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New to felling trees

Started by Timberline, March 25, 2021, 03:29:06 PM

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firefighter ontheside

The class I referred to is S212 Wildland Fire Chainsaws.  Try googling that name with michigan in the search and see if its offered anywhere around.  The class teaches all about saws and how to use them to buck and fell.  I would also recommend to get another, smaller saw.  Something with an 18" bar is a good size to be a smaller saw compared to your 660 and better for learning to saw.  Even someone who is experienced and skilled enough to use a 660 will have a smaller saw to use too.  
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Timberline

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 26, 2021, 11:05:16 AM
DO NOT go cheap on your safety gear. Get gear that is tested and approved for the chain speeds you are running. Take some time to learn the standards.
Also, keep in mind a big CC chainsaw has a lot of gyroscopic action with a big bar on it. This takes some getting used to for a new user. Work hard at developing good habits, you will need them.
Ok, I hear you there. I guess when I was referring to Chinese stuff it probably is made in China but it's from Forester. Looks like 3 levels of Husqvarna gear. The pro kit is about $200 but I don't mind paying if it's the best. I do want to get some good gear.

alan gage

Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

ALaff

I agree with the others...someone with some experience can take out a 30" tree with a 14" saw.  It's all in the techniques used.  I started with a Husky 455 and a Sthil MS 260.  But the best exposure was through a local organization NH Timber Owners Assn.  They had hands on chainsaw courses and tree felling courses; which was great because you had a handful of pros taking the course for their annual recertification and they know their stuff.  Also check your local Cooperative Extension.  

Also bucking with a big saw sucks...the lighter the better.
And always wear the chaps; *DanG mine look like someone attacked me, but they saved my ass a few times.

HemlockKing

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 26, 2021, 09:47:58 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 26, 2021, 09:23:27 AM
Why GOL why back bore every tree with a scratch face? GOL is a good way to make some way too confident in a skill they do not have and it will make you more tired at the end of the day.
Skeans, you have mentioned this a few times before and your point is well taken.  However, for the lone wolf out there who has no mentor and nobody to teach and coach him a person should get whatever proper training they can. It is a good start. If a person gets cocky they will get in trouble but hopefully the training gets them going well enough to start learning how things might go wrong. There are many fancy ways to drop good trees, but these require a very good teacher that can explain the physics and teach how the various cuts are chosen. Some good training, whatever is available is always better than no training, I took GOL up 3 levels, I certainly don't back bore every tree, not even close, don't use wedges unless that's what is really needed.
No matter the skill or experience I gain I will ALWAYS remain humble and keep in the back of my mind I'm walking a fine line between life and death while out in the woods alone running a saw, every day, I try to acknowledge it might be my last, if I keep reminding myself this it keeps me from doing risky things and being a "bad ass", if I notice I'm starting to cut corners in my work and even the slightest tired/gassed I take a break. This mentality has probably saved me a couple times.

Oh more advice to a new feller, GET YER FRIGGEN PPE, helmet, muffs and chaps/steel toe/saw boots, for a long while I went with just wearing safety glasses, I decides one day I wanna start wearing one of those cool husky or stihl helmet setups with the mesh screen, 2 days after I got it, what do you know? BONK on my head from a snag tree that let loose a massive 2 inch+ branch, some how I managed to navigate without getting hit in the head previously, I would never go into the woods without that stuff on anymore.
A1

lshobie

The main question is that in your steep learning curve and it's not a matter of if a feller will have an accident  - it's when the feller has an accident do you want to do it with an 660 or something a little more respectable.  If you are an airline pilot you make enough to buy a small saw to start and then buy bigger when the need arises.

Think about it this way....what is the average lifespan of a non IFR rated pilot in IFR conditions?

JMO.

Louie
John Deere 440 Skidder, C5 Treefarmer,  Metavic Forwarder, Massey 2500 Forklift, Hyundai HL730 Wheel Loader, Woodmizer LT40, Valley Edger,  Alaskan Mill, Huskys, Stihls, and echos.

Timberline

Quote from: lshobie on April 01, 2021, 09:25:24 AM
The main question is that in your steep learning curve and it's not a matter of if a feller will have an accident  - it's when the feller has an accident do you want to do it with an 660 or something a little more respectable.  If you are an airline pilot you make enough to buy a small saw to start and then buy bigger when the need arises.

Think about it this way....what is the average lifespan of a non IFR rated pilot in IFR conditions?

JMO.

Louie
Haha I hear you there! What do you think of using the G5800 (54cc saw) to use as the smaller saw to learn on? 

Timberline

I purchased the husky helmet and technical chaps and technical gloves. From what I could see they seemed like the best I could get a hold of. Also trying to buy some Oregon class 1 boots. 

I got the G5800 up and running with an 18 inch bar. I was going to get a 24 inch bar for the 660. This brought up a question: it seems in that bar length you can get low kickback full chisel or semi chisel that is not low kickback. Semi chisel is inherently lower kickback, right? Which one am I better off with, or is there a way to get low kickback semi chisel?

Skeans1

I'll play devil's advocate why go plastic for a hard hat when you can get aluminum? Which is more likely to save you from a widow maker as well as reflect heat/rain? Boots different parts of the country you wear different things but my personal preference is caulk boots for doing work around timber you're not going to slide. The difference between the two will be the depth gauge design the low kick back will have a bumper so the depth gauge won't full allow the cutter to engage the wood well cutting. A far as cutters go there's three main cutters available round chisel, round semi chisel, and square chisel.

btulloh

I guess low kickback chain is a good thing and I don't want to short change safety but i think it's better to learn to avoid kickback and use regular chain. I'd like to see others opinions on this. 
HM126

firefighter ontheside

You can very well still have a kickback with reduced kickback chain.  No matter what chain you use, you should be very aware of what causes kickback.  The reduced kickback chain is not any better for cutting your forehead with.  If a person is never going to use a saw enough to be safe with other chain, then the reduced kickback is for them.  I always had it on my 025 and it cut just fine.  I can even bore with it, but not as fast.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

btulloh

All very true, FFOTS.  No type of chain replaces experience and training.  

It sounds to me like the OP is going to follow the right course.  Just the fact that he's here and asking for good input means a lot.  Nothing beats good training and working with someone who knows proper techniques.  

I've known a lot of pilots and they all seemed to have one thing in common:  a commitment to following procedure and knowing their limits.  Even the hot shots I have known are like that.  They can go out on the edge, but they know where the edge is.  A 54 cc saw and some experience and training will be a good launching point.  Running a big saw can come later.  I see this turning out well.

HM126

Timberline

Skeans1, I wasn't aware you could get aluminum hats. I did a quick search and couldn't find any. Is there a brand you like?

btulloh, yes my thoughts exactly of starting with the small saw, get training before felling anything and wait to use the big saw before becoming competent. I'be learned a lot from you guys already and excited to learn more. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Sounds like everyone agrees I am better off learning to use standard chain safely. I'm thinking of getting some regular semi chisel chain. Sounds like it's easier to sharpen and stays sharp longer.

Ianab

Quote from: btulloh on April 02, 2021, 08:56:34 PMI've known a lot of pilots and they all seemed to have one thing in common:  a commitment to following procedure and knowing their limits.  Even the hot shots I have known are like that.  They can go out on the edge, but they know where the edge is.  A 54 cc saw and some experience and training will be a good launching point.  Running a big saw can come later.  I see this turning out well.


Pilot analogy. You don't start out in a B787.  You learn in a Cessna first . The aerodynamic rules and weather is the same, just a lot less risk. Like cutting a 12" tree vs a 48" one. 

Watch the decent videos like the Husky and GOL ones. Then grab a smaller saw and drop some small trees for firewood. You can book learn as much as you want, but it takes a bit of practice to drop large trees safely. It's not exactly rocket science, but there are traps / hazards / mistakes you can make.  

LIl (Wife / Kindy Teacher) actually has an official certificate in chainsaw operation.  Not the same level as a professional logger, and the instructor passed her, but said she needed more practical. But it was a 2 day course that went into bore cutting etc. Designed for farmers / firewood cutters etc and paid for by the Govt Accident Insurance. Buddy needed 4 to put on the course, so Lil got roped in to make up the numbers.

 ACC had noticed a lot of chainsaw and tree injuries, so put on those free courses to try and reduce them.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

mike_belben

Just think of every saw as an alligator.  Whether big or small, you hold onto any size alligator just as tight.  
Praise The Lord

SwampDonkey

I remember I was out on the woodlot cutting a small bunch of logs. I had cut and yarded out most of what I wanted. No troubles. Father came along about the time I wanted one more log tree, a nice yellow birch. Well, he wanted to cut it of course. :D Well, he lodged the thing of course, it barber chaired and ruined my nice log with a split up the middle of the but log. I wasn't happy. Old age getting ahead of technique. Couldn't stand not being part of the action you know. ::) :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: Timberline on April 02, 2021, 11:22:24 PM
Skeans1, I wasn't aware you could get aluminum hats. I did a quick search and couldn't find any. Is there a brand you like?

btulloh, yes my thoughts exactly of starting with the small saw, get training before felling anything and wait to use the big saw before becoming competent. I'be learned a lot from you guys already and excited to learn more. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Sounds like everyone agrees I am better off learning to use standard chain safely. I'm thinking of getting some regular semi chisel chain. Sounds like it's easier to sharpen and stays sharp longer.
ALuminum is available in many places, but is mostly sold to the pros who see the value of investment in good equipment and it pays off for them. Westech Rigging Supply has a good selection of Skull Buckets, and Bailey's online and Madsen's also carry aluminum but I am not sure of the branding. You can also go to the SKull Bucket page and find their distributers. For that kind of money ($65.-$75.) I stay away from the Forester stuff because I don't want it to arrive and I find a 'made in China' stamp in it. You will pay a higher price for Aluminum, especially full brim, but they don't really expire until they have been damaged. I just ordered a new full brim Skull Bucket from Westech last week because they were the only ones who had Hi Vis Orange in stock (what can I say, I'm a slave to fashion). With a full brim you need a very different screen setup (separate purchase) and you can't get attached muffs, so you need to either use behind the head muffs or ear plugs. I use either depending on season and the work load that day.
 As for your chain selection. I never had any luck with low kickback chain cutting efficiently (YMMV) and for my smaller saw (Husky 450) I settled in on the 20LPX Oregon chain which is a full round chisel. This has the advantage of letting me re-file it to a square chisel after the first sharpening. Square chisel is my preference, but that is a whole other thread (there are many good ones you can reference on the forum) and you really don't want to get distractacted by that until much further down the road.
 Good luck, work safe.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Skeans1

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on April 03, 2021, 06:42:16 AM
Quote from: Timberline on April 02, 2021, 11:22:24 PM
Skeans1, I wasn't aware you could get aluminum hats. I did a quick search and couldn't find any. Is there a brand you like?

btulloh, yes my thoughts exactly of starting with the small saw, get training before felling anything and wait to use the big saw before becoming competent. I'be learned a lot from you guys already and excited to learn more. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Sounds like everyone agrees I am better off learning to use standard chain safely. I'm thinking of getting some regular semi chisel chain. Sounds like it's easier to sharpen and stays sharp longer.
ALuminum is available in many places, but is mostly sold to the pros who see the value of investment in good equipment and it pays off for them. Westech Rigging Supply has a good selection of Skull Buckets, and Bailey's online and Madsen's also carry aluminum but I am not sure of the branding. You can also go to the SKull Bucket page and find their distributers. For that kind of money ($65.-$75.) I stay away from the Forester stuff because I don't want it to arrive and I find a 'made in China' stamp in it. You will pay a higher price for Aluminum, especially full brim, but they don't really expire until they have been damaged. I just ordered a new full brim Skull Bucket from Westech last week because they were the only ones who had Hi Vis Orange in stock (what can I say, I'm a slave to fashion). With a full brim you need a very different screen setup (separate purchase) and you can't get attached muffs, so you need to either use behind the head muffs or ear plugs. I use either depending on season and the work load that day.
As for your chain selection. I never had any luck with low kickback chain cutting efficiently (YMMV) and for my smaller saw (Husky 450) I settled in on the 20LPX Oregon chain which is a full round chisel. This has the advantage of letting me re-file it to a square chisel after the first sharpening. Square chisel is my preference, but that is a whole other thread (there are many good ones you can reference on the forum) and you really don't want to get distractacted by that until much further down the road.
Good luck, work safe.
Madsens or Baileys both should have orange in stock it's pretty much a requirement anymore depending on where you're working to have them painted. As far as the chain goes why go round to square why not just start at square it comes fresh off the roll that way. I think bringing this is a great thing for someone to learn that way they can ask the questions of what do I want to run and why.

firefighter ontheside

My dad has his aluminum hard hat from being a hot shot in OR in the 1960s.  He got hit by a log rolling on a hillside.  There is a nice dent in the hat and he got knocked out, but was fine.  All of my helmets now are either plastic or composite.  
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Skeans1

I've taken a good sized widow maker well wearing an aluminum full brim before that other then knocking me out plus a filling out and denting the hard hat saved my bacon. This is one of the reasons why you also see me on the stump longer especially when thinning I've been hit from even a good distance out of the way at a 45 degree angle and another family friend was killed that same day from the same thing.

Old Greenhorn



I don't know, nor could I figure out who makes some of those aluminum ones. I wasn't going to spend that kind of money unless I knew what I was getting. I think Madsen's said they were Forestors but you could double check me and I don't know who makes those or where they are made, they were only about 5 bucks cheaper. Most places I checked were out of stock on the orange and I don't look good in yellow, it clashes with my eyes. :D ;D :)
 You can't get square chisel for .325 x .05 in loops, not sure if you could get a roll, but that's too much chain for me, plus all the tools. the 20LPX was the closest I could find to convert and it is a darn good chain as it comes. Square chisel is a true oddball around these parts and most guys don't even know what you are talking about, they think you mean round chisel. Nobody sells, or can even identify the files.  I took a class once and the instructor was going around asking the folks what they were running on their saws for chains, many didn't even know. When he got to me I just said ".325x.050, no skip, square chisel" and got ready for him to ask again. Instead he just grew this big smile across his face and asked how I came by that. I explained and told him I was still having a little trouble filing it just right. He said "we'll have a private session later during lunch, you got a winner there!" The other guys started asking but he kind of let it go just saying 'you've got to learn to work with what you have before you start exploring what you can't yet understand.' ;D That little private session over lunch turned into a demo as everyone wanted to see what this was all about. Not for everybody, but it works for me.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

SwampDonkey

We can't even wear those wide brimmed hard hats here, can't even buy them on the east coast (Canada). Not CSA approved was why. We had some on the west coast, it's all we wore out there. But were hard plastic. Everybody thinks they gotta make stuff from plastic. Well, cheaper, yes. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Old Greenhorn

Well I was surprised to find that my new hat arrived today. Happy with the bucket itself (time will tell), I am a little disappointed in the 'fit and finish' of the suspension.  For the 70 bucks I paid you think they would take just a few seconds and make sure they have rigged the suspension correctly, I had to fix or re-run a few pieces that were going through the wrong passage. no big deal just annoying. Also, they did not properly trim the plastic after it came out of the mold, so there were some slider buttons that did not sit flat and stuck into my scalp until I found an fixed those issues. Also there was one tiny sprue gate from the mold that was pointed and did stick into my skull and hurt like the dockens until I found a trimmed that off. I do wish it sat 1/2" lower but am hoping it settles down with a little sweat. I stuck my old screen on it and it doesn't look too bad.


 

Also, the sweat band is about as cheap as it can be, but I had ordered a terry sweat band anyway. I keep a spare in my bag all the time as they are cheap and don't last long. This one might last a few weeks.


 

Anyway, this is it for me, no more new hats. I may order a spare suspension because this one looks like it may not stand up to abuse, but we will see. Right now I am just wondering if the new hat makes my butt look big?



 

I just gotta get it a little dirty, add a decal or two, and I'll be good to go. Right now it is way too shiny.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Skeans1

@Old Greenhorn 
Been running those sweat band in this hats for the better part of 10 years and never had an issue with one. As for the suspension set it in the heat then put it on your head and press it down for a few minutes then it'll setup to your head. If that doesn't feel comfortable let me know there's a few shops around here that offer some different versions of suspension for them. 

Old Greenhorn

good to know that other shops make suspensions for them. I never would have thunk it. Yeah, wetting and stretching is wat I meant by adding some sweat. The sweatband is foam and I always hated those, they irritate my delicate skin ;D. The terry ones feel better and seem to wick things off better. That is the bet feature on my Bullard hat, hard as nails when you first put it on because it is full of dried salt, but softens up real quick once it's wet and stays comfortable the rest of the day. Never did find a winter liner/shell I liked. The best thing I've found is just pulling up a hoodie, but this suspension may not have enough room for that, at least not yet. Anyway, glad I finally got it, now to break it in.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

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