the mill I put boards on the log lift arms. 

Short logs or very large logs get billed at the hourly rate. 

Ideally the shortest logs are 8'-6".
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

starmac

I have not to date had a reason to cut anything shorter than 8 ft plus trim.
That said a friend wants some 4 ft 3 sided logs to build an octagon sauna.
ideally I would still mill 8 or 12 footers to get them, but I think we can salvage enough out of the decks of tops we leave in the woods, since I would just need 8 1/2 in  on the small end. In other words, it would be free wood, even though there is no such thing as free wood. 
So I am thinking about giving it a go.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

TKehl

8-12' is the sweet spot for productivity for me.

My mill handles down to 4' pretty well, but others don't.

A lot more cranking per bd ft for short stuff, but if I had hydraulics maybe I wouldn't mind as much...

If there are a couple short ones in a bunch, I just roll with it.  If they are all short, I'll either charge for 8' or switch to hourly.  
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

YellowHammer

For me, with a hydraulic mill, yes, shorter logs than 8 feet is more aggravating and reduces hourly yield.  With a manual mill, maybe not so much.  When I had a manual mill, shorter logs just meant less weight to heft.  

YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

terrifictimbersllc

If you're purchasing the sawing service by the board foot of sawn lumber, at the same bf price for a short log ys. a long one (they're not for example rounding up 6ft boards to an 8ft minimum charge for example), I'd say you're getting a better deal with short logs than long logs. 

With most bandsaw mills, longer logs take the same amount of time, or less,  for most of the work as a short log of the same diameter. Manipulating short logs on the mill can be tedious and aggravating. 
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

WDH

Cutting short logs on a hydraulic mill is a great way to tear up something :)
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

Anything shorter than 8' gets scaled as 8' or is sawed hourly rate.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Crossroads

6 foot logs are slightly more challenging to me, but at least they fit on the loading arms. I'd take a 12' log over 2-6's any day. I made a jig that I use to slab 16" rounds for a guy. I've been back and fourth on charging by the scale or by the hour and seem to prefer milling by the hour. 
With the right fulcrum and enough leverage, you can move the world!

2017 LT40 wide, BMS250 and BMT250,036 stihl, 2001 Dodge 3500 5.9 Cummins, l8000 Ford dump truck, hr16 Terex excavator, Valley je 2x24 edger, Gehl ctl65 skid steer, JD350c dozer

moodnacreek

 Same answer as M.M., Charge for8 '. Less than 6' will on fit my log deck

terrifictimbersllc

I think the OP was asking about paying for sawing services. We need to help him take advantage of the Sawyer! 😱😱😱
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Rhodemont

Sawing alone on my LT35 I get the greatest production with 12 or 14 ft logs.  My up time, actual time blade is in the wood sawing, is probably 1/3 at best of my total time.  The rest is loading, set up, turning, handling which takes the same for an 8 or shorter. So that little extra time to saw that last 4 or six feet is a plus.  Going to 16 ft or longer takes more time to handle cause those boards get heavier.

So, as Terrifictimbers has implied, you take advantage of the sawyer by taking him for the same price on short logs as offered for long (assuming the long price is good).  Like what MM does scale 8 or shorter the same for pricing.
Woodmizer LT35HD    JD4720 with Norse350 winch
Stihl 362, 039, Echo CS-2511T,  CS-361P and now a CSA 300 C-O

Klunker

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on February 26, 2019, 10:33:58 AM
I think the OP was asking about paying for sawing services. We need to help him take advantage of the Sawyer! 😱😱😱
wasn't looking to take advantage of anyone. Opposite as a matter of fact.
am looking to start a relationship with a local sawyer and I'd like to see that he's happy.
Been my experience that if you pay vendors/subs well and pay right away,
be fair with them on required turn around time, give them lots of time when you have it and only ask for quick turn around when its needed
Do what you can ahead of time to make their job easier, like maybe cutting root swell off ahead of time and the like.
Respect their equipment, don't give them logs loaded with gravel and dirt
then you can expect to be treated fairly on price, get quality work at a reasonable turn around.
Life is so much easier when your subs/vendors want to do work for you.
Simple as that

WV Sawmiller

   I think if you are up front with the sawyer and you are happy with his pricing you will both be satisfied. The thing that none of us like is surprises where the customer tells us he has one type of log set up and we get there and it is totally and knowingly different than described. 
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

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