Three phase power for planer

[YellowHammer]

I'm probably going to buy a big double sided carpet planer, requiring up to 150 amps to operate.  I don't have three phase power at my shop and have been running a phase converter for up to 20 hp, but this planer may have both a 20 up upper and a 20 hp lower motor plus a feed motor plus bed adjust motor.  So maybe 50 plus hp required.  

I've been looking at additional phase converters for the 50 to 75 hp size, they are plus $7K and due to newer county codes I'd need another power drop, new meter, and additional power pole from the county dedicated to this machine for a few $grand as my existing circuits are maxed out.  

Even then, it would only be single phase, I can't get three phase at this location so I'd be out at least $10K maybe $15K before I even bought the planer.

Or buy a generator, maybe a 30KW or 40KW, and most of them that haven't seen thousands of hours of use, are in the $11K+ range.  One more thing to maintain and break down.  

Also, could I use a standby generator vs a continuous duty generator?  I won't be using the planer that much, maybe a day a week.  

Any ideas or recommendations?  

[K-Guy]

Go green. buy some harbor freight solar panels.  :D

Seriously, I'd get more power brought in. More than you need if possible or affordable.

[Al_Smith]

I'd say it's a lot of money to be used on a part time operation .Many argue the benefits of a generator and I maintain you can't usually make it as cheaply as you can purchase it .It all depends on the availability which in my case is about 700 feet away in front of my property .Others in middle of nowhere it might be miles away .So as far as a conversation it's apples to oranges .I will add 150 amps would take a huge rotary converter not an option . 

[RichTired]

Yellowhammer, who provides your power?  Alabama Power or TVA?

Years ago, I had a French chef friend that opened a French restaurant in the city of Mountain Brook (city right next to the city of Birmingham).  Alabama Power really made it worth his while to go total electric and not to use any natural gas.  Even reimbursing him to convert gas ovens to electric and having UL list the ovens once they arrived from France.

Along with some very nice perts for him and a couple of his friends... :D

[Hilltop366]

Too bad you could not run it powered direct like the old saw mills, you know toss the rear end out of the old truck that you don't use anymore and extend the shaft..... or back the tractor up and put on the PTO.

[DWyatt]

Seems like you're at the tipping point for your electrical supply, you show up at this problem every time you upgrade a machine. From the power company standpoint, you are small commercial, but at the rate you're growing, you could become a very valuable customer to the electric company in a hurry. I know that power companies are hard to work with, but I wonder if you could work some kind of a deal with the power company like what @RichTired is talking about. Maybe justify bringing back some of your planing in-house with this upgrade to get your power usage up to be more appealing to the power company. The problem is that the guy who shows up to evaluate new services is not going to be the guy who you can negotiate with, you need someone higher up than him. 

[Southside]

What about getting a gen head for your tractor PTO?  I saw a few go this spring for $3-$5K.  Look around in the big dairy world, most guys have one or two just in case.  

[YellowHammer]

I've talked to the power people, they will cost share if I agree to a $2.5 million investment.  Nope.  

It's a lot to invest in a one day a week task, but in reality, we pay a company to plane our wood at $300 to $600 per week, which even if I bring half that back in house, would make the monthly payment on the planer.

[scsmith42]

Robert, I have a 25" Oliver two sided planer in my shop, and it's the most used piece of equipment in the shop.  Mine has a 20 hp planer head, 15hp jointer head, and 3 hp carpet and planer roller feed.



 


I run it and all of the 3 phase equipment off of a 400 hp / 225KW Kohler generator, and have for 10 years.



 

The nice thing about a generator is that there is no demand charge.  The bad thing is that it is another piece of equipment that requires maintenance.  Mine was a backup generator for a high rise condo that was replaced with 307 hours on it (local Fire Marshall red tagged it because of some aesthetic corrosion issues).

It's wired for a 480V output to a panel board.  The board has breakers for all of the 480 equipment, and also a breaker to feed a step down transformer (480 to 240 3 phase).  The step down transformer feeds a transfer switch, which is also fed by a 30hp RPC.  Output goes to the 240V 3 phase panel.  

The 800A 480V panel board is to the left of the generator room doors below, and the 400A 240 3 phase panel is to the left of the 480 panel (partially obscured by a pair of 240 single phase panels).  Both of the 3 phase panels were good used takeouts that came from a textile mill that had closed. I bought them, full of i-line breakers, along with the transformer for around .25 on the dollar back in '09.



 

This setup allows me to operate 20HP and under 240 3 phase equipment off of either the RPC or the generator.  Since single phase service does not have a demand charge this lets me run a 10hp air compressor, 5 hp Radial Arm Saw, jump saw, Woodmizer twin blade edger, small dust collection system, etc off of line power while maintaining the option to power it from the generator if I need to use it for bigger equipment.  The generator option is practical if I have several employees doing various tasks inside the shop and need to run both 480V and 240V equipment at the same time.

11 years ago when I set all this up the local power company wanted over 30K to bring in 3 phase.  I wasn't sure how much I'd need it (or if the business would even be successful) so I opted for a resellable asset instead - ie the generator.

Earlier this year I was planning to switch over to line power (now only 16K to bring it in because they've run a second phase down the poles by my farm), but have instead opted to put those plans on hold due to business shrinkage due to Covid-19.

I have seen a clear difference between running equipment off of the generator versus the phase converter.  Motor's spin up much faster and have more torque.

Your business is established enough to where you can justify bringing in 3 phase if it's not too expensive.  All things considered, if I were you and had a choice between 11K for a generator versus 11K for 3 phase line service, I'd opt for the latter.  The reason why is that your shop will not be dependent upon a motorized piece of equipment, you won't have to maintain it, or deal with the noise issues and ongoing fuel costs.

For the larger sized motor's, I'd definitely suggest either a soft start or other means to spin them up (low hp pony motor system) so as to avoid the demand charge.

My generator costs me around .35 per minute for operating costs, including fuel and maintenance.

Hope this helps.

Scott

[YellowHammer]

Lots of good info.  The power company will only bring in single phase.  They looked at bringing me in 3 phase and the nearest drop is about a half mile away, and they said they would have to change a lot of the transformers, pole arms, etc, and and said unless I could get government funding would be so expensive he said "even my children would be paying for it."

So my two options are single phase with a phase converter, or generator.  The planer I'm looking at is pretty close to what you have, top and bottom with jointing head.  I'm hoping and glad to hear you say it is a centerpiece, and use it for all our planing and 90% of our jointing.  

It sounds like the generator will provide "snappier" power, and I've been looking at both standby and primary power generators, and I'm worried that the standby generator won't have the duty cycle.  At this point, it won't be running unless the planer is running, but was reading up on the standby generator descriptions, and they say not to run them more than 200 hours per year, which could be limiting in the future, especially if I try to eventually convert my sawmill over to electric.

I don't mind investing money in the future, it just seems running new single phase power is limiting, buying a generator is a good option but is more to maintain and break down, and 3 phase line power just isn't going to happen.  I like the idea of the generator being a sellable asset if I want to upgrade.

If I go with a generator, I also would need to find someone around here would would be a mechanic.  Who works on them?  I have no idea.  I don't have a generator dealer close by, so don't know of a service shop, or at least as far as I know. 

  

[Al_Smith]

There are all kinds of options of controlling the demand factor corrections on 3 phase stuff .Just depends on how much money you want to spend .
Larger generators are where you find them but probably the best are units could be found from small hospitals ,nursing homes etc ..Because of certain laws they have to be replaced after they get a certain age or a certain amount of running hours .I could give a number of examples I've been involved in .

One I will mention from a local telephone company that had 2 GMC 12V 71 engines with the generator  in the middle with one engine running clock wise and the other running counter clockwise .It was replaced with a large Cummins single engine unit.The replaced unit  was sold to a large egg farm in Minnesota .A local hustler auctioneer type I know made 50 grand on that deal and never touched the unit which had about 300 hours of run time .

With the advent of the internet a unit could probably be located a lot more easily these days than in times I mentioned in that example .Then you have.as been mentioned tractor powered units .It would take a pretty beefy tractor to power one though .The old 8N Ford won't get the job done . 

[scsmith42]

Around me generator service companies can be divided into two categories - major national player (think Caterpillar dealer) and the local independent service co.

I have a great local independent service co.  They are the ones that had the generator (customer owned that they had replaced due to the fire Marshall's order) and are alway available to walk me through troubleshooting a problem and also to obtain parts.

One option for you is to check with Koehler and Cummins Onan to find out who their local independent authorized representatives are, and go from there.  

You can also check with local fire departments, municipalities, telecom's, 911 centers, hospitals, etc to find out who locally services their equipment.

When I was originally looking for a get set, I was advised to find one that was 2X the size of my max load.  So I could get by with 75KW - 100KW.  The deal on my 225KW was too good to pass up though, and the generator was in too nice of condition.

Rather than a direct feed, I'd advise you to feed a 480V panel board from the generator, and then wire the equipment from there.  This provides proper circuit protection as well a provisions for more 3 phase equipment.

Scott

[Bruno of NH]

I have seen big gen sets on the government auction sites
Military and government buildings .
Would something like that work for you ?

[Stuart Caruk]

I don't think you'll have any problems... For well over 20 years I have run my CNC fab shop with a rotary phase converter that I built. The first one used a 25hp motor fed from a 50 amp service. I used it for simple equipment like a lathe, drill press and manual mill. It worked great. When I added larger CNC machines I built a larger one based on a 60HP 3 phase motor fed by a dedicated 200 amp 240VAC single phase disconnect. I added caps to balance out the loads.

That converter has run an 80 kva Mazak Integrex, a horizontal mill with a 45 HP spindle, a couple large CNC mills, and a 25 hp CNC mill, often all at the same time. It's worked just fine.

In reality, most of your motors start unloaded, and the real draw is the cold inrush during a start under load. Once the first motor is started, the back EMF from the generated wild leg from each motor feeds back into the circuit and it helps run the next motor in turn. You would be surprised what you can get away with.

The Integrex has an 80kva requirement, yet the transformer that feeds my entire shop is only rated 50 kva. In reality it assumes that all 3 main spindles, all 8 axis drive motors, the brake releases, tool changer motors, chip conveyor, etc would all start under load at the exact same time. It just isn't going to happen.

[Al_Smith]

Converters are not rocket science but explaining them can be a daunting task .Which is why I don't try to get too  deep in theory .
Although I've built a lot of them my personal set up is only 5HP which right now all I need .
In normal thinking it might appear to be odd .I've got a #2 copper feed line ,100 amps .Then two 20 KVA control transformers wired boost 240 in 480 out .Low voltage series ,HV parallel .Converter motor 480 volts .For the 240 volt motors on some of the real old stuff like a 1938-40  Bridgeport milling machine ,three phase transformer 480 to 240 .An other oddball 208 /365 Y European transformer I've never used  .In addition one single phase 240 to 24 volt trans wired auto for boost for 277 volt lighting .My incoming is about 248 volts at the location of my shop .
Now with all that industrial junk I salvaged I have not one thin dime in it only my time .Just right place right time situation .Of course I have the know how of what to do with  it which helps .That said it's all on the net if you search it out . 

[tacks Y]

I see used big gen sets for sale quite often. Not bad prices just to big for most people. I have a big one in my scrap pile I could not sell. So in the junk it went.   

[YellowHammer]

I'd like to get one of the bigger ones, 50 KW to 100KW and have been shopping around, and it seems I can get a non serviced, used one for about $10K, but that's a lot of money to spend on a Craigslist add, with no real idea if it works, other than if the motor runs it must be producing power. 

I haven't had much luck yet in sourcing a used one from a reputable dealer, most around here seem to be selling and refurbishing the Generac home standby units and they are too small or don't have the duty cycle.  

Or it's a low hour prime power unit, the dealers want $20K or more.  The low hour, low price, 50KW prime power units for sale are usually single phase.  

Nothing is easy.  

[Al_Smith]

To cut to the chase I'm afraid you're just going to have to bite the bullet .Whatever you do you aren't going to do cheaply .

[K-Guy]

You may find a good deal on a government surplus one.

[Al_Smith]

Gov-deals .com but it could be any place in the USA .Plus it's sight unseen There's always E-bay but again you have to move it even if it does run okay .Danged thing could be 30 miles away or in northern Maine or south  California .
You have to factor the whole thing .I once bought a cylinder head for a 1940 7J  series D4 Cat .100 bucks and 100 to ship it from Maine .That was for something around 200 pounds .

[tule peak timber]

Look at "Boats And Harbors", the yellow sheet out of Crossville , Tn.
 Since 1986 I've owned, turned , and cooked Yanmars, Kubotas, Cummins',John Deere's, mostly in my boats.Be extremely careful on surplus( and rebuilds). The price of an airplane ticket to see the "rebuild room" of a LOT of big advertisers is cheap in comparison to spending hard dollars. Some rebuild rooms consist solely of a kid with a can of Krylon spray paint. New is better....
 I'm currently running both a phase converter and a standby Kubota and need much more power than I can get out of either.Be confident on your daily operating numbers (mostly fuel) and the 30, 40, 50 grand to bring in 3 phase starts looking pretty good..........You should have taken me up on my offer to supply truckloads of walnut burl.....

[YellowHammer]

I've been making more calls today about new ones, as suggested, and found that Kohler, Generac, etc will not warranty any of their generators if they are used in a non standby mode, as primary power, even if they are only operated a couple hours a day.

One of the dealers told me about a guy who had bought a new $20K genset for "off grid" power to recharge his batteries in his lake house.  He also uses solar panels, but he does operate his house occasionally off the generator.  So no big deal....wrong.  

Apparently some large dollar amount worth of parts failed, the generator only had a few hundred hours, and was only a couple years old, and the manufacturer wouldn't warrant the fix because there was no line power run to the off grid house and the generator was being used as primary power, although only a few hours a day.  The dealer went round and round with the manufacturer, but the end result was that the customer got stuck with the bill.  Or rather, the customer didn't pay for the repair, he scrapped the generator, left the remains with the dealer, and walked out.  So the dealer lost the customer, who apparently bought a CAT generator for about $25K, and apparently they fully warrant theirs for primary power.  I'll call CAT to find out.  

So that's interesting news. Buy a new generator, actually use it, and don't get a warranty.  Not what I want to hear.   

[tule peak timber]

If you ask dealers that sell gen sets using Delco, Stamford, Marathon, ends ---you will get answers a little different than Kohler or Generac are giving you.
 I've never turned a Cat motor, except in one of my forklifts, but I can say that Yanmar and Kubota and Cummins are top notch in the 100KW range as far as power plants go.1800 RPM.
 The heavy duty gen set makers are where you might want to look in my humble opinion. Keep an eye out for 1200 RPM units that do not meet enviro standards.......

[RichTired]

So if you purchase one of these "Standby" generators and you loss power during an ice storm for a week or two; you can't run your generator and still have the warranty? :

[Ljohnsaw]

Semi-related question.  I have a 6,500w Onan generator (from an RV) that has a 240v welder plug wired to it (30amp breaker).  If needed, could I open my main house breaker and back feed this 30a 240 circuit into my 50a 240 circuit for my welder and selectively power critical-ish stuff in my house (refrigerator, internet, tv)?  No, not my A/C or my pool pump.

I also have solar but it needs to see frequency to produce or it goes off-line.  If it is connected, is it gonna fry my generator since you can't "back feed" the excess?