Manual pinned topic

[charles mann]

Admins: 
Is there a way to create a topic/thread and pin it to keep it at the top? Is it even allowed? If so, use to upload pdf files for maint and parts manuals for chain saws? 

[chet]

The biggest problem I see right off da bat is copyrighted material.

[rusticretreater]

An admin can pin a topic.  

[charles mann]

Tomorrow, i'll ask the stihl dealer that i got my 661 and 880 manuals from and see if at least stihl considers their manuals copyright protected. I do own a husq and jonesred and will talk to the local husq dealer as well and if they service/support JR, see what they say. 

If the manuals are not copyright protected, only money out their pocket protected, but they are willing to give me at least the manuals for the saws i own. 

Would a letter from the dealers stating the manuals are not protected suffice to consider pinning a topic in the chainsaw section?

[John Mc]

It's not up to the dealer to decide whether to waive the copyright or not. Only Stihl corporate can do that. Also, you don't really need the dealers opinion, just check the manual itself: if it's copyrighted (and I'd be shocked if it were not) it will say so.

CORRECTION: For quite some time now (decades), a publication is considered copyrighted automatically (at least in the US, as well as in many other countries). There is no need to include a copyright notice. So unless you see a notice otherwise, a publication is considered to be copyrighted.

[Ianab]

Just to add, copyright of a book is basically an automatic thing, it doesn't have to be stated or registered for it to be copyrighted. (Those things can be done to improve the legal standing, but it's not necessary to assert the copyright.) 


Now some sites DO collect various manuals for equipment, but they are generally old (copyright expired) or basically "abandoned" material. If the company or brand no longer exists, chances are no one will defend the copyright, even if it's technically covered. I'm thinking places like Old Machinery sites. Anything published before 1927 is now Public Domain, in the US at least. Feel free to post a copy of your Ford Model T workshop manual if you have one laying around.  ;) 


An author / artist can also give up their copyright, and effectively place the work in the public domain, but they actually have to give that permission to copy, otherwise the automatic copyright still applies.  Now a dealer (The legal owner of a copy) letting you read their service manual is no problem. Letting you take a copy is technically not allowed, but who is going to know? But posting that copy on a public web page probably WILL get noticed, and the Forum doesn't want to have to deal with that. 

[charles mann]

It's not up to the dealer to decide whether to waive the copyright or not. Only Stihl corporate can do that. Also, you don't really need the dealers opinion, just check the manual itself: if it's copyrighted (and I'd be shocked if it were not) it will say so.

They may know if they are. I didnt say they could take it Upon themselves to authorize the release of the copyright. 

@Ianab 
I did look at my manuals and did not see any type of copyright logo, marking or watermarks. But like you said, It doesnt have to be stated, it could be automatic. 
I can also understand the FF not wanting to have to deal with copyright infringement. 


Again, ill ask dealer and see if the manuals are protected. 


Not related to chainsaws, but still manual related. Some grain belt states have been able to create a right to maintain law, concerning ag equipment. The farmer/end user now has the rights to maint and parts manuals and diagnostic equipment for their equipment, releasing them from the financial claws and slow/time consuming field svc appointments. 

The auto industry (cars light/med, heavy duty, including OTR big trucks) is the same, even though some people may have to pay for (dodge/cummins since thats what i own) the manuals and diagnostic equipment so the owners/end users can maintain their equipment. 
Maybe it will eventually trickle down to handheld outdoor power equipment. 


My main reason for wanting the manuals for myself, and read where others sure could use them, were due to the incompetency of local dealer/svc centers or dealers in it for the $$$, not the customer. 

[chet]

The Forestry Forum will not permit the posting of any printed material that may violate copyrite laws.

[beenthere]

A very clear statement in all of my Stihl manuals.

"This instruction manual is protected by copyright. All rights reserved, especially the rights to reproduce, translate and process with electronic systems."

As to the "right to maintain" law, I believe that is about corporations making customers return equipment (cars, tractors, machinery, etc. ) to the dealer for any work, service, maintenance, etc. It's a fine line. Likely prompted by all of the computerized equipment and myriad of sensors that can get messed with and making repair difficult if not impossible. A catch 22 for sure. Don't think it will allow publishing manuals on the Forestry Forum.  ;)

[charles mann]

A very clear statement in all of my Stihl manuals.

"This instruction manual is protected by copyright. All rights reserved, especially the rights to reproduce, translate and process with electronic systems."

As to the "right to maintain" law, I believe that is about corporations making customers return equipment (cars, tractors, machinery, etc. ) to the dealer for any work, service, maintenance, etc. It's a fine line. Likely prompted by all of the computerized equipment and myriad of sensors that can get messed with and making repair difficult if not impossible. A catch 22 for sure. Don't think it will allow publishing manuals on the Forestry Forum.  ;)

I didnt see the all rights reserved. Granted i didnt go page by page, but i did start at the first page and went through 10 pages. I'll double check. It might not be on the same page, if it isnt same saw, but could you point me to the page with said copyright verbiage? 
If its in one stihl manual, im sure its in all. 
So much for helping others work on the tools they own, with appropriate manuals. 
After my last run in with incompetent svc/dealer personnel, i took upon myself to obtain the required support manual so i can do my own troubleshooting, parts ordering (through another dealer) and maintenance. Digging into manuals for grins and other folks issues has taught me a lot about my saw. 
The right maintain news doc and a couple articles referenced costly down time due to svc techs not being able to get to the equipment due to prior svc appointments with other customers, along with "cornering the market" on electronic/gps IT tech software updates and or hardware replacement. 
Im sure return to the dealer for maint was another reason, but wasnt covered on the articles doc vids i read/watched, but would stand to reason as well. The recovering the equip from the field, load and haul to a dealer can get very costly, to include lost crops from added down time. 

[Ianab]

Charles, I do understand what you are trying to achieve, and would be in general support, but Copyright doesn't work that way.  A book doesn't even have to state it's copyrighted (although most do), for laws to apply. 

Right to repair is a whole different ball game. That's more about actually having access to manuals and parts. Even if Stihl started giving away service manuals to comply with a new law, they would still be Copyright, They could for example put PDFs on their web page, and grant you permission to download a copy, but it's still THEIR material. Unless they took the step to waive those rights and declare the material Public Domain. This happens with Govt produced material all the time, and they specifically say it's Public Domain and you are free to copy and distribute it. 

But if you don't KNOW the status, best to assume it IS Copyright, not the other way round. 

[kantuckid]

FWIW: I can and have downloaded Branson tractor factory repair manuals on Tractorbynet for my 2021 Branson 4820R tractor. They have many brands available there, FWIW and the downloads come from dealers.  I don't recall what brands of chainsaw manuals are available on the web but feel certain there are some.
 
Re., this general subject: Many manufacturers no longer even provide a print owners manual with a tool- you download them off the web via inf that comes with the tool. And they also so provide links to those who need one. 
Maybe boils down to which companies give a hoot as suggested already? 

Might be a larger problem that many manuals are mostly lawyer crap none of us read and the meat of a manual tends toward being un-useful in the end.
Seems their afraid we might repair our own stuff.  ;D 

I have one now for a Lifan engine that's got so little info it isn't worth my printers ink! How much oil was the larger goodie I found... :D
Then there's the language thing that makes for no comprende of what's there.
 My Kioti tractor manuals were far better than my Branson manuals for one reason-they obviously hired skilled, English speaking, technical writers & mechanics to write them. But that's another subject...

My middle brother built a FT business from his hobby of collecting cameras.
 Over time he became aware that camera manuals were no longer copyright protected and he began to accumulate print manuals aggressively and his web company, "camera manuals .com" (or something like that) was born. I recall a row of file cabinets all full of print manuals. He grew to become the #1 camera manual source in the world, passing up another guy. He had a home office with a huge commercial printer and sold scads of them to collectors & users.
 He's gone now and his business model died out over time as manuals became web available free to anyone with web access. 

[Old Greenhorn]

 Of course this is a nice idea in general, but the copyright issue is a show stopper. I have found that sometimes, if you can't raise the bridge to solve a problem, you can often lower the river.
 What I mean is, a LOT of these manuals can be found online. The old ones are the most common and not protected. But somehow, whether through proper legal agreement or otherwise these manuals ARE available online on various websites already.
 To test this theory, I searched for a shop manual for a Husky 562 which is a relatively newer model and found it. The site tried to sell me a subscription, but I clicked on a page anyway just to see and wound up flipping through the complete shop manual. Nobody is more surprised than me. The issue is finding these and I have spent hours searching for a manual that is NLA or parts breakdowns. Once I find it, I print it and have a copy in the shop. (I'm an analog guy and NEED that book on the bench as I work.)

 So, while it is clear that none of us would intentionally put copyrighted material either here or on our own websites. I see no reason why putting a link up to the desired manual that takes you to an assumedly legal digital copy would cause any issues, legal or otherwise. If there is an illegal posting of a manual on one of those sites, the lawyers will go after that site anyway, not the folks who go and view it. I would find those links just as helpful and time saving as having the actual manual. It's just one more click.

 Anyway, that's just a different thought on the subject

[charles mann]

Of course this is a nice idea in general, but the copyright issue is a show stopper. I have found that sometimes, if you can't raise the bridge to solve a problem, you can often lower the river.
What I mean is, a LOT of these manuals can be found online. The old ones are the most common and not protected. But somehow, whether through proper legal agreement or otherwise these manuals ARE available online on various websites already.
To test this theory, I searched for a shop manual for a Husky 562 which is a relatively newer model and found it. The site tried to sell me a subscription, but I clicked on a page anyway just to see and wound up flipping through the complete shop manual. Nobody is more surprised than me. The issue is finding these and I have spent hours searching for a manual that is NLA or parts breakdowns. Once I find it, I print it and have a copy in the shop. (I'm an analog guy and NEED that book on the bench as I work.)

So, while it is clear that none of us would intentionally put copyrighted material either here or on our own websites. I see no reason why putting a link up to the desired manual that takes you to an assumedly legal digital copy would cause any issues, legal or otherwise. If there is an illegal posting of a manual on one of those sites, the lawyers will go after that site anyway, not the folks who go and view it. I would find those links just as helpful and time saving as having the actual manual. It's just one more click.

Anyway, that's just a different thought on the subject

I too prefer having a printed copy of the task. Be it a helicopter, my 936A2, or one of dodges. I print the pages related to the task/s and put them in document protectors to keep the clean from my greasy paws. 
A link with different manufacturer manuals would be a great substitute and take up less space. 

[Real1shepherd]

That 'right to repair' issue raised its ugly head because John Deere was making everything dealer proprietary......a company that traditionally, if you wanted to work on your equipment, you could and get the parts and manuals you wanted.

Nothing in the world could explain that sudden reversal of policy other then a bunch of bean counters who were trying to eek out every last penny from their customers.

The copyright issue is real.....you'll even find printers that won't reproduce logo stickers for chainsaws and other equipment because they don't want to take the chance of violating copyright or TM laws.

Kevin

[Real1shepherd]

Of course this is a nice idea in general, but the copyright issue is a show stopper. I have found that sometimes, if you can't raise the bridge to solve a problem, you can often lower the river.
What I mean is, a LOT of these manuals can be found online. The old ones are the most common and not protected. But somehow, whether through proper legal agreement or otherwise these manuals ARE available online on various websites already.
To test this theory, I searched for a shop manual for a Husky 562 which is a relatively newer model and found it. The site tried to sell me a subscription, but I clicked on a page anyway just to see and wound up flipping through the complete shop manual. Nobody is more surprised than me. The issue is finding these and I have spent hours searching for a manual that is NLA or parts breakdowns. Once I find it, I print it and have a copy in the shop. (I'm an analog guy and NEED that book on the bench as I work.)

So, while it is clear that none of us would intentionally put copyrighted material either here or on our own websites. I see no reason why putting a link up to the desired manual that takes you to an assumedly legal digital copy would cause any issues, legal or otherwise. If there is an illegal posting of a manual on one of those sites, the lawyers will go after that site anyway, not the folks who go and view it. I would find those links just as helpful and time saving as having the actual manual. It's just one more click.

Anyway, that's just a different thought on the subject

Good points. I don't think it would be 'illegal' to post links where you can download FSM's etc. Especially if the links are provided by the company. Another bean counter driven thing;'Let's just put the manual online and link the customer to it. Why go to the expense to print out manuals and make sure they go with the equipment?'

The better companies do both;send a manual out with the equipment and also a link if you lose yours or buy the item second hand. Bottom feeders have been trying to sell the Husky 2100 Workshop Manual in PDF form for decades now. Even though the manual was put online for all.

There's even a guy that uses a print shop where he puts orange stock on the front and rear covers and reprints Husky manuals from PDF copies. And it looks like a copy of a copy. He even swindled me once.....

Kevin

[Real1shepherd]

I too prefer having a printed copy of the task. Be it a helicopter, my 936A2, or one of dodges. I print the pages related to the task/s and put them in document protectors to keep the clean from my greasy paws.
A link with different manufacturer manuals would be a great substitute and take up less space.

That's the only thing I like about 'digital' copies;print out the section you need, give it hell, get it nice & greasy and then throw away when finished.

Kevin

[Real1shepherd]

.......Might be a larger problem that many manuals are mostly lawyer crap none of us read and the meat of a manual tends toward being un-useful in the end.
Seems their afraid we might repair our own stuff.  ;D.......

I have both....old original chainsaw manuals and then some of the newer Husky & Jonsered manuals. The newer ones are almost totally full of how not to hurt yourself with a power tool. The actual meat of the manual....the part about the actual saw's features is almost generic. I sure wouldn't be kicking any doors down to get a hold of them....mostly useless.

The ONLY thing I got out of my Jonsered 2094 manual was the location of the oiler adjustment screw.

Even the newer FSM's assume you have all factory tools and are trained.....so they give out as few tips & tricks as possible.

Kevin

[John Mc]

Just added a correction in my earlier post which mentioned to just look for the copyright notice. For quite some time now (decades), copyright of a publication has been automatic in the US and many other countries.

A company or individual may publish something and make it freely available (either online or as a physical copy) without relinquishing the copyright. You'll often find chainsaw owners manuals available this way. It's more rare to find a true service manual published this way.

I've had some luck getting permission from an author/creator to pot a copy of their work.

One that comes to mind here on the Forestry Forum was a copy of a table someone had made of the BTU content of various firewood species. Since the link to that chart on their website seemed to change from time to time, they gave me permission to post a PDF of the chart as long as I included it as they published it (including company name and website).

I also got permission from Briggs & Stratton years ago to publish a partial page of the service manual for their 16 HP Vanguard engine on a website dedicated to an antique ATV. Once I explained that the particular information of interest was to facilitate owners retrofitting this engine into their old machines, and that it was just a small section referring to a very specific modification (modifying the governor for a lower idle speed), they were happy to give permission - I guess because they figured it might help them sell a few engines.

So it is possible to get permission sometimes, even from large corporations. I imagine it would be more difficult to get permission to legally post a copy of a service manual that they are otherwise selling, or which is normally available only to dealers.

[Ianab]

If you break enough Copyright the Feds do actually get interested. 

Feds arrest Russians accused of running the largest pirated e-book library | Ars Technica

But they really only go after the big fish. Those folks had 11 million books online and were charging for access. They just got too big to ignore, and made the mistake of visiting a country that has an extradition treaty with the US. Oops.

A site like this would probably initially get a "Nastygram"  from some lawyer, and we don't need the hassle of that. 

Now sometimes we have the situation where a small part of a manual may be posted, to demonstrate how something is assembled or identify a part. This "probably" falls under the Fair Use rules, which is a legal but vaguely defined term.  : 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_States#Fair_use

So, not for profit, technical info, small section, no real harm to the Copyright holder means you can generally claim "Fair Use". It would probably apply to the page from the B&S manual John refers to, but having permission to reproduce that section removes all uncertainty, so is even better.

[Real1shepherd]

So just to be clear as mud....:D

Say someone has a question about setting the timing on a Jonsereds 801/80/90. I have the original Service Manual. I scan the page or two that has the instructions on setting the timing.....am I violating anything by posting those pages?

Kevin

[Ianab]

The way I read things, you can claim "Fair Use", but there is no hard and fast rules about that. just some vague things about "fair". But it seems it would pass the test. 

That's how the Internet is full of Meme and gif images that could technically be copyright. But one frame from LOTR with Boromir saying "One does not simply...." gets a pass because it's "fair use"

If in doubt, add a picture of Boromir, and the text "One does not simply...  guess thy timing, first one must follow thus procedure."    Now you have added Satire, which is the other defence against Copyright.  :D



 

[Spike60]

Beyond the copyright debate..........Sooner or later pinned topics take up 1/2 or more of a page like this and become annoying clutter. What we are used to being the top of the page becomes the bottom. :(

[beenthere]

So just to be clear as mud....:D

Say someone has a question about setting the timing on a Jonsereds 801/80/90. I have the original Service Manual. I scan the page or two that has the instructions on setting the timing.....am I violating anything by posting those pages?

Kevin

Send that copy to them in a PM. Or PM them and ask for their email address. 
The FF doesn't need someone like Stihl corp trying to make an example of some fringe use of the copyright protection laws. Or take a photo of the important section and post the photo. Less risky, I would think. 

[charles mann]

So just to be clear as mud....:D

Say someone has a question about setting the timing on a Jonsereds 801/80/90. I have the original Service Manual. I scan the page or two that has the instructions on setting the timing.....am I violating anything by posting those pages?

Kevin

Send that copy to them in a PM. Or PM them and ask for their email address.
The FF doesn't need someone like Stihl corp trying to make an example of some fringe use of the copyright protection laws. Or take a photo of the important section and post the photo. Less risky, I would think.

I second PMing an individual with a requested task from the maint manual or a parts diagram to clarify parts stacks up.